Upgrade - 328: Secure, But Terrible

Episode Date: November 30, 2020

This week Jason embraces the iPhone 12 mini and then reboots his complaints about Apple's focus on Mac security leading to bad user-experience issues. Then we consider the future, as we interpret early reports about new Apple Watch, iPad, and MacBook Pro models for 2021.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 328 and today's show is brought to you by pingdom sanebox and hover my name is mike hurley and i am joined by mr jason snell hi jason hi mike happy cyber monday oh is it? Oh, man. I didn't get you anything for Cyber Monday. Oh. Well. Oh. Let me tell you, I'm just really tired of them commercializing Cyber Monday.

I remember back when it wasn't this commercial. I got you something for Cyber Monday. What'd you get me? A hashtag snow talk question, and this week's comes from Matt. Matt wants to know, if you needed to download an app from a big company, you know, say Slack or a Microsoft app or something like that, by default, do you go to their website or do you go to the Mac App Store? I don't have a default because it depends on how I'm getting it.

Like, if you log into a website, like I'll give you an example. Like I think Dropbox isn't in the Mac app store, but the point is you, you'd log into their website and then they give you a download link. Well, then I'm just going to download it from the site. If they give me a download link as I've logged in or signed up for their service or whatever, I'm going to go that way. Uh, sometimes there's a beta, like a Slack beta, there's the Slack beta for Apple Silicon. And so I'm downloading it from them. And a while ago I had a Slack beta, there's the Slack beta for Apple Silicon. And so I'm downloading it from them. And a while ago, I had a Slack beta. And again, you go straight from them. In other cases, I will go right to the Mac App Store. It really varies. I'd say because I have been doing this a long time,

I'm more used to going to people's websites and downloading them. But I'm also happy to get that stuff in the Mac App Store. So there's no default, and I'd say there's no one way I do it. I've got some stuff that's in Mac App Store and some stuff that's not. I think all the Microsoft stuff I have is downloaded from the Microsoft website using their installer,

even though they're on the Mac App Store. So, yeah. I don't have a default, and I know this because I annoy myself that when i set up a new mac i go to download an app and it's telling me to buy it and it's like well i've already bought it right oh because i bought it directly so then i have to go find the email which has the key in it it is a bit of an i is a bit of a nightmare really trying to set up a new mac sometimes because you have to try and remember this exact thing right like where did i get this piece of software and then yeah how on

earth do i find the key for it it is easier to go through your purchase list in the mac app store isn't it way easier and then i have this thing where there was a point in time when i started putting the keys in one password um but there's also a point of time where i didn't do that yeah so having just set up the the macbook air with running on the m1 i had that moment where i was like where is this registration key and in the end i mean i go to my email app and i'm i search for the license and it's there it's always there and i could put could put it into 1Password, but I don't. Well, but this is that thing of like, I've already proven the fact that I'm inconsistent.

So I obviously inconsistently save the keys too. Because you know what? I'm a human being. Well, that's why I use Gmail is that the keys are just in my archive. They're just always there. So there you go. It's important's important to know so anyway that's the answer matt mike is human this is one of those things where i wished there was i wished that the mac app store is what i wanted it to be which was just a situation where every developer found

it beneficial to be there and chose to have all of their software there so i just had to go to one place because then i would get all the benefits right i wouldn't have to worry about any of this stuff i could just set it all up as new and it'd be nice and easy but it isn't and i don't honestly i don't begrudge anybody really like i don't begrudge apple i don't begrudge the developers you know these are just conflicting business models and i'm happy that everybody has the choices that they want to make but as a consumer i really just wished there was a way for me to not have to worry about all this frustration you know

yeah i get it uh the mac app store is not what any of us expected it to be because apple you know decided that it was going to be treated for good and bad because you know i think there was a time when we were all worried that the mac app store was eventually going to be the only way you'd be right at software right but this is you know we know there are so many apps that just can't be in there at all and apple has done a lot of work to make it a better situation but it's still not uh it's still not the answer that maybe we thought it would be but you're right that would be nice if i'm not saying i want apple to have complete control over all mac software i i think it's more that it would be nice if the mac app store was such a

uh an open friendly welcoming place that all mac developers wanted to be in it exactly that's not the case even though it's more welcoming than it was it's never going to be in it. Exactly. That's not the case. Even though it's more welcoming than it was, it's never going to be the case. And so it's going to be a little bit of this and a little bit of that. So it is weird. Matt does get at a good point here, which is it is a little bit weird where you can choose either one. And you're like, what does that mean? Sometimes I'll go to a website, I'll hear about a new indie app, and I'll go to a website and I'll click and they're like, get it in the Mac App Store. I'm like, okay okay then decision made for me yes um but sometimes you end up with the option to do either one like bb edit is in the mac app store and yep out and i i don't have the mac app store version because sometimes i choose not to get the mac app store version because i'm

like is there a feature is there going to be a feature that's only going to be in the direct version because apple won't allow it or you know so then you like you just have to you're given this kind of thing it's like do i choose the easy path or do i choose like the path where i'm at least potentially going to get everything i might want to get in the future like you make a decision now which you have no way of knowing whether it's going to be the right decision for you in three or four years time and sometimes utilities are live you know through their updater if they're using like sparkle or something outside of the mac app store way before they get their update approved yeah on the mac app store so there's a new version and you've got the mac app store version you kind

of have to wait also a lot of these utilities uh they use the sparkle framework for updating and they've and they've got an opt-in to the beta and then you get more you get access to betas which of course there's still no test flight for mac os unbelievable there's still no test flight for the mac so you know anyway i have no clear answer and yet we talked about this for a while that's good podcasting if you would like to send in a snell talk question to help us answer this just open the show just like matt did just send out a tweet with the hashtag snell talk or use the command question mark snell talk in the relay fm members discord i would like to thank everybody who has so far entered a vote for the 2020 upgradies this is our annual awards show You can go to upgradies.vote,

and there'll be a link in the show notes for that, of course, as well, so you can enter your votes. We have had hundreds upon hundreds of entries so far, Jason. Good start. I can tell you, so far, we have had a... Let me see. I'm just going to my very, very, very, very large spreadsheet here.

me see i'm just going to my very very very very large spreadsheet here uh over 350 entries so far from our upgradians so this is a good start we need more oh definitely we'll get more entries more nominations seventh annual by the way my seventh annual so you can go and make your nominations you don't have to answer for every category, but you can if you want to. But you can answer as many as you like there. And they'll all be taken into account when we do the Upgradees towards the end of the year. So go to Upgradees.vote and you can cast your votes for this year's Upgradees. I wanted to have a little discussion with you, Jason, for Upstream today. I wanted to have a little discussion with you, Jason, for Upstream today. It's not news.

There's some little bits and bobs out there, but I wanted to actually talk to you about something you sent me a while ago now. This was a tweet from Rich Lightfield, who says, Apple TV Plus has meaningfully outperformed Disney Plus in year one in terms on original programming, especially programming for anyone over the age of 10. Apple don't get enough credit for this, especially with no catalog or history in content production. So basically Rich is saying Apple has done a better job than say Disney Plus

has with original programming in its first year. It is a hot take. And I love it. And that is how it is positioned in that original tweet yeah and i love it it is provocative it is unfair right like saying apple tv plus has outperformed disney plus in terms of original programming in year one is a little bit like, I don't know, saying that Michael Jordan was outplayed at baseball by pick a baseball player name. Like it's not the same game.

They're not playing the same game. There's a basketball player that's baseball. They're different. It's like that. Sorry, I should use a soccer player. That would make more sense for you. But Lionel Messi is outplayed at football by Tom, It's like that. Sorry, I should use a soccer player. That would make more sense for you. Lionel Messi is outplayed at football by Tom Brady.

I actually, having seen The Last Dance, I understood the Michael Jordan reference better. Okay, all right. So it's not fair. Disney Plus is different. Disney Plus is a strategy by Disney that includes Disney's whole catalog, all of their movies. It is targeted, like he says,

under the age of 10. It is targeted at families, so it's got a lot of kid content from the Disney archive and some original programming. And while I share his sentiment, which is I find the Disney Plus launch of original content

a little bit disappointing, as an adult, they had some kids programming that was there that people liked for me disney plus the first six months it existed was pretty much just the mandalorian in terms of things i've been interested in they did drop hamilton they've done some other stuff i I liked the Imagineering documentary series. And I just watched the Marvel 616 one, which was pretty good too. Not as good as the Imagineering one,

but still pretty good. Yeah, that one felt more like DVD extras edited together than the other one did. But yeah, there's good stuff. And the behind the scenes on The Mandalorian has been good too. So I think Disney Plus, it's interesting that their whole strategy just is for original original content especially for

a broad audience is still ramping up the fact that disney plus has been out for a year now and there's still no marvel series and some of that is covid there probably would have been a new marvel series by now but uh i i'm still surprised that they didn't have a marvel series ready to go two months after their star wars series and they didn't um a Marvel series ready to go two months after their Star Wars series, and they didn't. But it is a different game because Apple TV Plus has no catalog. As we've talked about here for years, it has no catalog. All they can do is original content. Their whole strategy is original content. I mean, technically, they do have a catalog. There are a few things that they've bought. They've got the Peanuts catalog now. They've got those Ewan McGregor,

Charlie Borman, what is it? Motor motorcycle documentaries that preceded the one that's the apple original like they have they have a very few little old stuff and it's usually tied to new content that they're working on but they're an original content factory that's what they are this this person's name was rich greenfield not rich lightfield he works with a company called light shed so i put them all together so we'll maybe okay rich light shed greenfield i don't know i apologize um so so apple is playing a different game than disney uh it is focused on original content they can't make it with their apple's huge catalog of beloved children's animated movies because they don't have any. There isn't one.

But what I like about this hot take is the fact that I have spent way more time watching Apple TV Plus than Disney Plus in the last year. And that is undeniable. Way more time. And not what we expected. No. I think.

No. And it's part of like we talked about hbo max becoming this sort of they take the hbo brand but they broadened it because they want it to be the warner media broad strategy they want to end up being like netflix um and and apple tv plus is kind of being like hbo was which is that it's a smaller set of content but it's original content and and with high production values and we'll see how it goes for them but they they and i certainly haven't watched a lot of apple's output i have picked and chosen but i still watched way more and spent way more time even with the first and

second seasons of mandalorian and hamilton and some other stuff on there imagineering story the behind the scenes i've definitely spent more time on apple tp plus and i find that surprising yeah the shows that i have watched from apple's content i have loved way more than the stuff i've seen from disney's and i still haven't seen the mandalorian it's next up for our show stuff i haven't seen any of it. But I was kind of expecting, I think we all were maybe expecting more from Disney in year one. And understandably, they have been delayed, right? I think some of this stuff has been delayed. I'm still eagerly awaiting a lot of their Marvel TV shows.

And I'm sure that's going to be great. But it's not like I haven't used Disney+. We watched all the Marvel movies, pretty much every single Pixar movie. But the point here is that it's like the original content. I was maybe expecting more from Disney like you were as well. But all of the original content of Apples that I have watched, I have loved.

So that includes for all mankind the morning show mythic quest and ted lasso that's the stuff that i've watched all of it of and i've really loved all of those i think they've done a great job and i eagerly await more of them but it's just been interesting to see a thing that i don't think any of us would have expected It's just been interesting to see a thing that I don't think any of us would have expected, is that Apple has actually done a very good job and actually very good compared to some of their competitors as well, which it just didn't really seem like that was going to be the way that this ended up shaking out. Yeah, and it's launch stuff too, right? Like this is all getting the machinery running and then COVID has placed an extra roadblock

in getting that machinery running. So it's going to take a while for us to see this. And I understand the argument that people could very easily make and would be correct is that Disney didn't have to. Well, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. The number one value proposition of disney plus is the disney library yeah it's not the originals no for me the number one proposition is the

originals i'm less interested in the library in fact the disney library content that i am interested in i bought all i already have most of it yeah so going forward that's not going to be the case and that actually will add value like there's a new pixar movie debuting on christmas and i'm not going to buy that and if we want to go back and watch some of the pixar movies that i haven't bought there they are in 4k hdr beautiful disney plus great that's fantastic they're playing a different game. But as somebody who is primarily concerned with original programming, I think it's interesting, although not surprising, I suppose. Apple TV Plus, all they have is their originals. That's how they have to do everything.

Disney Plus hasn't had to do that yet. But I do think it changes the value proposition, especially if you are not somebody with younger kids to look at disney plus because and that's why disney plus in the end does have to cultivate the marvel audience and the star wars audience and and other audiences to make it a broad-based service but it's not surprising they started with their strength it's not all right this episode is brought to you by our friends over at SaneBox. Email is such a huge time waster at work. So much of my time is taken up by email. I know that so much of your time is too.

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and RelayFM. Jason, a couple of days ago, you mentioned to me in a Slack message that you'd switched your SIM over to the iPhone 12 mini. Can I ask you what prompted that decision and how are you feeling about it? Well, I haven't written my review of The Big and Little Phone because it happened so late. Are you going to write something? You are still. I mean, they sent them to me. I feel like I do need to, but I'm just trying to take a totally different approach because everybody's, you know, the moment has passed for like those immediate reviews.

So it needs to be something about using it in the long run. And I, I've been, I had been using the 12 mini like around the house on wifi and stuff. And I thought, this is silly. I need to commit and put the SIM card in and, and move my Apple watch over to it and just have it be,

uh, my primary phone. Yeah, exactly. And so I did that maybe a week ago. You've done a lot of phone moving this year, right? I hit, just as an aside, I hit the device limit

for Apple devices, and you may be thinking it's the 5 Max limit for Apple Music. It's not. It's the 10 Apple devices active limit for Apple devices. And you may be thinking it's the 5 max limit. For Apple music. It's not. It's the 10 Apple devices active limit. For Apple music. And I was trying to play Apple music. While writing on my new MacBook Air. And it said. I'm sorry you can't.

You have the most Apple devices. On your account. And I went. To the page. Where they let you turn off. Apple devices. And say no this is not on my account and i went to the page where they let you turn off apple devices and say no this is not on my account anymore and nine of the ten couldn't be removed because they were added too recently um only the last intel iMac which i reviewed back in august was eligible to be removed because there's like a 90 day window. Oh.

And so I, I basically hit and I'm now back at that limit having attached my, my MacBook air to it. I have hit that limit. The other limit, the 10 active Apple devices streaming on Apple music on one Apple ID. And this happens to me from time to time where I get worried that somebody, maybe it's been, I've been moving through a lot of devices, right? I had that iMac and the iPad Air and four models of iPhone. And what I should probably do is a dummy account, maybe even a fake family member or something. But like,

I don't want to, you know, you need to use it with your real stuff i think and if you're going to use and review something so anyway so many devices the only thing like this i ever have any issues with is the app specific password thing for icloud accounts like calendars and stuff yeah i don't do that anymore that's the only thing i ever have any problems with with that kind of stuff but that's. So there's a 90 day window for being able to remove them. Yeah. Because the idea there is that, um, they don't want you cycling devices, uh, through Apple IDs. And so a device can only be attached to another Apple ID 90 days after it's been detached

from, or 90 days after it was attached to the previous Apple ID, I guess is how it works. And so you end up in this mode where if you cycle a lot of devices onto your iCloud account, you will end up hitting, or your Apple ID, you'll hit the limit. And I've been so busy with new Apple devices this fall that it turns out apparently i've connected 10 of them well not 10 including my imac right so nine of them to this uh to this account so yeah it's uh it's been i had a lot of products including all those phones so yeah there's been a lot going on it's um it's funny because i was just thinking like oh it's been a weird year for device releases you know but this is probably just every year now it may be with the maybe i mean it was yeah so i ended up with an iMac, an iPad, four phones, three Macs, three M1 Macs.

Yeah. That's nine. And then the 10th was, I think, my computer. It's maybe possible that in future years you wouldn't have to have, not have to have, but you know what I mean, all four phones. Like if they do come out all at the same time, which is what they will ideally do. I want all four. And in the past, I've always gotten every model. So that will, you know, hopefully that will continue.

I think having three Macs land on one day is unlikely. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That doesn't happen that often. I mean, the last time anything like that, I think, happened was in 2018 when they did the MacBook Air and the mac mini update and so there were two new macs landing on that day but you know these are these are minor

problems it's just funny because i had i'm just using a regular it's just my apple id that i've always had like i'm not using some magic special apple id and uh and then when you use it in a way that's not expected weird things can happen full credit to only one of my banks got fed up with all of the Apple Pays and said, you need to call. Okay. All right. Fair. That's fair. So going back to the iPhone 12 mini itself, have you had any kind of new revelations with using it kind of more as your phone rather than just a curiosity? Well, so our friend Quinn, Snazzy Q, friend of the show, friend of the network, podcaster on the network.

He started using a mini, 12 mini. Hey, he loves it. 12 mini and tweeted today i saw his tweet that said uh just picked up the iphone 12 regular and it's hilariously large and i want to co-sign that you spend a little time with that iphone 12 mini and then you pick up a regular iphone 12 and you think oh no no it can't be. This is ridiculous. Is this the max? No, this is the regular. That's how I feel about it. I am loving the mini. It feels so natural to use it.

I don't feel like I'm missing anything at all. The screen, I don't ever have a moment where I'm like, oh, this screen is so small the only quirk that i've noticed that made me really laugh is sometimes in my pocket the iphone 12 mini can turn entirely sideways i'm like no no phone i don't want you that direction but it can fit in my pocket sideways i mean i could get my phone in my pocket sideways but i can't want you that direction but it can fit in my pocket sideways i mean i could get my phone in my pocket sideways but i can't move my leg after that yeah and then it's because you wear clown pants that's why there's just mostly sweatpants at the moment oh okay that's well it's 2020 i i i get it uh yeah i had a moment where i was walking uh and wearing just wearing jeans and it turned sideways in my pocket.

I thought, oh boy, this is ridiculous. But yeah, I love it. And the screen size works great for me. And it's really fun to take it around. Mostly it's just around the house, but I'm like, I'll just look at my phone here. And it's this teeny tiny thing. And it's great. great so uh my my short review for this podcast is uh it is everything of the iphone 12 which i already liked uh but uh less is more i look forward to actually being able to hold and use one at some point in the future i've never seen one never seen one which is such a strange thing

it's like there's this iphone out there but i i don't i haven't seen it i don't know anybody that's got one and come on over to my house you can check it out i'll just pop it's easy once the lockdown eases you can pop into the apple store and just caress their all their phones yeah they're gonna have to wipe you down first yeah i don't think i still don't want to go to the Apple Store inside. They need like an open-air Apple Store. That's what they need next. Open-air Apple Store.

I'm sure that will go really well. On the roof of Covent Garden. You know what else I want to talk to you about today? I saw you... Again, we were talking about this and then you wrote a little post about it, which I think was good because you've been holding the torch

for questioning some of the security decisions that Apple's been making on macOS over the last couple of years. You know, like you were very strong and have been strong about some of the changes in Catalina. And I don't think you're being, I don't think you're like trying to like burn them at the stake kind of thing,

but kind of pointing out that like, okay, this is how the situation is. do we need it to be this way um and you wrote a post about some of the security changes with security on the m1 max which is even more strict than it is on big sir alone can you talk to me about what this is sure and you know my concern about this is not that i want macs to be less secure and i want mac users to be insecure because i don't my concern is i expressed with catalina last summer summer of 2019 is that sometimes i feel like apple security team decisions carry maybe more weight than the user experience ramifications of those decisions. And it is a balance, right? We have learned, I think, in terms of computer security,

that there are often cases where adding more security makes for a worse product, or it makes things less secure because human beings will then do things to evade security. less secure because human beings will then do things to evade security. And I feel like Apple has a reputation. Apple has this focus on its users and on their experience using their devices. And that sometimes the security needs that Apple feels override. And I don't know what's going on on the inside, but it sure feels like sometimes if there's an argument between security and user experience that security just wins. And again, I want security, but I feel like there's got to be a little more of a focus on making sure that the security comes without eroding ease of use of software and the whole experience of people using a Mac. And obviously, with Catalina,

there are lots of on launch, you get all sorts of alerts, or you download software, and you get all sorts of alerts. And sometimes you have to go to you open an app, and it says, well, now you need to open the system preferences app and go to this very particular pane and then put in your password by clicking the lock screen or the little lock icon and then go over and find the app and then check the box and then it'll say you need to quit and relaunch this app in order for it to work right and in catalina there was a button that says like this app is a bad app and you yeah that's right this app is on could be malware. And in Catalina, it would say, you need to quit and relaunch. Here's a button to quit it. Not relaunch it. In Big Sur, actually, well, quit it and relaunch it, which is nice. It's like, yeah, you're a computer. You know how to do that. You should just do that. a fantastic piece of software that anybody who records audio on the Mac probably already uses or should use from Rogue Amoeba.

They had to do a lot of work this summer for Big Sur. There were a bunch of security changes in Mac OS Big Sur that made it very hard for their audio capture engine, ACE, that is at the core of most of the Rogue Amoeba apps to work with Big Sur. And they had to work with Apple, is my understanding, to get it to work. And it works.

They released a Big Sur version right about the time the Big Sur came out. So that's great. Great story. And on Intel Max, you have to install the system extension using this system extension path. It's not a kernel extension

for those who are super nerdy it's not it's actually just a an apple approved method of extending the system that i think apple specifically advised rogue amoeba to use in this situation but if you do it you have to approve that in the system preferences and then it says i need to reboot your mac this system extension thing is the path for stuff like kernel extensions in the future though right like they're getting rid of the old system and yeah they have a new they have a new system that is more separated and approved by apple and you have to get things signed and approved and all of these things and then there's this whole security pathway you go into but just to be clear unlike some hardware things that might be they're replacing kernel extensions

with these signed extensions but that's that's what this is this is not a kernel extension um it's a it's just a a signed system extension from rogamiba you still have to reboot on an Intel Mac. On an M1 Mac, you have to reboot multiple times. On an M1 Mac, it says, hey, you want to install this thing. You go through all this process and it says, wait, you can't install this thing because your Mac is at highest security

and you need to lower the security of your Mac in order to allow this thing to run at all. So click here and reboot and hold down the power button so you get to the new startup options screen. And you have to go in. And Rogamiba has a hilariously detailed. It's great, but the hilarity is that they have to do this. Hilariously detailed explanation of how you get to the right screen so that you can check the box that says lower my security, which is like, it's scare words. There is no lowest security setting on M1 Macs.

There's only sort of like high and lower. Full security and reduced security. Reduced security. That's the name of it. And then you have to check a box that says allow kernel extensions, which it's not but you still have to check that box it says allow kernel extensions yeah and then you reboot um again so i guess you know technically you could say that it's it's uh it's three reboots so anyway you have to reboot again to get back there. The thing that frustrates me about this is if someone can and will make a very detailed support document outlining how you do this, what's the point in having it? Well, I think, I mean, you're right. This is always the argument about the security stuff is if a user can override it.

This is how malware spreads now. Like Apple's got the whole gatekeeper thing and all that, but you can still say, well, for our app, you need to, you can't just open it. You have to hold down the control key and click on it and then choose open. They step you through the ways to subvert the security system. Like that already happens.

That's already a thing that happens. So that, you know, i think this has to be signed and all of that so there's like extra apple security and scrutiny that goes on these things but um it's a good question i haven't gotten by the way we're not out of the reboot loop yet because once you set the the the reduced security and boot back into mac os and you do your technically second reboot it's not it's only two reboots out of the user uh but there's three reboots um three you get to hear the chime three times that's fun uh you go back and now you're back where you were before which

is at the system preferences dialogue uh where it says do you want to install this thing put in your password and of course, so basically what you've done is you've lowered it to the level of security that's on an Intel Mac. Remember, Intel Macs still had to reboot to install it. And indeed, M1 Macs will need to reboot to install it. So you will do another reboot. You will hear that chime another time. And then it works. And it's great that it it works and it's a great piece of software and it is not rogue amoeba's fault that they are in this situation and this is where i think i i am trying to be very understanding about the the hard job that apple security people have with mac

os because mac os was built at a very different time and security needs were very different then and so we have these operating systems these older operating systems that are not locked down like ios is and they're trying to bring in concepts from ios and lock down a thing that was never designed to be that way and it's hard i like i i totally get that it's a hard job and they're trying to protect users and from bad actors and there are bad actors out there i get get it. I do, though, have those moments where I think, surely somebody has to look at this step of instructions, this set of instructions, which is like the worst kind of installation process that you would have to install a third-party scanner, SCSI scanner in the 1990s like it is it is a blast from the past in a bad way and say what can we do to make this not take two or three depending on who you ask reboots to get the desired effect what can we do yeah and be clever about it because you could make the argument is like look this is the system you know it's those it's those typical apple

arguments where it's like apple can do anything at once but um not this this is too hard for apple it's like i don't believe it's too hard for apple i think apple should scrutinize a decision like this and say what could we do could we could we allow the user to authorize the installation of the kernel extension, or in this case, system extension, in advance. So that on the next reboot, if we were in reduced security mode, it would be installed. And then kick off a reboot. Is there a way for us to set that on the reboot, we're going to go, after you authenticate, straight to that screen? after you authenticate straight to that screen and allow you to click the button and check the box

rather than have to check your instruction sheet in order to figure out how to navigate to it and get there. Maybe that's something we could do. And maybe they will get there. I mean, this is the first generation of M1 Macs. This is some new stuff that's in Big Sur. Rogamiba may be the first piece of software that has really tested this approach

because they're longtime Mac developers. They actually really care about their users and they care about the Mac and they made the effort over this summer to figure all this stuff out, which is good for them. So maybe they are causing Apple to think about these things and we will see Apple move positively in this direction. But I just wanted to call it out because first off, it's great that it works because I get the sense from looking at what's going on here that they had to do a huge amount of work to get their software to run on Big Sur at all, and on Apple Silicon especially. But also to say, this is one of those examples where Apple has leaned forward with its security, and it's caused a huge step backward in the user experience and i don't think

apple like the soul of the mac is prioritizing good user experience and there are these moments where i look at stuff and i think the security people put this in and either user experience was overridden or not given a chance to participate in the process and you end up with something that is secure but terrible and secure but terrible is not uh i mean it's not much of a slogan in general but it's something that apple needs to not be about right apple wants to be about security and privacy but not at the expense of user experience. This episode is brought to you by Pingdom from SolarWinds. While you've been listening to this podcast, how would you know if your website had gone down?

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to get a huge 30% off your first invoice. That's pingdom.com slash RelayFM for a 14-day free trial and the code UPGRADE for 30% off your first invoice. Our thanks to Pingdom from SolarWinds for their support of this show invoice. Our thanks to Pingdom from SolarWinds for their support of this show and RelayFM. So there's been a slew of new rumors from Ming-Chi Kuo, friend of the show, because yes, it is time to talk about more upcoming products, because there are products still upcoming, very upcoming, in fact.

Like we may have had an incredibly busy last couple of months, but we're very aware of the fact that Apple is at a point right now where there are many of their product lines that are seemingly in need of or expected to be updated than I think we would typically see, right?

We know all the Macs are going to be updated than i think we would typically see right we know all the macs are going to be updated and we're expecting some in some significant ways obviously we know the things that we know are updated on an annual basis the phones the watches whatever but also because of the introduction of the very pro seeming ipad air we are expecting a significant update to the iPad Pro as well. So there is a selection of rumors and reports from Min-Chi Kuo, who is, I think, I would say, one of, if not the most reliable supply chain reporter. I think so. I think so. Which is why there are two people

whose reports we will always give time to on this show. One is Quo's, the other is German's. Like their track records are very, very good. For Minchi Quo, at least, especially getting things within a certain area, right? Like detail can sometimes be a bit shaky, but you can, you know, he usually has a pretty good idea of things in general so one of the rumors i think this is maybe one of the more unexpected of the three categories we're going to talk about today is a rumored new form factor for apple watch so one of the quotes from i mean she calls report which is coming to us via nine to five where we're putting this from today. It says, innovative health management functions

and improved form factor design. So part one of that is a given, right? Innovative health management functions. There's always going to be new health stuff. Of course. For the Apple Watch. I don't know what new sensors will be next up, but there's always going to be something.

But improved form factor design is different to me. It's an interesting thought. We didn't really get much of that from 4 to 5, but the 3 to 4 was a big change where they kind of made the screen more edge-to-edge-like. They changed the sizes, the actual physical sizes of the watches as well. In your mind what could a new

form factor for the apple watch series seven look like i think you mean improved form factor right which is not the same first off by the way i just want to say form factor i hate it it's a weird phrase right shape i wrote it a bunch today and was like, I don't think I like this phrase. I don't like the word at all. If you listen to or read any of my 20 Max or 2020 things, you will note the lack of form factor. I'm not interested in that phrase. It's dumb.

A new design for the Apple Watch. Well, he says improved design for the Apple Watch, doesn't he? What does that mean? My guess is it will be the same round rect because that's like what the Apple Watch looks like now, but it will be thinner. You know, maybe there'll be other changes to it. You've got, you put in our notes,

maybe it joins the flat sides revolution. I don't know. That would be interesting. I looked at my Apple Watch today as I was thinking about this, and I was like, yes, thinner. I always want thinner. I'm always asking for thinner. The Apple Watch is too thick.

It has always been too thick and still too thick. But when I looked at it, I was like, I see a lot of the case. I don't have to see so much of it. They could bring it in. I don't know if it would go flat sides, but could, and I think should, have a flatter side aesthetic. And I think you could maybe go halfway,

you know, like still see a little bit of the case, but instead of having the rounded edges, maybe flatten those off a little bit on the sides i think that would be my guess is that apple watch uh with an improved design would be uh like that it would be recognizably apple watch but a little bit different and i think thinner i i'm with you i think the number one thing they should do with the Apple watch design is just keep pushing it as thin as you possibly can, because it is still too thick. I've gotten used to it. But, you know, if I look at it, I'm like, yeah, that's a, that's a big, thick watch. It should be thinner. Try to make it thinner. That's Steve Jobs is standing over you saying thinner, always thinner, right? Like that's the, that's the law. And it should be it it's got a lot of and i know it's hard right but like that's what they should they should be focusing on i think more than anything is that especially like the thickness of it is accentuated by the fact that it sits off

of your wrist because of the senses you know depending on how tight you have to watch i don't have my watch so tight that i'm left of an indent. I know some people wear their watches that way. I wear it with a little looseness because that's what I like. So it's already sitting off of my wrist, and then the watch begins. So it's too thick. Now, I understand what you're saying about the watch design being this rounded rectangle. I want a round Apple Watch watch i've always wanted a round apple watch i really want one um because i don't like rectangular watches i like round watches

and i would very much like to see what apple could do with a design like that because i i really want to see one um i don't think that there's any reason why they wouldn't try it in the future. I don't think it's going to be now, but you know, designs are there to be changed. And I could imagine a re-imagining of the Apple Watch in a round form factor in the future. It's still something I want. I don't think I'm going to get it anytime soon, but I would really love to see it. I would love to see it too. I also don't think it's going to happen because I do think that the Apple Watch shape has become part of the brand of the Apple Watch, right? I think that the Apple Watch, everybody knows what an Apple Watch looks like. I was watching a documentary the other day and there's a person with an Apple Watch. I'm like, oh, Apple Watch, there it is,

right? Like you can just, at a glance, you know, it's an Apple Watch. That's pretty good branding and marketing, right? That shape, people know what it is. It's an apple watch that's pretty good branding and marketing right that shape people know what it is it's an apple watch and so that makes it harder to change but i agree traditionally watches around and i would like to see apple's take on a round watch but i don't think they're probably going to do it anytime soon if they did that would be fun but i think uh i think probably not yeah I understand what you're saying, but I also don't agree with it. Like the idea of like, the Apple Watch is recognized as being this

because it's what it is. If they changed it, it would just ultimately be recognized as the new thing that it is after a period of time. It's like the iPhone now looks really different to the iPhone, how it used to look. You just get used to it. Yeah, and yet apple has kind of carefully

evolved that i would say going from a round rect to a circle is a big change and they're still rapidly growing the apple watch um and so i would be hesitant and i think apple would be hesitant to move away from the the value they get in that defining shape in fact what i would say is if they do a round watch i suspect that what they'll do is they'll buy for kate the product line and there'll be two watches there'll be a round watch and there'll be the round wreck yeah i can imagine right it's apple watch classic or whatever like i i think that they would probably do it like that because there is value um i get what you're saying but i think there's value in in that shape and that they still want to have that but you're i mean it's also it's apple

apple if they want to they'll just drop it right like they they've done that before if they want to do it they'll just choose to do it 20 max for 2020 has taught me so far jason is they'll do a lot of stuff yeah that's true especially when something may be less so but yeah you're right you're right if they if they decide that round is the right way to do it and they just up to now, they have not been able to do round in a way that pleased them and that they finally have gotten it that way. Could Apple come up with a brand new Apple Watch this or in fall of 2021 and say, you know, here it is. We're breaking compatibility. Your bands don't work. Everything's round.

You know, the new version of watchOS, good luck developers. Like they could, they could do that. It would be interesting to see what the developer story would be because it would actually be pretty dramatically painful for watch app developers to deal with that. Although there are complications within the circular watch faces. So that would probably be what they did to start and then maybe there's like a compatibility mode where apps that are not round play in a little square inside they could do it it's just it's going to cause pain when they went from three to four they broke the complications right and it's and they'll do it if they want to right that's the lesson that apple has taught us if they want

to do it they're just going to do it they're not going to like watch band compatibility developers being unhappy like if they think that the round watch is the right thing to do they'll just do it and everybody else will be like all right i guess we're doing this now yeah so like to double down on that point that you just made right uh i'm not saying that they will do it but the idea of it will be difficult for developers is not a thing right that that will make apple choose to not do something like that's not the thing if they don't do it there's a million other reasons i um i don't think that like oh the fact that developers will have to work hard like they've changed products so many times you know

like even looking at the ipad pro when they went to the newer screen sizes like we've got to update your app. They just don't fit anymore because now you have these black bars on the top and bottom. They will make these changes if they want to. I don't think they're going to do a round watch, but I want a round watch. They should continue to... The Apple Watch is still a young enough

product that it should be getting refinements. Especially something I'm putting on my body needs getting refinements especially something i'm putting on my body needs more refinements like then i personally then i think they're giving it um you know we're on to the sixth apple watch and it's only looked different three times that's you know i personally i think that they should be pushing that further than they are and they have done so far so we also have uh you know kind of what we're thinking of as the more pro iPad Pro is what we're expecting, right?

Like we are expecting the next iPad Pro to take a leap because that's the way that it makes sense to us at the moment considering the iPad Air. So Ming-Chi Kuo is reporting that we should see a new iPad Pro in the first half of 2021. It's kind of a little bit unclear exactly when. We'll obviously see 5G get added to the iPad Pro line. That is an inevitability.

And one of the bigger features that is being rumored is mini LED display technology. This would be the first of many products that Apple is looking to move to this technology. Apparently, Apple, they seem pretty invested in it at this point. It is expected that it will also come to some Macs. We'll talk about that in a bit. In a nutshell, mini LED offers many of the benefits of OLED with the ability to have higher peak brightness because

it's backlit where oled isn't and it also has greater control over local dimming so because of all of this you can get better color reproduction higher contrast than what you have on say a mac or an ipad pro right now but because there is a backlight it cannot reproduce uh dark blacks as well as oled can so it gets you lots of the benefits of oled but not all of them right because it's still oled the individual pixels are themselves emitting light yeah um any backlight there's a light behind the screen that is that is blasting out light and even if they're the teeniest tiniest ones it's still a black backlight and there's still light leakage and stuff like that but it's it should be a huge upgrade in terms of of display

quality going to to this led technology it's just not the same as oled but oled panels are expensive and there's you know that's part of apple same as oled but oled panels are expensive and there's you know that's part of apple's challenges it's oled panels are expensive even in a phone and then you look at a big ipad screen it's like that would be or an imac screen like it's well yeah yeah you're that's you know it's a tv screen at that point so these are the things that are being quoted but i wanted to talk about what else we would want to see in a future ipad pro because now these things are interesting but it doesn't feel like the entire story i would want you know the factor that i'm most concerned about is form mike

what about the form so what do you have any thoughts in mind for the formacular factor of the ipad no i don't want to factor that form at all i like it the way it is in fact it's the standard bearer right it it was the one that said uh hey look at me i'm awesome you iphones should look like me now yeah and the iphone said you got it boss so the ipad pro is in charge is what i'm saying the only thing i would want they wouldn't be able to do this, I don't think, but the only thing I would want is for the iPad Pro to get lighter, purely because with the Magic Keyboard, with trackpad, it's just overall a heavier package than I would want.

And I can't imagine them being able to make the Magic Keyboard any lighter and it still work properly. So I would want them to somehow magically make the iPad Pro a bit lighter, but still worked properly. So I would want them to somehow magically make the iPad Pro a bit lighter. But I don't know how they would do that. I don't think you can make it any thinner. Yeah, just fill it with helium. That's how you do it.

Easy, easy peasy. Here's the thing. People get asked this a bunch. Seeing this question a lot these days. What is the future of the iPad? Which chip is inside the my guess is that it's going to be something very much like the m1 except they will probably call it the a14x but i would be surprised if it's not literally the m1 uh maybe a binned version of the m1 like i just i feel like because the m1 although it adds a

bunch of stuff that the mac needs i mean if you look at the number of cores and all that like and and if you dig into some of the details it's a very clearly an evolution of the a12x so i think it's a marketing decision my guess is that it will essentially be an M1. Maybe just the 8GB of RAM version or whatever. Well, or again, this is an alternate package that's got 6, right? But it'll be on a package with less RAM because the iPad needs less RAM. And you don't choose. It will essentially be the M11 more or less and uh that'll

be what it is because the m1 is an evolution of the a12x so why would it not essentially be the a14x and why make two why make two different chip designs i mean there are there are savings potentially but like i could see the savings being um greater to just have two chip designs and especially if you can kind of like use binning to take the the ones that have uh something a little bit wrong with them and those become ipad chips instead of mac chips i don't know we'll see uh so much for the being the boss of all the products if it's getting the secondhand chips but anyway that's my guess is that they'll call the a14x but people will look at it chip experts will look at it and they'll say, it's really the M1. Yeah, this one will be pretty easy to guess

if the numbers are the same. You know, like how many transistors does it have, which I might talk about, like how many machine learning cores or whatever does it have, right? Like we'll be able to see how much of the specs match up. Yeah, exactly.

And I just don't, again, I am not a chip designer. I don't know whether it would be cheaper to make a cheaper version of the M1 that's more focused on the iPad or just use the M1. My general feeling, my gut feeling overview kind of thing

would be surely it's easier to just use an existing design that you're making for all of these laptops and mac minis rather than do a bespoke chip that is very similar but for the ipad pro and if we do believe that the m1 is kind of just a marketing choice by apple for what is really an evolution of the A12X, then why not sort of take it and put it back in the iPad Pro? So yeah, we'll find out. But my guess is they'll call it A14X because they don't want to confuse people about why is there a Mac chip in the iPad Pro. They could. Apple can do what they want. But it might be a more confusing story to say that the ipad pro

also gets the m1 then again they've raved about how great the m1 is so who knows i don't know yeah i don't know i don't know i i guess it will it's definitely not going to be called m1 no matter what it is even if it was the same a14x yeah what about accessories do you want new or amended accessories for the ipad pro at all i mean the challenge is the magic keyboard size like are they gonna are they gonna adjust the size of the ipad pro are they gonna make a bigger ipad pro are they going to keep the existing sizes i mean i feel like a bigger one would be a new form factor for sure jason well i feel like the ipad air being the same size as the ipad pro the smaller ipad pro suggests to me that that smaller ipad pro isn't going to exist anymore in that

form so the question is do they make it a little bit bigger? Do they bump both of the iPad Pros up in size a little bit? Or do they take the 12.9 and then put a bigger iPad Pro on top of it? I hadn't thought of this. I understand what you're saying, but I don't know if I feel the same. Yeah, I mean, they could keep them there. It's just kind of funny. They're exactly the same size and they use the same accessories. But it's the same as the iPhone.

Yeah. I guess what I'm saying is, is that a prelude to them doing something else? But you're right. It could just be that now there are going to be two iPads that are the same size, that are very similar, but have some different characteristics and different prices, and they use the same accessories. They could do that. Or it could be a little foreshadowing that the existing ipad pro and that slot's not going to stay there and that 11 inch ipad pro is going to become i don't know what a 12 inch ipad pro and the 12.9 is going to become a 14 inch ipad pro i don't i

don't know i really like the 12.9 size um if there was a slightly smaller one, I'd be interested, right? Like if it could still feel like a large screen iPad, but it wasn't quite as big, I'd be interested in that. But then again, I might, you know, I don't think I want a larger iPad pro I think, but I think some people do. I think artists especially would love having that huge screen. So i think one of the things we need to watch is will apple do a bigger ipad pro and that would go with i mean i know we're talking about accessories but that would require the sizes dictate what happens in terms of the keyboard folio and this and the magic keyboard right because if they change the dimensions they're going to have to do new versions of those accessories if they keep them all the same then they can continue to kind of use the ones that they've already built and and

maybe given that that product hasn't even been out a year yet maybe that's probably the most likely scenario again i don't know right like they've gotten good at making the current small size of the magic keyboard or whatever um yeah and they kept the old ones around for the iPads that inherited those eventually anyway. So I don't think the fact that the iPad Air fits in the smaller iPad's Magic Keyboard should say specifically that the smaller iPad isn't going to see any design changes.

You know what I'm saying? The smart keyboard folio for the previous smaller iPad Pro, which also fit the other iPads, still stuck around after the iPad Pro changed sizes. Yeah. You know? Just because they did create it so it would fit,

doesn't, I mean, it could actually be one of the reasons they do that is so they can transition the other one away way so then they can move around so we we've talked ourself in a circle here about it my my guess my guess though is where does the ipad pro have to go and one place it has to go is up like yeah not that they will do that but like i could you can totally see the presentation right which is oh your movies look so great and and artists have a fuller canvas in which to... And people who are using it to code can have...

Split screen works great on it. I can see the presentation for the gigantic 15-inch iPad Pro Max, right? I can see that presentation. I don't know if they think there's a product there or not, but that would be a place for them to go. That would be a thing for them to try if they wanted to yeah i i would like them to get bigger at the top end i don't want them to get much bigger on the lower sized ipad pro and i know the ipad air exists right and i know the ipad air and the current ipad pro are very similar but the

expectation is that the ipad pro line will continue to go where that's always gone and i like having the best ipad in that smaller size i like that personally for me i get it um i get it. I will remind you that the lower sized iPad Pro has been 9.7, 10.5 and 11. Which is a trend that makes me wonder if they might push it to 11.5 or 12 or something like that. A little bit bigger.

I feel like 11 right now I feel like 11 is about as much as I would want it to go. Just because even though the screen got bigger, that iPad has never really gotten that much bigger than the models that it's replaced. No, I get it. If they ended up keeping the bezels the same size and making the screen bigger,

it's now going in a place that I don't think I want that product to go for me. I hear you. I definitely sense from you that it's like, don't make I want that product to go for me. I hear you. I definitely sense from you that it's like, don't make me use the iPad Air. Don't make me use the iPad Air. I want my iPad Pro at that size. But I want it at that size. So they probably, you know,

I think that there's a very good chance that it will just stay where it is and get these new pieces of technology. I do wonder, also, I feel like the 12.9 is about as big as an iPad should be. But again, I'm not an artist and I can definitely see, I feel like we talk about like an iPad iMac, whether it's a Surface Studio-like thing or some new iOS factor that is formed. And I think a big iPad is the way to do it.

I think that's the way to do it. Not an iMac shape that's actually an iPad or something like that on an easel. I think probably the most likely thing Apple will do is say, we made a big iPad. You said you wanted a big iPad. We made you a big iPad. This is the artist's iPad. It's huge. Just look at that screen.

Isn't it amazing? And it costs a fortune, and here it is. And we'll see if they actually do that or not because I'm not sure how big that market is. But it is a place that iOS could go that it isn't at present, and that's why it's kind of interesting. From a functionality perspective um there are other things that you would look for oh actually before i say that actually one thing on accessories i

would like the magic keyboard to get greater viewing angles yeah wouldn't that be nice to have a magic keyboard uh version two it feels like maybe that's in another year out but if they do a new if they do new sizes it would be nice to see them have a sort of a different take on that and every what we learned with the first two is that the size actually really dictates what you can do with a magic keyboard in terms of viewing angles and things like that right because the smaller one has worse viewing angles than the larger one so what would what would an even larger one be like um but i i hear you um even if the size is the same that accessory is not even nine months old but not even nine months old so so i i don't i don't think it's going to get

redesigned in 2021 but you never know but yeah so i was saying about functionality yeah so i'm thinking like of things that it could get or hardware changes that we could see um we have one and depending on whether you use the Magic Keyboard or not, one and a half USB ports available to the iPad Pro. Would you want to see more there? Could you imagine they may add two ports if it is similar to the M1? I do imagine that. I don't know whether they would do that or not,

although quite honestly, they could put two ports at the bottom of the iPad. It would, I mean, instead of one, it would be fine. I don't know if people even use the one port that's there, most people, for anything but charging. So maybe it doesn't matter. But there are some people who are serious iPad Pro type people who might love the fact that they can, for i do this uh do a podcast on an ipad and also make sure the ipad has enough battery life to continue with the podcast right and you could do that through like a hub or something like that but yeah i don't need personally apple to add another port until they give me more i could do with it which would be actually really being able

to let me record a podcast the way that i want to and that's a software problem and not a hardware problem I agree so a second port I mean it's an iPad Pro it would allow them to be like look how pro the iPad Pro is it has two of these ports they could say oh and they're Thunderbolt USB 4 they're the same ports that are in our Macs

isn't that great and then again it's going to come down to the software how usable they are, but it would allow them to differentiate a little bit, which is why I think there's a chance that they'll do it anyway. Touch ID? I mean, it's there, but the real question is, do they want to do touch ID and face ID together on a product? And I think the iPad pro is less likely because you don't like face ID is fine. There are very few people who are unlocking their iPads with a mask on. and I think the iPad Pro is less likely because Face ID is fine. There are very few people who are unlocking their iPads with a mask on.

Yeah, I think the iPhone will be the next product, if any, to get Touch ID on it, or at least the only one that I can imagine in the near future to get Touch ID as well as Face ID. I agree, but I don't think the need is is quite as strong i'm not saying it's not there but i don't think it's it's quite as strong especially on the ipad pro where i think apple are expecting and or wanting the you the users to have um a keyboard attachment and when you do have a keyboard attached to it it just is much nicer to have face id there because you don't have to reach to the ipad you just keep your hands on the

keyboard and unlock which is really nice i want that magsafe we spoke about this a little bit last time i think yeah i mean the short version i had somebody somebody tweeted about like what about magsafe and we did talk about last time but like a magnetic port on the back of an ipad that lets you charge is literally the smart connector and so the ipad sort of has that and again you wouldn't choose to charge that way because it's not as fast but you might if you're plugged in via that port on the magic keyboard and it's kind of nice to have that so i don't see i feel like apple has built their mag safe for the ipad and it's Smart Connector.

That's what it does. And it's not as fast to charge necessarily, but that's sort of their solution for the iPad. And I think it makes the most sense to do it that way. I want to talk about the cameras as well. Actually, I only want to talk about one camera, the front-facing camera. Yeah, yeah. Obviously, everyone wants them to get better. All front-facing cameras should get better.

It's one of the things we've really learned from 2020 but I would love I really would love to see Apple embrace the form factor of the iPad Pro and put it on the horizontal edge not you know like well to put it centered when you're horizontal that's where people are using the cameras

of their iPad Pros on the long side not the short side it's a form factor change factor yeah it's a factor of the form that i would love to see change what a strange factor that would be did you factor that out is there a fraction in the factor factor it's fraction i uh i get what you're saying which is uh a lot of people use this is this is something that we've beaten up a lot here, which is that we view the iPad as primarily a horizontal product. And Apple seems to think

it's primarily a vertical product, except when it goes in their keyboard case, in which case then it's horizontal. And I agree with you. I cannot tell you how often I have. So like I call my mom on Sundays and I do a FaceTime call and I'm usually on my iPad.

And I end up in that situation, which is like, well, which way is the camera? And like, I would like the camera to be in the middle because I'm holding it horizontally and that's a better place for it. I don't know if they'll ever do this, but I hear you that placing it on that side would be great or or it's an ipad pro maybe two maybe two about that a second camera and the self i'll also say selfie camera should be better it should be better always make it better always you put this last one in i can't even address it you're just gonna have to talk about it yourself it's ridiculous and not gonna happen but i want to mention it because our friend friend of the show steve trout and smith tweeted uh last night this is what he said with mac os on arm a read-only system volume para virtualized graphics acceleration and hypervisor

framework on ios it definitely feels like a non-zero chance that mac os as an app could be offered on future ipads whether that makes sense strategically is another thing well it is another thing and it probably doesn't and i don't think it's going to happen but i just thought i'd throw it in the hat like yeah sure put it in the magic keyboard run mac os app and now your ipad is also a mac right it's not gonna happen so looking at new form factors for the Apple Silicon laptops, as well as new designs, which she's been talking about for quite a while, they would also feature mini LEDs. This seems to be something that's going to come to many products in Apple's lineup.

We're looking for the second half of 2021, and most likely, based on previous reports, this would be the MacBook Pro, the 16-inch getting a revision, reports this would be the macbook pro uh the 16 inch getting a revision as well as the long awaited 14 inch macbook pro to join it new designs factoring in new forms here um that's good that's good it's interesting i kind of expected them to maybe do a whole wave of unchanged models in the laptops but maybe not maybe this is their their way they you know they start with the lower end models and don't change those and then back in the background they've got bubbling their changes to the higher end macbook pro model so it would be the 13 inch 4 port would become a 14-inch. That makes sense.

And then a new 16-inch. Maybe these have better cameras and other stuff like that, too, that we've been waiting for that did not happen with this last round. New display would indicate that, too. Dare I throw in there that if you're going to do a new display and new cameras that maybe they could actually do Face ID on these? Wouldn't that be nice yeah i would love that um so that's great it's funny quo saying second half of 2021 if that's the case there are no like they have the intel macbook pros just kind of hanging out there being slower than the m1 ones for a year that's a little surprising and i wonder if there's a sort of a almost like a slip stream slip stream update that could come the first half of the year that is the existing models going to the apple Silicon. But again, what if Apple is staging this and they don't have the

higher end Apple Silicon chip for Macs this year, and that that cycle really is going to wait until next fall when there'll be an M2 and these will get the M2. That makes sense, right? Like Apple does not necessarily have the ability to roll out five different chip variations in six months. So it may be that the M1 is all we get for a little while. And again, that's not too disappointing because we know how fast the M1 is, but it could be that the M1 is the chip for this cycle. And the next cycle, we'll get an M2 that maybe will be broken into a couple of different versions. So it could happen, but it's going to be a weird, if that's the case, it's going to be a weird year where Apple's laptop configuration stays like it is now, where you've got the lower end systems

that are generally faster than the higher end systems, which are just sort of sitting there for people who want to buy an Intel laptop. Also, it's a year knowing Apple Silicon is in the market where you're trying to sell people on an Intel laptop. I can't imagine that they're going to sell well. No. I mean, and of course, none of these reports are talking about iMacs. So it might not be we get no Apple Silicon Macs in that period of time. The iMac may still pop up.

But yes, you're right about the laptops. I fully expect the iMac. And that could be even a redesigned iMac. But it could also just be an iMac with a an M1 especially if it's replacing the low end iMac and then they keep the high-end iMac for now the 5k iMac as Intel but redesign the other one it could use the same M1 processor absolutely could this episode is brought to you by hover one of the longest running sponsors here on the show when you have that one big idea where absolutely could. This episode is brought to you by Hover, one of the longest running sponsors here on the show.

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Hunter wants to know with Apple making their own chips do you think we could see a cheaper laptop from them in a few years maybe a MacBook SE priced around maybe $700 or $600 I'll refer you to the comments in an interview

that was Apple execs being interviewed about the M1 Macs. And somebody asked them this question and they said, you know, the obvious, honestly, if you've been paying attention to Apple, which is cheap, isn't their goal. And their goal is to make they make choices to make them better. I think that that's an accurate summation of Apple's decisions. Apple's goal is not to be the low-priced leader, and so they will build laptops with the functionality that they feel makes it a good laptop, and they don't build—their low end is a lot higher than most companies' low ends. They're not going to scrape the bottom. So I think it's possible that they might make a cheaper-than-$9.99 laptop, especially, I think, in this Tim Cook era, and you look at how fast the M1 MacBook Air is. Would it be unsurprising if the M1 MacBook Air that we have today kind of like stuck around and maybe went down to $899 or even $799?

I think that's possible. A brand new, designed to be low-cost, $599 Mac laptop, I don't think it's going to happen. It would be nice. It would be nice. Sure. I could imagine more what you said about, rather than you, like keeping something around.

That, I think, is a far more likely Tim Cook's Apple scenario, right? Is that eventually there's an M2 MacBook Air at $999, and the M1 MacBook Air stays in the price list and moves down to $799. And it's still, again, really fast, even if the M2 is faster. Yeah, that'd actually be really good, you know, thinking about that. Like, the M1 MacBook Air, they could keep that around for a long time and it'd still be competitive with comparable products in its class not necessarily against other macbooks right but

they could keep they could you know that could stick around for a long time and be a better product for people than a lot of what they might otherwise buy and they could keep pushing that price down that's how you could get it to like $599 or $699 in education at least because they knocked that $100 off. I think that's it. I think it won't go down to $599 or $699. I think it's more likely a, you know, yeah, $899 or even $799. But if you think about it in terms of iPhone marketing and the fact that they're so far

ahead with the M1 that they have space to give and still be superior to low-end laptops that they're competing with, that may be their long-term, like, how do we compete with Chromebooks and stuff with a Mac answer is we're going to have that low-end MacBook Air that is using the M1 and it's going to stick around. And in 2022, it's going to be $799 or $699 even though there will also be a faster MacBook Air higher up in the price list. It would not be too far off from their typical behavior at least on the iPhone side. So it's quite possible. So I've always found that to be a shame of them getting rid of the 11-inch MacBook Air

is they lost that lower price point. Because the MacBook Air used to be what? Was it $799? The 11-inch MacBook Air is they lost that lower price point. Because the MacBook Air used to be, what, $799? The 11-inch? I don't know. I don't know how low it got. $899? $799? I don't know.

Nevertheless, they still had a cheaper option when the 11-inch was around. And it's one of the things that's been a shame that they're removing it, other than the fact that the 11-inch MacBook Air is a wonderful computer. It was such a fun little thing. I loved that. I loved mine. But yeah, it made them lose a little bit on where they could take the price to. Brian says, my iPhone 12 Pro is on the way.

Should I set it up as new or restore from a backup? Restore from a backup. Restoring from a backup is great. Just do that. Don't put yourself through it. iOS backups is great. Just do that. Don't put yourself through it. iOS backups are great. I'm more inclined to set up Max as new and then transfer the data.

Like if I want to do that, like transfer my files via Migration Assistant or something. But for iPhones and iPads, just do the restore. I don't... Unless it's just a thing you like to do i can't think of a reason as to why you would choose to set up an ios device as new greg asks i'm considering switching my local photos library to icloud photos i've exported the originals to a different folder is there anything else I should consider

before turning on iCloud Photos maybe we can also offer this to Casey List too yeah well Greg's question is interesting because it's on a Mac right I assume yes I'm assuming yes I don't even know why you need to export the originals. I expect he's saying that I have a backup, I think is what he's saying there.

Yeah, I get it. So if you turn on iCloud Photos and you keep download originals to this Mac selected as an option, nothing happens to your photos. They don't go anywhere. Nothing happens. It's fine. If you choose Optimize Mac Storage, it will delete locally and not just in the cloud i recommend you do that my mac mini with the giant hard drive outboard has this feature turned on the keep keep all photos on my mac so that i've got a local copy of all my photos if apple's cloud exploded but um other than that you just turn it on and it just kind of works.

Like that's the nice thing about the Photos app is it just, it's built to sync with iCloud and it just does it. And if you've got the, if you keep them on, it won't even delete them

off your hard drive. It just leaves them there where they already are. All right. Next comes from Benjamin. Are you looking forward to Fitness Plus do you think it will come in 14.3

did see some stories over the weekend that the trainers are seemingly to be more active on their social media accounts seeming to indicate that something is coming soon I expect this is going to be a part of 14.3

there isn't really a lot of the year left for them to launch this yeah we're getting close so i think i think it has to be and i am looking forward to it i am an apple one subscriber so i get as of now i guess if you signed up on day one we are actually apple one subscribers now i think that was a month ago like as of today or yesterday so like the apple one thing has kicked in now if you signed up but yes i i'm also i tell you the thing i'm most excited about for this jason is their whole um i don't remember exactly what they called it but they're like beginners thing i'm really intrigued to see what that looks like it's kind of like the course of hey if you've not been very active with your exercise for a while give this a go i'm intrigued

to see what that that whole thing looks like to be honest yeah yeah i am too and i i'm you as somebody who my fitness right now is basically running and um i'm doing some physical therapy exercises that involve me like uh lifting a can beans, which is hilarious because I don't have any. I don't have any weights. So I lift a can of beans. It's great. It's enough. I'm that weak that a can of beans will defeat me every time.

I'm looking forward to this because it will give me some other fitness things to do. And yeah, that should be fun. And I'm already paying for it. So great. Bring it on. We'll report back. Both of us. fitness things to do and uh yeah that should be fun and i'm already paying for it so great bring it on we'll report back both of us and richard asks do you think apple had made the decision to transition to arm before their april 2017 mac roundtable event or basically do you think that this was part of that whole thing i got back and forth with john gruber about this on twitter which is why i put this in the notes today because i wanted to i need to talk about it with you

and i don't i honestly don't know and he was there but i've also read a transcript of what they said when he was there um i think let me put it this way i think apple had made the decision to transition to ARM when they called that meeting. Because I think there was a pivot point where Apple decided what they were going to do with the Mac that was going to be to evolve the Mac interface more, get iOS stuff to run on the Mac, move to ARM, all of those things, like really lean into the chip transition, build a new Mac Pro. I think all of those things I expected to happen.

That's why they called the meeting. I feel like that that was probably the moment where they decided to go in this new direction with the Mac. I don't think the sort of drifting that the Mac was doing before that, I don't believe it was because they had already decided to go to Apple Silicon and we're just waiting and being frustrated by Intel. I think, you know, and this is, I have no information, share some information. If you Apple insiders, if you know the truth, but my guess is that there was a real debate inside about whether

it was worth putting the effort in to build chips for the mac and migrate the mac and do everything that a chip transition would require versus the easy out which is just keep using intel will never be slower than intel PCs. It'll be familiar. Mac users will continue to use it, and it will just kind of go on being the Mac for as long as people want to buy Macs. And I think that that was their attitude for a while, that Intel was just going to be good enough

and that they didn't want to spend the energy on a chip transition. And then at some point, and I would love to know what that point was they said you know what that's not good enough we could do a better job here let's commit to the chip transition and i think all of these other things were kind of related to that commitment so if i had to guess i would say yes richard i do think they made the decision to transition to arm before the april 27 mac roundtable event how much before is the question six months a year a week i don't know but i think by that point they knew because that was why they made the recommitment to the mac

that's what i think yeah i don't believe that the same company that had the direction for where the Mac was at that point in 2016, 2017, is the same company who would have said, we're going to revolutionize this product line. I don't think that was the same company. Who was producing the Touch Bar, the Butterfly Keyboard

and the Trash Can Mac Pro and leaving stuff like and deciding that was the same company who decided they weren't going to have a Mac Pro anymore I don't think that's the same company that was like we're going to re-architect all of this and make current silicon

I just don't think it was the same company I was like we're gonna we're gonna re-architect all of this and make current silicon i just don't think it was the same company i i'm not saying that there weren't people inside of apple that wanted to do it or were tooling around of it but i think at the top their decision was what you were saying of like we're just going to keep this thing going it's not a legacy platform but we're just going to keep it going until it doesn't stick around anymore you know and then they clearly made, somebody was able to convince someone that this wasn't the right route to take, and then they changed course. But I would expect it was basically in between the iMac Pro being created

and them deciding that they were going to make the Mac Pro. They made a bunch of decisions that set them on the course that they were going down. They were clearly toying around with this stuff before, but I think that was the part where they decided to put all these plans in place. Because it just doesn't seem like it would have been the same company, right? Yeah, I have no doubt that they have been looking at Macs on Apple processors for a while as a due diligence kind of thing

and probably having their chip people say, hey, we could do better than Intel. hacks on Apple processors for a while as a, you know, due diligence kind of thing, and probably having their chip people say, hey, we could do better than Intel. We could do better. We could do better. We could do better. And finally, there came a moment where there was enough of a proof of concept or there were enough frustrations with Intel that they said, all right, let's do this. But I do think there was a switch that got flipped. again maybe it's a complex company a series of things that happened that led to that point where they said um this is what the future of the mac is going to be and it's going to require us to do all of this work in order to get there but it's worth doing that work rather than letting the mac just sort of kind of drift along with whatever intel is doing this year.

If you'd like to send in a question for us to answer on the show, you can just tweet with the hashtag AskUpgrade or just use the command question mark AskUpgrade in the RelayFM members Discord, which you get access to if you subscribe to Upgrade Plus. Go to GetUpgradePlus.com where you can sign up for just $5 a month or you can go to our website and you can sign up for an annual plan there as well. This will get you access to weekly episodes of Upgrade with additional content and no ads as well.

So you get more Upgrade and no ads for just $5 a month and you also help support us and the work that we do here, which is greatly appreciated. You can go to Getupgradeplus.com. Thank you so much if you've done that. And also to our sponsors for this week's episode, Hover, Pingdom, and SaneBox. You can find Jason online at sixcolors.com. And he is at Jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L on Twitter. I am at imyke, I-M-Y-K-E Jason also podcasts at The Incomparable and I'm trying to think of other things to say and also 20 Max of 2020

there listen to that it's a nice podcast on RelayFM you should check it out and I write essays about it so yeah do that and I've been twitch streaming a lot recently at Mike.Live if you want to check that out soothing assembly of keyboards thank you yes that is it in a nutshell really if you want to check that out. Soothing assembly of keyboards. Thank you. Yes, that's that is it in a nutshell, really.

If you want to check that out, you should. I've been trying to do one of those every week, so at least you can go check that out as well. We'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow. Goodbye, Mike Hurley.