Upgrade - 248: Seven Layer Burrito of Innovation

Episode Date: June 3, 2019

The WWDC 2019 keynote was packed full with new announcements. Now, live from San Jose, Jason and Myke come together to talk about iOS 13, macOS Catalina, the introduction of iPadOS, and the new Mac Pro.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 248 today's show is brought to you by luna display squarespace and express vpn my name is mike hurley and i am joined across this podcasting table in san j, California by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason Snell. Mike, I love it when we do upgrade live and in person. It's the best. And there's no better live and in person upgrade than WWDC upgrade. We are like two hours removed from the keynote.

And there was a good reason for that because you actually got to spend a little bit of time with the brand new Mac Pro. I touched a Mac Pro. But we're going to talk about that a little later on in the episode. We are eschewing most of our usual format today because there's way too much to talk about. However, let's talk about the draft. So in our last episode, in case you knew around here, we did a predictions draft where we will go through a list of things and score them and then it comes out on the other end and we see who won. I don't think we need to dive into this one because we have done a lot of adjudication in the background.

I will say, first off, I've got a few statements, opening statements about the draft. One is, this was, I'm a little worried that we are a little too predictable. I know that you on Connected last week did the Ricky Picks where you made things that are extra special risky. I want to consider possibly forcing us to make some riskier picks in some of our picks down the road. Because I feel like part of it is this was packed and all of these things that we thought would happen basically happened. And so our scores, I think this was the best performance we've ever done on a draft.

Yes, this was the best performance. I understand what you the draft this was the best performance i you know i understand what you're saying but i just think that we picked well because we had a lot of things available to us and a lot of things that felt possible i just wonder if maybe there's one or two picks that should be forced out of our comfort zones just to make it more interesting i'm always up for adapting the rules because the score as um as we agreed on in the end, after some adjudication, we did have to call in Stephen Hackett to make a judgment. The scores ended up nine to nine. Nine to nine.

So the things that the two of us did not get, Jason, we did not score a new TV-related partnership. Yes. The BBC, I could say something about the BBC taking pictures of fish, but that was not what I meant. No, that's not it. No. And Apple Arcade being shown off so

there was a moment in the presentation where tim spoke about apple arcade and you and there was like a moment in the tv demo where they showed an apple arcade game but i think really honestly even though i really wanted the point that was not what i was talking about i was expecting there to be much more about apple arcade in this inade in the overall presentation, which there wasn't. So that one, we lost in that. So we went to- I sent an overcast clip to Stephen Hackett. You did.

And he said, that's not a pick. So we didn't have to get into it. But that means that we were tied. We were tied. And so that means we went two to tiebreaker. How many times did Tim Cook appear on stage? I think we both counted four, but it definitely wasn't more than five. I got okay but it was the same as last year and i got up

to five yep and i i think in the end mike you me winning on a tie break instead of you came down to the fact that tim presented tv os instead of handing it off to someone else if he had handed it off to someone else it would have been fine tv os to someone else, it would have been fine. So TVOS is my nemesis, basically. But he just said, look, I'm not going to even bother bringing somebody out for TVOS. We're going to just move on. That's a shame.

But anyway, I will say, congratulations on your first WWDC win. Thank you. Congratulations on your second draft win this year. It's not looking good for me. Yeah, but this is the closest. There's an asterisk next to this one because it was with a tiebreak

and it was disputed and adjudicated and all of that. If I'm going to lose. Together, we did a pretty good job. Also, we totally messed up the name of Mac OS, but that was a bonus point. Who cares? Catalina wasn't even on the list.

Catalina Wine Mixer. That keeps popping into my head. I looked it up. It's a joke from the movie Step Brothers. So my theory, by the way, Catalina is because the thing formerly known as marzipan is called Catalyst. head i looked it up it's a joke from the movie step brothers so my theory by the way catalina is because the thing formerly known as marzipan is called catalyst so it's catalyst in catalina so more cats with os okay i can see that i did notice that that like there was a bunch of

cat sounds uh-oh they've returned to cats yes it's now just the word cat then other words that come after it so cataract catapact, catapult, catamaran, macOS catamaran. Oh my God. Here we go. We're doing it, everyone. No, let's do this. Let's talk about the keynote.

We're not going to necessarily go in time order. There's actually massive sections that we're not going to talk about today. It's too much. We're not going to talk about watchOS. We're not going to talk about tvOS. But I did want to talk about the intro with you because it's kind of upstreamy one tim came out and spoke a bunch

about services which seemed like a complete waste of time after a really wonderful video which i think was a i like the video it was it was showing like a connection with developers like we understand your struggle and you go like setting it up like that and you're like oh now i'm going to talk for 15 minutes about something you cannot participate in and here's a trailer of a tv show right so i so it reminded me of uh i think last year or the year before where they did that trailer the one that that craig hockenberry and jim dalrymple were in was that last year uh two years i think that was two years ago. All right. So what struck me about the intro video this year is that I think they were much more careful

about the tone of it than they were two years ago, where they had kind of a jokey tone with kind of like people who've been in the community a long time that you recognize. And this time what they tried to do is like they showed a lot of people in different countries. showed men and women they showed people of different races ages they different ages they didn't make nerd jokes they didn't show i i know that they showed people working late into the night sometimes but i felt that it was delicate and they were not saying

um you have no work life balance in fact showing um the one guy holding the baby and all of that like i think they i think this was something that was discussed at a deeper level than maybe previous and it had a beautiful tagline which was while the world sleeps you dream yeah which is just so wonderful and i like it it's better i understand the i'd like the thought of like oh they're showing people working late and crunching. What they're showing is people that want to make something happen for themselves. These are probably people that have day jobs and they want to make an app. It's meant to be inspirational

and I think they did a better job of making it inclusive. Somebody who lived a life like that to try and get to where I wanted to go. I like the message, but I think it was kind of crazy to then just segue into this trailer. The trailer, though, does look really good. Yeah, I think that's why they showed it.

It looks really good. I think they got some stick from people about not showing anything at their services event. And they figured a sci-fi series from Ron Moore from Battlestar Galactica. And I like how they mentioned Star Trek because he was a producer on Next Generation and Deep Space Nine and Voyager, maybe briefly. And so they wanted to use Star Trek as a little imprimatur. Although in the Tim Cook voice, it became Star Trek, which I don't think is Star Trek. I think that's just how he says Star Trek. He likes Star Trek.

Star Trek. So I thought it looked great. And Stephen Hackett was like five seats down from me, so I didn't get to exchange a view from him. But as somebody who's a space fan, it sounds like they're going hard into all history of like the people you know and the NASA you know, but they got beat to the moon and what happens next. It looks really good. It is cool. It looks very carefully designed, like the spacecraft look right and all that.

It looks great. It looks really good. I think ultimately Tim saw it and was like, this is great. Let's show it to developers. Yeah. So they did. It's kind of like, oh, we're going to give them the Mac Pro later on. Like, oh, it won't be a problem.

They'll be fine with it then. Yeah. Okay. Let's just jump into iOS. Let's jump in. iOS. You mean the operating system that runs iPhone and iPod Touch? Yeah.

Yeah. Let's pause that for a minute. So look, we all knew that dark mode was pretty on schedule for this year that was my first pick in the draft right that was yeah because it felt like it was late anyway right like it feels like we should have had it for years and years and years uh but we've i don't know we got it now um i'm really intrigued to see more information from developers you know like once all the sessions start happening, how hard, how easy is it going to be

to implement as a third-party developer to make your app look that way? We don't know any of that information yet. The State of the Union is happening right now as we record. So I'm sure that some of that information is getting out there. As always, you know, we're getting this out as quick as we can. But they'll need to do some work. However, I was taking notes in an app in a dark mode that information is getting out there. As always, we're getting this out as quick as we can. But they'll need to do some work.

However, I was taking notes in an app in a dark mode while also tweeting from an app with a dark mode in iOS. So I feel like a lot of app developers have already done the work to build their own dark mode. And now they're going to be able to just flip that over. But yes, there will also have to be some dark mode probably all the time. All of the system stuff looked way nicer. The kind of dark frosted as opposed to... I think it looked fantastic. dark mode probably all the time. All of the system stuff looked way nicer.

You know, like the kind of like dark frosted as opposed to like the... I think it looked fantastic. I'm not a fan of dark mode in Mojave, but I think on my iPhone and maybe my iPad, but certainly on my iPhone, I will give it a try. You can schedule it too. That's great.

That's actually one of the big things because that was... I actually flipped all my stuff into dark mode during the keynote when they dropped the lights. Because the white screens were too much. So being able to schedule that and also presumably flip it over on control center. Yeah. But I like the toggle part of it too.

I think that's really great. But yeah, so dark mode looks fantastic. But I don't think there's much more to say about it. Let's just keep moving on. What did you think about the improvements to photos? Well, you know, when you write a book about photos and you see massive changes to photos, I literally sat there going, well, there's my summer.

Oh boy. No, it's great. It's great. Photos hasn't been reconceived since it was made. I really liked the UI, like the floating kind of selection bar that you would tap on. And they're trying really hard to find ways to apply that

machine learning stuff to get garbage out of the way because it's totally true. You see too many duplicates. You take eight shots of people posing together. You don't need to see all eight shots. You know, by default when you're just kind of scanning through, you only need to see one and having it throw out screenshots and stuff like

that i have a lot of those because i write about this stuff but people take screenshots and you don't want to do that so it's good this actually means though like are they deleting them are they just hiding them from general view like they're hiding so there's an all photos tab but if you're in any of the other tabs it doesn't show all photos by default it's showing you kind of like the ones that it's selected as highlights okay it's it doesn't i i really am looking forward to digging into it because it strikes me as being um an extension of what they've been doing with the last couple of versions of photos where they're trying to rethink no they're really just trying to you know the in the end what what the deal is with photos is everybody's got too

many photos yes and the goal is to try to find ways with machine learning to float up things that you want to see that you would otherwise never see and they've been doing that for a while now and i think this version they got to do an interface refresh to kind of like push that uh more forward than the old interface allowed them to do um and do editing tools which are great you know there's more more functions yeah video yeah the the um ios version was behind the mac version on editing tools uh you could do a lot of stuff but there was still stuff that was missing and then the video thing i mean one of the things i like about uh craig federighi's on stage performance presence is that he's jokey in a way where he's allowed to poke fun at Apple

in a way that Apple doesn't do a lot. Yeah. But I think he has the personality that he can carry it off in a way that some of the other presenters I don't think would be able to. I agree. I agree. He has got that fun-loving guy persona and they've used him

as a vehicle for jokes for years now. You could look at it be like oh that lovable scamp like he's doing it on his own and no one sees his presentation exactly and and also i think with uh wwdc especially he connects with developers they not only do they cheer him because he's like their guy but he gets them on a level that um that maybe some of the other people don't because they're they're in product marketing or something like that. But he's a computer nerd. He's seen as one of us. Exactly.

And so that allows him to do things like talk about the fact, like later he talked about some other things that we'll get to. But here, you know, the ability to rotate video where he was sort of like, oh, you can rotate a video now.

That's nice, right? I thought that they messed up the presentation right because they started showing video and the videos in the wrong orientation i was like oh that doesn't look very good although i see that all the time right and then they rotated and then you apply uh different filters and stuff too it's great so i'm glad i will dig in there will probably be like 50 other things they didn't mention one theme of this keynote and you saw it on the live stream we saw it when we were there, it never stopped. It was a ridiculous pace.

And I will say, I think it's the densest keynote from Apple I've ever seen. It reminded me of two years ago when they showed off the new iPad stuff, right, in 11, and they showed off the iMac Pro. That was two years ago, right?

Yeah. It reminded me of that one because it was like that year, iPad stuff right in 11 and they showed off the iMac Pro that was two years ago right yeah it reminded me of that one because it was like that year the kind of the phrase that the joke was this was the year everybody got what they wanted and it feels like that was the case again this year but there was more and and they they just didn't stop there there are there were multiple features that I thought they could have spent 20 minutes on that they spent less than five. Reminders. I feel like I know nothing about a brand new big application. They showed off a bunch of features that look really exciting.

Kind of like a bullet point, right? But I haven't gotten my head around it all yet. So I still need to dig in about reminders because I can see something's changed. I can see it's huge. But they just blasted through. That was a big surprise to me. One that they did spend a lot of time on

because it lent in with privacy was sign in with apple this is kind of fascinating yeah it's definitely a middle finger at facebook and google who they put on the slide but it's the idea that they know app developers i think of it i mean this is going to be on the web too but they're thinking of it from the perspective of like app developers want to set up an account and they're using these easy setup techniques that basically authorize you through someone else's thing but then it's a privacy hole and the reason you do that is because then you are not responsible right so like as a developer you don't want to be the one responsible for dealing with the user creation, the account creation, all of the data, and then potentially any risks, security or otherwise, of holding that information, right? So you hand over the ability for the login to be held by a Google or a Facebook, and then you can build on their tools.

But now Apple's doing it instead, and it gives people more of an option. doing it instead and it gives people more of an option and what looks like a it looks like a much more private and more secure way of doing it the fake email address thing is genius yeah so you're getting you're getting facebook and google out of the game of being able to use um their easy login in exchange for data points for users and the email thing dan moran was sitting next to me and he actually wrote a piece about this, I think earlier this year, about how this was a way for Apple to have its commitment to privacy kind of redoubled in terms of email. So Apple saying, if you don't want to give these people your email, your actual email address, you can give them a routing email address that's

randomly generated. And if you're tired of seeing the emails from them, you just turn that off and it's gone. And so if they want to use it or resell it or whatever, it doesn't matter. It's been thrown into a black hole, basically, at Apple and it's gone. I mean, what a great way to find out what companies are selling your data.

If you see, like, I don't know if they exposed the email address that it's sent to, right? Like, I don't know if they expose the email address that it's sent to, right? Like, I don't know if you as a user will get to see it if it's forwarded to you. But I think that it's absolutely fascinating as a thing to do. And I'm really keen to see if it's something that catches on. I'm keen to see what happens there.

But I figure if you are a developer already offers these systems then why not do it and as a user it's there i have some questions about like so do i lose all of the ability to manage that account at that point like does it just all go to apple like i'm not so sure i'm keen to see how that ends yeah i don't know but i mean it makes sense especially on apps i i do they mentioned that it'll also work on on any device and on the web yeah that is really interesting because that that's also apple saying we will we will guard your privacy even on the web if if websites want to use this as the way for you not to have to register for an account and put in your a new password and all of that. The websites implement this. We're not tracking you.

And that's going to be a bonus over using Facebook or Google. Definitely. I was concerned before this event about shortcuts. I thought shortcuts would not make it into the keynote this year. It kind of did. Kind of.

It got kind of conflated into Siri a little bit did kind of it got it got kind of rolled conflated into siri a little bit god i mean what makes sense i mean i think it's in the siri organization right but but what what shortcuts got was very interesting is that it's built in now yes that's fascinating to me um i really wonder what made that change i got a theory go for it which is that um they added triggers they added shortcut automation with things like times there is automation in shortcuts but i do not know the extent of it yet uh our friend jammers in the chat room says automations include time location opening specific apps and nfc. Oh my god. So my guess is that

they once shortcuts ascends to a higher level like that, they need to just sort of ride with the system. Because it's like HomeKit. I think the theory is once an app is so tied into the system that individual system updates could potentially cause changes

in the app, they want to keep them in sync. They don't want the app and the system to individual system updates could potentially cause changes in the app. They want to keep them in sync. They don't want the app and the system to ride separately. The shortcuts app has been updated a lot. Yeah, and it's not going to get updates except dot revision of iOS updates. Although those dot updates happen

and they could keep sneaking them in there. Yeah, they can. That would be the hope. But the exchange is power. power yeah time of day alarm apple watch workout arrive leave location connect to car play airplane mode this is all stuff that was not in the demo but is on the website because again we're in the bubble here where we have not been able and the by the way the apple websites you showed me before we started like even the apple websites it's hard to get through because there's so much detail there. I've never seen the amount of detail.

So like when you go to the preview pages for iOS or whatever, you have your kind of like overview, but then there is a tab called all new features and it lists everything and it's a lot. Enormous. Which is exciting though, because I will be digging through more of that but um there's also a reference to more conversational in shortcuts i'm intrigued to see

what that means yeah it sounds like there's some interaction that's possible in terms of like a follow-up question where you give an answer um i don't know exactly but it's uh the people on the shortcuts reddit have gone mad with as they would details and digging in and this is one of those things that um we'll bookmark and next week's episode we will be losing our minds over this stuff in detail memoji no more it's clearly memoji did you notice that no everyone was Everyone was calling it Memoji. Not Memoji. Everybody's just gotten over it. Memoji. Memoji. So Casey wins because Casey called it Memoji.

Everyone laughed at him. Yep. It's Memoji. You can use Memoji on your polybook or your Macbook Mini Pro. I wondered if it was a slip up but everyone called it Memoji so that's what it's called now. I've really enjoyed the, uh,

opening video that they had by the two kind of, uh, fashion and beauty. Yeah. That was hilarious. When it started, I was like, Oh,

I don't know, but they killed it. Yeah. Adding AirPods in as an accessory. Yeah. No, I think it's really good. And I was also thinking I had two thoughts during that.

One is, um, when they were talking about makeup, because these are beauty and fashion vloggers, basically. My daughter loves those. And I thought, oh, you know, this is so great, but she's not going to be able to use the makeup and accessories because... And then they said, which is logical,

but Apple doesn't need to extend features back to old hardware right like they talk about having um the phones that are three years old run okay and they did focus the first thing they did on ios was talking about speed again which i think is really great like face id is faster and and apps launch faster and apps are smaller when they download like they clearly are also focused on that. But what they don't usually do is extend features backward several years. But with Memoji, because you don't need a face ID scanner

to put a character in those poses, they've extended Memoji building back to older devices, which means my daughter, even though she doesn't have an iPhone 10 or an iPad Pro, she can now build a Memoji and use the stickers if she wants to. And that's really cool because that's a thing that, of course,

a lot of times it happens that we look at a feature and we're like, well, Apple could totally have rolled that back two versions, but they chose not to. There's no technical reason why. and here we see apple doing it and rolling that feature backward so that devices that couldn't support memoji now can that's cool and i got exactly what i wanted which was uh pre-made memoji stickers memoji stickers thank you uh with all of the faces in there. Something I'm a little bit

unclear on right now, it made it look like they were going to be in the emoji keyboard and could be used anywhere. Yeah, that's what Tim said, is that those poses can be in the emoji keyboard. On the website, it says that Memoji automatically becomes sticker packs that live in your keyboard, so you can use them in messages, mail third-party apps i'm not sure what it means i don't know what the details are but i desperately want emoji with my face right that's what i want yeah so if they haven't given me that that's what i want but it looked like it was in the keyboard so i need to see exactly what's going on with this but the idea that if i could send all emoji now with my own face oh boy yeah oh boy watch out everyone because my emoji is coming for you a new feature where you can upload a emoji pack and then

your emojis are all you okay i'm very excited about this i'm very excited about this but i think from a pure like ios on the iphone, I think those are the big things. Yeah, I think so. Like I said, the focus on speed and performance of... They didn't mention older systems, but I think it's there. I think that that was their message, that they wanted to restate again, that they have that ability to try and get this thing to keep running faster, that they haven't given up on that.

And I thought that was good. Other things, swipe keyboard. Yep, that was good. It's a long time coming, but I'm glad they finally basically accepted that, yes, you can do that. you know basically accepted that yes you can do that and uh as much as i like the google gboard keyboard i keep going back to the apple keyboard because gboard fails in a bunch of other ways that have to do more with the fact that it's not the primary system keyboard and so to have swiping on the primary system keyboard is great the only thing that i miss is that gboard has emoji search and i can't believe they haven't added emoji search i it seems like such

an easy thing to have like i can it feels like it's not a particularly difficult feature because they've already tagged all the emoji with words um i i have no idea that that seems so wild to me and and some of the stuff is like giving trying to catch up to Google. Um, like the map stuff would look around is street view basically, but it's stuff that was missing that they're adding. So that's good. Um, it looked really good to the animation. It did like,

it has nice fit and finish. Nice touch from, from Apple's perspective. Um, they did just as they had the message about performance, they had the message about privacy. They, they want to have a privacy message whenever they talk about a new product. so in this case we got like there's this uh you know you can share

location once you can set that for an app just this one time they give you a report about background tracking which is interesting because this week there was that new york times story about how these apps still wake up in the middle of the night and report your location so you can you can be aware of what they're doing blocking apps from using wi-fi or bluetooth to scan around you in order to infer your location i thought that was very clever and uh building a 10-day recording buffer for free with your iCloud account security because so many of those security cameras try to sell you on these video storage things, and then you're trusting your video to some random company. And this is Apple saying, we will do it and not look.

And you get 10 days of recording for free. That is, I think, bigger than it seems. Because as somebody who has bought some of these cameras, I would be much more comfortable. Not only I'm already paying Apple for storage, so the fact that I just get 10 days of storage is great, but the fact that it's sort of an Apple who has no desire or need to look through my video footage, I really, um, I like that. And then, um, the, it came in the Mac, but it covers these other products too. It's the find my update where they're doing a thing that's kind of like some of these other tracker devices, but the difference being that they're doing a thing that's kind of like some of these other tracker devices but the difference being that they're sending out a little ping saying i exist and other apple devices see

that and it's all private and anonymized and encrypted apple have just created the best tracking system available on the planet and they have solved the problem of oh no my my thing wasn't on wi-fi and so i can't find it now it's like it doesn't need to be on wi-fi if it's lost somewhere and you know in a couch cushion and it wasn't on wi-fi as long as it had a battery and was pinging at some point and there was an apple device around which is pretty much everywhere yep it will be on a map and you can find it that's gonna save people so much hassle like it's that is unbelievable as a feature to add and and it's not new idea and we talked about this a few months ago when this rumor happened it's not a new idea but the difference is that if you're a third-party app hope and you're hoping to sell a few thousand of this the chances that

anybody's gonna see your whatever is very low but if you can literally have every single apple device or whatever 85 that are running the current os see your thing and report back if they spot it um that's what makes a difference yeah most definitely all right let's take our first break and we'll thank our friends over at luna display for their support of this show they are the makers of the only hardware solution that will turn your iPad into a wireless display for your Mac, meaning you will have a second display that is super portable with basically zero lag and stunning image quality. I've been a huge fan of Luna Display. I've been using mine for months and months now.

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for 10% off your own Lunar Display. Go there right now and upgrade your setup. You're going to love it. lunardisplay.com, promo code UPGRADE for 10% off. Our thanks to Lunar Display for their support of this show and all of RelayFM. The surprise of all surprises. I was blown away. I think I screamed at this moment, as I was told that in the keynote area, many other people did too. iPadOS.

Yeah, so it broke 10 minutes before the keynote. Really? I didn't see it. Here's the thing. So we talk about where the leaks come from, right? They come from images that are updated too quickly or at a guessable URL. And we always say, come on, Apple. The fact is Apple is so big. Federico and I kind of were talking about this.

Apple's so big that a leak, you plug one leak, another leak springs out. So minutes before the keynote, Apple updated its terms and conditions. So it's the lawyers. One of the things that the terms and conditions said is tvOS, watchOS, iOS, iPadOS, and macOS. I'm so pleased I missed this.

Somebody has a script that just runs a diff on the terms and conditions every time they change. they're like oh ipad os and so it's too bad because that would have been an amazing surprise it was for me because i didn't see that leak but we saw that just before it got started and federico and i were both like yeah makes sense and and actually before we get into the details of it um i think when Apple's got a shared app platform, right, where you're going to be able to write these apps and they're going to deploy on iPhone and iPad and Mac now, and iPad in many ways is getting closer to the Mac,

there comes a point when iPad and iPhone can't really hang together exactly anymore. And there's no point, you know, you differentiate Mac. Why don't you differentiate iPad when they're different? And I think where the rubber meets the road here is when you start introducing these multi-fingered gestures that make sense on a big screen, but don't make sense on a little iPhone screen.

I mean, you could argue that drag and drop started to strain this, where Apple felt like drag and drop wasn't good enough for the iPhone. I mean, you could argue that drag and drop started to strain this where Apple felt like drag and drop wasn't good enough for the iPhone. I disagree. I think that you should be able to drag and drop between apps on the iPhone. But the more I wonder internally at Apple, if there came a point where somebody was like, we need to do these, you know, you can do a three finger pinch and do a copy and a paste. They're like, oh, but that changes the copy and paste behavior, and on an iPhone, do you really want to do that? You start to say, how many features

do we have that we have to say, this is on the iPad, this is on the iPhone, before you have to break them apart and say, you know what? Big screens are different from little screens. When I saw the copy and paste gesture, I thought, that is the kind of thing. Maybe that wasn't the straw that broke the camel's back, thought that is the kind of thing. Maybe that wasn't the straw that broke the camel's

back, but that's the kind of thing that means you should separate these two. Yeah. So these new gestures, well, it comes with a bunch of stuff around text selection, so no more magnifying glass when you're trying to select text. You can drag the

cursor around by tapping on it and dragging it. Yeah, I want to see what that's like because i've gotten so used to tapping somewhere where i want to place the cursor and if that's gone and i have to like hunt for the cursor well what they want is like a quick tap but what they don't want you to do is like tap and hold it too long because then that's going to start a selection so that and that feels like one of those things that they may tweak over the summer right where they they turn it out to people and it turns out, oh, this interaction doesn't work quite right. And they'll tweak it a little bit. Yeah, it wasn't good to see the presenter struggling.

Yeah, because again, if I have to find the blinking text cursor and then go grab it and move it somewhere else, I'm not sure that's a better experience. I'm intrigued. Than tapping? The text selection stuff, I think the jury's out on but the copy cut copy and paste gestures i think fantastic yeah and and having i've used those text selection gestures in like the kindle app all the time and they actually are incredibly intuitive and i i know why copy and paste was done the way it was where you've got the contextual menus and all of that but i i hope that this is a better system

and we'll you got to try it out because this is going to be one of those things where i'm sure they went through 50 different iterations of it and once you get the feel for it you might say oh yes this makes perfect sense i'm excited that they're trying something different rather than just sort of sticking what we got with ios 3 or whatever slide over on steroids. Yeah, slide over is banned from the Baseball Hall of Fame now. It's incredible. Yeah, that was an interesting idea that how do you deal with slide over

coming and going, which has been a problem with slide over for a while now. And the answer is slide over is like an iPhone. Yeah. So with slide over, you can bring up a multitasking view

in the slide over or you can just swipe left to right. It's just like using an iPhone. It's like you've got a little iPhone floating over your iPad. It even had its own home indicator. Yeah. Yeah. It's literally an iPhone floating there. What a genius way to deal with that, right?

Isn't that smart? Right? Like we have this system in the iPhone that people are used to now. So we'll just build it in as a window on the iPad now as well. And now that apps can exist in multiple places, that is just a great way to deal with it. You can have notes in SlideOver, and you can have a bunch of notes windows open,

and you can just use them all and just swipe between them. And I'm so excited about the split view stuff, the multiple spaces, being able to split an app in half and use it side by side on each other or take one of those views and put it with something else and then Apex Bose.

That actually went further than I thought they would go. I didn't think they would commit to the idea that an app can run essentially as many windows as you want, not just in split view, but in different sets of split views or different windows where you could essentially have multiple iterations of the app open at once. And my thought was, well, that gets really confusing. And what do you do when you want to switch between them and

the answer is they also build app expose so that you can get between them again devils in the details i was kind of expecting they were going to say you can tap and hold on the notes icon in the dock and it'll show you options um but instead it's sort of like what you do is you end up in multitasking view for notes and you can pick them which we'll see how that works but you need to be able to you can't be chasing windows of an app across different spaces right that gets really weird really fast so um i'm impressed that they went there because i thought that they were going to keep it simpler than that where it's like well you can have two open at once but you can't have two open at once and it opens somewhere else and they said sure you can you absolutely can so it looks like the overall design of uh widgets the uh notification center lock screen widgets

whatever you call them these days i can never remember the actual name for them now there there are widgets yeah but they have today we have a view but they're widgets but the the overall design of them has been simplified like in january look a lot cleaner and that's really nice because now they'll be able to be pinned to your home screen. Yeah, so the way they did this is very smart. They tightened up the home screen a little bit. But when we all tried to imagine, we tried to imagine like what would it be like? And there was a lot of like, well, you know, are you going to do free placement of icons?

Is it going to be like Android? You know, Android widgets are not great. Whenever I use Android, I'm like, oh, I get to use widgets. And then I put the widgets on, I'm like, they're too big. And so you use the space of the iPad screen and you basically say if you want to keep, those widgets are great. They're actually incredibly powerful and they're out of sight and you forget that they're there. So you can just swipe and have them live next to your icons and all the

icons just get a little closer together they're kind of like buddying up they're staying warm huddling together for warmth and then you have widgets and the time you know that like hanging on the screen there that's great because that makes those widgets just having them in your face i think is a is a powerful thing. New Apple Pencil tools. So there's a palette that's in some apps like Notes and stuff that can be freely moved around, which is really nice, right? Like there's like a kind of a window that can be moved around. And there's a new markup feature, which is really great.

So using the Apple Pencil, you swipe up and you can take effectively a screenshot. You can mark it up, but you can also look at, let's say you're on a web page, it will capture the entire web page, right? So you don't have to scroll yeah that's so good i mean that's like a utility on the mac to do something like that and they're like no just let's have the idea of a whole document or a partial document and you can mark up either yep um and then you can and developers can implement this now there's like a apple pencil kit effectively i don't remember the exact name of it. That's a big deal, too, because that solves the problem

of everybody having to try and reinvent the wheel in terms of pencil input. It will allow more applications to put Apple Pencil support in where they otherwise wouldn't have. Right, because they're not going to build it themselves. Exactly. If you're an application that is a note-taking app, well, that's part of your job, maybe, to do it on your own up until now.

Maybe you'd still want to because you can have different features. Yeah, I think it's called Pencil Kit. Janley in the chat is mentioning. But now you can imagine many other types of applications. It'd be like, oh, it'd be nice to have this mode in. Well, let's just use Apple's tools and it's done, which is wonderful. Sidecar. So we just read an ad for Luna Display.

This is Apple's version of Luna Display. Yeah, I don't... It's all about the details. I wonder how this works. I wonder what its limitations are. I wonder if it's just Luna Display. It looked like it. I mean, honestly, it sounded like they were reading a Luna Display ad.

So what I always say about this is that when something gets Sherlocked, generally, Apple leaves... It doesn't always happen. It didn't happen with Sherlock. Generally, and Watson, I guess, was the name of the app that got sherlocked ironically the um generally what happens is apple hits something in the middle and there's stuff at the edges that is not worth apple doing and so for a company like uh luna Display those guys are going to have to find the edges

like what does Apple's thing not do and that's what they're going to need to support also they'll have support of everything that you know predates predates Mac OS Catalina right but I bet they'll find some things at the

edges that these will see right like apple's thing could be great it could have some limitations i mean it certainly seemed like the way that they pitched it like it's got everything honestly the thing that i guess is going to be in that's going to still work great for luna display and not work for sidecar is initiating a mirrored view from the ip, which is how all of us are using, who are using our iPad to control a Mac mini that's hiding somewhere. I'm not sure that's going to work.

You're right. We'll see, right? Because the way Apple pitches it is you're on your Mac, because they put this in the Mac section. They didn't put it in the iOS section, right? Or the iPad OS section. Put it in the Mac section. It is considered on Apple's website

as a feature of iPad OS, but yes. But you start on the Mac, and then you push it to the ipad and so will you be able to pull a mac from your ipad or not maybe not and that would actually be ironically the feature that luna display did not intend to be big that everybody kind of started getting excited about which is kicking off a mac session in an app on your ipad might be a thing that apple doesn't serve becomes a selling point for them maybe tiny floating keyboard i can't believe it's taking a long time to do it i thought of you for that this is like i got a little keyboard i got a lot of screen real estate sometimes you just want to peck with a little

sometimes i'm holding my ipad and i need to type with one hand yeah and you're holding it one hand and you're typing and it's wild especially on 12 9 but now you could shrink it down and you can just you could hold it and you could do the swipe typing with your thumb in the corner i think it's just a nice thing that you can have and that's wonderful uh custom fonts in the app store yeah that was the second shoe to drop like that that i wasn't expecting so if i have custom font licenses that i've bought on the mac i can't bring them in they have to be on the app store is what it seems like right that's where you get your fonts you buy them on the app store i'm really intrigued to see what the pricing is like for fonts what the availability is like for fonts

um that is kind of fascinating to me is the way to deal with this problem yeah i'm i'm curious about the details because it what it doesn't cover is if you get fonts from some other means and so that's kind of my question is is there also an api for apps to add fonts to the system or not and we'll find out because like when you buy microsoft office you get fonts when you buy adobe like i have the adobe bundle you get access to all these fonts that you can install on the mac but you can't install on ios so um my guess is that yes my guess is that for the general public you'll just be able to buy fonts on the app store but that there'll be some other way to add apps from uh other sources too that won't be as won't be as nice but like because adobe should really be able if if you you know buy a

software package that comes bundled with 20 fonts they should be able to say hey system here are the here we'll see files Mike we got it Federico and I whooped Marco took a picture of me after they announced external storage support I guess because he figured I would be beaming which I kind of was I clapped at that I I think I was the first person you probably can't hear me because I was I was way back but I think I was the first person to exclaim and i made a sound and i started to clap uh when they mentioned uh external storage support i got i got out of the gate faster there honestly never thought i'd see the day so external storage support so you can plug in a thumb drive you can plug in some kind of sd card reader this is all the stuff that got beat up about when the imac pro came out and it's again one of those things where it's apple's vision of the future versus. This is all the stuff that they got beat up about when the iMac Pro came out. And it's, again, one of those things

where it's Apple's vision of the future versus reality, which is, you know what? People and businesses who are supposed to be using these iPad Pros, they got friends with thumb drives, colleagues with thumb drives

who bring a presentation that you can open on your iPad, but you literally can't plug it into the iPad. Well, you can, but it doesn't do anything. And that's out the window. And then on top of that,

people in offices have servers that are shared in the office. And then on top of that, people in offices have servers that are shared in the office. And they put the SMB support in there for the same reason. So this means that the iPad Pro now is as trustworthy, more or less, as any laptop in a business scenario

where you need to connect to the server and you need to share. You connect to the server, you could have used a third-party app before. There are some good third-party apps that do that that will now be kind of Sherlock. But this needed to be in the Files app. And then the USB thing,

you basically have to have the system support that. And so this is enormous. And it's more than just Files too. So an app like Lightroom, you can import directly in. Right, another huge thing because it used to be that all that stuff had to go into the Photos database and then move to Lightroom like the idea of it going into icloud and it's the

same problem you're then going to upload all those things to icloud when you don't want to because all you really want to do is put them into lightroom and i don't know that the details matter but like if i'm ferrite and i'm an audio app can i look at external storage and say i can import these files and actually just import right off i would expect that it should be able to do what lightroom can do which is you know a third-party app instead of having to bring it on to the files app even in local storage which they they had a local storage up there presumably they're they're making it a little bit more powerful to save files on your ipad that you don't want on my ipad

it's now user savable you can create folders and save your own stuff in on my because because sometimes you don't want to sync an enormous file in the cloud you just want to save it on your ipad so uh yeah i don't even know that they uh zip and archives are all in there yep so it is like the people column view yeah column view which i've never i've never liked the column view but it's like column view boy yeah yeah federico was excited about it too and uh you know that was steve jobs's favorite view he loved the column view all the way from next so having that quick actions which is a mac concept that they brought to to ipad os where you can select an image or whatever

and say, let's rotate this image or whatever. Do something very quickly about it. They're interesting way where they're sort of having the interfaces parallel each other, which that's pretty cool. So that was essentially somebody gave the people in charge of the files app

on iPad OS, finally the time and the authorization to go down the wishlist. Talk about wishlist. The item on the jason snow wish list desktop safari how bad are the google docs ios apps that apple made a point of saying hey you can just load google docs in in safari now in desktop mode and it's not just so what they didn't the answer is they're bad by the way the answer is those google apps on an ipad are really bad um the the details here matter because a lot of the a lot of times when we talked about doing a

desktop class version of safari on ipad what we got is people saying, oh, well, you can't do that because they assume that you have a mouse. All of these things. And my answer was always, well, yeah, but Apple's pretty clever. They can know that you're on an iPad and do things to make it still work.

And that's what they said. That's what they said. They are doing things to make stuff that might have not worked right without a mouse work and that might be you know i'm sure that webkit there are going to be details about this but it's probably doing things with like javascript like drop down menus and things like that where you know a tap is a rollover and you know know, and then the next tap is a, is a click or something like that where they, where they are trying to do the right thing. But I love this because that was one of my great frustrations on the iPad is that sometimes you just couldn't use a webpage because

it was trying to treat it like a baby browser and also per site settings, which I think means that you will be able to per site say load this as a desktop site. Yeah, and they also had like text size and stuff like that so that you can set those per site. Right. And there's like a bunch of other little settings as well. And a download manager. Which goes to files. If you want to download a zip file from Bandcamp of an album you just bought,

you can save it in files and then you can unzip those files and then I don't know what. Mail attachments go there now too. Oh, wow. So Mail and Safari both push to a downloads folder which it in files and then you can unzip those files and then I don't know when mail attachments go there now too so mail and Safari both push to a downloads folder which lives in files amazing this iPad OS so this is a brand new operating system by and large

surely this means a frequency, an increased frequency in iPad enhancements because they now have another operating system to talk about, right? Like whenever they come up at WWDC, in theory now they have five operating systems

to give an update on every year and iPad is one of them. The fact that they have done this must mean that they are going to continue to push the iPad. The jumps that they have taken this year, some of the steps that they have made are huge. And I can only imagine this being a good thing, right,

for people like me and you. Yeah, I... Well, honestly, one of the things that I hadn't really thought about before about it being iPadOS is there's nowhere to hide and that's exciting because what that means is next year what apple can't do is say another year more great ios features here are all these features and they're all iphone features by having ipad os be its own thing ios is iphone os and then ipad i mean but the funny thing is it still gets them all it's really interesting well yeah because

they move in they move in sync but they're not the same yeah exact iteration but i guess what i'm saying is next year if they don't if they do this thing where every two years the ipad gets updates next year if they say yeah ipad os doesn't really have anything except what's in iphone os it's going to be way more ios it's going to be way more obvious than it has been before because i think saying that iphone os is its own thing implies it's going to be handled as its own thing and get up or ipad os on its own um not its own time frame because these all come out the same time every year but with its own set of priorities that you can't it seems to me that it makes it harder for them to get away with doing an empty update to the

iphone or to the ipad os yeah so um it sounds like as Federico reported, there is mouse support in assistive touch in accessibility. Wow, Steve Troughton-Smith has found it. It works with a magic trackpad plugged in. Yeah, what's weird is that it seems to not work

with Bluetooth, which I don't really understand. I am going to use the absolute loving frick out of this feature, Jason, when I put it in my stand and I'm going to be trackpad in it. Oh my God, this is amazing. I'm so excited about this. Yeah, it means that if Bridge wants to do a trackpad version of the Bridge keyboard, they're going to have to have a little USB cable.

It's not the worst thing in the world. Yeah, it's not great, but it's better than nothing. I don't know why they wouldn't support bluetooth devices but there it is version one right and but like i've desperately wanted this feature i don't care how i have to have it yeah um i i really want it because for accessibility for myself right like it's genuine it's for my posture yeah i i really desperately need to be able to use my ipad in a stand because when i'm sitting at my desk it's not good for me to be looking down so much and now being able to use a trackpad along with my keyboard that's going to be a huge deal looks like bluetooth mice work with it but not the magic trackpad over bluetooth right now that's

weird then again it's a beta too maybe it'll all be there later on or maybe they'll take things out but but pointing device and we'll see what the details are and if it really feels good or if it feels weird but if i can use that to do text selection uh that'll be great all right so is that it for ipad os you know i'm sure it's not but i feel like that's probably most of the highlights. Like, there was so much going on on iPadOS. I just, you know. I'm so excited about this. I cannot wait to try one. Me too.

I brought an iPad to WWDC. Boy, I hate saying that. WWDC. What's DubDub now? What's the Apple's ordained it? Well, it's www.dc.apple. No, it's DubDub now. I hate it, but they wrote it on the wall. Yeah, it's www.dc.apple. It's dubbed up now. I hate it, but they've wrote it on the wall.

Yeah, it's true. Anyway, I brought an iPad to San Jose, a sacrificial iPad Pro 10.5, and it's going to get it. And we'll see what happens there, but I'm looking forward to it. Today's episode is also brought to you by ExpressVPN. Now, sometimes, not sometimes, cybercrime, right? This is something, it seems like it happens in the movies. It's hard to imagine someone wanting to try and get hold of your information, but stealing data using public Wi-Fi is an easy way for bad guys to make money,

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for a one-year package. Our thanks to ExpressVPN for their support of this show and RelayFM. All right, Jason Snell. Mac Pro. Mac Pro. Mac Pro Display XDR. Now, can we just give a shout-out to of the show colleen ovielle yes made her uh her public speaking debut on she was amazing and she

made her stage debut today she was absolutely wonderful she was showing off the pro display xdr one of my favorite honestly one of my favorite presentations of the whole day because she seemed so excited about it um i especially liked when she started wooing it was brilliant like it was a great it was a great thing but wow okay mac pro this wasn't what i expected uh on the six colors secret podcast on friday i made a prediction of i decided i i hadn't put it anywhere and i thought i had a moment where i thought oh you know i think I was listening to ATP. I was like, I know what the next Mac Pro is going to be. I said, they're going to go back.

It's going to be a modern version of the cheese grater Mac, because that one worked. You need the space for slots. You need the ventilation. It is, you know, clad in metal, and they'll do some new aluminum stuff with it and whatever but that it's basically a tower so they're just gonna do a tower with an apple spin on it and that's exactly what they did in fact it looks more like a box grater than the old one did holes are a little large for my my liking so it's gonna take yeah we'll see it's gonna take some getting used to it actually reminded me the new um TARDIS interior on Doctor Who has these has these circles with these kind

of shapes inside them that are this kind of scalloped look and it looks a little bit like that so uh I guess BBC set designers get a time time for a Mac Pro for you? Jason, now, we're the first, I think, the first podcast in Relay and in the wider expanded universe to talk about the Mac Pro. Yes. So I think we need to address the most important thing. Okay.

Jason, is this an ugly computer? I think it might be. I think it is... I'm going to leave it to others to decide but i would say it is kind of a piece of industrial furniture because it's meant to be used in serious workplace environments i think it looks good but i think it's kind of brutal yet it brutal is a great word to describe it uh it is it is harsh on the eyes this one i think i think it looks better in person and i think you might get used to it but it is it is aggressive and brutal um but let me say why like i don't think

it is a particularly good looking computer but I actually think that that is a good thing. I think Apple very clearly put function over form with this device. Yes, for sure. That's why they went back to the cheese grater. We want it. Because they put form over function, right? And I will tell you, I will tell you in my discussions with people at Apple today,

they don't talk about the trash can Mac Pro. They talk about the cheese grater, but they don't talk about the trash can Mac Pro. They talk about the cheese grater, but they won't talk about the trash can. But when they talk about this new one, the box grater, whatever we want to call it, the new Mac Pro, what they talk about all the time is overhead.

How much overhead they built into this. And if you recall, the reason that the trash can mac pro died is because it turned out it was not built with any overhead and they couldn't put faster hotter things in it because they couldn't cool them and this one by going back to this other design they've got two different it's three fans and a blower it's two different isolated thermal i'm worried if you get too close to this thing it will pull you through to the other side no so so no um they say that at uh sort of standard use it's quieter than the imac pro um it's three very large fans in the front so

they're you know they don't have to rotate quite as fast. And one of the things they've done is they've built this ventilation path. And if you look at the cards, these modules, these MPX modules... This is the graphics card system that Apple's built, right? So all of these modules...

If you look at the processor, if you look at the graphics card module, if you look at that video encoding module, and then there are others like Promise is announcing like a RAID that you can stick in it with like four spinning disks. And there's also a two disk thing that you can stick in that. But

the design that they've got in common in addition to like the black, you know, metal and all that is what Apple wants people to do is build these cards with huge heat sinks and then use the ventilation of the chamber of the Mac Pro to do the blowing.

Because what they don't want is eight fans inside of it blowing on their individual cards. So the stuff that Apple has designed, those cards don't have fans. They have huge heat sinks. And then the Mac Pro has the fans. And the Mac Pro does the blowing through the case and out the back.

So, you know, what they kept telling me is it's about headroom. It's about the fact that this thing is not just built to handle what's currently in there, but that it's built to handle way more power than the stuff that's in there actually needs, which the implication is very strong that when new stuff comes out that has higher, you know, requirements, they will be able to just slide those in and those will work too. So, you know, they learned, clearly they learned the hard lesson of the Trash Can Mac Pro and have gone the other way because it has to be functional. They've heard from a lot of angry pros.

I actually had somebody from Apple make mention of a site that they visited and said that they were all still on the cheese grater Mac Pros. And that's an interesting admission because that's an admission that the last Mac Pro generation, that customer didn't bother buying them. And that's an interesting admission because that's an admission that the last mac pro generation that customer didn't bother buying them and that's telling so it's wild that they have a raid version too right they have like not a raid version a um rack version oh yeah the yeah and i didn't get any details on that but like it's it's rackable they there's a a variation that you can put on its side and you can slide it in and you it can go put wheels on it, which is hilarious. And you can put wheels on it.

Well, that's what I mean about industrial furniture, right? Like there's something to that. And the way it's built, it's like a, it's this, it's a stainless steel frame. So it's almost like a piece of Ikea furniture or like its own storage rack or its own equipment rack where the stainless frame and everything's kind of hanging off of that.

And then there's this aluminum shell. The way it works is that when it looks like a normal computer, there's this little circular thing on the top and it's like a handle and you flip it up and turn it and then lift it off and the whole thing lifts off.

So instead of a door, the whole chassis lifts off and you're left with this stainless steel frame inside that everything's hanging off of. Also means that when you pick it up to move it around, you're not picking up things that are screwed to the top. You're actually picking up the entire frame. Look, they screwed up the last one. And they know it. And when they did that thing two years ago where they

said we know we blew it and we are going to do a a new mac pro this is this is them and they formed that whole pro group right where they're like talking to their customers this is them saying yeah we know we blew it we've listened and we want to give you everything that you asked for and some stuff that you didn't expect because we you know we want to give you everything that you asked for and some stuff that you didn't expect because we you know we want to build this so we can do an update to it in a year or two years or three years and have it still work so we don't have to build i mean like they don't want to build a new mac pro chassis for another 10 years right they don't want to do that so they built this thing to handle it i mean a lot of the technical specifications of this machine are better served

disgust and atp which i'm really we're going to see that tonight and i'm excited to see mac pro live mac pro live it's a podcast about the mac pro but there's a bunch of stuff like the the amount of ports that this thing has and can have more of because of expansion you can have up to 12 thunderbolt parts if you just keep putting on different I.O. cards and you can drive six of those new displays and it's bananas. Let's talk about that display. So Apple's created

Extreme Dynamic Range XDR. Yeah, I saw that in person. That was pretty it's pretty wild. This thing is also complicated to look at. So they did a, before we get to the, is it pretty? I think from the front it's pretty,

and if you don't like that lattice, then you won't like it from the back. It has a fan, which I know is going to freak John Syracuse out, but they said that the fan is less than seven decibels, so it's like below room noise, so it's basically inaudible. But it is there. But there is a fan because they're doing so much with it and what and they put us in a room with um a couple of existing displays that are considered sort of like pro level computer displays that are like one's two thousand and one's like six thousand dollars and then also reference monitor monitors son then also reference monitors,

Sony professional reference monitors that are in the 20s of thousands of dollars and these new displays. And Apple's message is essentially none of those displays can do everything that the Apple displays can do. But at their pinnacle, because like the Sony displays, although they look as good as the Apple displays, if you go off their pinnacle, because like the Sony displays,

although they look as good as the Apple displays, if you go off to the side, they don't look good. They really have to be viewing them front on. But the larger point that Apple's trying to make, unusual for them, because they usually will say, we have the best.

What they were sort of saying is, well, we have the best, but also from the front, we look like that Sony display display that costs twenty six thousand dollars and ours doesn't cost twenty six thousand dollars so it's not twenty six forty six thousand so this is this is apple's this is sort of apple's pitch here is that this is the best computer monitor that you can buy better than anything that's out there from dell or iso and it's essentially the same quality you would get in a 48 000 sony monitor

especially since it can maintain that that hundred nits of brightness whereas some of the other displays they either um after a while they they auto dim because they can't keep up that the the heat that's involved or um in the case of the iso monitor it can it can um it can't display the range so when you get when it gets really bright you can see all the blacks lift up and become gray and that just doesn't happen on this display. So on that level, it's pretty amazing. They've engineered 576 independent LEDs that are doing backlighting. They've got all these different layers. It's a seven-layer burrito of innovation. They've got seven layers that are doing these things with the blue backlights so that they're

steering them. It is funny because this is really Apple saying, OK, we can take this panel, how do we make this panel great? And the answer is, they take the panel, and then they built this huge system behind the panel, which is great. I mean, if you look at the price, it's not cheap. But at the same time, for what it is, you know, if you it's comparable to what you get in a 40. First off, it's comparable to what you get in a $40,000 reference monitor. But I think the other point is that that ISO display that people are currently buying that costs $6,000. And this thing costs $6,000. Yeah, but you can't really do anything with it with $6,000.

Well, it costs $5,000. And then if you want a stand, it's another $1,000. And that's $6,000. Or if you want a VESA mount, it's $400. Yeah, it's $199 for the VESA mount, I think. Isn't it? $999 for the stand. But then you have to mount it somewhere. Okay, yes.

And then there's the nanotexture version, which is another $1,000, which I didn't get to see up close, where they're trying to do a matte version that is... It's not etched with glass. They're just etched glass. Yeah, well, this is...

When do I get that on an iPad? It's like, well, yeah, right? Well, I mean, if it's an extra $1,000 is maybe the chance but this is like marco putting a screen protector on his ipad i did it too the anti-glare right oh yes that's why i want it on my except they're no good right because they do that weird rainbowing thing that's right the shimmer or whatever they called it so it's not cheap but this is their argument is that is that rather than make they didn't engineer this product to be cheap, they engineered it to be good.

And then they're pricing it where actually compared to, not only is it cheaper than the $43,000 currently available Sony monitor or the $48,000 formerly available Sony monitor, but if you take that ISO monitor that's six grand, it's way better than that and that's their argument is basically like you don't need a reference monitor in your video pro space instead buy this one buy five of these and put them on people's desks and then instead of

having a chain where you have to pass things off until you get to the reference monitor everybody can just have a reference monitor on their desk and again will a regular person need this monitor um uh no and the good thing is like if it matters even if you buy a mac pro you can just use another thunderbolt display for sure right you can and you can still buy those you can still go with that um are there i love that the uh on the stand it goes into portrait orientation as well that stand that's kind of made me want it yeah yeah me too the stand is a bit awkward looking um it's kind of it's at the height that it needs to be because the imac stand in my opinion and i know you feel the same because you're a facer guy it's too low i have my imax sitting up on this little metal thing you can adjust it 120 millimeters in height so there's some there's some room to

adjust it up and down it is higher up and you can and it is higher up and you can tilt it from 25 degrees to minus five so there's some there's 30 degrees of tilt 100 millimeters of height adjustment um it is also that stand is also kind of brutal, right? It's like a right angle. It's not super curvy or anything, but it fits in with the kind of design language they're going for for this thing. And it's meant for serious business. Also has to be high enough so that you can rotate it.

That's part of the trick of having it be rotatable is if it's too low down, you have to, I used to have a rotatable monitor like that i think it was an nec monitor and in order to rotate it you had to slide it up it went up and then you turn it because it couldn't rotate at its base level which is dumb but that's how yeah that is kind of weird right because you just like turn it and hit the corner of it into the dust i do find myself wondering about john syracuse we'll'll just promote ATP Live, which is coming up. They're recording that in a few hours.

I can't wait to find out what he thinks. Is this one of those things where John Syracuse doesn't need 100 nits and doesn't need a million to one HDR ratio or anything like that? I just don't know about... I just can't fathom... But for $6,000, you can get an Apple monitor for $6,000. And the monitor is $6,000. By the way, it doesn't have a webcam on it. I can't fathom. But for $6,000, you can get an Apple monitor for six grand. And the monitor's six grand.

By the way, it doesn't have a webcam on it, but I think Logitech announced they've partnered with Logitech, and Logitech's got a thing for it that is a 4K webcam that sits on top and is designed to blend in. For six grand? I would have liked Face ID. For six grand? So I think what they said was the, where the,

where these things go, I don't care. There are issues with if you put a camera in it, you're making the bezels bigger and they want them all like next to each other. And they all, they said that for six grand, I want to count.

I want, not only do I want a webcam in it, I want face. And I'll say it's a thousand nits. I don't know how many nits it is. I haven't, you know, my kids,

my kids had lice when they were little, but since then, I don't know how many nits are in. I kids had lice when they were little, but since then, I don't know how many nits are in. I'll take 900 nits if I can have Face ID in it. Okay, you can't have that, though, because the pro customers don't want Face ID. I'm with you, and they should do that on an iMac, but for this display, I'm okay with it. Yeah, the next iMac should have it, definitely, definitely. I agree. Yeah, definitely.

But I will say that it's a very expensive piece of equipment. I would really like to see a little bit more from it. Like, I really would. 32 inches, which is cool. That's kind of what kind of stuff that we thought. 6K retina, 40% larger than the iMac screen, 20 million pixels. I'm excited to see what this thing looks like I'm also a little bit scared

The screen is gorgeous I will tell you I am potentially in the market for an upgrade to my computer I'm also expecting the iMac Pro will get bumped around the same time this comes out which is later in the year. I'm expecting they will because the iMac Pro has not been

revved yet and it might get some of the chips that the Mac Pro has in it yeah and i think this answers the question too the Mac Pro starts at six thousand i was actually surprised they laid out all the pricing here iMac Pro starts at six thousand and that to me it seems like they're trying to find a place for the iMac Pro versus the Mac Pro. So iMac Pro at five, Mac Pro at six, and you've got this. Obviously, they both go up from there. The advantage of the iMac Pro is it's all-in-one. It's a great screen.

It's got that power. Most people don't need a Mac Pro, right? Like, they didn't design this to be the Mac Mini. They designed it to be... Well, I did find out if I ever want to have 1,000 people on a podcast, I can do that in Logic.

Yes, you can. That'll sound great. I'm sure. There's cross-talk on that. Wow, wow, wow. All right. We should talk about Mac OS Catalina

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and show your support for this show. Once again, that is squarespace.com slash upgrade and the code upgrade for 10% your first purchase our thanks to squarespace for their continued support of this show and all of relay fm squarespace make your next move make your next website uh we did not get this name mac os catalina we did not get that talena they have left the desert behind that's fine because otherwise it would have been death valley and also marzipan moment of silence for marzipan just pull one out it is now catalyst catalyst so easy to remember catalyst catalina catalina i like catalyst catalyst to change yes yes i mean they're

sending a message also who i don't like marzipan i don't like marzipan i like a name yes this is a better name i'm glad that it's not just i mean the way they phrase is like well we call it internally you know project but we've had a different name he gives us something to call it other than marzipan or uh you know ui kit mac or whatever let's come back to Catalyst. Yes, Catalina. We'll start on Catalina. We'll start on Catalina. I love the way they got rid of the iTunes thing, where they were making fun of iTunes. See, this is back to Craig Federighi

as the guy who can skewer Apple. Put in a calendar in. Then we need a dock. We can put a dock in there. That was so good. And that allows him to make the joke without saying, you know, we stuff too much stuff in iTunes.

He never said that because he didn't need to. Instead, he made a joke about how, yeah know, we stuff too much stuff in iTunes. He never said that because he didn't need to. Instead, he made a joke about how, yeah, there's a lot of stuff in there. And now there's not. Music, podcasts, Apple TV. That's it. And Finder. Finder gets the iPhone. It's like a drive now,

I guess. Yeah. I wouldn't have expected that. The only thing, the question I've got is about file transfer stuff and if that's in there too. What about local music libraries? Is it in the music app? I felt like I wasn't completely sure about that. Yeah, I'm unclear

on the details. I assume so, but I don't know. Let's see if I can try and find that out while we're still talking today. But yeah, I mean, it makes perfect sense to have these applications, right? They are what they are. Oh, can we just talk a minute about that voice control feature that they showed off that was also for the iPhone? That video they did was unbelievable. So this is the ability to be able to control Apple devices just by using voice, and you can have this system put up all these numbers on the screen, which is where you would want the tabs.

You know, we don't need to sit here and, like, applaud Apple for everything that they do. But I look at something like that, and I see the amount of work that it must have taken for the amount of people that will actually use that feature. They don't need to do this stuff. They don't need to do that, but they do it. Yep.

Because there are companies that make products, right, that can help you with this type of stuff. So there are options that are available for people who are unable to interact with devices to be able to use their voice to do it instead. My understanding, right, there are things that you can use. But this really, it was a very touching video

and it blew me away because it was such a clever system. And these things, it's just like the amount of time and effort and money that was put into creating that system for the amount of people that will actually use it, but the effect that it will have on those people's lives makes it worth it. And it's unbelievable. Also, as we have said time and again, I saw Stephen Aquino who writes about these issues. but the effect that it will have on those people's lives makes it worth it and it's unbelievable.

Also, as we have said time and again, I saw Stephen Aquino who writes about these issues. He was at the keynote. Not only is it important for tech companies to think about accessibility, but the truth is an accessible product is a better product for everybody. And when we talk about mouse support in iPadOS or iOS, because it turns out, according to Steve Trout and Smith,

that you can do it on an iPhone too. Well, why not? That's an accessibility feature that benefits us. And you could say, well, yes, but you actually need accessibility. And there's a fuzzy line there, right? It is. Where it's like everybody has their own needs. Accessibility requirements. And some of that has to do need accessibility. And there's a fuzzy line there, right? It is. Where it's like everybody has their own needs. Accessibility requirements.

And some of that has to do with accessibility. But a system that's more accessible is more flexible. And so for me, I look at that. And anybody who's got RSI stuff, this is a good thing too. Like you used to be able. So David Pogue who uh used to write for macworld and then went on to whatever the new york times whatever um what does he didn't know he does like something well then he went to yahoo and now i saw his byline in the new york times

again so i don't know maybe he's freelancing for them but anyway um david was uh i was his editor for a while at macworld when he did the back page column. And one of our editors, Sholly McFarland, also a severe RSI. And they both use Dragon, which they had to use a PC for because the Mac version was never very good. And then Mac Speech Dictate came out and then it got bought by Nuance and basically killed.

And it's one of those things where one of the reasons you need to go with more than just sort of like the standard dictation is standard dictation has its limits. It doesn't run forever. It'll turn itself off. And you can't do things like edit text,

which means that you can save your hands from writing, but the moment you make a mistake, you either have to let it go or you have to stop and pick up your mouse and start to do those things. And what they demoed in that video was editing by voice, which is enormous if you're somebody who actually wants to write at length with your voice

because you have to be able to say, forget that, go back, replace that, correct this word. And yeah, it takes a while for your brains to do that, but Shali and David both did that. I your brains to to do that but charlie and uh and david both did that and i really want to play around with it that so that that can be huge for people who just don't want to type as much like again like i don't really want to harp on about it because i'm i'm clearly not in a position where i require severe accessibility needs but i do struggle with lots of different things and it's all kind of related to posture and rsi stuff and there are times when i'm having really bad flare

ups where i would prefer to not have to use my hands where i don't need to to make the money that i need for my living and you know so if i was able to be able to use my iPad without touching it, that could be a big help to me at times. So I'm really interested to look at what this feature really is all about. But more than anything, I'm just happy that they made it. I want to provide a real-time follow-up from Kate in the chat room from the music app. Explore a library of 50 million songs, blah, blah, blah,

or listen to all the music you've collected over the years. And there is another copy on the page talking about the iTunes store still being available. The music app is effectively all of the music features of iTunes, it would seem. What else

do we have? We already spoke about Sidecar, which is the second display yeah for the mac and then i guess really and we talked about find my and screen time is coming to the mac too which is what i really wanted that that's fantastic yeah that was a draft pick and that's a good one i'm really excited about that because i don't i want to manage my kids devices all of them activation lock is worth mentioning as another feature where if you've got a t2 mac you can now do the same thing where it's locked to your apple id and people can't get into it it's great but let's talk about catalyst project catalyst they did not spend as much time

on this in the presentation this is what i meant catalyst i expected them to spend 30 minutes now maybe in the development union it's because they had theUI stuff. Now, we're not going to talk about this because, again, I think this is a little bit over our pay grade. Yeah. But the SwiftUI stuff, that seems like. They're moving on to the next generation of things, right? This is much further down the line. But they're trying to sell people on it now to get them. This is the carrot for the Swift stick, right?

People can see how useful it would be because now if you use the swift ui stuff you can build to the watch independently with its own ui right there was a lot of stuff going on in here which again i am very interested to hear how it's broken down on shows that like under the radar and how it's broken on atp right yeah i want to hear our friends who are developers talk about that because i don't know although i will say and i'm not alone in this i talked to a bunch of people who are developers talk about that because I don't know although I will say and I'm not alone in this. I talked to a bunch of people who are like computer nerds but not developers when they were showing the Swift UI stuff which came later and that was when that when it's sort of like they went to two hours and then they're like all right now we're going to do 30 minutes of nerdy. We're going to show you some code.

But I looked at that and thought oh my my God, maybe I should write an app. Well, because it seemed possible, right? Right. Because they had a visual app building system. And it sweeps away because one of the problems when you think about building an app is that, oh my God, I'm going to need to learn. I'm going to have to go back through a decade of knowledge in order to get where I need to go. And this looks a little more appealing. And I realize it was a demo and a keynote, but I think that's really interesting.

Well, the thing is, though, yes, it was a demo and a keynote, but I'm going to try it. And I wouldn't, right? Yeah. But I will open it up and play with it. And it's an extension of Swift Playgrounds, but what they said is it's designed for app building. And this is the other piece of the puzzle. There was that talk of a couple years ago there was like all the

marzipan talk and there was also all this like amber i think stuff where where like gruber had this and then german had had marzipan it was like a fight of who was right but it turned out they were both right it was just different yeah and that's what's what uh because these things seem to work in conflict to each other. Because they are two different systems to build applications that can run on multiple platforms. Yeah, but they... I think that's why everything got so confusing.

And it's why it's so interesting to see it. And it's like, you look at the Swift UI stuff and you're like, aha. That is the one app everywhere system. But what we have right now is there's multiple ways and we're going to allow you to start porting them until we can convince you all to use Swift.

And then when we're there, it's going to be wonderful. And it seems like they are, the carrot is really what they're using here, which is it's easier. And if you want watch apps, right? Like if you want watch apps with native UI. Just do this. That's what you got to do.

You got to learn it. So again, I feel like I'm talking out of school a little bit but catalyst could have been a half an hour i was so surprised at how much honestly i think they said we don't even need to evangelize this because every ios developer is a mac user and they they're going to get it and and the way they handled it i thought was very clever they said mojave was version one now we're here time they said they said you've got 100 million mac users waiting for you which is a great way to put it it's just like look you this opens a new market for you what did they add from mojave improved sidebar better text interaction smoother scrolling a single process model which means that if uh an app crashes it doesn't take down all the marzipan sorry catalyst

apps so it means that it's because before it was like, it's all running as one kind of subsystem. And now they're going to run as their own things. Available now, they said, and then this is the thing, and they did the phrasing was very particular. They said, you check the Mac checkbox, and it builds in the fundamental features. But, and this is the key bit of language they used,

the finishing touches are up to you and that's the way they're saying it is i love that is is you get we will take you all this way and it will work and then what we want you to do is your due diligence as a developer which is add the finishing touches add the key the menu bar add the touch bar support, add the keyboard shortcuts, add all of this other stuff that makes it a truly good Mac app. And then they brought out a couple of developers. I like the Jira people because what I

really liked is what he says, because of the work we have done on our iPad app, like keyboard shortcuts and split view, we're ready to go. And it's like, yeah, because what that means is people that don't support these power user features on the ipad will want to support them on the mac and then the ipad will get them to yeah no i thought i thought it was good for what it was i was surprised it wasn't longer but i think

they're coming from a position of confidence and feeling like they don't know need to make a bigger deal about it than they did and that um they will end and the finishing touches are what it's all about and i'm sure they are spending a lot of time in sessions throughout this week talking about how you make great mac apps using the finishing touches but um that's all they needed to talk about on stage i thought i thought that was pretty good because they they acted very confident about how well this is going to work and we'll see the details but i think that says a lot that they actually twitter is coming back to the mac how hilarious i thought about that a few months ago which is like well i mean this is obviously the solution and it sounds like apple like called them up and said okay you abandon the mac yeah come down and make your ios app work on the Mac. And they said, great. And we know iOS developers

who've said much the same thing, which is, of course I'm going to look at this. I don't want to make two apps. I mean, that's the bottom line. Apple doesn't want to make two apps. So what we don't know, although maybe Steve Tritton Smith already knows, but what we don't know is what apps are. It seemed like they were

saying reminders and notes. I assume so. Because they brought them up yeah right when they said oh we have these we also have the it looked like maybe because we were talking about this like reminders and notes could move over they didn't do what i thought they were going to do which was to surprise everyone with a big one it's like they almost got there and then they didn't i think that this is it's i'm very excited i say, like I know this maybe sounds a bit silly, but I'm finding myself more and more excited about the Mac again. Right.

Because it's going to be getting... It's going to be an influx of new software. It's going to be getting the stuff that I want again. There are so many iOS apps that I love, and one of the reasons I use iOS so much is because it's got the apps that I want. It's got those great apps. But the Mac doesn't have them,

but now it might get them, and that is very very exciting to me and i can't wait for this year the app developers at apple and the third-party app developers will be so happy to put focus on building a great app instead of building two versions of a pretty good app and like twitter is a good example where twitter is never obviously they never prioritize their mac app but they've gotten ipad app so now they've got a mac app like that's all they had to obviously they never prioritize their Mac app, but they've got an iPad app, so now they've got a Mac app. That's all they had to do. And they might make their iPad app better now because they're going to put it on the Mac too.

They might put some columns in it or whatever. So I think this is wonderful. I am so excited for the rest of this week now to start seeing people posting tweets. I'm sure I think I saw it already, James Thompson has probably already got it running. Yeah, I'm sure. I think I saw it already. James Thompson's probably already got it running.

Yeah, I'm sure he does. And James is a good example. He's one person writing an app that he's written since college, but he is currently developing two versions of it. And, you know, at some point, and I don't know if it'll be this fall, but at some point, and I don't know if it'll be this fall, but at some point, by doing,

using Catalyst, James will no longer have to maintain the shared code, but like two different apps. He will be able- He had 784 build warnings. He will, you know,

eventually he will be able to do what he's finally dreamed of, which is build a multi-user racing game inside his calculator. And there's no about screen as well, because it's using some stuff that's not supported, he will be able to do what he's finally dreamed of which is build a multi-user racing game inside his calculator and there's no about screen as well because it's using some stuff that's not supported but like the idea is so your apps will get this this is the thing that's like well what does it matter for me as a regular user there's a few things one is a lot of great there's been a lot of great ipad apps that have been built that will be on the mac

calzones on my mac yeah so so a lot of great mac apps or a lot of great ios apps that have been built that don't run on the mac that will now be able to run on the back that's one so you'll get calzones sure you'll get overcast right um the second thing is your apps will theoretically again we need to see what the limitations are but your apps have a good chance of getting better because these wasted cycles that your developers have to spend building the iOS version and then the Mac version will now all be put into one version that will get better faster.

And James is a good example of that with pCalc, where if James builds pCalc with new features everywhere at once instead of having to build it twice p calc gets better faster so even if it's not about like your uh getting new apps it's about your existing apps getting better faster that's the dream of this and now we'll see what the limitations are because the fear is that somebody's going to go, if you remember when all the iWork apps got updated to be in sync with a code base from iOS, it wasn't Catalyst back then,

but it was still kind of like that. They wanted to get those things in lockstep. There were a lot of feature regressions. So that's the one thing to watch here is like, are there things that are going, is somebody, who's going to be the first person to step on that landmine of releasing a new version in the fall that's based on catalyst and their app loses features on the mac that would probably be a mistake but it will probably happen someone's going to do it yeah yeah that's a really good point so we'll see because nobody's you know

those existing mac apps are going away so i think james is a responsible developer is a great example james thompson is not going to regress p calc just to put it into catalyst but he is going i would imagine not to speak for james he is going to try try to make it so it doesn't regress and if an apple need to listen to these developers and that's well you know and so i would also say i bet you this is the most important part about this summer and this beta cycle is apple hearing from developers about what works and what doesn't with catalyst i think this cycle has the potential to have the most impact on a mac os release in years because turning these third-party developers loose is going to shake out all sorts

of weird things that hopefully apple will address and fix in catalina by the time it ships or maybe shortly thereafter so that's that's the one caveat here is like i worry about apps that that rush to support this and end up uh sort of taking features away from mac users but i i just hope they don't have to because that's not what this is about this is about making everybody's apps better over time what a day enormous and we have only scratched the surface fortunately there's another week's worth of podcasts for everybody to listen to and we'll be back with more. But next week, I guess we will probably talk about

some of the stuff we haven't been able to cover. Yeah, I want to talk about Apple Watch, and we'll be able to talk about the things that we totally missed this time that excite us. And the stuff that we are ultimately going to find out about having used these betas, which we will be over the next week. Yeah, things get more nitty-gritty then.

But it is, again, like when they announced iOS 7, I was kind of blown away because the visual changes were so enormous that it was just hard to even comprehend. But this, it's the litany of the technical details of all these things that they're doing. And you might ask yourself, why this year were they able to do this when other years they aren't able to do this and it's sort of like we're kicking it slow and we're looking at stability and speed of older versions the answer is apple's been working for this day

for years yeah right that's the truth of it is that can see, this is the coming together. Catalyst and SwiftUI have been in the works with large teams at Apple for years. I suspect we know people who have been working on them for years, and they couldn't tell us. And so this is not Apple finally doing something. This is Apple having done something in the background for a long time finally being able to take the wrapper off of it and show it to us and that happened today but as a result it was incredibly plus on the hardware side the mac pro is the same kind of thing that's that's a few years of work a couple years of work at least so and we know the process we know the timeline of that one yeah yeah pretty pretty clearly. So that means today was enormous.

And that's great. It's a lot to process. But Federico and I did a little high five. Like, you know, the advantage of waiting an extra year and watching iPad features be deferred is when they

arrive, it is really sweet. And iOS 11 was really sweet. And iOS 9 was really sweet. And iPad arrive it is really sweet and ios 11 was really sweet and ios 9 was really sweet and ipad os 13 is really sweet and i can't wait to install it on my sacrificial ipad pro and see what happens so we will be back next week with more of this uh you can find show notes for today's episode at relay.fm upgrade 248 you8. You should keep your eye on sixcolors.com because I'm sure that Jason will have a lot of interesting things

going on over there. Jason is at jsnl on Twitter as well. J-S-N-E-L-L. I am at imyke. I-M-Y-K-E. Thanks to Squarespace, ExpressVPN,

and Lunar Display for their support of this show. If you are still in San Jose, we hope that we'll see you around this week. And don't forget that we're going to be recording

Connected live in front of a wonderful audience at the Hammer Theatre later on this week. Very excited about the episode. The closer we get to it, the more wild it seems like it's going to be. So I'm very excited. I hope that you'll be tuning in to that. We'll probably be trying to stream that live

and that should be 6pm Pacific. And my understanding is the one of probably, we will be trying to stream that live and that should be 6 p.m. Pacific. And my understanding is the one of Stephen Hackett will be trying to get the episode out as soon as he possibly can from when we're finished recording. So I hope that we'll see you around for that. If not, tuning in live or checking out the episode will be great.

But Jason Snow, congratulations on your draft win. Thank you, Mike. And thanks to the judges for going my way. And thanks to Tim Cook for not appearing on stage one more time. And we'll be back with a more regular episode next week. Snell Talk on Ask Upgrade will return. But today we had to talk. Send us your questions.

I think next week may just be a breakdown of all this stuff. I'll follow up. Hashtag Ask Upgrade. Ask Upgrade. If you've got questions for us about stuff that you've seen, stuff you haven't seen, stuff you want our opinions on for next next week's episode would be wonderful. Hashtag AskUpgrade for those.

Until then, we'll be back next time. Say goodbye, Jason Snell. Goodbye, Mike Hurley.