Upgrade - 204: Tap-to-Click Truther

Episode Date: July 30, 2018

Myke's back from his honeymoon, and the Summer of Fun continues as we discuss our dream iOS devices, YouTube's attempt to get into premium streaming, Adobe bringing Photoshop to the iPad, and the MacBook Pro performance scandal that turned out to be a minor bug.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 204 today's show is brought to you by text expander pingdom and green chef my name is mike hurley and i am joined by jason snow welcome back mike hurley yes although you were here last week yes Yes. Through the miracle of recording technology. Yeah, I guess for, you know, people were saying to me after the last week's episode, oh, it's great to hear you back again. Even though for Upgrade listeners, I was only gone for one episode, which is kind of funny. But I have been gone from everything else. Basically, all of my other shows since the beginning of July, I popped in for that one

episode of Upgrade on July 10th, which now feels like a dream to me, like I'm not actually sure it ever really happened, because I was in a little bit of a wording whirlwind. And I just, a couple of days ago, got back from my honeymoon in Hawaii, and I'm feeling good. I'm happy to be here. But right now, nobody cares about that, Jason Snell, because it's time for our hashtag snell talk question today's question comes from tom and tom wants to know mac os trackpad scroll direction natural do you use tap to click we want to know about your trackpad habits here jason oh boy oh are you gonna out yourself as like a non-natural scrolling person or something?

Well, I'm trying to remember. So which one is natural? The one they changed it to or they changed it from? Natural is like the iPhone. So it's what they changed it to. I think that was why they called it natural because it's like all the touchscreen devices, right? There's nothing more natural than an iPhone. You can go to Whole Foods and get like an organic natural iPhone.

Yeah, natural grown from Tr to joe's or something yeah yeah exactly right uh turn to joe's good reference there it sounds like somebody's been in california um the answer is uh yes natural i i adopted very quickly to natural in fact i was using a laptop the other day god who was it and i was appalled because it went the wrong direction i was like what is happening i push my finger up and the mouse goes down no no no so i i adopted the uh i adopted natural scrolling very quickly and would never go back um and uh yeah and in terms of tap to click because he else tom also asked do I do tap to click? No, absolutely not.

I'm an absolutist. I do not tap to click. I click to click. I don't know if you can say you're an absolutist. I think an absolutist wouldn't use natural scrolling. No, I'm a natural scroller, but I'm a tap to click absolutist. I'm not a tap to click wizard. I'm a tap to click,ist. I'm not a tap to click wizard. I'm a tap to click. That's a reference absolutist. Um, I, I it's too, um, too many false clicks when you do that. Like I, I, for whatever reason, apparently my finger, you know, comes up and down on the little trackpad

surface or whatever enough. And I use a magic trackpad at my, at my desk. So I'm using trackpad all the time. I used to use a trackball back in the day for a very long time. And then when the Magic Trackpad came out, I realized that it had benefits. I'd gotten used to the trackpad on laptops to the point where, like, and the gestures are very similar on a trackpad and a trackball, right? That's the idea. They're very similar. And that was enough to get me over. And so now I've been on a trackpad ever since.

And to this day, I'm using a magic trackpad right now. I'm a natural scroller and a tap to clicker, but I use, I use both methods of clicking. Sometimes I tap and sometimes I give it a force press because there's no actual clicking happening anymore, you know?

Sure. So, you know, if you think about it, Jason, we're all tap to clicking. If you really think about it, you know, if you think about it, Jason, we're all tap to clicking. If you really think about it. No, no.

Nothing's moving anymore. So we're all, you know. The little vibrating thing moves when you put pressure on it. No, but nothing's going down. But if you just lay your finger on it. Nothing's going down. There's no actual click happening. You're just, you're a push to click person now.

Are you a tap to click truther? Is that what you are now? Are you spreading the disinformation? That's what you should be called. When you think about it, man man we are all tap to click wizards now wow you really think about it no yeah i've been on i've been on a vision quest i denied three weeks and i've come back to talk about the good news of push to click i do have a silent clicking turned on by the way because i do podcasts and the last thing i need is for my magic trackpad to uh make an artificial that's exactly why you should be tapping because then you know no noise anyway but i can't but i can't because i missed i missed tap and i misclick when i use tap to click i

the way my hand rests on the trackpad i can't use tap to click it gets too many mistaken taps i feel like i'm turning into john syracuse before your eyes here other than the fact that i'm doing natural scrolling i don't think he does natural scrolling. No, he doesn't. I think him and Marco spoke about this on an episode of ATP recently. And if I'm remembering correctly, I apologize for any slander, they use the old scrolling method.

Like unnatural scrolling. I can't understand. I just don't understand how somebody could use an iOS device and then use scrolling in that way. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I know. And I know, I totally understand the idea that, oh, I've been doing this could use an iOS device and then use scrolling in that way. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I know.

And I know, I totally understand the idea that, oh, I've been doing this for years and years on laptops. I get it. But I really feel like the iOS device has completely broke that for me. I like the passive aggressive nature of the trackpad control panel, system preferences pane, where it is very specifically referred to

as natural scrolling. And so in order to scroll the other way, you have to say, opt me out of what nature intended. I want to be unnatural. I want to do it the wrong way. Give me that unnatural way. I really enjoy that, that Apple was like, you could do the right way

or you can uncheck this box. It's your choice. And do it the wrong way. At least they give you the choice. But they're not going to – before you can uncheck that box, they've got to remind you, you're doing it wrong. I love it. Love it. All right.

So thank you. We've outraged everyone. I'm terrified. Welcome back. Summer of fun. I'm terrified for the response to this Snell Talk question. Tom, I guess thank you for what you've done uh in recommending this this topic if you would like to have us start the show

in in either an outrageous or an outrageous fashion you can send a tweet with the hashtag snell talk um and we'll pick one up for a future episode you gave the call the summer of fun signal we are still in the Summer of Fun! Because I wasn't going to miss it all. Summer of Fun! I wasn't going to miss it all. They're still fun. We're still in the fun.

You were having fun without Upgrade there for a while. I was listening to the show, though. It took me a very long time to listen to them. Maybe about... I think it took me a week to listen to the episode that you did with Stephen, which I enjoyed greatly. We do have a little bit of follow-up on that in a moment. Actually, we may as well do that now.

My understanding is people were outraged at the both of you for not picking OS X Tiger in your OS X draft. Yeah, that was the one I got more than any other comment about that was, I can't believe, and by the way, every time you do a draft of anything, or a list of anything in a podcast, the first response you get is, I can't believe you didn't mention. And I kind of did the OS X draft thinking, I want to see what happens. And sure enough, people are like, I can't believe you didn't pick Tiger. Tiger was the one that kept coming up. I just can't believe it.

How could you pick six versions of OS X out of 13 and not pick Tiger? I'm going to decide right now to make the Upgradians out there very happy. Because if I would have been on that episode, it would have been my number one draft pick. Because Tiger was my first version of OS X. Because I bought the Intel iMac. That was my first Mac. And that shipped to Tiger. So I would have picked Tiger.

Okay, well, I guess you get it then. Yeah, that's my draft pick. You get a supplemental pick. Nobody should even ask now. No, because I just picked it. It's done. It's fine. I get the one pick.

The one pick. So more summer of fun i had a great time in hawaii but i was also in san francisco on either side of the trip because it is almost sadistic to try and get to hawaii directly from london because it's something like 20 23 hours including a layover but you're also going going 11 hours behind in time zones. So we decided that we would probably end up wasting the first two days of our trip if we did that, which we were not keen to do. So we flew to San Francisco and then from San Francisco took the six hour flight out to Hawaii. But we spent a couple of days in San Francisco on either side. And one of them was

me and Adina traveled to the Snell Zone, and we spent some time with the Snell family. You showed me a couple of things. One was HomePod stereo, which I was very impressed with, because I hadn't heard a stereo-paired HomePod, and I liked that very much. And also your Sonos working

with AirPlay 2, so I was very impressed with all of that. And I did have that moment where I was like, hmm, shall I get a second HomePod? And then realized, no, no,

I will not get a second HomePod because even though it does sound, I know people said this and you said this, I heard so many people say, oh, it's so much better in stereo.

I'm like, oh, really? How much better can it actually be? A lot better. It sounds a lot better. We listened to some Arctic Monkeys

songs and stuff and it, they, I was really surprised. It honestly sounded like I was wearing headphones. Like, I was very surprised with the stereo kind of separation that they're doing with the HomePods. But yeah, but then I realized very quickly that I seldom listen to music on the HomePod anyway, just because we don't really have music on in the house when we're doing things. If we're doing things, you know, like we're cleaning up or whatever, where there's no other media playing, me and Adina will listen to podcasts typically.

So it is very rare that we kind of just have music on like that, which is why I wouldn't get one. But if I was a person who liked the HomePod and enjoyed music and having it sound good and listening to it all the time, I would totally want to invest in the second one it's expensive yeah the difference is stellar yeah it makes it makes a huge difference and uh helps fill the room and i have a sonos play 5 right like you mentioned and but it's like boombox shape and so it's not really doing serious separation and you've got to have a huge space to lay that thing down on and with the

two home pods in my living room you know i've got one on my end table and one on my piano and so they're kind of bracketing the room and they fill it and it's one of those things where i've got you know like i have a sonos um i forget what it's called but it's the one that you attach to an amplifier and run it through regular speakers okay it's not the amp but it's before they gave them the play names right yeah it's an older one and it doesn't get airplay or anything like that it's just there but um but it was it was one of those things where i was like well i i had a squeeze box and that was you attach it to your stereo and then it plays the music through your your stereo on your stereo speakers

and you've got yay digital music on on your stereo What, what could be better? Um, except I realize now that, um, the, I wouldn't need it. Like it's, it's a, uh, the connect is the name of it. Um, and it, uh, like I can't remember the last time I played music through that, through my speaker. So my speakers are all for like home theater for the TV and we're getting a new TV, which is that's for next week. We'll follow up next week about that. But I, as a part of that, I disconnected my whole sort of home theater system and I'm going to reconnect it when the new TV gets here. And I was listening to a TV through my TV speakers for the first time. And it was that moment of truth of like, I spent all this money

and time doing this. It's going to be really embarrassing if this TV sounds great. Spoiler alert, it sounds terrible. I was like, yeah, TV speakers sound terrible. All right, I win. But for the music side of it, at this point, I just don't use those speakers, even though they sound great because the HomePod sounds great too. So it would have changed my priorities in that way. It's still, yeah, it's still really expensive. And I don't think I would recommend that everybody rush out and buy two HomePods just to get it because that's a lot of money.

I'm hopeful that maybe Apple will realize that some of the resistance to the HomePod is the pricing and that i'm not sure they should i mean it would be nice if they cut the home pod price a little bit but what i really think they should do to get these things to sell well at the holidays is uh sell a two pack like sell sell them yep for a discount 600 if you buy two yeah because that that would be a really nice and the flexibility of like i said of having them in different places in a room and stereo pairing them. And then, yeah, also speaking of home theater, if you are an Apple TV person, if you're a cord cutter with an Apple TV, you can just make them your speakers. And that works. I did that yesterday too. And all of a

sudden the audio is just coming out of my AirPods. And the lag is okay? My AirPods, my HomePods. Yeah, there's no lag. it's airplay 2 and it's synced with a video and it's perfect it's amazing even third-party apps like youtube and stuff i mean oh man yeah because it's all just going through the system so that that's an interesting thing where you can kind of give yourself if if everything is going through the apple tv that's the catch and for mine it isn't i have a bunch of other stuff too but But if everything's just going through the Apple TV, it will also work that way using AirPlay 2. It'll just play straight to them.

Okay. Okay. Well, that's great. That's really good. So headline is HomePod more interesting than previously thought. Yeah. Well, I mean, isn't that the story of the device

since it came out, right? It feels like it's never where it needs to be. It just just continues to get more interesting over time and then hopefully at least they're making it more interesting that's true they haven't just left it so yeah i had a great great great trip um i've had a lot of help from people while i was away so thank you to everyone who's helped especially steven who helped out a bunch he was even on upgrade for the very first time as just just the host, right? He's been on as a guest in the past, but yeah. I'm going to address the sheer imbalance

of Macintosh discussion later on in the episode. And also a huge thank you to Federico Vittici and Serenity Caldwell for their iPad episode. And in case you haven't, that episode was recorded in advance. And in case you've missed it, Serenity has actually got a job at Apple now. So congratulations to Ren. And I guess if you enjoy Ren on Tech Podcasts, treasure that iPad episode.

Because I'm pretty sure she will be on some incomparable shows. I would like to hope so. But I don't expect we're going to hear her on any technology shows for the time being. Yeah, there are a bunch of Apple employees, actually, who have appeared on incomparable podcasts over the years. And it's like, well, we don't talk about them being Apple employees, but they're completely outside of the technology realm. It's not disallowed. And so if they're talking about a TV show or they're playing Dungeons and Dragons or something like that, it's not disallowed. And so if they're talking about a TV show or they're playing Dungeons and Dragons or something like that, it's okay. And so I would

anticipate that schedule permitting, which is because she's a very busy person and she will continue to be at Apple and she's got so many other interests that we'll get her on the incomparable and total party kill. We already have some plans afoot there. But on the tech side, yeah, in terms of external tech podcasting, that may be a door that is closed until perhaps one day in the future. If she ever were to leave Apple, then she would kind of reemerge. Maybe. She's on the inside now. She could get the approval at some point to make a special guest appearance. You never know.

Wouldn't that be nice? That would be great. I would love that. I look forward to that so i miss it already oh i actually have another piece of follow-up you mentioned federico and the sequence if you listen to everything sequentially you may have thought um that i was on canvas with federico last week which we didn't mention when we did the big ipad special because we recorded that a month in advance uh but if you missed it i was off on canvas with federico and

it's mostly federico i i'm in there every now and then reading an ad and commenting on something and i got to talk to him a little bit but it's fun we got to talk about the ipad a lot on canvas last week because fraser wasn't on that episode and um so we got to spend time talking about ipad keyboards and all sorts of other stuff ios 12 and shortcuts shortcuts as well, right? It was a big... Yeah, yeah, we did a lot of that. Yeah, I think it was primarily Siri shortcuts, which I've been using a lot and have done a lot of big things with.

Oh, we're going to have to check in on some of that soon, I think. I haven't had the full amount of time to play with it as I would want to, but I keep digging into it. I keep poking around. Yeah. But this does lead us to a little bit of follow-up

in regards to the iPad episode. I do not recall, I didn't write down who sent this in, so I apologize. But we got sent a link to a couple of different tablet stands, like iPad stands, and there was one of them that seemed interesting to me. It's called the Tabitha. It's made by a company called Colbrook Boston Saunders,

who I have no idea who they are, but I poked around their website, and it looks like they mostly create stands and arms for monitors for big companies. It looks like what they do. You go to them, and you buy like 40 monitor arms to get installed into your new office. But they make this freestanding tablet mount, which looked really interesting to me.

There's not as much information on the website as I would like, but it does say it has three adjustable lockable arms, and it looks like it can extend to higher than the stand that we're currently using. What is the name of that thing again? Oh. The Jason snell method stand it doesn't have a good name is the problem um it is the uh viozon ipad pro stand the viozon stand so um i i basically i'm telling you this because i'm going to report back because i have purchased one of these because it does look like what i want out of a stand the thing i'm not sure about is how weighted the foot is because that's important to have some weight so you can tap the screen especially if it's tall yes so this is what i'm keen to find out so i have gone ahead and

purchased one of these it wasn't that much it was like 60 pounds so it wasn't like an incredible investment um and obviously i'm free to return if it doesn't fit the bill but i'm looking at it and i have my fingers crossed that this is going to be the kind of thing that i was looking for um but where we will see yeah i have some uh i i looked at that one and i was skeptical because it it i'm concerned yeah that the base isn't weighty enough and it's gonna tip and it really does when you're reaching up and touching the screen you need some level of stability especially on the 12.9 um and uh a listener logan sent in a different one which is is from AboveTech, which there's like a tablet holder and then you get the 12.9.

You have to buy like a larger bracket to pop it on. But it's also fairly cheap. I think it's less than 50 bucks. Yeah, I looked at that one. It doesn't seem to solve my problem, which is height. It looks like, if anything, actually is even smaller than the uh the of the fires on yeah and this is the this is the issue is if you want height you now are dealing with the physics of having the base be stable um also um a listener uh martina wrote in about how like ergatron uh which is a company that I've used their stands before. They make, they apparently

make an iPad, you know, clamping arm thing, you know, that you clamp it on a desk. And then I mentioned that in passing last week. And they do, there are some out there, these kind of things, if you want to permanently attach kind of an arm to a desk and then pop an iPad into it. Some of them, they require like a custom case on your iPad. And then you put that in, which I don't like. Um, but if it's something that's got a clamp, so there are some out there like that for my use,

I'm not at the point where I want to permanently affix an arm on my desk for an iPad. Um, maybe the time will come, but I'm not there yet, but I'm having a stand. I would let me know how that other one goes because the, the,

I like, I really like the Vizon stand because it is well-made and it's got the clamp. So it works with different sized iPads. But it is a little bit short. And I know why it's short, right? Because the higher it gets, the harder it is to keep that thing stable. So let me know. Report back.

Yeah, the Alcatron, Marco recommended that to me because he knows their products are good. They are good. But the thing is is i use this all over the house right like exactly right i'm not i don't want to just to fix it to some single place i want to be able exactly kind of move it around a bit so right if you were if you're making a a an ipad desk right it would be a good idea 100 that's what i would go with and i know i that that would make perfect sense because then i could have way more flexibility with it right like how you do with your um what's it called um what are they called phaser mount yeah right yeah but uh yeah i'm not looking to do that so but there you go there's some some good options and i'll report back uh before we take our first break, I guess it's worth as a programming note,

Apple results are tomorrow. Right. I mean, so much going on with you and me. We're not going to talk about like, well, what will they be? Which we sometimes do, but there will be Apple quarterly financial results tomorrow, which means that we'll find out like the profit

and how many iPads sold and all of that. And then we'll, you know, undoubtedly we will break that down a little bit on next week's upgrade. I wanted to mention it now just to alert people that that'll be happening. I'll be making my charts and doing coverage of it. And you can go to sixcolors.com to find that tomorrow. It's afternoon Pacific time. Yeah, the results usually come out around 1.30 Pacific. And there's a phone call with analysts at about 2 Pacific usually. And that is always good. Tim that is always good.

Tim Cook is always good for a quote and trying to dodge questions from analysts, and that's all good stuff. And then the other thing to note is that, and I wrote about this on Six Colors, I built this, I mentioned earlier I was using shortcuts. I built automation for my charts because my charts up to now,

and there's like 20 charts I do every quarter. The way they get on the web is that I take screenshots of each chart and then upload them to my website in numbers, which is not great. So I have a new system for doing my charts that is automated. And the fun thing is that I built it for the Mac and it uses Automator and it works great. And I got some help from a bunch of people to do it, from Sal Sokoian and from Dr. Drang. And then I was trying to figure out how you could do it in iOS. And I got some help from Rosemary Orchard and from Federico. And I also built it for iOS. And that was a little trickier, but it works in shortcuts to do the same thing where basically I press a button and this automation runs and the output is a couple of dozen ping files

uploaded to my server with all the charts in it, which is amazing. So we'll see how it goes tomorrow. It was fun to watch this kind of unfold online as well as people were all jumping in to help out. I thought that was really fun. Yeah. A lot of people are like, can it do this? And the answer was, no. The only bad news is there are a lot of things that would seem obvious that it couldn't be done. But in the end, what you do is you print out a PDF, convert that into an image, and then just kind of carve that image up into little little images and that actually works

believe it or not so you'll be covering the results tomorrow as normal over at sixcolors.com right and then maybe maybe depending on what happens we might we might get to some discussion on it next week uh yeah i i think there'll be something to pick out of there about like ipad sales figures or uh if if tim cooks this hints at something or yeah how the iphone is doing well it's it's you know we're going we're rolling into the big holiday quarter when everything happens. This is sort of the less interesting part of Apple's year right now, but still there might be news. Which reflects technology news, hence the creation of the Summer of Fun. That's right.

That's the cycle. Although today we have so much more to get to. So much. I'm just so excited to be back, I think, honestly. I really am. I'm very, very excited about today's episode. So we take our first break and talk about TextExpander from Smile. TextExpander multiplies your team's productivity.

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for larger teams, TextExpander supports single sign-on and grouping accounts as well. This includes identity providers like Okta, OneLogin, and G Suite. I love those things. It's like, doesn't Okta and OneLogin, I have no idea what they are, but I know there are people out there like, oh my God, yes, I can get it now. So this reduces the time it takes to onboard large numbers of users as part of big teams. Now, I use TextExpander for teams. I mean, admittedly, it's much smaller teams, three of us. But when we're working on stuff and me and Stephen and Kerry are working on stuff together and one of us is updating something, it changes everything.

So for example, we have a filing system which we file our contracts. And we now use TextExpander to make sure we have consistent naming on all of the contracts. So that way, when we're looking for something, we know exactly where it is, what it is, and what it's about. It's very, very useful for stuff like that to add consistency to the team's communication, which can be, and if you work in any size team, you'll know how important that is. So go to textexpander.com slash podcast right now, and you can learn more about TechExpander, and tell them that you came to them from Upgrade.

Our thanks to TechExpander from Smile for their support of this show. Once again, that's techsexpander.com slash podcast. Our thanks to them for their support. So should we do some upstream? I think it's time. I had to cut so many things. I had so many things and just picked out a small handful. One that is the most important Upstream news that has been going on for a while,

and I think it is huge, and ramifications are massive. The Fox and Disney deal has been agreed upon. Both Fox and Disney shareholders have approved the deal for Disney to buy Fox for $71.3 billion in cash and stock. I'm sure that Fox thanked Comcast greatly for getting involved in all of this, because they got like an extra, I don't know, like $10 or $15 billion for this, including cash now, which they weren't getting before. Comcast did pull out after disney increased its offer they're going after sky now um which is weird because now disney have bought a stake in sky this is very incestuous it's it's this is so complicated to wrap your head around this stuff

so like to recap in full what disney will get once this deal goes through it still needs um a regulatory approval from india china and the eu the u needs a regulatory approval from India, China, and the EU. The U.S. regulatory approval is taken care of. I don't think this is going to be a problem, but we'll see. To recap, this deal will include Fox's film and TV studios and all of the properties that they own, which include The Simpsons, for example. It's going to get all of those. And they will also pick up a stake in Sky TV. It's going to get all of those.

And they will also pick up a stake in Sky TV. They will own Star India, which I looked up is a huge media conglomerate in India, which is like a subsidiary of Fox, and a stake in Hulu, which is hilarious because Disney is launching already, I think, two new streaming services, and now they own a big chunk in another one. Disney has basically said that they very much plan

to use the IP that they've purchased. They very they very much plan to use the ip that they've purchased they this is they're very they very very much plan to do that um especially and they've they've said this basically that there's quotes from balweiger um that when they're looking at launching their own streaming services this stuff will help them greatly yeah hulu is interesting because that's they have a stake in hulu but this will give them a majority stake. And, you know, Hulu basically was a streaming service created in the U.S. by the TV networks to give them a place i talk about on the our tv podcast every every week is what hulu um might do um because if disney owns hulu i mean there's a real question like will hulu attempt to go international because i think that's their big missing piece is that right now they're really just a vehicle for the u.s and um you know i think everybody is inclined

to believe that disney will use hulu as the place where it puts because if you think about their other services they've got like espn for sports and they've got the the streaming service they're doing that is gonna have star wars and marvel and things like that in it and it's sort of a um kid and kid and young adult kind of feel i think a little bit more um than some of the more adult stuff especially that comes from like fx and uh they hulu might be the place for that so it may be that hulu just naturally becomes another disney-driven streaming service um and expands internationally and it's a place where they can put the stuff that is kind of a little bit off of the what we would think of as like the core

disney brands to be because you know now they own not only the simpsons but like the x-files and um it's always sunny in philadelphia and and and sure so um all of that is there um so we'll see what they do with that the other thing is who owns the other big chunk of hulu universal comcast so there is there is keeps getting more and more complicated yeah so well and they're gonna have to sell so one thing that disney has to do is they have to sell all the sports channels and and who knows who will buy those because they have to divest because of espn and then fox uh network and Fox TV will stay with the Murdochs, but the programs on it that are from the Fox studio belong to Disney now,

which is also a really interesting relationship. Imagine if you think about what Disney would want and what they wouldn't want. That's how this deal was structured. Disney don't want Fox TV. What are they going to do with that? They want the characters. I think they would love those sports networks but they already own espn and that was one of the conditions of the deal from the u.s government was like no no no you can't own all the sports

networks you have to divest and some of that you can't own all the news channels either like you need to chill a bit and all the television channels we gotta have some semblance of a fair play here so um i think the interesting scenario and then something that has come up um a couple of times recently especially since comcast dropped out of the bidding for fox is that people are speculating that there may be some sort of a gentleman's agreement going on here where disney could potentially let comcast have sky in exchange for comcast agreeing to sell them their stock in hulu it's effectively a trade right that's just a theory well even if there's money involved a lot of sense it makes a lot of sense because that would give disney 90 control over hulu and like uh i think time warner cable is the other 10 it's sort of not expectation, like looking at the business models,

Comcast don't want Hulu and Disney don't want Sky. Like if you look at where they are, right, you know, it's not really that useful to them. If Comcast could have bought Fox, then great. But now they can't have that. They may as well just pick up Sky. It's less about the characters and more about content distribution. And then just, you know, so yeah.

And going forward, when everybody's trying to launch a streaming service, I'm not entirely sure that a streaming service that is kind of a neutral zone owned by many different parties where they put their content into it can survive. Hulu doesn't exist in 2018. Their business model, the way that they work, that was a very like-year-ago situation. Exactly. So it makes sense if Disney could repurpose it as its own adult, more adult-oriented stuff.

And then also have, obviously, some existing content from other places. It could still do that in the U.S. and it could fulfill that. But if they want to roll it out internationally, that might be a way for them to do it. Anyway, we'll have to see what happens here because once this deal closes, like all of these strange things happen where, you know, there are going to be new executives in charge at Disney, too. Like the rumor is that like the Disney TV head is going to go and that it may actually be somebody from fox who replaces that person and what happens to the uh the fox cable networks like fx and fxx which have really great content on it um but now it's going to be you know what will disney want to do with that and where will they take that strategically that's all to play for and then of course from the fanboy perspective yes this means

that the x-men um will be back at marvel studios where they had sold them out to fox all the x-men movies had been made by fox now that's the same people who do all the marvel movies they're all in the same place and that's fantastic four right fantastic four as well yeah which which kind of belly flopped at Fox. So maybe Marvel's got a new take on that. That'll work. And then there are other properties too that it's just like, you know, you lift your eyebrows. Like, yes, Bart Simpson and Mickey Mouse work for the same company now, which is really fascinating.

The X-Files is now a Disney property. That's weird. Like, there's just a lot of those things. It's like, really that so yeah strange bedfellows we'll see what happens um on that note super quick uh there has been another announced show for the possible who knows what disney streaming service announced the comic-con star wars the clone wars is going to get its final season um apparently i haven't seen the show but my understanding from reading about it um the story wasn't finished the show went off the air but the story wasn't over um and they tried to do some things to wrap it up but there is a

whole new season coming which will finish the overall arc of the show um this clone wars animated series will join john favreau's star wars project that will premiere on the streaming service whatever it might end up being right and some presumably some marvel projects that we haven't heard of either so who knows i mean the stuff they announced at comic-con and the stuff they didn't it makes me kind of try to calibrate like when they actually are going to launch this and what's going to be on there if they if they only have certain things to announce but yeah they my friends who are star wars fans who are like huge star wars fans were blown away by this because no there were no reports that this was going to happen everybody expected that they would have a follow-up to rebels which is the most recent one that replaced

uh clone wars and clone wars got caught in the shuffle right it was on cartoon network which was a different network um not owned by disney and when disney bought lucasfilm one of the things that happened is they're like yeah we're gonna not make that show anymore we're gonna make a new show on our own network and uh so this is interesting that maybe some contractual reasons why it didn't happen before but that they're gonna get to kind of complete the story because it was generally a well-liked show, although I have not watched it. Maybe someday. And last thing I want to talk about was YouTube Premium. So they've announced their slate of programming that's going to, I think, going to be their full programming. And it includes Will

Smith, Kirsten Dunst, Robert Downey Jr. and many more Hollywood stars that you may have heard of and this is very perplexing to me because YouTube Red when it launched was all about YouTube giving TV series to the YouTubers right, like that was kind of the idea

but now all of the YouTube premium shows that they are talking about, all of the new products, all of the new projects shows that they are talking about, all of the new products, all of the new projects, I should say, are all with Hollywood stars. So they renewed Michael Stevens' Mind Field. He's from Vsauce. He's a YouTuber, as well as a show called Foursome, which is, I think, the fourth season, which is one of the very original YouTube Red shows. So they're the YouTuber shows, but they're just renewals of successful shows.

All of the new stuff that i could find is coming from hollywood so clearly youtube have decided that they want to position themselves more in line with netflix and amazon and tv i guess instead of focusing on leveraging the styles already on their platform i think this is a bad idea yeah because what what makes youtube youtube yeah is what they're saying is okay we have reached here because all the reasons youtube is successful now that we're here we're gonna create this thing that you you pay for that is just another netflix and there's a disconnect i don't think it works yeah i know like will smith for example right like he is he's he's

on youtube in a big way now and that's like a big thing for him but this isn't a series that he's doing like there's this whole thing with a couple of youtubers who challenged him to jump out of a helicopter and he's doing it i think the channel's called yes theory he's going to jump out of a helicopter i think that's what it is and they're making a one-off tv special a premium special of him jumping out of the helicopter right so that's just like he said he was going to do it and then youtube called him like we'll pay you x amount a million dollars if you give that to us and don't put it on your channel and it's like all right whatever right but there's no series going on there where like i don't believe that kirsten dunst and robert downey jr are on youtube in a big way i mean i

haven't seen that so this is purely like a there are these projects these names are attached and youtube have purchased them i don't think it makes any sense to me like it i just don't get it like youtube premium should be about giving really famous youtube stars tv shows like i don't understand why they're not doing that and i know that they've had some projects that got cancelled because of some issues with various YouTubers. But there are many people on their platform that could do this. I mean, I think a lot of people

that subscribe to YouTube Premium do it because they watch a lot of YouTubers and they even want to support them or remove the ads. That's kind of the flow. I don't think people are signing up because of X YouTube premium show. Those shows are like a benefit.

And I would expect that YouTube are like, well, I know what we'll do. We'll bring in Hollywood stars because then people, I don't think that's going to force more people to sign up for YouTube premium. I don't think it works that way. I don't know.

Yeah. So Tim Goodman wrote a piece about this because they're having the Television Critics Association summer press tour in LA right now. And he wrote a piece in the Hollywood Reporter about the sessions with Facebook Watch and YouTube Premium. And it's a fun article to read. Basically, Facebook Watch, what Tim says is, these people have no idea what they're doing. Right. Okay. Like they don't have no idea what they're doing, right? Okay. Like they don't have a strategy.

It seems that they don't have a plan. They have no idea what they're doing. YouTube. What he says is the people who are working at YouTube, the TV execs that they've hired are good. They know what they're doing in terms of like finding programming. The problem is, I think one of the things is what you say, which is it's just a complete mismatch with what YouTube is and what it represents.

And what Tim's basic final thing is, you know, lots of people in the entertainment industry are terrified of Netflix and all the money it spends and Amazon and all the money that it's starting to spend. We didn't even get to that. We may talk about that next week a little bit about like everything that uh that because amazon is now like geared up with their new executive team to take on netflix and they're making lots of announcements um people in the entertainment industry are not afraid of certainly facebook and really youtube at this point and that that to tim and i think to me that's telling when you know when you talk to people in the industry and they're like oh you, YouTube, they're going to have a premium service and they're going to spend a lot of money on content. There doesn't seem to be a great deal of fear of that.

And I think that's because they're looking at it too and saying, this doesn't make sense. I don't think this is going to work. All right. So that's Upstream. We'll have more next week as we always do. There's always more. There's always more. Upstream, we'll have more next week as we always do.

There's always more. There's always more. Cam, let's talk quickly about the MacBook Pro performance thing. So in between the episode you did with Stephen, which the MacBook Pros had just came out, and now there was this whole debacle about the throttling of the CPUs on the new MacBook Pros. I recommend people listen as a piece of follow-out to episode 284 of ATP,

because when I saw this news, I followed it very lightly because this sort of stuff doesn't interest me greatly. And considering I was on vacation, didn't need to talk about it on a show, I kind of let it go, honestly. I was familiar with it. I knew something was going on

and I didn't really bother to look into like why is this happening like what does it mean for a chip to be throttled etc etc and i would do the research when i needed to talk about it and i listened to episode 284 of atp on the plane home and got all of the information that i needed it is an excellent honestly i think one of the best episodes of ATP ever. It is an excellent episode. They do a really good job of breaking down all of the stuff that was going on with Intel,

why it's a problem, why it might not be a problem, why Apple are in the wrong, why they're not in the wrong, and then also a bunch of really funny stuff about pasta. So I recommend listening to that episode because I don't really want to go into the hows and whys of what was going on here. Except to say for the fact that it got fixed.

There was a bug in firmware that got fixed. And I know that Apple issued a statement to you, which you wrote about in Six Colors. Right. Yeah, it's a very good episode. They also talk about the keyboard stuff a little bit, which leads to one of my favorite ATP titles ever, which is Hotel California Keyboard. Yeah, very good. That was a Casey line.

I was very proud of him. Yeah. You can hear how proud he is as he says it. He's like, I got this. I got this. Yeah, and the way I put it in our notes is sort of like, disaster, OMG, LOL, nope. It just came and it went went you got to spin down the

outrage machine because uh it turns out it was a bug and um my my mini rant about this topic because we did kind of like yeah due to the way the recording schedule we didn't get to dive into it is i think it's interesting how um people are so ready to be outraged. And Apple bears some, we mentioned this on download last week, Apple bears some of the responsibility for kind of priming the pump here because people are grumbly and unhappy with some of the decisions Apple's made with the MacBook Pro, right? There's been something super wrong with each one of them. As you said very rightly, which I completely forgotten about with Stephen, at first it was the ports it was usbc was the problem then that was the first one right

everyone hated that there were no and ram and and the max ram was too small 16 which we kind of got over some of that then the keyboards were a problem with the next one right because it seemed like the keyboards people didn't like the keyboards but they weren't catastrophically failing. But then over time, either that or just the time passes and crumbs fall into your keyboard and then the keyboard became the cause. So then by the time the second one had come out, right, where the keyboard wasn't any different, they were failing. So then the problem was the keyboards were a problem. So then the problem was the keyboards are a problem. So when MacBook Pros come out and there's throttling on the CPUs, you would immediately think, oh, well, this is what they've done this time. Because every revision of these machines has brought with it a new thing to be frustrated about, right?

So it makes sense why this caught on so quickly, because it just seemed like par for the course that there would be a big problem, a new big problem. Yeah, so that primes the pump. And then of course, people are looking for something to get outraged about. Yeah, there is the thing, right? Like as well, this is the landscape that we live in,

especially with technology reporting. Things being wrong drive a lot of traffic. So if you are in YouTube or writing on the web, you need numbers. On podcasts, it doesn't work that way. don't at least we don't go for the shock things with the numbers because it doesn't really affect in podcasts like you don't get like that hit and run type thing podcasts are subscription driven right yeah so yeah so anyway this, the issue here is that, uh, people, because they're primed for it and

because also outrage sales, um, there there's this like leaping to basically what I saw was people are basically like, Oh my God, I can't believe that Apple released systems that are high-end laptops designed for video editors that don't work. So the logic here is, I can't believe Apple would do this where they would release a high-end video editing laptop and it's slower than before. And basically it spins down to like no processor speed unless you're in a meat locker.

And how could they do this? And Apple's totally lost the plot. And this is a disaster, right? When, not to bring up the Occam's razor, the plot and this is a disaster right when not to not to bring up the you know occam's razor the idea that probably the simplest explanation is the correct one um i looked at this at the time and i was like that's got to be a bug right like because there's no way that apple would choose to release a product that was so totally broken that it was unsuitable for a task like they're not going to do that.

What do you think would happen if Apple was like, we can get away with it. Nobody's paying attention to the products we release. We can charge them $5,000 for this thing and it doesn't work and nobody will ever notice. Like, no, that doesn't happen. But people will believe, as we've learned, people will believe kind of anything they hear on the internet. And so it wasn't logical that this was the case. It was very clearly a bug and almost certainly a software bug because, again, they do a lot of internal testing of these systems before they're released. and compression and all of that for an extended period of time before overheating and throttling down to an unusable level, they would know. And there's no way they would ship that. There's no way they would ship that. People are like, oh no, they would ship it and try to trick people. It's like, no, of course they wouldn't. Of course they wouldn't. They know what the blowback would be for

that. So the logical thing to do is to look at this and say huh that seems really really weird i wonder what's going on here and let's talk to apple and and so like i think the first video was was perfectly responsible that was a legitimate a video editor being like what's going on here um but then it goes and it turns into this whole gate crazy thing and apple knows it because, you know, the fact that Apple released a bug a week later suggests that they were on it and they found the problem. And they had people working probably, you know, all the time through the weekend to get that release out on, I think, Tuesday morning. They had to identify the problem. They contacted the original youtuber they got his sample files um they you know they ran it on the hardware they did all of this stuff

and found the issue which was it sounds like a very esoteric bug where some data didn't get included in the final build of the software on the shipping systems and it had it didn't cause them to break it just caused this weird anomalous behavior in the thermal management portion which would then lead to a throttle down and they you know they missed that so again you know it's it's not it's a time when people are primed to be looking for things from Apple because they're suspicious of Apple's decisions in this product. And I don't want to downplay that. Like, if everything was great and people loved everything Apple was doing with these laptops

and then something like this came out, it would have not happened quite like this. But in the end, you know, it was a bug. I think it was pretty clear that it was a bug. It was pretty clear that it was not a total disaster where Apple had built hardware that was unusable. It was also not, not a bug, right? Like, no, no, I'm sure it's fine. I'm sure it's fine. Right. You can go either way with these stories and just say, everything's great. Don't believe the haters. And you could also say, oh my God, the sky is falling. And unfortunately for everybody, the truth is yeah it

was a dumb bug that they fixed in a week and now everything is fine so you know that's that's the world we live in people are gonna people are gonna freak out but people were primed to freak out because there's been so much unhappiness with the macbook pro one last question and this will move on obviously apple responded to this pretty quickly do you think they maybe should say that they're looking into it like they don't say anything until it's fixed wouldn't it wouldn't it help them if they even just like went to the verge and they were just like we want to give a statement that we can this isn't as intended and we are looking into it would that not help yeah so um last week on download michael gardenberg was on who used to work at apple and what he said was you know there are a couple different ways to do this and one is

to acknowledge the problem and say we're working on it and then you acknowledge the problem or the other way is acknowledge the problem and here's our fix for it and that seems to be what they basically did this time they thought they could get to it so quickly that they wanted to have not just an acknowledgement of the problem but the solution it's also possible that that this they discovered the problem like figured out what it was on like saturday or sunday like that they very late in the game found out what it was right and they and before that if they don't know exactly what is causing it there is this fear that you know you can't say what you're going to do because the fix the fix might take six months right like you have no idea right we're investigating this but yeah if it if it requires six months if it is a hardware problem whatever it is like if you don't know

okay i think that's the inclination but i agree i think that um that apple uh changing its changing its rules right changing its playbook all of those things uh that i've i've written about that we've talked about. This is one of those places where they're doing it because this was much more rapid a response. And I think they did a really good job with their response to it. But I think that will be part of the postmortem for them is should we have jumped faster on saying we're in touch with Dave Lee and we're looking into this and the the which I don't think they did and say you know his results are not do not match what we've tested internally and are not intended is as a way to basically say you know this is not the product to screw you yeah you didn't discover an ugly fact about these systems there's something wrong here and we're investigating it that's probably all the statement you need to make until you've got an answer yeah and and i if they didn't i can't remember it's possible that somebody got nobody i didn't see that but yeah but that that would be the clear signal people people were still working on videos trying to show what the problem

was like yeah and they're all the red reddit threads about it like we're trying to pick it apart and so that would be one way that they could have gotten ahead of it is what we're seeing we we're in touch with him what he's seeing is not what we've seen in all of our thorough testing of these systems um and it's not supposed to work like that. Like that, that gets them ahead of it to say, Hey people, this is not business as usual because that was the conspiracy theory was like,

I can't believe they shipped this system. That's so hot that it can't work. And Apple could have very quickly said, no, no, it's not supposed to do that. That's wrong. We're working on it because they,

because they said in their statement, ultimately, that all their testing showed what their test claims were based on, you know, obviously, stuff where they didn't see that. But then when they made the fix, their test claims were exactly the same. So they'd done a lot of testing and seen it and they knew what the speed was supposed to be in those scenarios. And they couldn't understand why it wasn't so you know they could have probably had a little more confidence to say no the computer you know your high-end i9 15-inch laptop uh does not stop being functional encoding video after a minute like they probably could have said that so maybe they will next time who knows all right jason let Jason, let's take a break and thank our friends over at Pingdom for their support of this show.

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All right, so there was some news a couple of weeks ago that we wanted to talk about, and it's all about Adobe and something that they are doing, which seems really surprising to me because, one, it's all about Adobe and something that they are doing which seems really surprising to me because one it's happening now and two it's happening at all and this is this is a report on Bloomberg that apparently there is going to be a newly rebuilt full version of Photoshop that will run on desktop machines and iPads coming in 2019 with other apps, including Illustrator, to follow.

This is full Photoshop feature parity across tablets and Macs and PCs. That's what we're looking to do. Yeah, it's basically new Photoshop, new Photoshop where they're going to use their, I think like Lua and all their other kind of like existing sort of scripting infrastructure. I think it's like what they did with Lightroom where there's now a new Lightroom.

And it'll probably – everybody who's cheering about Photoshop being on the iPad now will also probably be booing later when they discover that it'll be new Photoshop. And that like on the Mac, you'll still be able to run kind of like classic Photoshop and they'll leave it there. I expect it to be like final cut, right? It's going to be really good in a bunch of ways. It's going to be easier for people to get used to, but it's going to miss some, some things that real professionals use.

And eventually it will get, especially, especially initially, which is, which is, I think basically what's gone on with the new light room. Cause they've done this with light room where there's a new light room and they keep the kind of classic light room around and it's a very different thing. And I imagine

it'll be kind of like that, where it's not quite the same Photoshop you're used to, but it will be like the new Photoshop that goes everywhere, including on iPad, which is that, I mean, that's like, and then Illustrator and other kind of like, you know, this idea that they're kind of committing to the iPad as a

platform for the Creative Cloud stuff is, that's super exciting so uh the the rumor the report suggests that this will be demoed and shown off at adobe max which is their conference in october and i should say not not a rumor right it's a they they confirmed it that this is absolutely what they're doing so sorry this this is something that i was getting to but but you're completely... Basically what happens, this was a report from Bloomberg, which was then confirmed, in essence. Scott Belsky, Adobe's chief product officer of Creative Cloud, has said they are working on new cross-platform apps,

but hasn't given any timings. There are other things in this report which suggest the timings, right? If I'm remembering it correctly, the original report did not have this quote from Adobe in it. It was just like, here's a thing we know, and then this got added in. I'm not sure, but definitely they confirmed it. They either confirmed it to the reporters before they went to publish, or they confirmed it

after the fact, but they have confirmed it for sure. So, if this is apparently being shown off Adobe Max, I would be willing to put down a significant sum of money that this will not be the first time that we see the Photoshop running on iPad. I'm pretty confident that that will be shown off

as part of the demo of the new iPad Pros in September. I cannot believe that they will have something ready to show in October that they won't put on stage in September during the iPhone keynote keynote right like because i would guarantee that apple and adobe have worked together on this in some way right like there is an element of collaboration which has occurred to ensure that this is going to work for everyone from the case of like how do we sell this right like, how are we going to work together? Or maybe we can do a deal about how much Creative Cloud costs, right?

Like, you know, there's going to be some stuff there, which I'm very confident happens with some of these bigger players. I expect there's a bunch of things going on there and Apple is helping them. So like Adobe, you've written about this in the past. They have iOS apps that are supposed to do some Photoshop-like things, but nobody uses them. And that's probably why they're doing this yeah that's it they have super

weird um well i think their conception was uh let's build little bite-sized apps for phones and um the problem is that that became their ios strategy including on the ipad and it's clear from apps like Affinity Photo that you can do Photoshop style, fully functional apps on iOS and Adobe just isn't. And so I think I feel for them because I think they made a decision with the information they had at the time that they thought was maybe the right one. And that now it looks like that was, you know, with the growing power of the iPad, that was a problem because those apps were not great for the ipad they were reconceptions when i think a lot of

their um their customers wanted photoshop like i talked to um a couple of of tweet exchanges with a woman named jen bartell who's a fantastic comic book artist. And she has been detailing like how she, she likes the iPad, but most of the work she does is on a, on a tablet that is a windows tablet. That's like a, it's like a Wacom tablet and windows laptop basically in one, uh, because she needs full Photoshop for so much of what she does and the Adobe apps don't cut it. She needs full Photoshop for so much of what she does and the Adobe apps don't cut it. And the other apps on, on, uh, the iPad don't cut it. Although, um, you know, there are some apps that she likes and we'll do some work on.

And I, I pointed her at this story and she was like, yeah, we're very excited about it because, because she really likes, you know, the iPad, but, uh, doesn't do Photoshop and she needs Photoshop for her job. So I think it's exciting that we're going to get there. Because the iPad absolutely is capable of doing all of this. And, and yet, this also seems to be part of Adobe strategy of like, what are we going to do for these core apps that we have people spending a lot of money on with subscriptions on an ongoing basis. How do we, how do we position them for a future world where, you know,

where the windows interface is, you know, has the options to be, you know, touch centric and run on tablets where Apple has got the iPad. What do we do to cover all of the bases? And it's a lot of what we've been talking about with the idea of Marzipan and where Apple goes with its OS and its app platform.

Like you kind of want to have something today that can scale, if not from phone size, if you're Adobe, although maybe, but from small screens all the way up to super large screens and with touch or mouse and keyboard as interfaces. And that's what an app should be like now.

I also wonder, you talk about adobe and apple talking i do wonder if one of the back channel conversations they might be having is about what apple is doing with the marzipan stuff because if i were adobe if i were adobe i would i would like to not make technical decisions about where I'm going with this that would be the wrong decisions to make in terms of what my Mac version is and what my iPad version is. And, you know, it may not matter and they may not have an answer, but it would be one of those things like if you're Apple too, wouldn't you want to collaborate with Adobe so that if Adobe put a lot of effort into doing an iPad version of Photoshop in, let's say, early to mid-2019,

that maybe that work could also go toward a new version of Mac Photoshop later in the year. Maybe. I don't know. That's interesting. I hadn't even thought about that. What does that mean for the amount of work that Adobe are going to do? Are they eventually just going to end up throwing out one of them? I mean, the idea is that these are very cross-platform already, that a lot of the work they're doing is at a higher level where it's going to be the same on Windows

and it's going to be the same on iPad and it'll be the same on Mac because they're using their high-level, their scripting language that they build everything in, that a lot of that will be uh high level enough that there won't be as much cross-platform work that needs to be done i think that's the idea here but yeah i just i wanted to it the thought occurred to me like do we invest if we're adobe do we invest in building the mac version of this and the ios version of this or things we can do so that they're they're basically and maybe the answer is no no just build a Mac version don't worry about this app kit stuff it's you know just go just go or maybe the answer is actually yeah just build the app kit version and then that can be your Mac version too which depends on how

powerful those apps can be next fall so do you think that Adobe are potentially nervous about products like the Affinity stuff or Pixelmator and things like that? I don't, I think they don't like it. I think that they don't like hearing from their customers that they can't get on the iPad and that they maybe are using things like this. The challenge is so many of Adobe's customers are on multiple devices and

they're paying a subscription. So I think it's less likely that somebody is going to be like, I could just use Pixelmator. I mean, it is on the Mac and iOS, right? I could just use affinity because they're probably using the creative suite. They're using all of the cloud apps or multiple cloud apps. And they're using it on

multiple platforms. And I think Adobe probably feels like they may be risking losing some customers. But I think it's more that they have this pain point where they have customers who are using their products and paying for their services. And those people are frustrated that they're locked out of their iPads. And that that's the problem here is that they're frustrated because they're like, well, I can do it on my iPad, but then it doesn't connect to Creative Cloud, which is what I need because that's what I use on my desktop. And that's a frustration. I think there are some people who would be like, well, I don't need Photoshop because I can just get Pixelmator and I can buy it and I don't have to spend 110 or 120 a year on it there are those people and you know i adobe will lose some of them but adobe

i think is going to lose some of them anyway because um you know you have to if you have to pay a subscription fee there's some people are going to be like i don't want to do it i can i get away with it can i avoid doing especially if you don't use them that extensively right exactly if you're just doing some simple resizing or retouching something like pixelmator which is what i use because i don't really understand photoshop enough that that i could even do a lot of the things that you would want to do with it uh but pixelmator i can understand because it is more simplified but the pixelmator version on ipad good, but the UI is a little clunky. So I'm very keen to see what Adobe will turn out. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see which approach they take.

Because for me, the biggest asset that Photoshop has, and the reason that I use it, and I pay for it, and I pay the annual subscription fee for it, is because I learned Photoshop a long time ago, like an impossibly long time ago, more than it was probably like more than 25 years ago. Now I learned how to use Photoshop and cause I learned in college and Photoshop, it works like Photoshop. It feels like Photoshop. Like I know where everything is. I know how it works. And there's a great comfort in that. And that also there's a great speed in being able to like, you know, I understand what I need to do and how I do it in Photoshop. And the problem on my iPad is that Pixelmator is good. Affinity Photo is good.

Acorn is good on my Mac, like, but they're not Photoshop. And it's hard for me to adjust. And then I go back to my Mac and I'm using Photoshop still. And for me, I think that's Adobe's to my mac and i'm using photoshop still and and for me i think that's adobe's greatest asset is if they can put something on the ipad that feels like photoshop and behaves like photoshop and works with photoshop then that's a big deal but that would be interesting though right because like will new photoshop be like old photoshop that is the big question right and that's the challenge that you make when you advance a product

like that which is what apple found out with final cut that you know you can make something that's the challenge that you make when you advance a product like that, which is what Apple found out with Final Cut. You can make something that's newer and better. Look at Microsoft, right? Windows 10. Was it 10 or 7? The one where they completely changed the UI. 7, right? They completely changed the UI and then went back in 8 to basically what it was like before. Yeah, because you want to advance your platform,

but you've got people who don't want change. And so your existing users are your biggest asset in a lot of ways. So that'll be a challenge for Adobe too. But I don't know. I think it's interesting though, that Adobe, after all of this, has finally kind of like come around to the idea that the iPad is a platform that they want their apps to be on. I do think that part of what's going in here is that they need to apps to be on. I do think that they're, they're part of what's going in here is that they need to do the work to understand how you do a touch and tablet interface for Windows, right for Windows 10, because Microsoft very much wants that to be, you know, that to be a primary experience, not just the keyboard and mouse driven cursor based kind of

interface. And so people want that on Windows, and they want it on iPad. And that's basically the same problem interface wise. So you know, Adobe gets to think about all of that and release a new generation of Photoshop that runs on those devices too. This is probably going to be big for the iPad, right? Like I feel like people that already use the iPad for creative work are going to love it. And it's going to be big for the iPad, right? Like I feel like people that already use the iPad for creative work are going to love it. And it's going to push a lot of people that weren't using it to buy one, because if it truly is like this, this, the same thing everywhere for a lot of creative people, I guess, wouldn't it be lovely to use your like device at home, which has a tablet attached to it, like a Wacom?

And then when you're on the go, instead of taking a laptop and a Wacom with you, you just get your iPad and your Apple Pencil and you're good to go. Yeah. I feel like it's going to be really big for a lot of people. Yeah, and people will say, oh, well, that's silly because they could do it today.

And it's like, yes, they could. And yet then when I talk to somebody like Jen Bartel, what she says is, you know, but I really can't because there are very specific things in my job that require Photoshop. There are brushes that Photoshop offers that she uses that are not in other apps. And the apps that they're in are these little Adobe apps

that don't work well enough for her to do what she needs to do. And there are just there are a lot of people who are like that. They're not all they're not all being stubborn, right? Some of it is that they just they have something in their workflow that they built up across all her other devices. And they're not going to throw it all away just so that they can also use the iPad. Right? Because there are some times where I have to use Word. Right? Like, there's something I need to do. And I need Word for it. And I have to use Word. Right? Like, there's something I need to do,

and I need Word for it. And I have no other option. I have to use Word. And so that's what I'll have to use. Right? Like, it's a similar kind of idea where I typically don't use Word. I typically use Pages.

But sometimes someone will send me something, and the only way I can format this is actually using Word. It's just kind of how it is and then I can do about it. Yeah, so similar kind of idea. I do think this would probably be awkward for Microsoft

because a selling point of the Surface right now is that it is a tablet with a stylus that runs full Photoshop. I think it is a big selling point for the Surface, and that selling point would go away, and I think that's going big selling point for the Surface. And that selling point would go away. And I think that's going to be awkward for them. Because I think a lot of people, given the choice, would go with an iPad over a Surface.

But I think there are many people that make the choice to go Surface because Surface has Windows apps on it full windows apps on it surface or or like i mentioned like you know other companies that are coupling really high quality um you know tablet and pen technology on a pc that's running windows 10 and they have the advantage now because those devices you talk to artists like those devices let them use the tools that they use at home when they travel. Whereas with the iPad, you're left using weird tools that are just on the iPad. And it's not that the iPad screens aren't great. Like the new iPad Pro screens, and I imagine the newer ones will be even better, of course. But with the ProMotion and the high resolution digitizer for the pen for the apple pencil um

it's great hardware right but the problem is that the software that they expect to be there to do their job isn't there and it is on windows so that isn't a damage that microsoft loses if this happens super excited to see what this looks like in a couple of months like i think we're going to see in september but if we don't we'll see it in october but i would be flabbergasted it's going to be one of my draft picks i've got to remember to pick that one right like adobe on stage this is very important somebody tweet at me when we say we're doing the draft and tell me that i need to pick uh adobe that would be very useful thank you for your service all right so let's uh take final break, and I have a summer of fun topic, Jason,

that I want to do today. I have a summer of fun dealio, but today I want to talk about a new sponsor for the show, and that is Green Chef. Green Chef is a meal delivery service that includes everything you need to cook delicious gourmet meals that you can feel good about. This is what makes

Green Chef different. They send a wide variety of organic ingredients and imaginative new recipes each week with varying meal plan styles. So you may have used and seen other services that you get. These are your recipes and you can go with it. But Green Chef offer a bunch of different categories. You can choose meal plans for paleo diets,

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and its journey is tracked from planting to plating. And recipes include pre-made sauces, dressings, and spices so you get more flavor in less time now jason i know that you were sent a green chef box and i'm really keen to know what you think i got the uh i actually got the veggie box which is interesting that was of all of the choices the one that fit the best with what our diets are in this house because we have like very specific meat things that we don't do. And I am a little bit skeptical of, of, uh, vegetarian cuisine, right? Like I'm, I'm, I was not, I was raised by people from the Midwest, arguable there's a robot or not episode about that. But anyway, um, so I'm skeptical of like vegetarian meals, but they were, they were really good. There was a, um, this like corn cakes thing that was like, it was like corn

and feta cheese. And there was like the cucumber in it. And it was these, they were so good. And there was also a pad thai that I made. Lauren made the corn cake one and it was so good. But I made the pad thai and it was incredibly tasty. The ingredients were high quality. I hate chopping vegetables. And one of the things that I was impressed by about the Green Chef stuff is that a lot of it comes in, it's already chopped or it's already like if you need a quarter of a something, it gives you a quarter of a something and then you can chop that up. And so there was a lot less food prep than i was kind of dreading honestly it was super easy to make and they

tasted really good even though i do eat meat and was skeptical of the vegetarian meals um i was impressed they were they were super tasty very good and easy to make that's awesome uh their recipes are quick and easy as jason says, step-by-step instructions. They have chef tips and photos to help guide you along. Green Chef thinks that dinner should be planned around your life, not the other way around, which is why they love to make it so easy for you. And they give you so many different choices as well. For $50 off your first box of Green Chef, go to greenchef.us slash upgrade. Once again, that is greenchef, G-R-E-E-N-C-H-E-F.

That's G-R-E-E-N-C-H-E-F dot U-S slash upgrade for $50 off your first box of Green Chef. Our thanks to Green Chef for their support of this show and RelayFM. All right, so my summer of fun topic for you,ason is the perfect ios device so i thought there was way too much mac stuff uh in in that episode that you do with steven so i want to rebalance it out now that i'm back even though we had the full ipad episode but shush don't worry about that uh so so i want i was in uh when i was in san francisco i went i went to a microsoft store I saw a Microsoft store, so I went in there and looked around because they had the Surface Studio there, and I've never seen one of those.

So I wanted to kind of just poke around at it and pick it up, put it down, that kind of thing. They also had Surface Books there as well. They're interesting devices, right, because they are these hybrid devices, and we've spoken about this a bunch. We've spoken about the possibility of an iBook, like an iOS laptop. We've spoken about the possibility of an iBook, like an iOS laptop.

We've spoken about that. But whilst that might be a device which seems like a good idea, I kind of thought, what if we were given free reign? If Johnny came over and he's like, hey guys, come into my white room, and we went in there and it's all white in there, and he goes, you can

make whatever you want here. Free reign to create your own iOS hardware. We can make whatever you want here. You have free reign to create your own iOS hardware. We will do whatever you want and create a new product in your vision. I want to know what it would look like. And we'll both go through this together. I have a couple of areas, like a couple of key areas to talk about, and we can just see what happens. So for you, if you were given the

opportunity to create your own ios device first off would it be desktop or laptop and what would the form factor look like ah boy uh oh this power mike this power concerns me now i i don't i don't want to wield it incorrectly great power j power, Jason, comes great responsibility. Mike, I am creating a tablet. Okay. Not a desktop, not a laptop. I'm going to create a tablet. What attaches to the tablet?

I mean, we could say, I could spin this the other way. I'm creating a laptop, but really i'm not i'm creating a tablet that can become laptop like that's what i want okay so what what does that mean is it like it has a detachable keyboard that has a hinge in it right like yeah yeah honestly what i want is i want something very much like what I've got now, where I've got the 12.9 inch iPad Pro and the bridge keyboard. I want a large iPad Pro-like tablet that has a dock, basically, that's like the bridge keyboard. That's got something where I can attach it's not going to be kind of all like uh almost falling off if i put it on my lap like i want it to be solid i'd like it to be in this case since it's going to be physically attached that way i want it to be using a smart connector of some sort so that it's not i don't have to deal with bluetooth pairing i don't have to deal with uh charging it or anything like that i want all of that together and of course unlike my bridge keyboard

this would have a trackpad at the bottom oh okay okay right so that's that's in the the um the overarching view that's basically what i want what i want is an ipad that's dockable into an accessory made by apple that is a full keyboard and trackpad that allows me to move the cursor on the screen because you can already do text insertion cursor and I hope that will grow to other things as time goes on and type and have it auto connect and work like a laptop but let me pop it out on a moment's notice and turn it back into tablet mode. One quick question for you. The hinge itself, does it do that 180 thing where you can flip it around, or is it just laptop?

Like the form factor, is it just laptop, or is it one of those convertibles? Just laptop. Just laptop, because if I want a tablet, I wouldn't be able to just take it out and have it be a thin tablet. Yeah, a thin tablet. Exactly. So, of course I want this device, right? And I want there to be a laptop form factor for the iPad because that's how I tend to use my iPad, right?

Is in a laptop form factor, and I would love that. But one of the reasons that I talk about this, and I think one of the reasons that we all focus on it, is because it seems like the most natural, obvious next step for the hardware, right? To become a little bit more laptop-like, which Apple will be moving towards, kind of shifting, shifting, shifting. But the thing is, I already have a mobile iOS device. It's my iPad.

What I want is a big desktop iOS device. I want the iMac of iOS. That's what I want. Because when I'm at home, I use my 12-inch iPad, especially now with the plethora of stands I'm using, right? I use it fixed in position with a keyboard. I want to be able to have a 25 28 inch screen which is not incredibly

heavy it's movable maybe is there's some kind of little like uh articulated arm i could use or whatever right so i could bring it down if i wanted to and touch on it but it's you know it's not it's not it's not like it's it weights itself, but still kind of can be moved around, right? Like, so in theory, I could move it to somewhere else in the house if I wanted to, right? So maybe it's still got a battery in it, right? Maybe it's not completely plugged in all the time. So it's still somewhat movable, but not a portable.

It is intended to live at home or in an office. It is this device, which kind of stays as it is, but doesn't completely lose the portability, right? Like, it's more movable than our desktop computers are right now, whether you have a hipster bag or not, right? Like, that's the whole deal with it. But it is a desktop version, because when I am here at home, that's kind of how I use my ipads i have my 10 inch ipad to take with me when i go places and i have my 12 inch ipad which i use kind of just fixed in position and i sometimes think to myself wouldn't it be nice to have an even bigger one i'm really happy

that you went this way because that was the other thing i thought about asking about um because those to me like and we could talk about a straight-up laptop. And I think that Apple could make that, although there is that question of if Apple's actually, with unifying the app platforms, doesn't need to make that. Which is why I kind of like, the core reason that I travel with the iPad

is that I love it as a tablet. And if it was a laptop, I would love it less if it could only be a laptop because i wanted to be a tablet but the other part of it is absolutely the you know surface studio style desktop ios device that we don't have yet and it wouldn't have all those issues where it would need to be functional in a keyboard and pointer mode of some sort to a certain degree which it which it wouldn't be today. And it would need to be ergonomically very different, like the Surface Studio is, where you could really position it in different ways so that you could have kind of a very touch-oriented view of it, or you could kind of back it off and have that keyboard-driven

version of it. And we've used things like that. Viya's on stand enough to know, like, you can do it, but the ergonomics are going to be really important in how you do sort of that. And I think for me, those are the two iOS devices that I would like to see the best, the most. I think they're,

they're still depending on Apple strategy, having something that's like a straight up laptop that runs iOS. That would be, you know, cost what, what a iPad, like, right.

Like a $600 laptop that runs iOS that would be, you know, cost what, what a iPad, like, right. Like a $600 laptop that runs iOS. I think that would be really interesting, but it's not what I want. So like, I was thinking about this, this, this device here. Right. And even when you were mentioning about the trackpad, of course I would want a trackpad, but I am also, again, this is like, this is a super difficult thing. I'm also keen to understand, what else could there be? I don't think we have any answers to this, but if you're thinking about, we went from all keyboard control to having mice, and then we went from keyboard and mouse to having trackpads, and then we went from that to touchscreens.

Is there another step that could be taken for a device which is kind of like ios but you're controlling it less of your like less direct input with your hands like i wonder like you know we also have styluses too right that's another one we have all these different input methods like is that necessarily the best one is there something else i don't know but like that would be interesting to think about too because i don't know if like taking this device and then putting a cursor like just like a mouse cursor on it is like the best way to interact with it like i don't oh yeah i agree what i mean i don't know what that is maybe there's something else you know maybe there's some kind of sensor that can track things in a certain way

like so you can move your hands but not have them on the screen, something like that. I keep thinking of what we have with Face ID and that sensor and how kind of we didn't believe that was possible and then they made it possible. And I do wonder about sensors, since Apple has spent a lot of time on sensor technology and also on kind of machine learning and things like that like is there an interface that lets you look right like literally like look and gesture it sounds sounds wild but that's not you know like it could work though right like could you know like we don't know what those interfaces look like but it feels like something that could happen now you know especially as we move more into like a lot of the things that are happening in vr and ar and mixed reality and stuff is using these sensors and controllers right the controllers have interesting sensors and like so for example

the oculus controller it has uh touch sensors in the buttons so it knows whether you've just got your finger on the button or you've pressed the button right right they they interact differently so that's kind of click that's a click push to click uh so that's you know there are there are there's a lot of interesting stuff going taking sensors and using them slightly differently and i would love to know what that look like what is the version of a trackpad for a device which is kind of this touch thing? So I think there's something in there as well. But I wanted to talk about the software as well, right?

Because my device... So what screen size are you thinking of, by the way, for your laptop? 12 or 13. Okay. So by and large, we can assume that the software can kind of do its thing. Unless you were thinking, is it always iOS? Yeah, no, this is another piece of this, which is I'm going to put it out there since we're dreaming here. That since you're going to be able to write apps next year that run on iOS and run on the Mac.

And on the Mac, they get a menu bar and stuff like that. I want to at least consider the option that when I attach that keyboard and trackpad, that the interface changes to say, oh, you've got a keyboard and a trackpad. I can do more stuff. I can show a menu bar. You know, I can...

Or whether it's a mac menu bar or something turn into a mac but it becomes more mac like more mac like because the apps could run the way they would look perhaps on a mac laptop in that scenario maybe maybe not maybe it would be bad you know i i don't know but i'm intrigued by that idea that once you know, because right now in iOS, when you attach a keyboard, whether it's the smart keyboard or whether it's a Bluetooth keyboard, all that really happens is that the keyboard slides away, the on-screen keyboard. But you could do more. understanding like oh look pointing device and keyboard just got attached i can be different and change to an interface that's slightly different especially if it's already being built because that app is going to run on the ipad on the mac maybe i can get that menu bar too maybe i think that i would want a lot of similar things that you've mentioned for mine um but i'm not interested in windows i'm not interested in Windows. I'm not interested in having Windows.

I'm good with, like, you can have up to eight apps on screen at one time, and you move them around as you need them. Or, like, Mission Control kind of, you know, multiple even Windows of, like, this one's got two on it, and this one's got one on it, and I can swipe between them. Yeah, so you can go between screens, right? But I'm not interested in infinitely sizable windows of a desktop underneath like that. I'm sorry, everyone, but that just,

it feels really old to me now. Like when I sit at my Mac and I look at this stuff, I'm like, this looks like old stuff. It looks like legacy stuff. And I know this upsets so many people, but I'm so much in the iOS mindset these days of like how I like my devices to be that I look at Windows and it's just like everything's

kind of the wrong size and it's all overlapping each other in awkward ways. I like my system to do it for me. I don't really like the way that macOS implements it. It doesn't feel right to me. I like the way it feels on iOS because I move it all with my hands. There's just a tactileness to it that I like.

So if i was going to have this this 28 inch screen i would like to be able to have like eight apps on it at one time and can move them all around as i need to yeah i i kind of agree with that that it will be not like free floating windows so much as maybe like tiled different kind of tile preferences and on a big on a big screen maybe you say look i want this you know full screen or i want uh this with a thing on the side or, you know, a couple things on the sides and one that floats in like slide over something similar. That would presumably also get you some of the things I know you and Gray have talked about, which I fully endorse, which is the idea of like, you know, having gestures or keyboard shortcuts that will let you set multitasking. So you could very quickly say, take this app and put it over on the left and have it just do that

instead of having to click on or tap on an item in the dock and drag it and put it in. Still holding out for that with iOS 13. Next time there's actually iPad again. Right, a little more keyboard. Well, I feel like, yeah, I feel like when they have,

take the iPad more seriously, if they also are taking the keyboard uses of the iPad more seriously, that would be the perfect time to do it. So maybe it'll happen. Maybe it'll happen then. But yeah, even though I'm an old school windowing arbitrarily, any size, any place kind of person, I have a hard time imagining that a future iOS with a big screen would just kind of give up and go back to running mac windows like i just don't see them doing that all right so there you go johnny there's two okay two great devices for you to make you know we just sorted out the next 20 years or something so

you go for it you can take those ones for free uh maybe just send us one you know once you make it that'd be great maybe we're getting advanced advance a little bit, that'd be lovely if you'd like to find our show notes for this week, you can head on over to relay.fm slash upgrade slash 204 or check them out in your podcast app of choice if you've enjoyed the show

maybe you would enjoy some of our other shows both me and Jason host many, many podcasts here at Relay.fm go to relay.fm slash shows and you can find more of what we do. There's lots of great content there for you to check out. You can find Jason online at sixcolors.com and he is at JSNELL, J-S-N-E-L-L, on Twitter. Should people follow the Six Colors Live account for the earnings? Are you going to do that?

Yes, we'll do that in some form tomorrow, Tuesday. Sorry, I should say, because not everybody listens on Monday. So if you, it is not yet Tuesday afternoon Pacific, you can follow Six Colors events and, or just go and there'll be a Twitter embed on sixcolors.com. Great. So you can check those out there because you've got to, you know, when this is Tim, we want to see when that's happening.

That's how you'll find out that it's Tim, because Jason and Dan will tell you. You can find me on Twitter. I am at imyke, I-M-Y-K-E. Thanks so much to Green Chef, Pingdom and Smile for their support of this show.

But most of all, thank you for listening. Oh, Ask Upgrade, we'll be back next week. Hasht oh Ask Upgrade we back next week hashtag Ask Upgrade if you have any questions you'd like us to answer if you want to open the show hashtag Snell Talk the summer of fun rolls on everyone until next time

say goodbye Jason Snell goodbye everybody Thank you.