Upgrade - 145: Wandered into the Unicorn Grove

Episode Date: June 12, 2017

Jason and Myke pick up many threads from WWDC 2017, including San Jose’s suitability as an event host, the first reviews of the iPad Pro, a bunch of news we didn’t know about during our last episode, and Jason’s close encounter with a functioning HomePod speaker.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 145 today's show is brought to you by encapsular blue apron and mail route my name is mike hurley and i am joined back over the skype waves by mr j Jason Snell. Present. Hi, Mr. Jason Snell. Hi. Jason, Kevin would like to know, did you drive to San Jose in your Nissan Leaf? I did not. I took a gas gasoline car. In fact, I took the minivan to San Jose

because it's got all the range in the world. And San Jose was, again, I kind of wanted to drive the Leaf to San Jose just for the challenge of it. And one of these days I'm going to do it where I'm going to drive that car somewhere that I don't need to go just to see how far I can drive it.

But I decided there was too much else going on. And then I was also giving Dan Morin a ride down and I didn't want to like you know subject him to my insanity of the the you know eco mode of the leaf to see if i could max out the range and things like that so i just i uh i left that for for my wife to commute in and we took the took the the gas car down poor nissan it's fine it's it's it's uh you know it specializes on on short trips okay but kevin did want to know then what is the furthest you have driven it if not to san jose i looked it up i think the furthest that we've driven the car is the 42 miles that i drove it from the dealership in santa rosa to my house um but i have driven it twice to Petaluma, which is probably

35 miles away to Twit, which I was the guest host on Twit yesterday. Because Leo Laporte is frolicking in the Galapagos with turtles and things.

There is a charger, a level 2 charger across the street from the Twit offices in this office park. So I drove up there, plugged in, walked across the street to Twit and then unplugged and drove home with mileage to spare. So I've done that a couple of times now and that totally works. Because with these electric cars, there's two different ranges there's the range of what you can just drive all the way out there and all the way back home without plugging in and then there's the range where you drive somewhere find a charging station plug in do what you're doing out there and then are able to drive home and obviously that's a longer range if i went to san jose that's what it would have been

there you go thank you kevin for your hashtag Snell Talk question. If you have a question you would like to open an episode of Upgrade, tweet it with the hashtag Snell Talk, and it will go into a spreadsheet for my choosing. Casey List was very upset with me because I hadn't asked a Snell Talk question that he had, but I didn't think that it was interesting enough, so it will never get asked.

So I will invite Casey to try again. He was talking about some kind of university thing. It really wasn't a very interesting question. The short version, I'm going to answer Casey's question, which is... Oh, I forgot you were there. Otherwise, I wouldn't have brought it up. Why am I... I think I answered it to him, but just for everybody.

Why do I have loyalty to the University of California at Berkeley? And the answer is, my dad went to the University of California at Berkeley? And the answer is my dad went to the University of California at Berkeley. I went to football games there from when I was a little kid. We still have the football season tickets that used to be my parents. My wife and I now have those. And I did go to graduate school there, too. So it is a family thing from when I was a kid. And that's i'm a cal fan despite that it's like being the cubs a cubs fan before they won the world series it's a it's not a team to be a fan of and i am

and that's just how it is that's part of the part of part of life part of a personality casey is a virginia tech fan so because i never trust casey's questions because i feel like he's trying to trick me into goading you into something like that you know like why are you a cow fan like with the implication of because cow sucks right so i never you know i can't trust him he's well he's not wrong um and yeah it's uh also the the cow logo is a script cow and uh i wear Cal apparel from time to time. And I remember I was on the East Coast. I was visiting Boston and I was having dinner with Rich Siegel, the author of BB Edit.

And he looked at my shirt, my Cal shirt, and said, who is Cal and why did you steal his shirt? Which I thought was funny. Like it's a little monogrammed, like some guy named Cal. Right. Well, this was part of the reason I never asked the question in the first place because I couldn't understand it. He just says, why does Jason like Cal? I'm like, who's Cal? Yeah. So I didn't ask the question.

Yeah. Who is he? And why is he so magnetic? Yeah. Anyway, so sometime in the fall, you'll be in the Bay Area, and I will subject you to American college football, and you will see the spectacle, and then you will understand. Or you won't understand. I don't know. I took on Jay Tomic to a college football game when he was out here and i got to expose all of all of essentially all of slovenia's uh tech journalism to college football in america it's a service you provide it is an occasional service i provide and that is Snell Talk. Lasers are way too soon this week. So we're back from WWDC. We're a week removed

from the keynote. And I just wanted to get a sense from you, Jason, kind of what your feeling about San Jose WWDC was like, like what you thought San Jose was like as a host of the conference. I thought it was great. i really liked the the

vibe of it i thought the i mean it's it's different so it takes some getting used to sure but let's let's see like getting there wasn't a problem there was parking um one day i actually parked on the street i mean there was there was parking. There were lots of different venues, but it was all walkable. At one point, I was with Dan Morin and David Sparks, and we were looking for someplace to have dinner. And we found, you know, we were just sort of wandering, and we ended up walking for quite a ways. But I looked on a map, and it looked like it was a million miles away to where we walked. But it wasn't because the scale of downtown San Jose is not particularly huge. Like it's all walkable.

There's lots of restaurants. It is kind of one of those places that feels like it's geared more for people during the day than it is in the evening. But the fact was there were so many evening events that it was pretty lively, I think, even in the evening. And you just keep running into people like blocks away from the convention center, you would see people you knew. So it was like, it really was like what we thought it might be where you kind of took over the downtown for the for the week. And, and that felt good. And San Francisco never really felt like that. So and personally, for me, even though it's inconvenient to drive all that way, it was much more kind of pleasant to be there and to hang around there than it was in San Francisco where, you know, I don't know, it's just so dense and so much else going on and kind of hard to get

from place to place and everything's packed. And that was my take on it. What was your take? I loved it. I hope they never go back to san francisco i hate downtown san francisco the area around mosconi that we have been at for the last four or five years like that i've been going there i've just come to really not enjoy it like it's just not a very nice area there are very nice parts of san francisco the mosconi center is not one of them that the area around there is just not it doesn't give me anything i don't i don't really enjoy it like san jose does have less food options and stuff like that and as you said less bar options and stuff but i got by vine i didn't you know everything i

needed was there plus it was really nice and the weather was fantastic i could walk around in t-shirt and shorts oh yeah and it was just lovely it was really really nice it had more personality to it in its own little way and as you say it felt much nicer as an attendee or somebody coming into town for that time because it just felt like wwdc had just taken over like the apple community just descended upon the town because it feels like that area is not really used for very much other than like people attending the like the convention center because there were like a couple of hotels like they're all clustered together and then a bunch of food places so it really felt like the it really just felt like everything was ours, and it was great. I loved it.

And also, I have a voice, which is great. That is the benefit of there not being so many bars and stuff open at night. It meant that people were either hanging out in the hotel, or what I did a few nights, which is having a bunch of people in our hotel room. We had a living area, sitting area in our hotel room. You could have eight or nine people in there, and it was totally fine. So that was just a thing that I did on a couple of occasions as well. And that was really lovely because I got to spend all the time with the people I wanted to spend time with and also keep my voice.

It was great. And there were more meetups and stuff to go to this year so I could see a bunch of people. It was great. I really, really, really loved it. And I hope that it is there for the foreseeable future yeah and there were places like to talk about i mean there is a definitely a wwdc bar culture that i'm not really a part of but um but i also found like there are a lot of places like i one night we hung out in the in the fairmont hotel lobby basically and there's a bar there and people were having drinks if they wanted to.

But it was a large space with comfortable seating and things like that. So it's different, but it is geared, that area has built up to handle conventions that can fit in the convention center, right? It is made for that. And so it's got enough to handle all of that. And yeah it it

doesn't have the feel of like wow we're in san francisco which i would argue feels a little bit like wow we're in chicago or wow we're in in new york where there's a real sense of place in san jose it feels like we're in a city that is a you know a middle-sized city it's not a super dense city and uh and so there's not that sense of like i can't believe we're we're in san jose right but it doesn't matter like it who cares it was a pleasant place to do it and i think that's uh i think that's more important i ironically is this irony okay i'm not going to say ironically i withdraw my comment is this like alanis morissette irony it could be um it did rain on thursday on the wedding day san francisco which i'm sure somebody was getting married and it was bad for them don't you think but uh uh i think steve jobs moved wwc to to San Francisco because he wanted Apple to appear more big time at a time when Apple wasn't being taken as seriously as he wanted it to be.

And he wanted it to be like, no, we're not minor league. We're going to take over San Francisco. I think it helped. And I think it especially helped with all the iPhone stuff as well, right? And that's why they did all those events up there. They moved WWDC up there. They did the events in Moscone. They did the events in Yerba Buena.

Then they did the last couple of keynotes at the Bill Graham Civic Auditorium. But I think Apple in its current status doesn't need to do that, right? Apple can go to San Jose and it's going to take it over and people will still come because it's Apple. And now it's more like it's at their home court, basically, because it's a lot closer to go to San Jose than it is to San Francisco. And now all their press events are going to be on campus as well, right? They're just like, we don't need this anymore. I would assume that all the press events are going to be in that new Steve Jobs Theater. So, yeah, I thought it was great. I thought it was successful. I hope they will continue as far as

I've not heard anything to dissuade me from the belief that future WWDCs will be in San Jose. Sometimes people ask like, well, if they have it in San Jose, would they have it somewhere else? The thing is, though, that WWDC, like Apple employees really participate in it. They're all over that event. And so they're not going to do a roadshow. I think it's San Jose is close to the campus. It's the right place for them to do it. The movement to San Jose doesn't mean that it's like it's about to go on tour. Like if they did it in New York this year, you could be like, well, maybe they'll do it. The movement to San Jose doesn't mean that it's about to go on tour. If they did it in New York this year, you could be like, well, maybe they'll do it in London, right? But no, they just did it somewhere that was physically closer

to their office. Yeah, for those who don't know Bay Area geography, it's quite a bit closer. It's quite a bit closer to Apple. Great all-round. Big fan. So I look forward to going back to san jose next year yeah and and next year we'll have the benefit of knowing more about the area that was one of

those things like we did the we did the um the relay meetup and it was really lovely at the at the um quilt and textiles museum yep but uh it was that was and and we heard from a lot of people who wanted to be there and couldn't because it was a fairly small venue. And our reasoning was in part just that we didn't know if people would come to WWDC. We hadn't seen any of the venues. It was pretty risky to put on an event sight unseen at all. And everybody sort of took that risk. Credit to John Gruber for getting the California theater and selling it out basically for the, for the talk show live. But next year, everybody's going to have a much better

idea about how it works. And I think it will be more of a, of a well-oiled machine. I think, I think with a couple of years, WWDC in San Jose could actually become incredible because everybody, and that doesn't just mean the people who go and the people who plan events but it also means the people in the services in san jose the hotels and all that i think everybody's going to get a better sense of like oh i see what this is now yeah and they you know yes they may raise their prices that may that may happen but i think but but i think there's enough you know there's enough flexibility there that yeah it'll be a little bit it'll be a little bit harder for them to do what maybe the

san francisco hotels did but i think in in general everybody's going to get a better sense and it could actually become pretty incredible as uh as time goes on to like take that place over for a week yeah i think that bars and restaurants will understand a little bit better like what they're supposed to be doing you know like right who are who are the nerds why are they here yeah exactly i don't know what this is all about and but i think it's going to change there was this coffee shop called uh social policy which was fantastic but that place was just like completely overrun the yeah it was it was really i spent some time in in another cafe that was just sort of like a block away that was uh that was really good that was a like a um yeah i forget the name of it now

but it was like an italian name it was very very nice two level cafe and i i hung out there for a few hours that i more people were basically taken over the upstairs and were using it as their base of operations but i think yeah i think people will get it there was also a perception from a lot of people this is something that i know that some people ran into that that this was an apple event through and through and so there was some confusion among the people like running the venues and all that they're like oh you're with apple this is all part of apple's thing it's like no we're not with apple we're kind of like independent on the outside and And so hopefully that education will happen too,

because, you know, that, that it gets a little weird when they're like, oh, well, you're with Apple, you're with a billion dollar company, you're worth, you know, you can billions of dollars, hundreds of billions of dollars. So this shouldn't be a problem. It's like, no, no, we're a podcast network. We have, we're tiny, we're not Apple. And hopefully that education process will go on too. So they'll understand that there's sort of like the main event and then there's all the ancillary events. So WebRTC is coming to Safari. This is something you've been excited about for a while. Why is this important to you?

And kind of, is it coming to iOS as well as on the Mac? It's funny. I have written about this. So WebRTC is this set of extensions for web browsers and it's in Chrome and Firefox and it's real-time communication. And the idea is

you should be able to do audio and video conferencing and other applications that use audio and video streams primarily without a plugin. You shouldn't need Flash. you shouldn't need silverlight, you should just be able to do this. So if you open a Google Hangout, in Chrome, it doesn't need a plugin. It does on Safari, but it doesn't need a plugin, I believe on Chrome, because it's using

WebRTC. And the the most, the best example I can give is that there are these two apps, Zencastr and Cast, that are podcasting apps. And they only work with Chrome and Firefox because they're using the WebRTC protocols. But what it means is you don't need a plug-in. You just use their site in the browser and you can hear other people and record. And it creates a whole podcast studio studio inside of web browser it's pretty cool so i've written about this a little bit we've talked about it a little bit i had somebody come up to me as i was walking out of the talk show live out of the california theater who is from apple who said web rtc it's did you hear it's in it's in the the new safari it's in

the betas um so i guess somebody was paying attention to these things I've been writing, which is nice. So enough to tell me not enough to like, it's not like I asked and they did it. It's more like they knew I was complaining and they like, okay, finally, you can stop complaining now. My understanding is that this is in macOS and iOS. is that this is in macOS and iOS. And my understanding from talking to some web developers is that Apple's... How is it phrased to me? Apple's interpretation of the WebRTC specification

is slightly different from Google's interpretation of WebRTC as implemented in Chrome. So my understanding is this isn't one of those things where one of these web app developers like Cast or Zencastr can just sort of turn off the browser detection for Safari and say, Safari, hooray, you can now use our tool. I think they have to do some work. I also saw a tweet from the Zencaster developers

saying that their approach on iOS is probably going to just be to build an app because that's the other way to do it. But in the long run, what this is going to probably mean is that apps that use WebRTC, including my podcast apps that I'm excited about, but also all sorts of other applications that currently only work on Chrome because they're using these features, will be supported in Safari on the Mac. And I believe that's going to be for High Sierra, Sierra, and El Capitan. I think they go three versions back when they do Safari updates. So I think it'll actually roll back a couple of versions. And in iOS 11, it should be there and if it's in ios 11 and these apps get updated to work with it it's a big deal because that means say uh sometimes i

have these incomparable podcasts where dan moran is like in a they release a new star wars trailer and dan is at a convention somewhere and we want to do a star wars trailer podcast and he's on an iphone and it's like he's just going to sound terrible because we can't record him. We are going to be able to do that, right? We will be able to all go to a link and he'll be able to go there on his phone and we'll record the podcast and it'll record his microphone and upload that recording in the background to us so that we can make a good sounding podcast. That's pretty awesome. And that's the promise here. So this may be the first crack in the wall in terms of being able to really legitimately do good sounding podcasts entirely on iOS that include multiple people and multiple platforms and all of those caveats. It means that Safari is a more complete web citizen and you don't end up in these situations, which I hate when I get in there because I'm a Safari user where I get to a site and they say, oh, you need to use Chrome for this. I keep Chrome around for like three or four specific reasons, and I would prefer not to.

Yeah, I mean, I still use it as my web browser, right, Chrome? I do. right chrome i do but i would like to be able to have the flexibility on ios to eventually record podcasts in a pinch right with a usb microphone and an adapter right that that's what i find interesting about this it's what i hope it means it gets implemented at some point it sounds like ios 11 may give us that even if even if it is not what we would prefer to do right because there are other issues going on just the fact that it will be if it's capable of doing it that means in a pinch or if you are on like for me it's a lot of times it's like i'm taking this trip and i i have one podcast to record so i have to bring a whole like laptop setup and it may be enough to to realize to make me realize like oh i don't need to that one i can do just on my iPad, and it'll be fine.

That's great. Talking about iPads, the iPad 10.5-inch Pro thing. Need a good name for that. Haven't got it yet in my head. The reviews are out, and I want to point everyone to Mac Stories. Federico had a review unit of the new iPad Pro, and he wrote a lovely little review about it so you should go and check it out.

I expect that before next week's episode we'll both own new iPad Pros so we'll be able to talk about them next week. They come out, I think, tomorrow? Yeah, I think that's right. And yes, I anticipate that we'll have new iPad Pros to talk about next week. I liked Federico's review

and how he, because he, like me, is a 12.9-inch iPad Pro user. And it's funny because on Twit yesterday, Harry McCracken was there, and his primary computer is also a 12.9-inch iPad Pro. He's like Federico. He uses it more than he uses a computer a you know a pc it's it's ipad all the way and I like how Federico because I was curious was like it's pretty good but the screen you know it's not the screen's not as good as the 12.9 because it's smaller and everything's a little

bit smaller and I like how he was really generous about how impressive a product it is while also kind of giving you the sense that if you're a if you're a fan of the 12.9 he's he he seems to not be convinced that people who like the 12.9 that this extra space on the 10.5 is going to really be enough to make you go down from a 12.9 to a 10.5. And I think the fact that the 12.9 still exists suggests that they had that conversation at Apple. And it was very clear that the answer was, no, there's still a place for the bigger iPad. Yeah. Well, that, that math that we spoke about, the Dan Provost did, it didn't. Yeah, they didn't do it. No, it's a, it's a, uh, it's same, It's the same resolution in terms of pixels per inch as the old 9.7. It's just got more screen space.

So it's a new resolution in terms of pixel dimensions. So it's a little bit bigger, but still, if you run two apps side-by-side on a 10.5 iPad Pro, they're both using basically the phone layout, not the iPad layout. iPad Pro, they're both using basically the phone layout, not the iPad layout. And side by side on a 12.9, you get two basically vertical iPad apps, traditional iPad layout size side by side. And so that changes the equation. It has positives in that if it was an iPad mini resolution, everything would be way smaller on the display and it would make the touch targets harder. It would be a tricky decision to make for a mainstream iPad to make that resolution that much higher.

But this is the trade-off. The trade-off is it's still a little cramped. It's not as cramped as the 9.7, but it's still cramped. So more next week i think on that yes more next week there's so much to talk about about these devices that we really need to play with them more ourselves first i think and also i'm planning on putting 11 on mine um and just go well that's the a lot of the reviews that's unsaid like i i've spent um about half an hour using one of these 10.5 review units in a demo area at WWDC, but they were running 11. And that says it all right, that Apple would rather you see these things with a developer beta than the shipping OS because this is the fully realized version of this.

And so quite rightly, a lot of the reviews basically say, well, this is good, but what really is going to make it great is, I mean, a lot of the reviews are debates about, can it replace your laptop? And some say yes, and some say no, which I think is silly because I think yes is the answer there, but reasonable people disagree. It's fine. But a lot of them say, well, maybe, but when iOS 11 comes out, yes. So that's part of the trick of but a lot of them say well maybe but when ios 11 comes out yes so that's the that's part of the trick of writing a review of something like this and federico definitely had to deal with it which is you want to talk about ios 11 but it's not out yet and your review unit didn't come with it and so like your perception of it is like what's here now and then what's the coupon in the box

for the promise of the real features in the fall. So it's a weird situation. But as we were last week, my enthusiasm, and I think this is true of you too, my enthusiasm about the future of the iPad and how awesome it's going to be to use iOS 11 with these new iPads, my enthusiasm has not dimmed even a little bit.

I am very excited about where this is going in terms of being a productivity person on an iPad. All right. Today's show is brought to you in part by Blue Apron. Not all ingredients are created equal. Fresh, high-quality ingredients do make a real difference with your food. So it's important to know where those ingredients come from. Blue Apron is the number one fresh ingredient and recipe delivery service in the US. They set the highest quality standards for their community of over 150 local farms, fisheries, and ranches across the United States. For less

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by going to blueapron.com slash upgrade. You will love how good it feels and tastes to create incredible home-cooked meals with Blue Apron. So don't wait. Go to blueapron.com slash upgrade. We thank Blue Apron for their support. Blue Apron, a better way to cook. So being at WWDC, we mentioned this on the show.

I mentioned it a bunch. Being at WWDC, recording as quickly as we do. By the way, three and a half hours from keynote end to upgrade being published. I think that was pretty impressive. Yeah. Felt real good. Felt real good. That's what we were going for, is to get it out there as quick

as we could. First and never worst. That is the mantra of the keynote upgrade. It is a thing that we, me, and you like to do. We like to have the show out as soon as we can. We're a Monday podcast. We're a Monday podcast, and the keynote's on a Monday.

We're going to do that. How could we not do that? Exactly. And we want to get it out quickly, because there are a lot of people that immediately want to hear it, right? And so we can provide that. It's very important to us.

But it does mean that there's a bunch of stuff that we missed. So our friends over at Mac Stories rounded up a bunch of little things, kind of the little details that maybe didn't get any coverage from Apple on stage, and I wanted to run through a few of them, Jason, in case our listeners don't know as well.

I think we need to do it, yeah. We didn't get the breakdown to... We didn't get the chance to break down things because we were in the bubble, right? Exactly. That post-keynote bubble. So one of them is that... I guess something me and you have been talking about

for a long time, but now it's here. I wonder what we think of it. Which is that watchOS 4, and watchOS 4, the beta of the next version of the operating system for the watch, the home screen can be replaced by an alphabetical list of apps instead of the honeycomb. I'm looking forward to trying it.

I'm not going to install watchOS 4 beta for a while because I use my Apple Watch. Yeah. But I am intrigued by this. I hope that it's good. I think, yes, that list is potentially long you should probably everybody should probably better curate what apps actually are on their watch but like the idea of just scrolling through with the crown and finding an app alphabetically instead of having

to go like pick through that weird thing it doesn't work for me i i don't love going to the honeycomb so i'm i'm hoping this will be a better experience. Here's my thinking on this. I don't like the idea of a scrolling list of stuff, right? Because it's kind of slow and inelegant. But with my Apple Watch, I can never remember where the apps are on my home screen because I very rarely go there. At least of an alphabetical list, I will know where to go to find the one I'm looking for.

So whilst it's kind of like a Band-Aid over a gunshot wound as like a solution to a problem, I think it works, because it's not elegant, it's going to take longer than you'd want, but at least you'll know where to go. Yeah, I think that's not elegant. It's going to take longer than you'd want, but at least you'll know where to go. Yeah, I think that's about it. I mean, you can use Siri to launch apps on the Apple Watch. There's lots of different ways to do it.

Complications are a really good way to do it. But I think it's good to offer this option. But in practice, that's the question. Is it really going to be better to scroll through a list alphabetically than to kind of poke around and slide around and try to find that icon it's like which one is the timer and which one is the alarm clock right it may be better just to have that list but we'll see and people get the choice right it doesn't if you if you don't like one the other other is still there. I think the dock solved the problem for me, honestly. But just for that every now and then, I think that this is a good idea.

Docking complications really made that thing so unimportant. It's rare that I go there. And mostly when I do go there, it's sort of like, oh, yeah, I need to set an alarm, at which point I should probably just use Siri because it does that just fine. And sometimes I forget and then I'm in the honeycomb. And no, no, I didn't want to do that. So yeah, we'll see. But it's good that that option exists.

There is a new accessibility option called Typed Siri, which gives you a text box at the bottom of the screen when you invoke Siri. I've also seen that regular Siri questions have an edit button on them, so even without enabling the option, you're able to correct what Siri heard you say, so you can fix it, and then it will re-answer the question.

So I think that this is good. This is good to have. I think the ability to now, in some cases or all cases, type to Siri instead of talking to Siri. And as an aside, the new Siri voice is unbelievable. The new Siri voice is very good. Very good.

I'll miss the old lady, but the new lady is doing a great job. You could fool me with that, I think. It's very impressive. Jason, I'm sure you're very happy about the fact that you can now share icloud storage with family sharing yeah this is something that has been a long time coming but um i was telling my daughter about this that she'll actually be able to like back up her photos and her phone um because we've got they they increase the terabyte option to two terabytes and we're on the terabyte option because i have more than 200 gigabytes of photos and that's that's it you either pay for 200 gigabytes or you pay for two terabytes there's nothing in between so uh yeah my now my

family will be able to have access to that two terabyte portion which means they'll all back up they'll all be able to have their photos stored. We didn't get any announcements about sharing photos in the photo library, but at least the storage pool can be shared, which means that like, I won't have to have my wife paying for her amount. And then my daughter just having the five gigabyte amount and all of that. it'll all just be we'll pay one bill for the two terabytes i'm already paying for and everybody will back back up freely into it with all their ios devices it'll be a much better situation and two terabytes for the price of one terabyte is good like right like two terabytes is more than enough for a family i

think yeah i think that this is a sign that apple is like their prices are more competitive and now their storage is getting even even more competitive i you know i hesitate to say it because everybody's got a everybody's got a reflexive horror story about it but i think apple is making some serious strides with their cloud stuff these days like the iCloud photo syncing works um I I am hoping that hi Sierra hi Sierra be high potentially feels uh like handles the iCloud drive stuff syncing better that that's settled down a little bit but with this two terabytes I started to think you know maybe I should start using iCloud Drive, because Dropbox has still not brought Dropbox Infinite to regular users, where you get to say, like, store this, store this on the server, I want to be able to see it on my

computer, but I don't want the file to actually reside on my computer until I click on it. That's a feature that they now offer. So you can use that terabyte of data within Dropbox, but it's only for business customers. So I can't use it. And I with this two terabytes in iCloud, I started to think, you know, maybe I should actually try to store stuff in iCloud, because it will be able to dynamically like remove it if it needs the storing storage space. So I could store two terabytes worth, even though I've got a 500 gigabyte SSD on my iMac, I could store, you know, a couple of terabytes of data and it wouldn't be a problem because it would all be dynamic. And that's, I don't think the way Apple approaches it really works for me, but I'm starting to think about it

just because this is, Apple keeps iterating with its cloud stuff and making it more reliable and making it more competitive. And, you know, I don't, And, you know, I think it's to be taken seriously. I'm not saying they've leaped ahead of everybody, but I am saying that I feel like Apple has been doing the right thing with their cloud stuff for a little while now, and it's really showing. There is native screen recording coming to iOS 11 with the new Control Center action.

Yeah, I saw that. You can add a little record button. Talk about an esoteric feature that nobody would expect. I mean, I think the original iPhone OS, you couldn't even take screenshots, right? Because who would want that except for journalists? And it turns out everybody who can't fit a tweet and writes it in notes and takes a screenshot of it and then tweets the screenshot. It's actually this big thing. And there's a screenshot interface now where you can immediately tap on after you take a screenshot and crop it and share it right there. So Apple is embracing the fact that people want to do screen captures of maybe of games they're playing or who knows

what else, and they want to take screenshots. And it's cool. Yeah, it'll do it. It'll do it and record audio. And I actually started to wonder if, and uh it's cool yeah it'll do it it'll do it and record audio and i actually started to wonder if and i haven't tried this because it's a beta and nothing works right yet but i wonder somebody asked me and i had already thought of it could you do a screen recording of a skype call and then take the recording and export the audio and have local audio of your uh of your podcast i don't know maybe you could i don't know i'm not sure if it captures the audio from applications i think well no but i think it might capture your microphone audio i'm not sure or maybe it's just the system audio anyway it's it's these are features that i don't think i would ever have

predicted i would never have predicted that apple would build a screen recording system into iOS. That just seems so outlandish. And there it is. Just pop it on the control center. You get a little record button and you're good to go. It's just like doing a movie capture inside QuickTime on the Mac. You get a little red recording icon and it happens. you know, little red recording icon, and it happens.

There is also now a limited edition Rainbow Pride band for the Apple Watch, one of the nylon bands. It's a six-color band. It's exactly what you wanted. Yeah, and it's now available for people, and it's directly from Apple. It's in stores as well as online. You can get it. And I already ordered mine.

Cool. I'm going to hopefully pick mine up tomorrow when I go and stake out my Apple store for iPads. Yeah. I'm going to pick one up. Good job. Because I think it looks real great. I saw a couple of people wearing it at the end of last week.

It's a great, great watch band. I think it looks a lot. I saw a couple of people wearing it at the end of last week. It's a great, great watch band. I think it looks a lot of fun, and it's awesome. Yeah, I really like it a lot. Yeah, and it is the classic six-colored Apple rainbow, which is beautiful. With iOS 11, AirPods gain the ability to skip tracks. So not only can you do forward and back track skipping on the AirPods, you can now set each left and right AirPod to have a different function. Yeah, that's right.

For example, you can tap left for Siri, tap right for pause, or you could maybe have tap right for pause, tap left for skip. I think you can only do one function for each ear, but there are more options that you can choose from as well.'s right and once you this is the crazy thing once you make a change with an ios 11 this functionality stays set even when it's connected to an ios 10 device right because what it's really doing is it's programming the airpods to have what bluetooth command they're sending which they can do from anywhere. Because it's whatever the AirPod OS would be,

that's what it's updating on the device, you should say, rather than what the iPhone's connected to. So I'm really excited about Pause and Skip. That's what I'm pleased about that they're doing. That's how I'm going to set them up. Although I maintain that I still really hate the feeling of tapping the AirPods in my ears.

I don't like it. I've gotten used to it. I avoid it whenever possible. My favorite ways to control the AirPods are to take one out of my ear or to use my Apple Watch. I use my Apple Watch. That's how I do it. But I do sometimes do the double tap thing. And I'm actually very excited about this because this is what I asked for.

And it seemed like an obvious way that if it was capable of doing it, that they could do it with the AirPods to have different gestures with left and right. And having the skipping be programmable too that's pretty awesome so that's that's kind of it i i think i think they're reluctant to do like triple tap for this and quadruple tap for that they don't want to do that but that's fine and i i i'm okay with that i think just letting you program left and right for the for that double tap to be what you want it to be. Great news. And you went ears on with the HomePod. I did. I listened to a HomePod.

You listened to a HomePod. So you were given the ability somewhere in WWDC to listen to a HomePod compared to an Echo and a Sonos Play 3, right? Yep, that's exactly it. So I got to... Yes, I was wandering lonely as a cloud when I happened upon a Sylvan Glade.

There were unicorns and rainbows and also a HomePod. I want to know how, in your opinion, the HomePod stacked up against these other devices. Did you have any chance to experience the room-filling sound that Apple was talking about? I did. I experienced room-filling sound.

So, yeah, it's a... Look, it's unfair. I guess people don't know, but it's totally unfair to put this thing next to an Amazon Echo because the Amazon Echo doesn't sound very good. And it was never built for music, really. I mean, it plays music, but it's not built for that.

It plays music fine. And my family uses it to play music all the time because it's so easy to just call up a song and have it play it that they use it all the time. And we have so many better speakers in the house, but they use the Echo. The Echo is also a lot cheaper than the HomePod. But the Sonos Play 3 is a good example. That is a product that is about the cost of a HomePod and generally does not sound as good as the HomePod, I would say, having heard them both in the same

space. Although again, the Sonos Play 3, I don't know whether it was tuned properly or anything like that. I'm pretty sure the HomePod doesn't sound as good as the Sonos Play 5, but the Play 5 is way more expensive than the HomePod, I believe. And the other thing I noticed about the Play 3 is that the Play 3 is a speaker box, right? So even though it's stereo and the HomePod is not, technically, it's got lots of speakers, but it's really just doing a sort of single sound field. It's doing its own processing to shoot different parts to different directions. But the Sonos Play 3, my point is when you're sitting in front of it, it sounds really great and then you walk to the side of it and it sounds like

the noise is being pointed somewhere else because it is it's being pointed right in front of it and the HomePod doesn't sound like that. The HomePod is engineered to fill the room in the sense that it doesn't feel like you're out of the sweet spot it's trying to make the entire room the sweet spot and it sounds pretty good. The bass is good the treble separation is good. They're doing a lot of processing. Like I said, they are trying to fire different parts of the music off in different speakers in order to give you this distinct sound and room filling sound. And, and I think my question on the music

side is what's Apple doing to process this stuff? And how's it going to sound in its final iteration? Will there be settings? Will it intelligently detect what kind of music it is and alter how it does it? Can you turn that sort of processing off? Because I know that there are going to be some music lovers who will, most people won't care, but there'll be some music lovers who will be freaked out by what it does to the music in terms of basically remixing it on the fly in order to get what Apple's setting says is the best sound. I do think it would be great if it was really intelligent, and we don't have any details of this now, and said, oh, this is classical. I'm going to do something different.

And this is pop. I'm going to do something different and this is pop i'm going to do something different right but um we don't know whether it's got presets or something that's dynamic that's just like so much of the home pod it's kind of a mystery all of it sounded pretty good except um the one example i keep giving that i thought was an interesting example of how the home pod is is manipulating the sound is stevie wonder's superstition which when i was standing right in front of the sonos play 3 and standing in front of the home pod i felt like the play 3 actually did a better job of representing it than the home pod because the home pod sort of split it out and made it kind of um more airy almost like it's got different sounds kind of

coming from different places because that's what the home pod does and that song it struck me like it didn't sound right that the kind of crunchy compressed 70s stevie wonder sounded better crunchy and compressed rather than kind of decompressed and flung out to various portions of the room via the HomePod. So, but, you know, they've got six months to work on the software that processes the audio. And, but, you know, again, Apple owns Beats. Beats products tend to skew, like Beats has an opinion about what makes music sound good. And people who are like real audio aficionados can often hate that because they don't think that it's a true like representative sound. And that's just an argument that's going to happen. So maybe the HomePod will be like that in that they're going to process that sound to something that they think

is a crowd pleaser. And fair enough, they probably should do that if most people will enjoy it that way. I think the question is, you know, will it do that? To what degree does it do that? And most of the songs I heard sounded fantastic on the HomePod. It was just the Stevie Wonder song that I thought, although it sounded good, it didn't sound right. And that was interesting to me to have that experience. And then there was also in the Glade over by one of the unicorns, there was a second HomePod. And I did get to hear one song in stereo pair mode where you can take two HomePods and have one basically handling left and one handling right. And that does fill the room with even more kind of impressively directional sound where I felt like I was in a more like a surround sound space where um i could i could get a lot of stereo detail

whereas my understanding is that the home pod doesn't actually um do try to do directional stereo kind of detail when it's just operating by itself it's basically treating it as a mono signal and then doing its own secret sauce which seems a little weird to me but yeah since i've got seven speakers that they couldn't like process the stereo signal and try to give it a little weird to me, but since they've got seven speakers that they couldn't process the stereo signal and try to give it a little bit of directionality, but it seems not to. What did you think of how the HomePod looked? I don't know. I think it looks weird, but that would get used to it. I guess they all kind of look weird, don't they? The Amazon Echo looks weird, too.

It's like, what's inside that canister that's sitting on your kitchen table? It's this kind of computery pod with the perforations around it. And this one's got this kind of fabric-y looking thing on it. And I don't know. It is a pod that sits in your home. I mean, it's not wrong. That's what it is. And I think, yeah, I think like the name, I think people will get used to it.

It's a new sort of thing. I think Apple's trying to make it not super obtrusive. And they make claims that that's all sort of sound conducting goodness, 3D fabric, whatever. I don't know. But yeah, I'm intrigued by it. But I will also point out that it's it's priced as a premium speaker it's 349 so it is not priced as a uh an affordable digital assistant box that will play sound but not very well like apple seems at least with this first product apple did not choose to

compete directly against the echo like they are they are creating a sonos caliber speaker with siri embedded in it and that's a different market than the google home and the amazon echo so that's important to keep in mind also we have never heard it respond to a siri command that is a completely like other than the the slides they put up at the keynote we have to imagine that right now and i suspect that's in part because of the marketing push they put up at the keynote we have to imagine that right now and i suspect that's in part because of the marketing push they want to do which is to make it about music it's in part because the series stuff is still being worked on i mean there were no siri demos of the of the home pod at wwdc that you you couldn't touch it couldn't speak to it you could look at

it and you could if you were lucky and you wandered into the the unicorn grove listen to it but that's it do you know if there is a touch screen on the top of the home pod it seems like this is something that people are in disagreement over on the internet so it looked like the demo units that i was seeing it looked like there was some sort of siri animation thing happening on the top of it keeping in mind these are canned like it's not a real product yet right so they were playing that i was told that you can get volume up and down buttons on there although i didn't see them so it sounds like there is a display and it does have some touch sensitivity on it, but it's on this, on the top of this device. So to call it a touch screen in the

way that we think of touch screens, I think is probably inaccurate. It does seem to have some sort of a display with some sort of touch on it but it's not really meant to be an interface other than for the most basic things like um like changing the volume or maybe pausing or something like that but they i got no details about it other than that there would there you know you could you could touch for volume up and down and there would be volume up and down buttons on the top and since there don't seem to be physical buttons as far as i could tell that suggests that there is touch sensitivity um on part of the panel. It's also possible that there's touch sensitivity on certain parts of the panel and that it's not a touch

screen, but there's a touch, you know, there are a couple of touch areas that light up when they're activated and that it's not, you know, it depends on the engineering of it. Like it may not be that you could program any sort of button to be on there. Maybe there's a certain area where there's a button that can light up that you can touch. I don't know, but there's something going on up there. If I was going to place my bet, it would be that this is not a touchscreen. Like, it's not a screen that's going to have content and information displayed on it. I think that's what people are still kind of hoping, that this is what it's going to have content and information displayed on it i think that's what people are still kind of hoping that this is what it's going to be i think it certainly won't because

it's not it's not even something that you could literally look at conveniently because it's it's basically on the top on a flat surface it's on a on a horizontal plane parallel to the the the table it's sitting on it's not a place to read things so i think it'll be like used for feedback like color maybe like like the ring think of the ring on an amazon echo like that ring is animating and showing you color to indicate things that is more easily seen though because it's around the edge and not the top exactly you know yeah although the way that it's the way that it's structured you can still see that again if all you're looking for is like a little color feedback you can see that on the on the home pod too but that's about all um and then yeah maybe if you touch it it uh it presents

you with a couple of touch buttons i i think it may be a touch surface maybe not multi-touch but like a touch surface that will give you kind of basic like tap here to increase the volume when you're when you put your hand on it like it'll let you physically interact a little bit with it but it's not i i would not call it a a display it's more like an ambient interface kind of thing okay it's my guess all right jason do you want to tell us about mail route well this episode of upgrade is brought to you by mail route a secure hosted email filtering service that you can have up and running in just minutes. I did it.

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There was a session at the end of WWDC this week about podcasting. There was? It was full of some expected and unexpected things that have been added to Apple Podcasts. One of them is, I want to say a welcome change, but then I think it kind of colors the rest of my discussion in a way that i'm not expecting it to sound like um which is rss enhancements so this is something that i have been expecting apple to do for a while to find ways to enhance the rss spec for podcasts which apple kind of created in its current form hence why there are so many tags that say itunes something yeah and

everything else looks for those tags all other podcast apps are built around these tags that apple created for their itunes feeds back it's kind of how all podcast feeds are built using these tags yeah for people who don't know it's rss and and podcasting you know yeah it's a standard but apple has been in it so long and they created a whole bunch of these custom tags that are all preceded by iTunes to enhance the

data that iTunes displayed on a Mac in 2005 basically and if you're running your own podcast app now you would be silly to not take advantage of that metadata. And so everybody reads it. And so it's not standard standard, but it's basically a standard. And it means that Apple, because it's so popular as a podcast platform, I think podcast app on iOS is

the number one by far podcast listening app in existence on any platform it is uh it is able to put in new tags for its use that everybody's going to do and then everybody every other app can pick those up because it's totally open it's not like apple has secret sauce here and uh and so they did they made a lot of enhancements um some of which they already had in some other form. But I think this is a kind of a big batch trying to see what podcasts are doing today and how the current set of tags in a podcast feed aren't good enough. So they added a whole slew of them. company that creates its own cms for podcasts therefore yeah its own feeds i would like to extend my thanks to apple for not changing the names of the tags from itunes to apple because in theory they should right because it's not itunes anymore it's apple podcast so i would just like to thank apple for not doing that right so

yeah i don't now have to rewrite everything but what because what they've given are additional pieces of functionality on top of what is existing and these are really um all focused around seasons because there have been lots of podcasts plus a very popular podcasts and the clue is in the name for how some of these tags are written, that are for seasons. And I think Apple are referring to these as standard and serial. And I don't think it's like just for serial, just that these shows are serialized,

hence where the name serial came from in the first place, but it is funny. There was already a sort order tag, which they are replacing basically with this, that let you say, because Stephen Wilson from Apple told me about it at one point, and I used it on Total Party Kill and Incomparable Radio Theater.

And the idea that some podcasts should be listened to from the start and not from the most recent, like Upgrade you should listen to the most recent episode because we're very topical. But something like Total Party Kill, which is a Dungeons and Dragons podcast that I do and it's storytelling

and you start at the start of the story. The latest episode will make no sense. You should start at the beginning. So now there's a new version of that called the iTunes Type and that lets you choose episodic or serial. And so, yeah, if you want people to start at the beginning,

you say serial. This podcast is meant to be serial and then people will it'll be sorted properly with the first episode at the top i assume there will be user ui that will allow for like collapsing and stuff like that inside of applications exactly so so the the they also didn't break like the standard title of an episode because a lot of times i think relay does this and incomparable does this um and a lot of podcasts do your episode title would be like the episode number, colon, the name of the show, or maybe season two, episode two, colon, the name of the episode. That kind of catch-all title tag is still there, but Apple has introduced a pure title

tag, which just is the name of the episode, an episode tag, which is just the number of the episode, and a season tag, which is the season number that the episode lives inside. Now, I have some questions about this in terms of how it's interpreted in the podcast app in iTunes and then how it will be interpreted by other apps that don't follow those things. Because I'm not quite sure if you say that it's season two, episode one, and you're in a regular podcast app, does it display that as just another episode one? And is that weird? I don't know all of those details, but it's clever. And it's one of the things that it will make for a way better interface for podcast listeners.

Because now the apps won't have to do any funny business to try and extrapolate episode numbers from titles or things like that. They'll just have the metadata. They'll have a raw, clear title with no junk in it. They'll have an episode number. They'll have a season number if available. And a summary field that's a single descriptive sentence in plain text. And that's good. Like that is going to make cleaner interfaces with a lot less junk in them for everybody who listens to podcasts in the long run.

Yeah. There are also the ability to add trailers and bonus episodes too as denoted in the feeds. This is the one I think of all of them that i could see us using um at relay fm we don't do currently any shows that are seasonal in nature i don't i can think of there might be some shows that might want to take advantage of this i don't know but well your uh your inquisitive did a couple of seasons right i that was what i was thinking of yeah and and total party kill in the incomparable radio theater and not playing three shows on the That was what I was thinking of, yeah. And Total Part of Kill and the Incomparable Radio Theater and not playing three shows on the Incomparable Network all do seasonal stuff,

and it would be pretty good for that. But you're right. A lot of podcasts do trailers for a few reasons, not only to hype up a show, but to get it in iTunes, because you can't publish a podcast with nothing in it so you have to have like a either your first episode but you kind of want people to know that it's coming so you post like a zero episode that is this podcast is coming subscribe now and you'll

get it when it starts and that's a teaser or a trailer and now there's an episode type called trailer that you can mark that treats it differently. If it's seasonal, it'll actually say, here's the trailer for the season. If it's for the whole podcast, it'll say, here's the trailer. It'll be separate in the interface. And again, any podcast app can read that and display it in an appropriate way. And then bonus, that's a great example of 5x5 did After Dark. The Incomparable did Bonus Track.

We occasionally have these, Relay does B-Sides. We occasionally do this thing where we've got, it's not in the episode, but it's like additional material. And what this would allow you to do if you chose to do it, and I was thinking to myself,

I'm not sure whether I would choose this, but if this was widely implemented, I might, which is rather than have like a separate feed for your bonus stuff, what this does is let you put it in the feed and just say, here's the episode, here's the bonus, mark it as bonus. And then in the podcast app,

it looks like it will be like shown that way where you'll see the episode and then you'll also see, oh, and there's also bonus material you can listen to, which depending on how that's done could actually be really clever and cool um so we'll see but these are all things that podcasts really do and that the podcast spec didn't really know how to handle and it made it all messy so i'm very happy that apple has stepped up here because who if not them then who like i think it had to be

apple to do this so i'm i'm keen to see how all of this is implemented across the board from just technically and from a user interface perspective. Because there could be some things here that we might want to take advantage of. I don't know, there might have been some ideas that we have not pursued because it would have been tricky to do. So I'm keen to see how a lot of this stuff shakes out. The other story, which got like just a couple of minutes at the end of this presentation, is that in December, I think they said, towards the end of the year, Apple is going to be opening up some new analytics for podcasts. And if Apple is going to do any analytics, this is the right way to do it. So it's all anonymized data and using aggregate listener behavior.

And this will be statistics and analytics for what the Apple Podcasts app can work out from you listening on any of their platforms. So there are listener numbers. Now, obviously, these are just listeners that have just listened inside of the Apple Podcast app. And the big thing is that Apple is going to show podcasters how many people are listening in Apple Podcasts, where they start, stop, and skip in the episodes. So this is really interesting so people are going to be able to

find out where their listeners are skipping ahead yeah we've talked about this in in the past where um we don't actually know generally if you play an episode we only really know that you downloaded it. That's it. Like that's, that's it. I saw it stream in it. Yeah, exactly. So to have the actual play number is huge. And then we're going to be able to know how long do people listen and where do they skip and, and how many of those things. And that's, I think that's really valuable because we're going to, any of those things. And that's, I think that's really valuable because we're going to, um, just being on the positive side here. Like I think, I think knowing when, uh, people tune out on a long podcast is really useful. And if you do ads, knowing that you should probably put your ads when people are listening and not when they've tuned out. Cause I I've been on long podcasts where the ads are in the first hour and I've been on long podcasts where the ads are in the first hour. And I've been on long podcasts where the ads are spread across

two and a half hours. And if I were the advertiser, I'd probably prefer to be in the first hour and not in, you know, at two hours and 10 minutes, right? And so we'll have numbers that'll say, oh, geez, yeah, we should not. All the ads should be earlier on. And it does mean that if those advertisers get those numbers, they're going to be able to say, I don't want to be in the last half hour. I want to be in the first hour. And that's fair. It also lets us as podcasters know, oh, you know what? Doing those two-hour shows, nobody likes it. They never get to the end. Their patience ends after an hour and 15 minutes. Maybe we should shoot for that. And I think that's really valuable too. And we don't, we don't know that. And then, yeah, we're going to find out what

percentage of people skip podcast ads. And you could argue that that will be bad because the advertisers will get mad because they'll know that. But I don't know, in most, there's a lot of complexity here, right, Mike? Because like, if you're a brand advertiser, who's like Coke, it's great. Ford, you should buy a Ford truck. It's different Because if you're a brand advertiser who's like, Coke, it's great. Ford, you should buy a Ford truck. It's different than if you're a direct response advertiser who's paying for people to put in a code or visit a URL where they know it came from a particular podcast. It's a different kind of business. And I'm not sure one of those is as affected by it as the other is. and their shows, but can't because Coke want to know exactly how many people are listening to their ad, which is something we can't provide.

Exactly. So these companies have been asking Apple to do this for a while. And I'm happy that what it seems that Apple is doing, or at least beginning with, is basic and it's anonymized because the whole thing that we were talking about before is how it could get really bad. So I'm pleased that they're going down this route. At least if this is just the beginning, they're at least showing good intentions with how they want to track it all. So the thing is, how it's going to affect the medium as a whole is unknown. But if I was going to put money on it, i don't think it's going to have a big effect i think a lot of people were thinking now ah well this means there's going to

be no more advertising because no one listens to the ads well i can tell you that people do because in case you hadn't noticed basically all of our advertisement ends in one of two things. Go to this URL, use this code. And it is the redemption of visits of these two things combined with whatever the advertiser wants to track plus any other measurements that they have for their own analytics and their own performance, right? So all they'll see is visits or redemptions. Now, they have their own analytics and their own performance right so like all they'll see is

visits or redemptions now they have their own internal metrics as to whether that's good for them or not right they'll know what they're trying to meet target wise the fact that these are still happening and those advertisers keep coming back shows you that this is working now i will tell youarespace, they're still tracking all this stuff. Right? They are an advertiser that you might think, by this point,

has maybe got enough. But I can tell you that they still track it. They track those redemptions. Like every other advertiser that I know that uses this stuff. And we have some advertisers that all they're doing

is just trying to get their name out to the world. And they may be the ones that become the most interested in how many people are actually listening. That's what I was going to say is I actually think this is going to be really great for brand advertising. And Squarespace, I think, is an interesting example where because of the nature of the medium, Squarespace has been doing direct response in their advertising and measuring it. Because how else do you measure podcast advertising effectiveness? It's either that or how many jokes are made about Squarespace because everybody hears advertising and measuring it because how else do you measure podcast advertising effectiveness it's either that or how many jokes are made about squarespace because everybody hears their ads on

podcasts but like how do you do it direct response is the only way which is funny because what i would argue squarespace has been doing all along is running a branding campaign ultimately what they want is not they don't expect you're necessarily going to start a website now but they are expecting that when you think of starting a website, you'll think, oh, I could do that on Squarespace and then sign up, maybe with a code or maybe just on your own. But if you're Coke, if you're Ford, if you're somebody like that, that's a pure brand advertiser, they could say visit Ford.com slash podcast 123, right? But they don't want to do that. So for them, they're going to be able to go to a and it's not going to be us right it's going to be a giant ad sales uh network like

midroll maybe and say we want to buy these podcasts and get feedback back of like how many listens we got and maybe they will be able to do that what i expect what will happen is they will be able to do that. What I expect what will happen is they will go, it will basically be the way that newspaper advertising and TV advertising and billboards work. Where what will most likely happen is they will go to an ad buying agency, either someone like a mid-roll or someone like just a traditional media buyer, right? Like CBS or someone like that, who put things into billboards and stuff like that. And they will say, we want to reach 10 million podcast listeners. And these are the types of shows we want

and these are the types of shows we don't want. We want comedy, we don't want technology. And then a company like the mid-roll will go okay we will get you those listens and then they will just spread it all out right and i think that some of the direct response stuff i believe is actually done this way so some of the companies that are doing this the current advertising that you're hearing they go to an agency and say we want this on these types of shows. And then those agencies will pitch to them.

These are the shows that we think will fit for you. So there's a bit of that done right now. That's what happens with the ads on the incomparable. Those are all part of bulk buys that mid-roll sells. Yeah. So for me, I'm not worried about this more than I am any other change. And honestly, I'm not worried about this more than I am any other change. And honestly, I'm worried about this

less just because over the time that we've been running this company, lots of things have changed and there have been lots of things I've been worried about, but nothing has affected it in the grand scheme of things. So really, I'm assuming there is a percentage of our audience that are skipping, but it's still fine, right? Like the advertising that we're doing, which I am managing still and have been mostly since the beginning of the company. I know the relationships are good. I know that the redemptions are good. So I'm comfortable with it. I don't think it's going to change.

Maybe people will want numbers differently and there will be some stuff that we'll be able to give people and some stuff that we want and that could change some prices but honestly i don't think it's going to be a lot if anything but what it might do is open us up to some companies that wouldn't have taken us before so i think that could be really interesting we could get companies like ford it has been my it has been a long-term dream of mine to get a car company i don't know why it's just something i thought would be kind of funny ever since i've watched like mad men because for advertising agencies they all want a car so i'm like well i work on a car advertise you know so that that could happen now because it's a different

type of reporting that we're able to give where we can give more numbers than the company themselves can work out right because there's no code redemptions and stuff but the problem that that we're gonna have is that apple podcasts are in the inverse percentage wise i believe to most of the shows that you may know of in the bigger space so like i will say that for this show, I expect that Apple Podcasts app is less than 30% of our downloads. Because it's difficult to tell, because currently anything listened to

on any Apple platform is reported as one thing, which is like this core media thing that Apple has. So it could be people listening in Safari So it could be people listening in Safari. It could be people listening in iTunes, like whatever. But it's probably around a third. Now, that means that our numbers will be very different to some other companies.

So we will have to extrapolate. And also, they may not be proportional to our entire audience, either negatively or positively. So unless other applications start doing this, which some may, some may not, I know lots of people that make them, and I haven't asked anyone, honestly. I've not spoken to anyone about this.

I haven't spoken to Russell about this. I haven't spoken to the Casio team about this. I haven't spoken to Marco about this. I know these people, and I'm not talking to them about it yet, because whatever. Maybe we will at some point but i i am i think that everyone will be waiting to see how this goes of apple before considering to do it themselves uh this is something that any podcast app can do by the way so i don't my gut feeling is that nobody else is going to feel the need to do it

because or really any reason to do it for for the reason that you just described which is i think apple's although for certain markets like ours apple's stats may not be a great proxy because it may be that that if it's only 30 of relay listeners i just looked it only seems to be about 25 percent of incomparable listeners i would say that that really is i meant upgrade by the way oh yeah okay it's different across the entire it's different on every show right yeah but but for these tech skewed ones like half of the incomparables listeners are on overcast right i mean that's not normal in the industry, but it's sort of fitting for where we are. So the argument would be, well, the people who tend to listen in Overcast are a different kind of person with different behavior than the person who listens in the Apple Podcast

app. And therefore the Apple stats are not applicable necessarily as applicable as to something like Serial, where it's probably a much larger percentage. But I think the argument would be that the Apple stuff is going to be the best proxy for the market as a whole for the larger market, and that the smaller markets aren't going to be worth the podcast ad, podcast advertisers, or I mean, podcast app developers, adding in stats, because they're going to be such small numbers that they're not going to really be particularly applicable either. And one of the ways you differentiate yourself from Apple is by saying, we don't track you, which is probably what Overcast will do is my guess. It's just like, that's great. We don't, we won't track you.

So if you don't like Apple tracking every pause and play and ad skip in your podcast app, because that's going to happen now, then use a third party instead. They are doing that, right? Like I say it's anonymized, but they are anonymizing the data that they're providing to people. They are tracking in some way. Yeah, just like many apps do. But yeah. What they're probably doing here is I say any app can do this.

What they're probably doing is just tracking the play-pause for their syncing between devices, which any app can do. But they are choosing to actually take that data and do something with it, as opposed to it just being a syncing system. That's what I assume is going on, right? But they're taking that information

and making that data available, even though it's anonymized. So there is an element of them keeping data about you, right? Which I don't believe any other application is doing past the point where it would just override it for wherever you are in that show, right? If I'm making sense here, like my assumption would be that for other applications, they're just like, wherever you are in that show right if i'm making sense here like my assumption would be that for other applications they're just like wherever you are in that current episode that's kind of the information that's being synced to the cloud but apple is now storing that information because they are like you skip to here okay we'll store that store that like they're storing each of these data points that they're keeping which i don't believe other applications are doing right they

would just probably just override the information for their syncing system i wouldn't surprise i mean like i my guess is that all of the um the company owned uh apps are tracking it like stitcher i would imagine stitcher is mid since mid robot stitcher i'd imagine stitcher is tracking everything and midroll is probably using that as a proxy to get some ideas about user behavior. Maybe. And that this will be a much better proxy because it's a huge sample size. Although, something else we should talk about, how Apple's going to make this available? It sounds like it's going to be available to the owner of the podcast in iTunes.

Yeah, in Podcast Connect. Yeah, so the logistics issue is going to be like you have to if you're if you're the owner you have to get it out of there if you're somebody who has an ad network you're working with you're gonna have to like export the data and provide it to them there's going to be some challenges with how that is structured that'll have to come up i realize this is inside baseball but it's like you know it this is the start of a process that may lead to way better data and may change the way that this all works but it is just a step along the way and there's way more that has to happen and it won't be a catch-all but i do think that in the end for most

people this will be a proxy for all podcast behavior because it because apple owns so much of this market i'm interested to see how it will affect shows like ours. I expect, honestly, not massively, because the companies that we're working with, we've been working with already, so they know how it works and how it doesn't. And we may provide this information. We may not.

I mean, I haven't decided how we're going to work with this yet, honestly. We're going to have this information. We don't have to give anybody anything. I'll tell you now, I haven't decided how we're going to work with this yet, honestly. Like, we're going to have this information. We don't have to give anybody anything. Like, I'll tell you now, like, I don't even... I give total download numbers to sponsors when they ask it, but I give no proof of it other than what I'm telling them, right? They don't get screenshots from me or anything like that. I give the information, and there is an expectation that the honesty is maintained, right?

And it is, right? Like, I give people the numbers numbers that they need but that's all anybody gets right now there's no other information provided so i'm interested to see how that goes as well right like will we just provide this information will people want proof of this information i don't know so that's why i don't know how we will deal with it yet because as well i don't even know if i'm ever going to be asked for it because if we continue working with companies yet. Because as well, I don't even know if I'm ever going to be asked for it. Because if we continue working with companies in the same way that we have now, then it doesn't make a difference. And I do believe, honestly,

that if the industry, our science of the industry remains as it is right now, companies getting their own data is way better than the data that I give them. A company knowing how many code redemptions they've had is better. And honestly, as well, ads with discount codes work better than ads without. Because people are getting something.

So I'm keen to see how it all unfolds. And I guess there's going to be a lot more as the year goes on. And then more to say once it actually happens. But I will tell you honestly, I am not worried about this at all. Uncertain uncertainty is concerning but I don't I honestly don't believe there's going to be any major changes because I also don't think it's a large percentage of our audience that do

skip I don't because otherwise my business would have failed before now right if there were not enough people to justify the ad spend buying the product our business would have folded a long time ago. And I don't think that this is the case, right? I just don't.

I think that we're fine. I think that the advert, well, I know the advertisers are happy. So any extra data will be nice, but I don't see it making massive changes to our business. So that is your inside baseball for this week's episode. I think we will learn more about podcast behavior and that will be interesting. There could be some stuff

that we will want to change. I mean, I'll tell you right now, I'm not going to pay episode to episode focus on this, right? Like, oh no, people didn't like that 10 minutes in that last episode. We can never talk about that again because I don't think that's healthy Because I don't think that's healthy,

and I don't think it will be completely accurate, so I don't want to be a slave to those numbers. But if I can look at a specific show and be like, every single episode, nobody listens to specific 15 minutes, then maybe we'll want to change it. But honestly, I feel like that's the sort of information, if it was widespread, that we would have heard by now. Yeah. That people would have told us, oh, I hate like that's the sort of information, if it was like widespread, that we would have heard by now. Yeah.

That people would have told us, oh, I hate Ask Upgrade. Don't ever do that again. I think we would. And no one's ever said that. Right. But I still feel like if you're doing a podcast that's regularly two hours long and you get feedback that the last half hour you have like 15% of the people listening. Maybe your podcast is too long. That's what I mean.

That's what i'm saying like if if if there is data that is clear for every single episode then maybe we'd want to change something but what i'm saying is i don't want to check every episode and like look specifically when did people tune out oh god what did we say oh they hated when we talked about you know i don't think it's healthy because you don't get any context around it right and there could be some just wide scale thing that happened which meant nobody listened right but it doesn't yeah so i i just think that i personally find it unhealthy for to track statistics that closely and so i won't be but i will use it the way that i use any numbers in that i will look at them every now and then and then maybe make some changes.

Yeah, yeah, that's, I think we talked about this when we talked about ads the last time, that I never, I try very hard not to look at web stats. And it's for the same reason, is that it gets in your head, and you start to chase the statistics, and the statistics are not what, chasing statistics does not make for good material. That's, you can't have that be the thing that's in your head. So for that, yeah, I don't wanna, I'm not gonna care,

but a very broad aggregate, that could be really useful. And what we're talking about here in the end is that the thing we do for a living has provided almost no information about how people actually use it. So we all just have to extrapolate. And this is gonna give us some idea and we'll learn some things from it. And that's great in general. And I'm open to learning from the broad swath of data, right? I think that'll be really interesting and could be

good and could help us make podcasts that make the audience happier. And that's great. Because we don't have any statistics on whether you tuned out or not, because it's coming later, let us know if you're interested in hearing us talk about stuff like this again in the future. I know that people did last time, which was why we did, but if this is something that now is too far in the weeds, fine. If it's not, then maybe we can have some guests on again to talk about this at some point in the future.

Maybe so. All right, it's time for some Ask Upgrade. Today's Ask Upgrade hashtag Ask Upgrade is brought to you by our friends at Encapsular, the multifunction content delivery network that boosts the performance of your website, protects it from denial of service attacks, and secures

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So at the stage that we're at right now, I recommend that people only use secondary devices with the iOS public beta. Jason, would you like to tell people what happened to you a couple of days ago? I installed the developer beta on a 9.7-inch iPad pro, which is a test system that I have. It's not the system that I use. I use a 12.9, but I do have a 9.7.

I use it to review accessories and, and all that. Not anymore. Right now it's, it's a, it's a goner, but I installed it on there as a, as an iOS 11 test. It was great. And then I tried to set a desktop wallpaper and it died and wouldn't reboot and i had to reset it uh put it into reset mode and attach it to a mac running itunes and reset it to get it to work again and that was in the first like hour that i used it so what i'm saying is

uh definitely don't install this on anything but a secondary device, not a device you care about. And in terms of iCloud stuff, I've never had a problem with that. I've never had an experience where I think iOS knows what to keep separate in terms of devices. And I don't think it's risky. I've never seen an issue with it. There was one release. I think it was iOS 7. issue with it. There was one release, I think it was iOS 7, it was either iOS 7 or iOS 8,

where if you signed in to iCloud, it would destroy your iCloud, like some functions of iCloud syncing across all of your devices, right? They were upgrading something or changing something. And if you did it, it was like, well, now iCloud app syncing, whatever it's called, won't work on any device. Like it just hosts it. They did say that that was going to happen, though, in the release notes. So I think by now it's known. What I will say makes a big difference now is that there is a public beta. Apple would not do that for public beta. Your iCloud is not going to be intended to be reset or killed if you're using the iOS public beta, right? The your iCloud is not going to be intended to be reset or killed

if you're using the iOS public beta. So I would say use the public beta if you want to put it on any device that's important to you, but still with caution, because for example, your battery life may become atrocious, right? Like these are some of the things

that you have to accept. But I recommend that you put it on a secondary device and I will say I use my own iCloud information. I don't have a test iCloud account. But it has happened in the past. So just pay attention to the release notes and the known issues before installing. Tim asked, is it worth buying the 13-inch MacBook Pro

with Touch Bar for the better processor if I don't care about the Touch Bar? I will say, unless you intend to use the Touch Bar, I wouldn't get this machine. I used the Touch Bar MacBook Pro for editing Connected last week, and I hated it. I found it really distracting that the screen kept changing and in its current form, which is that maybe a lot of apps, like there's still not, still doesn't tend to be like a lot of really amazing functions for it. I don't know if I would enjoy using it on a daily basis. Like the fact that every time I switched app, the screen changed, my peripheral vision was triggered, and I would look down.

Now, I don't know if people that use this every day, all day, still suffer with this issue, but I think for me personally, it's not great. Also, I would put my hands down on the keyboard, and I would accidentally trigger expose and stuff like that. I found it frustrating. If it was me, I would go for the non-touch bar MacBook Pro right now. You've had more time with a MacBook Pro.

Does the distraction stop? I couldn't say. I wouldn't say that I've spent enough time deep down in a touch bar MacBook Pro to make a decision about that. Did you find it distracting like I did though? I didn't find it distracting, no. Okay, so maybe this is just a personal preference thing. So try and use it in a store maybe first. No, I think if you don't, well, because the premise of this question is the processor, even if you don't care about the touch bar. And my answer to that is,

no, don't get the touch bar if all you care about is the processor, because you can get the MacBook Escape escape the 13 inch without touch bar and you can add 300 to it which is built to order it brings it up to 1799 which is the cost of the base touch bar configuration and that is a i know the gigahertz looks lower than on the base of the of the touch bar because it's a 2.5 but it's a 2.5 gigahertz i7 that turbo boosts up to four gigahertz. That is probably going to be a faster processor than the processor in the touch bar, the base touch bar. So unless you're planning on buying a touch bar you don't want and having it be a high-end one with a high-end build-to-order processor, I think if you don't care about the

touch bar, you're better off just buying the MacBook Escape and maybe spending that extra $300 on the faster, on the i7 processor. But that depends on how you're going to use it for. Just bear in mind you will lose Touch ID and you will also only have two Thunderbolt 3 ports. So it's just something to bear in mind. Right, right. If I was making that choice right now, I think I would go without the touch bar on this model, personally.

Me too. Chris wants to know, do you use a screen protector on your iPad with the Apple Pencil? I'm worried that it might scratch, but I don't want to lose screen sensitivity. So, no, I have never, and this is absolutely nothing to worry about. These devices are made to work together. The Apple Pencil does not scratch the iPad screen. I have never, and this is absolutely nothing to worry about. These devices are made to work together.

The Apple Pencil does not scratch the iPad screen. I have used an Apple Pencil on an iPad for 18 months, and there has never been a scratch given to the screen from the Pencil. Like, I would not worry about this at all. Would you agree? Yeah, I agree. It's like, if it scratched that screen, Apple would be the worst

company ever right like that would be such a bad decision like just to not bother testing it well enough that you wouldn't know that it does not scratch it you don't need to worry about it paul asked if i will upgrade to high sierra um slowly i mean i just upgraded my iMac to Sierra, and I'm having some slight issues regarding audio, which I didn't have before Sierra, and I upgraded it to Sierra because there was some software that I needed to use that had to have Sierra. I would still not be using Sierra if I didn't need that software. And this is because, for the exact reason that I'm having some weird audio bugs right now, I don't like to upgrade the machine that I record the shows on. Because if it's working fine, don't jeopardize that.

Because I don't care about the Mac enough that I have to be on the latest and greatest. I'm not using it for fun, right? Like, I'm using it to sit down, record and edit and publish a show, and then I go back to my iPad again. So having just the most stable machine is all I care about. I do security updates, but I'm not fussed about

macOS feature updates now. So I'm frustrated that Sierra has introduced some bugs that Yosemite didn't have. Wait, was I using Yosemite? What was I using before this, Jason? I can never remember the names now. El Capitan. El Capitan. El Capitan. El Capitan had no problems for me,

and Sierra has some problems. So, hey, this is why I don't upgrade. Sorry, and yet you do upgrade every week. I know, but I will upgrade everything else as quickly as I can, just not this machine. I will almost certainly upgrade to High Sierra because I'll be using the betas over the summer because hi um because that's the uh you know i need to know about it right but i did you know for a while with yosemite i i think i had to like reboot into the previous version in order to record podcasts because there were horrible USB

audio bugs. And so that's the thing that remains. A question is, can I use this for my day-to-day system or do I have to sequester it? And there's no way to tell now. Literally, I'll find that out by trying it out and discovering whether it's a disaster or not. And there's no way to tell because it'll be some bug somewhere that might get introduced that um if it doesn't get fixed precludes me from using it uh mickey wants to know is it possible to use the ipad pro smart connector for docking an ipad pro like the nintendo switch jason yeah if if there's a thing called the Logitech Base that's $100. Which did not get a great review

from you. I don't understand quite why you'd want it, but it is a piece of metal with a smart connector on it, and so you put it somewhere, and then you drop an iPad onto it, and it's connected, and that means that it's charging. Unfortunately, you know, it doesn't

really offer other things. It's not like there's a full featured dock that will improve your connectivity in some way. It doesn't attach to a keyboard or anything like that. It's literally just a sort of slow, because it's via the smart connector, charger for your iPad. I don't, yeah, I don't see the point. But it does exist. If you need that. And it's one angle. So it's not like it's an adjustable angle.

It's just a piece of metal in a curve. So it's an interesting idea. I don't really, it does not appeal to me at all. But, and it's not like they make, there's nothing that is you drop in to the smart connector and you get video out or something like that. That I don't think it's smart connector can do the high transfer of data.

Anyway, there may be, somebody may have made some dock. I don't know that uses lightning to to like you pop it in somewhere and things happen but basically no so no yeah the docking like the nintendo switch i think what mikey or mickey is relating to is just the easy put input out because you doesn't click in you just drop it into the dock so that's what the logitech base would provide you that there isn't like a lightning port that you need to find. It just finds its way in itself. And we'll charge from that very slowly. Yeah.

Gary wants to know, what are your favorite iOS games for long plane rides? So obviously I can speak to this. I like games that I can play for long stretches that are simple whilst listening to podcasts is typical for me. So my kind of long-term games for this are Threes, Alto's Adventure, and Mini Metro. They are games that you can play

kind of without a lot of thought for long periods of time. I was playing some Monument Valley 2 on the plane, but that's not necessarily something that I would recommend for the way that I usually play stuff, because Monument Valley 2, you should listen to the audio, and I like to listen to podcasts when i'm on the plane yeah um

i am taking my time with monument valley 2 which by the way i am so excited is available uh what a great surprise and i'm very excited to play more of it but uh they are the games that i play on planes what do you do you play any games on planes jason yeah that's what i was going to say is i don't games is not a thing I do on planes, generally. On a plane, I am editing a podcast, I am reading a book, or I'm watching a movie or a TV show, but playing games on planes, nah, not for me.

That's not the Snell way. No. All right, that is it for this week's episode. As always, you can send in your questions for us to answer at the end of the show with hashtag AskUpgrade, and our beginning of the show question, which is it for this week's episode. As always, you can send in your questions for us to answer at the end of the show with hashtag AskUpgrade and our beginning of the show question, which is hashtag SnellTalk. Remember, SnellTalk is for just esoteric questions.

If you're looking for more in-detail questions about technology, keep those for AskUpgrade. I know we have lots of hashtags and lots of questions, and I appreciate every single one of you that sends in one every week or whenever you do them. I really appreciate it. Please continue to send those in because it helps us make the show. So thank you for that. And also thank you for

listening. If you listen to all of the show or part of the show or you skip certain parts of the show, we'll know soon. But I still want to thank you for doing it anyway. If you want to find Jason online, you can find him at sixcolors.com and he is at jsnall on twitter and of course at the incomparable as well

the incomparable.com I am at imyke thanks to Encapsula, MailRoute and Blue Apron for supporting this week's show and thank you as always for listening we'll be back next time until then, say goodbye Jason Snell goodbye everybody for listening. We'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snell. Goodbye, everybody.