Upgrade - 236: Whatever Keyboard Pleases Me

Episode Date: March 11, 2019

Disney opens the vault for its streaming service, we rank our own MacBook Hierarchy of Needs, and Jason goes against Myke's advice and records some podcasts using only an iPad.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 236 today's show is brought to you by express vpn pingdom and lunar display i'm mike relay fm and i'm joined by jason six colors hi jason six colors it's great to be here mike podcasters we only we got this one chance uh i think we're the first tech show in a little bubble to publish after tim apple the tim apple situation uh so even though it's old news we get to do it and for the sake of people listening far into the future um president trump called tim cook tim apple during a i think you mean i think you mean donald america donald america during a american workforce policy advisory board meeting whatever the frick that means uh called him tim apple there's a video i'll put a link to a verge article and just in the best possible thing that could have happened,

could have come out of this, Tim Cook changed his Twitter name to Tim and the Apple logo. I love so much that Tim Cook is trolling the president for like, I don't even really know what the gain is for that, but I like very much that he's doing it. I think it's hilarious.

Yep. Yep, absolutely. John Oliver did a bit on his show on Sunday night that was suggesting, there was a Photoshop of young Tim Apple taking the company over from his father who founded it, you know, Bob Apple or whatever. And it's, oh, it's a family company.

I don't know how, you know, I think Donald Trump thinks of company names as equivalent of family names, right? Because that's how his company works. Yes. But Tim Apple, the Apple's long giants in the technology world, the Apple family. His sister Fiona chose to go into music. A little weird, but, you know, whatever. And he is the son of the two Steve Apples, as we

all know. I don't even know how that works, but yes. That's it. Aloha. Steve Apples. They used to own a garage together. It's time we finish this and move into Hashtag Snail Talk, and we have a great question this week from Brent, who asks, Jason, when you fly, do you prefer window or

aisle, front, middle, or back of the plane, or any other preferences for the seat that you occupy um i think this is a great question mostly because i actually have opinions yep i was just making some plane reservations and i realized i so first off i always prefer the window and the reason for that is I know that the aisle gives you access to the aisle and to the bathroom without having to make your seat mates get up and all of that. Problem I have is my shoulders are wide enough that if I sit on the aisle, big beverage carts will slam into my shoulders occasionally.

I just, it, it, that it happens. Either that or. I just, it happens. I get on the knee. My knees are the problem. Oh, interesting. For me, it's my shoulders. And if not that, then I'm repeatedly sort of touched on the shoulder by a flight attendant and told to move inward

in order to avoid slamming, which is nice, but it's not the best. I just don't like it. Whereas at the window, I can just be at the window and there's a little space between me and the window and it's great. And in terms of where, like in the plane, it kind of doesn't matter. I will sit as far forward as I can and get a window. But that's about it. These days, the way airplane seat reservations work, they start to charge you. I just bought some seats on a, I think, United flight to my niece's high school graduation in May. And I usually don't fly United, but I i did on this and it was hilarious because

not only is do they have their economy basic economy where you can't pick a seat at all but the regular economy fair uh blocks out a bunch of seats that are in the front half of the plane and they want you to pay a little bit extra for like a better seat which i thought it's not literally it's not any better except for the fact that it's closer to the front. And I'm not interested in that. So I'm not going to support that kind of business model. So I picked one further back. But yeah, I love the window. I think more on the right side of the plane too. I was just, when I was picking those seats, I realized that I was gravitating toward the right side of the plane. I don't know why. I don't have any reason for that. Mike, where do you sit?

So I have a few different considerations than you and a few different perks as well. I fly transatlantic the majority of the time. So I have status with British Airways. So I can always choose my seat whenever I want, right? That's one of the perks that I get. I don't have to pay for it and I don't have to wait. I can choose it whenever I want. And because I'm mostly flying transatlantic,

I'm very typically in situations where people will be sleeping. So I always choose a seat, which means that if I am sleeping, somebody doesn't have to bother me. So I go for aisle seats in the middles if I'm in the 2-3-2 type thing because then the other person can just move like the other way i always try and make sure like i'm in the middle

of the plane at an aisle so people don't need to climb over me or wake me up if they want to get out of their seat and the same that if i want to get up i don't have to move someone right so don't sit in the middle they was sit on an aisle it's kind of same reasons there's a different considerations when you're flying 9 10 12 hours at a time right like you're starting to think about the sleep in and then how that affects things so that's typically what i do i'm really careful window seats because they trap me in yeah i don't like i don't like being trapped but, but I like getting rammed with a big heavy cart. Yeah, yeah.

I had one on a knee on my last flight to San Jose. Woke me up. That was real bad. It was real bad. Yeah, I just had a flight not too long ago where I ended up for, I think because the flight was crowded, I ended up on the aisle.

And I was like, oh, well, the aisle, we'll do the aisle. The aisle's fine. First thing you know, getting slammed with a food cart or something. And I thought like, oh, well, the aisle, we'll do the aisle. The aisle's fine. First thing you know, getting slammed with a food cart or something. And I thought, oh yeah, I can't. I just, it was a reminder like, this is why I don't do this.

I can't do this. So that's okay. I'll wave to you from over at the window. So thank you so much to Brent for sending in that hashtag Snell Talk question. If you would like to submit a question for the show, just send out a tweet with the hashtag Snell talk, and it may be given in consideration for a future episode. People had stuff to say about the TV license. Yeah, you know,

we had, we said a lot of controversial things I thought last week, and I was actually surprised we didn't get more angry emails, but we did get a few tweets about the TV license, mostly saying, Oh, something you, I think you said, which is, Oh,

they do have this thing where you can, you can, you know, basically say, I never want a TV license. I certify that I never watch live TV or use, you know, iPlayer or whatever of those things,

please just stop bugging me. And that you could do that and that they had done that and that they wouldn't be bothered too much, except then somebody else posted a bunch of pictures of all these threatening billboards. Yeah, there are a bunch of billboards. This came from Colin. One is, our database lists every home without a TV license,

just so you know. Get one or get done, which done which was and that was in the tube yeah or our database is notified when a new tv is purchased there's nowhere to hide now i think some of these ads are maybe a little older but this is the point that i'm trying to get at the way that they tone everything makes me feel like it's just going to be more hassle than it's worth and i know people so i know friends who have tried to do this thing with a tv license and they keep getting letters from the tv licensing people and i will say jason net because i was following up with people the majority of people that told

me all i had to do is not pay it were people that didn't even live in the united kingdom like i'm super happy that people know that this is a thing you can do but trust me try and do it right like it's way to correct the english guy yeah about things that happen in england people who don't live this is it is not as easy as you think to opt out of the tv license like it really just isn't um and even when you do apparently they still do like bug you and then they've also got the signs up that are threatening and yeah yeah yeah but anyway i i have to say i'm kind of relieved that uh that not disappointed really even though i kind of brought on myself that uh people weren't quite as upset by some of our pronouncements i think at this point

we scared away most of the people uh who who can't get around to ios way of thinking you know that's good maybe i figured there would be a real like uh face id or touch id partisan would uh would pop in or there'd be somebody who'd be really angry about ios apps on the mac and all that but you're right perhaps we've uh also um you know people who think that you should never click the skip intro button on netflix we had all of those hot button issues but uh it was not that big a deal, so that's fine. We've scared those people away. They can't take us anymore. No. I wanted to just give a little bit of follow-up for tracking

the changes coming to the potential entry-level iPad line, so the regular iPads. Mac Otakara is reporting that the screen size of the next standard iPad is not yet finalized. They are saying that they've heard from some suppliers who are stating it will be 10.2 inches,

and some are saying it will be 9.7. The way that I read this rumor, Jason, is not that it's not decided, it's that there will still be two of them. There will be a new version, and then there will be an old version, which is cheaper. That's what I think is going to happen. You think they'll just keep the sixth generation around

and then also release a a seventh generation yeah or you know at least keep the sixth generation in education and right right that they're still making the sixth generation plus they're going to make a new seventh generation and that's what i think i think it would be super strange that like there are suppliers that think that there are orders coming but they're still debating it like everything we know about apple is like they don't leave it this is, but they're still debating it. Like everything we know about Apple is like they don't leave it. This is not like they're just still trying to work it out.

This is a product that is apparently coming sooner rather than later. This iPad will also reportedly keep Touch ID and the headphone jack. So basically like the current ones that are in this generation. I don't think this is much of a surprise. I don't know if I'd necessarily

spend too much time thinking about Touch ID versus Face ID, generation i don't think this is much of a surprise i don't know so i'd necessarily spent too much time thinking about touch id versus face id but i'm not surprised that face id wouldn't make its way into this line right you got to differentiate between the high end and the low end somehow and that's a perfectly reasonable way to do it yep and uh and as our friend zach in the chat room points out uh not finalized when it's supposed to be shipping is kind of just patently ridiculous which is why i think your theory which is there must be they must actually be planning on continuing to manufacture um the old size as well as the new size is i think the only explanation if these reports are true because there's no way that they're like making supply

deals and then they're like i don't know we're not sure like we want to check the prices like it seems super weird guys get more 10.2 screens in there now we just decided like that's not going to happen no all right so let's move into upstream where we talk about the happenings in streaming media we can say goodbye to the disney vault uh ceo bob eiger told shareholders that disney plus at some point fairly soon after launch will carry films that traditionally have been kept in a vault and brought out basically every few years. This is in a report from The Verge from a shareholder meeting. Jason, this is good news, right? Yeah, this is, I always, Disney decided that they would create this artificial scarcity with their films, which as a parent, let me tell you, it's the worst it's the worst now what

you do get is you get like grandparents or even potential grandparents buying i knew somebody who literally bought every single disney vhs release because they wanted to get everything while it was out of the vault so that when their child had children and this was a you know somebody in their 20s basically when their their 20 something child had children that they this was somebody in their 20s, basically, when their 20-something child had children, that grandma would be able to provide a video library of every Disney movie. And there was a whole buying strategy and hoarding these movies. Of course, in that case, you know what happened, which is by the time the kid was ready to watch Disney movies, everybody had moved on to DVDs. And she had all these VHS tapes. Like,

that's not so good. But it's infuriating because when I was... My daughter got really into Sleeping Beauty when she was little and the Sleeping Beauty was in the vault. And I'll just say it. You know what I did? I found a friend who had Sleeping Beauty on DVD and I made a copy of it. I ripped the DVD and made a copy of it because my daughter wanted to watch Sleeping Beauty. It was not available for purchase anywhere. And it was infuriating. Now, like three years later, they came out with a Blu-ray and I bought the Blu-ray. I'm not sure we ever watched the Blu-ray of it, but I bought it sort of because i had copied somebody's thing but

it's but it's but it's stupid like so um when they announced they were doing the service this was immediately what i thought which was well this is the answer to the disney vault is instead of the disney vault as a strategy to get people to hoard uh disney movies um and create this artificial demand for them by withholding them for no reason other than to withhold them. That instead it becomes, Disney Vault becomes an inducement to subscribe to Disney Plus because all of the movies, the only place that you can stream those movies are on Disney Plus. And I think that's really smart. of the movies the only place that you can uh stream those movies are on disney plus and i think that's really smart i i wonder um tangentially there are some other kind of treasure troves of movies that are not available on streaming that i wonder if somebody will back up a truck full of money to let's say uh studio ghibli where um you know all the hayo miyazaki movies are not

available on streaming and i think that's because miyazaki yeah i know right the Hayao Miyazaki movies are not available on streaming. And I think that's because Miyazaki, yeah, I know, right? That's because Miyazaki, I think, has just basically refused, which is really annoying, to make them digitally available in any way. You can't even buy them digitally. You have to get the discs. But that would be another example where there's a little treasure trove that maybe at some point somebody will spend and use as a motivator. But the Disney Vault, you know, they own it. They've've got all those movies they've been hoarding them all this time

and so i think it's a brilliant strategy because you're basically saying hey you're a parent you love disney movies you want to show them to your kids pay for disney plus and you get all of them like yeah that yep that makes sense that works works. And we mentioned this before, but as well, like Captain Marvel, which is out now and smashing records left and right, that will be the first Disney Plus exclusive as well, which is super interesting. It's like, if you want to get it digitally

in probably in 4K, I bet they'll still sell it on iTunes, but only in 1080. If you want it on 4K, that's where you want it. It's only going to stream on Disney Plus. I think that there is a question about the vault idea that it remains to be seen where disney's movies um end up in the long run like will they be available i assume they'll continue to be available on like blu-ray and 4k and and probably a la carte on

other services but it's possible that they will withhold some of those too um in order to create a vault like kind of thing where it's like well you can't get it anywhere else that one right now but you can get it on disney plus yeah it's like i don't think any of the most recent um marvel movies are in 4K to buy digitally. Like, not on iTunes. You can just get them in 1080. Yeah, because I have some 4K Disney stuff, but I think it's 4K on other platforms and not on iTunes. And it syncs over as a 1080.

Yeah, like Avengers Infinity War, it's just in HD. That's it. It's not in 4K. It's not in HDR. They's it yeah that's not in it's not in 4k it's not in hdr like you they've done this for a while now like the kind of the marvel like the actual marvel marvel movies right like there are marvel related movies right like the spider-man movies you can get in 4k because that's released by sony yeah that's right from disney they've just not been doing it which it's uh yes so it is very frustrating so that is a question like

are there there are other vault like strategies that they can do that are not quite the same um and uh that's interesting i don't know if we've heard if disney plus is going to do 4k hdr i would assume it does although probably they'll do like netflix and say you can pay more yeah and get the 4k hdr version and all of that as as part of it too it'll be it'll be interesting to see how they how they do it but this is a huge asset for them so it's not surprising that they would deploy it because they want people to pay for this thing and that's a great motivator like every disney movie including stuff that's been out of circulation maybe not every because they've got some that they don't want anyone to see anymore because of the racism but uh mostly so yeah encyclopedia netflixia so this is this is a great title

over on six colors because of a quote from one of media's robert greenblatt so the guy in charge netflix doesn't have a brand it's just a place that you go to get anything it's like encyclopedia britannica that's a great business model when you're trying to reach as many people on the planet as you can. Now, a lot of articles that I've seen about this quote from Greenblatt frame this as him throwing shade at Netflix and being like, oh, Netflix is just a place where you go to get anything. They don't do anything specific. They're just a bunch of stuff. But you wrote something on Six Colors, which seemed a little bit more in defense of this quote yeah i think a lot of people love to point and laugh at clueless uh executives who don't

understand about uh technology and all of that and i think i think they totally misread what greenblatt was saying here which is uh something that we've talked about before on i've written about it before and it's the idea so greenblatt's the new guy in charge which is why the as we said last week the hbo guy left and and you know they're they're making a bunch of changes as at&t takes over warner media um but his point here it's actually related to what we've talked about about apple and about apple strategy and and the reputation it's gotten in certain circles, that New York Post article we talked about last week is directly applicable, which is people who are kind of bent

out of shape because Apple, who is spending billions of dollars on this content, is trying to set some standards for what they want for their content, right? Like the don't be so mean thing is the idea of like, when we look at apple's video stuff what is that what's the personality of that it needs to have a personality it ideally any of these services need to have a personality they need to say like here's the kind of vibe you're going to get from this it's family friendly like disney for example is not going to do almost certainly marvel stuff on disney plus that is uh with the content of the Netflix shows, right? Which was basically rated R-level.

I don't think Disney+, is going to have any rated R-level content on it, right? Because it's the Disney brand. That stuff will go on Hulu. It won't go on Disney+, I think, almost certainly. So what's Apple's personality? And they seem to be, you know, don't be so mean, a little more positive. One of we had that story about like, want to be able to show it on Apple stores. So, so, you know, network TV level, maybe in terms of standards and practices, and maybe a little

more positive, not not they that report about like not liking uh dark uh techno criticism like you know black mirror stuff um and that's their prerogative they have the money um i think there's marketing value in it too because you you need your product to mean something like what do i get when i sign up for out you get these kinds of shows it's helpful like h HBO has a perspective. It is not necessarily as simple as it's for families, but HBO has a, you know, there's a feel for like what an HBO show is. And I think the more feel that you have,

the more clear your brand is, the better. And Warner Media and its streaming service is an empty box without a label on it, right? Like, what is that? It's a corporation. It's like Warner Brothers. We've heard about that and Looney Tunes. And, you know, the people have some associations with Warner Brothers and Warner in general from the old days.

But, like, what is the Warner Media streaming service? What does it mean? And I think that's what Greenblatt's saying here is, first off, he's like, don't talk about us compared to Netflix because Netflix is everywhere. Like, does the air have a brand? Like, you know, what he's really saying here is like the Encyclopedia Britannica, Netflix buys all kinds of content. And other than maybe Amazon, I don't think there's anybody out there who is currently

at a point where they could be that. They can say, our streaming service is for everybody. And we spend $15 billion a year. Maybe they'll dream of ending up there. But right now, that's what Netflix does. They are making things around the world. They're making things for kids. They're making things that are super hard edge and only for adults. Netflix is releasing multiple things every week. So when I look at what Greenblatt says here, I'm thinking what he's saying is, Netflix doesn't have, when he says it doesn't have a brand, he doesn't mean nobody knows who Netflix is. He's saying Netflix doesn't stand for a narrow focused thing that's trying to target an audience. Netflix is for everyone. That's been their strategy. And that's why they're so dominant.

Netflix is this enormous cultural force. And I think he's also saying, please don't compare us to Netflix because we don't have that budget. We're not going to spend that money. Instead, we're going to try to create our own brand that is going to reach a certain audience that we're targeting with content that we think they will like, that will resonate with them. And that's what we're doing. And I think that's what he's saying here. I think he's very specifically saying, we are going to come up with a personality and we're going to try to reach these people. And we can't be Netflix. And it allows when they launch this thing and people are like, well, let's compare them to Netflix. He's already sown the seeds here of, no, no, no, you can't compare

us to Netflix because they're like the encyclopedia. They are A to Z everything. And we aren't that. We're not trying to be that. And the fact is nobody other than, like I said, maybe Amazon with Prime Video. Nobody's in a position to even pretend to try to do what Netflix is doing. And finally today, MacRumors is reporting that Apple and Roku are currently finalizing negotiations to add AirPlay 2 support to their devices via way of a software update. There it is. There it is. We were talking about this when they made those first CES announcements, right? Like, gotta be that other shoe to drop.

Looks like it's going to happen, according to these reports, AirPlay 2 in Roku tvs like like mine and also in uh roku streaming boxes and what this does is it gets airplay which means it gets apple's tv service and all of apple's video content on to any tv for what 20 bucks 30 bucks for the the lowest end of the roku boxes assuming that they are going to be covered by this which we'll have to see i bought my mom a roku a little roku streaming i would call it a stick but it's actually more like a it looks like one of those little infrared receivers except it's a whole roku thing for 30 for 30, $29 at Walmart when I was visiting her. And it's basically invisible. And that is the thing that Apple needs to have in the market so that they have access

to all these TVs for relatively cheap for people to watch their streaming service. And I think the beauty of this is it shows they're more concerned about services revenue than hardware revenue. And it actually frees them to not make cheap-ish Apple TV if they don't want to because they don't need to. Like Apple TV has all these other features. And if all you want to do is beam your Apple TV shows from your iPhone to your TV, you can just buy a Roku thing for $30 and it'll be fine. phone to your tv you can just buy a roku thing for 30 bucks and it'll be fine and as i've said a million times but this just for me is like if it's coming on roku it's going to be on the fire tv stick too probably i mean apple and amazon have had seem to have resolved many of their

differences and they're they're tech giants and they go back and forth about it whereas roku is all is is not a a tech giant and therefore is roku really would love to support whatever apple is doing i'm pretty sure right it increases the value of their product but i would be shocked uh yeah i would be i would be surprised anyway if if um apple and amazon didn't ultimately make a similar deal yeah it's valuable to roku because they have the possibility of creating the cheapest airplay tube box that you can get. That's their selling point there. And then you're in Roku's ecosystem on the TV when you're there. Which is valuable for them.

And that is, and that gives them a leg up on Amazon, which is why I think Amazon, for similar reasons, will want to be able to say that they integrate apple's stuff yeah because you if you're amazon you don't want apple to king make roku right and airplay 2 um seems like the best way forward because then it gets away from all of those like uh problems that are a problem on the apple tv for amazon which is like purchases on device and stuff like that. If you just do the AirPlay 2 stuff, like you don't have to worry about any e-commerce,

any logins, any stuff like that, which is the point of contention between Apple and Amazon is like the cut that Apple wants to take of every purchase on their devices. And AirPlay 2 as the method here is beneficial to Apple's core business because it means you have to have an iOS device. You can't just sign up for Apple TV and use it with another device,

use it just on whatever stick. You have to be able to beam it from something, which is what they ultimately want everybody to have, which is an iPhone. So there's the other benefit. Will this sell iPhones? Probably not. But does it fit with Apple's core business? Yeah, it does.

So I would be surprised. I mean, we're expecting an Apple event here in a couple of weeks, depending on how the news goes over the next few days. Maybe next week is a draft, which will be one of the weirdest, most wonderful drafts of all time. So I'm very excited for that.

So maybe Roku finds its way into the draft. So, because I can imagine a slide where Apple says, hey, this is all these sticks we're working with. All these partners. All the great partners. There's got to be that, right? Well, we'll draft it, but there's got to be a slide that says where this is available, where this is going to be available.

And it's going to be all the Apple devices and all our partners. Yep. So we'll see all right today's episode is brought to you in part by express vpn cybercrime is something that we think happens to other people i know that's how i think like why would people want my data well the bad news is stealing data from people like me and you using public wi-fi is one of the simplest ways for hackers to make money if you you leave your internet connection unencrypted, your passwords and credit card numbers could be vulnerable. But there's something that you can do to protect yourself from cyber criminals, and that is using ExpressVPN. ExpressVPN works by securing and anonymizing your internet browsing, encrypting your data, and hiding your public IP address with easy-to-use apps that run seamlessly in the background of your device. I use ExpressVPN on my iPhone, my iPad, and my MacBook when I travel.

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The episode was titled The MacBook Hierarchy of Needs. And John Siracusa presented an interesting kind of thought process of looking at the potential next entry in the MacBook Pro line and ranking via a list of priorities, like the Maslow hierarchy of needs, right? Yep. About kind of what are the most important features and what are the ones that you must have for the laptop for that product to be a viable product for you. So you wrote about this on Six Colors and I kind of liked your take on it. And I want to kind of do this in two different ways, because we both use laptops, but not to the level that the ATP guys use their laptops. So I think our, maybe our needs will be slightly different, we'll see.

But I also wanted to pivot this a little bit into what it would take, what our hierarchy of needs are for an iOS laptop, which is the famous iBook created by Jason Snell. And so I figured that we could maybe kind of split it in two, maybe to see if there's any differences between those two things. So I was kind of broke this down into a few different lists, right?

So for a MacBook Pro considering what people want from it and also looking at the upcoming rumors I think the things that we kind of have to pick from are an increased screen size and if that's important to you ports, keyboard reliability, power so I also wondered like Intel and ARM

is that like a thing that you care about at this stage is a new design important to you care about at this stage? Is a new design important to you as a reason to buy a laptop, battery life, cellular, and maybe MagSafe? So those are the kinds of things that I was thinking about as well, looking at what you wrote on Six Colors. So for you, when it comes to a MacBook or MacBook Pro,

where does the kind of the line start to get drawn? Well, I think the thing that I found valuable in having this sort of thought experiment is the idea that there are the things that you can't change that are fundamental to the product and that they have to be at the top of the hierarchy. Right. It's a little bit like saying you need to you know you need to have food and clothing and shelter you know you need to be safe and secure um first in the hierarchy like these things foundations right that everything else needs to be built on and it speaks to the um issues that people have had with apple's laptops the last few years, because I think the keyboard is a great example. Like, only one company makes Mac laptops, obviously, it's Apple. So if you want to use MacOS, you need to buy their hardware. And at this point, other than the very, very, very old 999 MacBook Air,

they all use essentially the same keyboard, which is the keyboard that they introduced to the MacBook in 2015. And it has now spread across the entire line. And it's been modified a few times. And some people have some problems with it. And I wrote a piece like two years ago about how part of the problem that Apple is having in terms of blowback from MacBook Pro users and MacBook users in general is the fact that they're cornered. They have nowhere to run there's no alternative uh unless they leave the platform entirely right there the apple doesn't if apple made like a pro laptop and a consumer laptop and the pro laptop had a different keyboard and that's what everybody was hoping right everybody was hoping after the magic keyboard

2 came out that um that the new macbook Pros would use that keyboard and not the MacBook keyboard because the MacBook keyboard had been optimized for thinness and on a MacBook Pro, you could presumably afford a little more travel. And that didn't happen. And as a result, there's no choice. You can't say, well, if you want the different keyboard,

get our other model. It's like literally this is the only keyboard you can buy. And that's why I keep thinking like for things that are fundamental, you need to make careful decisions. Like an SD card slot is not fundamental. Like it's a nice to have, but in the end, you can buy a little dongly thing that will give you an SD card slot, right? But you can't pull the keyboard out and put in a new keyboard. You can't pull the screen off and put in a new screen. And you can't drill a hole and add a couple of ports, right? So there are parts that are integral to the laptop. And that's where you have to start. So in my mind, that's where it has

to start. It's something like a keyboard. Apple needs to make decisions about that keyboard, I think, that make it more broadly appealing because nobody's going to have an alternative. Nobody's going to have a choice of something different. If they're going to truly design one keyboard for every laptop they make, it needs to be appealing to everyone or at least inoffensive to everyone, which I think the old keyboard was. And the new keyboard, it definitely has its adherence. But I think that the challenge there is that you're making, if you make a keyboard and a certain percentage, let's say a quarter of your user base hates it, they have no recourse. Like they have nowhere to go.

And that's not good. I think that's not good if you're Apple and you're the single supplier and you're basically saying everybody who likes our operating system has to like this keyboard because this is all you're ever going to get. I think that that's not great. So, so for me, it all starts with the keyboard. I thought the ATP guys brought out a great point, which is for the pro laptops, getting to one-to-one on, so it's not a scaled display because right now the default view is scaled. And so it's not as clear. It's not ideal. Like on a pro laptop, having that display be, you know, unscaled default, I think is a good one to put on the list because you can't do it

later, right? You can't fix it later. And then all of the other stuff. I mean, I have to ask myself this question as I was listening to them and as I was writing my thing, which is, I wonder if part of why I've found traveling with an iPad and working on an iPad so attractive is that an iPad is basically a screen without a keyboard and it lets me supply whatever keyboard pleases me. And there's some truth in that, right? Because I like the bridge keyboard and the bridge keyboard. And I even like the smart keyboard folio, although not as much as I like the bridge. I've been using that a lot because the bridge keyboard for the new iPads isn't out. And, you know, I'm really missing my bridge keyboard. I'm dying for the keyboard. Yeah, right, right. But that's a difference with the iPad is that you can supply your own keyboard and MacBook and MacBook Pro users can't do that.

So I wonder about that too. So for me, that's where it all goes. I think MagSafe is one that's interesting to throw in there because while there are magnetic adapters that you can plug into a USB-C port, it's kind of hacky and, you know, or kludgy. Ideally, you know, I would love to see Apple say, you know or kludgy ideally you know i would love to see apple say you know what a magnetic connector this is essentially a usbc connector but we've we've invented this new connection type which is magnetic so it's a breakaway or something i would kind of love that

but um you know that that is a good example of something that is probably ideally integrated into the hardware and not something you can just use a an escape valve of a dongle so for me whilst i appreciate the importance of a reliable keyboard i'll ask you by the way keyboard reliability or feel or both like what is what are you basing do you have to have a good keyboard do you have to have a good keyboard? Do you have to have a reliable keyboard? What's the limit? I think the core issue here is reliability, right? Because the people cannot like the keyboard. I think you can get used to it. Everybody can get used to everything. I would, I would like them to make some different priority decisions on the, on the actual feel of the keyboard. It does feel like they, something designed, something they designed for the MacBook and then they basically forced everybody else who didn't need those constraints to also adopt it but i also

understand that like you know not everybody's a fragile flower like me who looks at that keyboard and is like i don't like it i can use it but i don't like it i would i would like to think that apple wants a keyboard that appeals to more people rather than be is usedudgingly. But I feel like the core problem they've got and that they've tried to address multiple times now is the fact that it's getting a reputation for being unreliable, that like people have stories and they tell other people about that time that their space bar stopped working and they were told to, you know, get a can of compressed air or take it into the Apple store and that's not good like i think that that is the the thing that will threaten their sales figures the most is getting a reputation

for unreliability so i will buck the trend uh the keyboard is not the most important part to me personally for a macbook pro we can talk about this later on, but I use my MacBook Pro five times a year probably, right? It's when I'm recording away from home. That's when I use a MacBook. And for me, the biggest thing that I would want to see to make me want to buy a new one

would be the reintroduction of a USB, a regular USB port because that's the thing that is most important to me. I don't use the keyboard, right? Like I just, I'm not sitting and typing on it. Like it's really, it is just a machine to allow me to get to all of the software that I need to edit and all that kind of stuff.

And I have some sticky keys. I have Marco's original MacBook Pro, the one where he first had a problem. I think it's got like a, the E key will get stuck. I have that. I bought it from him. So like this keyboard came to me with already having an issue.

It's not something that is that important to me because I'm really just using it as a, like an audio production machine and using dongles. And like, I use this like hyperdrive dongle, which only has one USB-C port because when I bought it, I think I bought it for a different machine than the one that I have. But anyway, and so it's not,

it doesn't sit exactly how I would like. It's a little bit wobbly and I don't like that. I would just like to be able to plug my audio interface in with USB and just leave it at that. That's what I just like to be able to plug my audio interface in with USB and just leave it at that. That's what I would like to be able to do. But I don't have an option to do that right now. You can just get a USB-C to USB-A cable, right? Or is it the number of ports that's the issue?

I could get one of those cables and that would be great. But also, I just think just the number of ports is an issue. It really restricts me because I also need need the sd card right so i'm still gonna need a dongle for that because if i'm recording without the laptop which happens too when i'm traveling i then need something for the sd card too so like the removal of all of the ports that came away whilst there are some fixes they're all fixes and i don't really care for them like what i want is the ports back do i think i'll get No, but that's why I'm not assuming I'm going to buy a new MacBook Pro, right? But that's where the line is drawn for me personally is to see some more, some of the

more frequently used ports come back to the line. That's what I would like. But I'm an outlier because I don't use a Mac laptop the way that most people use Mac laptops. Because I don't use a Mac laptop the way that most people use Mac laptops. I mean, the touch bar issue is here too, right? Because you get the more ports on the touch bar models. But some people are reluctant to go with the touch bar models. So that's a question going forward. I don't want that.

I don't want the cost of that for what I'm doing, right? Like, you know, it's too much and i don't need a touch bar because again i wouldn't be able to effectively use the touch bar because i wouldn't i'm not used to it my my imac doesn't have a touch bar and so i'm not gonna get in a touch bar based workflow on a laptop that i use so infrequently you know i tried using a macbook for a while like I used the MacBook for a while for this and it just it just can't deal with the pro apps very well like

it was a point where using the pro apps like Final Cut or Logic plugged in the battery would be draining so that was why I moved back to a MacBook Pro poor little MacBook that was perfect for moved back to a MacBook Pro. Poor little MacBook.

That was perfect for me, like the size and thickness and the weight and stuff. That's what I want, but it just can't handle what I need from those machines when I'm traveling, which is a shame. So, you know, I think that based upon what you want is typical to what most people want, and I'm a bit of an outlier when it comes to the MacBook.

So why don't we just go into an outlier when it comes to the MacBook. So why don't we just go into complete outlier territory? An iOS laptop. Now, what could change here? What is important to you in this mythical product? Where does the line get drawn? I'm assuming this line would be a little bit higher. There would need to be more things that it would need if we look at where iOS-based products are today to make this a compelling product.

Do you agree with that? I think, I mean, I'm struggling with the thought of, given what Apple has said about the future of iOS and macOS, I am now finding it hard to believe that this product will ever exist. That instead it's going to be a more Mac iOS like Mac laptop. Um, but you know, I, I think there are open questions there about just how iOS like they're going to make the Mac and the big questions are things like touch support. Um, would they consider making a convertible where, you know, you could flip it around and make it more tablet, you know, tablet mode and then have it be more in the laptop mode? Or would they just ever consider making a more, you know, hardened keyboard option for the iPad Pro themselves rather than just these covers? Something that's more like what Microsoft offers, where they've got some other keyboard options. I don't know. I don't know. So that's, for me, that's where I kind of run aground on the iOS laptop idea is that I'm feeling like Apple has

just basically said, if you like iOS and you want a laptop, travel forward in time a couple of years and buy a Mac laptop because it'll run all your iOS apps and also do the things that a Mac can do. And that's great. I think the truth is that my favorite thing about traveling with an iPad fundamentally is that I can use it without the keyboard when I want to, because a lot of what I do with the iPad, I don't need a keyboard. And then I attach a keyboard when I need it. And when you travel with a Mac laptop, the keyboard's always attached.

And I'm not sure that is going to change in the future, that I'm not sure Apple is ever going to let, you know, make a product that basically feels like an iPad, but is actually a laptop. But I think that that's part of it, right? So like for you, any product that Apple were to possibly make or make available for others to make in the future would need to include this convertibility factor. So for me, where I would want to draw the line at making my iPad more like a laptop is trackpad support, right? Like that's the most important

part of it for me, right? Like if we want to, if we want to continue pushing iOS to be more like a laptop, I would like to be able to use a trackpad and could embed that into a keyboard. So like that's super important. Although I am kind of coming around to your idea that like if there was ever the ability for ipads to support these things that we wouldn't want some company to come along and be like all right you've got to keep it in this case now all the time like the ability to be able to separate it is still really important and i think that drawing the line with those two things, I think really helps push iOS to be more like a laptop without making it just an iBook that runs iOS. No, I think this is actually a good point that I hadn't really thought of before, but I'll put it out there now, which is if my choice was,

you can get an iPad that acts like a laptop if you snap it into a case that makes it into a laptop or you can just use a Mac laptop at that point I just use a Mac laptop like I I I deal with the limitations of iOS because I'm less enthusiastic than than somebody like Federico about uh how because Federico is very much a, I prefer iOS kind of guy. Well, me too. I am a, I like iOS. Sure. And I like iOS and I like the Mac. I prefer what the iOS devices shapes get me. And if I have to, this is why I don't like, I haven't liked any of the case, like Logitech made a case for the iPad where you, you know, basically snap it into this thing and it becomes a MacBook Air.

And then you have to kind of snap it back out every time you want to use it as a tablet. And like, if I wanted my iPad to permanently turn into a laptop, I'd just use a real laptop at that point. Like I'd rather just use a MacBook Air or a MacBook Pro because the reason I like the iPad is because a lot of my uses are without the keyboard and i can ditch it and i have a very light little tablet to hold yeah so for me uh you know beyond a certain threshold like i'm not interested anymore so a convertible something um you know i would be great like i just i really love the fact that i can use a keyboard on my ipad when i need to and only when I need to because that makes it a much better device because I only use the keyboard.

I only have to use the keyboard some percentage of the time, and it's not a huge percentage. 5%, 10%, I don't know. Yeah, I agree with you there because it's like the smart keyboard, I keep it on because it's fine. There's the folio. I can just flip it around. It's fine there's the folio i could flip it around it's fine but when i get back into the bridge lifestyle which hopefully will be sometime in the next few months when i'm i i would and did take my ipad out of the bridge keyboard quite a lot because that's too much at that point like a fixed thing which i can't really do anything with that adds weight and thickness it's like no i

don't i don't want this on all the time and the ability to just be able to take it out and put it back on again was really good it's one of my favorite things about that but that is i think super important when thinking about ios as a laptop it's like or ipads as a laptop is not losing inherently what makes an ipad an ipad like saying like oh well you know it's like an ipad but we've just fixed it into this screen now, like into this case, and that's just how it is. That's not so fun. It loses something. And being able to still pop it out and do what you need to do and then pop it back in and it's back to being more of a traditional laptop form factor is a little bit more kind of enticing

than the idea of just completely changing what that form factor is all about. So there you go. The iPad iOS laptop hierarchy of needs. We'll go with that. Thanks, John. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by our friends over at Luna Display, the makers

of the hardware solution that turns your iPad into a wireless display for your Mac. This means you have a second display that's super portable with basically zero lag and stunning image quality. So talking about iOS and the Mac and coming together and moving apart, I was having some fun over the weekend working on a little project in Pixelmator. And I use Pixelmator on iOS a bunch. But there were some tools and also some font-based

stuff that just wasn't working for me on iOS because basically if the font you're trying to use is not already pre-installed on iOS, it can get real weird even if you try and install it with one of the apps in the store stuff. So what did I do? I opened Luna Display, which is I have my Luna Display plugged into my Mac Mini. Then I could use Luna Display from the Mac on my iPad using the Apple Pencil, and it works flawlessly. It's super smooth. It looks fantastic. I can zoom in, zoom out, and I feel like I'm in complete control.

I'm not feeling like I'm in this weird hybrid mode. It's using the Apple Pencil and the keyboard and my fingers. It basically is making my iPad a touch screen Mac, basically. It's wonderful. It's like a complete extension to my Mac. This is what call the Luna Display, and I completely agree. And I was able to get what I needed done by using Pixelmator on my Mac instead of on iOS. I love Luna Display because it's enabling me to be able to do these things without then needing to go and turn on a Mac and all that kind of stuff. And I can just be wherever I am,

and it's not breaking my workflow. But this isn't all that Luna Display is for. It can very simply be used as just an external display, which is wonderful. So maybe when you're traveling, even if you don't have a Wi-Fi connection available, you can just plug in Luna Display, and then you can plug in your iPad and your Mac over USB and then right there you have extra screen real estate at your disposal. The all new liquid video engine added to Luna Display brings significantly reduced latency

and an even faster screen refresh rate. Listeners of this show can get an exclusive 10% discount on Luna Display. Just go to L-U-N-A D-I-S-P-L-a-y.com and enter the promo code upgrade at checkout that is lunardisplay.com and the promo code upgrade at checkout to get your 10 off go there right now and upgrade your setup you're gonna love it trust me on this one

our thanks to lunar display for their support of this show and all of relay fm all right so let's let's talk about podcasting on ios is oh is this an intervention mike are you intervening against me no no i'm not but i do want to kind of state state my case on this uh whole little thing because you wrote an article a few weeks ago on Six Colors about your current setup for podcasting with an iPad Pro, which got Federico pretty excited. And Federico Vittici has now kind of bought some of this hardware so he could replicate it himself for various reasons. Federico mostly because he spends some time in the summer

at a different location to his home and would prefer not to have to take his Mac with him. So he's been doing some experiments as well, which has brought him kind of to the similar place that you have, because basically he's using what you didn't tell him to do, but he took it as you were telling him to do in the post. So I want to get to this a little bit. But before we get to kind of my feelings on this, I want to talk about your

approach. So kind of a couple of things. Why do you do this? Under what circumstances do you do this? And what are you using right now to make podcasting on iOS work for you? So here, the goal is, the goal is, okay, I'm going to see my mom. And then I'm going to LA. I'm on this trip for about a week and I've got to do podcasts while I'm gone. I've got like three podcasts at least that I have to do. And I'm thinking, can I do this with just my iPad? Cause normally I would just travel with my iPad, but there's this question, like, can I do this with just my iPad or do I need to bring my MacBook Air which I was kind of resolved to just bring my MacBook Air along and literally only use it to record podcasts because I'm going to bring my iPad along and I'm going to use it because that's

my primary thing and I would even write on it because it's got the nice screen and I've got a keyboard and it's fine but I thought I might need to bring my old MacBook Air with me just for the podcast stuff because it's got audio hijack and it's got, you know, call recorder and all of those things on it. And then I thought, okay, can I figure out a way to do this without that? Because that would be, uh, I wouldn't need to bring the laptop. It is shaped like a laptop. It's got to fit in a bag. I got to take it out at security. I got to do all these things. And my question was like, is there something I can do that will not require me to bring all sorts of, you know, extra hardware at which point I should just bring the laptop. And I managed to get it to work. And what I did was add one box. I brought my USB interface that I use to record,

which weighs, you know, less than a pound. And that's it. Like I brought one extra box. And is inherently easier to pack than a laptop is. Yes. Yeah. Because it's not quite a cube, but it is a little rectangular thingy.

It's easy to pack, throw it in a bag or carry on or whatever. And it's powered by a USB plug. So I don't have to bring like my MacBook Air is an older one. So I have to bring its MagSafe power adapter because that's the only way it charges. I'll also throw out there that my daughter travels with a laptop. But my mom doesn't have a laptop anymore she just has an ipad so i don't even have that like emergency safety net that i sometimes do when i travel where it's like well at least there's a mac around if i need it like nope there's not gonna be a mac around when i'm in the desert there's no max um so the desert of max just no no max in the desert yes um that's true good point good point so um what i figured out

is that i could add one box and i could do this because the goal here is i want to be able to when i'm doing a podcast i want to be able to speak into a microphone and hear my own voice returned to my ears because that's very important in terms of did i get the volume right am i popping my peas all of those sorts of things and i want to hear you right or whoever is on the other end of the podcast i need to hear both because i need to hear what you're saying otherwise this is just a a one i mean it's a very bad podcast if we can't hear each other and also i want to hear you through your podcasting microphone so that's that's another piece of it right so so um i want to hear both i want to hear

both i want to send you the my high quality microphone and not some sort of like laptop microphone or ipad microphone or earbud microphone i want you to get the one i'm talking into because that's going to make me sound the clearest and then number three is i need to be able to record my voice um and that's important because then i need to send you the file or whoever, you know, I need to have a file of my voice at full quality. And so what I ended up doing was using the Zoom voice recorder, plugging my microphone into that. And I realized that it's got, it's got an, you know, an out port, a line out plug that I could plug into my USB interface. And then I could plug that into my iPad and the iPad pro with USB-C, it works fine. And at that point, you're hearing my voice

come through via USB as if it was plugged into my microphone. It's just that it's not, it's plugged into my voice recorder that's plugged into my microphone. And by adding that additional layer, because unfortunately, the Zoom won't run as an audio interface and record onto an SD card. So if it could do both, I would only need it, but it can't do both. And my goal here was not to buy new hardware. I was just using existing hardware and cables that I already owned because I was trying to say, my goal for myself was, without buying anything,

can I make this work? And I could with existing hardware. As far as I know, there is nothing that you even can buy. So there are products by Sound Devices, the company that makes the USB Pre-2 that you're using, called the Mix Pre-Series.

And they record simultaneously onto a SD card whilst also outputting over USB but they do not work with iOS. Yeah I have heard mixed responses some people have gotten them to work with iOS some people have not I you know that's not great right like mixed responses. Stephen contacted Sound Dev they sound and they said they have absolutely no plans to support this officially so if it does work i wouldn't rely on it because it could break um at any point who knows but so i mean and it is worth noting because it does when you look at the image it looks like you have a lot of stuff on your desk but honestly it's one more box than one more box you're currently using so exactly like you know, like for the typical setup, it's not that much.

Now, so this is kind of how it works. The problem is when you get into, or the trouble points is twofold. One, no software backup, right, of audio recording. And two, the file transfers. So the software backup thing thing there's kind of nothing you can do about that that's an ios thing we'll get to that in a minute but the file transfers what are you doing for that because you end up with files on an sd card right yeah and it's the same thing i've talked about it before um kingston makes a little box that's a little wi-fi thing

with an sd card slot and a usb plug on it and basically they have an app that runs on iOS. And if you attach a hard drive or plug in an SD card to that little box, it's a wifi box. So you connect to it via wifi. It's its own little base station. You open their app and it shows you all the files of the, whatever device is attached, including the SD card. And then you just copy them over, which is, it's silly, but that is the most effective way I've found to transfer things off of an SD card that aren't videos or photos, which will be transferred natively, but other file formats aren't seen by any, if you attach an SD card directly via an adapter to an iPad Pro. So instead you use this third-party app and it transfers the files over fairly fast

and then I get about editing in Fairlight, which I did. I did an episode of Download where I collected all the files and I was going to the airport so I had to do it in about half an hour and I did it. It was fine. And Federico, he bought a Western digital thing called the My Passport Wireless Pro and does the same thing. But he can use it with an app that he uses called, I think, File Explorer. So it actually shows up in files for him over a network, which is kind of cool. Oh, that's nice.

Yeah, so Federico's been playing around with this too. He even surprised me on an episode of Remaster by using all this gear. Surprise! remaster by using all this gear surprise and amongst our friends i am i am considered to be a curmudgeon on this point but i have i have feelings about it which is why i think that this is not a good option if it is what you are considering to be the only way you're going to record. So to try and break that down a little bit, I think that this option is risky because you can only get one recording output, right?

You are just recording to the SD card. And when we're on our Macs, again, whilst it's only software, I'm always recording in two places because things can die. So having two recordings going at the same time whilst both in software is great and there is no way to do this on iOS right now because of the way the audio is handled on iOS so my feeling that because of the

I think there is an additional level of complexity that comes with this really you were able to work this out because you really understand how this goes and it took you some time as well to get it kind of to the to the place this is not the first iteration of this setup that you've had sure but it's the first one that actually replicated my experience as a podcaster yeah yeah uh which is a which was a nice a nice point i mean like it took you even some time as somebody who does understand this stuff to kind of get to the point where you were like, okay, I found the setup, right? Yeah. And with all of these things, you know, whenever you say only an iPad,

what it really means is only an iPad and all the boxes that you need to attach in order to make this work, right? There's no only here. The ideal would be that I would be able to take my microphone and either through an interface or if it's a usb microphone directly plug it into my my ipad pro and do a podcast and have all of the recording things happen on the ipad like they do on a mac and that's not possible no and that that is what makes me kind of like uncomfortable like all traveling setups include risks right because like when i travel with a macbook pro and a zoom recorder things can go wrong because i don't use it enough i'm using dongles right like but i can still use multiple apps and i'm still like pretty convinced that what you are hearing from me is

going all through the software so like what you are hearing as long as i've set things up correctly which i do know how to do right in software like you're going to hear me correctly so i just feel like if you're traveling or there are extenuating circumstances that prevent you from using a regular setup this is fine because all traveling setups come with potential pitfalls but i think as your only setup this is not how you should be recording podcasts like you're adding too many potential risk points in um and it's just not at the moment set up to be a permanent solution like the mac is the best place for this stuff right now in my opinion but if you have to use it fine but i i don't think that this is the right thing for always right now that is my kind of feeling on this

yeah i uh i i think i think one of the reasons i do this is because i don't want to travel with the laptop if i can help but one of the reasons i do this is also to explore the current state of the art and just remind myself of all the places where ios as everybody who has been using an ipad pro since they were announced has said, where iOS fails us. And this is a great example of that, where in so many ways, iOS is just not capable of doing all these things that we in our particular niche have come to rely on. And I'm sure other people in other niches can say similar things and other people in still other niches can say completely different things like, oh, no, it's all resolved now.

But on the podcasting side, it's not resolved because of the way iOS handles sound and access to the microphone and access to recording via an app and all of those things. And as a result, you're left with money on a new approach with lots of boxes. But the net result was that my bags were lighter because I did this than they would have been if I had brought my MacBook Air and its power adapter. But you're right. You lose some of your backup. I would say, actually, one of my big fears was we record these podcasts, and especially with guests who are not as established as we are, people who don't have all the stuff. Sometimes their recordings fail. Sometimes they record the wrong microphone or they press the wrong button. recordings fail sometimes they record the wrong microphone or they press the wrong button and that's the part that like if i if i knew i was doing a podcast with somebody who didn't own skype call recorder on the mac because you have no recording of skype i

exactly now there are i talked to somebody who said that there are some ways to work around that but i think that i think that basically um that is part of the risk you take when you do this is that is that you need you're relying on someone else. So for download, I relied on Steven, who I knew was using Call Recorder to provide me with a Call Recorder file that I could use to sync everything up because I couldn't provide that myself. So there's a lot that you give up to do this. The only advantage is that I didn't have to bring my laptop with me and I got to write an article about it. So, you know, that was good, but it's not, it's not good enough for regular use. That's the truth of it. And I think that goes back to the core issue here,

which is that, uh, there's stuff that, that as much as, uh, we like iPads and we like iOS, there's stuff that iOS, um, especially on the software side, just is not capable of doing right now. And I hope that Apple addresses some of these issues. So like looking at the software side, just is not capable of doing right now. And I hope that Apple addresses some of these issues. So looking at the software, there are options available that you can just take a USB microphone, plug it into your iPad and go. You know, apps like Anchor and Zoom and Ringer. These are applications that provide calling interfaces and will do recordings for you. What experience do you have with these?

I know you've played around with some of them. Yeah, there are challenges. Like Anchor does a thing where they have in their podcast recording app, they have a guest mode where you can bring people in, but they have to be on iOS devices. You can't be, I don't know if they do Android, but you can't be on like a Mac or a PC because you need the app.

So that's no good. Zoom is a tool that I use for some podcasts, especially on The Incomparable these days. It's a business teleconference app, but it has some features like it will record. It will do cloud recordings of people and it will let you actually record multiple people on different tracks, which is also really good. Everybody has to have Zoom. That's available on all platforms. And if I absolutely had to only travel with an iPad and do a whole bunch of podcasts with a lot of people like I do with The Incomparable, I would probably do it all through Zoom. through Zoom. And then another option is Ringer, which is another for-pay teleconferencing service.

And they have a tier. It's not cheap, but they have a tier where you can connect to people on computers or on iOS devices or Android devices, I think, and it will record your voice and it will record all the other people and you can get those files afterward and edit them. So there are some, but they're limited and some of them are limited by platform and some of them are limited in terms of their functionality. And, you know, and I pay for Zoom, so I don't actually mind that. But like, some of them record locally, some of them don't, they just have a cloud recording. So it doesn't sound it's not as good quality, but it's better than nothing. So I don't know, I feel like the challenge here is that it's asking everybody to get yet another app, and you have to standardize and everybody has to get download that app or go to that that website. And that just makes it more complicated.

But it's possible. It's getting closer. But this is the catch is that basically you have to count on somebody's app who has anticipated all of your needs. You can't connect a few apps together like we do on the Mac and say, well, I'm using Audio Hijack and I'm using Skype and I'm using Call Recorder and now I've got everything. And I've built a whole system up. And iOS just kind of doesn't let you do that. Yep, and that's it. That's the key part. That's what I'm waiting for for this.

I want to be able to, on iOS, route my audio to multiple apps and have it record. That's what I want. And I know about AudioBus. I know there's this thing called AudioBus, which in theory lets you do this on iOS, but nobody uses it. No, my Paps are using it. Barely any recording apps I have in a garage band are using it. called audio bar switching theory that you're doing this on ios nobody uses it no no way perhaps

they're using it barely any recording apps of in a garage band are using it like it seems to be a musician's tool um yeah it's not being we hear about it every time and and it's one of those things where it's like well theoretically this could happen it's like well that's great but um the problem is that the these it's not being supported by the apps that need it. And, you know, they're not going to support it. And the way you need to do this is you need to have a system-wide thing that lets an app like Audio Hijack say, I want to grab the audio and let it. Instead of saying the author of every single app has to opt in and support this very specific thing in order to do this. It's just, it's not realistic. and support this very specific thing in order to do this.

It's just, it's not realistic. So, you know, there's definitely always a, well, actually involving audio bus that is like, it's just, it's right there. But it's like, yeah, but it's not practical and it's not being used in any of the apps that we would choose. And so that's why I think Apple needs to, you know, let more than one app

can look at the microphone at once, for example, as just one simple example, and maybe look at the overall system audio as well. And if I could have an app that could record my microphone and on one side of a stereo file and everybody else on the other side, while I was using some other app, this problem would be solved. Actually, I want to mention there are some great tools that let you record podcasts in browsers. Zencaster and Cast. I use Cast every week. The problem is that they require Chrome on the desktop and they don't work on mobile on iOS because iOS has Safari.

And Apple has made changes to the WebRTC, real-time communication standard, over the last couple of years. But according to the developers of these apps, it's still not enough for them to support Safari. So I was hoping that that might be a solution, is to use one of these web apps, because they will record locally and then send your file up over the internet. And it's very clever, because with non-technical people, I can just say, go to this URL in Chrome and we'll do a podcast. And I get a file from them and they didn't have to do anything except go to a URL.

Great. But it doesn't work on iOS. So, because it doesn't work in Safari. So that's not an option either. Oh, well. Oh, well. Today's episode is also brought to you by our friends over at Pingdom.

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14 day free trial and the code upgrade at checkout to get 30% of your first invoice. Our thanks to Pingdom for their support of this show and RelayFM and we move into hashtag AskUpgrade now and Jason, there is a theme to the majority of today's

AskUpgrade questions. Let's see if it plays out, if you can see what the theme is as we move through. Okay, okay. First question comes from Ben. What do you think of including iMessage for Android or Windows as a part of Apple's subscription service options in the future? I think it's possible. I think it's not, you know,

it's more engineering that they have to do. I think that it's more likely that they might build something. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I think they could because it would be, you're part of our ecosystem in terms of services. And if you've got an Android device, you can get your stuff on there. But is that a priority for them?

Do they really think that that's going to move the needle in terms of services revenue? Or is it just going to be kind of an afterthought for people who happen to have an Android device while also paying? Are Android users going to line up to pay for some Apple service just to get a blue bubble? And how many? So I'm skeptical about that. But it's not impossible.

I don't think it's impossible. I don't think it would be like, I don't even know if it's not impossible i don't think it's impossible i don't think it would be like i don't even know if it's necessarily something that like you would pay for just but would be a reason for people that don't use apple devices to sign up for a potential content bundle right like you pay for apple tv and we have this apple tv for android let's imagine and apple music for android and you also get imessage too um it could be could be good it could also you know it's a platform thing i i figure imessage for other platforms feels like a kind of if like a emergency release valve or something right like a break glass in case of emergency type situation

for getting more revenue like you just it's like oh what else could we throw at the pile well we could also do this that's kind of how i look at that yeah but you you have to the problem is that you have to build it like you have to get a team to build i know i message for which is not going to be easy right like of course it's not going to be easy, right? Like, of course, it's not going to be easy. But that's, you know, we'll see. I think it could happen. I think maybe at a certain point, Apple might just do it,

especially when you look at some of the stuff that Facebook's now talking about that they're going to do, right? That Facebook's going to make this end-to-end encrypted chat platform, right? And I can kind of imagine, I was listening to the Vergecast this week and I think Dieter Bohm brought this up,

that like maybe at some point, Apple just do it to kind of like stick a thumb out at Facebook and just be like, well, here is the truly end-to-end encrypted model, right? Like as a kind of like a privacy thing maybe um and i could potentially see that as an option just as like a kind of a way to stick a fork in the ground or whatever sure i'm making a lot of really weird broken yeah i don't

yeah but you kind of get what i'm saying right i think i think the challenge is a real cost analysis of how much is it going to cost for us to build and maintain a secure app on other platforms for this stuff and do we really want to do that you know is that going to get us subscribers and subscription revenue that is material but um i think it's i think it's possible like they could sell it as you get all this great Apple suite of features all on Android, too. They could do that. I just, I don't know. I don't know. I'm a little skeptical of it, but they could certainly do it if they did the calculations and decided it was a good idea.

Chris asks, with Apple's move towards services, do you think Apple will put stuff like news, TV, music, and books in the browser, or will they remain locked into apps? I think this is a great question. I feel like this is more likely than building Android or Windows apps, right? than building android or windows apps right like we've already seen on windows with icloud that what they've done is said oh if you're on a device that is not your usual device and might not even be a mac um we have a web interface for you and then they build a web interface and everybody can use the web interface so if you are on android or windows or whatever, we don't care. There's a website or on somebody else's Mac and you need to log in and check something. You can do that. And that's fine. I think that's a more likely scenario. Will it, you know, will they, I don't know, maybe, maybe, um, I would

hope they would actually, I think this would be a good one for them to do because it, it is the release valve, right? Which is if you have no other way to do this, you can just log in on our website and read that news or watch that TV show or play that music. Arthur asks, Apple Music or Spotify? I now have Apple Music included with Verizon, so I'm deciding whether to cancel my Spotify and go all in on Apple Music. I think it depends on the features you're using. Because Spotify's

selling point for a lot of people is the playlists that they make. So like Discover Weekly and stuff like that. Which are apparently very, very good. And I hear a lot of people compare them to Apple's, and Apple's are getting better, but they're still not great.

They're still not maybe as good as what Spotify is doing. If you use features like that, you may not be as happy. But if really all you're doing is listening to just like a library of music that you're putting together, right, you listen to your favorite artists or albums. I don't see why you wouldn't go for Apple music if it's now free for you, basically, because they all have the same library.

Like all these services have the same library. It's just the bits on top. Like for example, if you're also using some of like Spotify's features for controlling music on other devices, using the Spotify app, well, you're not going to get that on iOS. Apple Music doesn't do this as well, right? If you're sending it out to Echoes and to Sonos devices,

whilst Apple's getting better with AirPlay 2, Sonos' stuff is a little bit lower lockdown there. Yeah, although you can just use the Sonos app and you have access to Apple Music that way, and you can still play that stuff on some of those devices so i don't know mike i can't get if i get apple music for free and i have to pay for spotify i'm going to use apple music because why would i pay for spotify well i 100 agree i use apple music i pay for apple music apple music is just more integrated of ios i don't use Spotify's features and I have HomePods. So Apple Music for me, right?

Like I really think it just comes down to the fact of if you're using Spotify like features that are specific to Spotify that are outside of just the songs and stuff you're playing, then maybe you're best off sticking with Spotify, even if it is free for you. But if all you're doing is just listening to a library of music you've compiled, I don't think it really matters where you go. Kleziast asks,

what are the pros and cons of Apple releasing Apple Podcasts for Android? I don't think it's maybe as much of a lock-in as iOS for iMessage. Can you imagine Apple making an Android Apple Podcast app or why they would even? I can kind of imagine it, but it would require them to view podcasts super strategically for them. And they have shown no signs yet of doing that.

Where they say, no, actually, we want to take advantage of, we want to leverage our power in the podcast world to make money. leverage our power in the podcast world to make money. Like if they were to announce, and we've seen no rumors of this at all, but if they were to announce that they're going to do what Spotify is doing and create a whole bunch of like exclusive podcasts that are only on Apple, and they're only for like Apple music subscribers or Apple, whatever services that are forthcoming subscribers to do that. And that their delivery mechanism for that was going to be that they're going to make a great podcast app on android and give it away and it's and and they're going to use their their strength as a podcast provider to feed people into their services then i could see it but they've shown no interest in that so far um i think it would be popular, believe it or not, if it was good, because the podcast app market on Android is really fractured. And Google's taken a couple swings

at it, but even their current podcast app, which is kind of like a fake sub app of the Google app, is not great. Not to say there aren't good Android podcast apps. There are podcast, there are not to say there aren't good android podcast apps there are podcast pocket casts on android and it's great but um i think that apple might have an opportunity there if they if they were going to make something of it but i'm not sure we have seen any evidence that apple is interested in being anything but passive when it comes to podcasting i think the apple podcast could be successful on other platforms because of the marketing weight that apple have with podcasters you know like the mainstream podcasters you hear it all the time get it on apple podcasts like you just say that because it's the biggest player and if you have something more mainstream, your percentage of Apple podcast listeners is massive, right?

Like for like mainstream shows, not shows like ours, mainstream shows, it is huge, right? It's a big, big, big part of the pie. So it seems like just over time, like a lot of like the celebrity driven shows or the kind of like, you know, murder shows. They all just talk about like get it on apple podcasts because that's kind of just like the the place for it and so then if you're not on ios you hear get out an apple podcasts and if you don't know you're like well i can't get it then right yeah so i think that could be an interesting way to play it because they are so strong with uh the marketing messages and asking i think a lot of these people to use the marketing messages and asking, I think, a lot of these people to use

the marketing messages and stuff like that. I think that it works for that reason and it could be interesting. I think it would be kind of cool if they did do that, to be honest, but we'll see. Google Podcasts hasn't seemed that great. I've used it a bit. It does not seem that great. Not yet,

anyway. They seem to be talking a big game, but I don't know if the result has been that great so no not yet anyway they seem to be talking a big game um but i'm i don't know if the result has been that great so far all right so that i think wraps up this week's episode of upgrade thank you so much to pingdom and lunar display and express vpn for their support of this show uh you can find out more about this episode by going to relay.fm slash upgrade slash 236 but all the show notes should be in your podcast player of choice we hope, but if they're not you can go and find them there, Jason is online at

theincomparable.com and sixcolors.com he is at jsnell j-s-n-e-l-l on social media platforms like Twitter and Instagram, and I'm iMike I-M-Y-K-E, you can follow me in many places. Whatever social network you use,

just type that in, and if something pops up, just follow it. It's fine. It's not going to be a problem. You'll find... I'm sure something interesting will be there, even if it's not me. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back next time, maybe with a draft! If there is an Apple event announced between now and then,

there will be a draft on the next episode fingers crossed everyone, we'll see until next time, say goodbye Jason Snell goodbye Mike Hurley