Upgrade - 101: It Works Great in California

Episode Date: August 8, 2016

This week we discuss Fast Company’s visit to the Apple cafeteria, Mark Gurman’s reappearance as an Apple rumor expert, and Recode’s Apple TV guide rumors, plus Myke reviews the new version of Pocket Casts.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode number 101 today's show is brought to you by hover mac weldon and ero my name is mike curly i am joined by jason snell it's a binary episode 101 computers can understand us. Robots will understand this episode. Do you have any idea what that means for a computer? 1-0-1? What that sequence means? I, no, I don't speak binary.

You don't speak computer? Yeah. Hmm. I'm looking it up now. I'm googling binary. Well, it depends on what the thing is. I mean, you know, it's a 1 and a 0 and a a one i don't know if it depends on what you translate that into yeah i don't understand these things john syracuse or if he's out there he's very upset at me right now

hexadecimal and no it's just binary anyway one on one it's also an introductory class at your uh at your undergraduate uh college or university when it's upgrade 101 welcome this is the first uh in a series of courses about upgrading uh next semester will be upgrade 102 where we will uh downgrade more upgrading interesting well spoilers for upgrade 102 and uh it's also you were pointing out right before we started it's also george orwell reminds us this is where you put the bad things in room 101 so you can make up your own mind dear listeners whether this is an introductory or course or where we put all the bad things for the week or if you're a robot i want to start off today's episode with a little bit of follow-up and a clarification

on something that i spoke about last week. When we were talking about TV stuff, I referenced an article that I'd seen, some headlines that I'd seen about Dr. Dre, that he was arrested. A few listeners wrote in to me to let me know that the headlines that I'd seen and the articles that I'd seen were kind of widely misreported. And I've been sent in some other stuff. I'm going to include a link in the show notes to the New York Daily News. And basically, I want to give a quick rundown as to what happened. So there was some stories that have been put out from the Hollywood Reporter and stuff that said that Dre had been arrested for having a gun outside.

But it turns out that this all was kind of false. And it was all of these stories were predicated on the account that the accuser gave, as opposed to using any of the facts from the police reports. So this guy who made these accusations against Dre had blocked his driveway with his car, and Dre asked him to move the car and then called the police after the guy started acting aggressively. This guy then started shouting that Dre was reaching for a gun when he was taking his phone out of his pocket and then was videoing the guy as he was kind of acting quite aggressively the police came, they cuffed Dre because he was accused of having a gun, they spoke to him, they searched him

everything was fine, he wasn't arrested he was let on his way, the story was totally bogus and I was suckered in and I've learned a lesson about repeating headlines there you go I just wanted to follow up because it was so wrong and it was so bad for me to just say it uh that i wanted to to follow up because it was just flatly incorrect well done so noted so there you go so let's uh let's move on with

our follow-up this week we'll put that one in Room 101. Yeah, we can do that. That's a really good idea. That's the Room 101 part of the show. Some things. This is actually part of the lesson section, getting images from messages on iOS. Eddie wrote in an Ask Upgrade last week to find out if we knew any way to export the messages, for the images and the media from inside the messagesages app without doing it one at a time,

so opening it and saving it to the camera roll. I have a bunch of solutions here, Jason, so buckle up. Tobias was one of the many people who recommended that on iOS, you can tap and hold on a picture when you're in the details screen of a message when you click into the contact, and it shows you all of the media in that kind of in that view yeah if you tap and hold on that it gives you the ability to select multiple ones you can click more and it lets you select multiple and then export them all but this

is still a little manual right you're still tapping everything to get them out um right ryan wrote in uh and he has written a terminal command to let you get these images from messages on the mac so you can throw this terminal command in and it will make a folder on your desktop and you can do that um ryan is a good guy but hey terminal commands i don't know what i'm doing so i would i wouldn't do this one but it's there it's going to be in the show notes if you want to get it it's in there uh so that's one in the show notes if you want to get it. It's in there. So that's one option. We have another one from Scott.

And Scott, I like this one. Scott recommends, go into your home directory in Finder, click View Options, and click Show Library. So you see the library folder. Then you can create a new smart folder and point it at home directory slash library slash messages slash attachments. Oh, my God, Jason. Yeah, you have to click.

Can you just do this one? Because you obviously understand it inherently more than I do. Okay. This is the Mac. You've got to be logged into your Mac and have these things. That's the challenge, though, because this is stuff that's on your Mac. But you can make a new smart folder, right? So I would say the best thing to do this is to do go from the go menu,

you go to folder or that's command shift G and then you type the little tilde symbol, which is for the home directory, slash library, slash messages, slash attachments. And then boom, you've got the attachments folder open there. So then you do file, new smart folder. It says search, and it's got this Mac highlighted. You click on attachments instead.

And then you do, you click the plus icon that's in the right corner. This is why we do screenshots, Mike. You click the plus. This is screenshot via podcast, not the most efficient format. You click the plus icon, and it gives you a little filter drop down that by default is like name matches something, but you can change that to be kind. And then once you change it to kind, it changes to kind is, and there's a bunch of kind options, one of which is

image. And then at that point, you've got kind is image all is what comes up. You now have a smart folder that is all of the images in your attachments folder and all its subfolders. And if you save that as a new smart folder called, let's say, message attachments, then it'll show up in the sidebar of your dock. And now you've got a folder with, in my case, 835 different media items that are all images saved by messages out into this subfolder. So it works. And in theory, that would be everything, right? Because it downloads the whole thing. So that's a way to do it on the Mac. In theory. Anybody who uses a Mac and an iOS device has had that situation where some of the stuff just doesn't come to some of the devices and it's a little bit inexplicable. Still happens.

My wife, my wife had one the other day that was amazing because she got texts on her Apple watch that didn't come to her iPhone. Yeah, I've had that. How and how is that possible? Because they come from the iPhone to the Apple watch. And yet the iPhone is like, look, I know I showed you a picture on the Apple watch, but I have no idea what you're talking about. And it just doesn't. Yeah, it's baffling. I know I showed you a picture on the Apple Watch, but I have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah, it's baffling. So anyway, theoretically, if you've got a Mac and you leave it on enough that it is syncing with the iMessage service, you could pull all your images out that way. So there you go. There's some insane instructions to follow on a podcast, but we did it anyway. And finally, Ken recommends iExplorer. Apparently it can back up all your messages to text, HTML and PDF like PhoneView can, but it can also back up

attachments or photos only. And I'll put a link to iExplorer in the chat room. Thank you so much to everybody who sent in some suggestions for this and made for some just slightly peculiar follow-up for this week's show.

Mark had some follow-up about Star Trek The Wrath of Khan. Khan! Apparently Montalban's chest was real. He was just built strongly. That's what they say. I've always assumed that, but you

made me question myself when you said, come on. That's not... Never question the Montalban. No, never doubt him. We were talking about the computer graphics for Genesis, the Genesis program, and they were showing computer imagery. Pixar created these, and as soon as Mark said

this, I remember this from Creativity Inc. I'm pretty sure Campbell mentions this in creativity inc but i just hadn't put two and two together yeah and that that is like i said that was um that was the uh first lengthy entirely computer generated sequence in a movie i think that was not even pixar at that point they may still have just been the graphics group at Lucasfilm when they made it but it is that group it is what became Pixar when it spun out

yeah for all intents and purposes it's Pixar now this isn't really follow up as such but it's something that I at least don't have very much to say about this at all but I feel like it must be mentioned this morning as we record this which is the 8th of august 2016 uh fast company published two articles slash interviews with apple personnel

and executives um there's first one and they're written by uh rick tzeli who i believe is one of the people responsible for the Becoming Steve Jobs book. Yep. The first one kind of focuses on Tim Cook's Apple and talking about kind of where they've been and how successful they are and talking about the dips and what could cause that and how amazing services is going to be. But there's kind of, at least for me, absolutely zero information in this article. It just reads like an afterword of the Steve Jobs book than anything else. And as soon as I saw him mention that he wrote that book, I was like, that's why it sounds like this. It's just a story, and all it's doing is just summing things up. There's no information.

The Apple executives were not needed in this story. I don't know how you feel about it but for me the uh the second article the interview with uh bazoma saint john who was the lady who did the fantastic presentation of apple music at wwdc her article is more interesting to me it equally doesn't really reveal anything but it's got more flair to it because it's an interview and i love the way she talks it really puts a smile on my face i found that more enjoyable um i don't know what you think i just feel like great these exist but there's not really any substance to them yeah it's um who knows i don't you know i'm not privy to all the background here but it definitely reads like

a fast company pitched a cover story about apple and they were given some access uh including uh what appears like a fairly brief chat with tim cook and some a conversation with eddie q and a conversation with it looks like a conversation with eddie q and craig federighi the way it's portrayed in the story is sort of like they're talking to Eddie and then Craig walks up and joins them. And so you've got, as a reporter, I think about it as you've got this limited amount of access, but it's very special access. And you got to go to Apple for the day and you use that and kind of weave that all together into a story that is also about people doubting Apple and people not doubting Apple. And there's some context in it that I appreciated. I really liked the fact that when they said people were

complaining about Apple not being as great as they were during that run of the iPod, iPhone, and iPad, that the way that he phrased it was the perception of that time. And then later he talked about how people tend to forget the failures and the G4 Cube comes up, the circular mouse comes up. The rocker. The rocker comes up, right? that because a lot of these stories um are written by people who don't get don't understand the history of apple and fall into those same old traps of um you know saying it's it's the litany we can read it all right it's the steve jobs was great uh he wouldn't this would never have happened if steve jobs were still alive that always comes up uh he had a perfect record now

everything is terrible and when you take a step back, you're like, no, actually he didn't have a perfect record. Everything is not terrible. Apple's doing really, really well. The performance in 2015 was an outlier and Apple is paying for that now, but their, their fundamentals seem pretty good because they're up from 2014, which means there's still the overall track is, is still upward. It just had, they just had a really, really great year that they couldn't match. And that's not proof that they're on the way down. In fact, they seem to not be on the way down. And he makes a lot of those points.

But I just feel like a lot of this could be written without the need to include the executives. That's the power of access, right? Is they got special access to tim cook and eddie q and craig federighi and you want to show it off and you've got photo and you got you got uh uh basma and and uh you got a photo shoot with her and you've got so you've got pictures and you've got access and and you want to do the other thing is you want to do a cover story and you don't know what you're going to get but whatever you get you're going to make it into a cover story and you don't know what you're going to get but whatever you get you're going to make it into a cover story and also the very best photo of craig frederick ever taken is exists in this article where he is completely blue stealing it yeah oh yeah yeah um you can see it in the storytelling

too that um there's a lot of context that's not like you said it's not actually incumbent on any of the interviews it's just context being added added by the writer who knows about this subject matter. And they weave the quotes in from the executives, but they don't say a lot. They say some things. There's some nice bits in there. But I definitely got the sense from a trade perspective as a journalist. I look at it and think, you know, I see what you're doing here. Look at it and think, you know, I see what you're doing here.

You are trying very hard to build this whole structure around not a lot of great original stuff, gives you detail about um you know the atmosphere and what people are wearing and the smell of the food um not that that can't be evocative um but it also can be a red flag that that's all that they've got and so it's like well we don't have because because if it was like tim cook opens his heart about how difficult it's been to follow steve jobs and how he questions every day whether he's making the right decisions and then and then eddie q says what he and he says a little bit of this is like i believe in i believe in tim i have the same sort of thing from tim that i got from steve i mean if they got stuff like that you know how this story would go but they didn't really get that so instead it's like eddie q wears

wears wacky clothing and we're outside in the sun in California smelling the food from Cafe Mac. And he has some stuff to say about sports teams. Yeah. Oh yeah. And they talk about the Warriors a lot, which I also found weird because it dates the story that these interviews are not like interviews done in the last couple of weeks. They're interviews that were done when the NBA playoffs had ended. So that's like, what is that? That's like a month ago now, I think. So, you know, it's fine. I think kudos to them. You know, I interviewed Steve Jobs for Macworld one time, and it took us a year to get him on the phone for five minutes. So I appreciate the fact that they got this access and that I kind of liked the Eddie Q thing was kind of interesting when he talked about Tim and that they, uh, and then, and that, um, I kind of liked the Eddie Q thing was,

was kind of interesting when he, when he talked about Tim and that, you know, that he feels like, although Tim is a different, very different person from Steve, he still feels like that same kind of, you know,

expectation that, uh, that was, that was Eddie, right? That is like, yeah. Yeah.

He also said about, he's not, he's basically not as scared, which was a weird line that they included. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's, uh, uh it's it's interesting and craig federighi drops in um they they mentioned scott forestall they mentioned maps actually that's the thing that i wanted to mention about this article that i thought was really good yeah the maps thing is good it's a piece of information because that that's a good example of like we screwed this up and why we screwed it up and that

and that um and it's what we've all thought and what i i still tell people to this day which is one of the great problems with maps and judging maps is you have to judge it about the information where you live and uh i live in california i live in the bay area the apple maps because people will say why you still use apple maps i can't believe that. Why would you do that? And it's like, well, it's good to live very close to Apple because the maps here are really good. The flip side of that is, and Eddie Q said that, is driving around Cupertino, everything looks great. All the map data looks great. There's no problem there. And then they realized too late that the rest of the world, the map data was terrible, but they didn't know it. There was this implication there, too, that they blame a lot of it on Scott Forstall, but I think it was more than that.

I think it's also something that's inside Apple, that Apple is so used to having these small teams. They mentioned that Apple has like double the employees it had when Steve Jobs was the CEO, since Tim Cook has been there. And I think the maps was a good example of that, where Apple tried to do maps with what they said was like a couple dozen people. They tried to redo maps with a very small group. And what they say anyway is, you can't do that. They don't say that doing maps on their own and not using Google was a mistake because they felt like, and I think it's been proven, it's a key part of what they do. They want that technology. They want to be able to control it. The problem was they launched it too soon, and they thought they could get away with a very small effort to do it.

And it turns out it actually is an enormous effort because you're mapping the entire world and everything in it. And now they apparently have a huge group of people, like they said, more than a thousand people now work on maps. So that's an interesting little tidbit that they thought they could get away with 50 people or whatever. And it turned out that they were way, way off on the level of the job that was going to be required. And then they learned their lesson. But what was really interesting about it is that Eddie Cue then turned it around and said, that's why we do public betas now. And I thought that was an interesting bit of insight that I hadn't really thought of before, which is Apple getting burned by having two insular community testing their stuff, which was inside Apple and then developers. And they felt like somebody made the argument that how we get around this is we open the doors.

And they're not opening the doors before they announce publicly things because they can't do that. But they can certainly, in this beta period, let it out there to people who want to try it. So that if somebody in, let's say slovenia hi anje tomic tries out ios beta and goes um oh this thing in slovenia is totally broken now um somebody at apple can actually hear that instead of them shipping it saying it works great in california and then the entire nation of slovenia saying no it's it's destroyed us. So that's good. That's a good thing.

But I must say, John's article was interesting as well. The big kind of crux of it was algorithm versus human curation. Yeah. She really put a lot of emphasis on the way that Apple uses the human curation, how important it was. But I wanted to see if you could clarify something for me. Aren't Apple bringing algorithmic mixes to Apple Music with iOS 10? They spoke about doing daily mixes and stuff like that, and they're surely not picked by humans. Right. I would imagine that it's a mixture of them.

I don't know that for sure. But, I mean, they could. They could. It seems like you would want a mixture of algorithm and people, and that if you want to personalize things. They're really doubling down on the human thing, especially in this article right and she's she's the head of marketing so that's their thing and kind of a lot of it is you know she's talking about how much people love the human curation which i get and i understand it but i love it i mean you can't

you can't fight against spotify though right like in saying that people love what spotify does people love spotify's discover weekly and none of that is human curated so yeah how do you differentiate yourself when you're behind your competition is you point out what's different which is we've got the human curation and that's great which is great they probably right it would be wise for them to also be pushing hard on algorithms but they're not ahead on algorithms now we're even close so they're going to push on where they feel they are ahead which is which is the human curation which is fine that that was a nice uh interview that's mark that's uh mark sullivan who used to uh be my colleague at uh he

was a pc world editor for a long time and uh it was nice uh she's an interesting uh she's an interesting character and he asked he asked her like why haven't we seen you before and she's like you know i've only been here a couple of years. Give it time. And that was really funny. It was almost like I will take over the world, but patience, patience. I loved it. It was a perfect answer, and I can imagine it came so quickly, right? Like just immediately.

Well, I've only been here for two years. I'm going to be the CEO. I think she's fantastic. I'm pleased they've given her more spotlight. And I think this is an example of a change in Apple, which I think is good. They knew this interview was going to go out there. They knew it was going to be focused on the three white main guys.

So they asked or kind of said, we also want you to interview St. John as well. And I think this is something that we're starting to see a little bit more of, which I like. They're trying to balance it out. That's my perception of it. They're aware of, which I like. They're trying to balance it out. That's my perception of it. They're aware of what they're doing and they're trying to balance it, which is the right thing

to do. They're trying. I mean, I'm not quite sure how an interview centered on three white guys, two of whom with grey hair – I say that as a white guy with grey hair – is balanced out by a little interview side but it's better than nothing yeah well i think i think what it shows is that apple understands

that this is a an issue that they need to deal with uh and a perception that they need to approach and they're they're they're aware of that in a way that they weren't before. There's more, there's more they probably have to do on that front, but they're, they're, they're aware of the perception and trying to, and being a PR person, right. It's all about how you manage that perception. And so now she's more visible and she's in this article and that's, and that's good because I think everybody's reaction to her has been really positive. So it's smart for them to get her out there more and talk about Apple Music, which is also a key thing, right? I think a little more of her, and I should say, I should also specify, Eddie Q is Cuban. So he's not just a totally generic white Anglo guy.

But still, more diversity inside apple is important they have their diversity ratings which came out lately which shows again they show progress but it's not particularly fast progress uh but it's progress so this is all part of uh you know first step is actually being aware that there's something that you need to care about and they they seem to be at that point uh and are trying to make change. And then people can criticize the pace of that change, I think, fairly. So next week, it is RelayFM's second, third?

How many years? Second? Second. Second, thank you. I know it seems like five, but it's two. It's RelayFM's second birthday next week. So I'm going to Memphis, and you're going to come to Memphis for a couple of days.

So we're going to record the show in person in Memphis. And if you are in that area, we're going to be having a meetup on Tuesday, August the 16th. I'm going to put a link in the show notes to a Facebook event page. If you want to come, please RSVP at that page. It is at a brewery, so it will be 21 plus i'm afraid so we're gonna be hanging out we've heard from some of our younger people that are sad that it's there but we had to do it somewhere and uh that's what we chose and there will be beer so that's it but yeah we'll be recording live and in person next tuesday as

well i'm looking forward to it. So yes, if you're expecting our episodes to be released on the Monday, as they usually are, it will be delayed a little bit. Because I'm traveling. Yeah, we are both flying in and get in sort of, we're both in the air, in fact, when we're normally recording this. But we will catch up and do it on Tuesday in person with Mr. Stephen Hackett. Yep. And that should be a lot of fun. Now, you are also not, you're traveling home and will not be available the following week.

That's true. So we'll have a very special guest for that episode too, which is, it's all scheduled with me and Merlin Mann. So hopefully Merlin will be back to chat some more. I'm excited. I really enjoyed the last one that you guys did when I was in New York. I'm actuallylin will be back to chat some more. I'm excited. I really enjoyed the last one that you guys did when I was in New York. I'm actually going to be in New York again. It seems like every time I go to New York, you have Merlin on the show. Yeah, that's all part

of the grand plan. It's how the universe keeps in balance. This week's episode is brought to you by a new sponsor, an upgrade, and that is Eero. Now you may have heard of Eero, but let me paint a picture for you, Dillisnet. If you, you may have heard of Eero, but let me paint a picture for you, dear listener. If you think about everything in your home these days, it basically all requires an internet connection, and that is only growing. You know, we have our phones and our iPads and our computers and our games consoles, but now speakers, thermostats, light bulbs, front door locks, security cameras, everything needs an internet connection as we move further and further towards this connected home idea. We are increasingly as well using streaming services,

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You know your internet speeds, all of the points. It's absolutely awesome. Now, Jason, I know that you have an Eero. How easy was it for you to set up? I set it up last week, and it was, my house isn't particularly large,

but we have some connection issues where I've had challenges finding the right setup in order to get Wi-Fi coverage in the whole house through walls and in the backyard and things like that. And the package I got was the three pack. Although if you have a small house like mine, I probably could have just done with a two pack, but I did got was the three pack. Although if you have a small house like mine, I probably could have just done with a two pack, but I did set up the three pack. And it was super easy as you described it, you know, you really you get you go to the app, and you set it up, and then you plug in the first device. And it, you know, it gets on the internet, and it walks

you through it very easily. And then and that's, you know, that's a pretty standard Wi Fi experience on that first device. Although it was it was easy, there were very easily. And that's a pretty standard Wi-Fi experience on that first device. Although it was easy, there were no complications. And I think that if you're using Apple hardware, you get spoiled. If you use non-Apple hardware, it's not that easy to get it set up. But this was like an Apple level, I would say.

Very, very simple to set up. And then the second one, you plug it in and say, okay, here's another one. And it says, okay, let me check. Okay, it looks good. All right, we're set up. And at that point, and then the third one was the same. And I actually, it's flexible enough and the system is smart enough that I actually had one place where I wanted to put one where there was an Ethernet plug.

So I plugged it into Ethernet there. And so it knows that it's on Ethernet and that it doesn't need to extend using its own wireless mesh network at that point. It could actually just use the Ethernet to get even more stability. But the right, I'm connected. And at that point, I just have one network. I've already set up what the SSID is. When I change the SSID, it changes it everywhere automatically. It all just sort of happens. And I've tried to have multiple base stations in various places in all sorts of different combinations. And it was complicated and felt unreliable. And that's the thing that I think that the Eero system is doing really well is it's kind

of hiding all of that. It's designed to have multiple stations that's built in. It's not like a weird afterthought. And yeah, and so the result was incredibly simple. And now I have this solid Wi-Fi signal throughout my home, all the way up here into the garage, all the way into the back bedroom and out into the, if I'm laying on the hammock uh reading off my ipad it's clear there too so you mentioned like it just being easy and that stuff one of the other things that ero does is they have uh their updates that happen to the system it happens overnight like when you're

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Just select the overnight shipping option when you get to checkout, enter the code UPGRADE, and you will get free overnight shipping at Eero.com. Thank you so much to Eero for supporting this show and RelayFM. It's a cool company, cool product. Yeah. Talking about something cool, I wanted to very briefly give a mini review of Pocket Cast 6. I've been playing around with it a little bit.

It came out a week or so ago, and I thought that it would be good to kind of mention it because Pocket Cast is 6 revision now, and they've added quite a few new features, which I like, and I wanted to give a little bit of love to that. So they have a dark mode now as well as an overall design refresh of the application and i absolutely love the way the pocket cast looks one of my favorite places for this application like from a design perspective is their directory screen they have a really great kind of featured page and stuff like that that i like jason have you seen this at all this is a really really good looking page and they feature a few different shows they have

trending and most popular lists and they do a really good job of highlighting that stuff and i think it's really good and i like to see relay fm right there on the networks page it makes me i like to see the incomparable right there as well yep it makes me very happy to see that stuff um i think it looks really good and when i say about added stuff they've added uh trim silence and voice boost a volume boost they call it so it's like the stuff that we have in overcast and has existed in other applications as well but i think it's been popularized by marco right like the the silence skimming and trimming and different kind of effects to make shows louder and to make them

sound better on speakers and stuff yeah and and they did a good uh shifty jelly did a good job with it too it's yeah they did do a good job it's they sound good i'm skeptical of speed up algorithms because speed up algorithms in general um i have been unable to stomach they are generally i find them i've unlistenable because it's it's sort of tick tick tick tick there's weird artifacts and overcast was the first app that really did um time compression stuff where i felt it was transparent and i was i was willing to use it and the yeah the uh the the um the pocket cast stuff is is like that it's it's much better it sounds very good so i have been playing on it i remember in like the early betas and stuff and on the android app and i've seen the progression that

pocket cars have gone through with theirs and theirs sounds excellent as well and you should have seen me the other night i was playing two devices side by side the same show to try and see if i could hear any differences and And to me, the differences are small, and I think they're there the way that I perceive them. And it's so difficult with this sort of stuff because you're just trying to play in what you're hearing, and it's not like a scientific test. But to my ears, it sounds like Overcast is still preserving more silence

than Pocket Cast is. And one of the reasons I like that is silence removal is a good thing. But having there be no silence when people are talking, I think that sounds a little unnatural. And I know that Overcast, the way I've heard Marco talk about it, is he doesn't just delete the silence. It is just shortened down and there's still some left in there. He scales it, basically. Exactly. Which is very clever.

So you're keeping a pause. A longer pause or a shorter pause will still some left in there. He scales it, basically. Exactly. Which is very clever. So you're keeping a pause, a longer pause or a shorter pause will still be longer or shorter. It will just be less, but it's sort of proportionally less, I think. And it totally sounds like that sort of starts happening in pocket casts too. But just to my ears,

I preferred the way that Overcast sounds. And one of the things that I noticed as I was with my show, The Ring Post and The In the incomparable there's some music that i use in it and the music sounded more closer to the original in overcast than it did in pocket costs that was that was the main thing that i could hear it's a very small thing because honestly it does a great job i think it's just a case of what you prefer when you listen to them and i think a lot of it is just the perception and i think there's some stuff going on there that's like deep subconscious stuff, right? But I just feel like the Overcast one works better for me.

One thing that Pocket Cast does really well that not a lot of podcast apps do really well anymore is video podcasts. Like the Apple podcast app doesn't do a very good job. Overcast doesn't support them at all. And they just added picture-in-picture and split-screen multitasking. So there are still some video podcasts that I watch.

I subscribe to Grey's videos via an RSS feed as well. So if there's ever video podcasts like the Apple events and stuff like that, Pocket Cast is where I play them. And now with picture-in-picture, even better. They also added, just perfectly in time for me mp3 chapters and custom artwork it was like the day after we published cortex where we had like seven chapters and seven custom made artworks that kind of went a bit crazy uh-huh and then this app came out and it had all of those in there and also last week i don't know if you noticed this i put some special

artwork in this show i put the 100 emoji on the artwork very nice i didn't notice that there you go so you could see that in the in pocket cars i've been doing that i did it with analog as well because we're talking about engagement and house stuff and for the chapters that i used i put little uh emoji like a ring emoji in a house emoji which i should probably take a very quick diversion to talk about my chapters mentality. I do use them every now and then. I use them when I feel it's necessary to include them for some reason. So last week's episode had it because we had a Mike at the Movie segment.

But just for me, regular episodes, I don't think that this show necessarily needs the chapters so much. It's just you just listen to it. We talk about some stuff. There are some shows where i always put chapters in them when they're a little bit more timeless and topic based i kind of just play around with it my feeling is i don't think every episode of every podcast should have chapters in it i do it when i feel it's right i know that you use them more than me but that's kind of just my feeling about it right now yeah and i don't use them so um like if you look at accidental Tech Podcast, Marco basically chapterizes that whole thing now. And it's nice that they're there, but I don't really use those. I feel like in most cases that's overkill. Although it's great if he wants to do it. I'm sure there are listeners out there who really appreciate that.

Um, for me, it, it varies by the podcast, but, uh, like incomparable, I'll do it when there's a clear line of demarcation I want to make. So if we fire off the spoiler horn or if we talk about two movies, uh, or two books or four books or something like that, I will absolutely chapterize those episodes. And clockwise, I clockwise is so rigorously formatted that I feel like it's perfect for that structure. Like I put them in there, even though I'm not sure anybody is skipping to the next topic. But if they want to, I just feel like it's a good show for that because it is split into four segments plus the goodbyes. So it's a good place segments as well. There's not like five one week, seven another week. It doesn't work like that. Exactly. segments as well there's not like five one week seven another week it doesn't work like that exactly so so it's same way as i i release lots of episodes that have no chapter marks in them

because i feel like it's just an episode the i'm not going to go through and say well this is the part where we talked about how the you know how the the movie made us feel and now i'm not going to do that that that's too that's a bridge too far people want to do that that's great and we could do it on this but i feel like you're probably making the right approach which is there's a line and when we cross it that's the moment when we chapterize so also whilst we're down in this rabbit hole uh for upgrade and connected i believe in speed these are news-based shows yeah this is breaking all the time i want them out as soon as possible to get chapters right a lot of the time you have to listen back to the show to edit and i

don't do listen through edits for those two shows i have my whole weird system of writing down time codes to take out crosstalk and i spend a lot of time doing that but if i do a full listen through edit i wouldn't be able to get these shows out for maybe a couple of days because that takes an incredible amount of time to go through and edit that way so i have my own system which means i can get this show out in 30 minutes and honestly i think it sounds great like if you listen to the difference between the live show and the and the release show you know me and jason are talking over each other all the time there are things that we repeat there are things that we change and i edit all of those and make and clean up the show

but i do that with my own way not clean i did that on purpose i just did over talk for an example for the leave that one in yeah i'm gonna see that that's how it's that's how it would sound do you want that do you want that to listen are you done so i i take my time to do it but if i was to to really add chapters probably i'd have to listen to the whole show and it would mean upgrade would be posted maybe two days later because that's a lot of work to put into my schedule so right i do a listen through for um for the incomparable and because i i do a lot of editing on that usually and uh yeah that's a that's a multi-hours process so not only is that more a lot more time to be put in but it also requires that those shows are are not instantly posted and the ones that i post instantly don't get that if you see a show

that has chapters in it from me typically on like a regular basis it's one that i post weirdly like so for example cortex always has chapters in it because it i edit it over the space of a week basically so i have the time for it i put chapters in the ring post but it's because we have big sections that are that are the same and i don't need to do anything with them because i record to three different people so i can just see it in the wave file so it's easy it's easy for me yeah and martin in the chat room says there are no chapters in robot or not that's not entirely true there are sometimes like everything in robot or not um the podcast to do with john syracusa uh chapters are used to frustrate the listener and ironically most of the time um i i have done it where there's been like a

two minute long episode with three or four chapter markers in it um again because that's what that show is all about is driving you crazy we have gotten way too far into the weeds now so pulling it back out again to talk about pocket casts um so yeah i'm pleased that they've added the chapter support mp3 i had aac chapter support but aac chapters have kind of died off i think most people are doing mp3 chapters now and a lot of us are doing it because we're on a beta for a tool that uses makes them in mp3s yeah i think it's really interesting that this application is now fully basically all written in swift with a few parts that aren't i can't think of any other high profile third-party applications that have been

basically completely ported to swift right now i can't think of any this is one of the first that i'd heard of doesn't really make any difference to me, I don't think. But I just thought it was worthwhile to note. I was surprised when I saw that in their blog post about it. I was like, huh, okay, that's an interesting thing that Russell did there, was to move it to Swift. Because it feels like a lot of the developers that I follow, and I'm thinking about under the radar here, David and Marco, they're both a little bit hesitant at Swift.

And I know they're both starting to dip their toe in the water, but Shifty Jelly have just moved their biggest application on iOS to Swift. I thought, huh, that's a bold move. Overall, Pocket Cast 6, I think, is really good. It's fantastic. They've done an incredible job with it. I think that Pocket Cast is basically the... It's hands down the best cross-platform podcast application.

Sure. Their Android app is spectacular. Their web app is brilliant. Have you ever used the Pocket Cast web app? I don't know if I have. It's really, really good. So, you know know like i know that marco's mentioned this before like basically overcast on the web it's just a list of shows

you know and you can just go through and listen to them but the the pocket cast web app is a web client of a podcast app it has a list it has playlists like it's all there so that's really good um i've got to say i am still going to continue to use overcast and there are a few reasons for that for me uh i i just prefer the way that smart speed sounds and works um and also the trim silence in pocketcast right now is only for downloaded shows and i basically stream everything now because i'm always at home when i'm listening to shows for the majority of the time so it not that not working there doesn't really work for me and also I love Marco's inbox feature on Overcast the ability to upload mp3

files of maybe shows I'm working on or audiobooks that I have legally acquired and done some stuff to to get them into inbox and ultimately for me now I've been using Overcast for so long it's just become the way that I think about podcasts it's like Tweetbot is for me now I've been using Overcast for so long it's just become the way that I think about

podcasts. It's like Tweetbot is for me and Twitterific is for you it's just the app that is synonymous with the type of thing that it does but I do think it's worth noting that there are other great options which is why I wanted to talk about this today and Graham at Max Stories posted a review of Pocket Cast 6

today and he made a great point which was one of the reasons I wanted to bring this up in the first place Max Stories posted a review of Pocket Cast 6 today and he made a great point which was one of the reasons I wanted to bring this up in the first place is I think that it's really great to see that there is still great choice and interesting development occurring on

podcast applications because it kind of feels like that is a market that should have matured by now and just be stagnating but it's not there's still lots of really interesting stuff happening and there's some good stuff on the way as well i know that the castro team um super top they are teasing the castro 2 and it looks really really interesting so yeah there's there's still some very cool stuff going on out there and yeah as somebody who makes their living on this stuff i'm really happy to see that the third-party applications that are

kind of where our audience is that market is still thriving so i would recommend go check out pocket casts like it's it's like 3.99 or something. It's not expensive. Just go and see. You might like it. If not, if you use Pocket Casts, go check out Overcast. If you use Castro, go check them out and make sure you keep an eye out for Castro too. Just download them all is what I'm saying because they're all great and they're made by great people.

Very much like how Twitter was before Twitter closed the API. You're right there. It is the famously, I think Gruber called it the UI playground. And it is like that, that everybody is trying to advance the ball in different ways and then also catch up with the competition. So Marco's audio stuff, I think, really spurred Pocket Casts to improve the game on the audio side. But Pocket Casts also does things that Overcast doesn't do castro is trying

some new things that are that are going to make that very interesting for uh for people that the other two aren't doing right now i mean there's all just there's a lot going on there and if you love podcasts um it's always good to i think to shop around these are these are relatively again if you can't afford three dollars to try out another podcast app that you might love then i guess don't buy it but um it seems like a very small price to pay if you're somebody who listens to a lot of podcasts because maybe you'll find another tool that fits your life better i don't know so yeah that's that all right german watch he's back he's back we spoke about mark german when he moved uh to bloomberg a few weeks ago and

we were wondering what that was going to look like for him well now we know uh german has done a few things in the last couple of weeks and his role over at bloomberg right now um one of them oh man autoplay video oh she just bloomberg you're killing me welcome to my world play video i just can't i just can't anyway so uh german is doing a few things he has been reporting on some just general new stuff like the fact that apple released the uh iphone app to control the apple tv so that sort of stuff's in there he's doing some beat reporting but he's also breaking some stories and one of them was uh that apple is hiring a car person, a guy by the name of Dan Dodge,

who's a former CEO and founder of QNX, which was bought by BlackBerry. Of course, there's a guy named Dodge who's a car person. Yeah, kind of perfect. And basically saying that Dodge is going to be working on some automated software stuff for them. He's going to be joining Big Bob Mansfield. And he did have some tidbits that I thought were interesting in this car story

that apparently Apple has hundreds of engineers working on a car design and is targeting a release of 2020. Mansfield's division, he's running the car division it seems, comprises of three pillars led by Apple veterans. And you can mention to me if you know these people, Jason. Not personally, but know of them. Software team under John Wright, a sensor group headed by Benjamin Lyon,

and a unit of hardware engineers led by DJ Notevny. Mansfield apparently reports to Cook directly, and Dan Dodge is a part of John Wright's software group. There is stuff happening. I think at this point, whilst there's a lot of dancing around, like, maybe they are maybe they aren't, Apple investigate everything, that kind of discussion we were having. I think at this point, it seems pretty sure that that. But what I really wanted to talk about today was a story that Mark broke this morning, which was kind of rounding up and confirming in the German way, confirming, maybe we'll call it that, iPhone 7 design details. So let me go through some of these with you, Jason.

We've got a couple of different pillars here of what the new iPhone is going to look like, and they kind of are wrapped under more advances to photography and the capabilities there, and similar hardware design. So let's start with the camera. There is apparently going to be camera improvements throughout, but on the larger phone, dual camera system. Yes.

Hashtag Mike was right on that one, I guess. Wait, are you right because you predicted that there would be two cameras? Big phone's best. Big phone's best. Okay, I'm going to give this to you. This is the sort of feature that would make me consider buying the big phone. And I think there's going to be many converts to the Plus Club come September. So basically, the information that we have is brighter photos, sharper photos,

and will allow users to zoom while retaining more clarity. This is what a dual lens system can do. There have been many rumors to varying capabilities of what a dual lens camera can do there are dual lens cameras out there it's you know it seems like that there's ways to adjust like focus and zoom and after the fact and software and some of them i think that what we're going to see is a massive focus on the camera stuff and it is interesting that it's only going to be in the plus which will probably be renamed to the pro there are also rumors of there being three phones right yeah plus a plus

and a pro that's that seems awfully complicated to have four current model iphone yeah designs but however they do it there being uh an emphasis on the naming to become the Pro, which would make so much sense. If they don't name it the iPhone whatever they call it, 7 and 7 Pro, I would be very surprised because they have Pro everywhere now. But anyway, and also one of the bigger things, and I think the thing that

we'll be focusing on the most come September is similar hardware design. Apparently there's going to be some noticeable tweaks. The antenna lines's going to be some noticeable tweaks. The antenna lines are going to be different, maybe mimic a little bit more of the iPad design of the way the antennas look, which I really like that style.

And apparently Apple will be focusing on the fact that they are moving away from the two-year cycle of hardware design. Of design, yeah. This is looking at the photos that have leaked that appear to be real legitimate iPhone 7 builds. It looks like an iPhone 6 model with some changes. I mean, it won't be like the model like the S where you have to look and see that it says S.

And that's how you know, right? It'll look a little different. You'll be able to very quickly kind of look at it and go, oh, this is a 7. But it's not going to be a dramatic difference. In fact, I'm interested. I'm intrigued about whether it actually fits in the cases for the six. I wonder if it might. It's going to be close.

Certainly, it looks like. I wanted to ask something. This is something that maybe I'll write a piece about this later. This is how think pieces happen, by the way, is you just have that little spark where you're like, Oh, huh. I wonder. So I'll,

I'll, I'll share it here and maybe I'll write something about this. Maybe I won't. I wonder talking about the plus or pro or whatever, the, the, the big, the big phone.

I wonder if the existence of the iPhone S E makes the iPhone 6 or 6S or 7 non-plus model a little less of an interesting product. Like if it starts to kind of fade away a little bit, and maybe it's still the mainstream product and most people will buy it. But at some point, if you've got that SE, which does really well and fulfills people who want a smaller phone. And how many people had the 6 or the 6S because it was the smallest of the current model phones? And it's just a thought that I'm feeling in myself. Like, the more they put into the high-end phone beyond just, like, video image stabilization. But, like, the camera is way better. I find myself looking at the smaller phone

and thinking, I could either get an SE or I could get the big phone with the good camera. It takes the shine off of essentially the middle size a little bit. I wonder about that.

Whether you think of it as a good or a bad thing, the fact that the SE will probably remain with its current features is a factor, right? It's true. The SE would be, like, for so many people, an absolute no-brainer if it got the same features that the other ones

were going to get, but it's going to be held back. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see how dramatic the feature changes are on the seven i think that the way that the se is sold should indicate to apple that maybe they should be refreshing that a little bit faster than they thought i don't know we'll see what they do there i just i i i just had that thought of like i wonder if in a if in a year or two the iphone line if it's going to keep on having three sizes or if at some point do

they embrace the fact that they should build a new modern design for that smaller size and have the big phone that has all these amazing high-end features and that middle size do people really want the middle size or are they buying the middle size because of its price and because it's the smaller of the two mainstream phones if the se is picking up probably not probably that middle size is the sweet spot but it just it strikes me i think it is honestly i i would be surprised if they got rid of that size because it will fit so many more people um and you know that there are many people with kind of like average sized hands or whatever that prefer that size uh and but don't want to go anywhere near the plus because it's the plus is huge it is huge

and i know it is but that's what i like about it um there's more though uh i'm gonna actually i put a link in the show notes to a mac room as um photos of of uh apparent iphone 7 so you'll see the camera is bigger much bigger on the regular phone, it looks like. It's like the regular phone here. So there's going to be advancements probably across the two phones, but it is in the plus

where you're going to see significant change with the dual lens technology. There is going to be a re-engineered home button that responds to pressure with haptic feedback. The mechanism is similar

to the force touch trackpads, GoMem german reports i don't know why we need this uh okay yeah i don't know i mean unless there is a complete change in it like i see maybe that they you know there's been a lot of rumors and and i think it might have been started by John Gruber, about the next phone being this incredible edge-to-edge, all-glass, all-screen thing. Eliminating a moving part is probably the motivator, right? That's what I would think. It's like, let's start by eliminating moving parts. So they're kind of using this one as a way to move towards that, you know? And this would be one of them.

I mean, it's an engineering issue, too. It is... It's a moving part it breaks people's homes home buttons don't work right um and sometimes some percentage of them and you take that out and it's one less place where there's stuff moving around there's a place for water to get in there's a place for junk to get in just take it out have it be uh a thing that you then again you know haptic feedback you gotta you gotta make sure that that feedback is is good enough for people to feel like they've actually

pressed the button yeah because if not it can get really frustrating um if you're if you're like trying to press it and nothing is happening or you feel that nothing is happening so that's a it's a chat there's a challenge there they did a pretty good job with the force touch trackpad so maybe that's uh that's where they're going with it is reduce the moving parts on the you know on the outside of the of the device um i don't know it's an interesting idea that is the like you said the the thought of like ultimately will there be a home button less um device i don't know and if we're taking that thinking a little bit further when we spoke about the headphone jack removal thing we were saying is it partly read to get ready for the next one uh i know that we kind of poo-pooed that but there it seems like that the headphone it

might be internally but it's pointless from a consumer standpoint to say we're we're we're removing this thing here because next year is going to be great it's not something they can say to anyone apparently the removal of the headphone jack is happening and it is in favor of bluetooth and lightning as your audio method and it's going to be making room for a second speaker man i cannot see so that's so that's they're going to be their story that's going to be their story is now we have stereo speakers on the bottom uh within an inch of each other and so it'll be really awesome i do not see how they spin this this is going to be very very interesting samsung had an event where they introduced the new note 7 i think it was last week a week before and they were taking shots at apple which i thought was very funny i'm kind of like hinting

at the fact that they still have a headphone jack. See, they should leave the headphone jack in the Plus. That would be another way that the Plus gets people. It's like, we've got the room there, so we'll just leave it there. But on the other phone, we just don't have the room. That would make me... You would not even believe the glee that I would have if that was the case. But that's not what he's reporting. He's reporting that they're both going to lose the headphone jack

and everybody who likes wired headphones, get to have a lightning uh dongle i don't know what the reason is going to be from apple for this i i'm still holding on to the fact and i'll kind of i was going to lay my cards out on the table what i think they're going to say i think they're just going to use the exact same reasoning they use for the macbook air we live a wireless life yep i think and i think if i were to predict it i think they're gonna they're gonna blow past it it's not going to be one of those things where it's like we know this is controversial but let me explain why i think it's more likely that what they're going to say is look everybody loves wireless headphones uh we don't the headphone jack's 100 years old

you know we'll give you a dongle but we don't think most people care about this and uh you know and we got a second speaker in that space instead which people really love because so many people listen to their iphone through the speaker that we want to that we know they're going to throw a statistic at you there right yeah like they're going to give you one of those statistics and honestly like and they'll move on you look at something like overcast right like mark has said that so many people listen on the speakers i mean i do constantly i listen to on the speakers way more than i listen to the headphone jack but it's the convenience thing is is interesting and it's going to be really weird how they explain it when they say well i believe we have a wireless life but we're also giving you wired lightning headphones

in the box like it's i this is going to take all of the best marketing power that apple has to try and give this a reason it won't placate people not saying it should but it's always interesting to hear what reasons they give because they don't just say like this is it deal with it there's always a story and i'm they should maybe try that to see what happens i'm interested to see where it goes so some good stories from german there i'm happy to see him it goes. So some good stories from Gorman there. I'm happy to see him back. This week's episode is brought to you by Mack Weldon. Jason, Mack Weldon. Yes, Mack Weldon.

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it was a really nice shopping experience their stuff looks really great I have bought some underwear and some socks and I've also bought some sweatpants. I've been looking for some nice sweatpants for when I fly because I don't really like to wear jeans so much and I don't want to wear kind of like sweatpants to make it look like I've just come from the gym. I want stuff that looks good and I've got these sweatpants I'm going to be picking up and wearing on my trips this summer and they look really nice. They just look like a nice pair of trousers as opposed to some gym clothes.

Now, Jason, I know that you own Mac Weldon products, right? Indeed, I do. Yes. Same deal. I've got some of their underpants and also of their socks, which are nifty. I like the socks. Yeah, great design. They've got stripy socks.

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dot com with the code UPGRADE. You'll get 20% off, which is fantastic. Thank you so much to Mack Weldon for their support of this show and RelayFM. is it just the way i say it yeah so you say you say mac weldon mac weldon mac weldon i'm putting the emphasis on the wrong syllables right mac weldon and because you don't pronounce your r's because you're english it becomes mac worlding because mac world mac world and mac welden are the same okay well okay it's jason this is probably

something you're very interested in and you wrote a little piece about this on six colors as well some news from peter kafka who is the media guy over at recode he was stuff like this talking about apple's plans to create a tv guide yeah yeah it's uh i like it i mean there are tv guide apps out there yahoo has one people have tried this the idea of what you want to do is think of it this way um hbo only cares about hbo stuff and netflix only cares about HBO stuff and Netflix only cares about Netflix stuff. But Apple as the box owner plays above that level. And with like the Siri search, they've tried to do this where they've got different providers and they're all indexed together. And so when you say, show me this show, it can say, oh, well, that shows on HBO and it's also on Netflix and it's on iTunes.

And then you can pick what you want to do. And so what Peter Kafka's report is saying is that Applewood is talking about the idea of creating a digital TV guide on Apple TV and elsewhere that would be even more expansive. That it would show, and some of this is me extrapolating here from the Kafka's report, but it would show things like the shows that you want to watch. You could keep track of your shows that you've watched and want to watch and your watch lists and things like that, which would be really interesting. So that whenever you want to watch a video, you can go, oh, let's watch a video. What do I have? And then kind of pick it. And that could be across services, which I think is compelling and a place where Apple can add value, even though they're not a video provider themselves, more or less.

And then I also was thinking that this would also be a useful way to handle live streams. And I know that somebody made an announcement about this, about, and I think Apple even has talked about this, the idea of, you know, what's on right now, the idea that there are lots of live TV streams out there on the internet too, some for pay and some not, and finding ways to organize that. Joe Steele wrote a nice piece a while ago, I think he feels vindicated now, where he talked about people do actually like to see what's on and flip around a little bit, and the internet has kind of lost that, and that bringing that back might be a smart move so it's not like apple's breaking new ground here i think in some ways but i i think this is a place

where apple can differentiate uh itself and uh make the user experience of internet video on an apple tv or an iphone or an ipad better it's an interesting idea. So I have some questions about this because I'm very confused about it. In the world where our services are on demand, Netflix, HBO, Amazon,

if they ever have an Apple TV app, how do you make a TV guide out of on-demand content? Nothing is broadcasting on netflix i think i think you end up uh i think a wish list is the kind of thing adding to favorites or a wish list the idea that if you're on your apple tv or even in your ipad you have the ability to say like you know i want to most of these services this is one of the reasons why they're probably working with these services most of these services have a way to mark things as a favorite.

You also want to get whatever is live or whatever is new or newly added because that happens on some of these platforms too. But that idea, I have a to-do list in my reminders app of shows I want to watch because I don't have a single, you know, some of them are on HBO Go and some are on Netflix and some are on Amazon and some are on Hulu. And so I have a list in reminders. It's dumb. And that would be a place where Apple could build some nice UI to essentially give me something that's sort of like my TiVo now playing list, which is like, here are the shows that you've said you want to track. And here's what's new if there are new episodes, if you're on a service that's releasing new episodes. Because I've been thinking about this, like, what is the UI?

How is this stuff provided? Because Netflix, HBO, I'm going to keep saying it, by the way, because people love it or hate it. These companies, they don't want Apple to be their interface. Yeah, I had a back and forth with somebody on Twitter about this. Because one of the things Kafka says in his story is TV industry executives I've talked to, Kafka, view this as a mixed bag. They like the idea of making their individual shows easier to find, but they worry that

moving consumers' focus from their individual apps to a universal guide will reduce their power to promote their other shows. It's like, well, yeah, that's life. You want people to find your stuff, but you actually want to control them so they can't find anybody else's stuff. Well, guess what? This is one of those advantages that Apple has. Eddie Cue even talked about this in that story for Fast Company.

One of Apple's advantages is that Apple is thinking about, oh, it wasn't Eddie Q, it was Tim Cook. He was talking about healthcare. And he said, everybody else in the health industry is worried about maximizing insurance reimbursements, and Apple isn't. And so Apple has a perspective that's very different and lets them do things that other people involved in healthcare wouldn't do. And I see it with the Apple TV here, that this is a case where Apple really cares about the user experience. They're not a content provider who's trying to protect their content pile. And so I think I get the fear here, but the way the person who was

engaging with me on Twitter about this, I think his vision of this was a very different vision than my vision of what this feature is. I don't view this as Apple taking over Netflix from you, although they could do that. I don't, I mean, the way TiVo does it, you can save a show that's on Netflix on your TiVo. But when you click on the show, you go to the Netflix app and see that show's page. It doesn't subsume the Netflix interface. Sure, but it might stop people browsing the Netflix interface, right? It might, although, I mean, again, like the story said, the pros are your shows are findable. The cons are your show, your interface that is only pushing your stuff is less visible.

Not invisible, but less visible. If you look at Netflix, every time they have a new original, they tell me it's something I might like, even if it's completely unrelated to anything I've ever seen before. How are they going to continue to do that? So I'm wondering, like, do they just not get to do that anymore? Or does the data for some of this recommended stuff come from the application? So they're just going to push it on us anyway. I would imagine that that is part of what they're talking about. But I think that's not unreasonable to say that if Apple were to do a discovery thing

based on this, not just sort of what you put in your list, but like, here's some other stuff, which is not, it's not guaranteed that they would, right? Apple's got their own TV stuff that they promote in their TV app. And it could be as simple as like, you use your Netflix app to look through Netflix, but if you save something as a favorite,

you can browse that from our TV favorites app that we're doing um you but if they did do recommendations yeah it could be like you know we're you have a netflix show here so we're going to recommend netflix shows that are similar to it based on netflix's own algorithm that they're providing i think because in theory the the developers of the applications would need to provide that because Apple's kind of way of doing things would not be by data collection. Like they would struggle to recommend to you. Yeah, Apple would have an API that they would say, like, look, this is how this is going to work. We're going to talk to you. You're going to tell us this in this way.

Everybody's just like with the Siri search stuff. And they would put that together. So I guess what I'm saying is I can imagine a version of this that makes a lot of sense for customers, for people, for users, and is fine, I would say, reasonable for the content providers. I can also see, yeah, I can see a version of it that the content providers would be more chilly on. That said, I find it funny that a week after there was that piece about how Apple is incredibly arrogant when it comes, in the Wall Street Journal, incredibly arrogant when it comes to negotiating with entertainment companies and Eddie Q walks in without socks and everybody else is wearing suits and everybody hates Apple because they're

so arrogant. And at the time, my comment about that article was, why is it that only Apple is being portrayed as arrogant? Don't you think the TV executives or movie executives are also arrogant in a different way? And that this is a clash of two people representing huge industries and big businesses trying to negotiate with each other? But, you know, that story was obviously fed from one side. And now this one is. one side and now this one is so so so this story yes this story i look at it and say these are the people who are saying apple was arrogant and i'm not saying apple doesn't act arrogantly they do but this is a case where apple is saying hey we want to make this uh this better for the users and the tv industry is like oh no we don't want to make things more convenient we

want to lock them into our platform and pretend like there's no other platforms out there. And that's where you get bad user experience where all of these things are siloed. And it's very difficult to do anything to integrate them, even though users would like the services they subscribe to to all be integrated together so that it was a simpler experience. And Apple has gone a step with the Siri search on Apple TV. So I feel like they're headed down the path. I don't know where this Peter Kafka story is originated. It seems to be Apple itself. But this is a case, it's an interesting case where I would think there's a way for this to make sense that TV providers would be happy about because in the end, they're the ones charging for their content.

And the content without that content there, you know, it doesn't show up if you don't pay for the content. So I don't know. It's an interesting, it's an interesting idea. What I like about it is it allows Apple to put its own spin on this for its users to differentiate the Apple TV and the iPhone and the iPad without Apple having to get into the, you know, we're launching our own streaming service business. I wonder how this would look from a UI perspective. Would this be an application? Would this be a brand new view in Apple TV that you see? One of the other things is it's funny to

me how Apple would potentially be creating a UI view or an application that kind of devalues the other applications. Yeah, well, I mean, it depends on how they do it. I imagine it would be more like a launcher into those applications. But that removes a lot of the other views, right? Like it just takes you straight to play. So I'm wondering how that's going to play out and how that will look. And will this be

an app that Apple makes that you go and download? Or is this just like Apple TV view? Like you see this first and then maybe you press the home button to go to the apps. But this is like your main view like when you turn on your television. I'd imagine it would be integrated and not an app that you would download.

Whether it would be an app or something that you kick off from the ui in a different way or via siri or something like that like is is it is it just siri show me what's on tv right now or you know show me what's on my wish list or is there a is there sort of like a a you know a to-do list kind of of a guide, live guide app thing. I don't know. It's an interesting idea. Where does the data come from? Like, will I be shown what's happening and stuff that I don't subscribe to?

Will I then need to pay for every individual feed and application to get all of this stuff? Like, I'm really wondering how this is going to look. And also, if this was Apple's idea this is what the apple tv should have always been yeah i i think this is the like i said i think the siri stuff shows that this is sort of the path they have wanted to go down the universal search in siri and this is another step down there and and if i had to guess the recode story exists because apple is meeting resistance and is frustrated because this seems to make a lot of sense and be something that benefits everybody and yet they are running into resistance from people who are like basically we don't want to

deal with apple oh sometimes i wonder if the negotiations between the entertainment industry and apple are literally like apple says here's a deal that's pretty good but we expect you to counter offer and then and because that's a reasonable thing to do it's obviously our first deal it's going to be weighted toward us but you're going to counter and it's going to be fine and then the other side says they're magicians don't believe anything they say whatever looks good is actually bad run away i i kind of think that that maybe is how hollywood views apple at this point like they just don't believe that they aren't going to screw it up if they agree to anything apple wants so just

say no um but apple finds a way to do things here and there the universal search i think universal search is really great for hbo and uh it's great for netflix and it's great for apple but i think it's great for everybody because if you want to find a movie or a show, it basically brings in competition. That's the part that bugs me about that statement that they view it as a mixed bag. Because what they're really saying there is we are afraid to compete with the other services on a level platform. on a level platform. Our game plan is really predicated on the fact that you're going to stay in the HBO app and never leave it, which is delusional. But yes, I can see why you would want to not have to compete with anybody and just live on your own. I totally get it. It's just delusional. So we'll see what happens. But I do think Apple's success with iTunes has made it difficult for them to make deals with the entertainment industry.

And not for rational reasons. Because I think what Apple, like I said, I can see if I was an entertainment company, which I am not. I am a person. Kind of an entertainment company, though. Sure. Whatever. I would look at this and say there's a deal to be made here. This makes sense. I see why we could make a deal here that would be good for us. And, yes, we would have at this and say, there's a deal to be made here. This makes sense. I see

why we could make a deal here that would be good for us. And yes, we would have to give some things up, but we would also gain in return even more of this universal access on their platform. So let's talk about it. Also, Apple TV is not the dominant video platform, nor is it likely to be. And so why not try this out? Maybe'll learn some things maybe this will give us a path forward with other other box providers or you know whatever so i don't know that that's the thing that strikes me as funny that at least they think of it as a mixed bag and not just completely like a disaster um because yeah sure it's a mixed bag that's why you negotiate i want to just float a madcap theory as i like to do so

when we look at this we're like this seems like the way the apple tv should be right like this seems like the natural thing that you would do you would have some kind of unified view right like you look at it like this should have been the apple tv and all the reports suggest it was supposed to be right yeah it was supposed to be a streaming service, but they didn't do it. It reminds me of the watch. Watch OS 3 is what we're saying the watch should have been, right? So if you look at the way that the watch works and how people use it, watch OS 3 seems to be what we wanted from 1 and 2 but didn't get. So this says to me one of two potential things.

Apple is either A, more willing to change tack now when they're getting feedback or they're more willing to like completely overhaul something or go in a completely different direction after it's been released or b they're releasing products too early before they've actually finished it's uh i i feel like it's the first of those which is i think it's a little column a little clump being i think that well i think that they should have released the apple tv when it was ready and not tried to attach it to like a tv service or something that didn't happen because flat out that product was not ready when it shipped well that's true right there was so much stuff it just didn't do well i was i

was actually referring to the fact that they could have gotten it ready and shipped it a year earlier and instead they put it on the shelf while they tried to make and failed to make the deals and then they had to get it and dust it off and then it wasn't ready because they had to dust it off it was too dusty and they shipped a dusty product and then had to fix it um but yeah i i think um changing tack in some ways that's just how the world works these days, is that they have to do it. I would imagine that a lot of this discussion, the universal search and the stuff that they're talking about now is based on the idea that Apple originally thought that they were going

to be able to do a TV service, right? And do a bundle and all of that. And that turned out to be way too complicated. And so now it's almost like what Apple's saying is, okay, tell you what, you guys can figure this out, right? You can sell everything a la carte. You can work with services like Sling or whatever to bundle things together into fat bundles, into skinny bundles, whatever.

We're obviously not going to be able to do that. So what we're going to do is we're going to back up a step and we're going to index the stuff that you've got for whoever's paying for whatever and be the way for your users to get at your content and whatever else they're subscribing to. And that's a good plan B, I think. The idea that Apple's not providing that for them. So instead, you're going to get it from, you know, you're going to get a little over here and a little over there and we will be the ones who put it together in one place.

And maybe that's a better role for apple i hope so but i'm pleased to see that there's more going on here um and i'm very interested to see how how and if they pull this one off this might be one of those things where they're struggling so much with the deals that they're kind of going public leaky with it to try and push people uh we'll see we'll see do you want this though you want this the theory of it yeah i i like this a lot i i i think um i mean i see apple's benefit for me for me the big challenge is i like some stuff that's on amazon that's not on the platform because amazon but um but i like the idea of uh of compiling a master list of the shows you want and because that's this is a thing,

it's like as great as the disruption has been with streaming and things like that, it does make it harder to keep track. Like I said, I make a to-do list. I don't have what I had when I had just the DVR list of here's what was recorded. Because I have things that I've recorded and things on Netflix and things on Hulu

and things on Amazon and things on HBO Go and it gets complicated. So I would, I think ways of making it simple. And then to Joe Steele's point in that piece that he wrote, things like what's on, show me what's live. As linear TV is going away and yet there is this sort of desire, I think, in people for the idea of sort of surfing content to see what's out there. And TV services don't do a great job of that now. And so I like that doing more with that idea of what's on right now, even if it's literally like, here's a YouTube, what's on a YouTube channel. And here's what's on ESPN three. And, you know, just stuff like that. I think that's all more ways

of floating that stuff out there rather than having to go to a particular app, a particular channel in an app, a particular list in that channel and then start to play it. The easier you can make all of that, I think the better the video experience is. This week's episode is also brought to you by Hoverboy. This is the company

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Pepperoni Pineapple continues to sweep the globe. It's true. We get more about it every day i did see somebody this week who was um recommending that uh i think who was it was maybe tiffany armand was recommending that somebody try it with ham instead of pepperoni and i was like wait a second you're just going back to the hawaiian yeah that's where this all started this is the better hawaiian it's an upgraded hawaiian if we don't we don't go simple here i mean i've seen people add bacon that's fine but don't take away the pepperoni the point is the pepperoni and the pineapple together somebody pointed out uh that they liked it with uh jalapeno on it i will say that that is an addition that i make sometimes

sometimes very rarely but it adds a little spice if you've got some pepperoni that's not the turkey pepperoni i use at home because my wife doesn't eat pork um is not as spicy so sometimes i'll add a little uh little jalapeno here and there just to add some spice back in just a little option but the the core pepperoni pineapple is the core just let's be clear so spread the word it is time for ask upgrade yes i was waiting for some lasers at the end of the game. The lasers misfired. Matthew asked, In approximately two years, I'd like to switch to iPad Pro only.

What should I do now to ensure a smooth transition? The thing that really kind of pricked my ears to this is why the specific timeline, Matthew? Why in approximately two years? Why not do it now? Why not do it in six years? Who knows? But if I was going to give you some tips as to starting this transition, one, I think two years

is probably too long anyway. So I would try and maybe shorten that down a bit or maybe start this process a little bit later. But start using your iPad as much as you can right now. Find the apps that you like. Find the apps that you need to do the weird thing that you do on your Mac, which takes two applications on iOS, but is perfectly fine and lovely to use. Casey Liss, don't come at me. I'll fight you. Find where those tricky parts are. There are solutions for basically all of those problems I've found, barring some like crazy stuff, right? But I don't do a lot of insane, tricky, hacky, AppleScript-y stuff. For all of the main problems, I find ways around them. Sometimes they

take longer, sometimes they're faster, but sometimes they're more fun to solve those problems on iOS, I find. Work with that. But the other thing is, iOS will probably look quite different on the iPad in two years' time. So, just jump in now and see how far you can go.

It might not be there for you yet. Maybe you do need to wait a little bit longer. Like I am not comfortable to record podcasts on my iPad and I'm perfectly okay with that. I have a dedicated work machine to record and edit shows. Everything else I do on my iPads and that makes me happy. I feel like I live the iPad life that way. But you've got to just find where you want to be with these things.

And don't just go iPad Pro only for the sake of it. Hopefully you have a really good reason that you want to do that. And honestly, that reason, if you feel this way now, should be good enough to help you make the switch now. So try it. Yeah, the only thing I would add is, yes, it's the idea of starting to use it for your work and then over time finding that you like it and then you want to use it more. Use cloud services for your files.

So make sure if you're using an app that you can open the files from that app on the iPad in that app's equivalent or something that's compatible and you know try iCloud drive or Dropbox or you know some other cloud service provider and just start using it and see what the see what the issues are and you'll you'll know I mean it's it's not a forced march right it's you you you kind of make the transition over time and find your comfort level and I still use both platforms I'm team both um but i uh like this weekend i i've gone down this path enough that this weekend i was able to edit and post um and not for the first time but this weekend i realized that we were leaving for a long weekend before i had even edited the incomparable and so i just took it with me on my ipad and it was fine i edited it and posted it from the road and it was all good i'm not looking for an argument here but whilst you say that you're team both i say you're team ipad but for that reason it's just my distinction is like i consider

myself team ipad but i use my mac all the time for this stuff but you're even further down that road than me because you can and will willingly edit your very popular show on your ipad which is something i am still a little bit too nervous to do i have done it i have played around with it but you i've seen you do it so i say you are team ipad my friend i don't think so because um you know there are there are tools that i can't depends on how you define it but there are things that i i don't want to do on my ipad if i could if i could say though right i'm the same but i think people would class me as team ipad now so i think that we are simpatico yeah my friend all right but but if we

are team ipad we are we are team ipad with a mac that we use for some work and that is not yeah ipad pro only right so that's an important distinction a macster risk. Team iPad of a Maxterisk. I don't know what that is. Okay. Next question. There was something else I wanted to say. Oh, if you are looking to try and jump onto the iPad Pro and the iPad and the iOS lifestyle and you haven't yet subscribed to Canvas on RelayFM,

you should do that because they will help you. They help me every two weeks. I learn things that I need to know and didn't know. So go check it out. Chris asks, does iOS 10 have music as a split screen app? Yes, it does. And it is a welcome addition by me. I'm kind of crazy that it wasn't done until now,

but they do have that. I had an upload this weekend for the podcast that I was editing. I had to upload it. And I actually use Dropbox as an intermediary to get it on. It's a long, one of these days I'll detail my iPad production workflow.

But Dropbox doesn't do split screen. And so I spent and the hotel internet was slow so it took me about 10 minutes to upload this file from Dropbox. And so I was i was using slide over the entire time oh my god it's the worst i mean it's great that it's there but i

i've got this huge ipad screen and i'm using this little narrow corner while dropbox slowly uploads in the background but i did it i was in slack i was in twitterific i was in safari in slide over for about 10 minutes so dropbox is one app which i mainly give a pass to with this because the majority of the time i'm not in the dropbox app when i'm using dropbox right like i'm using document pickers or uploads and stuff so it kind of gets forgotten about but yes it's ridiculous that it isn't split screen. But I forget that it isn't. Where like for something like Google Docs, there's nothing you can do.

You can't even use Google Docs in a web browser on iOS, right? Like it forces you to the app. Where Dropbox, it has its view into so many applications that I kind of do forget that it's not split screen. But yeah, I agree with you though, that it definitely should be. And I really hope that they're working on that i've got this question comes from dave and i'm going to need your help on this jason because okay this is very different here i'm here to help

the move of carriers away from subsidies is rarely mentioned in iphone sales discussions is this not a big factor don't most people now see carriers paying them not to upgrade their phone every two years um so i think we might have touched on this last week but it's definitely something that came up in the apple analyst call um and what i would say is um they asked they asked about this and tim cook said we don't know because there are replacement plans that a lot of people are using where they finance because people don't want to actually spend, you know, six, $700 on a phone where they do financing over time. And at the end of that time, yes, your phone bill goes down, but then you've also got an old phone. And so Apple's got one

where you get a new phone every year. And phone companies have them at two years or at a year and a half or at three years or at two and a half years. There are a lot of different ones out there. Plus, people who want to can just buy the phone and see the lower price on their bill. And that's something that they can do too. So this is the question, is what will that mean? My gut feeling is that I think it's going to come out in the wash. I think it's not going to make a big difference in terms of the buying cycle, because for the people who say, oh, I can go, I can, I'm going to keep my two, two year old phone and hold out another year for every one of those.

How many people are, are saying, oh, this is awesome. I can just pay this monthly price to Apple and I get the new iPhone every year. And instead of having to wait on every other year. And I think, I think you're going to see a diversity of choices, uh, people choosing a year and two years and three years,

there are always going to be people who I think it's great for people who get to the end of their two year cycle and still are happy with their phone that they don't feel the pressure to upgrade because they might as well. They're paying essentially that subsidy. Back in the old method, your bill doesn't go down after two years. So you better just get a new phone because they're charging you anyway. You might as well get the latest phone. And that's not true anymore. With this new system, your bill goes down because your subsidy is not there. It's now a payment for a phone.

It has a term and it ends, which is way better. So it's possible. But and this is mostly in the US where subsidies have been a huge thing. But I feel like in the long run, because these phones are fairly pricey when you're just buying them. And so many people are used to not spending a big amount of money for a phone because it has been subsidized you're going to see people go on these plans and the plans are going to have different terms and i do think for something like the iphone where people really love the iphone and always want the new iphone i think that that plan where

you get a new iphone every year is going to have a lot of lot of appeal. So that's my take on it. But we'll see. It could change. We don't know whether the average life of an iPhone in the buying cycle is going to be two years or three years or one year. But my guess is that it won't be that much different than it is now. We had two questions this week on the idea of an Apple phone. And Lucas started off with, if Apple were to have introduced the iPhone now, imagine there was no iPhone and now there was an iPhone, do you think that they would have called it Apple phone instead of iPhone? I think yes, because I think Apple's clearly moving away from the iBranding with all their new products.

So this goes on to Elon's question, saying that rumors are saying that the iPhone 8, so the next iPhone, will be a huge visual change. Could this be the time to change the name to Apple Phone after it also being 10 years? I have my feelings about this. I think that

the change to Apple Phone is inevitable but I don't know when. I mean, iPhone has such a big kind of brand recognition at this point. That's one thing. I think so many people know that the iPhone comes from Apple, though, that if they changed it to Apple Phone, I think it would pick up that branding almost immediately.

I think that, honestly, I don't think it would skip too much of a beat. I think people will just accept it, that some people will continue to call it the iPhone regardless, like people still call it the iWatch. And I think that they would just move along and it would be Apple phone now and it would be done with. I think people would just get that, but that's just my view on it. I know there'd be many people that disagree.

I think it's going to happen at some point. I think it's going to happen at some point. I think this would be a point to do it i don't think they will do it but this could be the point yeah it's not gonna happen i don't think ever in the fullness of time anything is possible but the you know they have ios an iphone an ipad it is it has come to be this product category for them uh and they've and they're essentially beating it out of every other part of i mean itunes still exists right and i i think it's it's got huge name recognition it's their most popular product uh there's no reason

to get rid of it i think i think the idea what apple's really moving away from isn't the isn't the letter i it's the idea that every apple product is is badged with an i because the feeling there is apple is such a strong brand that it's more powerful to call something apple tv than itv and i think they're they're right about that but i think the iphone is the exception to that proves the rule the iphone is what is at this point the the root of it because the ip or the iPod is floating away into history. So I think it's very unlikely that this will happen. Could it happen? Sure.

It could happen at any point. Apple's doing all sorts of things that change things up. But I have a hard time seeing how all of their brand investment in iPhone and iPad and iOS is benefited by being apple phone and apple pad and apple os so uh i think not i mean when i say this like i think many people believe that i feel is going to happen almost imminently i don't think that like i'm saying that the change over after 10 years could be a point where you would do it but I don't think they will do it. I agree. When they do change this name, in my opinion,

it won't be Apple Phone because it will be the product that replaces it. And I don't think it will be called something phone anymore. And I'm thinking this is a long time in the future. Yeah. I don't think that just one day they have the next iPhone and then that next iPhone is called Apple Phone. I just think that this name won't last forever okay well we we agree we agree on that we agree on that i i i would buy into that which is what you're saying is the iphone won't ever change its name to apple phone but one day there will not be an iphone yeah and i think it will be

i don't even think we'll call it a phone anymore. This is maybe five years away. But I think that the iPhone name, that name, the i-name, will die at some point. I, comma, will die. Not me.

Not you personally. I never will. iPhone, iPad, iOS, that is going to go away, and I think it will be replaced with something, most likely Apple something. But who knows? I think, yeah, I think that's in the distant future. And in an outline in the chat room,

wants to know if Upgrade will still be running in the 2020s. I think we've got to, right? We've got to see the car thing through. I have no reason of wanting to close the show now. I think about this sometimes. Why would this show ever end? And I look at something like MacBreak Weekly, which has been going for five years now. I'm never letting you go, Jason.

We'll see. I mean, it would be... We'll see. We'll see. We'll see, Mike. Futurist promise to no one. No, I've said it before. I would prefer to be doing what I'm doing now for the rest of my career. be we'll see we'll see we'll see mike you and then futures promise to no no i i you know i've said it before i would prefer to be doing what i'm doing now for the rest of my career i think

the only thing that would preclude this is if i ended up um deciding to not be an independent worker anymore and work for somebody who wanted all of my you know all of my time and precluded me from from doing podcasting or tech podcasting or something like that but that's not the plan that's not that's not my intent at all for me as well i i want to provide some very important follow-up mac break weekly is 10 years old in now like what this week yeah this honestly this friday is mac break weekly's 10th anniversary so i just want to say to congratulations to the hosts of mac break weekly yeah one of my very first podcasts do you remember when that guy merlin man was on

mac break weekly i do remember that i remember uh we did some i i was in some videos that were the mac break videos i remember those fondly the uh the hd videos which my computer could barely play those are the ones congratulations to Leo and to the current hosts of MacBreakWeek I think Leo's probably the only one I know Andy came on relatively soon and he's been there

most of the time and now Rene has joined the ranks and I know you've been on the show a bunch of times I was so happy when I was on the show that time. So, yeah. Congratulations to MacBreak Weekly. And I look forward to, in about eight years' time, when people say that about us, Jason.

Ah, very nice. We'll be recording car casts every week. Sure. The Apple Car will be a fantastic podcast studio. Which sounds isolated. It'll have, yeah, it'll have sound isolation and noise canceling. And there'll be electric, so they'll be really quiet anyway. Exactly.

And a fast internet connection. And we will just be able to talk and use our arms to gesticulate and things like that because the car is driving itself anyway. And we'll probably be broadcasting in VR then anyway. Right. It'll be a mobile VR video studio as we travel in our silk jackets and navy jumpsuits,

which will be the fashion at the time. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Upgrade. If you'd like to find our show notes for this week, on over to relay.fm upgrade 101 if you have any questions follow up or anything like that for us always remember to use the hashtag ask upgrade because we find it all we collect it up and we answer your questions every single week thanks again to our sponsors, the great folk over at Hover, the lovely people at Mac, Weldon, and Eero. Thank you so much for Jason, to you for joining me, as you do every time. And even when I'm not here, you're always here.

You're always here, Jason, and I appreciate that. Jason is also always at SixColors.com, and he is on Twitter. He's at Jsnell, and he hosts many other shows at The Incomparable and a selection at RelayFM as well, including the newly launched Free Agents with David Sparks, with Max Barkey.

Thank you for listening. As always, I'm Matt Dymike. I am YKE. We do record this show live. You should head over to relay.fm slash live. We have a schedule page there so you can come and hang out

in the chat room if you so desire. We'll be back next week. We'll be live and in person next week as we celebrate RelayFM's second anniversary. Goodbye, everybody. Say goodbye, Mike Hurley. Goodbye, Mike Hurley.