Upgrade - 39: Developers do a Lot of Running

Episode Date: June 1, 2015

We prepare for WWDC by discussing Jason’s coverage preparation and the future of OS X, and then Myke forces Jason to make WWDC predictions. Plus lots of Google follow-up, and we answer more of your questions.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode number 39 today's show is brought to you by igloo an internet you'll actually like lynda.com where you can instantly stream thousands of courses created by industry experts and mail route a secure hosted email service for protection from viruses and spam. My name is Mike Hurley and I am joined by Mr. Jason Snell. Hi, Jason Snell. Hello, Mike Hurley. How are you? I am very well.

How are you? I'm doing fine. It is, it's another Monday. We are starting the week together. A week from now, as we record this, the Apple WWDC keynote will be happening right now yeah this is the big week like you know you think wwdc week is like the busy week of all the you know all the crazy stuff happening that this week is the busy one trying to get ready for wwdc and the week of like not really the same work um that's the one that i struggle with you know because yeah

there is work stuff happening but there's also a lot of not work stuff happening and just trying to get everything together like pre-recording shows this week and stuff like that as well as getting ready for for me to travel across the globe uh it's a daunting thing but it's something that i look forward to every year because this week is also the run-up to next week which makes you very excited yeah next week's going to be really exciting i i'm fortunate oftentimes my kids last week of school is wwdc week and i have these commitments to various kid things that are in the middle of wwdc which is really inconvenient because i have work i have to do and this year i don't know what happened. I got really lucky. Their last week of school is the week after WWDC.

And most of the events that they're doing in terms of, you know, end of school performances or trips or things like that are happening this week and a little bit last week. So next week ended up being almost clear. I think I have one thing on Friday night that I have to do for my son. And otherwise, all their stuff is other times. So that's good. I can focus on WWDC.

This will be my first WWDC week without an office in the city. That will also be interesting because that's a totally different... I think good because I'm not going to have... People in my office didn't really care that there was a developer conference going on. They just wanted to invite me to meetings. And I wasn't marked as out of office because I wasn't traveling or anything. And so I ended up being pulled into meetings about things that had nothing to do with it. And this year, I can just be focused on WWDC and everything surrounding it.

So I'm looking forward to that, too. That is actually going to be a topic today i wanted to kind of talk to you a little bit about um how how you you're planning for this one all right but we should do some follow-up first and then we'll get to it how about that should i would love that format it's important for podcasts to have a format i think our format is that we do follow-up at the beginning. It's new. It's crazy. I know. Most podcasts do their follow-up in the middle, backward.

But we do it at the beginning. Let's see. We've got a whole smattering of follow-up here. How do you have a smattering? Is it a whole smattering? I don't know. We talked about watching, looking at your Apple watch in a movie theater

that came up last last week and i got a good piece of feedback from justin on twitter who said you can go into the settings app on your apple watch and turn off the activate on wrist raise and that pretty much will do it and you don't need to power down and that's absolutely true you have to go to the app view find the the settings app, tap on the settings app, scroll down to general, scroll to activate on wrist raise, and then turn it off. Powering it down, you know, you press the one button and hold it down and then slide it to power it down or put it in the, you know, the low power mode. And then you press and hold and it reboots.

So it depends on what you want to do. and then you press and hold and it reboots. So it depends on what you want to do. That one is a little more fiddly, but it does keep your watch working during the movie and then you go turn it back on when you're done. So that's a perfectly reasonable approach. I don't think it's bright enough for it to make a difference. I'm warming to my idea that I suggested last time

of creating a face with almost nothing on it like a modular phase with just the time and have it be read and just switch to that one when you're in the movie theater nobody's going to notice you know some red text popping up every now and then um then we also uh we had a bunch of suggestions about joint list managers you remember we talked about grocery apps last week i I knew this would happen. We said all those things about Google, and we got more feedback about grocery lists. Yeah, very peculiar.

So the first comes from Lee, and Lee suggests Wanderlist as an option. Wanderlist is very good. It has a watch app. I like Wanderlist. I've used it for some joint task stuff and have been very happy with it. So I would suggest that. This is the thing.

That's the kind of thought that I didn't put into it last week because I was thinking about like grocery list apps. But Wanderlist is like a task management app, but it can be used for that for sure. I mean, there are lots of ways to share lists. Cool. Sure. I mean, there are lots of ways to share lists. One of the nice things about the grocery, the purpose-built grocery apps, is that you can do things like Grocery IQ will let me scan in a barcode and add that product. And that can be useful when one of the people shopping doesn't know the exact brand name of the one. What's the one we buy?

What's the size we buy? And that can be really useful. And it's got a whole database. And something freeform like Wunderlist is not going to be able to do that quite as well but um if you're using it for other things and also can you can use it to do a shared list for shopping that's absolutely true and harlequin uh suggested an app called bring and there's a few people that actually suggested this yeah more than one it looks very interesting like it looks quite nice it's it's quite a visual app and it looks you know you kind of put in your groceries and your items via using

these little icons and yeah it looks pretty good it does look but it has a watch app as well so that actually comes with a few recommendations so that's definitely one to check out um and then tom mango who has the perfect name uh to suggest a grocery list app suggested paprika um yeah which is a recipe app but also has a has a grocery feature i i do have paprika um it's it's it's not bad it used to i used to not like it as much i think it's gotten a lot better but um i hadn't i was not even aware that it did groceries, although I'm a skeptic of meal planning. I probably should be better at meal planning, but a lot of times the stuff that I need at the store is not, you know, get me the stuff to make a meal. It's I need baking powder. No, I need some more juice. And so I'm skeptical about grocery apps that are built around meal planning as the primary.

But I can see why that would appeal to some people. And Paprika is a fun recipe app, too. We have one more piece of list follow-up, too. From Casey List. Casey List. Yes. Yes. It's in his name, Casey List.

He makes lots of lists. He suggested an app called AnyList, which makes me unhappy because the only reason that I use Silo is because he suggested it, and I don't know why he didn't then update with me personally to tell me about AnyList. But I like Silo, and this app, to app to me i mean i find silo very simple and visually appealing uh this app to me it doesn't have that same visual appeal but it's there if you want it it comes with the list uh list list recommendation it's on casey's list all right so there's our meal planning follow-up out of the way and i can't believe comparatively

how little google follow-up we got well in fact our biggest google follow-up was that marco wrote a post and then john gruber linked to it that was specifically about our discussion. So that was nice. Marco Arment wrote a thing called Why Not Google over on marco.org and then during Fireball linked to that. So that was big. We also got some feedback after the IO keynote, which I should say, the Google IO keynote happened last week. We did talk about it a lot on Clockwise89. So you can go to relay.fm slash clockwise slash 89 to listen to that. Me and Dan Morin along with Andrzej Tomic and Andy and Iko. Yeah, that was a really great episode.

Yeah, those guys are both Android users. So that was really helpful to have them in the mix. And also just entertaining. Yes, they are. They're both entertaining. So Andrew wrote in to say, do you think using Google Photos is giving up too much privacy considering what you said in Upgrade 38? And I thought it was interesting that when Google announced Google Photos, they made a point of saying that by default, everything that you are using Google Photos for is private, and it's just for you.

Now, their systems can access it all because they do intelligent things to try and categorize them all. So you have to feel comfortable with the fact that Google's – it's not like some of the Apple stuff where it's encrypted up on the server and Apple can't see it, so they can't do anything with it. Google doesn't behave that way. crypt it up on the server and Apple can't see it. So they can't do anything with it. Google doesn't behave that way. But I would say what I'm experimenting with Google Photos, and I'm interested to see how it works. And I think what I have said about Google last week and what Mike said kind of goes, which is, you know, it's being built like Gmail. Their systems are reading my content and trying to do things with it to make me able to find things faster. But I don't feel like that there's a Google employee flipping through my photos. That said, would I be reluctant to have photos that are personally embarrassing, let's

say, or compromising in some way, upload it to a cloud service? Well, yeah, any cloud service, I would say that. Not just Google. I would say that with Apple, too. If you've got, you know, if you kill somebody and you get pictures of the murder scene, don't put those in the cloud. Don't do it. Just don't do it. So on that, though, it is kind of private and solid at the moment, but I think quite fairly, Google has said that that doesn't necessarily mean it will be that way forever. There was a great interview with Bradley Horowitz,

who's currently in charge of streams and photos, I think is what his division is called, with Stephen Levy on his Medium blog, Back Channel. And so Stephen Levy asked, is that information in photos siloed or is that going to be available to enhance my Google experience and other products? So this is the information that they're able to glean

via their learning. What is it called? Machine learning, that's it. Yes. Deep neural networks. Yes. Bradley's answer was, the information gleaned from analyzing these photos does not travel outside of this product, not today.

But if I thought we could return immense value to the users based on this data, I'm sure we would reconsider that. For instance, if it were possible for Google Photos to figure out that I have a Tesla and Tesla wanted to alert me to a recall, that would be a service that we would consider offering with appropriate controls and disclosure to the user. Google now is a great example when I'm late for a flight and I get a Google now notification.

My flight has been delayed. I can chill out and take an extra hour, breathe deeply. I like the upfrontness. And I mean, you know, this goes back to that thing again. I see the value in that.

I'm happy with that. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And this is their game. I think if if i had to um if i had to qualify or let me say if i if i had to summarize the arguments i hear most often about why people don't use google services it's that they're um they're creeped out by the fact, and Marco said this, and I think he's right that, you know, Apple has its issues. And he says always arrogant, controlling, and inflexible, and sometimes stingy. And then there's Google, always creepy, entitled, and overreaching,

and sometimes oblivious. I think there's truth to that. But I do think that people see conspiracies where there aren't any. Or believe things that are happening that aren't necessarily happening. We got one piece of feedback from somebody who said they were searching on Amazon for a product and then later they went to a different site and they saw an ad for the product they were searching and that it was creepy. But that's not Google, that's Amazon. And I think a lot of creepy things on the internet get ascribed to Google. I think the creepiest stuff that happens on the internet is not happening because of Google. I think the creepiest stuff on the internet is happening because of ad tracking and ad networks. And then I might put Facebook.

And then I put Google down on the list. I do think Google does some things that feel creepy, but that's because I think Google tries very hard to mine information and apply it in clever ways. And some of the people, let's say the engineers who build their products, I think don't always consider and don't have a product manager necessarily who's considering how that will be viewed by people. Like, this is a great advance. We can know everything about them. And there's nobody to say, and that will creep them out. And I think they're getting better at that, actually.

I think the Google Photos product is very cool. I think it's the fact that they don't want you to do any categorization yourself and that it just sort of does it for you. It's really cool. They had some of that before when it was inside Google Plus. They make their animated GIFs and things like that. Apple tries to do this stuff too, but the difference is that Apple is doing that on the Mac, basically, instead of in the cloud. And I think that's the difference in approaches. The problem right now is that all that metadata doesn't really sync. that's the difference in approaches. The problem right now is that all that metadata doesn't really sync. So you can find faces on photos on your Mac, but if right now, you know, there's no faces view on the iPhone, that data doesn't sync. So there are some issues with Apple's approach versus the

power that Google can apply to it. But yeah, you know, I get it when people say it's creepy. I just, I don't know. I see them applying value and this is the way they have to do it. And I don't think there's a grand conspiracy that Google's going to learn everything about you from your photos and then that's a privacy risk or, you know, I just, you can see it if you want, but I think Google gets blamed for a lot more than they actually deserve for creepiness.

Brandon wrote in to say one thing, that this is another thing that Google do get criticized for. And I think in some instances, rightly so, that you can invest your time into these products that they make, but they don't have a real problem with killing things. And you can kind of understand that if it's not working, then you've got to kill it. But it is a problem that sometimes if something doesn't necessarily meet whatever the goals are at Google, they kill it off. And I've seen a lot of people say that about photos. I don't think that Google Photos is going to go that way because um i saw steven say this to someone on twitter and i totally agree photo management now is a key part of big company

strategies like it's just a thing you have to have now which is why everybody's doing it absolutely and google has to have it because they have android like well they yeah i mean they first off they've got the they've got the platform and that's the most natural thing for photo integration is on a cell phone and it is i think i wrote a piece about this at some point maybe last year that photos is the nuclear bomb of the internet photos is the thing that everybody wants and everybody wants everybody's photos that that is the nuclear bomb of the Internet. Photos is the thing that everybody wants, and everybody wants everybody's photos. Because that is the powerful connection we have. That's why Facebook wants your photos.

That's why Yahoo wants your photos. Google wants your photos. Apple wants your photos. Everybody wants your photos. Because once, if you are the place everybody puts all of their photos, then that is basically your home on the internet, at least for this chunk of your life. It's a powerful thing. Dropbox wants all your photos. Everybody wants your photos. And so Google has to do it. Plus, Google is the operating system vendor for a smartphone operating system. So you have to integrate it there too. So it's a natural that this would happen.

I do agree about the spaghetti against the wall problem with Google. They're kind of too big to do that. They try a billion different things. And if you adopt all of them, you know, some of those things are going to get killed. And I appreciate the fact that they, how should I phrase this? I appreciate the discipline that goes with Google deciding to kill products. I don't appreciate the lack of discipline that goes with Google thinking about the products before they launch them. I feel like that is a place, that's a part of Google's personality that I don't like,

is I feel like sometimes they launch stuff without thinking it through. And I think that's, if we talk about sort of arrogant behavior of large corporations in the technology world, I think that is one of Google's most arrogant bits of behavior is we're so big that we can have these kind of half-assed ideas for products and put them out there and see what happens. And the consequence of that is a lot of people waste a lot of time building products and using products that are crippled, that are never going to make it, and that end up being colossal failures. And this is, I mean, yeah, I'm coming as somebody who has

really watched Apple for a long time. This is one of the places where Apple is better. Apple's not pristine at this either, but Apple is better at having discipline about the products they release that they're not going to a year later go, oh, nevermind. Now, you know, we can always come with examples. Ping is a good example of a badly thought out product that didn't work. And I, you know, we can, we can talk about, and many, much ink has been spilled about why Ping was a failure and what that said about Apple at the time. But I do think that that makes you gun shy. It's like people who said they won't watch any more sci-fi shows on Fox after they cancel Firefly. It's like there's a lack of trust.

They're just going to cancel the show that I love. So I'm just not going to watch any other shows because they're just they're cancelers. They're going to cancel me. And, you know, there was some truth to, and some of it was just paranoia. But I totally get the emotional reaction to that. And I think that is a problem with Google. Is Google Voice, if you rely on Google Voice, how certain are you, as Brandon pointed out,

that Google Voice is going to be there next year? They don't talk about it. They kind of aren't into it. So is it just going to fade away? Yeah, if I was a google voice user i would start seriously thinking about not being a google voice user yeah like they bring out everything on io and they do not bring that out you know they put products they put products and people on stage at io that don't have to be on stage at io they could make other features about like for example, I think it's great that they did it, but you know all the stuff where they were

talking about like trying to help the developing world, things like that that was fantastic, but didn't necessarily fit the developer conference, because it was kind of just like this is stuff that Google's doing to what I saw, there didn't really seem to be any tools they were giving, but

it was like the world's view is on them. So basically, let's tell the world the incredible things that we do. Does that make sense? Right. Yep. But I very much enjoyed that part of the keynote, but it didn't necessarily fit with what the overall theme of the day was. but it didn't necessarily fit with what the overall theme of the day was. But basically what I'm saying is they bring out stuff that they think is important to them.

They do not ever talk about Google Voice, which used to be something that was very important. No, it will probably survive as a feature inside Hangouts. It's already integrated with Hangouts now. But yeah, if your business relies on Google Voice and you've got a whole workflow based on Google Voice, you've got to be nervous about that. Ben Thompson... Look at Hangouts instead. Yeah, Ben Thompson had a good piece at Stratechery about how he thought that the second half of the keynote

was much more representative of Google's strengths about machine learning and deep neural networks and doing really smart things with data. That's what they're good at. The first half of the keynote felt like it was like the stuff, it was obligatory. They had to talk about Android. And I thought it was really interesting that Android M is pitched largely as a bug fix release.

And then the features that they did add are sort of just like trying to unify things that where they're perceived as being a little bit behind Apple. And I'm hoping that from Apple's side, we get something similar at WWDC, which is bug fixes are important stability is important Google went on stage and said that that these operating systems have been moving really fast

we've added a lot of features to them we need to shake out some of the bugs now and I was happy to hear them say that and a bunch of my on Clockwise, Ange and Andy both said the same thing which is yeah please you know please make them more stable and fix the battery life problems and you know android users they were uh they were very pleased to hear google say we're

gonna slow down and fix some bugs is it bad for me to say that whilst I want that on Monday, that isn't all I want? Is that bad to say? No, I would go back to when they did Snow Leopard, when Apple did Snow Leopard. They pitched it as about features and about stability and bug fixes and things like that. And in the end, there were still 100 new features. And in the end, there were still 100 new features. I think you can get more than that. But I think having a focus on it, saying, look, instead of having eight amazing new features, we're going to have four amazing new features.

And then feature five is bugs and, you know, decreased bugs and more stability. I think that's what you do is you scale it back a little bit. After iOS 7 and 8, I feel like there was so much in those that scaling it back is still going to add a bunch of stuff. But they also have added so much stuff that kind of works that probably needs to actually work. So I feel like that's the other piece here is let's fix up some of the stuff that we've've left kind of half built and let's also take some of our old stuff that's falling apart and rebuild it so that's what i'm i'm hoping for i mean we're sort of jumping ahead here but i'm hoping for a mixture of those things one thing that they could do i mean probably developers will think i'm crazy here but um like the problem is it seems to be adding things that are core to the OS

is making more problems, right? The more core OS features you add, the more complexity you add, and you're taking people that could be fixing bugs and making them make new features. But what if you just had people that were building cool apps that came with iOS 9, right? So they don't necessarily affect the OS, but it could be other things. And when I say that, I mean like the music streaming service, right? I mean, yes,

it takes work on the music app, but that's just the music app, you know? And then they have like a service that goes alongside it. Like let's say they do TV stuff and then they have a new entertainment app on the iPhone or something. So they feel like OS features, but really they're kind of just things that they just release with the OS. Is that crazy? Am I totally barking up the wrong tree? No, it depends on where they put their emphasis. But we've definitely looked at some of the apps that Apple ships are not up to the standard of the best apps on the platform right and uh they probably should be so i think that's reasonable and and that stuff that doesn't necessarily interfere with the infrastructure there is a delicate line apple needs to walk

between um yeah and they always they always move from one side to the other which is do we do we create apps that are just going to kill other app opportunities or do we create things that only Apple can create? And they do a little bit of both. Yep. Um, are we out of follow-up now? There was one other thing I wanted to mention briefly, which was just, uh, uh, Williams who identified himself as an upgrade-a-roo, not acceptable, um, said that, Said that we use Google Drive at work and have hundreds of gigabytes of data from several use of projects.

And he says searching it is surprisingly terrible. Yeah, it's weird. I've started doing that recently because I'm getting more and more and more files in Google Drive. So I'm just searching them. And it doesn't work as well as you think it would work, which doesn't make sense.

They've screwed up Google Drive. This is an example where Google, you know, if there are people, are there people with blogs about Google services like there are about Apple stuff? Because this is where people should be howling. I should write a story about this at some point. They've screwed it up. The fact that you've got Drive and Sheets and Docs and Slides and they behave differently on those different pages. It used to be like everything was in Drive, and Google Docs was essentially the same.

It's synonymous with Google Drive, and everything was in there, and you could search for it, and you could find your spreadsheet. You could find your document. And now they're all separate. The search behavior is different in different ones. I try to find a file that I know is a spreadsheet, and I can't find it in one place, but I can find it in another place. And then i've

got the version of it that's on my on my uh that syncs onto my mac uh where i actually launch a bunch of things i have launch bar searching the file names there but there's no content there um and what swilliam said is that you know it's better to just download the whole thing locally and search in the finder which is kind of sad so yeah because what it does for anybody that doesn't know if you do the google drive thing it just downloads links to the web pages basically yeah it's five little file file names and links so in in that's actually great for launch bar because i can launch something based on a file name in google drive and it opens it but uh yeah that's that's something where they are i i assume this is just all fallout from their transition to the, they want to have this idea that Google Drive is a cloud drive. And it used

to be that Google Drive was really just Google Docs, which was really a collection of files that were in the web app. And now it's more complicated than that. But on iOS, they've got the drive app plus all the different individual docs apps. then on the web they've got the same thing and you know they yeah it's hard to search and it's hard to scan for files and i i will agree with swilliams that it's kind of a mess right now i imagine it'll get better they they tend to go through this period with google apps especially where they on the web where they they work really well and then they release some new features and and they're not that good, and then they get better. But with web apps, you can never not upgrade. So you just have to go along for the ride.

And yeah, it's kind of rough right now. So I wanted to mention that one too. Yeah, it frustrates me, though, and I have to have four apps installed. I just don't understand. Because then, like, I use Launch Center Pro to launch all of my then I use Launch Center Pro to launch all of my... I use Launch Center Pro as basically a launcher for Google Drive.

So I have links to my most used files in there. But then every time I open it, I'm then opening three applications to get to one document because I have to open Launch Center Pro, then Drive, and then Docs. Because, yeah, I could just open Drive and it's two apps, but then it takes way longer to find the app. So it's just like, why isn't this all just one app?

It's crazy making. Should we take a break? I think so. This week's episode is brought to you by lynda.com. They are the online learning platform with over 3,000 on-demand video courses to help you strengthen your business, technology, and creative skills. For a free 10-day trial, visit lynda.com. That's lynda.com.

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Have you received an invite? Yes. Congratulations. I did. I got a very nice email from Apple PR asking me to appear at the keynote. So I will do that. I will present myself on Monday morning, June 8th at Moscone Center.

And yeah, so I'm looking forward to it. So I'll be there. I'll be in attendance in person. So is it just you? Well, the massive Six Colors staff of me and Dan. Dan is coming coming but I don't think Dan got an invite so I think I'll be the only one in the in the room for that uh it won't just be me at the keynote there'll be like several thousand other people there though yeah I didn't think you were

handling the invites for everybody I'm just I'm I'm taking care of i'm the pool reporter developer conference i do type fast i could do that um the yeah so so i'll be there and the question that we've had since since we've been doing six colors is how do you cover the keynote because it's going to be it's going to be live cast and in the past what we've done is we've we've done is we have a Six Colors event Twitter account that it will probably be where what I do is I'll be watching the event and taking some pictures and putting things in the Twitter account. Yeah. And that'll be it. gauging how much of that I do. I've always envied John Gruber who sits there with a, you know, like a moleskin or a field notes or something and just sort of takes notes with a pen and ponders what's going on. And the problem with live blogging is that you don't have time to

ponder. You have, you just type furiously. The nice thing about the tweeting is knowing that everybody can, you know, not everybody, but many people have access to the video um the tweeting you can hit the highlights and not and not go into like verbatim quotes about what's happening on stage and so that's better but i i also sometimes wonder whether i should just um not worry about live but you, Dan and I have had so much fun doing live blogging of events in the past that I kind of don't want to give it up entirely. But there's always that question of like, how much do I want to focus on covering the event moment by moment? And how much do I want to think about the event and think about what the highlights are so that I can write some things afterward without having to reprocess the whole keynote in my mind from a different perspective

because I was too busy kind of like tweeting or live blogging during it. It's a tough one. And honestly, as the proprietor of Six Colors, what I'm really thinking is what's best for Six Colors? Is it better for our tweets about what's going on to get circulated around so that people know we exist and hopefully will you know that'll improve our our readership or is it better for us to bypass that or not be as focused on that in order to generate some better stuff later it's a you know that's something that i grapple with and i have since i left macworld um i mean it might be interesting to trial you know obviously not right now because it's a bit soon but like you know you could be the drunk gruber in the audience and you could have dan and somebody else maybe take over the twitter stream because it's all we'll watch the

video we'll see the same thing now yeah um well Yeah. Well, that's the thing is what Twitter gets you is if you're in the room, you can break news. It's stupid because it's just on Twitter, but you can do it. And I've had that experience where I'll say, you know, here's the new MacBook and it does this and it costs this. And I'll have that retweeted hundreds or thousands of times because I was one of the first people to make that, to break that on Twitter. That's nice. I'm not sure if that leads anywhere in terms of our business, right? But it's kind of nice in the moment and you are using the fact that you're one of the people in the group that got invited to be in the room as opposed to on a potentially janky and delayed buffered video stream. At the same time, yeah, the other approach would be to say,

it's not worth it and focus on, you know, your deep thoughts and the experience of being there so that you can write something. And this is the challenge I've got. You know, there's only one Gruber. And he made a comment about how, you know, he is the only person who's ever written anything on Daring Fireball. And, you know, the fact is, like, I have Dan and I've had some other contributors and Federico has some contributors on Max Stories. And, you know, there's only one Gruber and he has reached his place because he deserves it. He's very good at what he does. And this is one of the things he does is not play that game. And I always ask myself that. It's like, you know, I could try to be Gruber, but I'm not Gruber. I'm my own person with my own strengths and weaknesses that are different from his. So, you know, although I admire his ability to sit there and just ponder and write things in

his notebook. And seriously, my memories of these keynotes are, there are five of us frantically typing, and then I'll look over and I'll see Gruber, and he's just sitting there, you know, like pondering, nodding, writing a little thing down on a piece of paper with a pen. And, you know, the envy that shoots out of you as you're frantically typing. So it's, you know, it's a good question. But I don't want to do the verbatim kind of stuff. That's kind of ridiculous. And yeah, I do sometimes think it would be better if I said, hey, Dan, you know, you'll have access to a live stream. Why don't you do some tweeting? And I'm just gonna, I'll interject every now and then, but I'm not going to do all the heavy lifting.

I'll take some pictures, but I'm not going to do a live photo stream from the event either because in the end what's most important is that I'm here paying attention so you know that's that's a difference between breaking covering it as breaking news and covering it from the big picture perspective and probably given what I am doing now and what Six Colors is I'd be better off focusing on the big picture than on the breaking news because breaking news everybody's doing it ben thompson is out there nodding if he heard that so yes jason yes do analysis don't do breaking news breaking news is a commodity everybody can do breaking news it's true i'm finding myself a little bit conflicted about this conversation because I feel like my opinion keeps changing.

Because a moment ago I said to you anyone can do the breaking news because everyone's got the video feed. But part of the benefit of having people in the audience like John is he could see the people on the stage and could get the feel of the room and the understanding for what's happening but now again we can all do that now to a certain to a certain i mean it's not exactly the same but like we can all see the video so like it's just i wonder because at the same time do you find that your that your think piece is like is is less effective because you were like frantically typing no but it takes more time i would say to process what happens because i do have to sort of go back and replay it if not like literally i have to replay my memories of it and and think about it in terms of what my analysis is,

because there's not a lot of room for analysis when you're typing frantically. But that's the question, too, about what's the difference between being in the room and not? If they announce products, it's possible that we'll get briefings afterward, but this is a WWDC keynote. It's not like other Apple events where there's a demo room every time because there's a conference afterward. So what's our purpose in being there versus somebody watching on the live stream? That's why I've thought about covering it is that we are ahead of the live stream.

So that's an advantage to it. But at the same time, you know, there are lots of people there who are covering it for news outlets who are going to break the news. Do I really need to do that? So it's, you know, there's no easy answer here because all of us get to see the keynote. It was different when it got posted hours later or didn't get posted at all, right? But it's not like that now. So that's the question. Because it was one of the most interesting things to me about these most recent events was after the Apple Watch event where I was telling you and Federico what was happening afterwards.

You know, like we did the show and you hadn't been online. Yeah. And I was having to explain to you both like things that happened in the keynote and information that came out afterwards. And it was really interesting that you've been in the room. However, you were in this like bubble that happens more when there's that hands-on area afterward because then you're in the hands-on area getting your hands on the products which is something that nobody else you know people who aren't there don't get to touch the products so that's like your number one advantage and being there live but at the same time when you're doing that you're not pawing

through all the pr and all the tech notes and finding out all these other weird details that are coming out from other sources because you're just busy looking at the Apple Watch or typing on the MacBook or whatever the new product is at the time. I would challenge you, Jason Snell, the next special event, to not live blog it. To have people do it for you and you think. All right, we'll see. I think that would be interesting. We'll see. Try and get the best of both worlds out of it. I always consider it.

That may happen. We'll see. Let's talk about WWDC. I'm interested in the in your preparation so i would like to do a kind of day in the life if you if you don't mind okay so what time of day does does wwdc start for you like the keynote day well let's say the keynote keynote starts at 10 they start doing registration i think at eight is that right something like that I should look at your invite

I should look at my invite and see right oh it was yesterday yeah did I miss it did they I think it's the it starts at the keynote thing opens at

check-in begins at 8, doors at 9, keynote at 10. So what I'm going to do is aim to be there between 8 and 9, you know, be on the 8 side of 8 and 9. And that means, you know, getting to the city by 8.30. I'll give myself an hour. I probably don't need all of that. So that's 7.30. So leave the house at 7.30, you know, and then you back up. How long does it take for you to, you know, get up and shower and get ready and get out the door? Which for me is generally not a lot of time, but yeah.

7.15, I'll wake up. I'll set the alarm for 6.30 or something like that. Yeah. And I'll pack up. The night before, I will hopefully have packed up my stuff, you know, camera again, especially if I've decided that I'm going to be taking pictures and things. Camera and laptop and the right cables, all of that sort of thing in a bag ready to go so that I'm, you know, I don't have to pack my bag when I'm leaving in the morning. Usually if I'm taking pictures, too, I've got this tethering set up using Aperture. when I'm leaving in the morning. Usually if I'm taking pictures too, I've got this tethering set up using Aperture.

And so I will end up the day before running a test with that on a Sunday afternoon where I've got my camera open and it's tethered to my laptop and I'm taking pictures to make sure that all my scripts and stuff to upload that stuff actually works. What do you do when you get to Moscone? Like what actually happens?

Well, it used to be I'd drive to the office and then i'd walk over but i don't have an office anymore so i will park somewhere probably in the mission garage which is right next it's right around the corner from mosconi it's an enormous parking garage and you get there and if if registration has opened then you know you basically you walk in you say that you're with the press because there's a long long developer line that's you say that you're with the press because there's a long, long developer line that's waited for hours and hours. With the press, you just walk in and say, I'm here for media registration. They point you down. And then there are two or three people from Apple PR sitting at a table. And if you go at eight o'clock, there'll be a long line of media people who are waiting in that line. And if you go at 840, there's probably nobody there.

That's how it works. People get there really early and wait in the line. And then if you go a little bit later, there's often no line at all. And they'll give you a badge and send you upstairs. And you go up to the third floor. So you go up two long escalator rides to get to the top. And there's an area where the press is. So on the way up up you'll often see

they'll stage some of the line for the developers will be on the second floor so they'll be going up one set of escalators you're going up another set you'll see people sometimes you know waiting in the queue on the second floor to come up um and then uh i kind of imagine everyone going up the press escalator like, yeah. Yeah, there's a little bit of that. There's a little bit of that. And then you get up to the third floor, and that's where all the keynote guests are that are not the developers. So that's your media and VIPs and analysts and stuff like that.

And there's usually, you know, it's WWDC, so there's a refreshment station there so there's juice and some food and stuff like that which i tend i tend not to drink because then you have to go to the bathroom during the keynote which is a bad idea um although the other way to do it is to also sometimes that you can't get to the bathroom on the third floor uh before the keynote doors open and that's difficult because then you have to go back down and you have to negotiate your way back down and then back up and it's a whole thing so this is not interesting anyway that is so you end to go back down and you have to negotiate your way back down and then back up. And it's a whole thing. So this is not interesting. Anyway, that is so you end up waiting up there. And then at some point the doors open. What they'll do is they'll load in the photographers first because they get to go to the special photographer area. And then at some point they just let you go. And everybody sort of as it gets closer to that time, all the press are just sort of massing closer and closer toward the door, you know, closer and closer toward where the doors are going to be. And then the doors come up and you walk in and some people run, but that's really undignified. And there's usually a lot of room and you, you know, you get

up there and, and you've tried to find a, find a spot that's close and not a terrible angle because they put us off to the side and, you know, and then, and you, if you've, if you've run into some people and you want to sit near them, then, keep eye contact with them and find where they're all sitting and you sit there and that's it. And then usually what happens is we all get seated in there and then there's a roar and that's the rush of all the developers running in. Is there a lot of running? Developers do a lot of running. That's where Fist Pump Guy comes from. Fist Pump Guy is a runner.

Fist Pump Guy runs to the point where he can be on camera going, whoa, and pumping his fist. That guy. Yeah, no, the developers are excited and they want to get good seats, so they run. A lot of running. They've also been standing a long time in a line, and finally they're let loose.

They're unchained to run, and they do. Run, developers, run. What do you do afterwards afterwards it's funny so the lights come up and and you're standing there and some people go to the front and try to get a moment with tim or something like that or overhear what tim is talking about that happens sometimes or phil schiller because usually at the front of that area they'll be sometimes with a with a product that gotiller. Because usually at the front of that area, they'll be sometimes with a product that got announced. That'll be at the front. WWDC is a little bit different in that you have this event that's going on afterward. A pure press event isn't quite like that. you know in the media um or some developers you run into and and share some thoughts about it back when i was doing macworld then we had multiple people there there would also be some like who's doing what where are we going are you gonna are we gonna meet at back of the office are we gonna do

a podcast all that sort of thing like a one two three break yeah yeah so as a solo person i don't have to i don't have to worry about that that kind of of game planning stuff. But yeah, so, and then eventually you kind of wander out. And if you've got a briefing with Apple PR, you might hang around and wait to be called into the back to get a briefing. And if you, if you, if you don't have a briefing, then you maybe chat with developers and media people that you see. But, you know, eventually you, you realize that, you know, one, you need to get yourself some lunch and two, you probably got a half a dozen stories to write. And you go downstairs and you head out.

And those badges are only good for the keynote. Sometimes they let press have conference badges to hang out for the week, and I've had that the last few years. But I don't think that's happening this year, at least not for me. And I wasn't going to buy one. I didn't even put in for that. So then you leave. And this year will be different because there are people around and there's Alt Conf

and there's layers and there's a lot of other stuff going on too. I'll be looking for you, Mike, so that we can do our special post-keynote edition of Upgrade. I'll be hiding. I'll probably be at Blue Bottle or something. I don't know where I'm going to be. I don't know where I'm going to be. I haven't decided where I'm going to watch the keynote yet.

I should probably make that decision. The Relay Hotel Suite. Well, I really enjoyed last year. There was a guy, English and Singleton, so Luke and everybody put on a event at Twitter's office to watch the keynote. And I really, really enjoyed watching it in a room with people.

So I know that Release Notes and Alt Conf are doing a thing where they're going to be showing a lot of sessions in the keynote for free, I believe, in the alt-comp venue.

So I might do that. I don't know yet. Because, for example, if it ends up being like 10 or 15 friends can get into one hotel suite or whatever and watch it, then that might be perfectly fine. But I'll see. I just haven't really put that

thought into it yet, but I should probably make that decision soon enough. Okay. Let's take a break, and then I want to actually talk to you about what you think is going to happen on Monday. Excellent. I especially want to talk to you about OS X. Alright.

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So I've had this topic in the document for a couple of weeks because I'm interested in getting your thoughts on OS X. And one of the reasons I want to talk to you about this is I listen to lots of shows that focus on iOS. I have other shows that focus on iOS.

But I really believe that you are probably a person that is in a good place to think about where os 10 is going remember the mac mike remember that i have no idea what you're talking about so do you think that we're going to see os 10.11 at wwc i think we'll see a new version of os 10. I mean, I wrote that piece on Macworld about how I feel like it's a great time for them to drop the OS X branding and start calling it Mac OS again,

and then they can make it 11.0. But I do think there'll be a new version of OS X and that'll have a California location as a code name or marketing name or whatever they want to call it. I do think that'll happen. I think that they, I would be, I would be shocked if they said, yeah, we're not gonna, we're just going to keep on iterating on Yosemite for another year. It wouldn't surprise me if they called it 10.11. It wouldn't surprise me if they called it 11.0.

It wouldn't surprise me if they called it 10.10.5, honestly, wouldn't surprise me. I'm still, I'm still hed uh my bets eventually for it to be apple os um because that just feels like that's the route that current apple is like moving away from i and stuff and it sounds horrible but but the imac is not going to become the mac and the iphone is not going to become the apple phone it's just it's the i is they're stuck with the i on some of their top level products so sure. I don't believe that will happen, but shine on, you crazy diamond. You know me. If I throw enough crazy things out there, one of them is going to stick one day. Well, I know. I just listed all the possibilities

that I think will happen. So I'll be able to point back and say, see, I mentioned that one. I told you I was right. I told you that was one of the possibilities. Yes, it'll all explode or won't. I got that one right because it'll be one of those. Very, very binary. What do you think is really likely to come to OS X? I find it harder and harder these days to think of what OS X features could be. The one that I always thought, oh, are redesigned and they've done that now so like well the rumors are that they're going to bring the san francisco font that's in the apple watch and that's going to unify across the apple

watch and ios and mac os so that's that's one that that i they they have gone you know yosemite did a lot and they changed the font to helvetica Noia, but that this will, this will sort of change the typeface again and have it be more unified across Apple's product line. So that's a thing. That's a really minor thing, but that's a thing. I think there's a lot of, not to get back to the boring bug fixes and stability, but keeping things in step with iOS and having the iOS and Mac OS and Apple Watch, frankly, integration all just kind of have all the handoff stuff, have all the inter-device communications work better with one another, fix a lot of bugs, support whatever new initiatives that Apple's got that will be on the phone and the watch and the iPad in the future. I think all of that comes into play.

I agree that there's not a lot of low-hanging fruit. I mean, I wrote a piece. My column on Macworld last week was about, I was just going to write a link about this rumor that Apple, or it was like a patent report of Apple doing a keyboard that had touched the keys are are itself a trackpad so you don't necessarily need a trackpad you just move your finger across the keys and you move your cursor and I it ended up being this totally different article that was essentially saying as I was writing it, I was realizing that the Mac now has this weird position for Apple where I don't think the best and brightest at Apple are spending huge amounts of time looking at the Mac and saying,

what can we do on the Mac to revolutionize the PC in the next 15 years of the existence of the personal computer? Because in some ways, a lot of those ideas make the Mac not the Mac anymore. Makes the Mac into something else, probably an iPad, essentially. And they already have an iPad. They already have iOS. One of the great factors in the popularity and success of the Mac as a product at this point in its life, in 2015, is that it is a traditional computer, right? It's like a laptop with a keyboard and a screen. It has a pointer that you use,

you move around, a cursor. It's got all the classic kind of software on it. It has that paradigm is strong on the Mac. And I feel like that is great. I am a Mac user and I love my Mac and I couldn't survive without it, I think. But if you put too much innovation into it, you've broken the metaphor. And the reason people want this product is that it's like it is. It is what it is. It's a computer. And, and so a lot of the real innovation that Apple's doing in terms of like, what's the computer of the future going to be is happening on iOS. It's not happening on the Mac. So that puts, that puts OS 10 in a difficult position because while they want to evolve the hardware and the software on the Mac, they it's totally going to be radically different, then it's eliminating the number one appeal of this product, which is that it's a computer, that it works like we expect a computer to, and it's got more power, but it also has that interface that we're used to. So I think it's tough. I think it's really tough for them to push the platform, which is why I think the last few years, what OS X development has largely been about is integration with Apple's other devices, like handoff and things like that,

which when they work are spectacular, but they don't work as well as they should. And so I feel like the more they can do with that, given how the Mac App Store is not super exciting, maybe the more that they can do in terms of continuing to improve their apps that come with the system would be welcome. I mean, we saw that with Photos where they're trying to push that forward, integrate it with their other devices, integrate it with the cloud, but also make it a better experience on the Mac. But I'm with you. It is harder and harder to come up with things where you can say, oh, I know that feature that's just sitting out there that I wish the Mac would do. It's a lot harder to think of that now. There's somebody at Apple who's probably paid to sit there and think about it all the time.

And they've probably come up with more ideas than we have. But still, I think it's a really hard problem because there's a barrier beyond which you can't go. You can't be too innovative because then it's not the Mac anymore. Does that make sense? It does. What does it take to go to 11? Well, it's just one louder, isn't it? When you need that extra thing, go over the cliff. You just go one louder.

It's 11. You see what I mean? At this point, you've gone for OS X for so long. You've gone to OS X to the point where it doesn't even make sense to call it OS X anymore. I don't think you need to justify the change to 11. I think it's a branding change. I think what it takes to go to 11 is, unless it's something totally crazy like you can run iOS apps now or something like that.

And every Mac is going to get a touchscreen and you're going to run iOS apps. And I don't think that's going to happen. So if that one happens, then I'll say, look, I didn't say it. I said it wouldn't. I was wrong. I think all it takes, that was what my piece was that I wrote. I think all it takes is a rebrand is to say, look, this is Mac OS and the number doesn't matter, right? It's Mac OS, Big Sur or whatever it is. And it's version 11.0, but the number no longer is part of the branding. Now that Windows 10 is apparently going to be here forever, because Microsoft may never, they're going to do with Windows what Apple did with the Mac 15 years ago and just say,

it's 10. 10's a good number. We're going to stick with 10 for a long time. Maybe it's time for Apple to just make it not about the number. I feel like that X branding is kind of old. So just say it's time for Apple to just make it not about the number I feel like that X branding is kind of old so just say it's macOS I think that's what it would take is just saying look we're not going to call it OS X anymore we're going to call it macOS we have iOS we have macOS those are our two operating systems and this is you know and this is Big Sur or whatever it is it didn't really feel to me like Yosemite was the time to do it like the the change was big enough like i mean you know if you look at previous versions if you look at mavericks and you go back to leopard and lion it doesn't look massively different like it's just different enough like everything's still there where it was you know but it just looks different but i feel like considering how long it had been like small changes, this is the biggest UI change that there's been for a long time.

I wonder why they didn't do it then, especially because this was 10.10, which is just like so crazy. We don't – there are a lot of mysteries of Apple OS marketing. This is another thing I mentioned in that story is I wonder about why they changed the name from Mac OS X to OS X and dropped the Mac from it. I'm unclear whether they felt like some lawyer said, well, they may affect your trademark or whether there was a software executive who said, this is all part of our grand plan that we're going to unify the operating systems. But that software executive may be financing Broadway shows instead now. I don't know. And so there are great mysteries about why Apple has done what it's done in the past.

And maybe they just weren't ready to make that change. But I agree. It is sort of increasingly ludicrous that this thing is named 10.11, 10.12. But I agree, it is sort of increasingly ludicrous that this thing is named 10.11, 10.12. On the other hand, maybe it doesn't matter because it's just software versioning. It's not a decimal. It's just software versioning. It could go 10.90 and nobody would care.

But I just don't understand why 10 is a thing that needs to be a marketing point with a big X. It feels very last decade, maybe even very 20th century. It's totally extreme operating system. It made a lot of sense in 2000. I'm not sure it makes sense in 2015. And since what Apple has is two platforms. They have the iPhone and pad platform, and they've got the MacBook, iMac, MacBook Pro, Mac Pro.

They've got the Mac platform. Calling it iOS and macOS, if you're not going to merge them together, seems to be a much better approach. And you get out from under the X. I agree with that. And you just go back to Mac. So I'm a real believer in that. I don't know if they'll ever do that. And they're probably, if anybody at Apple is listening to me, they're probably like, yeah, that guy has no idea what he's talking about because something that we don't see. But I would just, I think 10 just needs to come out of the equation and just let's not and then you can increment it to 11 if you want to and nobody cares i do think it's yeah i i get what you mean about like the version numbering like you know it is

just version numbering but i think version numbering is a bit more awkward when the name of your product is also a number. I agree. OS 10 10.10 is crazy. If it was called OS X, if that was how it was said, it would be easier to accept the numbers, I think. Right, but it's not. It's OS 10. And so the name of the product is OS 10 10.10, unless you use the marketing name, which is Yosemite, which is what we all should do. Only computer nerds really care about the version number, except when you go to the About box and you're doing tech support and you say, what version do you have? And it says, well, I have Yosemite. No, I need the version number.

And it's like, well, it's 10.10.2. Like, oh, well, you need to update to 10.10.3 because X. So, or 10. How's that pronounced? How's that letter pronounced? So I don't know. It, or 10. How's that pronounced? How's that letter pronounced? So I don't know. It's still there. You can't make it disappear,

even though normal people don't care about it. It still has to be there for tech support and things like that. But it shouldn't matter. I just think, yeah, it could go on forever and I'd be okay with it. But I just think that the X10 branding is just kind of old and unnecessary.

And the Mac is what it is. It's all about the Mac. I think OS X was a name when they stripped the Mac out of it, when they were visualizing that other devices that weren't Macs would run OS X. But that's not like Apple TV ran OS X, and it really was based on the Mac version originally until they did the new generation little black box that ran on a version of iOS. I just feel like you got watchOS, you got iOS, you got macOS.

Just call it what it is. There's never going to be another device that isn't a Mac that runs macOS. So just call it that. I have one more question and then I want to do a quick fly around with you. All right. So what are your review plans for OS X currently? What do you think you will want to do a quick fly around with you. Alright. So what are your review plans for OS X currently? What do you think you will want to do with that? Because there is

a big hole to fill. Yeah, I'm still thinking about it. I mean, in the past what I've written is the 3 or 4 thousand word review of OS X and I'm open to that. At one point I talked to Susie at Macworld about the possibility of me just writing that again except this time it would be something they would pay me for, as opposed to it being part of my job as a salaried employee.

So that might happen. And the Macworld review in the four or five thousand word, that's what I call that. That's the sweet spot where there'll be a group of people who think that's way too many words to spend on an operating system. And there'll be another group of people who think it's way too few words. But I think that there's also a group of people where it's like, yeah, that's about right. I don't need to read. For some people, they don't need to read 25,000 words about the operating system. 5,000 will do. It's a nice read.

It's substantial. But it's not kind of just everything but the kitchen sink and, oh, there's the kitchen sink too kind of review, which is the Syracusian length. I've also thought about doing something longer. There is a hole to fill with John Syracuse gone. I've thought about writing something at length and posting it on six colors or making an ebook or both. And that's possible. In the past two, Dan Morin has reviewed iOS for Macworld and you know I got to talk to Dan about how he wants to do that Dan Dan too is you know in the in the market for freelance writing but you know he and I may try to collaborate on some stuff in that area so nothing is certain yet

I certainly will review it somewhere in some form but I think that I think that after we see the announcements I'll have a better idea of of where I might do it and it's possible that Adam and Tanya Angst will come to me and say, we want you to do something as a take control book. And I would be open to that too. So I'm just kind of waiting to see what the announcements are, what the scope is, and what my options are. If Susie comes to me and says, we really want you to do it for Macworld, then maybe I'll certainly have to make a decision

at that point of if I want to do that or not but she may not ask so there'll be something I will definitely be writing something with thousands of words about OS X assuming that there is a release I will definitely do that So I want to do rapid fire quick predictions with you all right so i want to

see where jason snell's head is right now going into wwdc so basically i've i've got a bunch of little uh like little headings here and i want to see what you think about each so this is kind of what are we going to see what do you think are the main things we're going to see in iOS? iOS, San Francisco font, and I'm going to say lock screen complications, a la Apple Watch. And beyond that, I don't know, improvements to extensions, improvements to the stuff that was introduced last year.

You know, extending the functionality of extensions and the Today View, maybe getting rid of the concept of the Today View in Notification Center and calling it, you know, calling it something else because it's more about today than it is about notifications at this point. Overhaul of Notification Center, I'll put on that list too, because I think with the Apple Watch here, notifications in general could probably be handled better and be more granular. And I think Notification Center

has gotten kind of too big to be managed right now. Do you think we're going to see any specific improvements to the iPad? My gut feeling, the old Apple, I would say no, absolutely not, because if they've got a new iPad coming, they'll announce those improvements then. My gut feeling now is they may announce that iOS 9 on the iPad has split screen or some other kind of weird format like that in order to, and it works on the current iPads.

You could totally build it for the current iPads, and everybody will be like, this seems somewhat impractical for the current iPads because the story is that there will be a big iPad that will also be out. Something like that could totally happen. So I'd say probably not, but it's possible that you might see something that is kind of applicable to the current iPads, but also points the way toward developments in the iPad world in the fall.

But I'd say the old Apple would probably have held off and maybe been coy in saying, we've added some new behaviors like they did with the iPhone 6, where it's like, well, you know, dynamic app design and larger screen sizes, not that there are any larger screen sizes coming. You usually see hints of that. I think we'll see hints of what's going to happen with the iPad, assuming something is. But, you know, newfangled Apple might just go out and say, this is a feature we're going to add, and not pre-announce the hardware, but, you know, let us all kind of go, ah, I see what they're doing there. We'll see home kit yes lots home kit was essentially a pre-announcement they needed a they needed a year to prime the pump

um i wrote about that for for uh i'm more a week or two ago um it's taken a year they'll probably have the first home kit products that are shipping to talk about at wwdc because they're supposed to start really shipping in june took a year for home kit stuff to ship so i think they will tell the home kit story and that there will be more home kit demos whether it's apps that are built around home kit or whether it's a home app in ios 9 but yes for sure home kit's going to be a thing that they're going to talk about because it's really, you know, it's the missed promise of last year's keynote where they had to announce it because they needed to get the ball rolling, but it's taken a year for that ball to

start rolling. WatchOS. Yes, absolutely. I think we're going to get a WatchOS 2.0 announcement or 1.5 or whatever they want to call it. Again, version number two cares. But I think there'll be a new watchOS beta that'll call it 2.0 or not. But yes, I think the app development story that has been promised for a long time about the Apple Watch, we'll hear about it at WWDC. Will we hear or see more about Swift at WWDC? I think we will hear more about Swift. It may or may not be in the keynote. They may mention, since it's a developer keynote, they'll probably mention Swift in the keynote and say, and we've, you know, we've done a lot more and there's a new spec and it's great and everybody loves it. And you can find out more in a later session. I doubt we will go into a lot of detail about Swift at the keynote. I could be wrong,

but I doubt it. But I do think they'll mention it because it'll give opportunity for developers to cheer about Swift and for them to thank the developers for their interest in Swift and, and do a very brief sort of like, here's where we're going with Swift. We're adding all these new things, find out about it later. And then,

you know, the, the nitty gritty will happen outside the keynote where they'll, they'll, I would imagine have a lot more about like what they've learned and, and any changes that they're making to the, to the format. Carplay. I'm on the format. CarPlay.

I'm on the fence about that one. Yes, I think it has to be because iOS 9 will have to have improvements to CarPlay because CarPlay desperately needs improvements. And there have been some rumors about them updating CarPlay to have Bluetooth and not just by wire support and all of that. So I think there'll be CarPlay. Will it be in a keynote?

I don't know. It depends on how good they feel about it. Having tested CarPlay, I don't think the current version is anything Apple would be proud about, but maybe a new version is. Apple TV? I hope so. I hope this is when we get the new hardware and developer and you know developer story

for Apple TV all the rumors say that that may actually happen I will continue to hope as I have for the last three years that that will finally happen will we see announcements of a music streaming service uh I don't know heavily rumored heavily rumored even as we're recording today the

verge is posting new reports apparently yeah you know if they're going to integrate it into the operating system then this would be the time to to announce it i could also see them yeah it's probably going to be something where they announce that it's happening and then but it's going to launch later but who knows they could they could just release it on ios 8 uh with an update as well the rumor is released announced now releasing in a few weeks time yeah that's that's the kind of the rumors who am i to deny the rumor i mean it wouldn't they don't i don't feel like they have to do it other than the fact that the clock has been ticking for so long since the Beats acquisition. Hey, before that.

It would be great to see. And actually, to go back to Mac predictions and what's going on with OS X, a streaming service app or better streaming service integration in iTunes, this might be a good opportunity to revamp itunes too as a part of this don't dangle that dream in front of me jason i know i know um will we see any hardware announcements at wwdc this year i'm gonna say yes because i think the

apple tv thing's gonna happen it's also possible that they might you know mention a mac pro update or something like that that those things can can happen too but i i think if if we're banking on this apple tv thing finally happening um because there's a developer story around it then that would be that seems to me to be the most likely in terms of apple hardware there will probably be some like home kit announcements and support for CarPlay announcements, but that's not what we're really talking about. Are we going to see anybody new on stage, do you think? I hope so. I hope so. Apple's keynotes have been largely a parade of middle-aged white men for the past forever. Which I meant to say earlier, hand it to Google.

forever. Which I meant to say earlier, hand it to Google. Yeah, Google, you know, Google, Google has, has diversity in their ranks and diversity on their stage. I don't know enough about Apple to know how diverse their ranks are. I know enough of what I've seen on stage to see that there's not a lot of diversity on the stage. And although I appreciate them bringing Christy Turlington on stage last time, she doesn't work at Apple. And although she does admirable charity work now, she's famous because she's a supermodel or was a supermodel. Apple's got to do better. Now, I think that the representation in WWDC panels and events, the presentations, has actually been much better. I've seen more racial diversity and gender diversity at WWDC. So those people are there, at least some of those people are there. It would be nice to see more diversity on the stage. And I know we've got our cast of characters that are the Apple executives,

but I think they need to up their game there. Any chance that we will see the chief design officer? No. You still think no? It seems that Johnny and Angela Ahrens don't want to be on stage. That's my guess. It seems to me.

There was part of me that was wondering, like, you know, that was maybe one of Tim's demands. I wonder if Angela Ahrens, you know, I'd like to see her and maybe she just does not do stage presentations, but they always do the CEO does the retail update. And that would be a really easy way to get to say, I want to introduce Angela Ahrens is going to tell you about what we're doing in retail. That, you know, that would be a pretty good win right there if they would do that. Because that's a prominent woman executive on the management team at Apple. The only.

Yeah, right? But she's got things to talk about. And in fact, I think she's doing a really good job. I know we've run long with this show, but I went to the Apple store yesterday because my wife, it's been two years since she bought her iPhone 5, so she got an iPhone 6. It's very exciting. Mike was wrong.

I actually tried to push her to the iPhone 6 Plus, Mike. I said, you know, you keep it in your purse most of the time, and then when you take it out, you're going to have the bigger screen and all of that. And she held that iPhone 6 Plus, and she was like, yeah, no. It's too late real virtues of the six no i was in there for you i was i was i was sort of playing the part of mike and explaining the virtues of the iphone 6 plus uh but anyway we went and it was a really great experience the the only things that were bad about it were involving the carrier, which is that carrier stuff in the U.S. is a complete mess. AT&T is trying to move to a little more sane approach where they have these plans that are explicitly, basically, financing plans for your phone subsidy. Instead of it being hidden in your bill,

they just say, look, for two years, you pay pay off your phone and then it's paid off and you stop paying. That's a move forward, but we still had a moment where I would have rather just paid the full price unsubsidized for the phone, but it was unclear to me whether our plan would actually go down if we did that, or whether they'd keep charging us the rate as if we were paying a subsidy, which would totally be like AT&T to do. And the guy, at one point, the guy at the Apple store was like, yeah, that's complicated enough that you need to talk to AT&T about. I can't answer that. But he answered so many questions. I was very impressed because I feel like the last couple of years at the Apple store with Ron Johnson gone, whether that was connected or not, that service has declined where it's like, it's harder to get a person.

It's harder to get straight answers. You have to, you have to wait. There's confusion. And with the Apple Watch stuff, and then with this experience upgrading her phone, I felt like my last two experiences at the Apple store have been really good. And I wonder if this is Angela Ahrens at work, kind of like fixing some stuff that was drifting in the Apple retail experience. I don't know. I only have those two anecdotes, but they've both been very good interactions with Apple Store employees. And we talked to the guy,

he walked us through, he asked us what model we wanted, that got radioed to the back. He walked us through everything else we needed to know. Guy appears with a phone from the back and says, here's your phone. Set it up. It was, yeah, I was very impressed. And I've had much less impressive interactions the last couple of years in the Apple store, but not my last few. Time for Ask Upgrade? I think it is. Jason, who brings Ask Upgrade to us this week? for Ask Upgrade? I think it is. Jason, who brings Ask Upgrade to us this week? Ask Upgrade is brought to us as usual, I think at this point, by our good friends at MailRoute. MailRoute is a service. I've talked about them many times before. They live in the cloud. They're like cloud people. They actually live in the cloud. They're made of clouds. And this is what they do. They intercept,

live in the cloud they're made of clouds and this is what they do they intercept imagine okay metaphor time Mike you ready ready mail route is a cloud but it's a defensive cloud it it it there are there are things hurling from outer space at you that is your email and some of it is good and some of it is bad they're the ones that land with a parachute and you get them you go yeah I got email and then the ones that come in like a meteorite and they hit you and it's spam. You're like, ow, ow, spam. I hate spam. Well, the mail route is that protective layer.

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regular sport jason or the space gray black apple watch so i um so i got the regular sport with a green man on day one because my friend sean had an extra basically and let me buy it from him and then i ordered the night of the ordering a the space gray sport with which comes with the black sport band um and that that came a couple weeks ago so the answer is um i kept the space gray and i sold the uh the original green bandit Sport on to your compatriot Brad of the Pin Addict, Mike. Yeah, he finally got an Apple Watch, which I'm happy about. He has my old Apple Watch. That Apple Watch is on its third owner. And he's liking the Green Band.

I like the Space Gray. For me, I wanted a leather band, and I actually pre-ordered the leather classic leather classic buckle and when i got that although the lugs don't match much to steven hackett's chagrin he hates the fact that the lugs don't match and would never be seen wearing such a thing and i'm wearing it right now um although i don't love that the the the lugs don't match the body i wanted that black leather watch and or watch band and it looks better in my opinion with the space gray than with the the silvery sport because the silvery sports got the black the black face and then it's got the silver body and then you've got a black band on it and this is why it doesn't come with a black band and you get this really weird two-tone effect where it's

like dark light dark that is not that is not so great whereas the the black leather band and the black body and the black watch face all go together even if there's a little bit of a stainless steel highlight there too so you know i'm looking forward to maybe a third party that'll let me put a leather watch band on color matched space gray lugs but until then i'm i'm i'm pretty happy with the space gray and and the black sport band is nice too and i use that sometimes too so the next yeah the next question comes from craig um now that summer's coming do you guys use any grilling or seasonal apps for summer? Grilling and seasonal apps. Well, I will say the thing I use the most when grilling is Siri.

And now I use it on my Apple Watch, which is setting timers. So I'll go put meat on and I'll say set a timer for seven minutes. And I do that a lot. So that's my number one thing is not even an app. It's just to use Siri. I think that's the thing I use Siri for the most is setting a timer. Mike, do you have any grilling slash seasonal apps? I don't have any grilling apps. I can't think of anything that's like that I think, oh, summertime, time to use the X app.

You know, I don't really think of anything like that. No, I, yeah, I agree. I don't, think of anything like that I agree I move apps away I make sure the Major League Baseball app is installed and I make sure that all of the dark sky and the related apps go away because it doesn't rain although it's raining today

it generally doesn't rain in the summer in the Bay Area and they do play baseball in the summer so that's the difference there but I don't have any grilling seasonal apps of any kind. And most of my recipes that I keep on my iPad in paprika are baking, not outdoor stuff. Next one comes from Andrew.

How do you feel about the lack of a Nest app for the Apple Watch? Are we seeing a strategy tax here? I don't think so. Google's got like 50 apps, but they haven't really built a lot of Apple Watch apps yet. I'm sure they'll get there, but there are so many Google apps out there. Google supports the platform. I don't think this is one of those cases where Google is withholding integration with Apple Watch. They just may be a little bit slow.

update for the iPhone 6. They were just languishing around for a long time with not updated UI elements. They just wait. I actually don't know if they have any

watch apps at all. I think that they don't have any. And I'm wondering if they're waiting for native. It's possible. They may have said, look, let's just wait until we can do something even more cool. But I have no doubt that they'll do them

because there are, like I said, Derek Walter wrote that piece on Six Colors last week about being an Android user who has moved back to iOS. And we talked about it when we were talking about Google last week. There are more than 50, I believe, Google apps for iOS. And iOS was prominently mentioned. If you didn't watch the Google I.O. keynote, Google's goal is to be everywhere, not just to promote Google services. So, well, everywhere except Windows Phone.

They don't care. But iOS and Android, iOS was mentioned on stage many, many, many times at Google I.O. Google wants to be your pal on iOS. They do. And so I have no doubt that there will be good Google Apps integration with the watch eventually. But it may take them a little while. I think Microsoft's only got integration for PowerPoint and OneNote right now. So Microsoft's kind of ahead of the game there.

Sadia in the chat just pointed me to Google News. It is updated. Google News updated for Apple Watch see so it has begun and that'll keep happening also another piece of real time follow up the Wall Street Journal is reporting that Microsoft bought

Wunderlist yeah in Berlin which is the maker of Wunderlist because I know that's follow up to what we mentioned earlier but also the idea of wanting to be i know that's that's follow-up to what you know we mentioned them earlier but also in the idea of wanting to be everywhere microsoft is is getting that hunger yeah yeah and they're and they're picking up um they're picking up features that you know tools like they did with with was it sunrise they bought uh they bought a compli the which is known to outlook they bought sunrise uh the application, and now potentially they're buying Wunderlist.

So they are building a very compelling suite of applications. And that, again, is being everywhere. I mean, the funny thing about Google and Microsoft is the success of iOS has meant that Google and Microsoft want to be on iOS, and they want to be good on iOS. And I would actually argue that they are both good on iOS. Yeah, but you can be even better if you buy up really interesting companies that are doing this completely. Yeah, I mean, well, the Sunrise, that calendar keyboard thing that they did, it's just, it's crazy, but it's really innovative and interesting. And buying Wunderlist... I really wish that was a separate app, though.

I agree. Although the challenge is that it would just be a standalone keyboard app that says you should install this as a keyboard because keyboards have to be apps it doesn't have to be a keyboard though like the keyboard ui well that's true it does it could just be an app like it doesn't have to be a keyboard well but the idea the idea there is that you're responding to email and you're saying when are you free and you go boop boop boop boop and you puts it in an email and you send it but yeah i don't know anyway it's it's there's some interesting stuff going on with google and and microsoft these days and i met the i met some of the people at uh six wunderkinder wunderkinder sex wunderkinder there you go all right let's just do that in berlin i saw them um and i actually met uh they there is a pro i don't know if people know that that prominent person works for Wunderlist,

but there's a prominent person in our business who moved to Berlin. And well, I mean, so James Duncan Davidson, who used to live in Portland. He is like, he's open with that. Okay. Yeah. So he's working there in Berlin. So I think the question is, are they going to stay in Berlin? Are they going to move them to Seattle? What's going to happen with that? And what's their philosophy there?

But I think it's cool. That's an interesting group of developers. It's a cool development. What else do we have on AskUpgrade? Have we reached the foretold Apple Watch band question? Yes, from Gabriel. Gabriel asks, for a budget budget conscious office dweller where do you stand on wearing a color watch

sport with a suit? I think it's fine, I think if you're going to wear a suit day in and day out you might want to consider the black or white straps as well as a color so you can be, you know, plain but I like the colors did we consult with

matt alexander we should do that we should see what matt says yeah we should see what matt says i i i think keeping it monochrome is a is is a is a good idea um and uh like i said i like the having seen people i've seen stylish people, dressed up people, I think the stainless model looks great. It does. If you are budget conscious, I think you can get away with it. But yeah, I think the black or white straps, that's good advice. I've seen them more. I think Matt has a stainless one.

I saw him last week and it looks really nice. I still maintain that it's not the one for me i think it looks fantastic it's just not what i want it's not what i want either well i would say and this is to steven hackett horror again is you could also get something you could get a leather loop maybe which doesn't have the lug problem i think oh i'm gonna get the millenials like i'm going i'm going all in yeah so i think there are options there if you want to if you want to dress up that watch too to make it work with a suit, even if it's not a perfect match, to make it look nicer. But black sport band would be a thing you could do that would be pretty subtle. So mine came with the blue, and I've been keeping my eye on the store, so now I want to get a black sport band.

So I was in town today, and I went into the Regent Street Apple store store and they had straps well we call them straps here by the way and they're actually called by apple here they're called straps not bands because that's just the yeah it's the correct vernacular all right um and i ended up leaving the apple store with two and neither of them were black wow they didn't have the black in stock there i bought the white band the white sport band and the green sport band ah and i i'm not sure if i'm going to keep them both uh but i bought them both because i want to try them and then maybe i'll return them and i want to see what my girlfriend says i don't love the white one i kind of love the green one when i had the green one that that's a that's a fun that's a fun color i like i have the blue and having the green feels good i think i will keep the white though i like the way

the white looks uh edina has the white she has white with hers and it looks i think it always looks really really fresh it's good for summer yeah you can have a pims cup and and with your white white band on definitely strap white strap pims cup white strap so do you want to go for the last one from uh from jason jason martin well jason martin um was asking us about international travel um because he's going to italy and uh they have uh so number one question is we both have iphone 5s on verizon my understanding is unlocking a verizon phone is not necessary because they will work with foreign sim cards out of the box. That is my understanding, too, that you don't actually have to unlock them. You can just pop a foreign SIM in and they'll work because Verizon's technology doesn't use a SIM.

And you can just pop in a SIM on the 5S, and that's what they call the roaming SIM. And when you're in a foreign country where you don't have Verizon's frequencies, it uses the SIM card. My simple understanding of this is the network is not locking the handset. They're locking the handset to a network. And by network, I mean like a band type. And because Verizon is CDMA, not GSM, where practically the rest of basically everywhere else in the world uses gsm except like south korea or something yeah if you use cdma you'll be fine to use a gsm network elsewhere because verizon have only locked you to a cdm cdma band that's my exactly so you should be able to do

that which is great that's the great advantage of international travel with a verizon iphone is you can do that and uh then he asked best procedure of getting Italian SIM card. I don't have an answer to this. He asked about pre-ordering and all that. Generally, what I've done is I've just gone in country and there are kiosks or stores where you can go in. You can do some research beforehand about what the best deals are. Maybe ask your Twitter followers, see if there's an Italian Twitter follower who can help you out. But I think you'll be able to get something in country when you get there. And maybe even they're starting to have them in airports, just kiosks in airports where you can go and pay some money and pay a few euro and get a SIM card

and pop it in. That's what I did when I was in Heathrow is I paid 15 pounds or something and I got a three SIM. That was great. i wanted to ask you mike what's your sim strategy because you're coming to wwdc what do you do so every single time that i come um i end up buying a sim card this time i am i will find a way to keep the SIM cards and to keep doing this every single time. So I am going to grab a... I'm going to Memphis for a couple of days. So I'm going to grab a T-Mobile SIM when I'm in Memphis. And that's what I'll use.

My iPhone is unlocked now after I had a whole big problem with it a couple of months ago. It's fully unlocked. So I will be just throwing a T-Mobile sim in and I go with T-Mobile because they give they're the easiest to get in and out of the store with, they give good

data bundles for a decent price and I just go with that it works fine for me I want someone that's going to let me tether you know, I just want to be able to do everything and I just want a big chunk of data and just go crazy with it that's what I'm going to be doing this time and and I just want a big chunk of data and just go crazy with it. That's what I'm going to be doing this time

and I'll be keeping it for next time, for sure. So I keep having to buy them every year. It's frustrating. Yeah. So I'm looking, there was a company, right, that I had seen previously on the talk show called Symporium. They were a sponsor a long, long time ago and i'm trying to use their website

right now and it's currently not loading but i i want to just i want to see before we close out today to see if they still exist because it was a company that you could pre-order a sim card and it would be like you could order it to your hotel or whatever. It's not looking good. They may be dead. I think they're dead. Yeah, I think they're dead. Oh, well.

So there you go. There is not a market for that. There we go. No, they've realized international travel is a thing and are figuring it out. It's become every time I've gone to Europe, it's been easier to get online. And, you know, it was first it was I had to track down a store somewhere and figure out the best one and all of that. And then the next one, there were stores all around me. And the next time I didn't even need to go to a store because it was at the baggage claim so it's there they know there's a market for americans to buy sim cards when they're traveling abroad um and and other people from

other places that don't have also have onerous roaming fees and uh so it's a thing yeah it's not a big deal i think that's it for this week i think so big show but So next week we'll be in person again, somewhere in San Francisco, at the Relay Suites. Yep. And we will do a special post-keynote upgrade sometime. And I'm looking forward to it. It'll be nice to have our third in-person upgrade at the next week. At such an occasion.

So you can look out for that on Monday, as always, next week. So we'll be first to the podcast presses, as it were, with Upgrade. So we'll be first to the podcast presses, as it were, with Upgrade. So you can look forward to that. I want to thank our sponsors again for this week's episode for helping us out.

That is lynda.com, igloo, and mailroute. If you'd like to find us online, there's a couple of ways you can do that. You can find Jason's work primarily at sixcolors.com and he has links to lots of the other stuff that he does there. And you should also go and check out theincomparable.com as well for Jason's great cavalcade of podcasts

you can find those out there for all of your pop culture desires and Jason is at jsnell on twitter and I am at imyke keep it locked to relay.fm we've got some exciting stuff coming this week which I think that you're going to be very excited about so you should keep it checked there because we've got some exciting stuff coming this week, which I think that you're going to be very excited about. So you should keep it checked

there because we've got some stuff that we're working on. And we'll be back next week live and in person from San Francisco. Thank you so much for listening. Say goodbye, Jason Snow. Goodbye, everybody.