Upgrade - 177: Stuck in the Mud

Episode Date: January 22, 2018

What comes next? The iPhone product line may see more changes in 2018, but do the rumors of two new models make sense? Is Apple missing its shot in the voice-assistant market with the delays of HomePod and the limitations of Siri? Is Apple’s move to return its cash hoard to the U.S. a financial diuretic that will boost American productivity? And if you want to get Myke’s reaction to finally seeing “Hamilton”, just you wait… it’s coming at the very end of the show.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 177 today's show is brought to you by sanebox anchor and freshbooks my name is mike hurley and i am joined by jason snell good morning jason snell welcome to another week good evening mike, Mike Hurley. Welcome to Upgrade. We have a hashtag Snell Talk question this week from Roman, and I wanted to keep the conversation going from a couple of weeks ago about your design choices on macOS. And Roman asks, what appearance setting do you use, Jason, blue or graphite? You know, when Apple introduced the appearance for an os 10 and

i don't even know when that was 10-1 maybe um because there was a lot of pushback about about aqua and how it was all this colored ui and people who did designs that it was very distracting to have all these little color bits so they're like in a a very Steve Jobs way of like, fine, you can also have it be graphite and it's just black and white. Basically it's just gray. So here it is. Take it. And thus it has remained. There is this wonderful appearance pop up in the general preferences.

And you can choose from blue or graphite. That's it. Those are your choices. It's never changed. Badly named choices as well. Blue and graphite that's it those are your choices it's never changed badly named choices as well blue and graphite because it's not like it turns everything blue right no i mean literally when when when your appearance is set to blue you have the red and yellow uh buttons everyone's favorite on the windows and the green shade of blue red red, yellow, and green. Red, yellow, and green. Those are the best.

Those are my favorite shades of blue. I have the blue setting because although there are many colors I can't see very well, I can see colors and I like colors. And blue is a color I can see well. So why would I? I have no desire to desaturate my UI. I never have. And so I'm fine with it. I do think it is funny, though, that this is one of those things that really only exists because when OS X came out, a bunch of designers complained that they didn't like the color UI elements.

And so there was a moment of like, fine, here. And then literally it just stays there forever. It's pretty funny. Yeah, with nothing stays there forever it's pretty funny yeah with nothing ever changed it is it's interesting i uh i use gray i have the the graphite you are in graphite but i do one weird little thing as well i'll just get to now cgb gray turn me on to this uh in accessibility under display there is a checkbox for increased contrast and i use that and i like i prefer the way everything looks everything's bolder and stronger uh with ui elements that's just my weird little thing that i do yeah i i tried that and it it reminds me it it feels it feels wrong, and it feels almost like going backward to old Mac OS days,

the kinds of things that people like me and John Syracuse talk about, where suddenly everything's got heavy lines and the menu bar is white, and I don't need that. I do have in that accessibility area, I do have differentiate without color checked on, which is just a little thing that lets you in certain circumstances it um it will make sure that uh color is not the only way you can differentiate between different buttons and uh back i don't know where exactly uh this

actually gets used it used to be be that iChat was a good example where there were different sort of like statuses. And by default, they were sort of shown by a little circle with color, but you could set it so that instead it was like a square or a circle or a triangle of different colors. I had that too, actually. I don't know why, but I changed it to have the little icons as well as the colors.

It's just easier to see. So I do have that, but I don't know if it actually is doing much, but that's all. So you can send in your hashtag Snell Talk questions about whatever you want, just like Roman did. So send a tweet with the hashtag Snell Talk

and it may be included on a future episode. Thank you to Roman. So I want to do a bit of follow-out for Jason's wonderful show Download, where this week you went into detail about a big story um about apple in regards to money so apple has taken advantage of new tax legislation in the united states to bring foreign money back to the u.s uh they're giving bonuses to staff and they're

also going to create 20 000 new jobs because of all of this. Yeah, there's a whole press release that they did. Yeah. And they're also building a new campus somewhere. There's not really a lot of information about that yet, but I assume that will hold a lot of these new people, which will be... Well, and it sounds like it's tech support people. They already have tech support people,

I believe, in Austin and Sacramento, I want to say. So it sounds like they're going to do more of that in another building. But, I mean, there are so many Apple campuses. I've seen this reported. There are a couple places where this got reported as a second campus. And it's like, well, wait a second. Like, Apple has so many campuses. This is not HQ2.

This is just another set of buildings with a bunch of Apple employees in another location, just like they've got people in all sorts of places like Austin. That's very good. Sacramento and they've got multiple campuses in the Bay Area. In Cupertino, they have multiple campuses, not just Infinite Loop and Apple Park. Later on in the show, we're going to talk about another one, right? So like lots. Indeed. Campus is the wrong word probably, is that they're just opening a new employee space somewhere um yeah i mean it's gonna have a lot of people in it and that's great i have really conflicting feelings about a lot of this stuff um because this is like big business doing big business things right like i think there is a there is a tendency to paint Apple as this mythical, wonderful company that makes every right decision. But, I mean, this is just him doing big business stuff, right?

They didn't have to wait to do any of these things. Apple has the money to have done all of this stuff without needing to bring this US money back. Or they could have brought it back and paid all the tax on it, right? It's just about what the law is at the time so they waited until these tax legislations that have been uh passed by the current uh government was all in place before doing any of this like obviously this is tim doing what he should do as the the ceo the biggest company in the world to make sure you can maximize the amount of money the company makes and pay the least amount of tax legally as possible. But like, my question is to people just to think about like, what does this make you feel about the company? Like, is this the company that you expect? Honestly, it's the company that I expect

because they are a big business. But I think it's just worth mentioning stuff like this, because if you don't like the thought of this, we'll just assume that Apple isn't perfect. I i don't know that's all i have to say i i don't really understand enough of this stuff but that's how it makes me feel yeah it's not my favorite subject either um i i think it's look i think it's great that the that apple has for a while now been highlighting ways it impacts the u.s economy um and creates jobs and spends money in the u.s i think that that is a one of the savvier kind of pr and political pr things that they've done for a while now this is hardly the first of those we can go back and forth a lot and it all depends on sort of like how you view tax policy and how businesses work and all that because apple could have brought this cash in earlier they would have

just had to pay more in taxes but it's been a discussion for the last maybe five years of in Congress. And I would actually say goes across administrations. It's been happening for a while this conversation about would there be a sort of like, whether you want to call it a one time holiday or a change in tax law in some way that allows them to bring the money that's held overseas back to the U.S. with a reduced tax rate. And that was basically, it's almost like a negotiation between the government and a big business saying, well, we'll bring it back for a lower rate. And then it's like, well, what's that rate going to be? Where it's low enough that we'll bring it back, but high enough that the government

is happy to take the money. And so Apple's going to pay like, I don't know what, $13 billion in tax or something on this. Although my understanding is actually that Apple would have been paying tax on it, I think, regardless of whether they brought it back or not. It's some change in the law. There's a lot of details here that I am not a tax expert at all. But the fact is they are a big business. tax expert at all. But, you know, the fact is, they are a big business. They are focused on money and value for shareholders. And they are concerned about government regulations and how that affects their business. And they are concerned about whether the government looks upon them positively or negatively from a, you know, a standpoint of not just tax, but regulation in general.

So one of the games that they're going to play, and every big company should be playing these games, is pointing out publicly how very important they are and how many jobs that they create and how much money they're investing in the United States, because that is a way to express to the the government that oversees them that they're um that they're important and should be either shouldn't be messed with or should be uh taken care of depending on how you want to view it so yeah it's it's it's uh but you know yeah this started i would say tim cook like announcing that the mac pro was going to be made in the u.s. was part of this.

They've tried to highlight about the app economy and how many app development jobs are out there that are basically using Apple's platforms. So they're trying to take credit beyond just Apple, but the Apple sphere of influence, because that gives them bigger numbers to report and bigger impact that they're making. So this goes on. And beyond that, I mean, it's something you said really struck me, and it's something that I've talked about for a while now, which is there's a lot of people who, and this was true, I'd say it's true less now than it was back then, because Apple is so clearly an enormous business with high stock price and all that.

And they don't have the mythical figure anymore that the mythical figure anymore right well that's true but still even now but less than it was five or ten years ago i i would have these conversations with people five or ten years ago where they'd be like oh i you know why does apple do this and why does apple do this and i'm really disappointed in them and i would say okay you love apple you love apple's products. That's great. I know you feel a connection there. They're connected to you personally, probably to your livelihood. There's lots of connection there, lots of emotional connection there, which is great. So many people made an emotional connection to Apple or believed in the products. We both have it, right? We both have it. Yeah, absolutely. The problem is they are a profit-making business regulated by lots of rules about serving their shareholders and about the value of the shareholders' holdings.

And that's just – it's sort of like being a fan of a baseball team or something like that, a sport, any sort of sports franchise. It's like, they're a business. You're their customer. And you can feel attachments to them because people certainly do that with sports stuff too. But in the end, they are a business. They are going to make decisions based on money. And some of them you may not like. And that's just, they're not a charity.

They're a business and they're going to run it that way. And that's just, they're not a charity. They're a business and they're going to run it that way. And it's always important to keep that in mind. Just keep your eyes open to that part of it, which is, this is, you know, and now it's more clear that Apple is a huge business. There was a while there where Apple might as well have been a charity because it was not going so great, but that's not the case anymore. And you can see it more clearly now. And I'm not saying don't feel an emotional attachment to Apple or Apple products or what the Mac or the iPhone or the iPad means to you.

It's just be aware of the other part of it, which is this is not a company that's making decisions because it wants to make the most people happy. It's a company making decisions because it wants to be successful and fulfill its corporate ideals and yes, make people happy, happy customers who give them money. That's just how it is. That is the nature of the relationship. And if Apple was just trying to increase everybody's happiness,

but not actually bring in any money, they would be in trouble because their shareholders would be very angry at them that's all i'm just i'm not trying to to say wake up sheeple here or anything like that i'm just saying no let's all let's all keep it in mind that that this this stuff is they have they have attorneys tax attorneys and this is why they create with this kind came up with the like the tax shelters in in ireland and all that it same thing. It's like, you know, you can love the products, but of course they're hiring attorneys to navigate to pay the least amount of tax possible because that's their job. That is, you know, you don't have to like it, but you got to be aware of it. But on the flip side, there are amazing things. Like today, there's a press release from Apple that they are going to be funding the Malala Foundation

to support girls' education, right? So there's like this big piece on the Apple newsroom today that they're going to be funding for the Malala Fund, like just a ton of money. So that's also the good stuff, right? That not all companies do these kinds of things. It's great that they do. So that's what kind of stuff makes you feel good about them.

But then there are also things where it's not so much and i'm definitely i'm definitely not saying um apple doesn't do anything but be a cold unfeeling corporation right apple does a lot of things because of their corporate kind of corporate beliefs and and uh and their their feeling of being a positive force in the in and all that. They do stuff too. But it's also a giant corporation. They have that. And you can't ignore it. And if they didn't have that, then they wouldn't be around anymore.

It is what it is. Anyway, so let's move on. Last week, we decided that the ongoing media segment should get its own name. So we petitioned the Upgradians to come up with some suggestions. And I've picked out, Jason, my favorites. So many people suggested this, but Kate was first in the chat room. Upstream, Matt suggested Media Outlook. Mark suggested Mike TV in honor of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

Tom suggested Antenna Upgrade, but I prefer just Antenna. I think Antenna sounds good. I like one words where we can. Phil suggested Showtime. Chris suggested Pre-Roll. And Mark suggested TV Guide, which I thought was also quite clever. Which do you like, Jason Snell? are quite clever which do you like jason snell i kind of like upstream because it's like upgrade and streaming video yeah i think that's where it comes from you know it's like that's the it means

what it says and says what it means and i like that i kind of like mike tv uh i don't think it's the right name uh also because it's fun if you it's fun it has the advantage of like I'm just going to have you do all the work on that one then because it's Mike TV it's not Jason TV I don't need to be involved at all you can just pre-tape that we'll drop it in Mike TV here's Mike we can do Mike TV with Jason Snell right like that's how that works

interesting is that how that works but I like it because it's a Charlie and the chocolate factory uh reference right that's mike tv was the kid who got beamed into a television on that and that was fun what about you they are my two favorites oh so we need to decide between one of them well it's upstream then i think it's got to be upstream so upstream is the name of our new media segment, and we are about to begin the first ever Upstream. So Disney has hired an ex-Apple executive to guide some of their video launches.

So BamTech Media, which is a company we spent a bunch of time talking about, hired a guy by the name of Kevin Swint. Swint has previously worked at both Apple and Samsung. The Variety report doesn't specify what he did at Apple. We assume it's something on the media side, but as you can imagine. The report I saw said that he was in charge of the movies area of iTunes, which is not, I don't know.

I guess that means that includes maybe making deals and how movies get marketed and do they get special extras on the iTunes version and all that. But it's unclear exactly, but something in that area. So Swint has been tasked to build and run what will eventually become Disney's upcoming Netflix competitor. So Disney are building multiple streaming services. One of them is to include all of their properties. So like, for example disney isn't renewing any contracts with netflix right because they're going to take all of their stuff and they're going to sell it to you for a monthly fee uh swint's credentials is he built a service samsung called milk which is their music and streaming service i had no idea this product ever existed. Who knows if he's the right person for this?

I saw some interesting people tweeting about this. I saw some stuff popping up in my timeline. They're like, Disney hired a guy who's created potentially two failed streaming services to run my streaming service. So, you know, we'll see what happens there. But Disney are making some serious moves.

And I really hope that they're going to get the good front-end tech to go with their good back-end tech for this. We'll have to wait and see. J.J. Abrams is shopping around a TV space drama. It's a spec script that he's got right now, showing it to a bunch of people. Apparently the most interested parties are Apple and HBO. My question on this is if apple got this wouldn't this be their third space show feels like too much like that's too much like that would be another another side well so here's the

the the argument against it is it's too much sci-fi stuff and you want to balance it out the argument for it is that apple's gonna have a somewhat well apple's gonna have a somewhat nerdier audience so maybe it's okay if there's more sci-fi stuff on there it's jj abrams getting a deal with jj abrams probably not a bad idea and uh i will point out like the biggest the biggest hits on tv right now are genre it's the walking dead and game of thrones the biggest hits for decades now in film are blockbuster genre movies mostly science fiction fantasy action kind of stuff it is um yeah and so maybe you pursue it anyway hoping that one of these things is gonna gonna hit and be a game of thrones kind of like buzz show and again the kind of people to to be in uh in business with

like steven spielberg and jj abrams it's not not necessary and run more right it's like these are also creators that you want to be in business with so um i'm i'm i see the other side though which is like we we said this last week it does seem a little bit like they don't want to be the sci-fi channel, right? And that's the danger here. At the same time, HBO's got Westworld and Game of Thrones, and I think they've got some other sci-fi projects as well. So I could go either way on that. I think they probably look at this and say, look, all things things being equal we wouldn't be bidding on another science fiction show necessarily but it's a spec script from jj abrams i think it's the first script that he's done for tv since fringe i want to say that's

what the uh the hollywood report was saying yeah yeah he produces a lot of tv but he hasn't actually like built his own tv show in a while that he has written so uh and hbo is interested too which means that that price is just going to keep getting driven up it's good to be jj abrams i guess but yeah yeah i think right now if you have a script to shop around you want to see apple's name in it right if you want that money to go up you want to see their name in it right it seems like you want to see netflix you want to see amazon like that's how the price is again pushed up right now because there is this there is an arms race going on um apple have also grabbed some more office space in culver city uh hbo backed out of a deal for these office this

office space which apple has now moved in i like that the company that owns the building they were like we were excited about hbo we were a lot more excited about Apple. I'm sure you are. For those that don't know, Culver City is a city in California that has been historically popular for Hollywood. It's kind of just where everybody is. It's like, what is it? The MGM lot is there, which Sony owns now, I think I read about on Wikipedia. It makes sense that Apple would want to have some real specific space there

if they're already leasing some space, but this will be a bit more serious, a bit more prominent. So continuing to make those moves. So that was our first ever upstream. Should that be a hashtag? Should we hashtag upstream or just upstream? I think it's... we're not

really soliciting... Not yet, anyway. anyway you know comments that drive the content right like ask upgrade and snell talk too so i would say no i know you like custom art for the people who get custom art on chapter markers in their podcast apps um i i doubt it will be there in this episode because that would require the art to be created while we're talking which is probably not going to happen but uh but soon there will be who knows what it will look like even but uh that's the main reason we do these segments yeah i think is to get cool art it's one of my big reasons i love the art i love the art so much

so i know uh but i like the segments the segments are fun so but i will say if you come across the upgrade ins any uh any interesting news uh please send it in because I'm at the moment struggling to find out where to get this stuff from. So because my feeling – so basically if I start following Variety and Hollywood Reporter on Twitter, I'm going to get too much stuff that I don't want to see. I'm already following all of this because of TV Talk Machine. All right. You just send me the links and then I'll do it. Thank you. That's all I want.

All right, yes, sir. We're going to finish out the episode today with something a little bit special. The first and maybe only ever Mike at the Matinee. I saw Hamilton and I need to talk about it. And Jason Snell was the person that I will talk about Hamilton with. So that's going to be the end of our show. Seems fair. All right, let's take a break.

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freshbooks.com slash upgrade for a 30-day free trial. Thanks to FreshBooks for their support of RelayFM. So, there was a report via 9to5Mac from KGI Securities. are cagey uh at best with their rumors but they they talk sense a lot of the time so and i and i like this i think so they are having a report uh about the the iPhone lineup for this year.

KGI is saying that there will be three new iPhones debuted this year. There'll be an iPhone X successor. Think of an iPhone XS. A 6.1-inch LCD model to replace the iPhone 8. It will look in style to the iPhone X, so notch and face ID and all that kind of stuff, but priced to be cheaper in the $650 to $700 range. So this will replace the 8 and the 8 Plus, like this is that phone. Then there will be a 6.5 inch OLED iPhone X Plus, which is a very interesting lineup to have.

KGI suggests, interestingly, that Apple may actually stop making the current iPhone X completely this year it won't fall down the line as a cheaper model apple will come in to the end of this year with a brand new lineup of phones one of the reasons they're said to be doing this is that the iphone 10 has not been selling as well as predicted in china again all coming from kgi's reports they're an analyst firm always Always take those things with a grain of salt, but they do their work and they're paid for it. And apparently

this, because it's not that popular in China, it's harming the overall sales of the model. And apparently, this is being said because there is a perception that the notch has been a turn-off, as it indicates wasted screen space. And the 6S and the 7 and all the Plus models and the 8s they're still

selling really good because they've got these big full screens because in china big screen phones are a huge deal it's one of the reasons that apple created the plus in the first place kgi believe that if they do ship all three new units this year that iphone shipments will grow 10 year on year so thinking about this my first question is, I don't fully understand that last part, because if there are problems in China about the notch, why would having three phones of a notch improve this? That's my question. I mean, maybe the thinking is like, if you have a stronger lineup overall, which all embraces this design that maybe it might make it more desirable in some way or by having the iphone 10 plus it serves that purpose because that is a huge screen at that point so maybe that's what they need like maybe it will be the

plus model that tips it over but i don't think that kgi and the report have gone into detail about like why doing this will turn the tide in china now unless unless there's something embedded in this that's an assumption that an iphone uh 10 successor might have a slightly different design where they they get rid of the notch and just leave a little bit of headspace at the top yeah it might be smaller at least right so like there's still a notch but like it's much more like it's much less significant than the current one. And if that is the case, if they do make a refinement to the design, then I could understand why the X would go away completely.

But apparently they're hearing rumors that the iPhone X will be considered end of life in August. I actually think that's one of the most reasonable things in this report, is the idea that the X, being a high-end and expensive device is maybe not as conducive to being rolled down the price structure at this point as the other models are. And I don't – I mean, this is something we talked about, about naming. I don't see where you go with the iPhonehone 10 in terms of a name unless you really just go all right and now it's iphone 11 but i don't i i look at this as apple replaying what they did with the os 10 brand which is 10 is the brand and so a new iphone 10 this fall will be the new iphone 10 that's it like the new iphone 10, iPhone 10, uh, 2018 model. And then next year will be the iPhone 10,

2019 model. And it'll just keep going like that. I think that that is a very possible direction because it gets Apple off of the, uh, name incrementing thing. It's just the iPhone 10 means this phone, this model,

like the iPhone SE means this phone. So Apple has started naming the chips, right right like bionic and stuff like that do you think we could see something like that with the iphone 10 so it like becomes like the iphone 10 bionic like that would delineate the new model i think it's possible um it depends i mean that's that's a marketing question of like can does apple feel like it can sell a new iphone with the you know can you can you sell a new iphone 10 that's a marketing question of like, can, does Apple feel like it can sell a new iPhone with the, you know, can you, can you sell a new iPhone 10? That's just the new iPhone 10 to people who have last years or two years ago as iPhone 10.

Now in every other product they sell, that is the case, right? Like the new iPad pro is just the new iPad pro. My, you know, I have, I have the iPad pro 2017, right? Versus a 12.9 inch 2017, as

opposed to 2015, right? But they're just, it's not a new number. It's not the iPad Pro 12 inch, you know, 12.9, two, right? It's, it's not. So they, there's a marketing question there, which is like, do you need to sort of give it a spin and this is the iPhone? Yeah, then you're turning it into like OS X nicknames, right? Where you're giving it bionic infusion and things like that. I think it's possible.

Because my challenge would be that like the iPhone is the only product that Apple has where they expect or want their customers to buy a new one every year, right? Like everything else is like people have their timeframes in which they replenish. Like the iPad, like most people don't buy iPads every year, right?

We know that. We can see that in the numbers. But the iPhone is like people want that every one or two years. You want people to be moving through it. So my thinking would be that having the same name my app open apple up to the criticism that they'd faced previously to the iphone 10 it's like nothing's changing right like the phones look the same yeah so my concern would be having it after the same name would draw the same problem of like oh it's no different because they didn't even change the name right so i i would expect

that's the counter argument for sure i totally i'm on board with the theory that it will be iphone 10 but i think that they will give some kind of way to differentiate the name a little bit i don't know what it would be but uh but i i do think that like iphone 10 is a brand of its own that is like a new brand um we'll see how that goes. It should be. It should mean this kind of phone, right? The phone that looks like this, that has the OLED screen,

that's got the Face ID, this is the iPhone X. And as long as this look is around, it will be the iPhone X. Now, maybe if they do a big upgrade and they get rid of the notch in two or three years or whatever, maybe that's also still the iPhone 10 or maybe not.

Maybe at that point, it's the iPhone something else. Maybe not 11 because I do think they want to get off the numbers here. I feel like in the end, we're going to have iPhone SE, iPhone and iPhone 10, or maybe it's iPhone SE, iPhone something and iPhone 10. And then iPhone always remains the name, but the numbering goes away and it's more just about what, you know, what's in the lineup. And I think that is better because I do think that in the end, you probably don't want to sell the iPhone 14. Yeah. What do you think about this proposed actual lineup of phones? Like a new 10,

a 10 plus and a new one to replace the existing phones? iPhone 10 plus we talked about, I think, a couple weeks ago. And I think it's great. It was last week. It was our wish list, right? I would love to see it because I know there are people who like larger phones. And a larger iPhone X, if the iPhone X satisfies me and I don't like a larger phone, that makes me feel like there are people who are not happy with

the size of it and that would like a bigger phone. And that person is not me, but I think that that market must exist. So that sounds great. It all breaks down for me with this other model and the idea that it would replace the 8, which I also don't, it doesn't follow. Like a 6.1 inch lcd phone does not replace any existing iphone models right it is not even close the existing models are 4.7 and 5.5 so a big lcd to replace the 8 doesn't make sense to me what about if it still costs you $1,000 to get into OLED minimum? Yeah, but this is not about fitting it to a price. It's about reaching a market.

If you clear out all the smaller phones, and I'm not talking about the SE, I'm talking about the iPhone 8, and say, say no we're not doing that anymore the next phone is going to be in an it's just going to be another enormous phone it's going to be bigger than the plus in terms of screen diagonal like i just that that's that's so i guess what i'm saying is i guess i could see this product as kind of an additional model almost like a almost like a an iphone 9 plus kind of phone it's a cheaper way to get into face id in the new design right i

think that's that was why this would exist right for that reason so it is like and i do agree with you that it seems strange to be like we're gonna replace two phones with one phone that's big. So I just don't believe it makes any sense that there would not be a standard iPhone. But what if just the 8 is still around and cheaper? Well, this is the question, is would you, are we at the end, or is there another phone to come? Because my problem with it is I still feel like the standard iPhone, the 4.7-inch diagonal iPhone that's the iPhone 8,

is a huge seller. Just my gut feeling. KGI confirmed that 6S, 7, and 8 are still selling great. Yeah. i know that it's success seven and eight is still selling great yeah so why would you say we're no longer going to make a new model in that shape why why would you do that if you're apple why would you not just let it ride another year and make it faster and take the plus maybe and turn that into something that looks a little bit more like the 10 and keep it around because, I mean, that's a big step to say, hey, this is perhaps our best model, best-selling model.

And if not, it's one of our best-selling models. But we're just not going to update it. We're just going to let you can still buy the iPhone 8. And we've moved on. I don't know. I feel like there's probably space in there for another year and an iPhone 9 to do that. But this report suggests, and again, sometimes I wonder about these reports

because they're about new models and therefore existing model shapes can be invisible to them. So it could be that they're also going to do an iPhone 9 that's 4.7 inch and it looks just like the one that's there now and it'll have new internals and it's not on their radar because it's not a different shape.

It looks exactly like an iPhone 8 and therefore they they can't see the parts aren't that different uh and their intelligence from the supply chain can't help 100 imagine four phones there is the regular iphone the plus is replaced by this 6.1 inch lcd and then you have to two two outlet phones yeah i think there isn't really in my if they make this this 6.1 inch lcd phone there's no point having the plus around anymore you may as well get this new exactly this new model which gives you all of that plus face id for a cheaper price at a lower price and that's the that's the big thing whether it's yeah i mean At a lower price. And that's the big thing.

Whether it's, yeah, I mean, let's assume that it's Face ID and not Touch ID because if they're doing a new design, presumably they would move it to Face ID. And the OLED screen is presumably the thing that is the biggest limiter in terms of the cost of the hardware. And so it allows them to price it down below what the 10 and the 10 plus would be. Yeah. I mean, I think if you had me just, you know, throw a dart at the dartboard and say, you know, pick a scenario. I think the scenario that I would pick, I would aim for would be that, which is 9, 9 plus, 10, 10 plus. 9 Plus, 10, 10 Plus. And that gives them a spread. And then presumably they keep selling the 8 and the 8 Plus at lower price. And then the SE down on the bottom.

And that's your iPhone product line, which gives them a range of prices. I could almost see them taking that iPhone 6 size and just making it like the SE, right? Like there's just this cheaper one and it's this size and you can get it if you want it but the future is over here and then they just keep it around for for a period of time with older technology and then just refresh it yeah yeah so it's it's it's fascinating the um the 6.1-inch LCD model is really fascinating to me because presumably it would be kind of like taking the 8 Plus and doing the bezel-less thing like the X, but with a cheaper display. And so you'd get more screen out of it even if it wasn't much

bigger physically and it's an interesting idea to do that like that's the part that really this thing because it looks like you have the new phone right it looks like an iphone 10 even though it's not yeah yeah it's it's fascinating if they did that and if they did that while keeping the iphone 8 style for the smaller phone which i think would fine. Cause it's the same argument as the SE, right? It's like some people like perfectly the old style is fine. Let's just keep it around. And so the iPhone five style continues in the SE, maybe that's the answer for the, uh, for the 4.7 inch diagonal with touch ID is like, well, it's kind of our old design now, but people like it. It's popular. We'll keep it around. But, um, but taking the plus and kind of like pushing design now, but people like it. It's popular. We'll keep it around.

But taking the plus and kind of like pushing it forward toward the 10, because ultimately, I think we would probably say, ultimately, Apple's goal, I think, is to have OLED phones with Face ID and not have these LCD Touch ID phones. But it's going to take years for that to roll out because they want to keep they want to maintain their price points so yeah yeah i think it's i i'm i think it's really interesting also i guess it's officially 2018 now mike the i let the iphone fall yeah that's when you know that it's really ticked over there's one last thing i want to touch on with this jason if kgi are right and the the iPhone X is underperforming in China, what does that do to Apple's earnings? Well, we will get an idea.

The big holiday quarter results call will tell us a lot. When is that? About what's going on. That is on February 1st. Oh, I've already got it on my calendar. In fact, Apple results, 1.30 Pacific, February 1st. Oh, I've already got it on my calendar. In fact, Apple results, 1.30 Pacific, February 1st, a Thursday. So what are we going to talk about in two weeks? We'll know on this show what we talk about in two weeks.

That's interesting. Yeah, Apple predicted that it would be their biggest quarter ever. Yep. Right. So if there's underperforming iPhones somewhere in the world, it may hit the numbers. How much is it underperforming? Is this kind of an overreaction?

People got the ability of Apple to ship iPhone Xs wrong. So there's been some bad reporting or some poor assumptions that have been baked in. But we'll see it. And if we don't see it, even if the pure numbers are really great we may see uh slower growth in china or something like that that would be an indicator and then i would bet almost certainly selling price as well we'll yeah almost certainly almost certainly apple uh or almost certainly analysts will ask apple about it um and tim cook really likes to talk to drill down on some China specific numbers. So I'd imagine we're going to get a good idea of how the iPhone 10 was received in China come February 1. Talking about products and releases and such and such the HomePod. So the HomePod has received FCC approval. Now, typically, Apple gets FCC approval

about a month before a product launches. Now, you may say to me, Mike, how do they do this for every iPhone? Well, there is a secret process that the FCC will go through for an unreleased product. But if a product is already known to the world, then all this stuff is public. You can see that it is a public approval. For example, the iPhone 10 received FCC approval about a month

before it shipped. It is possible that this is moving along and in about a month or so we may see the HomePods release. However, we got a little email today jason from someone in the know yeah from a uh a source i guess that's not inside apple but it was interesting and backs up some other stuff that sort of the rumblings about this which is that the hold up really here is software and maybe even specifically AirPlay 2.

The idea that the, which we've heard and speculated about before, that the HomePod hardware is fine, like it's done, and they probably made them, and they're sitting in a warehouse in China somewhere ready to ship. But the software side hasn't been there. And that AirPlay 2 in particular has been, you know, is an ambitious project and it has taken time for them to kind of get it right.

And as a result, the, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some other sort of like Siri related stuff happening too, but rather than ship the HomePod. And I think, honestly, I think Apple's thinking if we ship this and it isn't good enough, people are going to just destroy us.

And they're not going to just say this is a bad product. They're going to say Apple can't beat Amazon or with Alexa or with the Google Assistant or other competitors that are out there. Like Apple will look really, really bad because they're entering late into this market. So I would agree i'd agree with that you can't enter late and badly right like that's that's not good they kind of need to stick the landing even if they've set expectations for exactly what they're doing here and what they're not doing here like the home pod is what it is. It is one product from Apple. So they're still going to be seen as kind of being behind here. But if it's good at what they say it's for, then it will be

received positively and it's a place to start. But if it's not good at what they say it's for, that's going to be bad. So anyway, it seems like from some people who seem to be in the know that this is what's going on, is that the HomePod hardware is ready, but there's been some software issues, and that's what we're waiting for. But Apple seems confident that it's going to ship early this year, which means, what, between now and April? So, or between now and the end of April? I don't know.

Yeah, a vidit in the chat room is asking, like, what is AirPlay 2? Well, AirPlay 2 is a few different things. It's good multi-room audio support available for third parties. It's also HomeKit support as well. So these are pretty important things for the future of this type of product on Apple's ecosystem.

So this is the type of stuff that they want. And I guess that there's more features there as well, but they're the types of things that we know about right now um and that's what they need for the home part it needs to be able to support these types of things and if it doesn't well that's a disaster of a product and that might be why it's being held up i mean we were also told that apparently the hardware is done and ready and waiting and it's just a case of airplay 2 being ready for as long as that may or may not take i don't even i mean personally i'm not interested in this product i don't know if people are i don't know if that this is something where like the home pod is being eagerly awaited

by the masses i don't know i mean it it looks like an interesting product i think it'll have a market as we talked about when it was announced it feels like a niche product and the fact that it's from apple means that it will probably appeal to a wider audience than the same product would if it was released by sonos let's say but it is you know this it's a music player pod with voice control and also presumably app control through AirPlay 2. And so, you know, there are lots of those out there now. And maybe Apple's will be really good. And it will have integration that other devices don't have because it's from Apple. But I'm with you. I mean, this is,

this has been the curious thing about this product. It's most notable because it's from Apple and it's Apple's first voice controlled sort of a standalone device. And that's, that's interesting more than it is because this is, this is, is you know for the price and what you get it is a narrower market than a lot of the other competitive products here so um and that might be good i mean in the end it might be good at that and that might make it a successful product even if it's to a smallish audience but i don't think it's going to have the broad broad appeal of something like airpods right it's not that kind of product. Well, I mean, between this being announced in June and where we are eight months later,

probably by the time it gets out to the world, Amazon and Google have not been resting on their laurels. And CES this year was flooded with smart assistant products yeah this is um i wrote a piece about this for mac world following up on a couple of pieces meant uh brian chan at the new york times ben baharan who had his tech pinions piece republished and recode um and both of them made this observation that the hot products at ces this this year, the ones that everybody has CES. CES is all about tech companies, consumer electronics, hardware companies, especially falling over themselves to find an angle, like to find an angle for them to sell a product. And so it's oftentimes it's integrating with or connecting with some

popular product. So when I was going to CES, a lot of it was, how can we get this to be an angle with the iPhone? So it was, this is a case for the iPhone. This is a battery case. This is a battery. This is a screen protector. And some of it was, this is a weird piece of hardware, but we have an app that sort of talks to it but uh that gives us a story to tell about the iphone and that's that's what it's all about right um and so what ben and brian are saying is well uh it used to be that people bend over backwards to uh to connect themselves to apple but at ces this year everybody was trying to connect themselves to the google assistant and to Amazon Echo.

That is such a good point, right? Because it was like, oh, our product now has a 30-pin dock connector in it, so you can put your iPhone and iPod. Like, you know, that was the big thing. And now it's just like, oh, no. As well as all of the other things that our product can do, it also has Google Assistant built right in. Like, there are, like in yeah right like there's a light switch there's a toilet there's a toilet with cortana of course there is yes right so but there was some really interesting looking products as well like there's a lot of junk but

there's some really good looking stuff if you're in that world so this is this is always the thing with ces is ces there's a lot of junk and it is so much of it is what I just described, which is let's desperately try to find some popular product for us to connect ourselves to so that we can convince people that this is a product that they want to buy. And that's just, I mean, that's business. That's how it is. Sort of like when we were talking about Apple's business, like that's, that's, I'm not trying to render judgment here on the business approach. I am trying to say, let's just be clear about what's going on here. And a lot of the products that I saw that connected to the iPhone at CES were garbage. They were crappy cases or badly designed battery cases or things that were supposed to do things that they basically couldn't, that I knew iOS couldn't do, but they were claiming they could do.

There was a lot of that, a lot of sort of snake oil because they hadn't really thought through their pitch they were just trying to to connect themselves to apple and apple apple unlike google and amazon with the echo um apple kind of holds everybody at arm's length apple is uncomfortable with uh with the ces kind of market those companies and when they allow them to play in their ecosystem it's at arm's length and it's with apple being in complete control as much as possible like the made for iphone licensing home kit licensing that's uh the app store with an approval process like that's how apple interacts whereas ces would much prefer it be the wild west which you know microsoft and intel always were like fine and i think uh google and amazon are to a point as well like yes uh we here's

an open thing come on in everybody and so everybody's taking advantage of it also it's they're new like i i don't think the the companies at ces or in the tech industry in general are saying well we're not interested in the iphone anymore but all the connections to the iphone have been made and the app store like connected devices we assume that if you've got some sort of toy robot it will have an app right that's not's not going to make news. But connections to Alexa or Cortana or Google Assistant will make news. So that's part of it. And a lot of people push back on Ben and Brian's statements, and I did too, because on one level, I think it's really easy to overstate the importance of Apple being mentioned at CES because so much of the stuff at CES was garbage,

is garbage, doesn't ship, nobody buys it. It's not important. But as much as, so I do roll my eyes a little bit at the kind of like puffing up of the importance of CES for Apple because Apple kind of never cared. I do understand what they're saying in terms of it being a barometer, because if you've got a huge trade show full of these companies, large and small, that are trying to find an angle in order to sell their products, and all of them are talking about Apple as the angle, and then two or three years later, all of them are talking about Amazon Echo and Cortana and Google Assistant as the angle. That's an important data point. It doesn't mean, oh God, Apple is doomed or anything like that. And Ben Baharan, to his credit, said,

I'm not saying that here. But it does say something, which is that the hot new thing that everybody's rushing to try and profit from in some way is not in Apple's ecosystem right now. There was HomeKit stuff there. HomeKit seems to be moving along. But the hot products were not from Apple. The hot things that everybody was trying to connect with are Amazon and Google and, to a lesser extent, Microsoft's voice assistants. And that's something to think about. And, and I think what is challenging here is that Apple's approach is not the same as these other companies, right?

So Apple doesn't have like Amazon has this whole, um, set of Alexa connectivity, like the official connectivity. And then like the skills library where which is kind of like an app store for uh amazon echo skills and and and uh plugins and what does siri have almost nothing right we know very limited iphone apps with access to siri kit almost nothing there there's no siri outside right home pod hasn't shipped yet there's no siri outside of

these you know these this existing set of apple devices either yeah and there definitely won't be any devices that come from other companies that have siri embedded in the way that google and amazon are now allowing for it seems it seems unlikely right so so so some of this is structural, which is Apple made decisions that make it less likely for your average CES product to connect with it. And that goes back to the wanting control and wanting everybody at arm's length. And it's like, that makes sense. Also, you've got this weird kind of bifurcation that makes sense if you're viewing it from Apple's standpoint to a certain extent anyway. I mean, I could argue about Siri, like what is Siri exactly? And I'm not sure Apple knows.

It keeps defining it in different ways. But Apple has Siri. Siri has SiriKit, where you can use Siri to control certain apps, but that's not quite the same as the apps plugging back in and being data sources for Siri. Then you've got HomeKit, which is in ways siri in the sense that one of its big selling points is home kit is the only way that you can use siri to control smart home devices right is is you've got to go through home kit because siri only goes to home kit so you've got you know apple's approach to this is different and we've seen like historically that one of the

challenges apple has in being understood by the rest of the tech industry is that Apple just doesn't behave like other companies. And it gets frustrating. It's like, well, why don't you just open it up wide like these other companies? And Apple's like, yeah, we're not going to do that. So it's an interesting case where I think on one level, maybe too much is being made of this. but on another level, it is an important data point that Apple is just rolling out their first sort of embedded smart assistant device, which even though it's very audio focused

at a time when so much of the tech industry is doing a kind of gold rush into the smart assistant stuff, which could be seen as good, but their competitors are ahead of them and their competitors are allowing these third parties access to their systems in ways that Apple doesn't. And that could go either way. Like you could look at history and say, this could be good for Apple because Apple's going to keep a lid on it. And, you know, adding Alexa skills is a pain. It's an enormous pain. Like the interface is terrible. I will tell you, it's great that all those things are there, but I don't, I think it's

a mess, right? I don't think it's something that Apple would want to approach in the same way. But at the same time, they are there and there are a lot of other devices that will connect with those systems. And meanwhile, Apple's kind of off on its own plane with Siri and HomeKit. And it's worth watching how that goes because it could be good for Apple. It could also be really bad for Apple because if this is the next wave of technology integration and apple's products are not only not the leaders but are kind of like at a disadvantage that could have an effect on apple's business i mean you could drown in the think pieces that have been written in the past of apple has won ces and they never were even there right but that's not a thing that's happening anymore. It's the inverse. Does that mean anything?

We have no idea of knowing right now, but it's something to keep an eye on. Are they falling behind on something that matters? We don't know. We don't know if in the grand scheme of things this stuff matters. But it's a trend in technology right now that all big tech companies are rushing towards. And if it ends up being a serious

thing then it will be interesting to see what happens to apple's approach yeah i mean this is it's funny uh and some part of this is just me being uh writing about apple for 20 years but this has all happened before and this will all happen again. It happens every year, right? Like there's the thing and it's like netbooks. And Apple, right. And sometimes it works out for Apple and sometimes it doesn't. I think Apple generally makes the right call because Apple doesn't want to be the subject of a thousand ces vendors

trying to shove their half-baked idea and use their platform to advertise it right like i get it i get that um then again the app store with its restrictions and everything, still was a huge benefit for iOS and the iPhone, right? It was a huge deal. And that involved Apple opening its doors a little bit more. And so I think there's a real question about, like, what is... You know what this entire segment has boiled down to, Mike? It's something we've talked about before, which is, what the heck is going on with Siri? Like, that's kind of what this is, which is, like, they announced it.

It was really exciting. like that's kind of what this is which is like they announced it it was really exciting but now it feels like not it's super limited and uh and they add to it every year but they add not a lot right and on the back end presumably they're updating the server stuff but it just you get this feeling like series just kind of like stuck in the mud and there are serious competitors out there that are making more connections to more stuff while Siri is sort of like you know limited app connections and a limited set of smart home devices that it'll connect to and you know again if the net result is a better experience for everybody that's great but is Siri really a better experience and is is not having compatible devices and services a better experience for everybody that's great but is siri really a better experience and is is not

having compatible devices and services a better experience for anybody i do wonder if the root of all of this is just like what exactly is siri supposed to be for apple because amazon has defined what alexa is as everything and there are problems with that approach too. But if you are trying to establish an ecosystem, it would be hard to say that there is much of a Siri ecosystem at all. And Amazon is cultivating a large Echo ecosystem with a lot of which will be bad, but it will be large so i don't know i mean i think you could make a case that apple is doing the right thing to be to be careful and i would say i like apple being careful and and not just opening the doors because that leads to a lot of junk but at the same time it's really hard not to look at this and think that apple's

still behind and that siri is still stuck in the mud this and think that Apple's still behind and that Siri is still stuck in the mud. Today's show is also brought to you by our friends over at SaneBox. If you're listening to this show, I bet there's something that you don't like about email. That's why you need to try SaneBox. SaneBox has a bunch of fantastic features that can help make your email more manageable. Because email kind of just all comes into one place and it all just sits in your inbox and it all looks the same and you can't really work out whether you need to deal with anything until you've actually taken some kind of look at it wouldn't it be great if there was a system that could take care of some of this sorting for you that's what SaneBox does it will move all

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Woo! Let's do some hashtag ask upgrade questions. Today's first question comes from friend of the show, Joe Steele. And Joe wants to know do you ever think back on tim cook saying the future of tv is apps and think maybe not so much tim um the future of tv is not apps right it is more streaming services that's what the future of tv is yeah and if you wrap those i i get what he again. Sorry for being somebody who sees both sides of this. As a way to kind of mock Apple TV, I think this is an effective approach. Thank you, Joe Steele.

the future of TV is apps accidentally because what he's really saying is we're just going to open the door and let every streaming service build their own app and we'll provide a container app that they can tie into if they want which is the TV app but is that really apps? Is that the

future of TV? I mean the nice thing is it means that every streaming service can design and develop their own app which can take advantage of being an app rather than just a dumb kind of set of containers, lists, and things, which is sort of what the old Apple TV was. At the same time, the downside of that is all the streaming services want their interface to be the same

across all the platforms, and that can lead to a really weird, disjointed experience for an Apple TV tv user let's say because then amazon doesn't behave like netflix doesn't behave like hbo doesn't behave like cbs doesn't behave like the itunes apps so um yeah yeah it's i think the future of tv is apps in the sense that the tv boxes are are platforms and streaming services need to live inside them but that may be it yeah it isn't like games or shopping things like they showed you know like when the apple tv was debuted and it was shown off tv os it's like oh you could do your shopping no it's not

any of that like that's not what it is. I feel like Apple has already realized that sort of the TV app is actually what the center of the Apple TV should be. And they did the software update where they said, oh no, now that button is going to just take you to the TV app.

And I think that would be a good decision if every other app on the platform supported it. But since many of them don't, it's not. And so you end up with it, you know, but that makes sense, right? Like if literally every streaming service that you had on your Apple TV tied into the TV app properly, then you would have a single app, not a bunch of different apps, they're in the background, that lets you see all your programs

and choose what you want to watch and then kicks off an app that's appropriate that's not a bad approach the problem is that um you end up with netflix disputing you know they don't want to provide the information that apple wants in order to make that to work and so then you're missing a huge swath of programming when stuff like that happens alan asks and this relates to our conversation from earlier, if Apple does iPhone 10 Plus, what do they do with the notch? Do they keep it the same size as it is in the 10? Or do they scale it up and make it bigger

so it fits with app design layout? This is a very interesting question. It took me a minute to visualize what Alan was asking, but it's like if you imagine the current design, do they make the notch the same size proportionally so that apps can be scaled up properly, or do they make it the same size physically because that's all you need

and then ask developers to rethink designs a little bit again because they don't need to take up as much space? I think this is a fantastic question my gut feeling since there actually is stuff happening underneath the notch like apps can draw things there you just never see them except when you're flipping and it's getting shrunk down um so my gut feeling is that they will keep the notch the same size not scale it same physical size right yeah same physical size and they will tell app developers that they should still honor the safe space up there

and and some of the some of the under notched safe space will show on the larger phone but that that's fine just don't't worry about it, is my guess. I think you're probably right. I mean, it seems like the logical way to do it. And if somebody did want to do a custom layout that took advantage

of that slightly additional space on those specific phone models, then I'm sure they can do that. But I think Apple's probably basic advice is going to be, you know, that's the that's the uh you know that's the unsafe area that could be covered by hardware so don't draw anything important in there and you know just have the background color match the background around it

so that if you're on a phone with a smaller notch or a bigger notch uh relatively speaking then you just don't have to worry about it it's's probably my guess. Todd is back with another difficult question for you, Jason. Oh, no. There's too much good TV to watch. How can I watch it all? Well, Todd, I hate to say it, but you're going to have to quit your job and just watch TV. That's how you can watch it all. Because there's literally too much.

We live in the platinum era of television. There's literally too much good TV to watch. Like I remember when we were kids, Todd, there were the shows that were good and you watched them. And then you found shows that were not so good and watch them too because you still had time to watch TV and there were no longer any good shows left to watch. This is no longer the case. Now, I don't think any person with a job and a life, even if they make time to binge shows on the weekends and whatever, I'm not sure anybody could get through all the good TV. I think not. I think it would be very hard to do. So you can't give up.

Just find stuff you like and watch that instead. Jason, can you give me some recommendations for good TV right now? What is Jason Snow enjoying on the television? We just finished Patriot on Amazon, which is a spy show. We call it Sad Spies in our house about a depressed spy who plays a guitar and sings made-up songs about his spy missions that he really shouldn't do. It's not for everybody, but I really like it. It's kind of slow-paced, do um it's not for everybody but i really like it's kind of kind of slow paced but every at every turn it does something i don't expect um so i i i would recommend that um we just started watching counterpart which is on stars in the u.s i don't know if it's going to be elsewhere in the world it just premiered on stars this weekend that stars

jk simmons um and is a kind of john lochere spy story mixed in with a uh sort of a science fiction twist that um i've only seen the pilot but i really liked it um i'm trying to think what else we're watching we're watching star trek discovery right now which is on netflix everywhere but the u.s and canada um i've watched a couple of the new black mirror episodes but uh haven't gotten further than that with those what else i don't know um that's that i mean that's there's there's some right there i mean oh travelers we just this weekend's episode of the incomparable is about the canadian science fiction series travelers which is available in most of the world on netflix and uh is excellent and surprise has surprising amounts of complexity and uh it also a lot of fun but

like its premise it truly commits to its premise it's time travel premise and uh is worth it's really worth watching okay that's a lot i mean one of them that you mentioned uh black mirror i could never watch that show i don't think. I just I can't. I don't even go near it. It's not me. No, for somebody who says that, I would say exactly what John Syracuse has said several times, which is you should watch the episode in the third season, San Junipero.

Yeah, I've heard it's a good story. It's an anthology show, so you can literally just pick and choose, and that one is the best one. So, watch it sometime. It's like a little movie. And there are a few others that I like. There are a lot of Black Mirror episodes I really dislike, but there are some that I really like.

So it's, you know, I watch them, but I watch them with a sort of skeptical eye. And I don't subject my family to them. I will occasionally rewatch an episode with lauren because i'll say oh you would like this one but most of them i don't do that just existentially depressing often it is often it is san junipero is i would say uplifting and you could argue that uss calister the first episode of this new season is also uplifting and it's kind of a mini movie and a star trek homage and although it's got some dark dark stuff in it it ends ultimately up i i would say ultimately it is a uh a fun uh uplifting kind of story as uplifting

as black mirror can can never be yeah i mean i like some of charlie brooker's stuff but i just have like a fundamental disbelief it's not an easy watch that one idea of like design like these devices are destroying us whilst he's also making money yeah from anyway but uh next question comes from wacro what is stopping amazon from creating a youtube competitor so we've spoken a bunch about amazon and youtube's struggles so i did a little bit of thinking on this and digging so you need two things you need content creators and audiences and really they have to come at the exact same time because if you have one but not the other you kind of screwed and it's incredibly difficult to do that but amazon own twitch yeah this is the answer is answer. Amazon already has a YouTube competitor.

Yeah. So the thing is, when Amazon bought Twitch, it wasn't a YouTube competitor. Because at that point, Twitch is just live streaming. So then YouTube tried to become a Twitch competitor, but their live streaming stuff is nowhere near as much as Twitch's. So Twitch is now coming from the other end, and you can do pre-recorded videos and put them on twitch so two things recently uh twitch just did a deal with disney disney owned maker studios maker studios is a youtube network that houses a lot of the biggest especially in gaming um youtubers pewdieie was in this before all of his stuff happened, right? So he had a deal with Maker Studios

for his own little mini network, but Maker Studios is one of the biggest, and they have done a deal with Twitch and Maker Studios have done a deal to create exclusive content that is only available on Twitch. That's coming at some point in the future. They have also created a new set of tools to help people promote content and schedule reruns of streams, which is interesting

because in a rerun, the way that they're doing it, the stream can keep going and people can chat as if it's live. It's very interesting. So what Amazon is doing is making Twitch better and better and better over time. And they're trying to chip off some of YouTube. And it has been interesting because this is happening at the exact same time that a lot of content creators are really upset at YouTube because YouTube is doing a bunch of stuff, which is really annoying people. And I'm starting to see more and more people get more and more involved in Twitch. So it's interesting to see these moves happening because youtube is a behemoth in video and the idea that something will ever come like will come along and take it down is like my similar thoughts

to facebook which is that facebook is so big i don't know how anything can knock it off like it's big to the point where nothing's been big before and I feel like YouTube is similar so I'm keen to see what happens here like how much of a dent can Twitch really make honestly I don't think it will be that big but I'm keen to see them try

alright and James asks Jason do you think we're ever going to see the promised messages in cloud feature in an iOS 11 release or do you think we're ever going to see the promised messages in cloud feature in an iOS 11 release or do you think it will be iOS 12 if ever I would like

to believe that Apple is still trying to make an effort to get it in iOS 11 but at some point here you know that they are going to just say well look we're going to be working on our developer release of iOS 12 for June, so

we're out of here. There has to be a cutoff where the feature just moves into the next big release, right? We don't know when that is, but there has to be one. Yeah, exactly. So, although I don't know, my gut feeling is that this is all server based stuff,

that the real issue here is how you get this to all. Well, it's not all server based, but like the server is a huge part of it, too. You got the clients, the clients need to send and receive and sync up. I don't know where the problem is. And I've seen lots of speculation about what some of the issues might be. I really hope that it will be part of this cycle and not fall, but it's getting there. So I don't know. That would be a black eye. I feel like Apple would really rather roll it out at some point in a dot release rather than having to kind of take their lumps and say, hey, remember that feature? This time for sure which they might do but uh i think they would rather not all right if you would like to send in a question for a later episode to have us answer

during the show just send a tweet with the hashtag ask upgrade and they collect up into a sheet for me to delve through and pick out some for us to answer thank you to everybody who sent questions in this week so we're gonna take a final break for the show. When we come back, we're going to talk about the musical Hamilton, which I'm very excited to discuss with Jason. Today's show is also brought to you by Anchor, the fastest and easiest way for anyone to make a podcast. If you have a thing you want to say, a moment you want to share,

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And the more and more I play with the Anchor app, the more impressed I am. The technology is great. I love been kind of going through every few days and answering some questions and the more and more I play with the anchor app the more impressed I am the technology is great I love the use of emoji the editing tools are really simple to use it is a very very impressive app so if you want to find out more go to anchor.fm that's a-n-c-h-o-r.f-m slash Mike Hurley and leave me a call into my station leave me a message I'm doing a great AMA there I've had some great questions I've got some more that I'm going a great AMA there. I've had some great questions. I've got some more that I'm going to answer this week. I'll play back the best ones and give my answers. So anchor.fm slash Mike Hurley.

Check it out. Leave me a question. Our thanks to Anchor for their support of this show. So Hamilton. Now, obviously, I have been aware of Hamilton for probably like coming up on two years. Right. I think that's the point where basically everybody knew about it. Right.

About like 18 months, two years ago. And I was aware of it. I knew that people enjoyed it. And then I was like, maybe I should check this out. So I downloaded the soundtrack and I didn't listen to it for whatever reason. downloaded the soundtrack and I didn't listen to it for whatever reason. Then I heard it was coming to London, like probably 18 months ago, maybe longer, probably a bit longer than that. It was the news day it was going to come to London. So I figured, well, I know how big a thing this is. I guess I will keep an eye out for tickets and I'll sign up for the mailing list. And then about 18

months ago, I listened to some of the music and I listened to a handful of songs twice, just like the first five or six songs. Then I decided that I would never listen to another second of the Hamilton soundtrack until I could see it. Because I knew it was good, right? I was listening to it and I was like, oh, this sounds really good. But I don't know the story. I don't know the context. I can't see anything. I want to wait. And then one year and two weeks ago, the tickets went on sale for the London showing of Hamilton.

And I bought my ticket. And last Wednesday, we went to see it. And I have thought about nothing else since, I think. I have thought about nothing else since, I think. There are very few things that you will experience in your life that are hyped beyond belief that can actually live up to it. Hamilton exceeds that for me. I pretty much immediately knew I was going to love it. It started and it just felt good. And I was like, this was going to love it. Like it started and it just felt good.

And I was like, this is going to be fun. But I didn't know by the end just how much I was going to love it. I mean, you know, one of the interesting things is I don't know a lot of this history. I especially know nothing about Hamilton. I just don't know a ton about the American Revolution in general. And I didn't know anything ton about the american revolution in general and i didn't know anything about hamilton basically nobody did right like and that's one of the fun things about this is no one really knew his story even though he was on the ten dollar bill uh and that's one of the things that's made the show so fun is that people got to learn some history um i want to talk about king george real quick because this is this is an interesting

thing right so this whole show is focused around the revolution right america breaking away from the rule of like it's no longer a colony right breaking out of the british empire right so i'm one of the the big characters who has a bunch of just solo songs like i don't know the term anyway uh is king george and the moment king george stepped onto the stage everyone in the theater just lost it it was hilarious the guy playing him was fantastic the costume is wonderful and it highlighted to me a funny thing about the i think maybe part maybe the difference between americans and british people because like i saw a clip of lin-manuel miranda the creator the the wonderful creator and writer and composer of hamilton about the opening night of the London show.

And he was nervous about how British people would react to King George. And also in the same vein, I've had a bunch of American friends ask me about, like, oh, how are British people going to react to Hamilton? Like, it's all about the American Revolution. But there are two things here. One, British people love self-deprecating humor. That is our thing. We take great joy in making fun of ourselves. So King George being portrayed the way he is is just wonderful.

Full of regret and hate and and he's so upset that anyone would think to leave him and he's in this wonderful like gown and crown and all that kind of stuff it's just hilarious to us because it's making fun of us right but we kind of go along with that and the other thing is and and i don't mean this disrespectfully but british people do not care about the American Revolution today. Like, no one thinks about it. We don't, like, British people don't feel like we lost America, right? Like, this isn't a thing.

We don't think about it. It's, like, so far in our history. And it was an entire empire that we lost. It wasn't just America. It was, like, most of the world and like i think that it is more prevalent in american history because you have independence day and like at some point you have to learn about why you celebrate independence day we don't have like goodbye america day right like i i never learned you should maybe we should you do fireworks and

everything the jet skis the american revolution probably for for you know reasons is not taught in school like i don't ever think about it like i am not bitter and upset and mad about the fact that the america is no longer a part of our empire so like it's just funny to me it was just funny to me to for people to give those reactions of like oh we're so how me it was just funny to me to for people to give those reactions of like oh we're so how is it going to be reacted like how are people gonna like we love it i mean and also we love america right like britain has a love affair with america and this is just more america for us like and but it's just funny like watching it it's like i don't even

even when i'm watching this unfold i I'm not even thinking about Britain. Right. Because it's like a different, it was a different age for us. Like, it's a different thing. That Britain is not this Britain. Right. Like that. Yeah, that America is not this America either. Exactly.

That's, yeah. But there is like, I think more of a, well, there is more of, there is a celebration in America for it, which we obviously don't have. And we understand the mythology. America for it, which we all certainly don't have. And we understand the mythology, like American school children are given, you know, this, the mythology of the, the American revolution and the founding of the, of the United States. Right. So we have these figures, these famed figures of which Alexander Hamilton has generally been considered a minor player, but yes, your George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, like there are, there are the big names. Um, has generally been considered a minor player but yes you're george washington thomas jefferson

benjamin franklin like there are there are the big names um and and as an american growing up you know all of that so then you see this and there's that additional resonance of like knowing the the legend of george washington and and thomas yeahfferson and seeing them on stage the the introductions of uh jefferson and washington in the the musical are these huge moments right like the way they introduce washington is like you've been waiting for him here he is but like that doesn't hit with us yeah like i wasn't waiting for him i love it i didn't even think about him right like i don't really know a lot of the history so like from i think for our audience king george coming out onto the stage is way more of a fun

moment because it's like this weird mirror being turned on us because we are in the victoria palace theater watching yes right and well and he's he's singing it in a in a very kind of brit poppy style right that's the choice that went when i'm random made for those songs yeah when i hear his Well, and he's singing it in a very kind of Brit poppy style, right? It's so wonderful. That's the choice that Lin-Manuel Miranda made for those songs. When I hear his songs, I think of Elton John. Yes, I agree. I hear a lot of people who say that it's sort of like Beatles-esque,

and I'm like, no, Elton John. It's Elton John completely. Because it's all piano as well. And also, by the way, currently, what is the name of his first the first song you'll be back that is currently my favorite song i love it so much because it's it it fills me with so much joy uh and like i i will say i i prefer the the the way that the british actor sings it because i can hear the american in the broadway recording it, because I can hear the American in the Broadway recording. Ah,

right. Like I can hear it. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's very good. His accent is very good. Like some of the, the way that he pronounces the words,

but just like the hearing it sung, hearing a British person put on a fake British accent just is more fun for me. So like, but that this, so but like you know all of the introductions of the big people in the play they don't really hit in the same way it's very interesting i think it's it's it there is this weird mix i expect of how it's uh represent like how it's uh accepted in the different audiences and like the funny thing for me is i didn't know what the end was like i know he says i know like burr at the beginning says that oh i'm the fool who shot him but i don't know if that means he dies or not like i didn't know until the end yeah it's uh i was going to say the only two things that

americans knew about alexander hamilton mostly were that he was on the $10 bill. Maybe they knew that. Maybe. And there was an ad for the milk producers, part of their award-winning Got Milk campaign. a guy sitting in a room full of Alexander Hamilton, Aaron Burr, and dual memorabilia, including like the pistol. And he's listening to the radio while eating like a peanut butter sandwich. And the radio says, we're going to give a big prize to the first caller who can tell us who shot Alexander Hamilton

in that famous duel. And he calls in and they say, what's your answer? And he goes, because his mouth is full of peanut butter. And then you cut to, got milk? Right.

Wow. Very funny ad, famous ad, well-known. And honestly, kind of like that's how people knew who Alexander Hamilton was for a very long time,

but not anymore. Not anymore. So, yes. So a lot of American audiences go in there knowing that this is the most famous thing about Alexander Hamilton, which is really unfair when you get to dig into what exactly. I mean, he kind of shaped how American government ended up working out. Shaped the world. Because the things that he did other countries adopted right like oh yeah no it's true but he was so disliked by so many of the people who were his

contemporaries who did end up in power he was that that he did he did not get the credit that he probably deserved um that is not to say that he is oh actually the towering figure behind the american revolution but a hugely influential person who ended up not being very well known other than this real odd thing about how he was a founding father who didn't kind of go on like so many of the rest to be president or to be prominent in politics because he died young-ish. And also just the novelty of the fact that the sitting vice president of the United States shot him in a duel. That's crazy but anyway so yeah it's uh it's uh it's cool to think that you were like was he gonna die here yeah i had no idea i had no idea yes he is gonna die here but let me say it stops the bullet is hanging and hanging in uh in that moment and uh he considers his life yeah again so it's like i'm so happy. I didn't listen to the music because I wouldn't have understood the gravity of

some of these situations. Right. Like I would have learned the songs without seeing the context. And I'm so pleased that I got it with the context because the final two songs, like I am in tears. Right. Oh yeah. In the theater.

Oh yeah. Now, and I would not have got that, I don't think, if I would have known the music, because I wouldn't have experienced it, in my opinion. Like, for me, I wouldn't have experienced it in the same way. Like, this was when I was learning about this. Like, I didn't know this was going to happen.

And, like, the final song, where Eliza... Ohiza oh my god i so we have listened even if you harden your heart and you can get through the rest of it the moment that they talk about the orphanage you're gone yeah that was it the orphanage was when i turned over at the point from like tears in eyes to tears rolling down face it was the orphanage uh yeah like so we have been listening to this soundtrack constantly for the last five days i have not and cannot listen to who lives who dies who tells your story i can't do it i need i have listened more time i've listened to act one an awful lot i've listened to act two a much smaller number of times because it is quite a ride and while it's very good it's also very

painful i once i was driving to the airport to pick up my mom and made the mistake of playing hamilton and i was sitting on the 880 freeway in oakland like 20 minutes 10 minutes from the airport and we got to the end of act two and i was like god god yeah and i was just like tears streaming down i'm like what am i doing because you've seen you've seen the traveling production so my so my my method here was that i listened to an awful lot and then after whatever a year or or so of listening to it knowing that we were going to see it in uh 2017 i kind of stopped listening to it. So by the time we went and saw it in April or something, I hadn't really listened to it in three or four months. So I, cause I wanted,

I wanted to create a little bit of a gap so that I could come in and have it be, not that I wouldn't know the songs by heart, but that I wouldn't have heard them for a while. And it would be kind of like, I'd be getting that experience of like, now here it is, I'm getting to see it instead of, if that makes any sense, instead of like literally listening to it on the way in before the show, like I wanted to create a sort of special space there. Um, and so, yeah, and then we saw it and, and the, you know, the same thing. It was the, the, it was an incredibly, we brought our kids. Um, it was an incredibly emotional experience. It was amazing. It was the best theater experience I've ever had. And I've been to theater. I'm not a diehard theater goer, but I've seen a lot of theater over the years. And this beat out. My favorite previously was something I'd seen in Ashland, Oregon, like 30 years before. So it beat that out. And then we managed, Lauren and I managed to go a second time right before it left town.

And that was great. And it was really different because I was able to survey it a little less emotionally than the first time because it was no longer just about the story and about finally the end of this journey of now I get to see this thing. And I'd seen it once before. So I was able to pay attention to kind of some of the stuff that maybe I missed in the moment. And that was pretty great too.

I don't bring that up a lot because there's nothing worse than being the person who says, you know, the second time you see Hamilton is different because people are like, shut up. Like, I don't want to hear about the second time you see Hamilton, but we did sneak it in there. We were lucky to do that. So, and we'll, when it comes back here I will try to go see it again because it was great

one of the reasons that I was in tears was because I was dumbfounded that one person could do this like I cannot fathom how one person could

create and write all of this wonderful music and tell this story completely through song it's like a masterpiece and i cannot fathom how one man did it i just can't it is uh you know as a creative thing it is amazing i mean he obviously has a great support system and he's got his arranger alex lacamoire. And whoever did the choreography, the choreography is amazing too. My wife and daughter who are dancers, at least, you know, they take dance classes and stuff like that. We're especially amazed by the choreography in the show but yeah in the end lin-manuel miranda boy that's a really talented guy i love that i love seeing somebody so amazingly talented um and being able to kind of will something like this into existence because it's such a huge project and he and it's and it's something that took him you know years to put together and it and and the thing that amazes me is if you just listen to the cast recording, there are so many good songs in this show.

It's kind of mind-blowing. Like, you mentioned how You'll Be Back is your favorite. I have had, like, ten different favorite songs in Hamilton. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, when I finished the show the room where it happens was my favorite because i love that one so much because also like so good the thought of that song like what is going into that song is so tantalizingly interesting and so many different styles too right that like he's telling a story he's bringing in history and the

songs are in different styles whether it's Elton John or a, uh, rumors happens as, you know, uh, a very different thing stylistically than something like helpless or satisfied. Like it's all over the place.

And we found a, a documentary, um, which was on PBS on YouTube. Yeah, sure. Um, which it's difficult to find. It called hamilton's america like it

keeps getting taken down and we watched a low quality version of it uh but there was there was a guy who was he was talking on it i mean one person can like compared him to shakespeare lima and what which is like i can totally understand that uh and another person was saying that like i think this was the guy who wrote the book that Lin-Manuel Miranda based a lot of the... We square a lot of history from. That's it. And he said, like, people are paying attention to this because the rap and hip hop is novelty on the stage, on the Broadway stage and now the West End stage. But there are all styles of music represented here including just traditional show tunes but

like people are saying oh it's the hip-hop musical because typically that it's not featured in huge musicals so and it's got it's got it's making some very specific hip-hop references at various points that would only be appreciated by people who are deep into hip-hop and and the history of rap and things like that that i've read about now wow i had no idea that's fantastic right there's so there's so amazing stuff in there i would be remiss if i didn't at least mention one of the things that's happening here too is that beyond the music beyond the text beyond the choreography the casting is intentionally part of the story of this, that the story of America and so much history

is about white men. And so Hamilton is cast with people of color in all the major parts, except for the king. It's the same in London too, by the way. Yeah, and that's and that is that is part of the story of hamilton is it's talking about immigrants in the early days of the united states everybody was an immigrant alexander hamilton like lin-manuel miranda whose father immigrated from puerto rico uh or parents immigrated from i don't know if they

both came together anyway um alexander hamilton was from a poor uh Caribbean island and although he was Scottish in his background he was poor and his mother died and all those things that happened in the beginning and he ends up sort of getting sent to America because he's so brilliant that they they take up a collection to send him to America because he deserves a decent education and it is an immigrant story. And so Miranda is taking that and saying, you know, in this era where immigration is this argued about thing, it's worth remembering that America is a nation of immigrants founded by immigrants. And here's a poor immigrant from the Caribbean who has looked down on and insulted for where he came from by a lot of well-known people and the impact he made.

And one of the ways that the show does that is by having it not just be a parade of white guys playing those parts and in fact saying, no, we're going to have it all be people of color instead. And that's part of the politics of Hamilton. And it's not in the script and other than you know i mean there are parts where like immigrants we get the job done so that is an applause line in the united states at least i will tell you they stop because it cheer the cheer is too long and they have to they have to stop at that point for the cheers

in san francisco let me tell you that was a big applause line anyway it's great it's great i mean that's the other thing that came out of it when i saw it i was flashing back to that when you you were uh posting that you had just gotten out of it is is that was the thing that i told people afterwards like hey guess what hamilton's really good like i mean like it's the stupidest thing to say but then you see it and you're like, yeah, mm-hmm, yeah. It lives up to the hype, I would say. I need you to know that I know it's good. That's why we're doing this right now is I need you all to know that this is amazing. Our year-end incomparable episode, that was one of the things I mentioned,

is like we were talking about things we liked in 2017, and I said, you know, I have to say it. I saw Hamilton a couple of times in 2017. Turns out, did you know Hamilton's pretty good? Yeah, it is. It is pretty good. It is so interesting to me that something could be made which is this good like it's it's we it's this like the we make things right like we try and be creative and make things and the thought that somebody

could make something that everybody just loves is like such an interesting thing it's like how do you do that like how it's it's why i'm one of the reasons that i am so wrapped up in this right now is just not just because it's incredible it is why is it incredible like that's that's why i'm like i will never come to an answer but like what makes it so good we yeah so we're just we're just obsessed we bought the vinyl i know that will drive you bonkers but we bought the vinyl and so we now have the four disc vinyl set because i want a thing right like we listen to an album music but i want a thing and we took the program that we bought and we put it inside the box right now we have that and we're gonna go again because this is

gonna be in london probably for like 20 years now i expect like it will be in London probably for like 20 years now, I expect. It will be in the West End. Like, you know, the Book of Mormon just celebrated its 10th year in the West End, right? Like, this will be here forever, but we are going to go as soon as we can. So it's sold out until the end of July. There are no more tickets available past July, so I think they're going to do it in blocks, right? They just released blocks because it's not going to go away in July. But we have the lottery system here too, and whenever we have a free evening, we'll enter the lottery for that evening. I will see this show again, and I'll probably see it again after that, and we'll just keep trying to see it because I need to keep

consuming it because I love it so much. So it wonderful just wonderful so that's hamilton if you have the opportunity to see hamilton see it and also if you've never listened to it don't if you're going to see it don't that is my advice like if you have the ability to get a ticket to it and you get one and you haven't yet listened i would say just don't like just experience it because the music will be there afterwards it's uh if you've waited this long and haven't listened to it then just yes go see it then don't spoil yourself like you yeah you've already given yourself like two and a half years without listening to it just give yourself another six months right i know i know you know the hype can be like make people roll their eyes. Like, oh boy, I'm tired of hearing about it. It's really good.

That's, I mean, that's the bottom line is it's a really great show and you don't have to, you don't have to join the fan club and you don't have to create fan art and you don't have to watch all the videos on YouTube. You could just go to the theater and see it. And it's an amazing theatrical experience that is, it's rich. The lyrics and music are fantastic. The story is great. And you won't feel like you're getting a history lesson, even though it is about things that really happened, more or less. I wanted to plug one thing.

If you do like Hamilton and you didn't know about it already, people should check out the podcast we did at The Incomparable in 2016. We did a podcast called Pod for Ham. It's all there. The whole thing is there. You can subscribe and listen to it at your leisure. in 2016 we did a podcast called pod for ham it's all there the whole thing is there you can

subscribe and listen to it at your leisure and it is an episode about every single song it is a completed project which is yes doesn't happen a lot i'm done that was my 2016 i produced a basically 50 episode podcast about hamilton are you over on weekly i am not i'm only on like five but i edited all of them and i i assigned all the panels so it was a lot of work even though my voice is only well my voice is on every episode because i introduce it but uh i'm only a participant in like five or six of them i wished it was still going i could throw my my opinion in but i've got it here now but my gosh what a show oh i'm tearing up again thinking about it it hit me man i couldn't talk i'm glad you liked it i was speechless great like edina was trying to talk to me about it and i would start talking

i start crying again she's like clearly we can't talk about this right now. Yeah, wonderful. All right. Thanks for listening to this week's episode. You can find our show notes at relay.fm slash upgrade slash 177. Thanks again to our sponsors, Anchor, FreshBooks, and SaneBox. As always, you can be involved in the show. You can tweet to us.

You can send us emails, but you can send in questions with hashtags, no talk, and hashtag ask upgrade. And if you have any cool stories that you want to be included in a future Upstream segment, you can send them to me and I will include those. Jason Snell can be found at TheIncomparable.com, SixColors.com and on many shows at RelayFM.

If you only listen to this show, pick another, Relay.FM slash shows. There's a bunch of shows with me on, a bunch of shows with Jason on. They're all great and we have many, many more for you to choose from. Jason is at jsnell on Twitter. I am at imyke, I-M-Y-K-E, and we'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snell.

President John Adams, good luck. I wondered what line you were going to pick. I was trying hurriedly to come up with something, and that's what I got for you. Good luck!