Up First from NPR - The Poetic Wealth of Nikki Giovanni

Episode Date: December 15, 2024

The legendary African American poet Nikki Giovanni passed away this week at the age of 81. Since fiercely coming onto the scene during the Black Power movement of the 1960s, Giovanni established a rich and powerful literary legacy. Her work often celebrated the power of Black joy contained within the fight for civil rights by reminding readers that "Black love is Black wealth".Today on the show, we feature a conversation between Rachel Martin, host of NPR's Wild Card, and Nikki Giovanni from earlier this year.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

I'm Ayesha Roscoe and this is a Sunday Story from Up First. I always like summer best. You can eat fresh corn from daddy's garden and okra and greens and cabbage, and lots of barbecue and buttermilk and homemade ice cream at the church picnic. These are the words of the great African-American poet, Nikki Giovanni from her poem, Knoxville, Tennessee. She died earlier this week at the age of 81. Nikki Giovanni was called many things,

the poet of the black revolution, activists, spoken word of the Black Revolution, activist, spoken word artist, cultural icon, children's book author, professor, Christian, radiant voice of Black joy and struggle. To me, she was also an unapologetic truth teller and some of her words and poems I could feel them at a molecular level. That's how much I related to them. Giovanni grew up with an alcoholic abusive father in a house without indoor plumbing and while she was never afraid to explore those hardships in her poetry, she

also celebrated what was beautiful about community, food, and family. Earlier this year, my colleague and host of the podcast, Wildcard, Rachel Martin, spoke to Nikki Giovanni. Today, we bring you this incredible conversation. Do you think about the legacy that you will leave behind? No. Wow, I'm surprised by that answer. Huh. No, because it gets you caught up in your life and that's not what you're looking

for. Your life is not about your life. Your life is about your duty. I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wild Card, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card one through three. Questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped them. My guest this week is poet Nikki Giovanni.

When you look at the stars and then you think about the other life forms, you think well there is something else. I can't quit now. There is something else. There are so many words I could use to describe my guest today. Poet, revolutionary, queer icon, feminist, space enthusiast, mother and grandmother, legend. Nikki Giovanni is all those things. But she is also a woman who figured out really early that she didn't have to apologize to anyone for who she was or for what she wanted from her life. She can write poems that look directly at all the pain and hatred in the world, and she can write children's books about feeling safe and loved. She can also conjure what it will look like when humans set up shop on Mars and black women lead the way. Nikki Giovanni has just been doing it her own way all along, and writing it down so

the rest of us can start to see beyond ourselves and whatever hard thing we happen to be stuck in at any particular moment. Nikki Giovanni, welcome to Wild Card. I'm so glad you're here. Oh, thanks, Rachel. I'm glad to be here. So I understand you turned 81 on June 7th, am I right? 81.

I couldn't believe, I can't believe it. You know, I used to say all the time, you know, I really liked old age. It was a good idea, But 80 really kicked my butt. And I'm hoping that 81 is a lot better. I just got out of the hospital about a week ago. I was just, I'm just old. And I was dehydrated and I had to go to London twice. And I like London, but flying back and forth is, I know, I could have swim, you know, I could have swum.

I would have been better off. There you go. There you go. So are you a person who enjoys a good birthday party? Did you have one? I am not and I did. I just have... You know, parties are a work no matter what anybody says, but we played card, we played bidwis,

I have a bidwis group. And we played- I don't know what that is. That's a card game? It's like bridge only for more intelligence. If you do say so yourself. We're going to get letters on that one. And my dear friend whom I love so much, Javon Jackson came. And Javon didn't go anyplace without his saxophone.

So he plays sax, he plays dinner sax. And so that was very nice because there was no work. I didn't have to do. And I mean... That sounds like a good birthday. Yeah. I was glad to be out of the hospital and I was glad to be with friends. And I didn't have to get dressed.

I did shower, but I didn't have to be dressed. I get it. I get it. I'm so glad you're out of the hospital. I'm glad that you that you're doing better. Are you a game person? What do you think about this? Oh, I love games. You do? Oh sure the weakest link Jeopardy, the wall. Okay. All right. I'm into it. So let me explain how this is going to go. Okay? Okay.

I've got a deck of cards in front of me and each one has a question on it that I would love for you to answer. I'm going to hold up only three cards at a time and then you, Nikki, are going to choose one at random to answer. Okay? There are two rules. You get one skip. If you use your skip, I will swap in another question from the deck. Okay? And rule number two, you get one flip.

So you could put me on the spot and ask me to answer one of the questions before you do. And we're breaking it up into three rounds. Okay? Memories, insights, and beliefs with a few questions in each round. And because it's a game, there's a prize when you make it to the end. Ginger cookies. Ginger cookie. How did you know? Oh, I wish I'd made you fresh ginger cookies. I love ginger cookies. Soft kind or crispy? Soft.

Soft. Always soft. Like my grandmother. It's not ginger cookies. I should just tell you right now so you can emotionally prepare. I'm leaving. I'll see you later. Okay. So this is the memories round. Three cards to choose from. One, two, or three? Of course, two. Of course two. You said that like everybody knows it's two. It's the best number.

Well, I'm a baby sister, so I'm number two. Ah, I get it. Okay. Well, I'm a baby sister, so I'm number two. I get it. Were you ever obsessed with a particular cosmic question as a kid? Yes, I wanted to know why Mars was red. And my obsession was that there was a war on Mars and that they had developed atomic energy so that Mars burned itself up. And as I lay in bed for most of my life actually to look out the window, I have seen Mars, which is why I

talk about it a lot. And I would like to go to Mars because I think that as a black woman, my sisters and I could build a community. And I love that you have planted that idea in our collective consciousness and have written a lot about it. When did Mars come into your head? Do you remember? Like as a kid? Like how did you even, I didn't think about Mars as a kid. How did you, how did it capture your imagination? I'm a baby sister. I shared a bedroom with my big sister. She wanted the bed by the wall. I don't know why, but that gave me the bed by the window. And so I would look out the window and watch the stars.

And the stars haven't changed. So you have to ask yourself, what are they telling us? What am I learning? Did fixing your gaze upward make you feel safer? I mean, you had a tough home life. You've talked and written a lot about that. Did thinking about the planets, the cosmos, the universe, did that help you escape whatever was going on at home? Did that help you escape the whatever was going on at home? Well, my parents had what I would call in nice words troubled marriage. And what space let me know is that this could not be the end.

And thank God I did have a grandmother. And I went ultimately to live with my grandmother. But when you start to look at the stars and then you think about the other life forms and you think, well, there is something else that I can't quit now, there is something else. Three new cards, okay, same drill. You pick one, two, or three.

Well, I guess I should take one. Okay. Let's do one. What's something you thought was normal about your childhood that you now realize was unusual? Probably the most unusual thing about my childhood was that I recognized that my parents' marriage was not my business because it was unpleasant. Saturday night at 11 o'clock I was listening to my father beat my mother. So that's unpleasant. But you also recognize it has nothing to do with

you. It was none of my business and I didn't believe Ozzie and Harriet or father knows best. I didn't believe any of that. I still don't think that there's such a thing as a happy family. Because that was your norm. So you assumed that that all families to some degree were broken in that way. Yeah, they're crazy. And so the best thing you can do, sometimes you need to walk away. You need to find friends and get rid of the family, because the family drives you crazy. Just because you happen to be born

doesn't make them kin to you. You make your own families, what I guess I'm saying. I recommend dogs. But they're faithful, they're intelligent, and they always love you. You walk into the house, the dog is always happy to see you. We've got to take a quick break, but when we come back, I ask Nikki if she is afraid of anything, and her answer may surprise you. app today or visit wise.com, T's and C's apply. This message comes from BetterHelp, working to make therapy more convenient, flexible, and affordable. BetterHelp is

committed to helping people manage their well-being and mental health through therapy. Visit betterhelp.com slash NPR for 10% off your first month. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection Hotels, offering over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Hands selected for their inherent craft, each hotel tells its own unique story through distinctive design and immersive experiences, from medieval falconry to volcanic wine tasting. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of over 30 hotel brands around the world. Now we move into the second round, the insights round. This is stuff you're learning now, stuff you're working through now.

Okay, three new cards, one, two, or three. Remember, you have a skip and a flip. You don't have to use them. One, two, or three. Well, let's go for two again. Okay. What emotion do you understand better than all the others? Patience. I'm incredibly patient. It takes a lot to really push me. Huh. Yeah. Where does that come from? Well, I don't know. I'm the baby sister of two. So that teaches you, one, you're always watching your big sister because they're always so wonderful. They're prettier, they're more intelligent, everything.

In your mind, yes. And so you always, you know, and you want to say, well, one day I'll grow up or whatever. But most of my friends are older. I have very few friends who are my age. I'm 80, we were talking, I'm 81. Right, it's a long life already, Nikki, 81. And most of your friends are older than that. Some good longevity.

Well, I'm hoping that Aunt Sarah, who was my mother's great aunt, but and nobody liked Sarah, by the way, she was a despicable person, but she lived to be 100. So I do want that dream that lets you live to be 100. I think it'd be interesting to see what's happening at 100. My kids asked me that recently, if I wanted to, you know, not just to a hundred, but like, would I want to live forever? And then, you know, that's an interesting question to talk about with kids and how having a finite end to life sometimes creates appreciation because you think things are going to end, you know? But I said I would, I I said I would do it with some caveats. I just want my health. I want my body to still work. I don't want things falling apart on me.

Things are going to fall apart. And so that's, again, one of the things that you can hear in my breathing and it's because of the pneumonia. You can hear in my breathing, it's because of the pneumonia. And that'll go away, this will get well. But I'm not afraid of, you know, being blind. I have a friend who's losing her sight. And it makes her very uncomfortable. What an opportunity to now see the world in a different way. I mean at look at Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder

So you say well they couldn't see but look at what they created. So obviously they saw something and I'm not afraid As I said 80 kicked my butt. I mean I if it could be wrong with me. It was wrong with me And I was thinking, okay, well, you know, I had cancer, I had lung cancer, and I had breast cancer. And I said, whatever it happens, I don't want to read, I don't want to be sitting, well, I'll be sitting in hell, because I don't think I'm going to heaven. But I don't want to be sitting in hell. And they say she fought cancer for, you know, 20 years. I'm not fighting any disease. I'm learning to live with it. And I want the disease to live with me. So every morning that I wake up, me and cancer, we're in good shape. And I say, well, let's take a shower.

Go about our day. Let's do our life. Yeah. And one day we won't. And then that means that I'll be transitioned. I'll be in another place. And that's what, you know, I'm talking about my grandmother, but that's what I think about, about grandmother, about Sister Althea, who was my eighth grade teacher and I loved her so much. But I don't think that they're not dead because they will never be forgotten for me. And I find myself if I'm not careful and sometimes even if I am talking to them or

they're talking to me, you know, you're never alone when you have somebody like that around you. Yeah. Are you afraid of anything? Well, I'm very cautious around ostrich when I was on, you know... Nikki, what are you talking about? Ostriches? You're afraid of ostriches?

Well, yeah. You ever been on safari? They are mean. No. Nikki, what are you talking about? Well, they are. Ostriches? You're afraid of ostriches? Well, yeah. You ever been on safari? They are mean. No, they are mean, and that kick will kill you. Ask a lion if he had to put a lion against an ostrich. The lion is gone.

That's why you don't see lions. That was just like not where I thought we were going to go. Oh. No, I like it. I like it. I mean, it's real. don't see lions. That was just like not where I thought we were going to go. No, I like it. I like it. I mean, it's real. That is your fear, the ostrich. You have to be very careful around them. I'm not afraid of lions because lions are an intelligent being that unless you're threatening them, they're not going to bother you. Right. But the only ostriches I've had in relation, you know, it's been unpleasant. And I'm lucky that they didn't get to me or they would have killed Thomas

and my son and I on Sephora. You have to be careful around ostriches. People need to know that. That is a good and unexpected public service announcement that you have provided, Nikki Giovanni. Okay. Next question. Three more cards. One, two, or three?

Okay. Let's do three. Three. In what ways do you choose to find joy? Cooking. Cooking. I love to cook. Do you?

I really do. I cooked with my grandmother. I cooked with my grandmother. I cooked with my grandmother. I cooked with my grandmother. I cooked with my grandmother. I cooked with my grandmother. I cooked with my grandmother. I cooked with my grandmother. I cooked with my grandmother. I cooked with my grandmother. What do you choose to find joy? Cooking. Cooking. I love to cook.

Do you? I really do. I cooked with my grandmother. My mother could cook, but not as well as my grandmother. I didn't cook with mommy. I watched mommy cook, but I cooked with grandmother. I would be the one. She used to be the one.

I hope nobody's upset but you know you go and get the chicken we lived in Knoxville and so you know Tennessee yeah yeah you can go to chicken chicken was unfortunately for the chicken alive and so grandmother would ring its neck and then I would be the one to have to pluck it and I learned to pluck the chicken Yeah, but also learned to cook chitlins because I learned to turn the Chitlins or intestines. Yeah, I learned. Yeah turn them inside out and pull the fat out, but I also learned to break String beans and to do when you do that. You want to pull the string out. So I love every every time I'm cooking something I'm thinking about grandmother and how she did

it and what... Oh, I love that. It's like she's with me. Yeah. It's like, you know, but I do, it always makes me happy. And I like other people's cooking sometimes, but mostly if I have my way, I do my own. You said that sometimes you catch yourself, or maybe it's not catching yourself, just sometimes you do just talk out loud it's not catching yourself, just sometimes

you do just talk out loud to your mom or your grandmother. Does it happen when you're cooking? I don't know if I'm talking out loud so much as remembering. You know, and you go and I made some lamb chops that I have to tell you were incredible. And I was trying to remember what it was that grandmother did. It was grandmother's and I remembered, oh, it was she put a little cinnamon. And so I put a little cinnamon and a little apple vinegar. Yes. Oh, God, they were so good. Oh, you know, and I didn't I don't think I said aloud to grandmother, you know, look what I've done. But you know, it's one of those like I didn't share. I have people. You just did it for yourself.

I didn't. You didn't invite people. They should go get somebody else. If they're hungry, go to Wendy's. We've got another quick break, but when we come back, Nikki tells me about her belief system. Well, I am, and I almost hate to use this word because there's so many fools out there, but I am a Christian. It's been a great year for TV, movies, and music, and we are highlighting the best of

the best. We're talking about our favorite moments of the year, including some of the best pop culture you might have missed. Listen now to the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast from NPR. Lakshmi Singh I'm Lakshmi Singh. Public radio reminds us of our shared humanity, even at our darkest hours, like with a story of an artist couple who make beautiful spaces for communities to grieve. David L. We found that people will usually stop by and just feel a little bit more open and willing to talk and share. Help us make room for light in the dark. Give before the end of the year at donate.npr.org.

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Beliefs. One, two, three. Okay, three. Three. Do you think about the legacy that you will leave behind? No. Wow, I'm surprised by that answer. No, because it gets you caught up in your life and that's not what you're...

Your life is not about your life. Your life is about your duty. And so, no, I don't think about it, you know. Have you seen people get too caught up in preemptively analyzing their legacy? Oh, I've seen a lot. As I said, I know a lot of famous people and there. Oh, you know, I wonder what my stamp would look like. I'll be dead. No, I'm serious. So they did not say that to you?

Yeah. Oh, wow. And so you just look, no, no, I'm just glad when me and cancer wake up. and now when me and cancer and pneumonia wake up. And one day we won't. And I don't know, maybe I'll be sad, maybe not, I don't know. It's interesting. My friend Toni Morrison, whom I do and still do love so very much, and my favorite Toni Morrison, among other things, is Sula.

And when Sula is dying, she says, oh, wait till I tell Nell, because Nell is her best friend. And she's, wait till I tell Nell. It doesn't hurt. Wait till I tell Nell. Let me ask this question a different way then, though. I get what you're saying, that you don't want to get wrapped up in your ego. You don't want to think about, you know, whoa, I'm so important. People are going to remember me. What are they going to think about, you know, whoa, I'm so important. People are gonna remember me. What are they gonna write on my tombstone? What are they gonna,

what all the great accolades are gonna give me? But are there moments when you think back on your life and allow yourself moments to feel proud? Oh, there are moments that I feel proud because I've worked hard. And I think the word that means, as you probably also have heard in this conversation, a lot to me is duty. And when I went to the opening of the African American Museum in D.C., you go around and

around. I certainly recommend anybody doing it. And I had forgotten because a lot of those things I don't handle and I'm not interested in. I forgot we gave permission to use my poetry and we gave permission to use my language. It's not something, if you start paying attention to that, you'd be crazy. And when I turned to the right, there was a photograph of me. And I just automatically, and it brings tears to my eyes, I automatically just turn to over

my shoulder to my left to say, look grandmother, I did my duty. And yeah, I and it still amazes me that I did, I mean I just, it's like she was there, I did my duty. And that's what matters to me. That's what matters to me. That's beautiful. This is the last one. Okay. Last question. One, two, or three.

Let's go two again. What belief helps you make sense of the world. Well, I am, and I almost hate to use this word because there are so many fools out there, but I am a Christian, and I think Jesus is a really interesting guy. I really am fascinated by the way he conducted his life. And I think 90% of all black women you would run into are Christians. We believe that he may not come, there's an expression that black women have, and I share that expression.

He may not come when you call, but He always comes on time. So, we've learned to wait on the Lord. And I think that that's the most important thing. Pete Do you pray? Mary Ann Oh, no, no, none of that. No, no. Pete So, how does that – Mary Ann I tell them, go to church. Pete Don't go to church, don't pray, but there's still something about Jesus, the Trinity God, a Christian God who you're into.

Well, he's a very interesting guy. And of course, when he did come from the... There are lots of interesting guys, Nikki, but like... No, there are not. Let's face that one. But you know, when he came out of the tomb, he went to Mary Magdalene. So the first thing he went to was a black woman. So you have to appreciate that.

And I think that what he said to her was, you know, I've got to go, I've got things to do, but you call me. I'll be there. But just wait on the Lord. And all of the black women I know believe that. and it made sense to me, you may as well, He'll come when you call. That's why I have patience. No question about it. You want the Lord to do something. But I'm not asking for lottery numbers. asking for lottery numbers. And I'm not asking for, oh please, none of that. Please let me get well. I'm worried about this cancer. I didn't ask for any of that because that's

a foolish thing to ask for. What you're asking for is let me continue my life of duty with grace. And that's all. If I can gracefully do what I have to do, I'm happy. Do you think there's such a thing as heaven, Nikki? Mm-hmm. There's a heaven and my grandmother's sitting up there. I'm going to hell because I hate my father and I'm going to sit down and tell him why. But I'm sure grandmother and mommy will talk to Jesus or God, whoever's there, let her come up and visit. And everybody knows I like champagne, so I'm sure they'll have a glass of champagne. And we'll sit there and talk.

Well, you gotta go now. You've been here for two days. Do you actually think that? What do you actually think? It doesn't matter what I actually think. It doesn't matter. What matters is what gets me through the next day. Well, you won the game, Nikki.

So the prize, alas, is not ginger cookies. Oh. I know. It is a trip in our memory time machine. So as your prize, you get to revisit one moment from your past that you would not change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger a little longer in. What moment do you choose?... ... ...

That's, that's, uh, not only hard, but it's, uh, personal. And so, I know what I would, but it's none of your business. Hmm. Are you, I want you to be in it now though.

Can you go there now in your mind? I go there, I go there quite a bit. You do, you don't need me to take you there. Yeah, I haven't been well right now. I'm getting better, but I haven't been well. And so I stay in that spot right now and it works. My old ladies come through. You know, no matter what's going on, my old ladies are,

I mean, I'm in the hospital. To me, I love hospitals because they're grandmothers, you know, and they come in the morning and they say, how's my baby doing today? But it's like all of these, not all, but a couple of old ladies that I've really loved and they're right there. You know, you'll be alright. Don't worry about it. Well, you don't owe me anything. You don't have to take me to your moment, but I'm glad that you can go there easily these days.

Yeah, they're with me, yeah. Yeah. Well, it was my great pleasure to get to talk with you. Thank you so much for doing this. Oh, thank you. I hope I didn't sound too crazy, but life is a good idea. And wait till you get to be 70. You're going to love it.

Nikki Giovanni, poet, author, revolutionary, amazing human. Thank you so much for talking with me. Thank you. If you want to hear more from Nikki Giovanni, we've got a bonus question you can hear by signing up for Wild Card Plus. I asked her what her thoughts are on marriage. Well, first of all, it takes patience, of which I have a lot. And secondly, it's a good tax write-off, by the way. Oh, Nikki! You'll also hear Ted Danson talk about adjusting to the world of adult responsibility, and you'll hear my reflections on how those conversations affected me personally.

Wildcard Plus is the best way to support our show and support public radio at the same time. Go to plus.npr.org slash wildcard to join today. Make sure to follow NPR's wildcard podcast wherever you listen. This episode of wildcard was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact checked by Barclay Walsh and mastered by Robert Rodriguez. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo, Justine Yan, Jenny Schmidt, and Liana Simstrom. I'm Ayesha Roscoe and this is a Sunday Story from Up First. We'll be back tomorrow with all the news

you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.