Upgrade - 397: My Favorite Amount of Transistors

Episode Date: March 8, 2022

It's not every day that Apple introduces an entirely new Mac line. But on March 8, that's exactly what happened. Jason, Myke, and special guest Stephen Hackett discuss the new Mac Studio and Studio Display, along with the updated iPad Air and iPhone SE.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 397 today's show is brought to you by electric text expander capital one and member four my name is mike hurley and i'm joined by jason snell hi jason snell hi mike hurley it's just you and me again. Just you and me. No, that's a lie because howdy, y'all. I'm in Memphis, Tennessee, and across the table from me, the RelayFM co-founder, host of Connected and Mac Power Users,

Mr. Stephen Hackett. Hi, Stephen. Hello, Upgradians. We realized today, Stephen and I, that we have not seen an Apple event in person together since... 2017. 2017. 2017.

Because we only ever were hanging out together for WWDCs. And for a couple, I think one Steven missed. Yeah, 2018 we had a death in the family and I missed the keynote and I came out just to do the live show. And then 2019 I had a press badge. Yeah. Yeah. I touched the face of Tim Cook as he released the mac pro and steven's

never allowed to go back and today i touched my apple tv remote as i threw it in the river as my mac pro was obsoleted obsoleted and the value was drained out of it so we just saw the hey just to be clear your mac pro they promised would be updated with a new model, whereas my beloved large iMac was implied to have been disappeared. So, you know, there's levels here is what I'm saying. I definitely want to get to that when we get to that, because that was a very interesting thing. All right. But Jason, I do have a hashtag snow talk question for you before we get started today. Good. Do you think we made a good decision by drafting early?

We made the best decision. This is just your opportunity for us to take a victory lap about the fact that on uh on monday we made the decision to draft even though we didn't know there was going to be an event for sure on tuesday they didn't announce an event and we looked at each other like well let's see what happens and then on wednesday they announced the event and we got to do some uh do some uh some victory laps of our own in our own homes yep good decision however though that's decision i don't know if like if we would have drafted late if it would have made much of a difference for what happened but we can go through the results we didn't get any mac pics at all yeah late in the week there were more information there was more information that would have allowed us to be more accurate,

but I think it's more fun for us to just be dead wrong in public. I think that's better because we, yes, the Mac picks is just a river of blood. It's all Mac mini and MacBook pro. So let's do the draft results. So, um,

this one, this one hurts Jason. I'm not going to lie. Yeah yeah i'm hurt by this one i was convinced that i beat you this is it's the tightest possible oh yeah it it did and in the end it came down to the literally the last seconds of the video this one yeah maybe hurts more than any in a long time because i was convinced i had one and then they pulled out and showed the rainbow stage and you screamed in terror i well i actually think i said something that i can't say on the show that's how that's how i felt when john turnus appeared by the way it was like no no no no no we don't want to see

him get him out that one felt like a lock though for me like yeah yeah yeah i wish i was kicking myself because i should have picked the chip lab like i always do or johnny shruji like i always do but didn't do it well it wasn't that set really that there was going to be new chips. Like I don't think that we had necessarily considered. Yeah, but he had like a transparent wall with like an airtight lab in case, I don't know, some of the chips escape into the air. They'll watch out. I don't know what was going on there.

But yeah, so we totally blew that. The whole Mac section was wrong. Everything. Because there was no MacBook Pro. There was no Mac Mini. Right. Our iPhone and iPad picks were okay. You got four and I got three.

So that puts you ahead because you got everything right in this category. New iPhone SE keeps the same design. I joked about it because on Connected you argued that any minor change was a different design, which is wrong, by the way. No, that's correct. But it's the same familiar SE. The new iPad Air supports 5G. The new iPad Air gets center stage,

and the new iPhone SE has Touch ID. It does. It has the home button. The home button lives. I got new iPhone SE announced and supports 5G, correct. New iPad Air keeps the same design. I got correct. And I said, of course, that the SE would not look like the previous SE, and it does.

So I got that wrong. So it was 4.3, and that took us to the other picks. And the other picks, there was one, I got the first one and the last one. Because the event takes place on March 8th, was one of my picks. It is indeed March 8th today. It is, last time I checked. You picked Tim Cook Presents from Outside Apple Park,

which he did not do. Rough. Yeah, that was a tough one. I liked that pick too. John Ternus Presents a Segment. You got that right. And then my second other pick was The Rainbow Stage is Shown,

which it was not shown until the final pullback at the very end of the event at which point i cashed in my uh fifth point which let it all come down believe it or not to the colors are draft yeah which is still like i'm fine with the way the colors are draft is going although i'm still a bit like probably just because i'm fine with the way the colors are draft is going although i'm still a bit like probably just because i'm hurt because i lost i do have some like questions over colors of silver in the studio lines when they they don't offer colors but i'm not gonna fight this point they call it silver or actually more to the point in the press release they say that there are silver

and black trackpad and keyboard accessories available that match and that i think is a fairly strong signal that they consider them to be silver because the silver matches the thing you know the thing the other products you see their color names there's no color names on the product pages that's all i'm gonna say it's the only thing i'm pointing to the crowd you gotta follow the evidence to the accessories which are color matched and are named so i have some real-time follow-up on the product pages. That's all I'm going to say. It's the only thing I'm pointing to the crowd. You've got to follow the evidence to the accessories which are color matched and are named. I have some real-time

follow-up. On the technical spec page for the Mac Studio, under finish, it says one word, silver. That will work for me. Silver, there you go.

That will work for me. So the colors are draft, which is silly, but, and our thing is that, you know, there was a new blue, but it wasn't a deep blue C, and they went with some that, you know, there was a new blue, but not, it wasn't a deep blue sea.

And they went with, they went with some different, uh, uh, a forest green or whatever it is, a Sierra green. I don't even know what, it doesn't matter. We didn't pick those. Alpine green. Alpine green. Right. Oh yes. The Alps.

Um, product red iPhone SE. And that was one of yours. And a space gray iPad Air. And that was one of yours. So you got two points in the colored czar draft i uh chose green and indeed we got a green iphone 13 good call on that jason good call on that yeah i was just feeling like spring is in the air i will say when they started showing because if you remember my sec my other pick for my like uh we came up with our name right i if you remember i was arguing between spring yellow and safari green and when they showed off the alpine green there was a lot of like animal stuff

i'm like oh my god if they call this safari green i quit forever i'm done yeah well it was close it was a close one uh so that all brought it down to um pick of silver, a boring pick. And by the way, a lot of starlight and some moonlight or midnight or whatever. But a lot of starlight. Starlight is happening, people. But the Mac Studio and the Studio Display are both new products. And they both come in silver, which by my account gives me a 3-2 advantage in the colors are draft yeah which pushes me ahead because you won the over under on the length

it was just under that was even worse jason i won the tiebreaker as well you know this is like god those colors just totally screwed me i hate the colors are is what i've decided for the time being that's fair until the colors are blesses me with a point I hate the color czar is what I've decided for the time being. That's fair. Until the color czar blesses me with a point, I hate the color czar. All right. Congratulations, Jason Snell. You are winning the first draft of the year. I will leave my pennant where it is. Yeah.

Yeah. You continue to be champion. All right. We've got a ton of stuff to talk about today. Let's take our first break and then we can start diving in. I think we might go mostly chronological order today because apple did that for a reason too i think uh this episode of upgrade is brought to you by electric if you're striving to build a small business into an empire you're going to want to hear this because you know that one second you're dreaming up that big idea that's going to

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Just go to electric.ai slash upgradefm to set it up. That is electric.ai slash upgradefm to get your free pair of Beats Solo 3 headphones today for scheduling a meeting. Our thanks to Electric for their support of this show and RelayFM. So, Apple TV Plus was how we started the event. Apple

and Tim, very happy with their content slate. Oh, Jason, did you know that they've received some nominations for some awards? Oh, interesting. For the Academy Award, but also the prestigious BAFTAs. Very prestigious BAFTAs. Yeah, I mean, look, we knew they were going to do this, and if they win any Oscars, oh boy,

they might just do a separate event just to talk about that. They're going to be very excited over there. We've got a trailer of some upcoming projects, and there was some stuff that I hadn't known in there. There was an animated movie that I don't remember hearing much about called Luck. I think this is one of those movies from the studio with John Lasseter at it that they made the deal with. Oh, yeah. Okay.

And I think that's why it says from the mind of Toy Story and whatever is like nobody can change his name. I was thinking, who is that? And that's why they mention it in a very specific way good call jason yeah good call but the big thing is what it is friday night baseball yeah we uh upgradians will know uh and i know steven is really excited about this story right it's baseball yes he loves his baseball he does he loves it so we we've been reporting on the rumors right the rumors that right? The rumors that Apple is in talks. And I think what's funny is nobody broke that the deal was done. There was a

lot of interested bidding on, and instead they just announced done deal, Friday night baseball, which is a very specific kind of package where they're going to pick up two games and they're only going to be on Apple TV. They have some sort of exclusivity window to be, I think we'll get more information about this now that it's public. It's also funny because Major League Baseball is currently locking out its players in any very bitter labor dispute.

And I thought, well, that Apple money is going to come up now. They're going to be like, look, you guys, you owners just made more money selling rights. So pay us. So a little wrinkle to the baseball labor stuff going on but this is apple's first big sports thing and there's going to be more right but we we've been talking for a while now about how they were they were planning on going into live sports and here here we are

just rolled right into apple tv plus too not not a special thing or anything it's just for apple tv plus subscribers because this is not as big as some of the other stuff we've been talking about, right? Where it's like full-on rights or taking the ticket, the NFL ticket. This is like kind of similar-ish. Is this similar-ish to what Amazon's done in the past? I know they've had some games. Was that football games,

not baseball games? Amazon actually has football and they have an exclusive starting next season for Thursday night football for the NFL. And they've got some sports in the UK. I think they've got some Premier League soccer.

And there's other stuff going on. So Amazon's been experimenting in this area for a while. And Facebook has experimented with a little bit, which is kind of weird. But this is Apple's first step into this world. But so what is this Friday Night Baseball? Did somebody have this before? What is this i think this is the remnants part of the remnants of espn's former deal with that with uh with major league baseball

where they had some ability to run games in weeknight time slots okay there was talk about like more slots so i think it's interesting that they focused on the friday night and maybe somebody else is going to buy some of the other slots but i think not 100 on this i think this comes out of espn changing its deal and not paying for some of those weekday weeknight baseball games um they still got their sunday night baseball but they used to have more weeknights and uh i think they dropped them right okay so this seems so this is like two, is it like random games? Like,

are they going to be good games? I think they, well, I mean, I think they'll pick two games every week. I'm also unclear. I assume that what it's going to be is the local announcers doing the games, but they said exclusive. So it's quite a lot of questions here in market or out of market.

So is it exclusive? Like if you, if your local team is normally on a cable channel, but you get picked to be an Apple Friday night game, does that mean your team is not on TV unless you have Apple TV Plus? Maybe, or maybe what it means is it's exclusive nationally. So it'll be on in local markets,

but that Apple will pick it up for everyone else. And then the question also is, are they just picking up the local team's broadcast? Or are they producing their own broadcast for those games? And I don't know. Maybe there's more information that's going to be coming out shortly about that. But right after the event, I don't know those details. But those are the questions to ask about what's coming for that baseball package.

Yeah, I wonder if they're going to do anything like software wise about that so i'm looking at a press release here it's fans in the u.s a live show uh in addition in addition to friday night baseball fans in the u.s will be able to enjoy mlb big inning a live show featuring highlights and look-ins airing every weeknight during the regular season. Yeah, so that's the NFL Red Zone equivalent for baseball. Okay. So they'll have that where you can... It's basically instead of surfing around and watching different games, you tune in this show and they will pop into different games,

which is a different kind of experience. So that's interesting. And then on top of that, they've got their Friday night game game so it's free from local broadcast restrictions it's going to be international so us canada australia brazil japan mexico puerto rico south korea and the uk expanding to additional countries at a later date that's cool there you go a lot with live pre and post game shows available to fans so yeah yeah interesting it'll it'll be this is apple taking their first step into a different world that's not bad at all um so once we moved there was nothing else i was wondering if we were going to get maybe the like classical music service or anything like that

there was no other services stuff i thought we were going to get more services stuff just because of the way that tim started the uh the presentation talking about entertainment and stuff like that, but this was the end of that for now. The iPhone was next. We got green and alpine green, and then the iPhone SE, which is basically exactly what we expected it to be. They've got 5G and stronger glass. That's the A15 Bionic. That's it, right?

I think the A15 is actually the biggest deal here because people who are shopping in that price point for an iPhone, I would imagine the type of people who are going to keep an iPhone for a long time, an A15 is going to have legs on it for a long time. And I think there's a lot of iPhone SEs kicking about, and this seems like a great continuation of that brand into sort of the modern era at least in terms of performance if not the design because the design's the same but again i think people want that it helps keep the price point down so i think it's a very logical step forward for the se

smaller iphone with great value so tim it's the people that like the iphone se jason do you think like this is multiple years now with this one again, right? With the modernization of it now? I think so. I think that's why they make it an iPhone 13, essentially, is because then they can sell this through probably spring of 24-ish, at which point we'll be debating whether they're going to bring back this shape or if it's going to be maybe the mini design that's that coming back at last i don't know but my guess is yeah this is a two or three year thing where they'll let it ride because now it's now it's up to date now it's current and then this has been their mo is they they rev it to something that's modern not something that's lousy and then they just let it sit there for a long time

starting at 429 yeah more expensive than the old model, I believe. Really? I think so. I think that's a little bit more. I think the old one was at $399. My guess is it's that 5G modem. There have been reports that that's the most expensive individual component. Yeah.

So if we solve, if it's $30 more for 5G and we solve for G, G equals $6. $6. Okay. Oh, wow solve for G, G equals $6. Wow. Every G. Or is it that every G, or is G worth $30? 1G is worth 30. Yeah, because we're up to 5 because we came from 4. We didn't go from 0G to this. 0G

to 5G. 5G. Okay. Anything else on the iPhone SE, I mean I don't really have anything to say about it. It's cool if you want it, you know, and like there's people that want it, but it doesn't excite me as a product. And you can have any color you want as long as it's midnight starlight or product red. iPad Air, M1 chip,

super fast compared to the A14 chip. Center stage, we were expecting this, 12 megapixel ultra wide camera, 5G faster USB-C. yeah the it didn't get thunderbolt like the uh like the pro oh yeah so that's still one thing that distinguishes for all those people using thunderbolt with an ipad you still want the ipad pro yeah that well that's that was my feeling at all as somebody who just bought a you know a 12.9 inch m1 ipad pro i had that

moment of like oh you know you have have that kind of envy moment of like, oh, but now there's much, people who only spend 599 can now get an M1 iPad. But then I immediately thought, it's not like I'm using the superpower of the M1 in what I do day to day on my iPad anyway, even when I use it kind of heavily, it's fine. And similar with Thunderbolt, it's like,

all right, I've got it, but I actually don't care.'s it's fine and similar with thunderbolt it's like all right i've got it but i actually don't care uh so that's fine i feel like the real differentiator in the ipad pro right now at least at the 12.9 is that display right it's the it's the the mini led high dynamic range display and all rumors point to the smaller ipad pro getting that too so that's a place where the ipad pro still can lord it over the ipad air also they're doing the same game that they did last time with the ipad air where it's got a low entry price but it's for a 64 gig model that's terrible i was super mad when i saw that yeah and then you got to step it up like way up at which point you're in ipad pro. If you want more storage,

that's frustrating. Yeah. I was hoping that they would, uh, they'd fix that. I bought Mary, my wife, a,

an iPad air when it came out, what, two years ago. I was telling Mike, like she absolutely loves it. She likes the color. She liked that. It's thin and light.

It's fast. And, uh, yeah, I don't see a big reason to upgrade to this if you have an existing iPad air. But if you, if you have one of the older body styles, this seems like maybe the time to jump in. Yeah, 64 gigabytes is $599. 256 gigabytes is $749.

It's just too big. At which point you could go to the 128 iPad Pro for $50 more and get other kind of iPad Pro goodness. At the center stage, that's nice. That's going to be a theme. Everybody gets that 12 megapixel camera in center stage now, apparently. It's everywhere. That's good. It's good. But nothing much there.

I mean, so you're saying about the USB-C to Thunderbolt thing. What's the actual realistic difference? You can plug you can plug in thunderbolt accessories and use that speed of a thunderbolt accessory there's compatibility with thunderbolt and the speed of uh that thunderbolt offers over usb that's right i think there may also be video resolution differences but i'm not sure off the top of my head so i don't i don't in terms of output yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We got, we'll get to it, the standalone display and like the iPad is like, I guess you could probably plug an iPad into it, but whatever. We're not going to talk about it. So, oh well. Are you excited about new iMovie? It's the pro app you've been looking for, right, Jason? That's what you wanted?

Oh, no way. It's kick. I'm kicking myself, not drafting. iMovie is mentioned in the draft this time. Go figure. And then I immediately saw a friend of ours who works in the entertainment industry saying there is literally no aspiring filmmaker who should use iMovie. But it's yay. They threw it in there. Good job. Somebody in the iMovie team is really happy today. They threw it in there. Good job. Somebody in the iMovie team is really happy today. Hey, look, we're speeding through here just like Apple did. There's good reasons. Got a lot of Mac stuff to talk about. Should we take our second break and get to it?

Yeah, let's do it. All right. This episode is also brought to you by our friends at TextExpander. You can keep everything consistent and accurate with TextExpander. In our fast-paced world, things can change constantly, and errors in messaging can have significant consequences. TextExpander lets you make approved messaging available to every single team member instantly with just a few keystrokes, so everyone stays consistent, current, and accurate. With TextExpander, you can get your message right every single time. You can expand content that corrects your spelling, keeps your language consistent with just a few keystrokes. So your team members always know the right message for the right person at the right time without relying on memory or using copy and paste or maybe like some old text document that gets emailed around from person to person.

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right so let's just say we weren't expecting anything today other than, by the draft, boring updates to boring machines. That's kind of what we were really expecting this time last Monday. Which everyone was thinking, oh, we're going to get an update to the MacBook Pro and an update to the Mac Mini, which didn't happen in the event. I don't think anything's on Apple's website.

Things are basically staying as they are for those, which I think actually also makes sense. To the point that the Intel Mac Mini is still for sale. Okay. Interesting. Is the iMac still for sale? No, the 27-inch iMac is completely gone from Apple's website. Okay, we'll get to that shortly. This is, I think I did expect that it's possible we would get a high-end mac mini or a high-end um imac and i did suggest that it was possible we might see the dual um m1 max as a high end configuration there i was sort of like toying with that idea of like it's an almost in almost mac pro but not quite and that's that is what we got but in a new

computer but it this is um the jade 2c die that mark german wrote about like a year ago it's two m1 maxes connected together and that was the bulk of what uh johnny sruji talked about here right which is the idea that they have built uh i love this. It's even more capable than we said. It has a secret hidden feature. I love that. It has a secret. The M1 has a secret. Other than Mark Gurman's reporting, it was a secret.

And the idea is that they directly interconnect so that they can share. They're much faster to share, so it doesn't behave quite like having two chips on a motherboard. It's sort of these two chips that are interconnected together uh and it allows it to be you know that much faster is this the biggest chip do you think i think it will be in the m1 family when john turnus announced they say you know we're adding one more member to the m1 lineup and so my i mean if we're going to go to speculation i would love that for a second it's down the street from Dongletown. Was that a train?

Yeah, it's how you get from Dongletown to Speculation Town. It's actually right across the back pasture from the Rumor Roundup. Okay, well, buckle up, cowboys. So they've said the, I mean, Turner said the Mac Pro is like coming at a later date. He basically winked at the camera. I mean, I loved it. We'll get to that too. There should have been a sound effect.

So I think we can think about this M1 Ultra chip. Where does it leave room for Apple to go faster? And if this is the last M1 we're going to see, maybe the M2 line has the ability to have four of these.

Which, again, Gurman talked about a quad die setup. Yeah, Jade 4C die. That's right. And so maybe this M1 Ultra, like it rounds out the M1 generation and maybe in the fall, we'll start seeing M2 products

with the crowning achievement there being the M2 Ultra and then maybe something even above that. M2 Extreme. M2 Infinite. No, Extreme. I'm calling it now. It's definitely Extreme.

That's my pick. This is a draft for later on. The M2, the big chip draft, we'll call it. But I think, clearly, from the beginning they've had machines like this in mind. I mean, they had that graphic up for a second and it showed, you know, their representation

of the die. The M1 is like a postage stamp. And then you have the M1 is like a postage stamp and then you have the m1 ultra which is an a4 sheet of paper it's like gray's paper size video and it it really spoke to me like they have really planned all this from the beginning to have this extremely scalable infrastructure and design yeah and i think we're you know that's going to pay off with this M1 Ultra. Now, we can get to the product it's in. It comes at a price. But if you need that, it's definitely going to be the best thing going.

Also shows their efficiency in they're making the chips themselves. They're designing their products around these chips. And so you're seeing like, here are all the iPhones. They've got the A15. Here are these ipad pros and the ipad air now we're just going to stick m1s in in them we're going to m1 all the things on the low end and then higher up we can we can scale it up with the with the pro which is basically a bin to max and the max and now the max ultra which is the the you know two wide that

they they have built this whole family and they built their products around it and you can start to see the kind of like the efficiency that they gain from this but um i was really taken by the fact that he said this is uh sort of the last chip in the m1 line because i know that mike and i talked about this last time but one of the possibilities for this event really was let's close out the m1 generation um and then and then the next event presumably will open up the m2 generation and i thought that was interesting that he just came out and said like this is the last essentially one last m1 variant and then we go from here and it's not bad for a first generation right to go all the way

from that little m1 all the way up to the this uh m1 ultra and i think it helps keep you know we talked about this on connected i think the the possible confusion like they have m1 and m2 and they're still obviously going to overlap but i do kind of think like having this pause and and them saying like this is the top m1 you know and and it's the last m1 we're going to see was the strong inference, I think. I think that may help clarify it to people who think about these things in a more serious way than just going into an Apple store and buying whatever the new MacBook Air is, right? Because that's what most people are going to do. And that's what most people should do. But kind of having this line in the sand of like this is the m1

range and now we're gonna probably start back at the beginning with the consumer grade m2 you know maybe this summer or fall yeah there's a lot of huge statistics that like a lot of them are very complicated to me um what apple are calling the technology that they're using to interconnect the two M1 Max chips is called UltraFusion. So that's the brand name that they've given to this. More branding. UltraFusion. UltraFusion.

UltraFusion. And if I wrote this down correctly, that's 2.5 terabytes per second inter-processor bandwidth. Ooh. 114 billion transistors, which is my favorite amount of transistors. And it can do 800 gigabytes per second memory bandwidth.

It has 128 gigabytes of RAM, maximum capability. It is a 20-core CPU with 16 performance cores and four efficiency cores, P and E cores, as we know them on this show. It has a 64-core GPU, 32 neural cores. This is monstrous it's it is and it's and it's a little bit ridiculous and i i'm gonna say okay so we're gonna talk in a moment about the computer that it's in right yeah some of those statistics are worth keeping for that because it's i think it is dependent on its chassis too right to help it

go the speeds that it gets to but so i think the best way to think about it is this is a mac pro chip but we have to redefine what a what a pro mac is now because there's not just the mac pro there's also this new mac studio but it's a mac pro chip and i think it's i Mac Pro chip. And I think it's, I mean, you can tell because the price of the M1 Max configuration is half of the price of the M1 Ultra configuration. It's like the chip, like literally the chip, double the chips, double the price. It's $1,999 versus $3,999 is the starting prices for those two chip configurations. $1,999 is the starting prices for those two chip configurations. So the point I want to make here is it's fun to talk about the ridiculous numbers in the M1 Ultra.

And it is fascinating to see them do what has been rumored for a year, which is this interconnecting two high-end Apple Silicon chips to push it for pro performance. But let's also be clear. This is a Mac Pro style chip in the sense also that it's not necessary it's extra like most mac use even among pros does not require this level of performance this is for the highest end needs and so i would i would bet that most of the mac studios sold will not be configured with the m1 ultra no but it's great that it's there because that's the whole point of having a high end of your architecture is for the people who are the most ravenous, they give me all the GPUs, give me all the cores. I need everything.

I need all the memory bandwidth, everything. They will spend whatever it takes to get it. And so this sets the new high watermark for Mac performance. And that's great. Now, presumably it will be reset by a Mac Pro that probably offers,

you could buy all the way up to four, M2 Extreme or whatever you guys said. Extreme, extreme. But I also, when we get to the computer, I want to say, you know, don't over focus on the M1 Ultra because remember

when the MacBook Pro came out with the M1 Max and we were like, whoa, that's a lot. Well, that's the base model of the of this new computer that came out today and most people will not be using the m1 ultra even because it's just it's more it's more performance than almost any job needs but for the people but it is important to offer something all the way up there because there are people for whom money is no object. They just want performance and this thing will give it to them. Yeah. A couple of things came to mind as you were

speaking. First of all, there's a world where the Mac Studio could have been the M1 Pro and M1 Max, but I think they want an Apple Silicon chip out there that can meet the needs of those very specific workloads, like you said. But the other thing that I picked up in the keynote was, you know, let's rewind the clock a little bit. When Apple switched to Apple Silicon, heck, when they switched to Intel, a lot of performance per watt, energy savings, you know, low temperature, all that sort of conversation. And when they were introducing the M1 Ultra, I felt like they sort of, they're like, okay, in most of the machines, performance per watt is really important.

But in this machine, it's not as important. If you just look at the core counts, the 20 core M1 Ultra is 16P14E or 4E, excuse me, just little four little high efficiency chips there that i'm sure only there just to keep the software compatibility the same but what we're seeing with this chip is okay let's give apple silicon more cooling than we ever have i mean this thing like we'll get to the design of it but it's built for cooling and let's give it just as much power as it wants and apple is even quick to say, well, it's still less power than our PC friends over there on the other side of the world.

But this really, to me, I think shows that Apple is willing to play with that performance per watt number and willing to make different decisions on what the system on a chip and what the product needs. And that's not something we've seen from them in recent history. And I think to me, that's what's most exciting about it is they have built this chip and it has very different heat and energy requirements from the other chips it's based on. And Apple just went for it. And that's exciting because again, it gives me things in my imagination to consider

what the quad would look like or what a mac pro would look like down the road yeah i think to build on that a little bit i think apple like to be able to be the best at something and when they can be the best at something they go all out and they just couldn't do this with intel like they couldn't be better than anybody else because they were working from the same set of tools that anybody else had available to them. And so now they can, and they do have the ability to make

the fastest CPUs and GPUs around in their classes. They just keep doing it, and they keep doing it more and more and more because they can. So they just do it. And so they are i think you know like you when you were talking about the ultra in the in the mac studio jason it was making me think like that machine is built the mac studio to be capable whatever the ultra can throw at it so then if you put a max in it i mean you're getting so many of those benefits just because they had to build

it with so much headroom that it makes the overall experience better. And that's going to be interesting to see how that ends up spreading out further and further. You know, I would argue that the MacBook Pros benefit from this, right?

Like if you get a MacBook Pro with an M1 Pro, you are benefiting because this machine had to be made to support the M1 Max. So there's benefit to you there. So it's interesting how them just pushing for this performance makes everything more exciting.

And I think what is very clear is that the Mac team at Apple is invigorated top to bottom right now, because they are just turning out bonkers stuff. Well, I was going to ask Stephen, unofficial Mac historian, perhaps official Mac historian, Stephen. I think it's pretty official. This show, at least. What was the last new Mac?

Like, new Mac with a new, not a replacement of an existing SKU. It would be the 12-inch MacBook. I was thinking this, but that was called MacBook, and there was another product called MacBook but the two shared a name but nothing in common I mean look there's one right here and one right there but it was the name what was the first new Mac name

MacBook Pro probably or iMac Pro iMac Pro was the last new and even then it's like but it's an iMac I'm just saying this doesn't happen that often. No it doesn't. When you get something where it's like broken out of the

grid. It's like we've spent a long time where they're sort of like you got Mac Mini. Yeah. You got iMac. You got MacBook Pro. You got MacBook Air. They don't do it very often. And I Mac Pro. I think we were talking about this in Slack or iMessage. I think I wrote about it like 2022 the year Apple makes a new desktop computer.

It's very strange. But to your point about them being invigorated, they want to meet the needs of all different types of Mac users. And in the Intel world, they were handcuffed a little bit about how they could do that. Now, some of that was totally on Apple, right? They were chipsets and designs Apple could have used in the Intel era that they didn't, right? There was room for something like this in the Intel era,

and they didn't do it. Maybe that high-end 2018 Mac Mini got close. But with this, like, okay, so if this is the end of the M1 line, and let's just say the Mac Pro starts with an M2 derivative, this is the only M1 Ultra machine they may ever ship. Maybe it comes in an iMac Pro down the road, but this chip may not show up in many machines. But they spent the time and the money and the energy to make it for this product that's going to meet the needs of a lot of people. I'm just excited about that. You know, I think Apple makes, Apple obviously has to make decisions for the masses, but some of the most interesting decisions they make

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show and RelayFM. Studio. Studio. Studio. This is interesting to me because the way they positioned it it's like we have created a whole new family of things and i guess we can maybe assume we might see other things in studio later on but having a computer and a monitor branding them under one kind of umbrella i love it i think this is awesome because you know what i have a studio and i'm in one right now and it's Stephen's

and Jason has a studio in his garage and I love that they did that too where it's like studios are all kinds of things to all different types of people. I love this so much more than pro because pro as a name,

especially in computers, I think says something that like I have to be a professional but the work in studios can be creative work. studios can be creative work it can be side work it can be something you're trying to work out yourself you don't consider yourself a professional but hey i'm using this computer in my studio i really love it yeah it it legitimate like it legitimizes that sort of middle ground in a way remember that was one thing that was

so great about the iMac pro is that it sort of lived in the space this machine lives in where yeah it gave I mean all three of us owned them Jason you're still using one like it gave people uh an option when the Mac pro wasn't viable, and then when it was, but was expensive. And I mean, don't get me wrong, you can make the Mac Studio, you can make it pretty expensive. But it doesn't have to be. I wrote this thing years and years ago, I think Jason, with your help, probably, like the 1999 tower, like the idea that back in like the G5 and early Mac Pro days, you could get a quote-unquote pro machine with a pretty low entry price and that's something that's been missing and the mac

studio fulfills that promise but also you can spec it up with the chip we just spent 20 minutes talking about and make it a monster and the range this machine seems to have uh really honestly is is impressive to me and i think i think they've got a winner on their hands i'm excited i feel yeah i think bringing up the imac pro is interesting because i think you can see in apple in the 2010s this sort of struggle as the mac pro got more expensive because they really did reposition the mac pro gradually. It used to be, right, Power Macs, like everybody got Power Macs. Everybody who's an enthusiast, a power user, like there were so many people. You bought a Power Mac.

You didn't buy an iMac. You didn't buy a Performa or whatever. You bought a Power Mac. That was the thing. And that became, so Power Mac became the Mac Pro. But like as it became, the Power Mac G5 became the Mac Pro, and then it has evolved since then, like it kept getting more expensive and more esoteric because the main line of Macs became more powerful. And, you know, Stephen and I, I know have talked about this and we did it with 20 Macs

for 2020. Like when the original G3 imac came out anybody who was a serious mac user looked at it and said it was basically a toy like it was not a serious it was a underpowered thing for consumers but if you if you follow if you chart the next 15 years um it's hard to argue in the 2010s at some point that that most people shouldn't buy an iMac if they want a desktop Mac or a Mac mini because the Mac Pro became so expensive and so high powered and really a niche product for the very highest end. And the iMac was so powerful that like,

I mean, I think it wasn't just Apple deciding the Mac Pro would be expensive. I think it's Apple also recognizing that the iMac was no longer compromised in the way it used to be. And it was really the mainstream Mac most people should buy if they wanted something on their desktop. And then the Mac Mini, I'll throw in there this idea that you could configure up an iMac to put on like an i7 Intel processor and all of that. And then they did an iMac Pro with a Xeon in it.

And then you could configure up the Mac Mini as well. And you end up in this really weird state where these products that are not high-end products, but they're being pushed up at their high-end versions to be powerful enough that you don't need a Mac Pro. And when I think about Mac Studio, and I mean, we've only known about it for a couple of hours now, but when I start to grapple with it, I start to think about that attempt by Apple in the 2010s

to sort of use the high end of Intel's processors that were available and the thermal dynamics of the systems that they had built to offer that level of performance. It's like not quite Mac Pro, but like good enough for almost everybody into these computers that were, you know, more mainstream,

but you could spec them up. And the Mac Studio feels to me like it's Apple saying, no, no, no, no, no. We're not going to do that anymore. Like those systems are designed to be what they are. That 24 inch iMac is designed to be an M1. And it's, if you want to be serious, but not buy a Mac pro, we have now made a product like we could, there are going to be a lot of people

saying, is this the mythical mid range mini tower? Is this the X Mac? It's not expandable, but it is, but it does fulfill in a lot of ways that middle ground for people like us who don't sorry steven don't need a mac pro i mean they're fun but don't like need the performance that a mac pro brings but are also not gonna be satisfied professionally or personally with an m1 just an M1 iMac or something. And so I think it's a fascinating new Mac in a new spot. And I think it's kind of pulling out some of this stuff that Apple has tried to do at the high end of their products that probably weren't meant for it,

but it was the only way you could really get there if you didn't want to buy a Mac Pro. Yeah, it's so interesting too that Apple, they've left the, I mean, they set it, but they also left the door open for the Mac Pro with the pricing of the Mac Studio, right? This in a way frees up the Mac Pro to be six grand. Well, my iMac Pro cost five grand and it was the base model. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

So when you think about the max studio starting at 2000 and it doesn't have a display but i'm just gonna say don't know why i know this uh if you were to buy a max studio and a studio display one was you can do that for a lot less than five thousand dollars a lot less oh yeah and and that's uh that's interesting too in the light of the the 27 inch iMac not being a thing right now the Intel one's gone there's no Apple silicon replacement like a decent Mac studio plus a studio display which I mean Jason can we just for a second like just enjoy they brought the name back a very historic name can you give some context please yeah absolutely what is what is the like apple studio display which one was that one yeah so it was it was a name that lived on many displays from

apple but i think the ones that most people would be familiar with are the uh the very early lc it was kind of like a name used at the very early LCDs and the very last CRTs. And so it was a very transitional period. They eventually went to Cinema Display, which is what they stayed with up until 2013 or so. But I think Studio Display, like bringing that name back, a lot of people have fond memories of those. They would like the clear, I don't have one in here, like the clear acrylic feet. What? You don't have it? I have the Studio Display CRT. crt put it in our discord i have one right behind me right now yeah uh i have a couple of them i think they're in the attic because they didn't work and i have room in here but it's fun and it's fun that it comes with a mac that's named

it you know a lot of people have sent me the picture like the press photo of the g4 cube and the studio display it came with and yeah like this is kind of reliving that a little bit but hopefully it's not as cursed as other small desktops have been the g4 cube wasn't a great machine got canceled after a year right man i was so worried jason i i like said something to mike uh when they were showing like the you know they do like the fly around thing of like what the computer's gonna look like and i was like if this is another round computer yeah they did that on purpose i'm going to cry because they start by like showing the circle of the bottom of the machine and a circular power supply like boy that's gonna be fun when it breaks uh but you know so i don't i don't think they're repeating the mistakes of the cube or the mac

pro here even though it's kind of fun to like point those point those things out uh this seems like it's it's been designed with the future in mind 7.7 inches square 3.7 inches tall i would say when they showed the ad they did the ad it was like dream machine ad which is really fun and they were showing as well when they had the like it wasn't a house set i j ad it was like dream machine ad uh which is really fun and they were showing as well when they had the like it wasn't a house set i joked it was like a warehouse set that they had of like all these different studios the machine looks physically bigger in situ than i expected it would um and i think that's i don't really know if like why i thought that but it's it's not small that's for sure right it's i mean 7.7 is the mac mini, but it's not small, that's for sure, right?

It's, I mean, 7.7 is the Mac Mini size, so it's the Mac Mini footprint. It's just a lot taller, because the Mac Mini is a 1.4 inch height thing, and this is 3.7. So it's more than twice the size of the Mac Mini. If only I was somewhere where there were

multiple Mac Minis that could be stacked on top of each other in the other room i can't see them stack them up two and a half oh yeah look at them over there yeah so it's like those bottom three kind of okay so i can get a an accurate representation of three mac mini stacked on top of each other in front of me it's quite a big machine jason i'm not gonna lie it's not a it's not a little thing and i think that goes to to Stephen's point about like, this has been engineered for this kind of level of performance, right? And the fact that it's running the M1 Ultra, like whatever heat is going on there,

and I know these don't run as hot and they don't use as much power because it's Apple Silicon, but still. Still. They've built this thing so that you can keep it cool. And they have the little holes and they show the little person going into the holes in the video and all of that but also the i think the implication at the end there is that um she wakes up just before she's going to be cut like killed by the blades she's falling into the fan she's going to die and then she wakes

up because that's what wakes you up from a dream when you're about to die is it nice that they're getting more use out of that home set too i just a different one that was a different one it was much bigger i don't know it felt to me like it was the same it was the same set but they redressed it to make it more studio like i also don't think a lot of it was real but um the the machine's uh thermal stuff looks interesting right so it looks like air gets brought into the bottom because the bottom is raised and it passes through the machine they have these two big fans going on they call it an innovative thermal system then there were 200 tiny holes on the back where the air is exhausted if we get take out to the back we've got a lot of io one thing i was surprised about there is no magsafe here not even the magsafe on the imac

it's just a standard power like adapter that plugs into the back with an internal power supply so you don't have a brick yeah which again is not a big deal on the desktop i think as y'all spoken about but fine yeah but it being internal just a little bit nicer yeah you know and they can keep it cooler that way because it's actually part of the cooling system the air flows over the power supply which i'm sure actually helps a lot uh but the amount of io on this machine is wild so we have four thunderbolt 4 ports on the back. This is on the back. 10 gigabit Ethernet, two USB-A,

which I'm sure you're very happy about, Jason. We were talking about that. HDMI and a Pro Audio Jack, which is an audio jack with support for the high impedance headphones. Then on the front, which I love that they put I.O. on the front. If you have the M1 Max, you get two USB-C ports. If you have the M1 Ultra, you get two Thunderbolt 4 ports and an SD card slot.

I love that. You put I.O. on the front of the machine. It shows that you are aware that people have temporary use, you know? Like, oh, I just need to pull something off this. Oh, I just need to plug this in for a minute so I can charge my iphone or plug it in for a minute so i can pull pictures from my iphone having those io on the front that really shows me it's a simple thing but it shows me this idea of like we actually thought about this machine and how it will get used i love the name studio actually means something i should be clear because the way you phrased it was kind of unclear. There's an SD card slot regardless of what chip is in it.

The SD card slot is there. It's just a question of whether it's USB-C or Thunderbolt on the front. Yeah, very good. It can support tons of monitors, right? Like because you've got all the Thunderbolt 4 ports and a HDMI. I think they said like four displays and a TV it can do. Sure. Should we talk about some of the performance statistics of this

machine again i don't i mean they all just kind of pour like out and roll over me and i'm like okay it's huge like right i mean because it's everything we knew about the m1 max and then there's also the m1 ultra so it is you expand your mind about what a Mac can do because that's basically what this thing is. It's going to smoke my 12-core Mac Pro. Massively. Oh, yeah. And some of the specific benchmarks

they were comparing to like the 28-core Mac Pro, and they did some of that with the MacBook Pros in the fall when they introduced the M1 Max for the first time, but the M1 Macs for the first time. But the M1 Ultra, of course, basically doubles all of it. And yeah, I mean, if you have any Intel Mac, this machine is going to be as fast or faster than it in anything. And again, like there's headroom open for the future.

But having this amount of performance, even at the base model at two grand is impressive yeah uh so like just you know really they compared it to they didn't show any comparisons to other m1 machines because i don't really think that that was worth it but they did show comparisons to the imac the 27 inch iMac which is basically the iMac Pro and the Mac Pro and it was just like you know multiple times faster than the iMac in every way and it's like between 50 and 90 percent faster depending on the statistic that you're looking at to the Mac Pro on both CPU and GPU like that performance stuff is just unbelievable um with up to 128 gigs of memory

on the ultra and eight terabytes ssd yeah and put in that thing on either one yeah yeah we didn't really mention this uh in detail but basically the m1 ultra doubles everything about the max and so it's twice the memory capacity everything's basically twice as fast. It's very linear, just like the M1 to M1 Pro was as well. But, you know, it does get pricey, like we said. You are going to pay for that M1 Max. I mean, if you go to the order page, you can play with it, of course. But going from an M1 Pro to an M1 Ultra is at least $1,000, depending on where you're going from, $1,200 to $1,400, basically. And then if you go all the way to the big one, it adds $2,400 to the price. So the chips are pricey, but if that's what you need

and that's what you've been waiting for, then even a pretty loaded – I'm just hitting all the buttons now, which is a fun game – a fully loaded, I'm just hitting all the buttons now, which is a fun game, a fully loaded M1 Studio, excuse me, fully loaded Mac Studio is going to be about eight grand US. So yeah, that's Mac Pro money,

but it's also going to be shockingly faster than the Mac Pro ever could be because of this architecture change. The full-on Mac Studio maxes out at eight8,000, by the way, with the Ultra. That's as high as you can get it to. Is that what you said? Yeah. I thought you said the Max.

No, sorry. I meant Ultra. These names are confusing. We will remember Extreme because we have to say it that way every time, but yes. It could be worse. They could have called this the Mac Max. Or M1 Pro Max max as the chip name would have been miserable but uh right and then you end up with a like an m1 studio mac studio with the m1

max is the it's there's a lot of name stuff going on but we'll get used to it like i got used to saying macbook so yeah we'll figure it out so we teased it for long enough you know steven a second ago i think it was if you were jason your voices are just mixing in my brain right now. It's like the people that are waiting for these types of machines. I feel like I'm on a podcast of two people who have been waiting for this kind of machine. Jason, did you buy one of these? Oh, yeah. Okay.

Do you want to tell me about that? In the gap between the event ending and us starting this podcast i bought the base just like the imac pro i bought the base model except i upgraded to two terabytes of internal storage because i have one on my imac pro and i decided it might be nice to have a little bit more than that because every now and then i feel like i need to clear some stuff out in order to uh so i'm going to spend a little more on that but otherwise yours is 10 core cpu 24 core gpu that's because you can you can my gpu needs are not enormous right like i i'm never like oh man i need to pay for some more gpu i i really like the the a lot of

the stuff i do is is really more processor bound in terms of audio plugins and stuff like that so and i'm not you know i'm not gonna i'm not gonna spend for uh an m1 ultra like i said i feel like that is for people who are way beyond my needs i don't i don't need to go there but i did like because again you can cancel the order and and if you don't get in immediately are they are they going to push it back and say that we're not going to be able to ship it for another two months or something like that? But yeah, that's the plan. I've got an order in, put down my Apple Card, and said, give me that computer. I want it.

3% cash back, right? Is that what you got? 3%? Well, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It says on the order form it says you have an apple card on file with with us and if you use it you will save this amount of money it's like it's integrated into the checkout page all right we get it uh i will come back to your

decision in a minute jason i want to ask steven too did you ordered one of these yes what did you order uh i also ordered the M1 Max. Okay. Neither of you pushed that big button. No. And I did. Even for science? Not even for science.

I did 64 gigabytes of unified memory. And I have, unlike Jason, who has a home server, I don't have that anymore. I've been really used to having all my data on my machine. I don't want to go back. So I did push the big button for the 8 terabyte ssd so my machine is five grand it's the cost of the base level hello uh imac pro was or you know pretty close to the base mac pro uh have you ever heard of those things what are they called oh external ssds i'm still gonna need those yes i'm sitting

here thinking that just not two minutes ago i had to try to justify to you that i was gonna splurge on two terabytes i felt like there was no justification needed jason because i always go to two terabytes yeah i just years ago i just gave up on the home server idea and uh my data set is a little over is like five terabytes or something so uh that is what it is but uh yeah yeah and i'm gonna use it with the pro display i already have so it will just take place of the mac pro and if anyone's interested in a really nice 2019 mac pro please send me a life comes at you fast life comes at you fast Like we didn't know this computer existed and I found myself buying it almost immediately upon hearing about its existence. It was, that's quite a whirlwind

because I had to, you know, we talk about it theoretically. We're like, oh yeah, you know, what will you do if they do this and that, which we didn't even discuss this scenario really. But like a Pro Mac mini and an external display, what would you do? Nobody knew about this

until the weekend right like this is when but hats off to nine to five mac by the way they called both of these incredible reporting over there that they managed to get us this wasn't a lot of these details but didn't have the like had a lot of the details out there but didn't have the specific kind of this is what this product is what this machine is not is the next mac mini it's not that like it is much much more than that is this his half-eyed mac pro i don't know maybe it is maybe it's not i think this is mark german's uh smaller mac pro i think this is 100 what this is if i mean if you heard everything except the name right you would go oh that's a small mac pro yeah and it was interesting when they introduced it they mentioned modularity and that is different from upgradability this

thing doesn't have any slots again maybe that's room for the mac pro in the future but it's not it's got an sd card slot it's got an sd card slot but it doesn't you know what i mean it has it's exactly a card slot is it not a Come on, and you put a card in it. It doesn't... I hate both of you. If you think it isn't a slot, well, you're wrong. It doesn't have internal expansion. Right, you're not putting more drives inside of this.

It's a sealed box like everything else. That's why you've got to get the 8 terabyte big boy. Someone's got to do it. That's right. Since you guys know me, Phil, I'm screen sharing to my Mac Pro, looking at my folder sizes. Could I squeeze it down to four? Not very comfortably. I would... know me feel about i'm screen sharing to my mac pro like looking at my folder sizes like could i

squeeze it down to four and not very comfortably so i would do look live your best life that's right but my question is i just don't think you need that amount of stuff inside the machine like accessible all times but look hey live your best life my friend that's right you know do it this this machine for me I'm very intrigued by it I have not ordered one I love my M1 iMac very much but my plan was always spoke about this right with both of you

to do you know like oh I'll go to the next Pro Mac that's not a Mac Pro because I don't need a Mac Pro right that's probably this machine might be the only option. We'll jump ahead a little bit. Like John Turner said at the end, we have one more to go and it's the Mac Pro,

but that's for another day. And we're going to talk in our next segment about the other product that got announced here, right? And I think it's worth saying now in the context of the max studio that for depending on your lifestyle and what you want to do especially if you've already bought a macbook pro with a pro or max chip you know they're going to be a lot of people leading the external monitor at my desk kind of life and and the fact is the performance is great over there it really

is and that you could you could make that argument of like well why even get a mac studio at the low end why not just get a macbook pro and then you can unhook it and take it with you and yeah that for some people that's going to be a perfectly good argument to make but some of us are sort of like uh desktop users and want to have that powerful desktop. And this one fits the bill for me. And this was the thought that like I would get, you know, now I would live that two, I'm living a two computer life now

and I would continue to do that. And I would have the iMac Pro and the MacBook Pro. And I feel like I'm in a bit of a loss now because I'm not really sure what's going on. But this machine looks really, really cool and really exciting. I just haven't sat down and really really cool and really exciting i just haven't i just haven't sat down and look at it and really thought about it because i'm getting on great with

my m1 iMac we're having a fun time and like maybe for me like this wouldn't be a decision i would make until after experiencing the studio display because i actually think that that's important for me to work out what my future is going to be like like how well does the studio display integrate into my setup maybe i bought one of those we'll talk about it in a bit uh but it is fascinating and i i am i'm really really intrigued we've got a few weeks to go right until these things start arriving is it march 18th is when they start arriving is that is that correct that's right a week from friday So it's going to, I mean, maybe this is famous last words.

I don't imagine myself putting an order on one of these before like people start getting them and reviewing them. But this is an absolutely fascinating computer, but it is only one half of the story. This episode is brought to you by our good friends over at Memberful,

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time. I can't believe it. I can't believe it. I didn't pick it in the draft specifically because I've been beaten down. i always want it for like a year and it never ever happens and here it is it happened this is the thing i wanted the most you know like of especially when we thought what we might be going into because this is the you know i've spoken about before the place i have the most frustration in my life is with the lg display that i have which just doesn't work the way that i want and apple delivered here and i had so many like i was on a roller coaster ride jason because it was like oh here's the monitor this is the monitor that i want oh no there's no adjustable stand yeah there's an adjustable stand but how much is it gonna cost

like it was like i was having a real ride and this is what i bought i bought one of these oh yeah it's 400 for the adjustable stand by the way 400 yeah that's cheaper than i thought it was going to be not the it's not the it may actually be the pro stand i guess someone will take it apart and look but it's not the cost of the pro stand which is nice so i bought the studio display standard glass with the tilt and height adjustable stand so it wasn't cheap and it's going to come sometime in early April, I think, for me. Well, I bought the piece amount. You'll be shocked to know.

No way! Horrors! Shock horror! And it looks like, unlike your iMac Pro, this is a make your decision at time of purchase type thing. Oh, really? I mean, looking at pictures, you know, this is day one, so maybe we're not sure yet, but it seems like you're not changing between these in the future.

Right, okay. They're, like, pretty fixed. It looks like, looking at the pictures and looking at Apple's language, you pick your stand type, and that is your stand type forevermore. Yeah, I mean, like the images on Apple's, like on the buying page, you can scroll through the three of them and you're right.

That doesn't look like there's somewhere to say, mount the VESA arm, like the mount that you need. It looks like that that is just on that model that you're buying. And so maybe like I'm not getting mine until early April because they don't have as many with the

stand on them or whatever but this is what i want like you know for me i didn't want to buy this monitor and then put it on another riser again like what i wanted was something that i could have free adjustment over because that's really important to me yeah and the pro stand is with these features again not quite sure if this is the same hardware the features are really nice i mean you've sat at my desk this week you can move the pro display all around and it's nice and smooth people can i would just say just just a bit of behind the scenes i sat down at steven's desk a little bit earlier on jason to he was like oh why don't you come instead of sitting on this small desk that we set up to record why don't you come and sit on my desk it'll be more comfortable so i brought my laptop over he said don't touch the display that's what he said to me since you can't use the display you have to look at your laptop

it's it's the cables routed over to the mac pro it'd be so hard it would have been so difficult to do it'd been so hard jason what did you get for the studio display um base model base amount that was it base face base face base face face like yeah shiny face not the nano texture i don't need that um and uh face amount because i i mean this i anticipate i didn't look at the tech specs but i anticipate it'll be lighter than an imac pro oh yeah and uh yeah that's definitely what i want i did i did confirm by the way this is literally the same panel that apple has used in the 5k iMac for all these years that's what this is it is what everybody asked for which is a standalone display of the 5k monitor that was in the iMac and iMac pro so uh that's that's great let give some speeds and feeds. With an A13 for fun. Yeah,

27 inches, 5K retina, 600 nits of brightness, P3 color, true tone. All the things that you expect from a 27 inch iMac, which rest in peace, is in this display. And then it also has an A13 bionic in it. Now, when they were talking about this in the presentation they went on to talk about the 12 megapixel ultra wide or center stage and the mics and then the speakers it didn't make sense to me why the a13 bionic was needed for these things do either of you have an idea on this i i do know this actually so it's two things it's center stage and it's uh processing the audio for spatial audio it's doing both of those tasks okay and if you if you're asking yourself why not just let the mac do it these things are actually compatible with intel max and so they're offloading all of that kind of stuff to the a13 on the display

instead that's really smart and i guess as well going into the future it gives them a bit of flexibility to do there might be some other fun stuff that they might want to do. I don't know what. Because what this doesn't have is Face ID. Disappointed? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I've seen the evidence of Apple's desire

to put Face ID on a mac no i mean look i'm disappointed but i wasn't expecting it if that makes sense like i would love it to have been there but i didn't think it was going to be yeah i agree uh three usb c ports on the monitor and then a thunderbolt port for connecting to a mac and this delivers 96 watts of power. So I would be able to plug in my 14-inch MacBook Pro. It would pull in everything and I guess pass over any IO through the Thunderbolt cable. I expect how that's supposed to work.

And then also keep it powered. This is exactly what I was looking for. I'm so happy. It's kind of reminiscent of the old Thunderbolt display. Now that had Ethernet on it too, because you can adapt USB-C to basically anything. But yeah, the one cable lifestyle, it actually will fast charge your 14-inch MacBook Pro,

and it will keep up with the 16. It's with that 96-watt. That's the rating for the 16-inch MacBook Pro. So yeah, if you're the type of user, and a lot of people are, right? A lot of people, especially back in the day, you know, notebook plus display. And that's one reason Apple's lack of a display is still expensive, right? This is not a $500 Dell that, you know, Casey bought a couple of.

But it's not a Pro Display XDR price tag either. No, I mean, maybe it's just that that Apple has again, sort of like tormented us so long, but this is less than I thought that they were going to charge us. They were licking, linking through all the features, listing all those features like, Oh, and it's got center stage and it charges. It's got all these ports and all that. And I'm like, Oh man, this is going to be a $2,000 display, isn't it? And it's not, I mean, it it's not cheap but none of us expected an apple standalone display to be price competitive with displays from other manufacturers none of us really believe that right that's not the game apple plays it's going to be more expensive but it's going to be the

apple one and you and we've learned if anything apple has taught us in the last five years or longer 10 years is um what's the world like when you don't get the apple display or you can't get the apple display and uh is it what's that worth to you buddy and this is the answer but um it's less than i i feared it would be and you know i put my money down for it there you go. This isn't a problem by any stretch, but I was just looking on the tech specs page, and the Thunderbolt port is Thunderbolt 3, which is funny because they seem to put 4 on everything now. Yeah, well, there's not really a difference in bandwidth

between 3 and 4, I don't think. Okay, so what's the difference then? Thunderbolt 4, I believe, we talked about this on Connected at some point. I'm trying to remember the details. But it is the one that sort of collapses USB and Thunderbolt into one spec. Okay. But my guess is, even if there is a difference,

and the chat room may be correcting me, using Thunderbolt 3 does what Jason said. It gets you backwards compatibility with Thunderbolt 3 Intel Macs. So you can run this with a 2016 MacBook Pro or an iMac from 2017, the iMac Pro, any Mac with Thunderbolt 3 Intel Macs. So you can run this with a 2016 MacBook Pro or an iMac from 2017, the iMac Pro, any Mac with Thunderbolt 3. And my guess is that that was important to them, that they wanted to be able to support a pretty wide range of machine.

And so Thunderbolt 3 gives them that. Thunderbolt 4 doesn't really give them anything they need past that. So I don't think, I don't view that as a spec of like, oh, that's weird anything they need past that. I don't view that as a speck of like, oh, that's weird. They did something old. I think it gives them a nice range of benefits for people who

are holding onto those Intel machines for some reason and want an external display. Why not serve that group too? Yeah, that makes sense. And I'm just so happy they're back into this business like i'm just really happy you know and i'm not one of these people who are like oh i can't look at this og you know like i'm not like that like it's not a design thing for me it purely

has been like my functionality experience of external displays and docks and stuff has just been really poor and i just i naturally expect that uh i will be able to get a much better experience out of an apple made monitor because this is what it's for and breaking news we have some real-time uh follow-up from the king of cables himself federico vatici thunderbolt 4 provides 100 watt charging on a single cable plus 8k single monitor that's one of the things that it does the three doesn't so it does have some extended ability but nothing they need for this and yes because none you don't need either of those features but i guess that's why uh it it just a 16 do fast charging at all i think if you get that giant giant charger so that's probably why they said

it fast charges to 14 right because that's not enough power because it's essentially providing the power that the smaller brick yeah provides not the one that the giant brick that's just in the in the 16 inch yeah um but otherwise oh by the way you can plug an ipad into it too oh wow okay into it too oh wow okay because that's a useful thing yeah you can plug an ipad into it for the poor experience that you will be wanting to accept from exactly well maybe someday they will do a software update that enables a better experience now that they have an external display but for now you can plug it in for the bad experience you can you can get that if you want i think it's really uh interesting the design language they chose for this because it it's basically the 24 inch iMac without the chin but from the front it really looks like a pro

display like they've kind of walked the line between looking related to both of those products and you know it fits in line with apple's modern design language of flat sides you know tight corners i think it looks really nice uh i kind of wish it was available in more colors but that is what it is i guess but um from the front if you didn't know you may think it's a pro display because it's got those thin black bezels and squared off look i love it i love that they've got the it's got those two looks right depending on the stand you go for you can even make it like an iMac or make it look like a pro display which is kind of funny really and the truth is it's you know we're so focused today i mean maybe mike isn't but uh

on the fact that it's coming out with the mac studio so you've got the studio display on the mac studio and and everybody's talking about it but like not only is this for older intel max it's for uh macbook air and for the the m1 mac mini yeah and like i mean it is for everything everything so everything yeah like i i'm excited about the mac studio but i need to think more about it like i want this computer but i don't know if it's the right one for me like i need i i feel like this is something i really need to get my head around but as i said like the studio display is like this is exactly for me like this is what i want they put everything in it that i wanted in your studio in mega studio it's going to be the apple studio is it called the it's called the apple studio

display right that's the full name right apple studio display in mega studio i'm very excited In Mega Studio, it's going to be the Apple Studio. It's called the Apple Studio Display, right? That's the full name? Right. Apple Studio Display in Mega Studio. I'm very excited. Do you, Eva, if you have any more thoughts on the studio display? Because I want to come back to addressing what John Turner said at the end. I think my closing statement on the display is just like, it's about time. Like, we've talked about this for so long.

And I kind of feel today the same sense of relief I felt when they replaced the butterfly keyboard. It's like we had this ongoing complaint, legitimate complaint, about Apple's product strategy with the Mac. And now this was the last low-hanging fruit in my mind. I can't really think sitting here today, like, what's the, the big thing that's wrong with, with the lineup?

And I really can't put my finger at anything. Yeah, because we're still in this transition. There's still more to come. We're going to go with that in a second.

But, this was such a gaping hole for so long. You know, it seems like they've really got this right. The prices is, like we said,

it's expensive, but it's what you were going to get from Apple, maybe even cheaper what we were thinking. So I'm really impressed. I don't have space for this. I don't have need for this. But I know there are tons of people who do. And I think people are really going to be excited

to ditch that, you know, that LG 5K they bought in 2017 with something like this. Yeah, and for me, I, you you know i just wanted to mention the stands again because i care about this stuff and um i i love that there's a visa mount but we knew we were going to have that but it's also no extra and that they've got the standard stand that looks like a limac foot um for the standard price And then they've got this, you know, $400 tilt stand. And I'm sure they're going to get grief because they always are now after that Pro Display XDR stand was $1,000 for selling a $400 stand.

And I wish that it was cheaper, obviously. But at the same time, I'm glad that they didn't make it standard and have the whole price of the thing be higher. I'm glad that they didn't make it standard and have the whole price of the thing be higher yeah i'm glad that it's an option and and you know really because we talked about this with the 24 inch iMac i'm just really glad that they made it so that people who want more adjustability have access to it without having to do something like a VESA mount on a VESA stand that is adjustable like because because the fact is for a lot of people depending on their ergonomics depending

on how tall they are or the where their desk is or whatever the standard fixed height of like an iMac isn't a good height or it isn't a good height in certain circumstances and so i'm glad that they built this option to have that sort of tilt adjustment stand um for people even though it is you know pricey i'm glad it exists because they could have just not done it great and and even though we could say well yeah but it should just be standard at that price like well yeah okay maybe but um they chose not to do it that way and i can understand it's probably not it's probably engineered maybe not like the xdr stand but it's probably engineered really well and one of those things where they spared no expense on it and so that's why it

costs what it does but i'm just so happy that it exists because i know there are a lot of people out there who um complain about you get this beautiful imMac or display and then you have to put it on a on a dictionary or something and that's not great I think the biggest difference for me like yeah I agree there's always going to be people like oh this stands this now but the difference being with this monitor over the XDR with the XDR you had to choose one of them either the stand or the VESA and it was always more money right like the $1,000 stand was the only stand you could put the monitor on right so it's like you're kind of out of luck but with this one well you get the regular stand and then if you want to go extra go extra that's up to you but with the Pro Display XDR it's like well you could just

balance it I guess right like yeah like what was John Syracuse's thing about getting a child to hold it for you? I think I remember that at WWDC. I'm really excited about this. This was the thing that's got me the most pumped right now because it's really solving something. Jason and I have been asking the upgradians for some Ask Upgrade questions

and they've got lots of them, so should we get to a few? Yeah, let's do it. Thank you. And this first one from Peter addresses what I wanted to talk about with what John Ternus mentioned at the end. Peter says, do you think the iMac Pro name

will ever be used again? So as a recap, as a recap real quick, the, like John Ternus said, one more to go, Mac Pro, that's for another day yeah so steven just posted something on 512 pixels um where he's like ah this guy it'll ride again and my feeling is the exact opposite which is i think there will be a 27 inch imac at some point

but i think the days of the imac being pushed up with high spec stuff for more prosumer kind of users are probably over for a while. Never say never. But I feel like what the Mac Studio is saying and what the Studio Display is saying is Apple has, like we said earlier, found this place where the consumer Macs are over here and the Mac Pros over here. found this place where the consumer Macs are over here and the Mac Pros over here. And instead of us complaining that the Mac Pro is too high end and the consumer Macs are, you know, over kind of like being pushed out of what they're for in order to fulfill the desires of people who want a little bit more, that the Mac Studio exists now. So that's my gut feeling is that there will not ever be an iMac Pro again, but that there, I think there will be a 27 inch iMac at some point, probably like using an M2, but it's just going to be a bigger version of the 24. It's not going to be pushed where it's got Pro chips in it or Max chips in it or Ultra chips in it.

It's going to be just a bigger of the base iMac and and it can go back to being that and I I do you know there'll be rumors I I will just say I I don't believe that we have we've seen the last of the bigger iMac I I I know that they it's end of life and it's over for now but I I you know you know how at the end of a concert everybody cheers and then the the people come back on stage for the encore and like everybody knows that's going to happen. I kind of feel like that's what's happening with the 27 inch iMac is they're probably already working on it. But next year they're going to be like, you know, we heard that people loved it. And so we decided to bring it back.

It's like, you already decided. I bet. I bet. But I don't think iMac Pro, I don't think, I don't think deforming the iMac product line in order to stick a Pro model in it, I think the Mac Studio's existence means they won't ever do that again. So let me offer my counterpoint.

Please do. The outgoing Intel 27-inch iMacs, the starting prices range from $1,800 to $2,300, depending on the CPU you got. The cheapest Mac Studio, Studio Display combination is $3,600 before you buy $200 worth of keyboards and mice. Of course, you could put a Mac Mini next to a studio display, but the Mac Mini isn't running in the same circles as the old high-end iMac and this new Mac Studio machine, right? Because it's just the M1. Now, the Intel Mac Mini is still for sale.

Maybe there is an M1 Pro Mac Mini coming at some point in the future. We did not see that today. But I think that as it stands right now, Apple may want people to go buy a Mac Studio and a Studio Display to replace an old 27-inch iMac. But you're spending possibly a good bit more to do that. And I think that's, you know, we were talking a second ago about holes in the lineup. Maybe this is one beginning to form. up maybe this is one beginning to form but it's just it's it's feels a little bit strange not to have that that machine around um and the reason i think the iMac pro name in particular could come

back which i didn't think months ago and i've changed my mind on it and i feel even more so about it today is let the iMac be the consumer desktop right it comes in colors that's its history right i mean there's an orange one like three feet away from mike right now it's it's is let the iMac be the consumer desktop, right? It comes in colors. That's its history, right? I mean, there's an orange one like three feet away from Mike right now. It's that fun consumer machine. An iMac Pro could come in at a higher price and kind of fill the space above it

and like making the iMac brand almost more pure, not stretching it. And so I think we will see something. I think the iMac Pro name will come back. It's just a matter of when. And that's why I found Ternus's line so interesting. Like, yeah, he answered the question, what will happen to the Mac Pro? Because Mike, when we were sitting on my couch watching and I asked you, I was like, well, what does this mean for the Mac Pro? Ternus answered that. Well, the Mac Pro is coming.

That is like slogan of the decade for Mac users. Like the new Mac Pro is coming. Yeah. It's always coming. But even that doesn't really fill the hole that the big iMac leaves behind. And so I think we'll see something. And I think them saying, you know, that's the last one to make the transition, that doesn't close the door on a big iMac. I think it may be a bit more interesting than that in the future.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I guess you think you are thinking more about Apple's benevolence than I am. I think. I'm in a good mood, man. We got a cube-shaped computer. I know. I think. I'm in a good mood, man. We got a cube-shaped computer. I know. I sort of. I'm a smush cube.

But I think it's more likely that what Apple's going to say is, look, Apple Silicon is so powerful that for most people's uses, all you really need is to get an iMac or a Mac Mini or a laptop. Yeah. And MacBook Air even.

And you'll be fine. And if you want that screen, you can get the external display, or you can buy maybe down the road a 27-inch iMac, but it's just going to be an M2 or something like that, which is just an M2. Like it's pretty good. And then somebody will say, this is the reverse of the whole X-Mac argument,

which is somebody will say, but what if I want more? And Apple will say, that's what you buy mac studio uh external monitor if you want more that's it and yes there's a little bit of a hole there but i think that that is apple saying um we're not gonna make we're not gonna repurpose our consumer products for a high-end model in order to fulfill that. We built a product for you. And it costs what it costs. And the good news is that when we come out with a new one in two years, you won't have to replace your monitor. Yeah.

I guess we'll find out, right? I mean, Gurman has said he expects another wave of Macs in the May-June timeframe. So either before or at wbdc mark german has been so all over the place with the big one he doesn't know about it i mean we've been talking about this for weeks he seems to have been a little bit trying to read tea leaves on that one that adds to me my feeling so i think the imac pro is gone. I think, you know, we spoke about this so many times. The iMac Pro is from an alternate timeline. And now that space has been occupied by the Mac Studio.

It is the professional computer for most people, right? The high-end computer for most people. Yeah, but that leaves people out who just want a big iMac, who don't care that it had a Xeon in it or whatever. So I think that's I think it doesn't leave them out because I do think that there will be a 27 inch iMac at some point but it's not going to be a pro level thing it's going to be like an M2 and that'll

be what it is and you'll get 24 or 27 I could even see that there isn't going to be another big iMac it's just like they have one computer it's called iMac it's wild right? Can you imagine going back like two years and be like, there's going to be intense debate about the future of the iMac. It's like, but that's the bread and butter.

Like that's the flagship, right? And here we are. But, you know, Apple has these opportunities in these transitions to redefine what these machines are, right? And that's what we've seen today. We've seen them take a form factor they flirted with over the last 20 years with the cube and the trash can and say, hey, we're going to make something new

that sits on your desk that's really powerful and quiet. And maybe they're doing that, you know, in these other areas as well. It's fun to be able to debate it and to talk about it because, like, when's the last time there was any debate about what the iMac was or should be? Oh, yeah. This goes back. I mean, I said this earlier, but this goes back to the iMac getting redefined as the computer that was not just for consumers but was for people at the fairly high end but not so high end that they bought a Mac Pro.

And that happened gradually, but it did happen and i feel like this is maybe apple going back a little bit and redefining it again and saying no we're not going to do that this time with the imac we're not going to make it have this range like we did with intel processors where we could get you something that was fairly low end and we can get you something that's pretty high end and they're all jammed in the same enclosure with the same cooling system. And they're like, no, we're not going to do that. And so in terms of that, you mentioned that event that may be coming up that Mark Gurman talked about. It does feel like this was the wrap on the M1, right? This is the last new m1 chip yeah that's that's absolutely the case so you know that macbook air rumor is out there and there was the macbook pro rumor there's a bunch of

m2 laptop rumors out there and i don't know whether that'll be in may or june or whether it'll be later in the summer or in the fall or whatever but like it feels to me like the next mac announcement is going to be now here's the m2 yeah you know and i just and sitting here thinking about it you know maybe we've all sliced the bread too thinly is that a phrase i have absolutely no idea what that means maybe we've parsed his his comment too closely you know maybe apple does view the big and small iMac as kind of the same machine same family machines yeah the Mac Pros left where I did the iMac it's like don't pay attention well and officially the 27 inch iMac is end of life today right so like it how if Apple doesn't uh introduce like doesn't talk about future products but they're going to stop making an Intel iMac that really they shouldn't be selling anymore, right?

Well, what happens? Exactly what we just saw, which is even if they were making a larger iMac for next year, they wouldn't necessarily say that now. They just say the old one is gone. And that's what they didn't say. We're never going to do the bigger one. They just said it's gone. That one is gone. I think it's even weirder that they got rid of the old one. To me, them just

end of lifing the existing one today, that's more evidence to me that there isn't a bigger one on the horizon. Why? So reading the tea leaves again about what Gurman's reports have been, it sounds to me like maybe there has been a project, but it has kind of been on

and off, or it's been delayed. And he had that one report where it was like they haven't started working on the bigger iMac so I I wonder if maybe the truth is that they looked at the Mac studio and they looked at the external display and said this will get us through for a while and then we'll push that other larger iMac down the road and do it next year. We'll do, or, you know, probably they said it last year. So they like, but in 23, we'll, we'll get to it, but, but it'll be okay in the meantime, because we've got the 24 inch iMac and we've got this display, um, that's 27 inches and that'll be good enough.

And that's, that's going to be my guess. At least right now is that that's where they are. Is that I, the larger iMac is like something that they felt they didn't have to do and that they probably had a bunch of other stuff in in the pipeline and they're like we can wait on this one and that might explain german's kind of haziness about it's like yes but um maybe that's the truth of it is that it was hovering out there but it they just decided uh they had other stuff to do before they got to it. Over the weekend, Ming-Chi Kuo tweeted, he's on Twitter now, which is great.

Ming-Chi Kuo tweeted, 2023 for Mac Pro and iMac Pro. And I'm still not sure about the iMac Pro, but at the time I was like, 2023, no way. Now I understand why, because they're the studio. I was like, how can they leave it so long? Buys time. Yeah.

That makes a bit more sense. Yeah. And Apple didn't foresee a pandemic when they, you know, opened up the calendar app on Tim's iPad to like map out the Apple Silicon transition, right? It's like 23 to your point, Mike. Yes, they were doing all this, but there's also all those other things going on too. And if it's, you know, another year for the mac pro it'll kind of linger out there like the trash can did and those of us who want something in that class can

buy and enjoy mac studios won't be in the pandemic when they started i think we were but even like they didn't know how long it's gonna last i know that they didn't know the supply chain i just have to roll that one back in my brain and be like oh my god it's been that long all right there's more questions adam says i was surprised by how cheap the new studio display is then i realized it's 500 nits compared to 1600 of my 14 inch macbook pro or the pro display xdr so it doesn't appear to be a hdr monitor does that disappoint any of you no i'm okay with it because it's the screen that i've had on my desk for seven years essentially um that 5k iMac panel and it's a good display and while i can

accept that new better display tech is coming um i'm okay i'm okay with it. Again, if I had to wait another year in order to get an HDR version, and what would that cost? I'm kind of okay with it as it is. Yeah, I agree. And they've used that panel for a long time. It looks really good. It still does.

It does. That panel, I remember when the first 5K IMAX came out, and of course they've improved it since then, but even then thinking like, this is all anyone needs. It's someone who has a pro display xdr who doesn't use the fancy movie making like i'm not making star wars in my pod cabin right like it's it's i'm using it as a computer display be good it's there's so many that the features of the pro display that i feel are untapped by my usage.

Whereas this thing, people can get and they'll use every ounce of it and it's going to be great. And it's got speakers and stuff, which is fantastic. Oh, yeah. Your expensive one doesn't have speakers, does it? No, I have clear sound sticks on either side of it. My iMac Pro is at three dots for brightness. Yeah. So I'm not anywhere close to using the brightness of this display anyway i don't know if we answered this earlier but nicholas asked how much ram did you each get

in your mac studio i did 64 gigs i did 32 which is what i've got in the in the imac pro i think it's enough and i decided not to spend more money on that yeah and zach asked me what was the best part about watching the event with steven uh i love watching events for friends especially steven because you get to exclaim things very loudly and somebody there can hear you yeah somebody cares right and can get involved with you you know with something has did he just say that no i can't like you know that's what I like. Watching them on your own. So usually over the last three years with these things,

I've watched it, done our shows, whatever, and then usually the night over, the next night, I'll re-watch it just to take more notes

and I'll make Mary sit down and watch it because I just want to bounce ideas off of somebody and the dog doesn't care about displays. You could bounce ideas off Eva though though you could

i mean yeah i mean she would just stare at me and want to treat bounces back completely it does blank look on her face eva corn dog is our dog we should clarify eva's not a person he was a dog so uh so yeah it is it is fun to watch these um like mike said we haven't done it together since 2017 and so today was a lot of fun and even though an apple event in the middle of our trip together like has blown a big hole of work right in the center of it we lost the entire day i'm glad that it worked out this way me too me too all right i think that wraps it up for this week's episode of upgrade uh if you would like to send in a question for us to answer on a future episode,

just send in a tweet with the hashtag AskUpgrade or use question mark AskUpgrade in the RelayFM members Discord, which you can get access to. If you sign up for Upgrade Plus, go to GetUpgradePlus.com and you'll get longer, ad-free versions of every single episode of Upgrade. I would like to

thank our sponsors for this week. Member4, Capital One, Smile, and Electric. And thank you to our guest, Stephen Hackett. You can find Stephen. He is at ISMH on Twitter, writes at 512pixels.net, and hosts many wonderful shows here on RelayFM. You can go check them out for yourself.

Jason is over at 6colors.com and he is at jsnl, J-S-N-E-L-L. Stay tuned to 6colors, I'm sure, for lots more analysis and thoughts about today's announcements. I am at imike, I-M-Y-K-E. And we'll be back next week. Although I think I'm going to be away, right?

Yeah, I'm taking the week off. Jason's going to have a guest. Jason's going to be back. Next week. I'm traveling home on that day. So you can still have an episode of Upgrade on Monday. Jason's going to be getting a wonderful guest to fill in for me. I wonder who that will be.

Who knows? It could be literally anybody. Probably not Steven as well. It will not be me. Won't be Steven. So outside of three of us, it could be anyone. So make sure you tune into that. We'll be back next time.

Until then, say goodbye, Jason and Steven.ven bye y'all bye steven bye mike