Upgrade - 245: Get Ready for the Sensor Square

Episode Date: May 13, 2019

It's a busy week for Myke as Jason as they discuss hanging on to old software, how third-party apps react to Apple's app updates, the Supreme Court's ruling on an App Store antitrust case, the struggles of Apple Retail, and new reports about this fall's iPhone models. After all that, it's time to discuss the Brydge Pro and Logitech Slim Folio Pro and whether either of them can replace Apple's own Smart Keyboard Folio as our iPad Pro keyboard of choice.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 245 and today's show is brought to you by express vpn lunar display and pingdom my name is mike hurley and i am joined by mr jason snell hi jason snell hello mr mike hurley how are you i'm very We've got a big action-packed show today. We've got lots of things to talk about. So we should jump right in with our hashtag Snell Talk question. It comes from Doug, and Doug wants to know, after hearing you discuss sandwiches last week, I'm curious, what are your usual snacks for recording?

This is a very curious question to me. Yeah, yeah. Well, so first off, I very rarely have a snack while i'm recording basically not at all i will often have a beverage i have tea during upgrade and most of the things that i do in the morning in the you know afternoon or evening i might have a different beverage um occasionally so so the idea here is you don't really want to be eating when you're doing a podcast you should because even if even if you mute while you're crunching on something um your mouth is in eating i don't know mode and it you can like there are more mouth noises you can tell that you just ate something

yeah it changes the way your voice sounds it does it does and so and in fact, occasionally I have had to have food during like an incomparable where it's like literally I'm starving and there was no dinner and then the dinner happens just as I'm going in. I avoid that. But mostly it happens during Total Party Kill because we play for four hours and I will eat my lunch during that because you take turns and all that but when i'm listening back i can tell oh i i must have been eating lunch right here i can tell because it sounds different so when i'm doing things that are not extended ridiculous dungeons and dragons marathon episodes of total party kill um i don't snack during podcasts no just don't do it i do have a favorite snack for before i record these days oh yes what is that i came across this this brand this is not hashtag not sponsored called brave i don't know if this is just like a uk thing or whatever but they make roasted peas and they do them in a bunch of really interesting flavors and it's just like a very nice quick snack i can't eat nuts you see and these are very much like eating nuts right so like i'm a person who cannot eat nuts because i have an allergy so this is just a thing that i found recently that i really like

and i just wanted to suggest it to people if they especially people that can't eat nuts this has been like a nice replacement for that type of thing for me and i've been eating these recently like if i haven't had the time to eat lunch or whatever and i have to record a show um this this is a snack that will do that for me right like it will give me it will kind of fill me up a little bit if you can't eat nuts how do you know that eating roasted peas is like eating nuts because i used to eat nuts okay my allergy developed it wasn't oh I've had for my entire life, yeah. Well, then I think you have credibility in this area. Thank you. I know you're trying to get me on that one, but no.

Because I know what nuts taste like, what the texture's like, that kind of thing. And these are pretty close to that. All right. That's good. Thank you to Doug for sending in that hashtag Snell Talk question. If you would like to help open an episode of Upgrade, just send out a tweet with the hashtag Snell Talk, and your question may be included for the future. have some follow-up on cleaning airpods uh so we had uh upgradian lonnie ask last week in ask upgrade ask how we clean our airpods and both

right jason held up our hands and said that it was basically impossible to do so key point here is that we answered lonnie's question because he asked, how do we clean our AirPods? And we're like, I don't know, scrape this, do that, all of that. And then a bunch of people wrote in, like a lot of people wrote in, to give the what is the right solution. I just want to point out, we answered Lonnie's question because we do clean our AirPods in weird ways. But this is the right solution, I think. I think this is the right solution i think i think this is the right answer so many people wrote in uh with some some form of of silly putty or blue

tack or white tack or whatever things of those nature that like tacky stuff that you would use to maybe put a poster on the wall so you don't put a hole in the wall of a drawing pin museum putty that kind of thing yeah those apparently we've heard from many people that this is the way to do it. And as soon as I saw it, I was like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. Because you can jam it in there, right? Like in the case, in the AirPods, and you'll get anything out. Super gross, but you know, like, what are you going to do? Colin recommended a mascara brush, which was a good, it seemed like a good option.

I can imagine you getting in there and stuff. And Jeremy recommended a toothbrush and compressed air. Compressed air fixes all Apple products. That's my understanding. If you've got some sort of SSD problem, you just blow compressed air on it. So that's how you zap the PRAM now, just with compressed air. That's right. If you don't have any compressed air, just go really hard you know really hard just blow on the yeah really

fast on the disc i'm sure it'll be fine i'm sure that'll fix it big and then just you just put it back in again and it's fine uh so yeah so that that is how you can clean some airpods thank you to all of our upgradians who wrote in uh especially all of you who recommended some kind of tacky potty of some description. Now, Jason, I believe you created follow-out, which is the method of... I popularized it. I think one of our

upgradians actually created the concept, but I popularized it. We all know that attribution in follow-related topics is very important, so thank you for clarifying that. Follow-out is the method of which we will provide as if it's follow-up, but for a show that isn't this one. And Jason has a lot of follow-out this week.

Yeah, I guess I listened to podcasts this week. So just topics that came up on other podcasts that I wanted to mention and say something about. So last week on Connected, you and Steven and Federico were talking about, well, I was walking the dog. As you do, I was listening live to the live stream in the Relay FM app while walking my dog. And that was lovely. It was a lovely thing to do, to listen to a live podcast while you walk a dog. And you were talking about Aperture, right? You were talking about how Aperture is officially deprecated,

won't work with the next version of Mac OS, but people out there, I think, was it you who said? Yeah, I requested listeners to write in. Using Aperture, explain yourself. To tell me why you were using Aperture, because I was interested. I wanted to, basically, like, I wanted to see, because these things, you see see something like oh apple's

getting aperture and then you can assume some level of outrage on the part like on from the internet like what a travesty this is so i wanted to actually understand even listeners to connected who are going to be technologically savvy and up-to-date people exactly are they still using a piece of software which is really outdated? Because I was keen to work that out. And we heard from a lot of people and I gave them all their moment to shine

and read their messages. Yeah, including a message about somebody's dad. Anyway, it struck a chord with me because in working at Macworld for all of those years, we would get letters from some of these people, maybe not particularly these people, but this, and I think it was a really important lesson. I'm not sure what can be done about it,

but I think it provides a little perspective that maybe we lack sometimes because we are in a, I don't, you know, I'm not trying to be negative about this. I don't mean this negatively, but we are in a bubble in terms of people who are more tech savvy. And it's not just the people who are doing podcasts. It's people who are listening to podcasts, listening to tech specific podcasts, especially, right? Like we are more tech savvy on the whole than the general population. And sometimes you lose sight of that. Sometimes you lose sight of the fact that, well, all of my friends do this with their computer. And you don't realize that your

friends represent the top 1% of users in terms of sophistication with that feature. And that half of 1%, 10th of 1%. And that the vast majority of people don't do what you do. And it doesn't mean that what you do isn't important. And it doesn't mean that if it's in a key area that Apple might not be concerned about it if it's an Apple product. But it's an important perspective because Apple, you know, I think when we talk about features coming and going and like ATP last week was talking about default apps and we'll get to that. default apps and we'll get to that. But it's this idea that Apple is designing for the masses and their priorities are not necessarily your priorities for good reasons. And what flashed in my mind when you guys were talking about this on Connected is we used to get letters from people. So we would do like Snow Leopard would come out and we would start writing articles about all the new features

in Snow Leopard and how you could use them. And, you know, right. That was like that basic tech journalism kind of job. Here's what's new. Here's how you use it. Here's what's changed. Here's, did you know you could do this new thing? Gives us stuff to talk about for maybe a year, although maybe not quite a year, which is why in those last few months, you're like, come on, WWDC, we need new stuff to write about. And we would get letters every single time. So we're writing like, Snow Leopard, super guide, everything you need to know about Snow Leopard. And you get the letter from somebody who says, why are you writing so much about Snow Leopard? I want you to write more about Tiger or Leopard, like one or two OS versions back. I'm still using that.

Why aren't you writing about that more? Why are you only writing about this new thing? Do you get paid by Apple to write about this new thing? And the response is, well, no, we have run out of things to write. If you would like to see everything we've written about Tiger, please go back two years in your pile of magazines that you've saved and read those articles, but we have to move on. But I think it's an important point that we have to move on. They don't have to move on. And in fact, I think that users have,

a lot of users of technology are not like us where we're often driven forward by wanting the latest and greatest and the newest thing and are willing to take the change along with it. There are so many people who are users of technology who do not aggressively upgrade. I think, and I do think some of them listen to the podcast. I just think it's a smaller percentage. And you got this with your people using Aperture and Connected. They don't aggressively upgrade. They don't aggressively buy new hardware. And like at the top of it is they don't keep buying new third-party apps, especially expensive third-party apps.

So they are, you know, we have this story that we tell about how like, oh, well, you know, the IT department means that this company isn't going to update to the new version because they've got their publishing software. They've got their Adobe suite or whatever that they've qualified for this. And so everybody else has moved to Mojave, but not the publishing company. They're still back to versions because of their IT people. And there's truth to that sometimes, but people behave like that too, where're like why would i update why would i break this thing why do i need to upgrade to a new version i'm still on high sierra right so so why don't we talk about high sierra more mike is what i'm saying i'm gonna file a complaint with you we should have lots more high sierra tips i i get this uh people i will get people asking me these

questions too every now and then and and i think really the the reasoning for it is is pretty simple or like the idea of like someone's you know people said like oh you know you you always buy the newest phone like it's kind of losing touch the reason is because ultimately people tune into this show to hear about the new stuff i i i genuinely don't think upgrade connected atp would be as interesting as they are if we're all still talking about what it's like to use an iPhone 5S on iOS 12. Because it's just not. We did that. We did that for a year. We did that for a year.

And I just think that like it needs we need to keep moving forward to make sure we always have the newest stuff to talk about. Of course, it is very useful every now and then to look back and to talk about something specific, right? Especially if it's in the news, it's more easier to do that. Like talking about Aperture. We took time a couple of episodes ago when the news came out. What was Aperture? Why was Aperture good? And you can frame

it that way right but really i i think our jobs is to be as informed as we can about new stuff to help people make decisions in their lives sure but i think it is i think it's valuable while doing that to have because again like like i said at macworld our answer was not oh you're right we should write more about tiger our answer was that's not what we're here to do. We're here to write about the new stuff. But to keep in mind, and I think it's just a useful reminder, every year it reminded me, and I think this was a good example of it with the talk about Aperture, that a lot of people are interested in the new stuff, but their philosophy, I think it's a very common tech philosophy is I set on something and then until I have to change, I'm just going to

ride this out because my computer works fine. The OS works fine. It, you know, if you don't upgrade your software and you keep the same hardware, your computer basically doesn't get slower, right? It, what happens is you keep upgrading and then you, and you're like, oh my God, it's so slow, but like, it doesn't really get slower. You know, it gets slower in comparison, but it doesn't really get slower. So you end up with a four-year-old computer running a four-year-old operating system and four-year-old piece of software. It's probably actually an eight-year-old piece of software, but you know, you got it four years ago and you know which buttons to click and you've got all your files set up and it all works. And that is, you know, people do that.

And I think what's interesting about this 32-bit apps getting deprecated, which is behind, you know, not just Aperture, but a lot of stuff dying this fall, is this stuff is not dying this fall right it just is a a compatibility barrier being set up by apple so i think part of this and i've told this to people who are really worried about their stuff not working is keep an older computer around either buy a computer now that's capable of running mojave because it'll run 32-bit apps for its lifetime as long as you stay on Mojave, or keep the computer you're using now around and keep using Aperture because Aperture is not going to time out on September 15th or October 1st or whenever they release the next version of macOS. It's not. It'll still work. And there's nothing wrong with that. Also, I will remind people because a lot of people don't know this, that Apple for the last, I think, five years, six years has allowed virtualization of old versions of

Mac OS on Mac OS. So it's not ideal, but like if you've got an old piece of software that you dearly love and you need, especially if you only need it occasionally, because virtualization is slow, you can put that in a virtual machine and run it on at least an Intel Mac for a long time running 10.10, whatever, some old OS version with that piece of software you want. And it's allowed. It's allowed by Apple on Apple hardware. So there are options out there. It's not as if the aperture is going to turn into a pumpkin at the stroke of midnight.

But this is a very clear case where people who are relying on this workflow that they've built up, they're seeing that there's a wall coming. There's a barrier coming and that at this point they're kind of locked in because now they can't move forward and keep their old stuff. They can stay behind, but they know that at some point they're going to need to move forward. And I get that too. So I just think that this is part of, a weird part of the technology world

and it's worth putting in perspective that even though we talk about the new stuff, there are definitely people out there who are interested in hearing what's going on with the new stuff, but are also very happy to use this thing that they've been using for five years and the way they've been using it, and they don't want to change. And if Aperture works for you, you don't have to get rid of Aperture, but you are going to have to stay behind. That's

unfortunately the truth of it. Let me do my my second follow-out is that okay can i do that now can i do that now okay i mentioned atp earlier and this was a thing where um i'm listening to marco talk about uh the reminders update that is coming supposedly that we talked about last week and it was funny because marco and i often agree like i feel like one of of the reasons why Marco and I are not on more podcasts together is because I think it would be kind of boring because we do agree so much on things and I hear Marco say things. I'm like, yep, yeah, I don't need to say that now.

Marco said it. But he said something that struck me where he sort of characterized what we said is that we thought an update to make reminders more useful would be okay to the third-party reminders to do ecosystem. And he thought it would be much more destructive. And I'm not sure whether he kind of misunderstood what we said or whether we just didn't say it clearly,

but I thought it was worth clarifying at least a little bit that when I talked earlier about how Apple's job is to make these default apps appeal to 95% of users, like the masses, because so many people just use the default app of whatever it is, I feel like there are two different scenarios there. And one of them is they do a bad job and they ignore basic features that should be there. And what you get is a bunch of third-party apps that build basic features to take advantage of Apple doing a bad job, that Apple's not paying attention or they blew it or they don't care. Sometimes Apple does a good job and they make an app that has the basic features for 95%.

And then third parties rush to fill the gap for the people who want to do more than what Apple is willing to do in their pre-installed on every device app. Also, I should say, sometimes Apple does a bad job and people do come in with a really good app. It's not like only bad apps fill the gap. But I feel like those are the two scenarios. And when Apple fixes one of its core apps to be okay, I think two different things happen. The apps that just rushed in with an app that is fine, but really what it's trying to do is replace the fact that Apple has done a bad job with basic functionality. And then there are the apps that are really going beyond for what the power users want. I think that's the challenge here is if you're the first kind of app, yes, Apple becoming respectable with whatever app it built

is horrible for you because you were just trying to make a basic app that did things that Apple failed at. If you were trying to make something that appeals to people who are going to go above and beyond what the basic level is of whatever Apple develops, I feel like you're going to be fine. You might have to adjust a little bit, but I feel like you're going to be fine because in watching what Apple does, you know, every Apple app, even good built-in Apple apps, there are users who look at it and go, hmm, but I want to do this, you know, very specific thing. And there's probably an app that will do that. And that's, that's, for me, I feel like that is the safest third party app, uh, uh, place to be if you are in a category where Apple has an app is you do more than Apple because Apple's never

going to do it all. They're never going to make super tweaky power user features because it's a lot of work and it complicates the app. And most of the people that they are caring about, they want to hit the middle. They want to hit the masses. But there are also apps that are not that sophisticated and are just filling a niche because Apple has completely failed at building a good app. And when Apple gets, you know, finally realizes that that thing has to be fixed, those apps are in trouble. And that there's truth in that. That's true. I just, I don't feel quite as bad for those apps as I do for the ones that are about the edge cases, because that is a good place to play

if you're building an app in a category with a default Apple app. So for reminders, if there are any low-hanging fruit features that Apple's going to take care of, yeah, if your whole app is about that stuff, you're going to be in trouble. But I think so many task planning apps are about personal preference, the ways people plan their tasks. They're going to go way beyond what Apple wants to do. Because, you know, Apple's never going to make a super focused task planning app. They're going to make a better reminders app for 95% of the population. And that's okay. Yeah, I think most of the applications that we talk about or think about that I consider successful in this realm, like more than just to-do apps, but actual like getting things done type applications will probably be mostly unaffected by this, I reckon. Yeah.

You know, it's kind of like how how Marco used Notes apps as an example. Typical Notes apps would have felt the pain, but then there are these other types of applications, the ones that we would use more, which are like, this is a Markdown formatting application. It's like, well, they probably won't affect

it that much. There's tiers. Reminders probably will have an effect, but I don't think it's going to affect any of the apps that I would typically even come close to using. And another thing that happens is, and we know people who develop some of these apps, right? The other thing that happens is kind of most of my value proposition were those three things. But there is this fourth and fifth thing that I do that they don't do. And now I'm going to add this feature that they also were not going to do. Because all of these Apple apps have gaps and weaknesses. And the smart app developer, and again, you know that Apple is walking in this market.

And you know that they may stomp on you. And you have to dodge them. It's a tough place to be, but there are always little places for apps to go because Apple's never going to make the app where everybody goes, well, nobody ever needs another app, right? It's not going to happen. So that's the challenge for those developers is just to find the place where Apple is not fulfilling some part of the market. Because the truth is going off a default app to a third party app is a real niche thing.

It's why most people on iOS still use Apple Maps and not Google Maps. It's like, behold the power of the pre-installed app that's called Maps. It's just, it's a thing. So you can find your place for the people who desire more, because quite honestly, those are the people searching in the App Store for an app to replace the default app, because the default app hasn't satisfied them for some reason. And if you can reach them, you can succeed. Speaking about the power of the default application, maybe we're going to get into some of that in a minute about some of the problems

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for their support of this show and RelayFM. So Jason, before we record it today, there's a little bit of breaking news about apple and the supreme court uh this is breaking news straight up something that i don't really understand um yeah so i'm hoping that you can can help me a little bit with it american legal processes yeah this this one's a little bit over my head, I think. Yeah, I think it's complicated just in the sense that it is leading a lot of places,

more than what actually happened today as we record this. Right, because there wasn't a ruling. No one's saying something's right or wrong today, are they? This is an appeal that kicks it back to the lower courts. right or wrong today this this is an appeal that kicks it back to the lower courts okay and so basically apple is being sued in an antitrust class action about uh apple's control of the app store and this lawsuit was thrown out at a on a lower court by saying that there is a precedent to not holding distributors responsible for some of these controls. And that Apple said, we are that. We are a distributor.

I'm simplifying it here, but we are a distributor of apps for developers. Developers sell them. We distribute them. And therefore, this doesn't apply to us. And it got appealed. And the Ninth Circuit agreed with Apple. It got appealed up to the Supreme Court. And in a 5-4 vote, and interestingly, a 5-4 vote that you kind of wouldn't expect, where it was actually the liberal justices and one of the conservative justices who came together to form the five-vote majority, they kicked it back to the lower court and said, yes, it does apply to Apple. Apple is a seller of apps, not a distributor of apps. And that means that this process is going to continue. Apple probably didn't expect that they would be in this. And because Apple has kind of lost this battle over its claim that it's an intermediary

and then couldn't be sued, it can now be sued. And so the case will go forward in the federal courts. It will probably last a while. What it does outside of like the details of this case is it's yet another pressure point on Apple to possibly change its app store policies in reaction to not just the suit, but increased scrutiny that they've been getting from regulators, politicians, and presidential candidates. And there's a question about will Apple try to make changes in order to get the heat off? Also, there's a real open question about what might a court ruling be and might make them do a few possibilities that have occurred to me and that I've seen blow by in my Twitter stream this

morning. One of them is, is the idea simply of what if Apple introduced gatekeeper for iOS, like they have on the Mac, where basically by default, you can only install things from the app store, but they allow, you know, quote unquote, freedom for the user of turning that off and letting you sideload apps that you download elsewhere, presumably following Gatekeeper's model that were still signed and notarized so that they would be kind of approved developers and apps from Apple, but not actually go through the App Store, which means that they could be charged for outside of the App Store, it would be a much less pleasant process. But it might be a way for Apple to say, you know, the bulk of users, like I was saying earlier, are going to just use the App Store. But if you're somebody in a particular niche,

and you want to go off and have this kind of inferior experience, but get this app over here, maybe we'll allow you to do that. but it'll have to be from a verified developer and they've notarized their app or whatever. They could do that. That would be a big change on one level. I think on another level, it wouldn't probably change a whole lot for most iOS users, but it would be another vector for sleazy software to get on iOS devices. However, somewhat under the ability for Apple to revoke certificates and make those apps break if people are doing things that Apple doesn't like. Another option, which is on the table, I think, is what if Apple changed their policy about outside links and

payments inside apps? This is the, you must use an in-app purchase rule, right? And Apple would still have an advantage in that case because in-app purchase is super easy. All you're doing is basically saying, yes, buy this. And it uses your Apple ID and your credit card that's on file. And if they have to open a webpage and have you log into their website or put in your credit card and then tap and then have it go back to the app, that would be less fun. However, they would save 30% on those in-app purchases. And that would be a hit to Apple services revenue. If you look at like Netflix walking away from doing subscriptions, which is not quite the same as a pure in-app purchase, but still Netflix walked away and was like, you know, we don't want to share 15 to 30%

with Apple, it would be potentially a big hit. But Apple may be forced to go in that direction by this because that really is Apple. That's a great example of Apple saying, no, no, no, we want all commerce on our store to go through us and we want to take a cut of it, except for ads. On the face of it, and again, this is all big legal stuff, so it is what it is. But the way that you expressed it as a seller or a vendor, I feel like it can't be argued that they sell apps. They take a cut, right? The level of control, yeah, it feels to me very much like, and again, we're not lawyers, but it feels to me as an observer

and as a user that Apple is the seller of the apps. Apple's built the store. Apple is selling the apps. They're not just distributing them. And I would say also, in my mind, developers don't feel that they've got control over their app sales. They have no information about customers. They don't get anything particularly these days, I think, just the ability to set to have their app on an iphone and and i don't i don't know what that i mean this is you know you go back to that spotify thing like that's what this whole value

proposition is about like developers these days don't feel like they get the same and like you're right like if they offered the ability for people again, to at least be able to reference the fact and allow for a sign-up flow of their own in an application, that could go a long way. But even for Apple, that's still – you have to be a very specific type of company. It's going to make a hit for them because it's going to be big publishers and big that go and do it, but it's not be the be-all end-all i think there was there was a statistic that i can't remember off the top of my head but they actually called this out on the last earnings call didn't they about like the the fact that none of the company that they tried to like i think they tried to put investors at ease to be like oh you know it's only no no company no one company holds more than x percentage of our service revenue.

It was a small percent of the App Store revenue. The largest one was less than 1% of the App Store revenue or something like that. And I think that was them kind of trying to be like, oh, if people decide to do what Netflix did, what Spotify has done, it's not going to wipe out 20% of our revenue.

I think that's what they were kind of trying to show, but it was it was an interesting statistic for them to throw out yeah yeah so it's uh i don't know um i think things can go weird uh i i take the larger view here that apple is probably going to have to revisit its approach to the app store now um and not because it isn't working for them i think the app store that we've got now is because the app store was a hit and we've said this a bunch of times on this show that um one of the ways that the app store has been not as good as it should be is because apple didn't feel the need until until really that moment where they put phil schiller in charge it. There was a long period there where Apple was like,

look, it's a hit. Don't mess with a hit. It's like, but there's 50 things wrong with it that you should fix. And I'm like, hmm, but why? Because it's great. And then finally they kind of got over that. But I think Apple is reluctant to change its policies in this area because they don't know what the fallout will be

and it has worked for them spectacularly. And so they just kind of like say, nope, we're going to just keep these policies. It's very rare that they change something. This feels like a moment where because of political and legal pressure, Apple has more of a motivation to revisit their approach to the App Store. And although it could get weird in this area too, my gut feeling is that this is overall probably going to be good for developers and users if Apple loosens up a little bit. Because I can just see all sorts of areas where Apple's policies make a worse user experience. And my go-to example is you should be able to buy Kindle books in the Kindle app. You should be able to buy comics in the Comixology app. And you can't because they don't want to have Apple take 30% of their margins.

I've been saying for a while that my understanding was that that basically eats all the profits. It doesn't eat all their profits. It just eats most of their profits. And they've built a business on making money by taking the profit margin that's built into reselling a comic book or a book, and it gets blown up inside of Apple's in-app purchase system. Also, podcast support in podcast apps is a great example where we know people who build podcast apps and uh lots of podcasts there's a trend now toward independent podcasts wanting support from listeners um relay does it the incomparable does it it happens um but podcast general interest podcast apps are very reluctant to do anything involving a link to somebody asking for money because potentially

anything even like me putting a link in my show notes saying support the incomparable could be interpreted by an overzealous app reviewer as a a podcast app sending somebody to the web for money which is not. So there are lots of things that could get better if Apple changed its rules. And some of these rules feel more Apple just trying to skim money out of the system than Apple making a reasonable exchange in exchange for some user features. And again, I believe that in-app purchases and Apple's payment system would still remain popular in apps

if they allowed other approaches because it would be so much easier and more convenient to be inside the system. But there would also probably be apps who would opt out and they would make it much more unpleasant for their users. But at the same time, you would hope that the market would then say, this app isn't very good because they make you go through this ridiculous system in order to

buy things. And this app is good because it's easy. But, you know, giving the developers the choice and giving better features to the consumer who wants to just buy a book inside the Kindle app. Like, I think that could be good. I think making Apple revisit some of these rules and back down on some of them, my feeling is it will have the net effect of being good for everybody except maybe Apple and maybe not as bad to Apple as they are afraid of.

So last week on the show, when talking about the iPhone sales and some of the changes that are going on at Apple Retail, we theorized that maybe Angela Ahrens' departure from Apple was because of some kind of culture clash, right? About where her vision was and then maybe clearly how the company's changing in the stores. Then last Tuesday, Mark Gurman and Matthew Townsend at Bloomberg published a report that actually dives into this as a thing. So the article itself details some customer experiences at the Apple Store, which have changed, right? That's the color on the article.

People complaining. And again, it's like with anything, we talk about this all the time, especially with reports like this. Think about where this information is coming from. Who has an ax to grind? Yeah, you can get a man on the street to complain about whatever subject you're writing about. I'll just say from a journalism standpoint, I look at these articles and I think, well, this user was offended by this thing that happened in an Apple store. I'm like, that tells me nothing.

I'm sorry that they had a problem, but it literally, the best and worst retail store, you could get that same quote from somebody when you go shopping for a quote. And again, that part's meaningless to me. store you could get that same quote from somebody when you go shopping for a quote and again it's you know that part's meaningless to the employees that they speak to i think very clearly are employees of axes to grind right yeah it could be right i mean otherwise why exactly right so like people people are upset about you know who've worked at the apple store forever and they're upset about how it is and that kind of thing but nevertheless i think there was some interesting uh information to to glean from this article maybe to add a little bit more color and perspective around

what happened when all of a sudden Angela Aarons left. So the article references that they spoke to employees who say that the stores have become too much of a branding exercise for the company and that the overall quality of the staff that they employ is slipping. So, you know, I think you can understand this as the Apple store has expanded, you know, like the idea of the Apple store and more stores, they can't only hire like the very best applicants. They need more people, right? They need lots of people.

So then it's not going to be like your friendly neighborhood tech nerds all the time. That just feels like a natural thing. However, when you think about it now, why would they put the HR chief in charge of retail? Well, this would be why. Because apparently, Deidre O'Brien is going to be putting a lot of focus on how they recruit and then how they train their employees in the hopes that this will try and make the overall apple store experience better it is also worth noting and i think this is important that even many of the people that

they spoke to said that aaron's wasn't the root cause for this but these things worsened under her tenure like before angela aaron's joined the apple store a lot of the complaints we have about the apple store now still existed like the lines were too long all of that kind of stuff was happening before or that it was confusing and you didn't know where to go like that all predates that that is all the way back in ron johnson's era that has been an issue but it has been exacerbated but it's they were all still there i think what we said at the time when she left was that i mean i my feeling at the time was she did what she was hired to do and when we talked last week about the idea that apple is now really stepping up its uh sales this really dovetails that's why i was kind of tickled by the fact that this article came out tuesday i was like oh good mike

we were ahead on this one we were talking about it and then this article dropped because the idea that you, they brought in Angela Ahrens to talk about, you know, it's supposed to be an experience and it's supposed to be branding. And it's not supposed to be about fixing your problem and checking you out with your, you know, purchase and all of those things like that. We want a luxury experience. We want it to be an experience. We've got a grove. We've got trees. We want people. It's all about branding and the Apple experience.

My feeling is that even when they hired her, that was probably a mistake, but certainly it has been borne out over the last few years that that was a mistake. How did they get to Angela Ahrens? She was a CEO at Burberry, right? they get to angela aaron's well why'd they

hire she was a ceo at burberry right so they had to hire her away with a pitch about like exactly we have this powerful retail it's the most uh profitable brand it's more profitable than any other luxury retailer and we want you to work your magic on it she didn't apply right like they've they had an idea they've recruited her yeah they had an idea of where they wanted the stores to go you know again a quote from the article, that her goal was to make Apple stores more like luxury showrooms, pushing offstage the unseemly business of checking out and fielding complaints. Like, and that's what she did.

I mean, the stores are more like that. That's what she was hired to do. The problem is that they need to sell product. We now live in an era where Apple really actually needs to sell their products, not just let to sell product. We now live in an era where Apple really actually needs to sell their products, not just let them sell themselves. And that they, Apple, look, Apple got high on its own supply here a little bit, right? We're like, oh, we're Apple. We don't need to do anything. And it's like, no, actually having all of these stores in all of these places, you are on the front lines.

Your retail employees are on the front lines of fixing broken things. And I feel like the battery thing really just brought it to a head, which is like, oh, my God, our branding exercises somehow are not able to deal with a massive number of people who have a battery they want to replace. And that was for me, that was like that final moment of a clash, which is we're not we're not capable. And, well, they were capable, but we're not prepared to be the battery replacement shop because we are here for branding and to teach classes and not to sell products and replace products. And when you talk to people about their complaints about the Apple Store, what they very rarely say is, it wasn't a nice experience. I like to go there and look at the stuff and it's pretty and all that. It's like, you know, they did a good job. The Apple Store, Apple Stores are pretty. The flagship ones are gorgeous.

Apple Stores are more beautiful now than they have ever been. I mean, and I think that that is something about Angela Aronson's time. Like the most, they took, Apple Stores have always been beautiful, but I think they took an incredible step forward in that. And I personally appreciate that. The problem is that you want, in the end, they need to be places, and the people who are complaining are saying this,

they need to be places where I just want to buy a case. I just want to buy a cable. And they can do a little bit of like, well, maybe you should just do it online or order it online and then come pick it up. But it's like, they don't really want to do that. I have a broken thing. I need you to fix my broken thing.

I had an experience last week at my retail store where there was a product recall on the UK power plug adapter. And it said, basically, we're not going to send you one. You need to go to an Apple store and exchange your old one for the new one. And I have the universal or the international kit. So I wanted to get that done while I was thinking about it. they click on a link and say you need to make an appointment and here are available appointments and i went in and the guy uh sat me down and said well let me go see if we have one and i thought to myself wait a second why why why would you not be sure if you're making me come here? And that was just one example of like, I mean, and they did have one and it was fine, but it was like, why is that even a question?

And that's the thing is, as this article says, it's kind of the unseemly business of product support. And everybody's had that experience, I think, at an Apple store where you just want to buy a thing. And then you stand there with the thing and you're like, hello, somebody, can I buy this? I mean, you literally can buy it in the Apple store app. They kind of want you to just use the app and check yourself out because they really don't want to deal with you, which is sending a message, even though it's convenient. And if you never want to talk to a soul, you can go into an Apple store and buy a lot of stuff and walk out and never talk to somebody. And that's great. But what if you aren't comfortable with that and you want to talk to somebody that that's the stuff

that is not part of that, you know, idealized brand thing. And that's, and that's, uh, so this article I think makes clear what many of us already suspected, which is like, this is, um, this is not really Angela Aronson's fault as much as I think it is the people who thought that Angela Aronson was the person to take the Apple Store in the direction it needed to go. And that direction was even more luxury. in the last few years, it is that moment of Apple deciding that it's a luxury brand and making a gold watch and having the CEO of Burberry rebrand all of their stores. Because it seems like that was Apple losing

what it really is. Because in the end, Apple isn't that kind of luxury brand. I think that the watch did bring with it one of their better store experiences, which was to try on. I thought that that was luxury brand. I think that the watch did bring with it one of their better store experiences, which was to try on. I thought that that was really good. That was very valuable. And yet today we hear, like last week there was on Twitter, Marco and Tiff Arment went into an Apple store and they were like touching a display Apple watch and were yelled at and said, you don't touch them. You can't touch them. Right. That's that right there.

That's staff training. That's the problem, right? Exactly. That is an example of poor training for staff. Exactly. Right. So there's a bunch of stuff going on here with Apple retail, but it is not surprising that basically they thought Apple retail,

the execs who hired errants went in one direction. And then I think it became clear over the course of several years that that was actually the wrong direction to take the Apple store. And while there's a lot of good stuff at Apple stores, you know, they have done a bad job that, you know, they're being measured on things that are not the things they should get measured on. And my guess is that Deirdre O'Brien is going to be, that's one of

her big challenges is how do we measure the stores based on these other metrics, which are not. And if I was an employee, I'd be frustrated because I experienced this as a manager. Sometimes the business changes and you say, okay, I know up to now you've been working on this and this is how we measure success. But as of tomorrow, we measure success differently. And now we have to work on this to measure success. And if you're an employee being told that the thing that you've really chugged on and that you've worked on and you've been successful at, and it gives you value as an employee,

is no longer valuable, not only does that invalidate all the work you've done up to that point, but now you're being told you need to do something different, which means you need to change how you work, change your value system. That's brutal. And as that goes on at Apple Retail, you're going to get quotes from Apple Retail people who are frustrated because, of course, they are. Yeah, because, I mean, first you have people annoyed that they got rid of the

Genius Bar, and now you're going to get people more annoyed that the reason that they got rid of the Genius Bar now has to change as well, because then it's kind of like, ha-ha, I told you, and I get it, right? But that's why, as you say, there are people who have access to grind. But I feel pretty, at this point, when Aaron's departed, it was a surprise.

I feel like it's completely clear now. I think it's completely clear. Right, and it's not the job she was hired to do, and it's not in her area of expertise and i think that was why it was such an amicable but also fast split because it was just like well we need to go in a new direction i don't want to go there great well let's resolve this and we can go our separate ways yep another bloomberg report that i want to touch on as from mark german and debbie wu uh basically so this report is about taiwan semiconductor starting to manufacture the a13 chip for the next iphone right headline wise

why would you read it of course they are right like this is not an exciting report but there's some little details in it which are interesting and And it's not necessarily stuff that's new, but it's stuff that's interesting to see reported again, maybe in slightly different ways, right? So this is an expected story. Like we all know that the next chip will be the A13. We know it needs to be made in advance, and it's coming in September, right?

Like that's obvious. But I read some quotes from the article. Apple also makes specialized chips for macs and is working on a main mac processor to eventually replace those supplied by intel this is one of those things where it's like okay so we all believe this to be the case but it's not often said and like what is what is uh if what are either german or was saying here do they know this to be the case are they saying that like it's 100 happening is someone working on it is working on a main mac processor the way i choose to read that phrasing is that apple is working with taiwan

semiconductor probably on samples that it hasn't gone into production, but they have talked to them about a different ARM processor version, a variation or whatever it is that will be used on the Mac, but that this is not like they're not producing it now for the fall. They're not producing it now for the fall. But they are working on something with Apple, which is, again, something that we kind of suspected. But I read this as being they have gotten some confirmation from Taiwan Semiconductor, basically, that, yeah, we've seen that and are providing Apple with samples. It seems like it's come back around again, right? Like whoever told them about the A13 was like oh yeah and we're also working on the mac processor it's also possible that this is the they're they're what they're

doing is they're making the a13 but they're also in the process of ramping up for variations like an a13x for an ipad and an a13m maybe for a mac something like that xl from the mac the you know that that might be the case too where it's like well this is not just about a13 it's about the extensions to a13 that will be done after we start ramping up the iphone versions of the chips the a13 it's a family product right like there's there's more than just the one chip and within a year as you say there's three of them that i think that's the most likely scenario is that the A13 is not only the processor for the iPhone, but it's also the beginning of a family. And we know that because they always do the X version that has some different kind of technology on it that fits the specs of an iPad better.

And then you can imagine, I don't see why they couldn't either use the X chip for the Mac or they could use another variant, like I said, like an A13M. And I just made that up. But that's not unreasonable to say, here's our processor generation. And that may be how Apple handles processor generations going forward is essentially everything's A13 or whatever, followed by some variants. But it's all branded as A13 generation. And that's not surprising at all. It's also planning other new types of chips, including a cellular modem for making calls and connecting to the internet,

and power components based on a recent deal with Dialog Semiconductor. This sounds to me like Apple has talked to them about a roadmap, right? Like, we're working on modems. We're going to need you to make modems. Get ready for that. That sounds like even further off, right? Planning on making. Good news for you, Taiwan Semiconductor.

More business for you. We now have the patent access as well. So you can do whatever you want because we had to buy that from Qualcomm. Yeah, we got patents. We're working on chips. We want you to help us with some references there. And eventually, we're going to need you to make these for us too. And they're like, all've got patents. We're working on chips. We want you to help us with some references there. And eventually we're going to need you to make these for us too. And they're like, all right, great. And so that's a little further off, but also they're happy to do it, right?

It's more business from this big, important client. Then this article takes a real left turn and starts talking about iPhone cameras and gives a detail that has yet in my opinion to be so explicitly given so a third camera on the high-end iphone models will have an ultra wide angle lens to produce larger and more detailed photos it will also enable a broader range of zoom like i feel like at this point this what what the third camera was going to do had been in a bit of contention. Right. This seems to be the clearest kind of mentioning of this and also is the one that makes the most sense. So it's wide, regular, and zoom lenses on the back.

That's the three. And then with an interface where you basically can slide it across it, which is what they mean by broader range of zoom. Because now you can go back all the way to the wide and then through the normal one and then into the telephoto one. Exactly. The three-camera system will only be on the, what will be 11 and 11 max, I guess. Who knows? There'll still be a two-camera model. I don't even know anymore.

Exactly, on the XR. But that will have increased zoom as well. So I'm intrigued about what that means. Maybe, like, the broader range of zoom, potentially the telephoto lens might be able to do more now, I guess, right? Like, that actually might be something that can provide a closer zoom than before.

If the XR is going to have increased zoom, right, you'd expect, if there's only going to be two cameras, so maybe the telephoto lens will be better as well, which is great. And apparently the two higher models will be a millimeter thicker than the current phones. About half a millimeter. Can you imagine? Sorry, half a millimeter.

But still, though, thicker phones. It's interesting. And that the back camera array will fit into a square square on the top left mark german then tweeted an image to some like basically plates some renders sort of back cases to show what he said this is all look like a mold that is floating around and it's unclear what that exactly means but yeah the idea is that the camera bump is now sort of a camera a sensor square let's call it that the camera bump is now sort of a camera a sensor square let's call it that the camera bump now a sensor square also the the um at one point the consensus was that the

10s max equivalent would get the third camera but that the 10s wouldn't and that's not the case in this report this report says they will both get it that's when you start looking at like okay so in the past we've also heard that this third camera might be used for better ar room sensing right so what if it what if somehow the max phone has a different type of sensor that can allow that as well right like that's where it's kind of there's been a lot of backwards and forwards about what the cameras are going to be for compared to what bloomberg said and what that as well, right? Like that's where it's kind of, there's been a lot of backwards and forwards about what the cameras are going to be for compared to what Bloomberg said and what Ming-Chi Kuo is saying. But this is, I think, at least for the back camera system, this feels like the most

up-to-date and complete version of history. That also makes the most sense. I would be really surprised if Apple does not have a wide angle lens on the next iPhone because all of their competitors are doing it. Yeah. Same as I want a wide angle lens on the selfie camera as well. For sure.

So that's all wide angle all the time. But yeah. So get ready for the sensor square, everybody. Yeah, I don't know about that. I really don't. I'm not sure about that. It looks kind of like a die a like a die like a uh like you rolled a rolled a three yeah or you rolled a five i don't know two two of the dots are little and three of them are big but yeah

it's uh it's i feel like at this point maybe it shouldn't be on one of the corners i feel like it's getting too big to live on the corner i I don't know. I mean, it's all in the execution, right? I'm sure it'll look good, but it is, yeah. This is the case where Apple's got its beautiful design principles, and then it's got to put these ugly sensors somewhere, and you get a notch, and you get a sensor square.

Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. But there you go, in what appeared to just be an article about chips being made. There's a couple of extra details in there. Always pay close attention. Today's episode is brought to you by our friends at Luna Display, the makers of the only hardware solution that will take your iPad and turn it into a wireless display for your Mac,

meaning you will have a second display, which is incredibly portable with zero lag and stunning image quality. Setting up extra screens can be a fiddly affair, but Luna Display couldn't be easier. You have a wonderful dongle straight from Dongletown that you can plug straight into the back of your Mac and you're ready to go. Everything works over Wi-Fi, but if you're Casey Liss who can't seem to connect to Wi-Fi networks, you can also use a USB. You can just connect a Mac and a Luna Display enabled iPad, right? You can just connect them via USB and you've got that right there and it's wonderful and you can use it as much as you like. Luna Display is a complete extension to your Mac.

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and I'm doing stuff, and I genuinely forget that I am not interacting with a Mac at that moment. Because you're living the dream. It really is. I mean, I do have very good, I have like a good home Wi-Fi setup, right? So like I'm in prime conditions. But it really, genuinely feel is so responsive. And it works so well that it's kind of like, well, this is just my computer. And we're going to talk in a minute about why it feels even more like that these days. I really love my Luna Display and I think that you will too. And listeners of Upgrade can get an exclusive 10% discount on Luna Display by going to lunadisplay.com. That's L-U-N-A-D-I-S-P-L-A-Y.com and using the promo code UPGRADE at checkout. That is LunarDisplay.com and the promo code UPGRADE

at checkout to get that exclusive 10% off. Our thanks to Lunar Display for their continued support of this show and RelayFM. Alright, so, iPad keyboard reviews. We're going to talk about the Logitech Slim Folio

Pro and the bridge keyboard the for the 20 bridge pro the bridge pro is it bridge pro is that the final name i feel like that's the name of it bridge pro that's probably a good idea to name it that way i hadn't thought of that until now that's an easier naming so bridge pro i have one jason oh good so do i um i don't have the logitech slim folio because i know i won't like that product um your review confirmed that for me but even when federico was telling me about it and federico likes it uh i know it's not for me um i just i know yeah uh but i had assumed that the bridge would be for me. It is, and we can talk about in a little bit why, but I will say bridge, they sent me this in advance.

They sent me one of the kind of like the first production models like they did for you. I have purchased the 11 inch one myself and that will come at some point. I'm very excited for that to arrive too because I'm keen to see what that's going to be like. But yeah, they did send me one. So I just want to say that up front.

And again, I think Logitech and Bridge both sent you yours, right, for reviews? Yes, yep. So I'm keen, because you published two reviews, I'm keen to kind of get into a little bit of comparison between the two of them. And I have a few areas that i would like to get your feeling on it's like kind of like a versus like what what in which category does each product win

out um so in your opinion between the logitech slim folio pro and the bridge pro which has the better design okay uh i mean it's all in the eye of the beholder i think the bridge design is better because the bridge is uh made with anodized aluminum it matches the back of the ipad pro it matches the sides of the ipad pro it matches the design of the ipad pro so you make a little sandwich basically where the bridge is one hat one piece of bread and the ipad pro is the other piece of bread and they're designed similarly and they come together to make this laptop when they're closed and the metal finish matches it is you know so i like that it matches and i like that design the um the logitech matches the one my least favorite things about the iPad Pro, which is the featureless gray of its cases.

It's basically a kind of featureless gray expanse. The keyboard is gray plastic with a gray plastic surrounding it. It's just gray. and it's a whole case as well isn't it the logitech one you can't just it's not just a keyboard it's like a whole thing that you have no it's a front it's it's a it's a front and back and you have to sort of snap the um the you slide the bottom into this rubberized bottom on the Logitech. And then there are two edges that you kind of have to lift or push and they go over the edges of the iPad. And then the iPad is kind of being held in that back plate. And then there's the keyboard and then and then

you carry it around like that. So it's it's not any any heavier. It's actually a couple millimeters lighter than the bridge. But it's this wraparound thing that turns your whole ipad into a featureless gray plasticky uh device so i think i mean the the the bridge pro is so much more sleek in its design and matching with the iPad, I think from a design perspective, like from a, from a visual perspective, it is, I think the Bridgewood definitely looks better, but the, but the Smart Folio has additional functionality, right? So like, if you're thinking about it from a design perspective, it's not just about the way that it looks, but the way that it works and, you know, with it being a full-on case, it has stuff that I think is quite clever about like it can hold the apple pencil in place right like the the kind of the thing that goes over to

keep the whole case closed it also can then hold the apple pencil which is like okay that's nice it's true it can hold because it's got this magnetic flap that can flap down in front of your screen which is annoying but if you flap it if you you know fold it back it will hold magnetically open and therefore not get in your way. But yes, you've got not only can you slide the pencil in there, so it's super secure. But even if you just put the pencil on the charging thing and then fold this over when it's closed, it's not going to get brushed off and fall out in your bag or whatever. That is definitely an advantage. It's got, I would say, probably better protection. Bridge comes with a magnetic back plate, basically, that you just attach.

And it makes it look kind of like some other company's laptop because it's covering the sideways Apple logo at that point. But it does give it some back protection for those who are concerned about that. I think it's a nice addition, but that's not for me. Yeah, I've been using it some, but other times I just don't bother putting it on because I don't care. But sometimes I do. When I'm taking it out or I'm putting it in the bag, I kind of like the fact that there's a little extra layer. And it's magnetic, so it's just not that big a deal. But yeah, the Logitech has more stuff going on because it's got that whole back shell and uh the other um kind of like design feature

that it's got is um it only is active when it when it's docked in typing position so basically there's a magnet and when it docks in typing position that's what turns it on whereas with the bridge you do have to like turn i mean if you want to control it you have to turn it on and off it will auto wake and and things like that yeah or you have to like you know you find yourself hitting the spacebar a couple of times for the keyboard and you know for everything to kind of like connect again but it seems like the logitech it does it itself with quite a clever system right like it kind of wakes up the bluetooth yeah you know and then it's although it's yeah it's it's um what's funny about it though is that it is the concept is essentially the same as when the um smart connector was on the side of the ipad it's

essentially they they didn't want to change their concept so you're you're basically docking your ipad where the smart connector would attach to the keyboard except now that it's just a magnetic latch so that that's them recycling i think their design from previous cases it's just a magnetic latch. So that's them recycling, I think, their design from previous cases. It's super weird to me. And it leads to a whole bunch of other design issues. I would argue these are design issues, which is you can't adjust the angle. There's only the one angle for the screen. Because it's docking in the middle of that plane that the keyboard sits on, it means that there's a bunch of stuff behind there.

You know, that's not how laptops are shaped. Laptops aren't shaped where there's a flat plane and then somewhere sort of two thirds of the way up past the keyboard, there's another angle that comes out of it. They hinge at the back. And that's not what the Logitech case does, which means it's a little, I mean, it means it's closer to your eyes and the keyboard, which is nice. But the downside of that is also that there's this whole extra stuff behind it that is sitting there and it kind of flaps around and it's not as stable, I think, when you type. Whereas the bridge keyboard, you can adjust it to pretty much any angle like a laptop. And I think that's a design flaw, honestly, of the Logitech. Yeah, the angle ability of the bridge is one of my very

favorite features about this in general right that i like that i can sit with it in laptop position but i can also have it basically like completely perpendicular to each other right like it's just like a big flat plane if i wanted to like lay down and like just have it on my knees right and it's like it i love it's one of the reasons i like just have it on my knees right and it's like i love this one one of the reasons i love the bridge in the first place um and it's probably the thing that i found most frustrating about the smart folio right as one effective position i mean this it has two positions but they're not that different from each other really like they're still only pretty much meant for desk environments right there's only one good one so that's sure sure uh and the the logitech seems to have that same you know that same kind of

problem if that angle works for you and the keyboard you know i think its keyboard is comparable to the bridge um it might be i might like the feel of it slightly better but they're basically both uh fine keyboards better than Apple's current laptop keyboards. The Bridge one is nice because it's got a, you know, it's on the aluminum shell, whereas the Logitech one, like I said, is just sort of plastic. So it doesn't look as nice.

I do think fundamentally the biggest difference between the two models is that the Bridge, because it's based on those two clips that go in the corners of the iPad, you basically slide it in and it's a laptop and slide it back out and it's a tablet again. And Logitech wants you to snap your iPad in this holding case and make it a laptop, which if you are somebody who primarily uses your iPad as a laptop, that's better, right? And you can still take off, you know, pull off those corners and pull it out and use it as a tablet again. But I think if you're using it for extended periods of time in laptop configuration,

that's not a big issue. For me, that's a deal breaker, essentially, because I never want to commit to using my tablet as a laptop for that length of time. I always, even with the bridge keyboard, like when I'm writing, if I go in the backyard to write an article, I will slide the iPad into the bridge keyboard, go out back, write the article, come back in, pull it right back out. I'm done. I only want it for that instance. And that's the great thing about that bridge keyboard is it's a laptop in seconds, and then it's a tablet again in seconds. And Logitech wants you to commit to being in laptop configuration for longer. And that just doesn't, ultimately that doesn't work for me. And I get that other people like Federico might feel different about that.

I love that USB-C exists. This is like one of the great reasons for USB-C. I now don't need two different cables if I need to charge my keyboard, right? Because these are all Bluetooth now. The smart connector is probably dead for third parties at this point. But I love that they can both charge with the same cable, right? I think that's fantastic.

I really love that. Got to do that, right? So it's good that the USB-C, they both charge. Battery life is long on these things. People often who haven't used them ask me about what's the battery life. If you use the backlighting, the battery life is going to be less. And I very rarely use the backlighting. For me, it's basically endless battery life because I occasionally think to myself, I should probably charge that keyboard and i never run out of battery they they last a long time especially if you turn it off um because right turning it on it's so quick like you

don't wait really like you just you just press it the button goes green and you're ready to go again like yeah turning it off if you're not gonna like at the end of the day or whatever is actually not that much of an issue um and i also find especially and this is probably why you see this if you're a person that doesn't always use your ipad in laptop mode you will find yourself turning the keyboard off anyway because then if the keyboard's in another room that's right then it's connected and you you have to like press and hold that little downward chevron button to get the keyboard so you will find yourself turning it off it does like an auto sleep but if it got jostled or bumped or what what happens with me often is that i take it out of the

thing and then i walk away and i forgot to turn it off and because i jostled it it has auto awoken and then i start to type something and no keyboard slides up and i think oh and then i have to go turn it off and that's an advantage of the logitech, right? Is that doesn't happen. Because if it's not in the case attached magnetically, it's off, which is, that is an advantage. But for me, it's not enough, but it is a nice feature. I think, you know, people always ask us to try and give them an opinion between these things. And I think you've already nailed the main difference, right? Like, you can look at these and work out which one do you like the design of more? Which one do you think might have additional functionality that you like? But the key thing here really between these two products is, do you see yourself in a situation

where you will want to not have the iPad and this keyboard frequently? And I think the answer is if you are that person and you will want to use your iPad as a tablet as well, the bridge is probably the one between the two of them because the Logitech device is a little bit more tricky to remove from its case. Right. But if you're, if you're not mode switching that often, if you're like, I put my iPad in a, in a keyboard case during the day, and then at the end of the day, I take it out, then the Logitech is fine for that. I would argue the bridge is fine for take it out then the logitech is fine for that i

would argue the bridge is fine for that too but the logitech is made for that kind of scenario but i don't work that way no and so for me um you know i i don't see a lot of benefit plus it's i mean honestly if it was just as easy to get in and out of the logistic cases as the bridge. I would still prefer the bridge because I think the aluminum feel is better. And I think having it pivot like a laptop at the very back, instead of being in the middle is better and it's more stable. You know, it's got a lot of other things going for it, but that,

that for me is like a key differentiator between the two products it's just like their approaches to how you get the the ipad in and out of the case are completely different but there is a fly in the ointment this time around which i think there wasn't last time with the ipad pro is that the smart folio is probably more of a viable contender here than we had maybe originally given apple credit for yes i i think um i i mentioned this in my review but the truth is having used the smart folio for six months it's good it's way i like it way better than i like the the old smart keyboard. It is a much, much,

much, much better partially just because I can leave it on the old one where it was like thicker halfway through. I hated it so much. Plus the iPad, the big iPad got smaller, which means the keyboard cover got smaller. So it got less bulky,

but you put those two things together and it is the smart keyboard. Folio is a much better product than its predecessor i like it i can work on it i prefer the bridge but and the bridge is cheaper by the way both of these keyboards the logitech is even cheaper the bridge is cheaper than apple's keyboard i would say that makes it harder to justify the smart folio well the smart folio it's really like do you want to carry something that's much lighter than these other two things? Have a keyboard available, but not have the keyboard out. Like the Smart Keyboard Folio is going to give you your thinnest, lightest option where you can always have a keyboard with you without having to carry something that doubles the weight of your iPad.

And you do never, ever, ever have to think about charging it. Right. Exactly, because it's just using the Smart Connector. So I think there are a lot of advantages of the Smart Folio that were not there on the last generation. think about charging it right exactly because it's it's just using the smart connector so there i think there are a lot of advantages of the smart folio that were not there on the last generation i think i feel like it's a better product and therefore is more competitive and that for some users and some use cases it's the best option here um for me it's i mean i wouldn't say it's close for me it gives me a little bit of pause because i've learned because it's i mean i wouldn't say it's close for me it gives me a little bit of pause because i've

learned because it's taken the bridge six months to get this keyboard out i've spent that time with a smart keyboard folio and i've come to appreciate it it's not perfect there are a lot of things i don't like about it but it's pretty good and it's pretty easy to carry it around with you and that makes the case for the bridge a little bit harder in the end i like really feeling like it's a laptop and using the smart keyboard folio on my lap out in like in the backyard or whatever it's not a great experience um i feel like even on a plane using the bridge is a better experience than using the smart keyboard folio because it puts the the ipad further Um, but you know, it's, it's a, a much closer thing than it was before. Oh,

also no function keys on the smart keyboard folio, which means you can't use a key to do brightness and volume and media controls and all of those things too. And that's a down. So that's a negative on the, on the smart keyboard folio. Plus it's, it's more expensive than these,

you know, obviously it's harder to make a super thin, delicate piece of keyboard cover than it is to make a big slab of aluminum with a traditional keyboard in it because the Apple case actually costs more than these other things do. But I think it's a close one.

I think for some people, the smart keyboard folio is the right choice. You mentioned about the iPad being far away from you and that being nicer. It was funny, I was right choice you mentioned about the ipad being far away um from you and that that being nicer it was funny i was talking to federico about the bridge and he he is more keen on the uh the logitech one right now because the ipad is closer to him like he wants the ipad closer i am in the camp of wanting when i'm in this configuration what bridge has which is that there is a wrist rest like like a palm rest right because that feels more natural to me yeah uh having come from from laptops from laptop it feels like a laptop

feels like a macbook yeah and i like that feeling that actually works for me i like the i'm perfectly happy with the ipad being the distance that it is away but that palm rest is missing a trackpad yeah so this is so bad to me is one of the great mysteries of where we are right now and when people say should i buy the bridge keyboard it's like it's my favorite still my favorite although the smart keyboard folio is good logitech one is fine if you are of a particular kind of user case but hanging over all of this is federico saying that i iOS 13 is going to have an accessibility feature that you'll be able to turn on and then you'll be able to use a Bluetooth pointing device. And Bridge already makes this case, you know, a version of this case for the Microsoft Surface. And there's a trackpad in that, you know, palm rest

space. There's a trackpad there, a Bluetooth trackpad, because Microsoft Surface can have a traditional pointing device. And I think to myself, well, this is great. But the moment that I can do a pointing device on my iPad, I don't want this anymore. I want the one with the trackpad. There's nothing to be done about it. And it's not going to ship until the fall. And a lot of people aren't going to see the need for a trackpad on iOS. But until we really know what the deal is, and how it works, and all of that, it's just sort of out there. But I feel like that's the next phase here, right? Is the next phase of this is that I'm going to want that model. Now, the funny thing is, assuming that Apple isn't going to change the industrial design of the iPad Pro for a while now because they just did it,

I think Bridge is going to be able to iterate on this design a lot faster because they've made the design now. It took them six months to do a completely new industrial design, but now they've got it. So assuming that the design of these things doesn't change over the next year or two. Hopefully they'll be able to turn this stuff around faster. I will be interested to see what they do. Um, they clearly have the capability to build that with the track pad in it. And what will they do? Will they want to do that?

Um, how many people are going to want to turn that on? I don't know. I know I want it. Yeah, me too. But we'll say, can, can i give you jason my my mini review of the 12.9 bridge pro yes please what have we not uh talked about that you would like to talk about we have but i just want to run through oh okay i really missed this form factor like a lot yeah i missed it a lot the last six months for sure and i didn't realize how much i

missed it until it was back again this is the true laptop form factor that I'm looking for with the iPad in times when I want that. There has been a big change for me since I used the original Bridge, which is I now use my iPad in a stand a lot more, right? Because that is more ergonomically friendly for me. But the Bridge now is even better for this because now i don't need two keyboards anymore right you put it in the stand and then and then put the bridge just down on the on the flat typing surface because what i've been doing is the smart keyboard got wrapped around it got put in the clear look stand that i use and then i had a magic keyboard but now i don't need to do that because i just use the bridge keyboard it's like that's what makes the that's that's one of the big advantages of bluetooth it's one keyboard now

and i still benefit from all of the things that that has i mean it you know i have all of the function keys and stuff so it's great plus i like the keyboard a lot um it felt super different to me uh than i remembered there is there is a texture on the keys now which is different and but i feel like i had to maybe just reacquaint myself to the travel of this keyboard because bridge say is exactly the same now i would tell them it's not but they have said it is so i believe i think i think what happened is they did a second generation version of their last keyboard and that changed the travel and the keyboard type and then they did a change this time where they changed the finish on the surface of the keys

so it feels a little more like textured and a little less smooth finish to it which i actually do like i don't know if i necessarily prefer one or the other but i have no problem with that texture i i think i preferred the old finish but so it's a two-step thing that you know it's not the it's not the same keyboard as it was two generations ago. They've made these two different changes, but the travel apparently didn't change between the last and this. It feels more like a Magic Keyboard to me than anything. It feels kind of like a Magic Keyboard.

Yeah, it's close. It's definitely close to that, right? It does look so much nicer. They did a great job of matching the color. They had the space gray. And just in general, everything just looks tidier than it did before. You know, like the lines are also good,

right? Like it from a, from an industrial design standpoint really matches the iPad. It looks so much more like a laptop than it did before. Yeah. Well, and it looks like a laptop that doesn't exist, which I find fascinating because the old one was basically the bottom of a

MacBook air. That's how they designed it. They said, what is this going to look like? I mean, they said, let's make it look like the bottom of a MacBook air. This doesn't right.

Because it, it's got the sides and stuff. It really is sort of their vision of what the iPad pro design language would look like in a laptop that doesn't exist. And I think that's kind of fascinating i love the opening and closing uh locks and unlocks the ipad or like yeah wakes the screen it's just a nice touch right like thank you thank you bridge for thinking about putting the magnet in the right place right like i just i like stuff like that um i also so i mean i've 100 i'm in on this right like i gave it a

couple of days like oh well i want to go back to the smartphone no this is this is what i want to use on my my home ipad the jury's still out on the 11 inch right like i don't know how i'm going to feel about that yet i feel like it will be a really good work and travel combination but am i going to like the additional thickness and weight because it definitely adds weight right like this is much heavier than just the ipad uh on its own and if it's it much heavier than just the iPad on its own. And it is heavier than with the Smart Folio, but it feels bigger, right?

Like, so I'm intrigued to see what the 11 inch is going to be like. But for my home setup, right? The 12.9, this is perfect for this now. Like I'm super happy. But I now having just using the iPad without the Smart Folio one, I'm falling in love with the iPad's form factor again

because I'd forgotten how thin and incredible this iPad feels. But now I'm using it more without the Smart Folio on it. So that's also really nice too. I'm using my iPad mostly using the... I have the regular cover, regular case for it, the non-keyboard version and that's really nice because it's much lighter than the one with the keyboard but i've also been using it without at all and that's even nicer so i'm happy to go with no case like it doesn't bother me too much

i have apple care after i destroyed my last one like i'm i'm good to go but i'm really i'm actually really happy i i was wondering right like leading up to the bridge like i like the smartphone yeah right like it's like this is great this is like this is much better than the than the smart keyboard but no they did it again i'm all in like i'm all in i think if for me if you like the original i can't see how you wouldn't like this one too. I think this is a really great product. It's better than the last one in my opinion. I'm very, very happy with it.

I'll follow up on the 11 as well whenever that comes in. Right. Because that's complete. Because we both really like the 10.5 one, but it came too late for us both, right? Right. So I'm really keen to see what it will be like to use the 11 like if it's going to change how i travel with my what my travel ipad right which that one is so right and also the 10.5 now works with the the new ipad air so for people who are not going to get an ipad pro but are going to get an ipad air that bridge 10.5 that they designed

for the 10.5 pro works with the air and it's it's great like it's the it's that previous generation keyboard and we we felt really bad when they made it and it's like it's gonna be discontinued but look that size and shape remained yeah today's episode is also brought to you by our friends over at pingdom why you've been listening to the show how would you know if your website was down because you're so enthralled in this content you're not checking right you're just listening to the show? How would you know if your website was down? Because you're so enthralled in this content, you're not checking, right? You're just listening to upgrade and enjoying it. How would you know if people couldn't click the buy now button or access your latest blog post?

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for their continued support of this show and RelayFM. Now it's time for some hashtag Ask Upgrade questions. Thank you, Jason. The first one comes from Florian. Florian says, I know this is extremely unlikely,

but do you think there is any possibility of Apple announcing any new iPhone version, maybe like the red version of the phone at WWDC, and planning to buy a new iPhone at the end of May? My feeling is they wouldn't announce it probably at WWDC. They could like in a press release or whatever. They could do it anytime, but all it would be is yeah would be like a color variant or something like that i don't think anybody's expecting anything else until the fall yeah i you know florian if you're ready to go and you want to get a phone now and you don't want to wait until the fall you can't wait until the fall just get one now don't worry

about it like it's gonna be fine i would love for there to be rumors out there about a new low-cost iphone like replacing the se that would come out sometime soon, but there have been zero, so I suspect it does not exist. There was some rumors for a while, but they've all stopped. So, I'm not so sure about that. Gareth says, follow-up from the

iPad charging question last week. Do you charge your AirPods case regularly or just when it's low? With my usage pattern, it lasts long enough that I always find myself taken by surprise when it finally runs out. For me, it's exactly what I said about the keyboards, which is I think about it and think, oh, I've used my iPad or my AirPods a bit. I maybe should charge them.

I very rarely get to the situation where the case is out. I do sometimes get to the case where the AirPods are out. I do sometimes get to the case where the, you know, the AirPods are out, but the case is very rarely out. And now that I've got that new case, what I often will do is I'll use them for, to take a walk or, or whatever, or work in the backyard. And, uh, this little thing will go off my brain and say, Hey, you haven't charged those in a while. And I, um, during the day, my wife is at work. one of our charging pads is open and I'll just set it on there for a while. And so for me, it really is like I just have, rather than having a cycle for it, I just remind myself every now and then, oh, you should probably top up the AirPods case. And that has worked 100% of the time so far.

It is just worth noting in this hashtag and alsoupgrade segment that iOS 12.3 is out. So there's some breaking news. Release lasers have happened. I wanted to just mention it because it includes the Apple TV app and like that's launching on TVs today as well. Like this is gonna pop up on the Samsung TVs today. So it's just worth noting

because it also brings with it the channels and all of that kind of stuff. Right. So we'll have to kind of follow up check that out we didn't do any upstream is this upstream mike did upstream happen in the middle of ask upgrade sure um anyway that's that's weird so it's uh yeah we'll check it out and and find out but i'm looking forward to seeing how that goes i wonder i have a roku tv so i i keep wondering when the when i to get that Roku TV update happens. Probably not until Apple's TV service launches, I would guess.

Yeah, Samsung got an exclusivity period, clearly, I think, for being Samsung. Our next question comes from Ace. Do you think that the new Mac... Oh, I didn't answer about the AirPods, did I? No. Basically the same as you. Just sometimes I'm sitting on my desk and I'm like, oh, I'll just plug that in because

I don't really have any wireless charging stuff around me. But I have a lightning cable just on my desk all the time. So I just plug my AirPods case in. My AirPods run out. They're actually AirPods themselves and I just charge them up. That happens every now and then. But I've never, ever, ever had the case die on me ever on any of my airpods because i just i

don't charge it like mindfully it's very mindless it's like i'll plug it in come sit now i might as well just plug it in so ace's question was do you think that a new mac pro could have two processors both arm and intel to help start the transition. That would sure be fun though, right? Wouldn't that be fun? I like this idea. It will, because it'll have presumably a T2 or a T3 or whatever. Sure, but let's imagine it is the Jason Snell A11M or A13M. I think that would be a fascinating thing, but it sounds very much like not a great, like that would be a weird like developer transition product i don't know i i i no i'll say no i think it's too i think it's too complex and you can build you can build all these apps to run on intel in the simulator already that's how it works i don't see what you

get really from having an arm processor in there as well if you've got the intel processor in there i just i i'm kind of not seeing it i feel like the mac pro is a great system to just have a super powerful intel processors and and uh just do your work on those while the arm kind of creeps across the line from the laptops. I agree, it's incredibly unlikely, but I just like the thought of it anyway. It isn't the right product to start the transition with.

A laptop is where it probably should be first, but I still just like the idea of it. DC Fan says, how does one stickarize their laptop? More specifically, how do you go about actually putting them on? Is there a system? Do you have a particular ritual um i i've gotten over wanting to defile my perfect computer but i need some advice all right so i want to this is for me

mostly i know jason you have uh you put the little rainbow stickers on your laptops which are beautiful you find those on etsy and places like that can't you you get a little apple rainbow logo but i am known for stickerizing my products um so first off i would say because everybody asks me mike where do you buy your stickers i don't have a place anymore i used to use sticker mules marketplace because you could just buy stickers there with various designs but they close that down um so now these days i find stickers in places right so like i might go to some kind of store and I buy some stickers because I think they look cool.

Or like, I'm like, you know, maybe I follow some artists on Instagram and I buy their stickers that they're selling directly, or I just make them myself. And this isn't something I necessarily recommend for everyone, but I have more than enough opportunities in my life to give out stickers to people. So I'll make some designs, you know, when we're coming up to WWDC or whatever, and I'll just get them out.

So, um, I like that. We should make some, uh, maybe make some different upgrade stickers. We'll see. We might have some stuff for,

for WWDC, but, um, for actually putting them on really, I, I just go with how it feels. One thing I don't do, and I really recommend people do not do is put all of their stickers facing one orientation. You've got to mix it up. One thing I don't do, and I really recommend people do not do, is put all of their stickers

facing one orientation. You've got to mix it up. You've got to really, like, so it looks good from every angle. I think that's the right way to do it. That's the way that I like it. I think it looks better that way. I'm also overlap. You've got to overlap them as well. I feel like you've really got to go for it.

I'm excited because all of my stickers for my iPad Pro pro are on my smart folio so now i have a blank canvas so i'm going to be re-stickering so i'm excited about that um i also don't you know i use my like like i just use the stickers right like even though there are stickers on my smart folio i only had them once but like whatever like they live there now and now i have i can get all new stickers i'm always collecting stickers i see them out i buy them um it's just a thing and jeff wants to know finally today how are you liking ahoy telephone on your airpods i remember how much you disliked tapping so i don't like the tapping uh to activate siri

yes i've heard that do you know, how do you like it? Do you use, are you using Ahoy Telephone on your iPods? I haven't used it once. Okay. I've used it a few times. I've had it go off by accident a few times. I'm happy that it's there, but I'm not finding myself using it all the time. Because I'm still having the problem sometimes where I have them in my ears,

but I'm not playing anything so I give the command and then my HomePod goes off and it's like, you're not doing what I want this isn't what I want so anyhow, if you'd like to send in a question to help us close out the show, you can always send in a tweet

with the hashtag AskUpgrade and they go into a document for us to pull from if you'd like to find our show notes for this week's episode, you can go to relay.fm upgrade245 You can find Jason online. He is at jsnl

on Twitter. You can go to sixcolors.com and theincomparable.com for more of Jason's work. I am iMike. I-M-Y-K-E. You can follow me online. And this show is a part of many shows here at RelayFM. Go to relay.fm slash shows.

You can find Upgrade and many other wonderful related programs. Thanks once more to our sponsors this week, Luna Display, Pingdom, and ExpressVPN. And we'll be back next week. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow. Goodbye, Jason Snow. Oh. We'll be back next week. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow. Goodbye, Jason Snow. Oh.