Upgrade - 153: Three Ficuses

Episode Date: August 8, 2017

Myke reports in from New York as we discuss a grab bag of Apple news, including a possible cellular Apple Watch, even more details from the HomePod firmware leak, the surprising strength of iPad sales in Apple’s quarterly results, and next year’s crop of emoji.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 153 today's show is brought to you by squarespace fract books and encapsula my name is mike hurley i am joined by mr jason snell hello jason snell hello as always although behind the, peek behind the curtain, recording a little bit different a time, and that is mostly because you are recording in a different place. I'm just sitting in my chair in my office at home. Where are you? I am in New York City, Jason,

but nobody cares about this because it's time for Hashtag Snell Talk. Joel wrote in this week, and Joel said, what was the most exciting baseball game that Jason has ever attended? Oh, boy. I'm going to say, in terms of the excitement of the event, it is definitely game five of the World Series, maybe.

I've been to two World Series games, both of which were very exciting, both of which were game five of 2002 and 2014. Both of them won by my team, the San Francisco Giants. I would say the most exciting was probably the 2014 world series game five they won uh it was a shutout complete game shutout by madison bumgarner that was very exciting in terms of the most actual like excitement during a game ever of a baseball game i would have to say it was um game two of the 2000 divisional series with the giants against the mets where um the single most exciting baseball moment i've ever seen in person happened which is a dramatic bottom of the

ninth home run by jt snow off of the mets closer armando benitez um there was only one problem it tied the game it felt like it won the game like it really felt like morally that was it and the game was over but it actually only tied the game giants lost the next inning and that was it so but boy that moment was amazing the whole stadium shook and it was amazing so i have a few post-season baseball choices from at&t park in san francisco to to pick from welcome to the talk show my name is i know right let's talk about keyboards now can we talk about keyboards yeah baseball keyboards because that's yeah when i'm on the talk show we try to scare away everybody in the first 30 minutes it's time to talk about publishing

that was a snell talk submitted by uh joel if you would like to have your question answered at the top of the show, you can send in tweets with the hashtag Snell Talk, and that will open our episodes. So I will go back. It's my favorite thing. It's my new little catchphrase. Nobody cares about that. I don't know if anyone's noticed it,

but I think it's really funny every single time. But, yeah, I am in New York. I'm in New York City, which is part of – well, which began last week. I'm spending the entire month of August in the U.S. in various places. And I'm beginning with this show in New York. And I'm going to a baseball game myself next week, which was why I picked the baseball question. I'm going with a couple of friends to see the New York Mets versus the Miami Marlins.

So that's in a week or two, I think. So I wanted to know if you had any tips for me for enjoying the baseball game. It's not going to probably be like when we went to that baseball game in Memphis. You probably won't get a foul ball.

Okay. I would say enjoy the atmosphere and soak in the the crowd and if it's a sunny day you know enjoy the sun have a have a hot dog um will they throw hot dogs at me is that a thing that happens no no okay no but i can shout to the guy or the girl and be like hot dog here or something uh maybe if there's a hot dog But I can shout to the guy or the girl and be like, hot dog here or something like that? Maybe if there's a hot dog person. Okay.

I would recommend you just go buy a hot dog at a hot dog stand in the stadium rather than waiting for a vendor to come by. Yeah, but you see, the thing is, though, like, if I have the ability to say, one here, please, right? Oh, you don't. But, yeah, but you don't want, like, you don't want a hot dog that some guy has, like has kept in his pocket and is now going to sell to you. You don't want a hot dog out of a sack full of hot dogs that are all... No. So here's the thing. I agree with you.

That's not the type of hot dog that I want to eat. But this is one of those things that I'm not sure if American people get this about us non-Americans. We see this stuff on tv and movies right like yeah the person walking down the stairs and they have the the hot dog and you just they send the hot dog you know it's like a whole little thing right and it seems to happen and every time anybody ever goes to a baseball game here's what i would suggest get get the hot dog yourself at a stand but yes when some when a vendor comes by with a lemonade or a soda or a beer. Yeah, that'll do.

Or a cotton candy or a peanuts. Peanuts, that's a classic. Peanuts? Oh no, it'll kill you. Yeah, it'll kill me. You should buy them anyway and then just give them away. Anyway, something like that. Because peanuts is a classic, right?

Peanuts, peanuts, get your peanuts here. And then you'll die. So don't do that. Yeah, so I don't want to get those peanuts there. That's what you should do. Get something that's not a hot dog from a vendor. That's my advice to you. All right, so we do have some real follow-up.

We spoke last week in Ask Upgrade about having two Dropbox accounts potentially signed in on files in iOS 11 and what the possibilities of that would be. And we threw about some theories of how we thought that it could maybe be hacked together to be done. But a couple of people wrote in, including Ryan, who said that this is actually a feature.

If you have a business account with Dropbox, you can actually use two accounts in the iOS app and switch between them. So you can switch between a personal account and a business account. So again, this doesn't really confirm anything, but maybe it lends some credence to a possibility that this functionality could be maintained in the Files app

because Dropbox has made a point of having it in the iOS app for some time. So that is an important information. I'm unclear on exactly how the whole files interaction thing works and whether Dropbox can put two different, you know, will it in this scenario basically have two mount points? And is that allowed or do they only have one file system that they can generate there or not? But there's at least some hope if you have a business account i think we also heard from somebody who maybe actually works at dropbox who basically said beyond that there are no you know they know of no plans to support this you know just having several dropbox accounts and some of that makes sense because you can get a free amount of space from dropbox and i think that they don't want to make it easy to switch because then you could just

have a chain of dropbox accounts each with with five gigabytes, and move between them. It'd be unlimited, right? If you had it all in a root directory inside of an application. Exactly. Unlimited, but inconvenient, right? But they don't want to do that. So unless you're in a situation where you've got a business account and a personal account, that might work. Although, you know, that's the real question is how does that interact with files and will that work so there have been some new emoji proposals and i just wanted to to run through some of these real quick because okay this emoji seems to be some part of our beat on this show at least i think i forced it in over time at least i saw jeremy bird like um

what a little bit a little more than a week ago and jeremy and i were talking about from emojipedia we were talking about we were on uh on the new screensavers on twit and we were talking about emoji it was nice to see jeremy yeah me and jeremy have a thing where we cross paths so he's been in the u.s for a month he came home and now we've we've reversed over right um i also said his name totally wrong because it's berg right berg not berge oh i always call him berge that's right i'd like to his face so i'm not berg like iceberg correct all right iceberg i i said berge and then i immediately was worried about it so we'll we'll see that's not iceberg not a uh not a not an emoji but uh i think i think breaking news for those who've wondered why is the pile of poo so happy is one of the proposals and jeremy was actually sweet swinging up to to um seattle for

the for a meeting about this for an emoji subcommittee meeting um one of the proposals is indeed a frowning pile of poo yep so this this news has come out because there has been a Unicode consortium meeting where they discuss and look at proposals for new emoji. And one of the contenders this time is a frowning pile of poo, which honestly I don't want. I don't really like the poop emoji. I'm just going to say this. I don't either. I'm not being squeamish or whatever. emoji i'm just gonna say this like i don't either i'm not being squeamish or whatever i just don't understand why people want a poop of a face on it like so now i don't really want more of them

um but they're weird it is weird it's weird and also the way it's it's generally drawn it's a um it's just soft serve it's like it's it's it's chocolate soft serve it's not even i'm gonna say though jason there's no other way i would want to say i don't want it represented any other way no i think it should be did you did you know jeremy pointed this out to me there used to be flies buzzing around it and those went away it's like i think like if you're gonna have poop just go have it be real poop like if you want to send poop to somebody do it but don't give me this like a an anthropomorphic pile of soft serve who might be happy but might be sad and we don't and nobody knows why are we going to have to have all the smileys have an option where they could be poo

instead of a yellow circle is that going to happen i hope not but you said that like you you're just comprehending that maybe that's a serious possibility. I hope not. That would be bad. This is like opening the jar. There are 67 new emoji that have been listed as draft candidates for the 2018 emoji set. And I wanted to just mention a couple that I think might be kind of cool. Bagel and cupcake in food.

A test tube. I think a test tube could be a of cool. Bagel and cupcake in food. A test tube. I think a test tube could be a good one. Redheads. And I feel sorry for redheads because there are going to be, I think in the 2017 set, there's going to be new hair modifiers. And this would indicate that redheads

did not make the cut of the original hair modifiers, which I feel sad about considering there is a rather large redhead population in my own family. There is a face with a large redhead population in my own family. There is a face with smiling eyes and a party horn and party hat. So basically a party face emoji. And then there is a red face with tongue sticking out with bead of sweat and a blue face with clenched teeth and icicles. I like those two to show hot and cold.

So there's some good ones in there. And as you can imagine, there are also a bunch of just like really boring useless rubbish ones that i don't know even know why they're putting in but there are lots of people that want lots of things and this is some of the new emoji that we may see in 2018 so like probably like ios 12 that's exactly right but it's good it's good you know there there um there's some there's some good ones in there. There's some new animals that are nice. There's a raccoon and a parrot and a hippo and a llama.

You know, if you're in the Andes and you need to say, check out this llama, got it. You're going to be there. Nailed it. Yeah. Today's show is brought to you by our friends over at Encapsular. They have the website security tools and content delivery network that will make any website safer faster and more reliable over 100,000 organizations trust encapsular with their web traffic every single day from huge fortune 500 companies to one-person websites it doesn't matter who you are encapsular can help protect you and

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weeks, we have just both been discussing the potential of a new Apple Watch, right? It started an AskUpgrade two weeks ago. Two weeks ago, yeah. Then there was I think a Ming-Chi Kuo story, where we were talking about it last week. Now, this week, we have a Mark Gurman report from Bloomberg. Gurman is saying that Apple is planning to release week. Now, this week, we have a Mark Gurman report from Bloomberg.

Gurman is saying that Apple is planning to release a new Apple Watch this year, which will include a cell radio, and he's confirmed that it would be an LTE chip. Because this isn't something we've discussed, but something that I've maybe considered is they might just go with 3G first, but it looks like it will be LTE. Intel is said to be the supplier of this new radio, which is different for Apple,

but it does make sense considering Apple's currently going through all this brouhaha with Qualcomm, right? Yeah, and I think Intel provides some of the radios on the current iPhones and Qualcomm the others, so Intel definitely wants Apple's business here. Oh, I'm sure Intel wants apple's business here oh i'm sure intel want apple's business yeah and and this is like a good thing for everybody in this regard right like intel get to push in apple get to make uh qualcomm feel nervous right and and then everybody can try and well everybody except qualcomm can try and get some of what they want um so this there's this

is a this is a power move as well, I think, from Apple. And, you know, do I think that Qualcomm chips will be in the next iPhone? Yes, I do. Do I think that Apple would maybe try and squeeze them out on the Apple Watch as a sign that things might be changing? Yeah.

Like, I can't imagine the next iPhone would go all Intel, right, because it feels like, just in case, just in case these chips aren't as good maybe don't go that route but we'll see i mean we'll see we'll see just how bad their situation is come september and it may i mean it may be it may have nothing to do with that it may be that intel it has a radio here that is superior in some way of course that makes apple choose it at these volumes for an apple watch that they like what they what they're getting out of intel for this it may not be political at all or it may be who

knows apparently apple reportedly in talks with carriers in the u.s in europe about getting this kind of ready to be set up i wonder about this like how this would work like yeah so there are some carriers in the u.s that are doing this now because there are smart watches they're android smart watches that have cellular connections and of course one of the things they say about them is that their battery life is generally bad so that's a question is is apple going to be able to do this presumably apple wouldn't do this this is a little bit like what we've said about some other apple features that have been rumored like if if they're going to do this presumably it means they can get through the day through a full day with a cellular radio turned on at least when it needs to be turned on yeah and

however they do energy efficiency there but um those google i mean android smart watches android wear watches um it sounds like uh what has happened is that carriers have set up plans for these devices, just like they've got plans for your iPad, where you're paying a fee to put it on your account. But it also sounds like there's this a feature that is now enabled that that some of the carriers are offering that last time I checked, I looked this up that you can actually set it up so that it rings that device as well as your phone. And the idea there is it's not just like adding a SIM to an iPad where you are paying, you know, I'm paying $10 a month to put my iPad on my cellular plan,

but it's a little more than that, where in a world where you had a a cellular apple watch and you went for a run right right and somebody sent you a text to your phone or somebody called you on your iphone your watch would ring because the way this works is that that other device that watch um is connected to the network and the network knows that's the same number essentially yeah so it's not like cool folding but like cool duplication kind of thing right no it's it's and it's exactly what you would want yeah exactly what you want is i want it to ring my watch and my phone and this is something that can't happen at the apple level

it has to happen at the carrier level but it sounds like that's exactly what has already been built in. So, you know, the carriers know, right, that this is an inevitable direction. There are already some smartwatches out there that do it. And there's money to be made. So that would be my guess is that it will be that simple, that you will be able to add it to your, you know, u.s like to your at&t account or whatever the you know the other carriers are and it will you'll you know you'll add to your bill but it will just work yes because like when you're at home right and you get a phone call or a text message your apple watch gets it but it's because it's right it's connected to the iphone but the point of this is that it won't be always.

Right. The UI is the same, but the difference would be in where the phone is coming from. Because if you're running several miles or riding a bike or whatever without your iPhone and you're several miles away, and to me that's like the number one reason you have a cellular Apple Watch

is that you can leave the phone at home and not be out of touch, which is great. Then, you know, the cell network would say, you've got a call and your phone is ringing at home and your phone is ringing on your watch. And if you answer on your watch, your watch picks up and that's where you have the phone call. And that's just perfectly like part of the system. It's perfectly normal.

When you hear this, what do you think? Do you think that you would want to leave your phone at home and and just have a watch like what scenarios in your life can you imagine wanting to do this yeah i mean i i think we went over it a few times but number one for me is running because when i'm running i bring my phone with me and you know the phone is in my pocket weighing down my pocket and uh and it's not i would love to not have it with me i would love to not have it with me um if i've if i can have um if i could load music on my watch which i can and on my airpods like i don't need the phone anymore except that the phone is the thing that contains all the data that is pushing, you know, out through, you know, into my, my AirPods, basically. So if I could run without

that and have a playlist playing, I mean, ideally, I'd like a podcast, but the Apple Watch has proven so far to be kind of really terrible at podcasting. But if even if just a music playlist, that would be a big deal, because it would mean that I wouldn't have to take the phone because the phone's big. I mean, this is like people strap have to take the phone because the phone's big. I mean, this is like people strap phones to their arms and things like that, right? When they're running.

Like to get that, to make it optional, I think it would be huge. That is definitely a really good use case. But I'm trying to think of more. You know, like running is the obvious use case, but what other ones?

Well, for a fitness, for a device that's got a lot of fitness uses, You know, like running is the obvious use case, but what other ones could we assume? For a device that's got a lot of fitness uses, if you've got the ability when you're swimming or over to the school by my house and in the evenings and all that, like, I don't need to bring my phone with me if because I'm really bringing it so that if I get a message or, or something like that, and yeah, if I'm going to do more intense work in apps on my phone, that's one thing. But when I'm walking the dog, I'm not when I'm walking the dog, I just want to remain in touch. If my mom sends me a text, I can reply to her right on my, on my watch. I can't do that without my her right on my on my watch i can't do that without my phone right now but i would be able to do that i i even have apple pay on my watch so i

don't need the phone to do apple pay so i i feel like there is uh a bunch of stuff that is in the universe of i need to bring my phone with me that we just by default we do that that maybe if we had a cellular enabled watch on our wrists some portion of that would fall out yeah as being like i don't really need that we don't think of that today because there's no option you you're chained to our phones right like you know exactly that's how we are because this is what i'm saying right like i totally agree like the fitness stuff makes so much sense and i think the answer is simply just we can't conceive of it yet because we don't have it but like i'm trying to think of like is there like a threshold that would become in my life where i would then take my phone you know what i mean like if it works well enough that it's like well maybe if i'm out all day i would take it

but like let's say that me and adina are going to be together somewhere and we're going to be going out shopping well or whatever like maybe i just don't need my phone at all because i wouldn't use it right and but but i can still get all the contact that i need because my watch is there and right now there's no question because right now it's just like well of course i bring my phone everywhere but yeah that this would allow you to in every one of those scenarios say do i need to bring this or not because just if all i'm doing is the baseline of i want to be there if somebody sends me an important message or a call comes in that i need to have that you know i might not need the phone for that if that's literally all i'm doing

obviously if it above a certain point you're like oh yeah okay of course i need my phone for this but i do think some amount would come out. And in the fitness area, you'd see it a lot. And that's a major focus of the Apple Watch. Yeah, of course. Obviously, the more independent the watch is, the better the OS also needs to get in terms of the apps being better and being more self-sufficient. And I hope we get there,

because that would be great if the apps were more... If I want to check Slack, I can't do it on my Apple Watch, because the Slack app for Apple Watch is terrible. But some of the other apps are better than that. So that would be something that would be kind of on Apple

as a developer of the app platform and the third-party app developers as well to say, okay, in this next generation of Apple Watch, you now actually really need to think about having a fully featured app that is loading data off the internet. Because while they can do that now with Wi-Fi, so Apple's already laid the groundwork there. It's going to be a much more common experience once apple watch with lte you know series 3 or whatever they call it ships right because like here's one thing right like i would want to have podcasts on my on my apple watch so i could go out for a walk in the neighborhood and listen to my next episode of the adventure zone right but i mean look at you know i'll put a link in the

show notes to under the radar episode 91 um which has a nice succinct kind of discussion from between marco and david about like marco's current issues with overcast on the apple watch and how there are changes i think with watch os 4 maybe where it's just it's just not going to be possible anymore to do what he has been doing so like well let's assume that this thing's going to have a cellular radio in it well currently watch os4 doesn't have a good way for people to build these apps so unless a new apple watch comes to some significant changes just having an lte in the watch is not going to be able to allow me to uncouple myself from it. Exactly. I'm baffled that there is no podcast app on the Apple Watch and that they're not allowing like podcast syncing, but it is hard as Marco has discovered. It is hard because you have to

basically like triage what goes on the watch depending on, you know, what load it puts on, like loading data is probably going to kill the battery on it. So you're going to want to keep the data load low. So what you probably wouldn't want to do is write a client that just streams podcasts on the fly, but you could, right? Where, you know,

right. But, but then it sounds like there are a lot of problems with like background audio and things like that, that Marco has found that are fundamental problems that have to be addressed by Apple, basically. So I do think that's a real question mark about the Apple Watch in general is why is there no podcast story? goal and and yet people who are trying like marco who are trying to build device independent apps you know phone independent watch only all acting by itself independent right and they and they're hitting these walls that sounds like you know apple's got a lot more work to do because they

can they can ship this independent device and it's not going to matter if the third-party apps to take advantage of it are not you know able to be built so also in government's report he says that to enable this apple been working on continued battery life improvements for the watch which makes sense gotta be right and so my wonder is i assume that the lte chip would not be constantly connected like it would just switch on when they couldn't detect the iPhone anymore. Yeah, that's what I was kind of assuming, is that this would be something that only activates

when it loses touch with either an open Wi-Fi network or its buddy iPhone, right? That if it doesn't have either of those, then the cellular radio would spin up. But otherwise, you know, but that's, I mean, that's not surprising. if it doesn't have either of those then the cellular radio would spin up but otherwise you know but that's i mean that's not surprising that's energy saving features like you want to be as efficient as possible and since it knows it's got a buddy um especially like when it's connected to the phone it knows it doesn't need it because its buddy is there the big brother is

there so uh john gruber and daring fireball link to this and in his kind of link post he mentioned that he's been hearing um from from a source that there is an all-new form factor coming for the new watches yeah i wonder what that means because it doesn't make sense to me you know like we were talking about it and and I think it was last week, and I was saying that if they want to maximize battery life, just keep it looking the same, right? Because you can probably pack more stuff in there. But who knows? I mean, that could mean a new form factor.

It could literally mean anything, really. It could just mean new corners. Do you know what I mean? Like it could be the same thickness. It could be thicker, right? For all we know, it could be bigger. But it's not an impossible thought that they would change it, but unless a change that they made was clearly obvious,

you know, like you look at it and you're like, oh, yeah, they had to do that because of the LTE chip. I don't know. I'm not sure that they need to. A little antenna sticking out of it. You pull the antenna out. Well, I'm thinking more if they need to. A little antenna sticking out of it, you pull the antenna out. Well, I'm thinking more something for antenna bands or something like that. There might be a visual change in some way that's like,

oh, okay, that makes sense now. There's some kind of change to it that way. Because it's going to need those, and it doesn't seem to have any clear path for the for the for the radios i don't really know enough about how that works but you know if you it's just like a mini iphone and the iphone still needs the antenna band so maybe maybe the watch would too so that might make some kind of change yeah well we'll we'll see we'll see if that's this year's john's not betting the house on it and doesn't think we should either, which is probably a good idea. But it's funny, you know, two weeks ago we got asked, what about a new Apple Watch? And we were both like, maybe, you know, it's not like not, I think you said that you thought they would and I thought, and I thought they might, but they might not.

And now with this, it's heating up. It's feeling stronger now is the thing. There seems to be more stuff coming. And in the gift that keeps on giving as people continue to, I think, kind of amazingly find out more and more tidbits of information from the uh incredible like just incredible home pod uh leak story from from a week or two ago um it had been corroborated potentially um in saying that there's like a string of text which was uh found by a Twitter user via the name of RealAntonioM, that there seems to be some kind of reference to an Apple Watch with a SIM in it. So there's a line that talks about Gizmo and SIM. And apparently Gizmo is an Apple Watch code name.

And if we see if that reference is SIM, well, that's the cell radio, right? So there's more. It just continues to go, this HomePod stuff. And it's just continuing to find more and more and more information. Yeah. It's, yeah. So last week on download, I had Michael Gartenberg on who used to work at Apple. And his, I mean, he said what I figured is the case, which is, in the end, is this going to affect Apple sales?

No. It's going to make a bunch of people sad and angry and embarrassed and all of those things. But he did say, like, boy, whoever did this, I feel really bad for them because this is the kind of thing where, I think he even said, this is the kind of thing where you get taken out behind the shed and and shot like yeah it's just this is this is like an executable offense and it was almost certainly a mistake but it's also a probably um a mistake that was don't you know put this in here before you do this and they didn't do that and so then all this data gets leaked because it's not just that the firmware got posted it's also that all the stuff that's supposed to be hidden was not hidden in the firmware build so yeah yeah i it's it's tough with all the security and uh secrecy stuff that apple's been doing that

in the end they um you know they released this firmware blob that gives away just huge amounts of information. And the more you look at it, the more you glean from it, apparently. Yeah, I wanted to just call reference to a couple of, like just a trio of things that have come out since that I thought were kind of interesting. So these are all in reference to the next iPhone. So some stuff that will come to iOS 11 post the next iPhone release. There are references made

to something called attention detection which could potentially what what people are theorizing that by looking at some of this code that the phone could know if you're looking at it and make changes based upon that one of them being something like silencing notifications so not making notification noises if you're looking at your phone because it knows you can see the banners so that's really interesting um there are references to many references to many many many facial expressions that the system should be able to detect i have no idea what that could mean but right like if you think about it the photo stuff should be helping them understand if i'm smiling and if i'm sad and that kind of stuff and there is code that references all of

these facial expressions i don't know what they would do with that honestly i have no idea but that's that's there that's the thing and also uh the ability to double tap on the home screen to wake the screen now this is interesting to me because I can't work out why they would add this. Now, my thinking would be that maybe because there's no button to press to wake the screen. Like, you know, if your phone's on the desk right now, you can just press the button and wake the screen up, you know, if you just want to wake the screen up. But you can't do that if there's no button, right just double tapping anywhere on the screen will wake it wait the phone which i would

quite like actually yeah if it knows that you're there and it recognizes you you just tap and it opens or double tap and it opens that's very interesting the faces i have a i have a couple dumb dumb theories which is if it knows what your expression is that it might first off it might actually change like an icon uh which is a silly thing but it's like if you're smiling it's the icon smiles and if you're not smiling it doesn't smile i also thought about some messages feature where like you can send an emoji and it's whatever your current facial expression is if they could find that somehow to work that would be beautifully stupid right like it would just be so brilliant and so dumb but like a great thing to show someone it would be a great

demo yeah exactly and that sounds like something apple would do it does that's a real i actually like the emoji one a lot um i can i can see that being an iMessage app you know that they make that that's i actually think that i don't think anyone really use it but it's uh or at least any more than what is that called the the digital touch digital yes oh yeah the digital touch um but it would at least be funny and as joe says like what is the facial expression for a frowning pile of poo? Nobody knows. We'll find out, maybe, come September. I hope not. Today's show is also brought to you

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Oh, boy, get out your charts. Everybody get your charts ready. Okay, I'm going to give a quick, I'm going to give some numbers and some statistics breakdowns now in case anybody wasn't following along last week. So Apple reported in Q3 2017 $45.4 billion in revenue, which is up from $42.4 billion year-on-year, so an increase from Q3 2016 to Q3 2017 of $3 billion. They're forecasting their Q4 revenue guidance

between $49 billion to $52 billion, so somewhere between $49 billion to $52 billion. So it's somewhere between $49 billion and $52 billion. This is a lot of money. Q4 2016, Apple brought in $46.9 billion. So they're probably going to – I mean, looking at where they're forecasting, they're probably going to be around the $50 billion mark, which is a lot of money. I expect that they're thinking the next iphone's going to get off to a real strong start now q4 obviously does not include the holiday

season um that's all the q1 stuff right that am i following that correctly so q1 is the holiday season results but q4 would include the next iphone release So it looks like Apple's thinking that they've got a hit on their hands. I guess that's what we would assume from looking at this forecasting guidance, right? Yeah, I think it implies that the first week or weekend or week and a half,

it really depends on where the new iPhones come out, but that there's some burst of iPhone sales that will happen in this quarter. I think this quarter ends like, I think this quarter ends maybe the 24th of September, something like that. I'm trying to do some quick calculations here um so i think that's right um maybe maybe it's the maybe it ends the 30th of september maybe it is a straight up july

august september it depends on the on uh when the because the quarter isn't like clear month by month it's it's a set it's a set of weeks yeah, if this is a 12-week quarter for these months, that's, yeah, that's about right. So yeah, Apple's basically saying in that first week or two, they're going to see enough iPhone sales to book that they have to roll those into their guidance. And so their guidance is up from what they said their guidance was. And as we've talked about before, when you're confused about what Apple stock is doing, it's because anticipation of the future is already built into the current price of the Apple stock. So when Apple posts guidance for next quarter that's higher than Wall Street expected, then the stock goes up because Apple's basically said, you undervalued us. We're actually worth more than you even thought next quarter.

And so then everything rises with that. And Apple tends to be fairly conservative on that, although lately they've been more kind of just accurate about it. And so they're definitely saying they're going to be up quarter over quarter from our year on year from last year, as well as quarter over quarter, and that they're going to be probably above or at $50 billion.

So as you would probably expect, iPhone, Mac, and services sales were all up. But most notably, I think, iPad sales were up as well. It's finally happened. iPad sales are up year on year. Yeah, I had that thought when that came out. Like, what are we seeing here? And maybe it's just one quarter.

Who knows what will happen next quarter? So I don't want to be premature and say, all right, it's turned it around. premature and say all right it's turned it around but this is literally the first time sales units have gone up year over year in a quarter for three years so even if it is let's just let's just we'll jump ahead for a moment we'll try and dig into why we think this has happened but even if this is just a one-time thing what it's done is prove that it can be done. And that's pretty important, I think. What Apple have done here is prove that year on year, they can make an effect.

So I think that this is something that they really need. These iPad sales going up, that is really important. Like that is a very important thing. Yeah, I think maybe. I mean, what it seems to me is that the, in this, there's an education cycle going on here where education is selling

and they said that Apple education sales in the US were up a lot. The low cost fifth generation iPad seems to have driven a lot of sales. Average selling price of the iPad is down, which means that more of the mix of iPads sold was the fifth generation iPad, the cheap iPad, and not the new iPad Pros as much that came out. But in the end, you know, in the end end it's more ipads sold and if you're wondering whether the ipad is just going to keep declining or whether it's going to flatten out or turn around this is the first sign of reversing the downward trend really in three years. So there were 11.4 million iPads sold,

which is up from 10 million from the Q3 previous, with revenue up 1.9% at 4.87 billion. This is ending, as we mentioned, the 13 quarter sales decline. So as you pointed out, that even though units were up, the average sales price decreased.

So it would probably indicate that sales of the $329 iPad have been doing really well and that maybe maybe this is the product that turned the tide, not the pro models. And this jives with feedback that we were getting earlier this year. You remember when I went on my tear about iPad sales numbers for a couple of weeks? Well, we were getting lots of people from schools and school districts writing in to say that they were waiting for a revision for the non-pro ipad line because they didn't want an ipad pro it was too expensive and it had features they wouldn't need they wanted a new air and that's what apple gave them in this past quarter so it could be that this is part of that right that there's been a there's been a lot of people waiting for this product but again like i don't for me personally like i don't think it matters what it was just the fact that it happened because it happening means there are ways to do this that

there are ways to have the growth curve change so apple need to focus on what those will be right like i think about the Mac line I think it's closest to compare the Mac and the iPad lines together and I'm sure again we've seen this we've heard the arguments that Apple posed at the round table about the Pro thing the Pro line does not take up the majority of Mac sales. But the Pro line is where a

lot of the work is going on. It's where a lot of the advancement is going on. Because the sales of a cheaper model, the sales of the more regular consumer models, they help prop up the development of the entire product line, allowing the Pro line, so the Pro desktops and therefore the Pro iP ipads to continue pushing the product forward and then the the advancements can trickle down to the rest of the line like so you see improvement on the top end which can trickle down to the lower end products if the ipad can work this way that's fantastic right like this is what it needs to do well it needs to it needs to show signs of life.

That's for sure, right? And if this is the way that it works, if this is the ecosystem for it, I think that's fine, right? The idea that the iPad is going to have a volume seller that is down a lot lower and some less volume but really awesome sellers at the high end than the iPad Pro. I agree. That's fine. That's fine. And it seems like Apple, this has been Apple strategy all along is we're going to split the line and we're going to push part of it up and the other part down. And how does that working? And the answer is now the iPad is, is simultaneously cheaper and more powerful, depending on which one you want. And it worked this time. Let's see how it keeps working, right?

Is there going to be an upswing here? Or is this more about kind of finding a new level? Keeping in mind that if the iPad were to grow slightly, it would be the size of the Mac in terms of revenue. So, you know, maybe that's fine. Like maybe, maybe that's the level, but, but as long as it was going down, we didn't know. So that's, that's the thing that I take from it that I think you take from it too, is this is a sign that we're, we're going to get an answer about what an iPad business looks like that we maybe didn't know before. Cause we were like like are they just going to keep selling fewer of them until they're none or where does it stop what's the size of this

market how do we start to understand what the ipad market is and now maybe we can and also you know there's a part of it for me which is i mean this is obvious of this is clear this is how it should be but the fact that they have been able to make this change shows to me that apple understands how to do it right they've worked it out like somebody had a thought that they were like oh what we should do is also make a cheap nine inch ipad which is going to take a regression in some ways so we can bring the price down why do we do this because we think it might help us sell more ipads in general and they they did it and it worked. Right? Like somebody had that idea and was able to convince whoever was needed

to be convinced that this was the thing that had to happen. Which is just another thing as an iPad user which makes me happy because it proves that they're willing to try something rather than just be like, no, we're going to keep doing what we've been doing for the last four years and just hope that it will work. That no, we're going to keep doing what we've been doing for the

last four years and just hope that it will work. That's what we're going to do. And that's not what they did. And it's changed. And we've also got these fantastic new iPads as well, which I'm sure have helped. I can't imagine that it didn't help. I'm sure that they helped, but then it's been bolstered by this other stuff. And I'm wondering, Jason, do you think the iOS 11 will help? Yes, I do. I think that although we can all, as nerds, get excited about what iOS 11 has in terms of transforming the iPad and making especially the iPad Pro amazing and way better than it's been, especially the iPad Pro, amazing and way better than it's been. You know, regular people, Apple needs to give that message to regular people once it's got it in hand,

which means that once iOS 11 ships in the fall, thus kicking off the fall and holiday sales period, they're going to be able to use iOS 11 as part of that message. And I think it will be effective. I think that will be helpful because I don't think iPad sales moved this past quarter because of iOS 11 being in the offing, right? I don't think that consumer markets work like that. Wall Street might work like that where they've been on the future, but you know, um, outside of our circles where there are betas being passed around, right. By, you know, public betas and developer betas and all of that. Outside of this circle, iOS 11 is just kind of a promise. It's an IOU right now. When it's real, it could make a real difference. I mean, in some ways, it's still an IOU to us

because there are features we can't use yet, features that are probably going to change a lot of the way that we work for a lot of good reasons. Like drag and drop and files, probably the two biggest parts of ios 11 we can't really use everywhere and right because the apps haven't been updated to support them yet and that'll come this fall so even then like there's going to be more and more of it and my hope is that there is going to be a really strong marketing campaign around the ipad pro at that point because the holiday season's coming, and the

holiday season could see movement in the pro market, but there could also be movement even further in this $329 iPad, because it's going to be able to do a lot of this stuff, right? It'd be able to do basically all of it, I think. It just doesn't have a keyboard, but it's going to be able to do all the multitasking, it's going to have the dock and all that sort of stuff, right? board but like it's going to be able to do all the multitasking it's going to have the dock and all that sort of stuff right like it's not being left behind so i i think that there is a there's a strong case to be made for the q4 results as well now i'm trying to let myself get a get ahead of myself right like right now i'm just trying to focus on the fact that finally I don't have to live in fear of the results every time because it's provable that this will end. This is what we always spoke about every single time.

This will end at some point, and it's ended. And it's actually ended with an increase. It's not ended with a complete stall. It's just been decline, decline, decline. stall right like it's just been declined decline decline and i always thought it was just going to level out but it's actually gone up a little bit which is i think is very positive news so i'm feeling like tim i'm feeling bullish right now they didn't say that this time did he nobody asked him anything about the ipad because the numbers were good and he didn't feel the need to offer other than you know he said it did well here and it did well here but there was no basically once your numbers go up they

stop asking you know and he stops offering like no no it's going to be fine because the numbers were fine so everybody's like all right good great let's move on and so he didn't have to give the ipad another vote of approval feeling good about it think it's going to be great in the end he didn't have to do that this time. And he did cite that as well, the U.S. education market did play into this, right? Which I think lends the idea of the 329. Just reaffirms that. But also said that Apple saw iPad growth in China and Japan with more than half of these users being new to iPad.

That's always good. Yeah, that is a sign one of the challenges is what's the market for this and are new people coming into this market is there room for growth not just selling new models to people who have old models but actual growth in the market and they saw that in china and japan so outside of this ipad stuff was there anything else in the uh in the earnings call that that interested you was there any things that tim was saying or any questions that were being thrown that really kind of piqued your interest well you know tim is excited about uh augmented reality

and keeps on um and keeps on talking about it which is great he's very excited he he's not downplaying it right he's not trying to say you know we'll see how it goes he's very excited he he's not downplaying it right he's not trying to say you know we'll see how it goes he's very much like it's going to be huge um apple you know os ios 11 is going to make apple the world's biggest augmented reality platform when it ships um he thinks it's big and profound and one of those huge things he said that we'll look back at and marvel at the start of it. So he is all the way in on the AR hype. And I think that's interesting. We got an Apple Watch check-in because remember, they don't actually reveal results of the Apple Watch. But they did say that sales were up 50%, presumably over the year ago quarter.

That also means it was probably not like the record that they set earlier. But it is, you know, the top selling smartwatch in the world by a very wide margin. And then we make our guesses about what that might actually mean. The other two things that I think he mentioned that were worth at least citing, he's been trying to, he's been asked several times about whether the statement by the President of the United States that Apple's making three big, beautiful plants in the US was true. And he keeps been asked several times about whether the statement by the president of the United States that Apple's making three big, beautiful plants in the U.S. was true. And he keeps trying to kind of like turn those around and say, well, let me explain. We're investing in U.S. manufacturing and we have a billion dollar fund and we already spent 200 billion or 200.

We have a billion dollar fund and we spent 200 million in Kentucky on Corning, their glass factory, and will make some other investments. And basically doesn't want to answer this question about the statement about three big plants because it sounds like that was a misunderstanding, but he's not going to say the president doesn't know what he's talking about. So instead he's like, look, I think this is where this is coming from. We are making investments in U.S. manufacturing, and that's all we're going to say. It's just three really big trees in Apple Park. It's just in his office.

It's three ficuses. Three huge plants. Beautiful in Tim's office. That's totally what it is. And then the last thing I wanted to mention about the analyst call, because I transcribed it again, is there was an analyst who actually,

there's always one, who says, should we believe blogs and component suppliers about the possible delays of the new iPhone, given that you're forecasting your revenue so strongly for next quarter? To which Tim Cook said, we have no comment on anything that's not announced

and the analyst replied fair enough i thought it was worth a shot and then seriously when he says that the entire room in cupertino just starts laughing for a few for like five seconds yeah i figured it's worth a shot he said and then there was lots of laughter and then they moved on to the next question it was pretty funny but like i like that there's always one somebody's gonna give it a shot someone has to ask it at least they're self-aware right that they know that they're never gonna get the answer but you've got to ask they're never gonna get the answer i liked i liked how he phrased it yeah i like how he phrased it as like well we're looking at your guidance so what does that say?

And then he's trying to negate it. Like, that certainly doesn't seem like you think they're going to be delays. And they're like, yeah, nice try. Yeah. You got so close. Good work. Yeah. Wasn't there some kind of reference to the HomePod thing as well?

Didn't it make some kind of joke about it? Oh, no. I don't know. I might have just read somebody making a twitter joke by themselves you know you know what these things could be like if you're not following a lot well you don't because you have to listen to everything but there's lots of joking jokes during these types of situations there are so i may have i may have misread something so uh i'm really happy about these these numbers i can tell it's it's just a sigh of relief really like it's just you know look

me and you and a few other people many other people we try and do our best to tell the story of the ipad because we believe in the product right like but it can be really hard that you know every time we talk about it people just like wow but none of them are selling it's just a difficult thing to have to deal with right because it? Because it's undermining every point that I make because Apple aren't selling them. Well, they are again, and that's good news, I think. Definitely. All right, today's show is also brought to you by Squarespace.

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first purchase and show your support for this show. We thank Squarespace for the continued support of upgrade and RelayFM. Squarespace, make your next move, make your next website. All right, Jason, it is time for a USA version of hashtag AskUpgrade. So this probably would mean fireworks this time, right? Rather than lasers? Yep, that's right. Those fireworks sounded specific, like kind of suspiciously laser-like, but we don't have to worry about that.

The lasers ignited the fireworks. You missed that nuance there. Wow. To start off with Frank today, who asked if we think that iMessage syncing could bring iMessage to iCloud.com. So, a couple of things on this. iMessage syncing is where Apple is storing iMessages

in the cloud, and will be delivering them to all of your devices. It keeps kind of everything in check, stops the reordering and all of the random stuff. I don't know if you ever get this, but if I open a computer I haven't seen in a while, they all download one by one, and they're all in really weird orders and stuff like that.

This tool, this feature is being made to stop some of this and help some of this. However, I will also mention that iOS 11 Beta 5 came out today, and in the release notes, they mentioned that this feature has been removed and will be added later.

This isn't the first time I've done this. This happens. It might come in 11.1 or something like that. I assume they feel like they haven't got this right. This does seem like an incredibly tricky thing to do correctly and to do safely and securely. So I guess they're just holding until they get all the bugs worked out.

Right. I mean, imagine iOS 11 launching and every single iPhone user and iPad user basically at that moment is suddenly using a brand new cloud service, which means they're hitting Apple servers. And if they don't have servers. And if it, if they don't have that down cold, right,

everybody's going to complain. And the whole story of the iOS 11 update is going to be that all of their message histories got messed up. You know, so I'm going to give them some credit here. At some point, somebody said, Nope,

we're not going to ship it. We'll ship it with a 11.1, 11.0.1, whatever it is. we'll ship it with uh 11.1 11.0.1 whatever it is we'll ship it in october november december whatever but not at launch because we need to uh get it right good for them yeah i was when i was thinking about this like i wonder if they did anything to kind of try and test under the conditions of what happens when a new i've when new iphones are sold right of what happens when a new i when new iphones are sold right and what happens to apple servers they were like oh well if this happens imessage is really dead like super dead so why don't we just try and stagger all this out a

little bit you know like let's just chill everything down um but to back to frank's question do we think that this imessage syncing could bring imessage to the web icloud.com i don't i don't think they're going to do that. I don't think that's what they will want to do. It looks like Frank said could, and I will say, yeah, sure, it could. I'm unclear on what Apple is

prioritizing in terms of what goes on iCloud.com, but once it's up there and you put in your password so that you can decrypt your data, which is what happens when you're on iCloud.com, it could. But I'm not sure whether I can see the use case that would make them prioritize that. Do you think that in that scenario, could the same question be made for like an Android app? Would that become more possible with

this i don't know i guess i mean i think it makes bringing iMessage anywhere now that there's a a canonical cloud record of the entire library i think uh i think it could. But I think the goal here is to free up space on devices, right? I think the goal here is to get things into order so that you don't have weird things where your devices are out of sync and to have the ability to mark that stuff as purgeable because it's stored in the cloud so that you don't have... Because what happens is people have years of iMessage history sitting on their devices. And if you can sync that to the cloud, that means that once it's in the cloud,

you can delete it from the devices, which is helpful. So I think those are the reasons. Yeah, I haven't done this yet, but I was digging around the storage settings before the trip on beta 4. And you know where you go into about and you go into storage and usage.

That whole screen is really fantastically designed now. It's really nicely broken out. And one of them was just like, hey, you can get eight gigabytes of data back if you let us delete these messages from your device, but they'll be saved in the cloud. And I was like, that's really good. As soon as this becomes an official supported feature, like as soon as this is released, I'm going to do that

because they'll be there, I'll trust that they'll be there and I'll get them if I need them. It's all like the attachments and that sort of years and years and years and years of messages. But that screen is good now, like it says hey, why don't you delete some of these iTunes movies you've watched. It's a really nicely designed screen now, rather than just being

a list of apps. And then it has all the app offloading and all that sort of stuff as opposed to deleting. There's a lot of really interesting stuff in there now which i think is kind of cool okay panagiotis asked uh is the need to run windows in parallels on a mac a reason enough to stay away from the 12 inch macbook that seems pretty demanding is that demanding i feel like that would be a pretty demanding thing. Well, you know, it's running on the Intel processor, so it could do it. I feel like the bigger issues with running Parallels or any VM on a device on a Mac is RAM and storage. Because you've got to have enough memory to hold the pc memory in memory which is a lot

and you've got to have storage for a pc hard drive image and have you you know have you maxed out your macbook at that point um the processor is going to be a little bit slower but yeah i don't know um parallels and vmware stuff work okay on slower processors. I was able to use them with my MacBook Air, in fact. So it's pushing it, but I think the bigger issue is not going to be the processor being pokey. I think you've got RAM and storage issues you have to deal with, too. So that's the thing, is if you undervalue any of of those things or especially if you undervalue all of those things you will run out of speed and it will get slower so or you won't have space to install windows on your drive which could also

happen andrew asked what is the over under on an itunes overhaul this fall well we haven't we haven't seen it in uh any of the discussion of high sierra so i have to say i don't see how they would do it if if not like i'm starting to like i don't think this is gonna happen because at least i don't think it's happening any sooner like i don't think because people are pointing to like the the ipod going away it's like oh think it's happening any sooner. Because people are pointing to the iPod going away. It's like, oh, and it's going to happen quicker now. But I don't think that is really meaning that. The iPod Touch still needs iTunes. And Apple would still want to give people the way to do this stuff with older iPods.

I don't think that this is something that is imminent. I feel like iTunes has still got a lot of life left in it yet and we won't see an itunes overhaul in my opinion until there's already an apple music app i don't think that this is like a one and done like a pulling the tablecloth out from underneath the table like i i feel like the apple music will appear on the mac and itunes will still live for a while and then they'll slowly kind of put some more component pieces in but i don't we're definitely not seeing it in 2017 i would say maybe 2018 we see like apple music on the mac or something and then starts to move on from there but i really don't

think that this is an imminent thing anymore i just i feel like they would have announced it if they were doing it this fall yeah i agree with you yeah with high sierra because this is a this is this strikes me as being an os feature hi sierra uh this strikes me as being an os feature so the fact that they didn't announcement didn't announce it at wwdc that was the moment where i thought oh okay not gonna happen this year moving on doesn't mean they couldn't do it along the way. They did photos right in the spring and had that be in an OS update that came out in the spring. Photos appeared. But I don't know. I think we've seen their story for the Mac and I would be surprised if they kept something like that hidden and then dropped it in the fall. It could happen, but it goes against everything in their playbook about the Mac. James wanted to know how many apps can be placed in the dock on iOS 11. And I looked into this.

It is 13 apps plus the three recent apps on the 10.5 and 9.7. And it is 15 apps plus the three recent apps on the 12.9. So the three recent apps is like three apps on the right-hand side, which are like three apps you've recently used. So you can just quickly access them again.

So it's slightly different between the two sizes, but it's still quite a lot in there. And of course you can put folders in there too, course you can put folders in there too so you can have everything if you want but you can put folders in there. Do you have any folders in your dock as it is

right now? I have one where it just has like Google Docs stuff and things like that. No, no. I tried it and I hated it. Honestly, I hated having the folder there and I hated the extra step of having to open it up in order to get the apps in there. And I'm also, because I've heard Fraser and Federico

talk about the issues with multitasking and how things have to be in the dock. I don't have apps. I don't have so many apps that I use occasionally in split-screen multitasking that I can't put them in the dock which i know they do but like i don't i have on the 12 9 i've got 15 apps there i don't have 15 apps in my dock because i just don't and and i don't want to put a folder in there even for organizational purposes

because it's an extra tap then every single time i want to bring up that that app so i don't then every single time I want to bring up that app. So I don't. Josh asked, should Apple consider an iPad upgrade program mimicking what Microsoft is now doing with the Surface? So a week or two ago, Microsoft announced that there is a new Surface program in which you can sign up

and you'll get a new Surface every year. It's called Surface Plus and Surface Plus for Business. And you're effectively on a 24-month contract. But after the 18-month point has passed, you can return the previous contracts and sign up again and get a new Surface device. So I was thinking about this. This is another way to move iPads right like if that's the

thing that you want to do i don't know but i feel like this is maybe a little bit more of a uh last ditch attempt i don't know it's it's financing is what it is it's financing. It's financing and also trying to create a scenario of sort of forced upgrade. It's not quite forced, but like creating an upgrade cycle where there isn't one. Saying you like the latest and greatest, so you can just pay us monthly and every 18 months you can get the latest and greatest. I would think that, I don't know, the people who want the latest and greatest are just going to go out and buy it the day that it's available. So we come back to what is this? And it's sort of like, well, somebody who wants to pay a flat amount every month, not have these occasional large purchases. I can see some value in that. Apple has offered sort of financing programs in the past maybe this is the future

maybe the future is subscription services for our technology but i don't know um the fact that apple hasn't done it so far suggests that apple's not super motivated to do this i will say um cellular carriers do this with ipads now that's very true with a cellular ipad they will do this and i have a friend who is still who is impatiently waiting for his i think t-mobile um ipad a payment period to end so that he can get a new ipad so you know they, they are out there. Those are more traditional, like cellular-based, you know, reimbursement kind of things. But it's all sort of similar. It's all just a matter of what, you know, as a company, you just want to say, what can I do to make people give me money? And if it's offer them a monthly plan where they get to turn in their thing and get a new one every 18 months, great.

Let's do that. And if they think that that will make a big difference, but there's overhead there. And I think Apple is so focused on the iPhone, I think maybe the iPad will just take care of itself. And finally today, Jeff asked whether the iPad iOS 11 keyboard is coming to the iPhone as well. So I assume that what Jeff is referencing here is the new iPad keyboard, which you can swipe on the keys to access punctuation and additional characters and numbers and stuff like that. So I wanted to just kind of, my thinking on this, I don't think that this is going to come to the iPhone because it's currently different on each iPad.

So the smaller size gets the swiping keys for all punctuation, so the entire keyboard has these little glyphs on it, which is every key has another function that you can do if you swipe down on it. But the 12.9 will only allow you to do this for the number row. You still have to click into a button to bring up these additional keys. So my thinking is on the account that they've already decided that this isn't something that they need to mimic for both iPads, I don't think that we're going to see it for the iPhone either.

Plus, it would already be an iOS 11. Yeah, exactly right. I mean, technically technically the iOS 11 keyboard is coming to the iPhone because iPhones run iOS 11 and the keyboard that's on the iPhone in iOS 11 is the iOS 11 keyboard for the iPhone but yes you're right I think he means the little swipe down thing

and that is yeah just on the 9, 7 and the 10, 5 iPad Pros and iPads they're not even on the 12, 9 sadly I guess sadly I don't know it's a full even on the or and ipads they're not even on the 12 9 sadly i guess sadly i don't know it's a full screen on the 12 9 so full-size keyboard we're doing good on the 12 9 we don't need it i don't even want it it is nice to not have to hit the other button though right let's say you hit a button and then you have it is it's really nice i like it a lot i think there

are a lot i think uh there's a lot to be said for it. Yeah, it's a pretty cool thing. I think, I don't know, I think the ergonomics of the phone and the iPad are so different that going that direction where you've got a lot of things that kind of get triggered on pull-down, where would you, you can't label them, right?

Because there's no room on an iPhone keyboard. Yeah, that's a really good point. For that secondary character labeling. So then they would be kind of a secret. And then if you're just moving fast and you swipe your finger a little bit and then you get a weird character. And I bet you they mocked something up and were like, no, forget it. This is not something that will work on the iPhone, but we could do it on the iPad. I mean, even if you could fit the labels, right?

The labels would be too small, I think. I think it would end up being pretty small. Especially on the smaller phones, right? Like, yeah yeah maybe you could do it on the plus right but like you can't continue to have this weird monster keyboard thing right like on sunday it just gets it just gets too messy and it really works great on the on the 10.5 and the 9.7 ipads the only thing i'll say on is whilst i really like it um I feel like I'm hunting for the punctuation too much. Right? Because obviously they don't seem to be in places

where I would specifically expect them to be because that's not actually how a keyboard works. Right? Like the semicolon is not actually behind the K key, right? On my keyboard. So it's like, there isn't like a muscle memory that I've built up yet eventually maybe, but I will say the numbers I've gotten really used to doing it with the numbers and I like that a lot. So, um, that one's pretty sweet. So yeah, that's it. I think that it is a good feature. Uh, but it, it requires a little bit, a little bit it requires a little bit more work

before maybe moving it to other devices if they ever would. I think it would be a bit tricky. All right, so that wraps it up for this week's episode. If you want to find our show notes, you can head on over to relay.fm slash upgrade slash 153. If you want to find Jason on the line,

he's over at sixcolors.com. He is at theincomparable.com. He's at jsnell on twitter j s n e double l and i am at i mike i m y k e i want to take one moment to thank our sponsors again the fine folk at encapsular fresh books and squarespace will we both be back next time so i think the way the way we should put it is now enters a series of special episodes yeah of upgrade so we'll have a special episode next week that mike won't be on a special episode the week after that that mike will be on with special guests and then there will be i think the week after that there's a another episode with a guest star although that'll be a more normal episode and then finally Mike will be back

so I think you're only on one of the next three so I hope that you'll miss me how could they not we have some great stuff planned I'm very excited for the episode that will be coming out on the 21st which is our special with guests

so yeah look out for that. We had an idea and the idea spiraled out of control into new and amazing things. So there you go. Look out for that one.

Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, say goodbye just now. Bye everybody.