Upgrade - 357: Collaborative Calculating

Episode Date: June 14, 2021

WWDC 2021 is over! This week we discuss a lot of the hidden details of Apple's announcements, and share our first reactions to using the first developer betas. (Jason isn't mad at Safari, just disappointed.)

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 357 today's show is brought to you by fitbod pingdom expressvpn and doordash my name is mike hurley and i'm joined by jason snow hi jason snow hello mike hurley how are you i'm good wwdc is done we did a review yeah we did we did it everybody did it we got through it we did it was a big week huge week i have a hashtag snell talk question it comes from a different jason who asks okay do you plan to buy a playdate and have you seen the great sandwich video that they made? I do. So Playdate is this game device from Panic, the makers of great software that are making a hardware device. They announced it a couple of years ago. It has a crank.

There was a prototype at WWDC when we were there in person. So that was a while ago now. And they announced that they're going to put it on sale in July for preorder. And yeah, of course, I'm going to buy one. It looks hilarious and great. And I think people have finally gotten it a little bit. I think it's sunk in. Like there's so many people in the vein of like gamers who look at something

like a piece of gaming hardware that's in like has a black and white screen and a weird input thing. And they're like, why would you buy this? It's so dumb. But it's like, no, it's almost like a modern retro game platform and the idea is like it's a super high quality clear high refresh rate black and white screen and it's this little yellow handheld it's a great piece of of hardware and then they're doing this thing where when you buy it, you get their first season of games auto-delivered, and it's like 20 games or something. 24.

And it has a crank. And they've seeded developer units, and people can write their own software for it. And it's such a fun idea that I absolutely want to support it, and I can't imagine that there won't be stuff on there that won't be great. there that will will be great and i like the idea also of somebody making a game device that is not you know it's not trying to be anything like it's an indie game hardware device right like from people who understand the software side yeah it's casual simple yeah yeah it's adorable so so yes i i did laugh when they announced that they had created an accessory for it because they announced this thing like several years ago now and haven't shipped it and there's they're announcing accessories for it which i find like i get it and yet on another

level i'm thinking to myself come on you should ship the product of course but uh there it is they made a there's like a bluetooth speaker charging whatever it looks super cool with a pen holder and a pen with a pen holder and a little yellow pen pre-order in july they're shipping them this year i am incredibly hyped for this thing i have been looking forward to it since they first announced it and it only appeals to me more and more as time goes on so i'm mega hyped about playdate. Yeah, it looks really adorable and fun. And again, if you just, I mean, it's not going to make you stop playing on PS5, right?

Or your iPhone. It's not. And it's not what it's for, but it looks like it's going to be a great piece of hardware and have a bunch of fun things on it. And like, that's fine. Like the world, I like the idea that the world is wide enough for see that was a reference for um xboxes and playstations and iphone games and playdate right i like that that and it is like all these things can exist and they're all game

consoles sort of but they're all different. And that's great. Good for that. Good for them. Love it. If you'd like to send in a question to help us open an episode of upgrade, just send out a tweet with the hashtag Snell talk or use question marks. No talk in the relay FM members.

Discord spatial audio is in Apple music. It started rolling out sometime after the keynote last week. And songs are being added and albums are being added and they continue to be slowly adding more and more content to the service in Spatial Audio, Dolby Atmos. What has your impression been so far? I mean, it's fun. I wrote a while ago about how I have a handful of 5.1 mix.

So multi-channel mix DVDs from the first time, or maybe not the first time from one of the more recent times that the, that the music industry has tried to push this technology where I can put it in a DVD player and listen to it on my home theater. And it sounds great because like the, the, all the sound is isolated. It's coming from all these different speakers it's really amazing and so i've been a believer in multi-channel audio as this high quality thing uh that is is for a sitting sitting down listening experience where

you're sort of in the middle of the music and you've got speakers all around you and uh i tried that with apple tv using spatial audio the dol, the Dolby Atmos stuff on Apple Music and when it works, it works well. I'm going to back up. Sometimes it doesn't work. Apple has some problems. This rollout is a mess. What I found is if you added a song to your library,

especially if it was added via iTunes Match, what happens is the version that you added is overlaid and the Dolby Atmos version is there underneath and it won't come out. It won't play. So anything that I already had in my library from a particular album that was in Apple's own Spatial Audio playlist, it wouldn't play it in spatial audio. It wouldn't play it in Dolby Atmos. I've had sometimes, not all the times, sometimes I've had an alert that's like, hey, you need to delete this

and then add it again. But that isn't always working. So there's two things going on here. There's the, is it a download? And if you download a stereo file and then they make it a spatial audio file it's going to play what's downloaded on your device so you have to remove it and that's not great but there is an alert for that but something else is happening here which is this other thing which is

it exists so i have weezer or like there's like counting crows first album there are two songs from that that are on apple's rock spatial playlist. And it's like, I bought that album. They're a band from Berkeley. I bought that album in grad school in Berkeley when it was a hit, like very memorable to me. So I have that CD. It got ripped. It got iTunes matched.

It's in my Apple Music Library. And those tracks don't play in Dolby Atmos. In Apple's own spatial audio playlist, they don't play in Dolby Atmos. And what I found spatial audio playlist, they don't play in Dolby Atmos. And what I found out is if I went to the Greatest Hits album, which I didn't buy, and I play those songs there, they're in Dolby Atmos. And this goes for lots of other albums that I own. Generally, it's things that I ripped on CD, although not entirely. And so it's just a bug, I think, in Apple Music, where Apple is not saying, okay, you've got that, but you're in this position to listen to spatial audio, so I'm going to get you the spatial audio, or I'm going to ask you, do you want to replace this track with a library track that includes the spatial audio?

It's a mess. For the stuff that I could play multi-channel on my Apple TV in my home theater, some of it is really good. And I think this is the truth about all this multi-channel audio. Some of it is really good, and I think some of it is either pointless or bad. And like some songs, and honestly, I think it's some songs, some styles of music really open up when you've got the background vocals coming from behind you and the instruments from the side and there's more isolation of the lead vocal in the front. Or if you're listening to like a symphony or you're listening to jazz where you've got this whole soundscape, there are some kinds of styles of music where the point is to just be kind of compressed and noisy. And Weezer is going to be the example I give. The first Weezer album, which I love dearly. I love those first couple of Weezer albums, but they are Sandy's grungy, compressed, rocky style. It is of an era. And it's loud and compressed.

And the multi-channel mixes of those Weezer songs, I think, sound terrible. Because it's like everything that that song was, like Buddy Holly, let's say, just gets diluted until there's nothing there. Because they spread it out. And it's like, when no the point is not to spread it out the point is to compress it into a big ball of noise so i guess i mean unsurprisingly i would say dolby atmos music can be good or bad just like thoughts can be good or bad or like literally anything could be good or bad, just like fonts can be good or bad, or like literally anything could be good or bad. And some of it is really good. And that was all in my multi-channel. The experience in AirPods, and I don't know, I assume you tested this as well. The experience in AirPods is different, right? Because it's only two speakers. They're on your ears. And so what it's doing

is it's taking the multi-channel mixes and it's mixing it down in a particular way with a set of effects to give you a spatial feel from those two speakers that are attached to your ears. And that's a very different kind of thing. Yep. And I think the same, for me, the same thing applies, which is some of it sounds really nice and some of it sounds kind of pointless. of pointless and i can't tell how much of that is because these are fancy remixed multi-channel kind of things being processed on the fly versus something that was stereo mixed years or decades ago or whether it's the magic of dolby atmos that i can't say but some stuff does sound better and some stuff doesn't i think i've had a better experience like my personal experience has been better i haven't found anything that I thought sounded bad.

I have only listened with AirPods Pro and AirPods Max. And what I have found is it either sounds really, really good or it just sounds like fine. But I will say though, personally, I really do like this feature a lot and I can't wait for more of my favorite music to get this stuff because it to me what it does is it either does nothing to the experience or significantly elevates the experience for the stuff that I've been listening to um so I'm I'm

really into it and I think the key really I think with a lot of it is, was this music intended to be recorded this way or not? And I think the better experiences I've had is with the more modern stuff. And so maybe that's going to be one of the key differentiators going forward, but I'm not sure. I think some of it, too, is what was the remix, purpose of the remix? is what was the what was the remix purpose of the remix so like when giles martin remixed all of those beatles albums um like abbey road and the white album like there was a multi-channel mix made purposefully and and so is it is the white album is abbey road recent it's not but the the multi-channel remaster was recent using all the original stuff. But that's such a rarity, right?

You do occasionally get this. The Abbey Road spatial audio is really good. Like come together sounds fantastic. And I mean, you've got literally the son of the producer of that record with all the might of the money of the Beatles putting this super high quality remaster together. That generally is not going to happen, but those examples are going to are going to sparkle and yeah i think the honestly people are talking about like lossless and and and i don't begrudge people who really are into lossless uh high quality audio like i i accept that there's some percentage small percentage of the population that for whom that will matter and that they can tell the difference but this multi-channel stuff, whether the spatial part of it is a gimmick or not,

and I think that it can be, but I think it also makes it sound better. I think that's the bigger issue is what you're doing is you're getting remixing with a sound field in mind and with multiple channels of audio that are then being processed by, in Apple's case, by Apple's own headphones to give you the best experience that they think that they can give you. I think all that effort means it probably sounds better. It's not necessarily any particular part of the technology that's causing the betterness there, but I think it's the care and the fact that there's more thought being given to the way that this stuff is being received, right? So I don't know. I mean, I think this is

a really complex topic and I don't think there's a way to say it's great or it's pointless. And I've seen lots of people say both of those things, but I do think that the net result is what you said, which is some stuff sounds really nice. And I think it also prompts a lot of us to stop and give more attentive listening to our music. And that's always nice when you aren't just... Most of my music listening is in the background while I'm working, and that's not attentive music listening. And it was delightful to sit... Lauren and I sat in our living room on our couch with our 5.1 audio system around us. And we sampled stuff from those Apple spatial playlists

and some of it was better than others of it. But like, there were some just fantastic moments in there. Listening to When Doves Cry by Prince, I felt like I was inside, I don't know, inside Prince's house somewhere, right? I was at Paisley Park. It was such a hilarious and delightful experience to have that song, which is a very weird sounding song to begin with. I love that song, but it's a very peculiar song, all around us. That was great. Tom Sawyer by Rush, which has all these, you know, all these synths and this drum solo that flies around the room. And it's like, oh, it's fun to listen to that stuff. And I enjoyed having a more active listening experience too. So, you know, I think it's good to have people maybe

appreciate the music more, but I think in the the long run i'm much more interested in how the spatial stuff uh works and what stuff i love maybe gets a remaster that makes it sound better as part of this but apple's also got a lot of bugs they gotta fix all right a couple of pieces of follow-up photos does indeed have a feature to ask for certain people places, or dates to be featured less often or not at all in the app and widgets. This is something that I was hoping for. And I still remain surprised that Apple didn't mention this during the keynote. I know it's more of a downer option potentially, but I think it's still an important one, especially because they really have added a lot of functionality here. So if you go into a memory or an image you can select feature less

in either in the options this can be long pressing or on the ipad you get the three little dots that you can click um and it will say like you know do you want what do you want to feature less of and you get a big option you know like i had this one one memory that I tried it on and it gave me like 10 people who I could choose to see less of because they were recognized in that album. Right. Right. They're giving you all the information that might represent it and letting you choose what is it about this that you don't want to see, right? Because you can't just fire off a like, show me less of this photo because there's so much in that photo. What is it about this photo that you don't want to see and then you get to say so that's it's a really it's good i'm glad they did that and it's actually uh david

and the discord's made a good point more of a downer than like the digital legacy stuff which is true because like when they're talking about iCloud like when you die right like so yeah i think they should have featured this honestly i think it's an important thing to show that we still have control over the machine uh rather than the machine just choosing to show whatever it wants to show so thank you to everybody that sent me in uh that and i've played around with it and it was really cool uh many people found that there were tags for m1x and m1x mac MacBook Pro in the metadata of the WWDC video that was uploaded to YouTube by Apple.

Are they trolling us? I don't know. My guess is that this is real and that somebody beforehand had been tasked with doing all the tags based on what the contents of the keynote were at some point and that nobody revisited it, right? Which'd say oh well how could that be apple is such a big company how many times have we seen apple make mistakes about the content and have

leaked things in advance do you remember the iphone 7 where they published a bunch of twitter ads that showed off the entire phone i think it was the seven before the event even began you know and remember when um when they they found parked i think this was gui rambo found parked at the exact same url pattern they'd used at the previous event image marketing images of the iphone yes days before yeah so this stuff happened this is my this is my point is that as big a company as Apple is, I mean, it's also a big company and that these things fall through the cracks and that it is absolutely likely that there was just an organizational thing where the people tasked to do the YouTube keywords, the, I don't know, SEO experts at Apple, whatever they are in

the marketing department were given a script and they crafted the the tags and maybe they put them in youtube or maybe they were in a top secret apple document and then stuff got pulled out of the keynote and that document didn't get updated i think that's the actually the easiest answer is not apple thought that they would make uh would have a laugh by mentioning products they're probably going to release and giving them names and putting them in the youtube thing to see if people notice like that's not very apple i don't think that that's the case at all it is more likely doing jokey tags yes these are not jokey tags like m1x macbook pro is not a joke tag that is a real you don't joke about that right it's also not a joke when the keynote doesn't include that product

yeah so i think the most likely scenario is uh and also the show was uh for those who care about the over and under like we do it was short of two hours right it could have been a full two hours and it wasn't and and i think that there's a moment where i think craig says something about like but more on that later or we got more later I thought, I think he's nodding to the fact that they're going to announce Max. And maybe he wasn't, but it felt to me like that could have had meaning that it ends up not having. So I think it's entirely possible that they,

most likely scenario is they were hoping to get pro laptops in the event. And due to production reasons, probably related to those legacy nodes, right? The stuff that Apple can't get enough of to put in their products that's going to cause reduced ability to fulfill demand,

which they talked about in their quarterly analyst call, right? This idea that it's going to hit the Mac and the iPad where there's like stuff that they can't buy that they don't control that's like in every product and they need one and they can't get it um and that meant that they were like look if we announce it now we can't we can't ship it in enough volume for whatever they and they probably have an ideal range right they probably say look when we announce something we need to open orders for it within two weeks three weeks whatever it is

and then it's got to ship within this window and if it can't ship within this window we should not announce it because people are going to forget about it and or we're not going to be able to fulfill and it's going to frustrate people because i think apple wants apple you know it's great to be sold out of a product but unlike uh the makers of consoles and stuff like apple wants to sell you sell everybody who wants the hot new thing from apple apple wants to sell it to them as quickly as possible and if they can't make enough they'll just wait so just as an overall i think there was a bit of a um a spectrum last week that we occupied of our positive negative feelings towards the keynote. I think in general, I was much more positive than you.

Now that the entire WWDC is over, have your positive negative feelings changed at all? During our podcast last week, my thoughts about the iPad became more positive. Right. cast last week my thoughts about the ipad became more positive right um i have some frustration about them still not doing enough to kind of embrace the power of the m1 um especially like the external screen support and stuff like that but i first off i i i really still do believe that what we saw with the multitasking changes was not a rearranging deck chairs kind of thing of like, let's try it again. And was much more of a rethink of how they handle windowing essentially on iPad with an eye toward what they're going to do next.

Right. It feels like step one of a longer process that will probably include putting things on external displays, especially since you've got that little three dot thing at the top that is not just a button you can tap to get those icons, but it's literally a draggable. It's a handle for those windows. And it's an active window indicator as well. Yeah. It's doing a draggable. It's a handle for those windows. And it's an active window indicator as well. Yeah. It's doing a lot of work.

Feels like that that would be a useful thing if you were in a multi-window state as well, right? To drag windows around and to send them places. Like, it feels very much to me like, I mean, okay, I want to believe, right? It is definitely a conspiracy part of this. But I really do believe that nothing they announced dissuaded me from the idea. And in fact, it persuaded me that this is where they're going, that they are thinking big about what they're going to do with iPad multitasking and windowing in the future.

But they need to get their house in order first. And what's disappointing to me is that they only took this first step and they didn't take the second step, but I feel like they're right on the precipice that they could literally hold this for a year or two, or they could announce like an external display and say, yeah, and it works with the iPad and look what we, and look what we did. You can run apps and windows on the iPad and release an an os update like i think they could do that as soon as they wanted to after this version of the os ships in the fall next spring whenever or they could just hold off another year or two which is frustrating um and then i wrote a piece for uh for six colors not for macworld although it felt like a macworld article kind of

after you know it was the right length. I could have submitted it to Macworld and they would have paid me, but I didn't do that. It was Monday night. And it was basically my overall warm feeling about the fact that this felt like the event where Apple finally put together what they've been trying to do for five years now, which is align all their platforms so that they don't announce features on the iPhone and they don't come to the Mac or they come half form to the Mac or they show up on the Mac two years later. But instead, they literally could have gone to the Mac section of the show had they not held some stuff back. They literally could have gotten to the Mac section and said, we already announced it all. It's all that stuff we already said.

It's also on the Mac. We already told you it was on the Mac. It's to the Mac section and said, we already announced it all. It's all that stuff we already said. It's also on the Mac. We already told you it was on the Mac. It's on the Mac. That's it. Stop saying Mac, right? Like that, it's all, remember, like, we always have things that are like, well, it's not here. It's not there.

It's not there. And this year it just felt like everything is everywhere. No, that was great. That was super encouraging that it really did feel like more than many years it has been now where apple will introduce a feature and we just naturally assume we'll wait for it somewhere else and i think you mentioned it in that piece like live text is a perfect example of it right live text live text i could imagine they said was just on the iphone right

you know because you know but it's iphone ipad and mac the facetime stuff right the facetime stuff yeah i absolutely apple of two three years ago the facetime stuff rolls out on its iphone ipad only right and i'm like no it's on the mac too it's it's everywhere because it's because they've got they they aligned all the subsystems that had drifted away over the years between macOS and iOS. They got all of them to work together. As part of the Apple Silicon transition, they had to do this part. They did the whole Catalyst thing. They got the Swift UI thing.

They have been building all of these tools in lockstep, not just for third-party developers, but for Apple. So that Apple doesn't have to build, when they announce an app or a feature of their operating system, they don't have to build it two or three times, right? That was what they had to do. I mean, from a user's perspective, it's like, hey, why are you not giving me this feature on the Mac? From Apple's perspective, it's like,

guys, I can't build this app three times, right? And now they don't have to. They build it one time and deploy it everywhere. Even shortcuts on the Mac, which seems like, well, it's finally come to the Mac. But if you look at it, it's a new version of shortcuts that's done in SwiftUI with some other stuff, other sprinkles. But, like, that new interface is also on the iPad and the iPhone. Like, it's across all their platforms because they're not going to have, like, well, the Mac version of shortcuts looks a little different. No, it's not different.

It's the same across. And that's good. That's good for Mac users and it's good for people who use the iPad and it's good for people who use both. So to me, that is the most positive thing. And that's why I think so positively about this. Also, I think that they didn't do anything that felt overreaching this year where it was like you know slow down guys like it's too much it's too much this we've had several years of very dramatic operating system announcements where it's where it's new chip architectures and you know whole new way of doing user interfaces and whole

new way of bringing your apps from one of our platforms to the other. And maybe it's COVID that's helping them kind of play within themselves. But I also find it encouraging that this doesn't seem like a release cycle where Apple is overshooting and is going to make everybody miserable by trying to do too much too soon. During these busy weeks, we do skip upstream mostly. And there is some stuff that I want to talk about probably next week, even some teasers that Apple have put out. But there was just one that I wanted to direct people to today, which was the teaser for The Morning Show season two. So they published this this morning it looks very

good it looks very dramatic um i was expecting more covid in it than what the teaser seemed to show like that was you know the reports where they were kind of going to add that in and maybe it's just not in here right like but it might be a part of the story in the way that the fires were a part of the story last time there's a shot shot of Jennifer Aniston in Times Square, and there's a 2020. Yeah, I saw that. And I'm unclear whether that's maybe New Year's Eve 2020, where they're going to start this thing and have it be pre-COVID,

or whether it's 2021 and she's in an empty Times Square and it's during COVID. I don't know. What struck me about it is, we talked about the morning show when it came out, that they thought it would be one show, and then it turned into something else, given current events. It turned into something else. And what struck me about this trailer or teaser is they're going with that, right?

Like, this season, I looked at it and I thought, this is not what they thought this show was going to be like at all. They, they have had the, uh, smart. I think they made the smart move of saying, well, wait a second. What story,

what is this show? What story should we tell about this show? And it seems like a way more dynamic kind of story that they want to tell than what all of us anticipated and what i think the show initially was conceived of being which was sort of trials and tribulations of people working on the set of a network news show and now it's more like people at a network news show have incredibly traumatic events happen to them that causes all of this drama in the in the business and in their personal lives and in the world.

And it's all kind of like caught up together. And that's a much more interesting show to me. So yeah, it looks interesting. September 17th is when it comes back, which is also sooner than I expected. I didn't think we were going to get it this year, but I'm looking forward to it. Apple's going to have a lot of stuff

for people to start finally paying for Apple TV+. That's true. I still don't know if I'm paying for it. You're too late. I have no idea. I don't know. This episode is brought to you by FitBod, the fitness app that provides a personalized exercise plan, a fitness plan that actually fits you.

When it comes to fitness, FitBod believes that everyone can be better. Whether you're working out three days a week or twice a day, FitBod's algorithm uses data and analytics to help you build on your previous workout so that your next workout is scientifically proven to be better than your last. strength training to you. Your workout program is tailored exactly to suit your needs, making it perfectly suited for your unique body, experience, environment, and goals. Look, it can be hard to know exactly how much you should be doing while you're exercising. So FitBod will take care of that for you so you don't have to worry about under or over training. And it's also going to mix up muscle groups and exercises and sets and reps and weight over time to help keep you on top form to help you work on the places that you should be and again not overwork in the places that you shouldn't. FitBod makes sure that you're on a path that's right for you while also helping you take steps towards becoming a better version of yourself.

If you're working out at home FitBud has a bunch of bodyweight only workouts. They're great for indoors or outdoors. If you have access to a gym or equipment, they have tons of options there too. Basically, whatever type of exercise you want to do, FitBud has got it. Whatever routine, whatever frequency, it's all there for you. And it's really easy to program all this stuff into the app and tell it what you're looking for. It'll make those recommendations. And then when you actually get to do the exercises, there's detailed descriptions and videos of personal trainers doing this stuff for you, like professional trainers, so you can see how it should be done. And I really value that just so I can make sure I'm doing the right thing.

FitBot is available on iOS and Android, and you can get started right now. Just go to fitbod.me slash upgrade and you'll get 25% off your membership. That's fitbod.me slash upgrade to try it out for free and get 25% off your FitBod membership. Our thanks to FitBod for their support of this show and RelayFM.

So, obviously the week after WWDC is a bit of a follow- up heavy episode what's happening? I don't know we have a lot of stuff just to go through and then we're going to talk bigger picture about some of the experiences

that we've had with some of the stuff that Apple's released so keep in mind that Upgrade last week for those who listened during the week as a podcast you know you listen whenever. We recorded it immediately following the keynote. Yeah. So, yeah, lots has happened since then, right?

It didn't really sink in, and we only knew what we had been told by Apple. And then we've had a whole week of sessions and all sorts of other stuff. So, it's good for us to revisit some of this because we couldn't. Also, it was a long podcast, but still, it's only a couple hours. There's a lot that we learned. Yeah, so much of this stuff came out days after anyway because it needs people to go through and find all these little details. So I wanted to bookend this with our previous discussion of talking about the operating systems coming together i think we can kind of see why because

there is a selection of mac os monterey features that are only available on apple silicon max so the following features are not available on intel max Portrait mode in FaceTime. So this is like the background blurring. Right. Live text. Mm-hmm. Interactive 3D globe in Apple Maps. I don't understand that one, honestly.

Text-to-speech in a variety of language and on-device and unlimited dictation. So I think a lot of these you can see require the neural engine. Yeah.

I don't understand why the 3D globe is in there, but honestly, that one is like one of these things is not like the other. My guess is engine yeah i don't understand why the 3d globe is in there but honestly like i don't they that one it's like one of these things is not like the other my my guess is that some of this stuff is well we could implement it on certain intel max and and they just were like forget it we're not gonna right like there's not enough here or or they're using some particular thing that's only

really available in apple silicon yeah i'm not quite sure what the story is, but this is going to happen. Like, this is nothing kind of major. But like, if you're on an Intel Mac, Apple is not developing for Intel Macs anymore. They'll keep their compatibility because they're good about that. But so much of the stuff, what I said before about how great it is that Apple can move its platforms in lockstep, part of that is that they've got the same chip platform now yeah and some of that stuff they're going to implement they're going to be like how do we implement this and they're going to implement it in a way that only really works with the attributes of apple's own processors and they're not going to make the

effort to do uh again remember what i said about we only want to write one app like if if you're like oh well on the mac for intel we're going to have to write this thing. Nope, we're not going to do that. Like that's just going to be how it is. But yeah, some of this stuff is neural engine, you know, based where they're using machine learning to do various effects. And I don't know about the 3D globe either. Like something about the implementation, they're like, no, no, no, no.

We're not going to even try to do this on Intel systems. Although although i did love there was a news report about this story that said um it was the mac rumor story it basically said uh it's unclear why this is the case since google earth shows a globe on the mac and i'm like well i don't think apple's saying that globes can only be done in apple silicon but it is a weird one though it is weird why why the globe i need to know if someone out there knows you don't have to you can send me this anonymously i just want to know what about this 3d globe needs apple silicon i don't understand are you gonna be a globe leaker now is that what i will be if i'm allowed to be i'm just i'm fascinated to know.

Because everything else, it seems so obvious, right? Makes more sense, right? It needs severe machine learning stuff. And I don't know. Maybe an interactive 3D globe needs that too. Who knows? We know for a fact. Stop lying to us, Apple.

We know for a fact that you can do a globe on the Mac in Intel. What are you hiding in the globe? Intel Mac shows globes. you hiding in the globe? What's in the globe? The time-picking wheels are back of iOS 15. So, prior to iOS 14, if you wanted to add a time to something, you'd get these huge wheels that you could spin around

like a slot machine or whatever. With iOS 14, they added this new method where the date picker was a large calendar, and then basically you would type in the time. There were these kind of hidden wheels. There is now a hybrid approach. So the date picker still exists.

So when you pick a date, it brings up that calendar and you pick the date. But the wheels, so like going back to those old spinny wheels, are the default, especially on iPhone. But you can tap the numbers to bring up a keypad. So you can spin them, but if you tap, it will bring up a keypad and you can type the time in. But on the iPad, this is really interesting. If you are using your finger and you tap the time, you get the wheel UI. If you are using the Magic Trackpad and you tap it, you just type. wheel ui if you're using the magic trackpad and you tap it you just type so it's being contextually aware of what you're doing and i think that's really cool um i stand by the fact

that i prefer the typing in and i'm happy that i still have that option but i know a lot of people missed the spinny wheels but i'm just happy that they aren't bringing those wheels back to places where they're not wanted, which would be on the Mac with Catalyst and on the iPad with a keyboard and mouse or keyboard and trackpad. So thumbs up for the contextual awareness there. Yeah, I love that. I love that idea. That's what Apple needs to do, right? With the iPad especially is what context are you in? are you using the pencil are you using your finger are you using a trackpad and adapt accordingly that's that's what they i know that sounds like a lot of hard work and it is a lot of hard work but it's also what apple

signed up for with the ipad yeah that's the purpose that's the whole point of the ipad the photos app now shows exif data and lets you change the date and time of a photo. So yeah, it does. What does EXIF data show you, Jason? Like, what is this? How is this beneficial to people? All of that information about like, what's the resolution of the image and what's its size and what format is it in? And like, what was the f-stop and what was the ISO and all this kind of information that's

been on the Mac version of photos for a long time. the ISO and all this kind of information that's been on the Mac version of photos for a long time. And that same panel now appears on the iPad and I guess iPhone versions of it. So you finally have access to that stuff on the other side. This is a case where, because it was originally iPhoto, the photos version on the Mac has always been more. I mean,

there are, there've been features that have been available on both and there have been features that have been on one or the other, but there were like way more power features on the Mac side. However, I will point out, you still can't add keywords on the iOS side, which I think

is kind of maddening. You can do a caption, but you can't actually like add keywords and stuff. So it's not 100% parity with the Mac side yet, but that info panel is way better. Jason, why would you need to add keywords? Surely machine learning will give you all you need. Well, I don't know, Mike. When I search for dogs on photos, I get cows and cats.

Come on. And dogs. I also get dogs, but I also get cows and cats. Photos also now will tell you which app you saved an image from. So if you saved an image from Safari or something, it will pop up and say this came from Safari. Smart. Useful to have. I imagine that's probably tied into the whole messages thing too, where photos from messages are going to drift into your photo library.

So it needs to tell you where they came from. I'm very dubious about that feature still. Yeah. Well, we're going to have to see how it works in practice. I don't think it's even wired up yet in the betas, but I don't know. It's early yet. On the iPad,

widgets do not show the name of the widget underneath them. This is unknown right now if it's a bug, where it's a bug or not, right? Like, is it a bug on the iPad that it doesn't show them? Is it a bug on the iPhone that it does? No idea. But as of right now, there are no titles of what a widget is underneath a widget. I know from underscore Widgetsmith that this is one of his very biggest feature requests, which obviously he can't deal with, is people want the widget name removed. They don't want to see it. So i think it would be good if apple doubled down and did this everywhere but

it's on we're gonna have to wait and see how this shakes out over the beta process potentially we could be seeing beta 2 of in the next couple of days sometimes they do it fast sometimes it's a couple of weeks because sometimes they lock that developer beta at some point before the event so they've got something to release on the day that they feel confident will not destroy everybody's data. And then meanwhile, in the background, they're working on whatever the next release is. And then they'll do a public release too.

So sometimes it's the second or maybe it's the third sometimes, but they'll do that too where then they'll eventually- They said July. Yeah, okay. For the public. But what they do, so maybe there's one or two and then they get one that they do

as a developer beta and it looks okay and then that one ends up becoming the public beta. I found, well we'll talk about it later, but I think the betas are pretty good already. I think that I have not had a horror show with any of the betas yet. There's time for really bad beta releases, but

the developer beta ones are okay. Passes in the wallet app are now automatically archived and stored in the archive. So you don't have to delete them or have a wallet full of old tickets and passes to things. I consider this a bit of a bummer because I deleted stuff I wished I wouldn't have had to delete. Yeah. Yeah. So they realized, like, I still have my ticket from the 2014 world

series game 5 in my wallet because it's a memory and it's great and they realize people do save stuff like that so so now there there already was some sort of an expiration thing there's a date range where it's active in an expiration date and you can put that metadata in wallet items and then by default it just doesn't if it's not something that is uh in the present or future it just hides it and you can tap to show that stuff at the bottom i've got my all my apple event invites in there too yeah i have stuff like old live shows that we've done i have tickets there you know things like that i really wished that i still had but i don't because it was getting too full or like you know the flight uh info from my honeymoon and stuff like that i wish i still had had, but I don't because it was getting too full. Or like, you know, the flight info from my honeymoon and stuff like that.

I wish I still had those things, but I don't because I got rid of them. Now you'll be able to, they'll still be available, but hidden away. Yeah. Spatialized stereo is a feature in Control Center under the volume,

which allows you to simulate spatial audio for non-dolby at most content i find this very weird and i've listened to some podcasts in with it on and it's very strange and i'm not really sure why this feature exists uh it is a thing so my receivers in my home theater have for a long time now had this feature which is like try to spatialize something that's only got to it processes the stereo and it tries to create a sound field and you know it can be done but it's it's weird it's it's it's weird so i don't hide everybody who's listening to us in virtual spatial audio. I'm over here. Now I'm over here.

No, I didn't move anywhere. You didn't go anywhere. The control center option for text size. So it's been in there for a while, like the dynamic type selector. Now lets you control the size of text for individual applications as well as the whole system. So if you have the calendar app open and you go to control center and you go to the text size, you can adjust and save a text size that is custom for that app, not just the whole system. This is fantastic because I give that exact example.

I have my text size down pretty low on my devices, which is fine for me in most apps. But if I open like Apple's calendar app, I can't read anything. So I was able to bump up the text size today on my ipad and it's much clearer so i think this is fantastic because dynamic type is awesome but some apps interpret dynamic type and it makes their type too small and now you can still use dynamic type and your users can change the size arbitrarily on their own i think it's fantastic. Love it. It's great.

Talking about text, the magnifying glass for text selection is back and it has a new design, which is interesting. It kind of looks more like a portal into like another dimension. It's very weird. Like I was in notes and I was selecting text

and the way it kind of shows up makes it look like the text is the line above it's kind of peculiar yeah i think they need to to refine that one a bit they're trying to get it out of the way of your finger so you can actually see it which is the whole point but i don't know it's a it's a nice idea i'm happy that they brought it back i think they realized that precision tapping with your finger to exactly what letter you want to put the cursor at is not a thing that you can do. An unreleased world timer watch face was shown in an Apple Watch session.

So there's a screenshot of it on Mac Rumors. Gotta love it. It actually looks very much like a watch that I own, like a world timer watch that I own. So I bring this up because we were talking about the fact that there weren't any watch faces well this is the thing maybe there will be but they're going to be in the new watches not in watchos yeah yeah that's it or they're going to at least announce them with the uh with the new apple watches i occasionally what they'll do is they'll announce a thing and it's there's this feature that's part of the new

hardware and then you discover oh everybody gets that it's like's this feature that's part of the new hardware and then you discover oh everybody gets that it's like they just wanted to make a big splash with it so it's not necessarily the case that these watch faces will only be available on whatever new apple watch comes out it may be but it may not be but they're definitely they seem to be holding stuff back watch faces don't really need to be better tested right they're apple's thing yeah they don't really need to be beta tested. Right? They're Apple's thing. Unless they do third-party watch faces. Which they're not. And the Dark Sky API will be living on for another year.

So they've extended the end of life of that, which is fantastic. It could mean a couple of things. It could mean nothing. It could mean that hopefully that WeatherKit API is still in the works. And also it could just mean they wanted more time to get the weather app for the iPad. Who knows? Yes.

Oh, boy. So, yes, this is exactly it, which is I'm not saying that Apple is doing like WeatherKit as a thing for third-party apps in order to. The idea here is that if Apple could just do its own weather app or Apple could say, we're going to give, we're going to do a safe weather API. That's got all this information. And if other apps want to adopt it, they can and show it in all sorts of different ways, but it's going to be from our providers and we're going to know the location and you know, we're not going to let you use a location checking to do creepy things, all that. If they were to do something like that, this is what they would do.

It doesn't mean they're going to do it, but if they were to do it, this is what they would do, extend it for this year. Because what they don't want to do is do a kind of yoink to the Dark Sky API and kill a bunch of apps if it's going to provide a replacement.

Because if it's then going to give a reason for those apps to exist in a year's time, that seems a bit mean. Why would you do that? But it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to provide a replacement. Because if it's then going to give a reason for those apps to exist in a year's time, right? That seems a bit mean. Why would you do that? But it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to do that. Although I would say this would be something that would be kind of in keeping with Apple's approach to this kind of stuff recently.

Like the whole idea is it's on their platforms. They've got all this data. I don't, I mean, the fact that the weather app doesn't exist on the ipad is actually a pretty good reason why do you know what happens if you tap the weather widget on the ipad i don't know it goes to weather.com of course it sounds like a joke that's what happens so uh anyway that would be a way that you could have apple would basically say if you want to build a weather app for uh for our platforms we can't wait to see what you'll do with it

um you can use this data that's like because again it's limited to their platforms and uh why not i'm happy because i use dark sky in uh carrot weather so i'm pleased i don't have to do the investigation into which service I want to use. You mean Apple Design Award winning Carrot Weather? Yeah, congratulations to that app, by the way. Carrot Weather by Brian Carrot Mueller. We said this before.

I mean, it's a multi-award winning, upgradey, award winning app. Yeah, the real, the award that really matters. The real one. You know, we said it then and I say it. It's genuinely, I think, one of the very best

iOS apps ever made, not just for certain things. It's not just the prettiest this year. I think it's just one of the best apps ever made. So I'm happy that Apple awarded it because it was deserved. Yeah, it's great.

This episode is brought to you by our friends over at Pingdom. If you have a website, what's it for? Whether it's driving people to your products, collecting sales leads for your company, or providing customer service with a contact form, if any of this stuff breaks, you could lose out on business. You could make customers unhappy.

This could be a bad experience for your users or potential customers. But there's a solution to this. Transaction monitoring from Pingdom. Starting at just $10 a month, transaction monitoring runs checks 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And it's going to alert you when cart checkout, forms, login pages, and so much more break

before it affects your customers or your business. Pingdom can notify you the moment there's a failure over SMS, email, or via your favorite apps, Slack, Ops Genie, PagerDuty. Depending on what's being monitored or the severity of the outage, you can also customize who's alerted and how they get that notification. Really powerful stuff. Don't let your users discover a problem with your website before you do. You want to be the first to know. And it's so easy to get started. Just go to pingdom.com slash relay fm and you will get a 30-day free trial with no credit card required then when you're ready to

buy use the code upgrade at checkout and you'll get a huge 30% off your first invoice that's pingdom.com slash relay fm and the code upgrade at checkout our thanks to pingdom from solar winds for their support of this show and relay fm Which betas have you installed so far? All the great betas, including WatchOS. Oh no. All but one. I'm not a maniac, Mike. Yeah, WatchOS is not great, right?

Like typically. I don't know what it's like this year, but in the past, WatchOS has been a bit tough. I use my Apple Watch. I use it all the time. I use my Apple Watch. I use it all the time. I use it to run. I use apps on it during my run. I just don't want to jeopardize that.

And you don't have a second one like you do because I'm assuming you've installed the Bayotas on secondary devices. Exactly. I've got it on my review iMac. I've got it on, I've got it on my review iMac. I've got it on an iPad pro and I've got it on a, an iPhone, but not my primaries. Although I will say that thus far, the experience has been pretty good. Like I mentioned earlier, it's been pretty good. I have these two iPad pros side by side and I have, I have one on one and one on the other. And I expected that I would be spending most of my time

on the non-beta iPad Pro, that I would get so frustrated with the beta iPad Pro that I would go to the non-beta iPad Pro. And thus far, 99% of the time I'm on the beta iPad Pro, and it's been fine. But I've been ready to bug out at any moment and I haven't had to. So that's encouraging. Yeah.

I only have the iPad OS beta on any of my devices right now because I'm not going to put it on my Macs because I use them all the time and I only have one iPhone. But I will say I have had a very similar experience to you. I put it on my larger iPad Pro, and I was thinking, you know, I'm going to sacrifice it for this because it's going to be terrible.

But not only has it been rock solid, I've had one crash and only one app that doesn't work. Not only all of that, the multitasking changes, I adore them. It's so much better to use, and it's so easy to get used to it. You know, I was talking with Gray about this. Cortex is coming out soon. But I did just check.

This multitasking system is six years old now. Split screen, slide over. Wow. And it's not changed much, right? It's the same things. You can put two apps side by side and you can slide in more from the side. Yep.

But this is finally, I think, the first version that actually makes logical sense as to how you use it. Like there is a logic to it that isn't I'm dragging app icons around all the time. This is why I say that I feel like it's step one of a larger picture is that it feels like they learned from the last few years and are like, okay, what did we do right?

What did we do wrong? Whereas five years ago when they did this, it was like, how do we get two apps on screen? Can we do that? And we've come a long way since then. And this feels much more considered. And it's taken them this long to make it usable with keyboard shortcuts. Yeah, I know. I know. Because the Magic Keyboard is not the first

iPad Pro keyboard, right? We had the smart keyboard before. What are the keyboard shortcuts to do multitasking? Do you know? Oh boy. Okay. Because Apple said that there are keyboard shortcuts, but I haven't found them. All right. So the way that you do it is it's under the globe key. So that's what you're looking for. The globe key is now a system modifier. So if you hold down the globe key on the iPad keyboard, you will see a secondary kind of menu bar system, which shows you these are the things that you can do. They're kind of like global shortcuts for the system.

And you can do everything. You can bring up Control Center, Notification Center. You can show and hide slide over there too. They've also created new versions of like the Go Home and stuff. So you can press Command H or Globe H to go home now. And the way that you do the split screen with the keyboard is so you have two apps open, so you want to swap the right-hand application, right?

I think it's off the top of my head. It's Globe, Shift, and the right arrow key. And then it slides the app away. And then you can bring up one or you can search. You can use Spotlight then and whatever app you select will just open on the one on the right. But also you can now also just press tab and then it selects the home screen.

So you can use the arrow keys to select something on your home screen as well because they've added that home screen control with the keyboard. So they have finally made this available. And this is something that I've wanted since this became a thing in the first place. So you can now fully control what's happening with the keyboard. And you can do stuff like, I think, Globe F makes an app full screen, all that kind of stuff.

So there's like a whole new selection of keyboard shortcuts that live underneath that Globe key. Under the Globe. And the Globe is now on Mac keyboards too. So Apple seems to have decided, because it's basically the function key, but they decided to redefine it as this Globe key

and it's everywhere. So now you have yet another keyboard shortcut kickoff key modifier, which is the globe. To go with command, option, and control, now we also have globe. It's a lot of keys. Yeah, and there's still stuff to learn. There's still things I haven't gotten used to yet,

but some of the basic ones I have started to get used to. Like you can even cycle through your slide over windows and stuff like that it really there's really a lot of power there and if you use a hardware keyboard an external keyboard you can remap another key to be globe so with mine like when i've used i use an external keyboard i remap the caps lock key to be the globe key because makes sense i don't need the caps lock key ever so you can you know so that's all nice and easy to do as well this system has just

immediately made so much more sense for me I really love it and just little things like the fact that you can create and split apps in the multitasking view little things like that which I don't need it that often but I want to do it every now and then. And I can do that now. But then also moving on again, like talking about shortcuts, you can now control multitasking with shortcuts. So you can open apps in a pair, right? Which you couldn't do before. So they finally, for me, added all the features

I wanted for iPad multitaskingasking it's only taken them it's five years to do it yeah i love it i really really love it and it you know and again like it is that like looking to the sky i want to believe it does feel like a more logical let's start again from here thing right yep yep it does i mean that that little three dot thing that you can grab and move around all right like that's a window title bar essentially on the mac it's the equivalent of that you grab something and you drag it around okay i know that everything is just tiled right now but like that is a grabber to move a window around yeah and uh when you click on it you get a few options there is nothing stopping them from putting more options on that grid could become six

on nine right like and no problem and it's essentially a version of the uh uh red yellow green uh traffic lights on the mac it's effectively the green button right like it changes the size and shape of the window yeah and it's well i mean if you think about on the mac what it's doing is it's saying full size um uh hot minimize or close right and on on the ipad what it's doing is different but it's similar right it's similar also similar. Also, by the way, SF Symbols, the icons that Apple makes available to all, you know, anyone on its platforms to use for their interface design. SF Symbols has a whole selection of windowing-based shapes. Oh, really? I'm not saying that that is meaningful, but I am really suspicious because those three shapes are in there

along with lots of others. And maybe they're just helping Mac developers with windowing. Let's just say it, Jason. Let's just start the mid-cycle iOS 15 countdown. Like Magic Keyboard, they're going to add full screen support. I think if they wanted to do something with hardware,

like perhaps introduce an external display, that it would be a good time for them to flip the switch on that and that they don't necessarily have to wait for iPadOS 16 to do it. We'll see. Can you tell me about shortcuts for the Mac? Yeah, so shortcuts, actually,

when we're talking about betas and how we feel about them, shortcuts is not super stable right now on any platform. On iPad, it's... But look, it is because they have redesigned it. Like, you know, we haven't really focused a bunch on that because it's got so much other stuff going on, but it is brand new, effectively.

It feels like a ground-up redesign. Yeah, they really have rewritten the interface and they've made it even more compact. They've added a lot of nice stuff to it. In general, I think that there's some good additions to shortcuts, including the fact that they built in, they looked at all the things that the automator could do, which quite honestly, there aren't that many things that automator could do, but it looked at them and it basically, they built those in as well across all the platforms

where applicable. So that's great. I have an Automator action that does the incomparable voice announcer at the beginning of every episode of my podcast, The Incomparable.

There's a robot voice. It's Plain Talk Fred who says the name, the number of the episode. The incomparable. That's a robot voice. It's Plain Talk Fred who says the name, the number of the episode. The Incomparable. That's my- Yeah. Episode 203, July 2019.

That kind of thing, right? Can't do it on iOS. Can't do it. Guess what? You can do it now. You can do that on iOS. On iOS, you don't- Because you can do a speak.

You can do a generate text with Because you can do a speak. You can do a generate text with a voice and then follow it with a save file. There's a bug. Plain Talk Fred gets over-modulated and sounds terrible, and I already filed a feedback about that. You're the only person. Other voices work fine, though. Of course they do. Other voices work fine. Because that one's like a million years old.

It's a million years old, yeah, but it's the best. That's why it's the best. Have the other voices been in Radiohead's legendary album, OK Computer? I don't think so. So they've done all of that stuff to add these capabilities that the iPad and iPhone couldn't do before. But then on the Mac side, like,

it's all, it's not all there yet, but it's all coming together to have the ability. It's literally everything that I wanted and more because they are completely embracing, despite the narrative that everybody has, which is like, oh, just wait. Apple's going to lock everything down and they're going to control everything

and you're not going to be able to do anything on the Mac anymore. And Apple's insisted that that's not the case and they have walked the walk. So can you do a Perl script? Can you do a Python script? Can you run a shell script from shortcuts on the Mac? Yes, you can. You can do all those things. Can you run an Apple script from shortcuts on the Mac? Absolutely you can. It's all in there. Now, in the long run, I do think that there's a question, because this is the future of automation on the Mac, they said, right? Across all of Apple's platforms as shortcuts.

I don't know what the future of scripting is on the Mac. Like, there is a real question about, like, does AppleScript continue? Or is there something that is a substitute for Apple script? Because Apple script has some detailed levels of control that you could probably do with shortcuts and tense, but would require a lot of complexity. And I wonder about, but it's a multi-year thing. Exactly right.

So in the meantime though, like I, first thing I did on the Mac with shortcuts was I built a shortcut that runs a, what is it? It's an Apple script that runs a shortcut that runs a Perl script. And you're saying to yourself, why? Well, the answer is to test it out, to test it out. And I got it to work. I absolutely did. Well, because I was in BBEdit and I'm it out. And I got it to work. I absolutely did. Well, because I was in BBEdit and I'm like, how do I get this thing to just take the entire

text of this document and run it through this Perl script? And right now in BBEdit, you have to have an Apple script that tells the shortcut, like here's the contents and hands it to it. Otherwise, you have to select all the text and choose it from the services menu, which you can do without AppleScript being involved. But the point is not that this is this ridiculous Rube Goldberg kind of device. The point is that you want to go from AppleScript to shortcuts. Yep. You want to go from command line to shortcuts. Yep. You want to go from shortcuts to AppleScript. Yep. Shortcuts to Perl. Yeah. Shortcuts to Python. Yeah. Like all of it. Any combination of those things, shortcuts, even in developer beta one is already sitting

in the mix there. And that's good because that means that people can start working with it. And then over the long run, it will become more and more prominent. And that's going to take the participation of Mac developers and the developers of other apps that are on the Mac. Mac developers and the developers of other apps that are on the Mac. But again, the beauty of Apple's whole kind of strategy here is if you've got an iPad or iPhone app that does some very clever things, you can bring that over to the Mac and all your shortcut stuff comes with it. And now you're on all of Apple's platforms. And if I'm a Mac user who wants to use this piece from a traditional Mac app, but also this piece from an iPad app, now I can do it because I can write a shortcut that connects them all.

And if the Mac app only supports AppleScript, guess what? I can still do it because I can use AppleScript for that and I can use shortcuts for this and I can put it all together and it will actually work. So, yeah, it's exciting. Also, I'll just mention, because I know user automation isn't for everybody, that let's not forget, shortcuts is the best tool ever on the Mac in making user automation understandable for regular users. I'm not saying it's easy. It is a complicated app. But I am saying I think it's the best one I've ever seen. And it kind of fulfills the promise of Automator, which, you know, was 15 years ago, to allow you to kind of use some building blocks to let your device do something that you wanted to do

that it wasn't written explicitly to do. I've been able to do way more with shortcuts than i ever was able to do with automata like i don't know what it was but they're just it comes to a point of automata and i just don't understand what's going on anymore but shortcuts isn't like that i have some pretty complicated for my you know for me anyway shortcuts that do lots of really cool things because it's easy for me to understand yeah i just did a thing the other day um because i realized that we were out for a walk and i was curious about what the temperature was and i'm like well i only have my apple watch i can't look at my web page of

my weather station or my widget for my weather station i only have my apple watch and i thought oh i should do a shortcut for this like i went home and i was like boop boop boop boop and now i have a shortcut that i can actually ask my Apple Watch via Siri what the temperature is right now at my house. And it will tell me the temperature and whether it's getting warmer or colder and what the high is. And it's just all, it's pretty straightforward shortcut. Oh, I should mention one of the things they did, and I haven't been able to 100% get this to work yet, but I think that it's going to work as the betas progress, is the idea that you won't necessarily need to have one shortcut for Mac and one shortcut for iPad that do the same thing. And there are workarounds where you could write like

a subroutine as a separate shortcut and two set, you know, your Mac shortcut and your iPad shortcut could both call it, you know, run that shortcut. You shouldn't have to do any of that because there's a, there's a thing in shortcuts that is a device name. So you can basically say, if this is a Mac, do this, if it's an iPad, do this. And that means that you can have one shortcut that you run and all these shortcuts sync across all the devices. I was able to take my shortcut for posting things to six colors that I wrote for the iPad and run it in BB edit on a Mac on day one without a single change, right? Like I just checked the box for make this a service on the Mac. And then I selected my text and chose my shortcut from the services menu. Very nice.

And it ran and it did it like untouched. So building shortcuts, they sync across iCloud. You can run them everywhere. And although I'm excited about the idea that they like brought automator compatibility and all of that, the truth is most of my automations on the Mac have shortcuts equivalents already. So once those are on the Mac, I'll just use those. I'll just use the shortcuts I built on iOS. They were easier to build and I think they're more robust. So, so yeah, I'm very excited. It's a, it's a great, you know, automation on the Mac very rarely gets any time in the sun. Shortcuts has gotten some time in the sun the last few years for automation on iOS, but very rarely does Mac automation, really not since Sal Segoian came on stage, introduced

by Steve Jobs, to launch Automator. That was sort of the last time that Mac automation really got a lot of time in the sun. So it's good to see. It's a good time. Pixelmator Pro is going to be getting shortcut support. The Pixelmator team announced it today. Just saying it's going to be first class, second to none support. And they included a screenshot, which is get images, resize to this size using ML super resolution.

And save. And save. And save. But that amount of power, because ML super resolution is an incredible feature of Pixelmator Pro using machine learning to upscale low resolution images. And some of the results can be quite astounding. To be able to have that power just into shortcuts,

like to take like 20 images and just batch process them like that oh boy uh it's a couple of things that i wanted to say that stuff i haven't really got to try out yet that i'm intrigued about and i wonder if you've had any time with them one is all the share play stuff yeah i haven't used share play yet i i anticipate that in the next few weeks a bunch of us are going to be... We're all going to be doing watching movies and making calls. Watching movies and making calls with each other. I'm curious about what the other applications of this are too and what level of control is afforded.

I haven't watched any SharePlay sessions yet, but what level is afforded to developers? Well, one of the things that kept going around last week because it was in one of the sessions, is using the APIs and stuff from SharePlay to build collaborative whiteboard applications. It's not all about, let's watch a video together. There is more stuff that you can do with it.

Right, it's a whole shared experience layer there. Yeah. I don't know how much that'll get used and all that, but depending on the right app and the right developer and the right set of users, it could get really interesting where Apple is not just about SharePlay. SharePlay isn't just watching Ted Lasso together, right? SharePlay is potentially if you and your colleagues have an iOS app, you can collaborate inside it just using this. That's it.

It's your collaboration tool. Someone could maybe use this to build something like Google Docs. I don't know. Possibly. I know that, I'm sure our friend James Thompson will consider. Collaborative calculating. And I'm serious about this. Well, collaborative calculating, right?

Like everybody gets to enter in a number. We'll see where this goes, right? Oh no, he pressed plus. What happens next? So, but I was thinking about dice by pCalc. And like, if you're playing a Dungeons and Dragons game or something like, or anything that involves dice, imagine a shared dice tray where everybody rolls

and it goes in the same and everybody can see the same dice tray and all that i don't know whether that's practical or not whether it's possible with these apis or not but like that's really interesting the idea that it's not just i'm gonna watch a movie with you but that i could use sort of any number of app with people that i know that's uh i like it it's a fun idea a lot of potential there also quick note is one that i haven't really got my head around yet. I feel like I need a lot more time with this. One of the things that I was quite surprised about with Quick Note

is the notes are saved in a separate folder in the Notes app called Quick Note, which is not really what I want to do. You can move them. So once you've started your Quick Note, you can then move it and make it like a real note. But I was playing around with it quite i thought something was quite cool that like if you're on a web page you get a button that you can press to add a link and just fly around web page to web page to web page and keep adding links that's kind of stuff cool but i still need to get my head around it it's like a reverse of the share button right it's like pre-shared it's

it's it's just everywhere you go it's going to, do you want to take this from what you're doing? Which I like that as an idea. I think it's interesting on the Mac, you can have all sorts of assistive apps that do that. On iOS, obviously, you can't. And so platform owner doing something like this, it's like, it's good because who else is going to do it? I haven't used this yet. I don't know if it's in the iPad beta, but if it is, it seems like it's only like you can only bring it up with a pencil, which is like. Or Globe Q.

Or Globe Q. Okay, great. My point there is that sometimes I'm, a lot of times I do a lot of reading in bed in the morning with my tea and my breakfast, and I'm sitting there reading a lot of stuff. And I would love to sort of swipe from somewhere and get a quick note and add a note in about something. And at least for now, I'm not doing that. So yes, Globe Q, okay, maybe I'll do that. But it's a, I want to see this more. It's an interesting idea. Also, not to get back to my conspiracy theory, Mike, about windowing. And I know I said this last week too, but I'm just going to say it again. Look at that Quick Note window on iPad.

Look at it. It is a floating window. It is a window that floats over other items. What could it mean? Windowing is here. It's already here, people. Follow the money. It's already here.

Sorry, I lapsed into conspiracy theory there. But it's very hard not to look at QuickNote and say, well, clearly Apple's already building multi-window things on iPad. Because guess what? Sometimes having a window floating on top of other windows is useful. So maybe we should do that. Maybe we should have more of that. This episode is brought to you in part by our friends over at DoorDash. Did you forget that one thing at the store? Well, now you can get snacks, drinks, and household essentials in 30 minutes with DoorDash. You all know DoorDash. It's about connecting you with the restaurants that you love right now and right to

your door, but you can also get those grocery essentials that you need too. Ordering is super easy no matter what it is you want to order. You just open the DoorDash app, choose what you want from where you want, and your items will be left safely outside your door with their contactless delivery drop-off setting. DoorDash has partnered with over 300,000 restaurants in the US, Puerto Rico, Canada, and Australia so you can support your neighborhood go-tos and your favorite national chains as well. Jason, can you tell me a little bit about your experiences with DoorDash? Well, my daughter who just got home from college, last summer she drove for DoorDash? Well, my daughter, who just got home from college, last summer she drove for DoorDash, which was really great.

And that was sort of what opened the door. Dash. Door, Dash, for us. But there is, especially if you don't want to go out into the world, which sometimes you don't want to. Sometimes you can't. Sometimes you don't want to. You can order food and it's brought to you. But like I said, and I'm going to just repeat it again, don't order hungry.

Order it in advance. Order it. Agree on what your dinner plan is going to be with the people you live with and do it early and then just set it to come at the time that you want it to come. And it's magical and you don't have to wait. And you're not ordering hungry where you're like, oh, why do we order all these spring rolls? And you're like, oh, well, it's because I was really hungry when I ordered. And regrets. So don't do that. Instead, imagine a service where you could just, the food shows up at your door at the moment that you asked for it. It just takes a little planning and DoorDash will help you do it. time listeners of this show can get 25% off and zero delivery fees on their first order of $15 or more when you download the DoorDash app and enter the code upgrade 2021 if you're in the US and upgrade a US if you're in Australia. That's 25% off up to $10 value and zero delivery fees on your first order. When you download the DoorDash app in the App Store, enter the code UPGRADE2021 for the US and UPGRADEAUS if you're in Australia.

That's UPGRADE2021 for the US, UPGRADEAUS for Australia for 25% off your first order with DoorDash. Subject to change, terms apply. A thanks to DoorDash for their support of this show and RelayFM. Let's talk about Safari. Do we have to? Yeah. i want to talk about safari

we do feels like this is the most uh controversial thing that announced at wwdc and i guess and i think it's maybe been exacerbated potentially by people when they started using it. How much have you used Safari and on which platforms? I have used Safari a lot on the iPad, a little bit on the iPhone, and a little bit more than that on the Mac. Mostly on the iPad. Okay. How do you feel about the Safari design?

I feel like Apple... This is the one area where Apple probably overextended itself. I'm going to predict that I think that this is an area where what they ship in the fall is not going to be what we saw in the videos last week. And that they're going to get a lot of feedback that's going to make them have to adjust what they're doing which wouldn't be the first times for safari right they've had this exact thing before with tabs exactly and i think and not the first time in a beta cycle that there hasn't been something you know it doesn't always happen sometimes we have that where everybody says oh well this will obviously change and it doesn't but this feels to me like like apple is going to has already gotten really an earful about this um personally i i you know i think accidental tech podcast talked about this

for approximately four hours in their last episode so i would commend that to everybody. But I agree with a lot of what they said. Like I'm resistant to ripping on something that is trying to do something different as a knee-jerk reaction because everything that's different, you're going to have resistance to because you're used to it the way it was. But I am still kind of mystified

by some of the prioritization that Apple has made with Safari. Collapsing. Yeah, maybe I don't use tool or toolbars, tabs like everybody else. Maybe I don't. everybody else. Maybe I don't. But like, for me, my usual tab state is a few tabs and I navigate them by being able to read what they are. And Safari, the new Safari seems to want to insert everyone in a state where you have perpetually too many tabs open, even if you only have a few. perpetually too many tabs open even if you only have a few and therefore you can't see what the page is that you have open until you click on it or tap on it other than by by identifying it by like the favicon and the first few letters of the first word of the page design is I, I can't tell what tabs are open by looking

anymore because even on my iPad and I have a 12.9 inch iPad and I don't have that many tabs open, but because it has to fit all the other user interface elements in there, including the big URL slash search bar, like I can't tell what the other tabs are anymore, especially if they're from the same website, then I really can't tell because the favicon is the same and I'm trying to decode things from the first few letters. So I think it's a mistake to cram it all together. And I don't understand, like, I get what they're trying to do which is the whole interface theme of ios 15 is get things out of your way get chrome out of your way there's a lot less chrome everywhere i think it's commendable to push that but to cram everything into that

single bar and they've been headed for this point right they did this in the finder a couple years ago where they crammed everything uh into one row that used to be in multiple rows um but like legibility of tabs especially when you like i get that some people have a thousand tabs open and they can't read their tabs and and all that but like i've never been one of those people and even then even if you've got a thousand tabs open you need some way to navigate them where you can identify them on site and it just doesn't it doesn't provide that. So the benefit you get with having your window be slightly less tall, which I get, they have widescreen displays on, on their devices. So tallness is the direction where you want to save space. I get it. That's why my doc's on the right actually um but i think this is misguided and i think that either they need to rethink the metrics and they need to make those those tabs wider and see if that

works because they're way too narrow now or they need to perhaps give people the option of having it be on two lines instead of one uh because uh it just like, I don't know what to say. Safari, that one interface change has made using Safari on my iPad terrible because I relied on knowing where my tabs were and now I don't. And the tab group feature is good. Like I like the idea of the tab group feature.

I don't, some people will use it more than other people, but the idea that you're sort of like creating these permanent iCloud synced tab groups that go from device to device, I like that as an idea. I think that that's got a lot of potential, but all you're doing is asking people to have more sets of tabs that they need to identify.

And then when you switch to them, you can't identify them. It's just, and then, I mean, don't get me started about the iPhone. Because I actually, I like the idea that they brought a lot of the, like the bar down to the bottom. And essentially it is the URL bar, but it's also the tab bar. And you can swipe around like you're doing multitasking. I think that's really good. I think it's a good idea, but the way they implemented it is so strange. It requires web developers to change their sites because the URL bar floats over content

on web pages and covers it. So you can't see it. So you have to change your CSS for Apple because Apple's decided to do this thing in order to change where you draw content on your pages, which also lots of sites won't do that and it'll just be frustrating for iPhone users. But the part that gets me is, I get that you want on big phones, you want to be able to put the content

in an area that is reachable. I think that's commendable. And I think switching between tabs on the iPhone specifically was not great. And now you can swipe. I think that's awesome. However, then you tap on the address field and the keyboard slides up. And the thing you tapped just moved it's it's not under your finger anymore you're like whoa where did it go and yeah it's just up a little bit higher and then you can

reorient and you can find it again but like i don't like that interaction at all right playing hide and seek with a with text entry and with the thing that you're focused on is like, again, I get why there's stuff down there, but I feel like the, probably the solution here was to put the URL bar up at the top and have a tab with the title and the fav icon down at the bottom and do it that way. But that's not what they did. And it's just, I don't know.

I, I'm sure that this whole design on all these platforms got a lot of thought from a lot of smart people. The Safari sessions at WWDC are really good. I wonder if maybe their web design people don't like it, but that's what we're doing. So they're going to talk about it. They seem super smart and really good at what they do. They seem super smart and really good at what they do. But this design, I know it must have been well thought out, but it doesn't feel well thought out.

It feels like a big mistake. I have only tried it out on my iPad. And my main issue with the design is not the tab stuff as such. I think I could get used to that. I don't like how many controls have been hidden behind that little three dot button. You know, like to share something, you don't have to tap that and then press the share button. Then you're given the share sheet. I think that's a little too many taps just to send a link to somebody. What I will say is obviously these,

a lot of these changes have been done to bring tab groups. I really like tab groups as an idea. And it works for me with the way that I browse the web because I have on all my devices, like seven pinned tabs and therefore when I'm recording shows or they're like thing you know like general admin stuff or whatever yeah my various things and just putting them all in one tab group that's really great and then I can just you know when I when I'm recording when I would eventually be on Safari on my Mac

I would just move to my like recording tab group and it's there with Google Docs open and everything and fantastic. And I really like that. And I love that it syncs. That's so great that it syncs. And if you do your research in a tab group, you can also drag the tab group out and all the links come. All of that's fantastic. I love it. I love the idea of tab groups. I think it's really smart. Hopefully they can tidy some of the UI stuff up and leave this feature intact. I think it's really smart. I just, you know, like, hopefully they can tidy some of the UI stuff up and leave this feature intact. I think this is the challenge is that Apple has decided that what people want is browser Chrome to be gone as much as possible. And I, again, I applaud the idea of getting the Chrome out of your way and letting the content shine because you're there for the content. The problem is I'm there for all the content

and I don't, I'm not a single page browser. And I think the whole point of having the tab system is that tabs are important and people use tabs, right? Like the whole thing with tab groups is tabs are important. And yet, because they also have this imperative to get the Chrome out of the way, they've created a great new tab system and made tabs less legible. In some cases, a lot less legible. I think they could tweak it. And to your point, sharing too. There is a lot less legible i think they could tweak it um and and to your point sharing too there is a bunch of stuff under that menu that didn't used to be you know or was you know it was a tap away and it's still a tap away but you're right there's like another level beyond that yeah that is is unfortunate um i just i these two competing things, it just frustrates me.

It's like, I get it, but you went too far. And your design imperative here is actually undercutting your feature imperative, which is that people love tabs. Like people love tabs. So we've given them all these features about tabs that they can't see because the tabs are too small and they're illegible i had an issue where i had like eight tabs open or whatever on my ipad and i couldn't open the tabs with the trackpad because it would keep closing them so when i would go up with the the cursor to the tab the tabs were so small that all it would do was select the X. Which was interesting.

It's not great. And again, it's a beta, but I think that there are larger fundamental conceptual issues here that they have to address. And that's why I say, I feel like there will be changes. I don't know if the changes

will satisfy anybody, but I feel like there will probably be changes in the beta. It needs to be better. It needs to be more flexible. It needs to meet the needs of the users of the beta. It needs to be better. It needs to be more flexible. It needs to meet the needs of the users of the features. And right now, again, the colored background thing, I actually think is really cool. The idea that we're going to take the Chrome and we're going to kind of hide

it away and make it part of the webpage as much as we can.'s like it's a decent i think that's admirable i think that that's a perfectly nice thing to do i i don't i don't have a problem with most of what's in here but i don't understand their imperative to smash every little bit of interface they've got to get like on my ipad i have a 12.9 inch screen on. On my iMac, I have a 27-inch screen. I don't want to save those pixels. I don't want to save those pixels. I want to use them to see my tabs, right? And the current Safari design basically says,

we don't care what you want, and we don't care what size your screen is. The important thing is not tab legibility or the availability of toolbar buttons or anything else. The point is to hide it all in as small a space as we can. And that's stupid. It's stupid. It's a bad call. And whoever made that decision at Apple needs to be pushed back on by everybody else at Apple who has a say in this because they screwed it up. It's a misfire. It's an own goal. Let's zero 2020. It's an own goal. It doesn't have to be this way. I think the imperative here and the idea here is good, but not giving users choice and making the decision that access to the share button and access to the first word or two of a tab is less important than

an extra line on the webpage. It's just a misfire. So I hope they change it. So what I'm saying is, I like a lot of what they did with Safari. And then there's a very small part of it that I think is a complete disaster. So I hope they fix it. This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by ExpressVPN. There are tons of VPN providers out there. But there's a reason why I use ExpressVPN. There's a reason why they're a sponsor on the show. They're really good. ExpressVPN doesn't lug your online activity. Lots of cheap or free VPNs can make money

by selling your data to advertisers. ExpressVPN doesn't. They developed a technology called Trusted Server that makes their VPN servers incapable of storing data. Instead of using hard drives, they store it on RAM so the data is wiped out whenever the servers are powered down. ExpressVPN is fast, because it uses Lightway, a new VPN protocol that they've engineered to make user speeds faster than ever. If you've tried other VPNs, you'll know that sometimes they can stall your connection. But with ExpressVPN, it's always

blazing fast and lets you stream videos in HD quality with zero buffering. I've always found ExpressVPN to be super quick and I've watched a ton of video with it in the past. But this lightweight stuff is something new that they've added and it's even faster than before. And it's so easy to use. There's no technical skills needed. You just fire up the app, you tap with one button to connect. Your kids, grandparents, tech savvy or not, anyone can use it. CNET, The Verge, and many other tech websites have rated ExpressVPN the number one VPN in the world. You should try it out for yourself so you can understand. Go protect yourself with the VPN that I use and trust. Go to expressvpn.com slash upgrade and you'll get an extra three months free

on a one-year package. That's e-x-p-r-e-s-s-vpn.com slash upgrade. One last time, expressvpn.com slash upgrade to learn more. It just sits in your menu bar. It's an app on your iPad, your iPhone. Tap one button, you're connected really easy. A thanks to ExpressVPN for the support of this show

and RelayFM. Hashtag ask upgrade time. Detroit wants to know, do you imagine that universal control could change how you use your devices at your desk and maybe which devices you have on your desk? Now you, I don't know for me because I have a giant iPad or iMac screen in front of me.

Yeah. And so I'm not, and I don't usually have another device next to it. It's possible. And certainly when I travel, it's very possible. Yeah. But I keep thinking about you and how this might be a feature that you would use a lot. Is that true? I think so.

I think so. use a lot. Is that true? I think so. I think so. So I typically have an iPad around, you know, like recently, especially this past week, I've had my iPad open just kind of like on the desk next to me. And I'm just like moving over and trying out different things. I would like to be able to just use the one mouse and keyboard to move over to it. I could also imagine a world in which I buy one of these many mounting things and mount an iPad to my desk, right? Like have an arm for my iPad to attach to. I have that 12 south thing, which you can attach with an arm and I'd probably do that. Same. Because then it's just there. There are some things that I like to do with iOS and iPadOS. There are some apps experiences that

I find nicer. And so I think I could very much imagine using this feature quite naturally, honestly. So I'm excited. I'm really keen to try it out. Like I've been living this second monitor lifestyle for a while. So I'm recording you now and I have been for the last few weeks on the 21 inch iMac that Apple sent over.

And I have the Dell monitor that I was using on my Mac mini to the side of it. And I have the Dell monitor that I was using my Mac Mini to the side of it. And I have it in portrait mode. And that's where all my recording apps go. So they're just off the screen. And so I've been using two monitors recently anyway. I could very much imagine having an iPad on the other side of it and get real command center kind of feel going on. I would be into that random one asks what type of apple events are your favorite stuff like wwdc iphone events surprise hardware events what is the one that you maybe look forward to the most i oh this is a this is a great question and i don't know the

answer to it i know my answer if you'd like to give my answer it's wwdc it's when the most can happen like i i and also when the most surprise can happen you know the iphone event's great but i'm typically we know a lot of stuff going into it and like this wwdc was a perfect example for me we didn't know anything i was super excited and then i my excitement was borne out like they throw all these things at you and there's so much stuff and there's always new things and it's typically the event that i leave the most excited from where the other events i feel like maybe i have a better idea going into it i think i mean i agree with you everything you said, I agree. And I'll throw in just from a personal, since this is about personal favorites, WWDC represents when it's in person, seeing people who get invited to come. Whereas at WWDC, it's everybody comes, right?

And it's a great time socially. That said, it's also when it's in person, it's a grind. I have to stay in a hotel and I am trying to do my job and see people and it's a lot. And it's not like it isn't a grind uh remotely but remotely i'm entirely focused on my job and believe it or not having fun with friends at wwdc is counterbalanced by me feeling like i'm not every moment i'm having fun i'm not doing my job and it's a difficult thing to navigate mentally. So I'm going to say I like a new Mac event. Ooh, yeah. Okay. I like a new Mac event. They're more surprising, right? Because the iPhone event is like out of

time. And I almost said a new iPad event, but really it's like, I like a new Mac event, I think the best because they are usually a surprise or at least sort of surprising. They're not on a schedule and there's hardware. I'm often under embargo for that event, which means I'm getting the hardware not after, not before it's announced, but before. Sometimes it's before it's announced, but oftentimes it's before it's available to the general public. but oftentimes it's before it's available to the general public typically you'll get not not with an event but you might get hardware before it's announced and then there's a press release right that's that's true sometimes it's uh you know that 16-inch macbook pro we got briefed before they announced it and we did that interview before they announced it so was that an event

i don't know but i love that but even if it's something where they announce it all, like at Brooklyn when they did the new MacBook Air, along with the iPad Pro and the other stuff, that Brooklyn event, there was the new Mac Mini and the new MacBook Air. And I love that because not only was that a fun event and it puts the Mac in the spotlight, but I end up with the hardware and I get to do a Mac hardware review and I love a Mac hardware review. It's a lot of fun. So I would probably put that at the top. Those, those, those reviews, the iPad and Mac reviews, especially iPad pro and Mac reviews are my favorites. Um, and I guess the other thing about WWDC is that it has a weird output where it's sort of like we talk about it for a while, but it doesn't really come due. I mean, there's the public beta releases.

I'll probably write a bunch of stuff. But after WWDC, there's this kind of general busyness, but not super busy, where you know that you have to cover this stuff. Federico deals with this with his iOS review, right? Which is the work begins, but it's not a frantic dash to a week out or a day out or two weeks out. Instead, it's the work begins and it leads to something three months later. So that is actually, I would say, a sort of against wwdc is it's just sort of like oh geez the work begins right and it's a little less and it's more of a a slog so as much as i like about wwdc that's my answer i think in the end is a mac a mac hardware event is a lot of fun

hopefully we'll have one of those pretty soon i hope soemary asks, if you could choose any color for the MacBook Pro refresh, what would it be? Not one of the iMac colors. I have two, and they're both based on the idea of Pro. I'm being realistic here to what I think I could expect. One would be, I

want a matching MacBook Pro to my gold iPhone. I want stainless steel gold rails around the outside like blinging off the side i just why not i love the look of this iphone give me that in a macbook pro or more realistically a nice dark blue something akin to that pacific blue i think would look really nice on a laptop dark blue laptop has been my dream for a while now. So I would love a dark blue. I'm going with you. Dark blue on a MacBook Pro would be really nice. If we can't pick iMac colors. And Dinesh asks, I think maybe we'll just answer this once. So everybody that

wants to ask this question, here's your answer. All right. Dinesh, should I sell my 2017 MacBook Pro and get the latest M1 MacBook Pro or should I wait for the M1X? Mike, what do you think? Diamond hands, that thing. Don't let go. Don't do it. Don't buy a MacBook Pro now.

There's going to be one. If you have lived with a 2017 MacBook Pro for all this time, hold on to it. Don't let it go. We're months away at most, right? Don't do it. You're not going to be happy with the low-end M1 13-inch MacBook Pro. I mean, it's nice, but you... Look, it's a great computer, and I've loved using mine, But it didn't seem like one was around the corner when that came out.

It is around the corner now. And it's not a MacBook Pro. I know it's called a MacBook Pro, but it's not the MacBook Pro. The MacBook Pro is still to come and will have more power. It's a MacBook Air that's slightly bigger with a touch bar. That's what it is. If you've waited this long, wait a little longer. Diamond hands, like you said, Mike.

Like I said. Diamond hands. If you would like to send in a question for us to answer on the show just send out a tweet with the hashtag ask upgrade or use question mark ask upgrade in the relay fm members discord which you can get access to if you sign up for upgrade plus go to get upgrade plus dot com and you can sign up now and you will get longer ad free episodes every time we publish upgrade that could be weekly sometimes there's extra ones and you even get longer ad-free episodes every time we publish Upgrade. That could be weekly. Sometimes there's extra ones and you even get longer versions of those too. And thank you to all of you

who continue to support the show. Thanks to ExpressVPN, DoorDash, Pingdom, and FitBud for their support of this week's episode. You can go to sixcolors.com where you can find loads of articles that have been written over the last week or so. So many. By Jason and Dan Moran.

And I saw that old tricky Stephen Hackett sneaking up in there, publishing a few stuff last week. Yeah, he was. You can also find Jason. He is at Jason L J S N E double L. And I am at I Mike I M Y K E. We'll be back next time.

Until then say goodbye. Jason Snow. Goodbye. Mike Hurley.