Upgrade - 401: This App May Not Kill You

Episode Date: April 4, 2022

Myke takes possession of his Apple Studio Display, Jason gets excited about the arrival of Audio Hijack 4, and Apple revises its approach to allowing external links in iOS apps.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 401 today's show is brought to you by fitbod bombas and doordash my name is mike hurley and i'm joined by jason from my garage i'm jason snell hello i don't live in Relay FM, you know. Wherever you go, it's half of Relay FM. Live from Megastudio. It's your Relay M for Mike. Is this like Snell Zone? Like wherever you go? Yeah, your Relay M and Stephen is Relay F. Why F? I don't know.

It's not Relay SM. It's Relay FM. So he gets to be F. It's for the F in Stephen. Friendly Stephen Hackett. No, you can hear it. There's an F in Stephen. You know, like, it sounds that way. Stephen, you know?

Yeah. It just doesn't spell it that way. Stephen Hackett. I'm excited about today's episode, Jason. I am too. Got a lot of big stuff to cover. I'm always excited about Upgrade, Mike. It's how I start my week.

I get to talk to my friend, Mike. Hello. We are really kind people who don't do things like correct other people on their podcasts. We don't do that here. We're nice. We don't do what I consider as correction ambush. No. There's very rarely surprise spiders on this show, so that's good.

I've been ambushed a lot recently on my podcasts. I don't know if you're going to try and take control of this one today who could tell i was the original ambusher though right when i brought federico well federico did the ambushing that well that's oh yeah but i was the engineer of the ambush but yes federico did the ambushing it's true i have a hashtag snow talk question comes from brian brian wants to know jason if you were invited to be a guest on the flop house what movie would you want to talk about? Flophouse, one of my, maybe my all-time favorite podcast. Love it.

I mean, I love it. Still listen to every episode. Although there's an episode that I'm holding because it's a movie I want to see. So I don't want it to be spoiled before I listen. But generally, yes, I love it. Dan McCoy, Elliot Kalin, Stuart Wellington. They're great. They just did a live show.

Loved it. Happy to pay for that. Just, you know, they're the best. I don't know why I would be invited on to the Flophouse. Although I will accept if invited. I will accept. My choice, I mean, I would go with something recent if they wanted to because they usually go with something recent. So I would, you know, sign me up for Morbius or something. It would be fine. Like something that's kind of up my alley. I would do that. But if I'm going to a classic,

I would go to the movie covered already on The Incomparable in episode 320, A Rocket Surgery. It's my favorite bad movie of all time 1981's frankenstein island so boys i'm ready to talk i'm ready to to take you to the exciting world of frankenstein island where it's not really about frankenstein but there's a lady with a house and there's these uh these sort of women wearing weird leopard print bikinis, charming snakes. And there's an old drunk in a jail cell. And the ghost of John Carradine appears at various points randomly. It's quite a thing. I discovered this movie in high school, and it was very fun to subject my podcasting pals to this. And every so often I hear from uh i hear from tony cindylar and he tells me

you know jason i was thinking about frankenstein island the other day and it delights me that that it haunts him now like it haunts me it's great if you would like to send in a hashtag snow talk question of your own just send out a tweet with the hashtag snow talk or use question mark snow talk in the relay fam members discord would you like to address the follow-up ambush? I guess we have to. Stephen Hackett on Connected last week ambushed Mike with fact-checking about our discussion of whether

Apple would make people pay more for colors, just pure color charges. We talked about the Black MacBook and the Black MacBook tax. Stephen posted a blog post where he wrote about it. And I read that blog post and I thought, oh, it's very nice of Stephen because he's basically correcting us, but he's not phrasing it as a correction. And then I linked to his post and owned up to the fact that Stephen was

providing information and we kind of got it wrong last week. Only to listen then over the weekend while I was mowing my lawn to Connected and hear that he wasn't so nice because he ambushed you during Connected with this information. So yes, the argument there is that although the black MacBook was more expensive, it was also higher specced, which is true. Although the black MacBook was more expensive, it was also higher specced, which is true. Although it's also true that if you specced the white MacBook to match it, there would still be a price difference. And that was the source of the black tax concept, is that even if you specced them identically, it was more expensive. So it was not just the case that there was a higher specced model that in a different color, which is very much like the 24 inch iMac, right? Where some of the colors only come in the higher spec model. You can't get it in the base model, but even if you made them all line up, the black MacBook costs more for the same specs. There was still a tariff on the color.

Also in current times, and we didn't mention this mostly cause I mean, I, I didn't even think of it. Um, I just don't think that this is a big deal, but it's, it's a true thing. Apple charges more for the black trackpad mouse and keyboard than it does for the white one, white, silver, white one. Why? Because they can. I've been getting that feedback a lot.

Now I'm getting this feedback about these colors from two shows now. Yeah. So I just want everyone to stop talking about it. Let's stop. Yeah. Anyway, so I guess my point is, do I think Apple will make a Mac or even an iPhone that is not at all different from the other models, but you pay more because of the color.

I don't think so. They're doing it for the accessories. I don't think they'll do it for a Mac or an iPhone or an iPad, I guess. But the asterisk there is they may sequester some of the colors. It's just like the colors in the iPhone Pros aren't the same as the colors in the iPhone,

but that's not quite the same because you're buying a different phone. And even with the iMac 24, they're sequestering it, but they're doing it in the step-up model and all the colors are the same price at that model. So I think I read that question to be really like, literally, you can get this computer for $1,500

unless you want it in purple at which point it's $1,600 for the same computer. And I don't think they'll do that. But the counter argument is why is the black keyboard more expensive? And I have no answer for you there. It's professional.

It's a professional one. It is. It is. I got my studio display yay those are getting those are those are arriving james thompson our friend showed us that he got his and and his mac studio too so it's it's happening it's all happening uh the studio display that i got it's just as a refresher to people was the standard panel with the height and tilt adjustable stand so oh the pro display xdr looking stand it doesn't operate exactly as that one like i can't do tilting like

uh what do they call it clockwise and yeah it doesn't rotate yeah horizontal to portrait um i thought i would talk you through my impressions of using it for only a couple of days. It is, I was immediately struck by how big and heavy the box was. Like to a point where I was like, wow, this is the heaviest Apple product box I've picked up in a long time. And I expect the majority of, I expected the majority of that weight

was in the stand that I had on my display. So I looked through it. The Pro Display XDR, sorry, no, that's not what I got. The Apple Studio display with the regular stand is 13.9 pounds, which is 6.3 kilograms. The one with the height adjustable

stand that I have is 16.9 pounds, which is 3 pounds heavier. You have three pounds of more yeah stand which i'm not surprised about right you've got to anchor the display right because it can be moved around so much you don't want it falling over um this is 7.67 kilograms and the imac that i have sitting in front of me, the 24-inch iMac, I remembered how light that box felt. Well, that was 9.83 pounds, 4.46 kilograms. And I was thinking, well, what could have been

the heaviest thing I could remember? And I remember the iMac Pro box being pretty heavy. And that was 21.5 pounds, so it was the heaviest. Yeah, this display is a lot lighter than the iMac Pro, but not like the 24-inch iMac. That's interesting. So if I really wanted the optimum floating above my desk experience, I should get a VESA mount iMac 24-inch instead. Yeah. I'm not going to do that.

Just in regards to the box, I really like the woven handles that they put on these boxes. I had it with the iMac and with this. Just like in general, this all, I think, came from the Mac Pro, like the way that they do Mac boxes now, especially the desktop boxes. Yeah. That's so nice. Mac Pro makes sense, right? Because it's lower volume, so they can experiment on a low-volume product. Because the goal here is to get

plastic out of packaging. And they have been working on it. There's a lot of stuff that used to be kind of peel off plastic is now paper. And that handle is a woven handle instead of it being a plastic handle. I believe it's a woven... I don't know what material it is, but I don't think it's plastic. I think it's an actual plant it i think it's a uh an actual you know plant material of some kind um and that's the idea people can correct me if i'm wrong but like the idea here is they're trying to get um bad contents out of their packaging and there's still places where there's like a plastic wrap thing but um i remember when they were talking so much about their environmental stuff a few years ago and then I would get my review units in and there would be plastic everywhere and I think well you

guys are still using a lot of plastic in every one of these that you sell and they they have been working on that which I think is you know it's it helps I think and like it's even the Mac studio right they have a kind of I saw some unboxings, like basically a cardboard shock absorber, right, in the base of the box. It's like stuff like that. It's like instead of using foam or whatever, I think it's really cool. For sure. So the panel itself is fantastic, the display. I was immediately struck with the richness in the colors

compared to the LG display that I was using prior. You know, I wasn't using one of the ultra fines or anything like that. I don't even remember. I don't know what, what color gamut it had. Um, but you know, this is a Mac with the P3 color, you know, and it, you know, obviously it's similar to, uh, my iMac display, but just in the environment of using my MacBook pro in that desk with, you know, it was just like, oh, wow, this looks much, much different. I decided I'm going to try running it on like the default display settings. I usually would gravitate towards less space. So like more space, I should say. So I had more space on the display, but I'm sticking with the kind of regular because it does look the best.

You know, I was originally thinking to do this because I've gone down from a 31 inch display to a 27 inch display for this desk. But instead I'm just trying to get used to it because really it just looks best that way. That's true. Not doing any scaling or anything like that. Running a little native resolution there. Yeah, but the panel's great. You know, like there isn't really much to say on here if you've used

you know any imac years it's imac or imac pro the most recent ones the original was a little bit less of a panel but the um but the the last few years it's been this panel and uh yeah that's yeah that's absolutely right i wanted to mention to mention something about the panel that came up. Somebody tweeted at me, Andrew Nelson. He pointed out, related to a completely unrelated CGP Grey thread about giant spiders in Hawaii, which we're not going to talk about. But this display has a laminated screen, I believe. So it's like the panel is laminated. It's up against the glass.

so it's like the panel is laminated. It's up against the glass. What this means is theoretically I couldn't get a spider in my screen like I did way back when, in 2017, when a spider crawled between the panel and the glass on my iMac. I don't think, I think this is a, I can't say it's a spider-free display, right?

The spiders could crawl around. There are holes. There are holes in this. There are holes because there's vents and fans and stuff the fighters spiders would have to fight against the uh the airflow but uh the key point is it couldn't happen like it happened uh to my 5k iMac where i woke up one day and there was like a little dead spider um in my screen where i just had to look at it until I got it fixed. So thumbs up for lamination is what I'm saying.

And yeah, I didn't really think about that, but I guess that's one of the things that makes it look so good too, right? It's just like the pixels are right there in front of you. Like, I like that. I like the look of that a lot. So it's a subtle thing, but it makes a big difference for just how good the panel looks. Obviously, I'm using it with my, you you know the way i've got it set up i've i've had a thunderbolt dock the cow digit

dock for a while that i was using with my display and i've done some rejiggering to use the dock still because i have a bunch of things i want to plug in it's a mixture of usb-c and usb-a devices so the cow digit dock has that because obviously this display just has three USB-C ports that I could use. And I've noticed like immediately lag with my Logitech mouse. I use the Logitech MX Master 3 mouse

and I use the little Logitech receiver that they give you. And it just was not working very well at all. I expect that this is an issue with the cal digit dock for some reason because on my i remembered that i had issues before on my lg monitor but the lg monitor had a usb a port on the back so i just put the logitech receiver in there and it was no issue i don't know why logitech do not make a usbc version of their unifying receiver. Still, it's just a USB-A.

I'm going, I've switched to Bluetooth on this mouse for a bit and that's fine. I prefer the receiver. I do find it to be more reliable. So I did just order today at Stephen's recommendation, a USB-C to A dongle and I'm going to try plugging it into the display. But just in general though,

there is some rethinking that my desk requires and i'm not really sure what i'm going to be doing yet like everything needs to be rearranged i don't know where to put the laptop anymore because i would put the laptop underneath the display because the og display that i had clamped on the back of the desk so there was space underneath but now the foot of the studio display is there so i can't put it there so i've been i don't know where to put it you know i've been thinking i wanted to get one of those 12 south things you know like the that stands it up but i saw some reviews online that was seeming to suggest that they even though they claim they have like an insert in their book arc it's called for

the 14 inch that it's a little too tight so i'm not sure if i want to go with that option i have some rethinking to do for how my desk arrangement is going to be i'm not sure if the cal digit dock will remain because i don't really need a thunderbolt dock i need something it's just usbc and there are lots of usbc docks out there that are labeled typically as travel things but they're much more simple and i might go in that route eventually um i'm not sure yet i haven't decided um but i will say that overall even with this rearrangement required my desk looks so much nicer with the display on it this display it's just a good looking piece of computer hardware way more than the big lg ergonomic display um i had the lg ergo

display um on there before that thing is just not a good looking computer but really all of this has been like the main reason i wanted this display is that when i plug in the cable to my like you know i'm still having like i'm still plugging my macbook pro into the cable that goes into my cow digit dock and then that dock goes into the thunderbolt like port of the display so i can still use everything as normal but i plug that cable in the monitor turns on immediately every single time without fail and i did not have this experience with any other monitor that i was using previously and it drove me crazy every single day as I had to plug and unplug something

to get my monitor to turn on and like and sometimes it would only take one cable for me to unplug sometimes it'd take multiple cables sometimes I'd have to open and close the laptop sometimes I wouldn't

I didn't do any of that just laptops closed plug in the cable press either you know one key on the keyboard or I click the mouse and the screen comes on and I'm ready to go. And that's exactly what I wanted and that's what I've gotten and I'm super happy with it. The height adjustability of this stand is excellent. It's really smooth. Something I did notice is it does wobble. Like when I'm typing,

the display wobbles. Now again again this is normal to every display that I have used that suspends itself in some way what I will say to people is if you think that this is something that would bother you do not get this version of the display get the one with just the tilt stand and get something to put it on

like if I'm typing and I'm not an aggressive type but I'm typing the desk will move right like you you you put bounce in the desk and this the monitor picks it up right like the monitor shakes a little bit again i'm very used to this now but you know any monitor is going to shake when your desk shakes though so it's way more pronounced it's more pronounced okay so like i would say it's probably akin to if you use a VESA,

like it would probably be pretty similar if you use a VESA suspended monitor. But this is like, this is not something that I notice at all on the desk that I'm on right now, where I've got my iMac sitting on top of just a stand. Because there isn't so much of a residual wobble afterwards. And I mean, the thing's not going wild, but I just know how particular Mac users can be, right? Some people, yeah.

And if you wouldn't have thought this was a thing that could happen, I think it's a good PSA to remind people that it can happen. But the height adjustability is a must for me. I got my ruler out too. Scales and rulers I've been dealing with over the last couple

of days so my imac the bottom pixel edge right so like if you imagine from where the screen ends right yep that is 15.2 centimeters to the desk the reason i say it that way is like the the actual bottom of the computer is 8.5 centimeters to the desk but it has the chin right yeah exactly so an iMac the 24 inch iMac sitting straight on the desk that's how high that's like kind of 15 centimeters 50.2 centimeters from the desk is where the monitor begins and now I have to put mine on a little stand because that's too low for me the studio displays a comfortable height that measurement is 19.5 centimeters. So it's like 4 and a bit centimeters

difference. That to me is the level of this is comfortable to this is uncomfortable. That's good. Also if you do a I don't know if you have a sit stand desk but you usually need to adjust the height when you change

configurations too, or at least a lot of people do. That's one of the reasons I have my monitor usually on an arm is when I go to standing, I need it at a different height. Yeah. And now, I mean, and now I have this, right. And it really is great. Like it goes, you know, there's a lot of variation in the height that you can get from the display stand, so I'm really happy with that. The second thing that I was intrigued about was the webcam flickering. Now, here's the funny thing about this. When I open any app for the first time that uses the camera, I get the flickering from my overhead lights,

as I had prior to macOS 12.3. If I quit the app and relaunch it, it's fixed. This is not the behavior on my iMac or on my MacBook Pro. And it's not when you engage the camera the first time because if you go to a different app, it also does it? it happened in facetime i quit facetime i wrote some notes being like oh they've ruined it doesn't work and then i open facetime again and it happened for half a second and then it fixed itself then i opened zoom same thing i wonder if there's something in the background that's basically doing flicker detection per app.

It should be doing that. Because there are other, like Logitech's cameras can do this, right? Like other cameras do this. They recognize there's a flicker and then they fix it. iPhones do it. So I've seen it happen on iPhones before. Like it recognizes it's a flicker just for a second and then it adjusts something in the camera. So you stop getting the

flickering from the from the lights i don't know why it's that it's happening i mean it's very strange but then it fixes itself so it's odd i now know that it happens i give this recommendation to people out there who are getting one of these and have a similar situation to me um just quit the app and start again and the flickering will stop very odd but in general i mean i share the same feeling about the camera as many reviewers it looks worse compared to my macbook pro and my imac in my opinion the colors are really washed out i look and everything looks really smooth i look like an oil painting. actually see what it's doing probably wrong which may be the thing that they fix in software which is he was in it he had one shot where there's like the blacks are blacker and that you can see

some shadows and stuff and then on the studio display webcam it's like it's trying desperately to have there be no blacks in the display or in the screen at all and it's trying to like lighten everything and get him to be completely the same it's's like low dynamic range. Let's smooth this out as much as possible and have as little dynamic range as possible. And it does actually feel like the processing is making bad decisions. Let's flatten this. And when I got in a lower light situation, even when we were doing our webcast the other week, at the end of it, where I dropped the blinds in my office and turned off some of the lights and, uh, or even when I turned on the really bright lights, it started to look weird because it was trying to flatten everything out. Um, so some of that

is an effect of taking a portion of a, of a wide angle camera and adjusting it, not having as much resolution. Um, but I do think some of it is that there it's making some bad choices about what you think your picture should look like and it's like i want a really artificial and maybe this was like what they thought like this is what people want for their web their their video conferences right is a flat uh you know no contrast no shadows as flat and and smooth as possible. But you go too far down that path and yeah, you look like a painting. I've also experienced the weird center stage thing

where it feels like the camera person stopped paying attention. Sure. Where you move and it takes a long time and then it's like, oh, there you are. Which is, again, not what I've experienced with iPads. And then my favorite thing is that when you turn it off and the framing is way too high yeah yeah it's like suddenly it's like you're peeking in from the bottom of the screen it looks like you know bring your child to work day yeah i don't know what they were thinking about that that that it's the way it's it's framed it's so weird because it's not it's not

you know it can see my whole body or at least my whole you know sitting in a chair upper half uh when it's in center stage mode but when i turn it off it's like no i can only really see up to your you know from your nose up it's like well why did that why was that chosen as the off crop for this display it seems so strange and of course there's no setting because a nice thing you could do is say, when I turn it off, here's what I want the crop to be, or give me a little UI where I could sort of drag out. I don't want to use center stage, but I want to choose what my crop is. That's the beauty of having this wide angle lens is that you could actually sort of choose. No, it's just going to give you your eyes and eyes and uh your your head top of your head that's

it so it's i don't get it kind of it's a comparison you know if i turn if i use the webcam on my imac it's almost kind of like it's looking down on me a little bit but i still see my head and most of my shoulders if i turn off or like i open photobooth because center stage doesn't work there it's basically like just the three quarters of the top part of my head is all you see and it's like what is going on like this is such a weird very high crop that it's taken here because yeah i don't yeah i don't know what they're doing very well um you know look i share the same thoughts as most people out there reviewers listeners apple is doing just a very bad job with front-facing

cameras in their computers and i kind of can't believe we're still having this conversation it's just not acceptable anymore like they have to do a better job and especially on something like this when there is room right like i understand the argument a little bit more for the laptops because they're really thin. These monitors are thick. You could put a lot of hardware in there if you wanted to. They've just chosen not to. And whatever they're prioritizing to deprioritize the camera, I'm very confident it's the wrong decision today.

Yeah, I think they've been getting a lot of feedback about that, which is good because that is one way that they change things. I have a couple of theories. One is, and I know I talked about it before. I wrote a lot of feedback about that, which is good because that is one way that they change things. I have a couple of theories. One is, and I know I talked about it before. I wrote a Macworld column about it. I think they get caught up in reusing their tech. And so they had the center stage camera from the iPad. And they're like, oh, people love it. I'm going to put it in this $1,600 display.

And maybe the context of a computer display, people had higher expectations for quality um and and also that they chose they they prioritize and again i can argue this because i really like center stage and in most of my lighting conditions the camera looks fine but here's the thing they they could have put let's just say it they could have put a 4k webcam in there and they prioritize center stage because they're like yeah you know actually the lower quality they prioritize center stage. Cause they're like, yeah, you know, actually the lower quality camera with center stage is better because we, because we think it's better or because we invented it or because we are, our plan is to reuse this or, and I think this is a theory that might be true. We're going to stay, save the more expensive part for our more

expensive display that we sell for $2,500, right? Because I think maybe that product is coming. And that this is the bottom of the line display. But I agree with you that I think the reaction shows that Apple's assumption that the center stage camera would be good enough in this context was probably wrong or at least a little misguided and that that a lot of people expect expected something better and that it was the wrong trade-off to make now i really like center stage and i'm glad that it's on the mac but uh and i'm a little mystified why a 12 megapixel like a 12 megapixel, like a 12 megapixel camera facing you, that's like, that should be really good, right? But it's, something is going on here. And I know it's wide angle, so it's grabbing a lot of pixels that it actually can't use most of the time. And that's part of their decision-making

process here. But yeah, whether they got caught up in their own excitement about center stage, or whether they're actually withholding a better camera for a more expensive product. I think I would argue that that would be a mistake, too, because this is a $1,600 display and you really ought to prioritize that. And I mean, I'll throw in the heap, Mike, the Apple's. I get the laptop limitations, but yeah, on the iMac and on this display. I get the laptop limitations, but yeah, on the iMac and on this display, I also am disappointed about the fact that we have Face ID on iPhones and iPads. And they haven't done that on the Mac either. And that's also disappointing.

Last thing I wanted to mention is the speakers. They're pretty good, but it kind of doesn't really matter to me. I'm just happy to have speakers on my monitor again. I guess I didn't. On my LG display, I didn't have speakers. So if I wanted to play any audio, I would either plug in my AirPods, I would play it very quickly on my closed laptop,

which actually was better than I would have expected it to sound. The speakers on the MacBook Pro are so good, they break through the closeness. Or I would use AirPlay to my HomePod mini. None of those are as good and as useful as just having good speakers built into the display, which I didn't have on the display that this replaced. So yeah, I would say all in all,

for me, this was worth waiting for. And I'm really happy with this product. It is not perfect, but it does most of the things I need better and or to my level of expecting with just a few things that they've fallen down on but honestly with the camera being the main issue for me i expected that yeah and it shows and this is the thing that i think gets missed um atp did a good segment about this where they they've tried to explain like why why the retina resolution matters

to some people and why if you're in the apple ecosystem having an apple built monitor that sort of looks nice and fits in with stuff and is tested to work so you plug it in and things charge and things work and all that like there is value in that and this is i wanted to do a little tangent about the reviews of this product and the subjectivity of reviews in general because you know bunch of these reviews are, but there are other monitors that are cheaper, which totally misses the point that this monitor is filling a niche that previously only the ultrafine filled. And I would prefer a world where there was lots of stiff competition to make displays at the resolution that Apple has defined as a retina resolution for the Mac. And the problem is there isn't. There just isn't.

Nobody else did it. There's just the UltraFine. And now this product is there, and it is an Apple product, and it is better in a lot of ways than that UltraFine, which wasn't that much less expensive than this product. And that has a value. And it doesn't matter if you care about that stuff, it doesn't matter that you could buy a cheaper monitor that's at a lesser resolution because that's not the product you want and that's not your preference on this. Also, I find perplexing some of the reviews that complain that this monitor isn't another product that doesn't exist. Quinn Nelson recently did a video on his

Stansy Labs channel about this display, and it's largely him complaining. And Quinn is great. I love him. I love his videos. But that video is basically why isn't this a $2,500 micro led display, which I would argue. That's a good question. That would be an interesting product. Apple may be making that product. There are rumors that Apple is making that product. That said, this is not a $2,500 micro LED display. It's a $1,600 display. And at least personally, it doesn't change the fact that a whole lot of people have been falling over themselves to buy this display because it fills a need that has been so poorly filled for seven years when Apple said, we're getting out of the business and we're just having LG make a monitor. And that literally is the only one that kind of fills all of these needs other

than the $6,000 display. A lot of us, and I'm speaking for myself here too, if they made a $2,500 micro LED display, I wouldn't buy it. I'm not spending that money. I'll buy a $1,600 display and I have $2,500 display, something like that with the cutting edge tech in it, yeah, I know how nice it would look for my needs. I'd really rather have a $900 cheaper display that is this display. And if you boil it down beyond that, what you end up with is essentially the argument that I wish it was cheaper, which you can make about literally every apple product ever made which is like yes would i rather that this monitor be a thousand dollars sure that would save me six hundred dollars i would like it to be ten

yeah i mean they should just it should just be bundled with the studio you'd get buy one get one free uh so so that's not again, like you can make that argument. I wish Apple stuff were cheaper. People have been making that argument literally since Apple started. And guess what? Apple isn't going to make it cheaper for you. They're not. They just they like money and they know people will pay extra for the Apple stuff.

And so they will. And that's what this display is. So in the end, I think a lot of these reviews are basically like, I can't believe that Apple people are so focused on Apple's level of design and quality and the resolution of the display that they're willing to spend $1,600 when they could buy something that is lesser, but it's stuff that, you know, whatever for cheaper. And I don't know, it's kind of the classic Mac versus PC argument, which is all this stuff that you guys care about, I don't care about. And so why are you buying this thing,

you're dumb, or you're cultists, or you're suckers that have been conned by Apple's marketing. And I'm not saying that if you don't want this display, and if you like those other displays, there's anything wrong with that. I know a bunch of people who have non-apple non-ultrafine external displays with less resolution and they're fine with it that's fine i have a problem with somebody looking at a product that a whole lot of us have really really wanted and yeah we wish it was a little bit better and yeah we wish it was a little cheaper, but it fills a thing that has not been fulfilled really by anything for seven years and say, all the stuff that you care about doesn't matter just by a cheap display. Because what kind of argument is that? And that is a function of some of the reviews of this product that I don't appreciate because they are discounting things that some of us care about.

And just the existence of a cheap monitor does not mean that everybody should run out and buy a cheap monitor. This is, I wish there was competition for Apple. Don't get me wrong. I want somebody to make this display or a version of this display and sell it for $800 and totally undercut Apple. But guess what? Apple tried that seven years ago. Didn't happen. So this is what we're left with is something from Apple that does everything that Apple promises that it does other than maybe the center stage should have been better. But you get what I'm saying?

It's like it is the Apple monitor. And yes, it does cost more than we want to pay, just like everything else Apple makes. I'm glad it exists. And a lot of people are very glad that it exists and will buy it. And the existence of cheaper monitors that don't do what this monitor does, doesn't change that. The imagination of a dream monitor made of cutting edge technology that costs another thousand or fifteen hundred dollars doesn't change what this product is. of a dream monitor made of cutting edge technology that costs another $1,000 or $1,500 doesn't change what this product is. So I think you can be critical of some of the choices Apple

made in this product. But I think that there are a lot of people who go beyond that and start to say, well, why would you ever buy this when you can just buy a $600 Dell monitor and be fine? It's like, okay, yeah, I could buy a HP laptop for $500 too, but I don't. This episode is brought to you by FitBod. Between balancing work, family, and just about everything else you've got going on in your life, it can be hard sometimes to make fitness a priority. What you need is a program that works with you, not against you, and that's why you need FitBod. Because the great thing about this about making it a priority, for me, I can speak from my own experience, making fitness a priority

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25 off our thanks to fitbod for their support of this show and relay fm so your uh studio max studio mounting system came in right your new shelf is that what it's called system it's quite a system it's a it's a uh a plastic uh or i got loose. I don't know what it is. Acrylic, let's say. This is the newer technology, new shelf dual mount for the Apple Mac Mini 2010 to current. It is currently available. Only one in stock. I think we've done a run on this.

Yeah. And they said more coming soon, which I think is interesting. Available normally $44.99. Currently a cyber saver for $24.75. Probably by the time you hear this, they'll be sold out of this. Basically, Otherworld Computing made a thing that was the size of sort of two Mac minis because they sell a bunch of newer technology branded mini sized like hard drive enclosures and stuff like that. So you can make a stack. I used to have like a mini stack hard drive that my Mac mini sat on.

And so they made this acrylic thing. And it basically is the size of these two stack Mac minis. And it has four holes and screws. And you screw it under your desk. And then your Mac mini is under your desk with that hard drive attached. And guess what? It fits the Mac Studio. Not perfectly.

It's got a hole in the bottom, and the idea there is that there's the little bump on the bottom of the Mac Mini, and it will sort of like drop in. And it's a little too small for the Mac Studio to drop in, but it's fine. It fits fine. It's got little tabs on the back. fine it's fine it fits fine it's got little tabs on the back steven hackett was really concerned that if you tried to plug in something on one of the front ports all you would do is uh shoot your mac studio out the back end and that there are little tabs there to kind of hold it in place so it doesn't do that uh but it's uh completely open on the front and the back and there's enough space in there for there to be actually some airflow on the sides as well and the top and uh

so i bought one just to try it out and i put it under my desk and that's where my mac studio is now it's actually under my desk uh toward the front so i can plug into the front ports or put a card in the sd card slot i can reach behind and press the power button if i want to do that it's all kind of reachable if i just kind of lean over a little bit um it's it's it's nice um somebody sent me a link to somebody who is making a 3d printed mac studio uh under undermount and it looks nice because it's going to be to the exact specifications of the mac studio um it is 3d printed so it's like it's going to be a little kind of textured plastic thing which is fine what i really would like to see so i've got my usb interface audio interface

in something that's made for like i don't even know what some pc uh something um but it's like a little metal shelf um and that's what i'd really like to see is somebody to make a uh and these are undoubtedly already being fabricated but like a metal version of what um what owc did for the mac mini that is exactly the size of the mac studio or you know with some room but fits it and the ones that are out there on amazon today are all a little too big or too small. Because I think a metal one would make me feel better than this acrylic one. But it seems perfectly stable and it works. It's funny because it's not the product it's meant for. But it does work.

And I would be shocked also if OWC wasn't working already on like a new version of this that actually uh that actually fits the mac studio but in the meantime they are making hay with the uh with the the new shelf dual mount made that they made you know years ago and have been selling discounted and it's suddenly more relevant than it was i also expect that somebody like 12 south is going to come up with a bunch of mac studio accessories at some point that are that are also very nicely designed and a little more expensive maybe than you'd like, but they're so nice that you end up buying them anyway because that's their bit. But yeah, it's great. It's so nice. You talked about your desk layout.

After a couple of weeks with the Mac Studio on my desk, I really like that it's under my desk now. I really like that it's under my desk now. My desk just feels that much more open and there's really only two cables running under my desk or running over my desk. There's the power cable for the display and then there's the Thunderbolt cable that goes from the display to the Mac Studio, which at the moment is running forward

over the front of my desk because it's the Apple one that's only a meter long and it can't go the other way. So I also bought a two meter long Thunderbolt cable for way more money than I would like. For a million dollars? Yeah, for $10 million. Wow, $10 million.

Yeah, but it's really good. It's really good. And so I'm looking forward to when I get the face amount display next week and I'm gonna be able to run those two cables over the arm and everything else will be hidden away. I'm looking forward to that. That'll be great. But in the meantime, it has been fun to get that thing under my desk where it feels like it belongs.

The sheriff of Roomerville, Mark Gurman, is reporting that Apple is currently working on building an entire infrastructure to provide financial services. This would include, quote, payment processing, risk assessment for lending, fraud analysis, credit checks, and additional customer service functions, such as the handling of disputes. This adds even more weight to our discussion about credit kudos last week, not being for the Apple card, but for something else. Mark mentions that this effort effort is focused on future products rather than an Apple's current lineup of services. So there is this one, you know, this,

this idea that they're going to convert the Apple, the iPhone upgrade program, which is a loan. And then you can you know it's structured that way into a service that would be administered by apple where you'd pay a monthly fee and there's also this like paying for installments thing which apparently is coming to right because that's very very popular right that's a trend that i i don't i know we haven't discussed it, but these services that allow you to pay four monthly installments instead that are very popular with the youngs, that Apple's going to build its own

version of that too. And this is all, I know we talked about this a little bit last week, but this is exactly what you would expect from Apple, even though this is an area where you're like, really? Apple's going to build financial products? It's like, yeah, but what is this really? This is Apple starting something by finding partners and then realizing all the strengths and weaknesses of the partners and saying, we could build our own version of this and keep it all in-house. And they apparently are doing that. They're going to build their own financial structure. We joked about it with the Apple card, but now I'm really wondering, can the bank of Apple be far behind? Even if nobody can get an account

at the bank of Apple, it would not surprise me if Apple just continues to build things and requires... If you have all the money in the world, you might as well do something with it. What else are you going to do? Just start using that cash to secure against lending like why not you know go for it i don't know what this is gonna look like honestly like you know obviously i can read what marcus said but like do i imagine them to actually have bank accounts like i don't know no i mean i i wouldn't um although you know in some ways they they have apple apple cash is kind of. Also, I'll point out Apple Cash only in the

U.S. still, right? And I wonder if some of this is they use the U.S. as a test ground and they're like, okay, if we want to build this out, we can either partner with different partners in all these different countries or we could just do it. And it makes me wonder if that's part of this too, is that they're just going to roll it out and they're going to take care of getting in every country and rolling it out instead of finding partners and having to negotiate.

It's probably hard too, right, to find a willing partner who is willing to do what Apple demands of them. It's harder though, Jason, to get banking licenses. So I don't really know what their plan is. It is, but it depends on what licenses are required to do what. Or what they want to do. It's true. And that's the case.

It was the case with their carrier rollouts too, right? The advantage they had there is that they had a product everybody wanted. So yeah, I don't know. It's fascinating. It seems like they really got to the point where they realized there was a bunch of stuff that they felt either they were they could make more money doing it in-house or that there were things that they the products that they could not easily create by working with partners yeah and so they've decided to just go ahead and build some financial services functionality inside yeah it'll be interesting to see what form it never discount apple's allergy towards working with other companies as well right oh absolutely i

think that's number one on the list right which is is we have to use a partner and like if you see the benefit of using a partner it's different but there's also this feeling and i suspect this happens a lot at apple which is we have to use these guys they're slow they don't think like us they keep trying to do shifty stuff that we don't like. You know, it's just it feels like a very much what we would expect from Apple, which is that they'd rather go it alone if they can, if they think that it's important. And this is the thing is I think they've decided that the financial aspect of what they're doing is so important that they really ought to own as much of it as they can. Audio Hijack 4 is available now it is i know you've been very excited about this over the last few months and you've been up to all kinds of shenanigans do you want to give the upgradings a little overview of what's new in audio hijack 4

yeah so audio hijack 4 it's an update i think the last version of audio hijack was released a long time ago it was like 2016 something like that Hijack 3. So it's been a while. This is a paid update. I don't know exactly what the paid upgrade price is, but it's an update. And it's big. There's some stuff that's just about the look and feel.

It looks a little different. It's got a light mode to go with. It's dark mode that it always had. It is $29 to upgrade. $64 to purchase. it is my favorite audio utility on the mac yeah it has a new master session list that's way better than the old one the old one was a bunch of squares um the new one is a compact list that shows you what is being captured for each item and shows you the current status of each of those sessions and there's a button there to turn them on and off so you can like fire off different sessions from right within that window. It's a way better

and more useful window. And then there's also a corresponding menu bar item that shows you all the same things. And like most UI elements in Audio Hijack 4, they're all popovers with a tear off. So if you want the menu bar to be on screen all the time as a floating window you can you can basically tear it off and have it just floating on your screen yeah and you can do that with any item like if there's the live stream one the broadcast block you want to have that visible all the time you can just tear it off and have it visible all the time which is pretty great i like the sound of that a whole bunch of stuff like that i haven't upgraded yet i would have had to upgrade

today and i didn't want to do it before the show like i mean you really give the show its name if you did that but it's it's probably unsafe that seems like a bad bad upgrade you know you should test it first yeah i want to just make sure i've got all my stuff set up properly because i'm going to tinker with things right so i don't want to tinker with things and then not set up my recording block and then just don't record the show so that would be the bad upgrade bad upgrade this is good this is a good upgrade um they have a couple new plugins which if you know they have a compressor and a magic boost and these are things that like to level out the audio if especially if you're live streaming if you you know one person's louder and one person's quieter and all that you try to level

it out but one way you can do that is by using a plugin to do that. And, and, and audio hijack didn't offer that. So you would have to get an external plugin, a third party plugin to do compression and all that. Now, audio hijack has rolled those in. So if you're doing a live stream, you can put the compressor block before the broadcast block and have it flatten everything out. And it sounds better better and then magic boost is like a compressor but it only makes it louder it makes quiet things loud it doesn't make loud things quiet um so you choose how you want to use those but those are like having a compressor and there's a big deal it was really a missing piece in version 3 and while you could add it using a

third-party plug-in it's kind of nice that it's just part of the app now. I use something called AU Multiband Compressor. What is that? Yes. That is an Apple audio unit that comes with Logic. Oh, okay. Right. Yeah, so it's a third-party. I mean, it's Apple, but it's like a non-audio hijack audio unit. Yeah, I've swapped

in Compressor for my third-party plug-in. I think I was using Core of Pressor, and I'm just using the Compressor. Yeah, we had a lot of trouble-in. I think I was using core of presser and I'm just using the compressor. Yeah, we had a lot of trouble for a long time where I was always quieter than everybody else before Audio Hijack offered their live streaming. We used to use Nicecast and it was just really hard to do it.

And then when Audio Hijack did their thing, I could use this compressor, but I still have to tinker with things a little bit and boost my audio and stuff like that. So I'm looking forward to trying that out. And let's see, manual connection mode is another big one that people requested. And this is, so the interface Audio Hijack has is, it's super clever. Krista Mergen designed it for Audio Hijack 3. And it's super clever. It's blocks, little blocks, and you arrange them and it kind of goes left to right. And it's super clever. It's blocks, little blocks, and you arrange them. And it kind of goes left to right. And it's like a flow chart.

And you see the connections between the blocks. And if you want them to connect differently, you move the blocks around and you just watch as the connections get made, which is great. Except if you have very particular connections you want to make, sometimes you end up playing this kind of unpleasant video game where you have to move things around. And like, if I move it down here, does that, nope, that doesn't work. If I move it over here, oh, I need to move all these things to the left a little bit in order to get this thing to the right so that it wires up correctly. So

it's a really great feature that I've used all this time. But I also accept the fact that sometimes it can get very complex where you have to move things around in space, essentially, in order to get them to connect right and you're like i just want these two things to connect why don't they connect and the answer is now there is manual connection mode so when you go into manual connection mode you can literally like click on one block and then click on another block and it makes a connection between them this was one of my biggest feature requests personally like yeah because now because i the my audio hijack windows are a certain physical size that they don't need to be they could be smaller like i could actually

make the window smaller but then i can't see all of the blocks so but if now that with the the manual connections i can compress everything much physically smaller because i don't need there to be so much space between everything so they don't accidentally attach to each other right exactly and you can also set it up in automatic mode and then flip into manual connection mode and edit it a little bit so you can like do if you want to you can have it do the automatic work first and then you can fix it and and it's all it's all fine and then when you flip back out of manual connection mode it rewires it so don't you know don't do that but uh but you can keep it in manual connection mode, it rewires it. So don't, you know, don't do that, but, uh, but you can keep it in manual connection mode forever if you want to. And that's,

that's part of it. And for people who want more control, they can do that. And then the big thing, the reason that I got so excited about this is that audio hijack three had literally no, uh, scripting or automation support of any kind to the point where I was, I was desperately trying to automate some of my podcast to the point where I was desperately trying to automate some of my podcast recording stuff. And I was doing these things where it's like a keyboard maestro macro that opens Audio Hijack and looks at the window and tries to detect what's in the window and what's in the menu bar. And based on that, is it recording or not? And can I open by double clicking in the window, I can open a session and then I can press the recording button.

It was really bad because it was all based on looking at what was in the menus or trying to look at literally the pixels on the screen. It's not great. I got it to work sort of, but it was not great. And then part of the not greatness of it was that it couldn't easily tell the current status. Like, is this block actually recording or not? Um, because just pressing a button,

if that, if it is recording and it presses the button, it stops the recording and it wouldn't easily know the status. You could, you could, it got very complicated. It was very painful. Well,

version four, they're scripting is the version is the, is the story they're scripting. They built a JavaScript, uh, control system. There's a JavaScript API. And there's even a scripts window inside Audio Hijack. So you can do things like, when you start a session, run this script. Or when you stop a session, run this script.

And they've got some samples. There's some very clever ones. Like if you stop a session and there's a recording that's like less than five seconds long, throw it in the trash, which I really like because sometimes I'm testing stuff And I'll end up with all these little audio files. And you can actually just say no, no, no, just throw this away. I don't I don't need short recording files, I only want the long ones. So that's all in there. But it's not just accessible from within the app, it's accessible from outside. And it turns out there are a couple of ways it's accessible from the outside. One of them is you can have a JavaScript script in a text file and tell Audio Hijack to open it and it runs it. And there's a preference, by the way, there's a

security preference you have to turn on for external scripts to run. So if you're concerned about that, they made a checkbox that you have to check in order to turn on this feature. But that means that anything like a shell script or an Apple script or whatever, could write out a JavaScript command and then have it open. And it's a little circuitous, but it totally works. And then the other way, shortcuts. So shortcuts on the Mac debuted right as they were, I think, starting work on Audio Hijack 4. They knew it was coming. They, I think, probably had been working on their JavaScript stuff internally. And I think JavaScript is probably the way to go. I mean, a lot of apps these days, that's the scripting, internal scripting language that they're adopting. It'll

work on iOS. It'll work on macOS. Omni uses it for all their scripting now. I don't love JavaScript, but everybody knows it and can get around in it and it's fine. But they added shortcut support and they have three shortcuts actions right now, which is not enough, by the way, but it's a start. And the shortcut actions are start or stop a session, run a script that's in the script window in Audio Hijack, run a script that's in the script window in Audio Hijack, or run this JavaScript, where you can literally just put the JavaScript text in the shortcut action and say, run this. And from that, you can do almost anything because you can turn sessions on and off. You can turn blocks on and off. You can get information back. Is this session running? What session is running?

You can ask it for information and get information back. And then once you've got the state information, you've got a lot of power to do automation. So that's all great. Yeah, I would say one can do anything, you know? Well, yes. Not you personally. Not me. And this is my complaint about it.

And I think this is the starting point. And I think that Rogue Amoeba is going to look at what people do with this and figure out where they need to go from this. But there are a lot of one, two, three line JavaScripts that do things in that you can get information out of shortcuts, right? But you have to do them as these little JavaScripts. And I think that's where they're missing a piece that they need to add is they need to take a whole bunch of common things that you might want to get out of Audio Hijack and make them individual actions. And even if all that's happening behind the scenes is that you're firing off things into the JavaScript interface, not everybody, first off,

not everybody is comfortable with JavaScript and I'm not even comfortable with JavaScript. So having them be a shortcut action that says, tell me what's recording right now. Like that's a, that's a three line JavaScript, but like, wouldn't it be nicer as a shortcuts user if you didn't have to do that in order to find out what was running? And then you build on that. You have other things that are

common use cases where they can build an action and roll that action into shortcuts. I'm pretty sure they're going to get there. But right now, other than turning things on and off, you have to use the JavaScript action. I'm going to write, I wrote an article on Six Colors about this. I'm going to post at some point some basically like subroutines that you could use that are things like tell me what's recording right now. Because I think it's really useful. It gives you back a list of what's recording right now but that should be that should be built in they should add all of those and i'm i'm hopeful that they'll do that in updates as they go but the good news about this

is that because they put that run a javascript into shortcuts if you're willing to get your hands dirty with javascript you can basically do almost anything you want with the app with a few exceptions. There are some things that are not wired up yet that I think they're also going to add. Like Dan Warren and I were talking about how I'd really like to be able to use the automation to look at my calendar, find out what podcast I'm currently on and update the contents of the, um, of the live stream to say the name of the podcast, the contents of the of the live stream to say the name of the podcast because it changes

and you can't change that field in scripting right now so wait for that one you could do that with shortcuts though you could add in a shortcut section to do that no but you can't you can't tell using the javascript api for audio

hijack you can't say change the name of the broadcast block to this. Ah, okay. That part is not accessible right now. So I can do the rest of it. Shortcuts could read it, but it can't write that information out. Exactly. Yeah, that's my point.

And a lot of it's there. You can turn most things on and off. You can flip switches and stuff. You can change the file names, which is kind of cool, but you can't. There are a few edge cases like the metadata in the broadcast block that they didn't i imagine that is a an update feature that they'll add but yeah the big one is the next step they need is to demystify the shortcuts experience because there are a lot of people who are going to use shortcuts who are not comfortable in javascript me yeah because Because there's some... The stuff I would

want to do, I think, would be pretty simple. And I have faith, the fact that they've put their foot in this, that this is just the first step of it, and they'll add more. Because I figure they must have known, right, that, like, if they did this a little bit, it was just going to get people

like me and you saying, please continue doing more like i i think they're smart enough for rogan beaver that he knew that but this is like adding this in is is the first step like i think it does make the most sense of like just see what people do of it and etc said and then they can write their own right i think that's i think that's going to be the answer is that i think they decided rather than making assumptions and also they wanted to ship this thing right so they did the catch-all, which is run this JavaScript. And it's, like I said, it's entirely functional. You can do a one line. Most of my

shortcuts do this. If they send a one line JavaScript to audio hijack that says, what's the status of this session? It's basically, is this on or off? Or I think it asks like, is it, you know, I think it's, is it on or off? And it say it's running or it stopped. And then my script reacts to that. It's like, oh, well, now I know what the current status is. I will react differently based on that. You can also ask it like, is that block turned on or off or whatever you have that ability. I think in the long run, they're going to hear from people like me and they're going to, they're going to get this feedback as sort of like, how are people actually automating with this? And because they created that JavaScript thing, it's like kind of punting on the whole issue.

It's like, well, you can do anything you want. You just have to use JavaScript for now. And then over time, they'll realize, okay, these are the ones that we're getting the most requests for. How do you do this? How do you do this? How do you do that? And then hopefully they'll start building out a little shortcuts library. I expect most of the shortcuts actions will be things that are fairly straightforward JavaScripts that, you know, basically like,

but I don't want to, even as somebody who is using that interface, I don't necessarily want, every time I want to do a thing in Audio Hijack via shortcuts, I have to go find my shortcut that has that script snippet and copy it out and then go back to the other shortcut and paste it in. Because, you know, I don't remember it off the top of my head.

I have to get the terminology exactly right when I would have preferred to just drag in a shortcuts action that says do this. So we'll see. I think it will progress. But it's a great start and it's led me to all sorts of wild stuff that i can do so like i have a generic record podcast recording thing um that i use for most of my podcasts which is just this it's called podcast lossless it's a it's it records zoom it records my microphone it saves the files to the desktop and i built up a thing with shortcuts and keyboard maestro where I have a button on my stream deck.

And by default, when it's not recording, it's actually the Audio Hijack logo, which has got a black background. And when I press it, it starts recording and it turns the button into like an orangey red active state. Like I'm recording now and I can look down and know that I'm recording. And then when I press it again, it toggles it back off. And that's a fairly simple automation, but it's great

because it's basically giving me a one button record and it knows the state. So it is not going to light that button up unless it knows that it has just turned it on. Whereas all my old stuff was like, press the button. And did you just turn it off? Who knows? I don't know.

Now it knows. And then I have some more complicated ones that I detail in my Six Colors post where I've got kind of a three-way switch for the incomparable. Because we have three states for that where you go you're not streaming live and then when we turn on the live stream we're not ready to start yet people who listen to atp live have heard this too where it's like we're playing like some music in the background you can't hear us we're just kind of warming up the live stream while we get our our act together and then you flip the switch and the music goes away and you hear our voices and the recording start and that's all automated now it has been for a little while actually while i'm in beta so i

press the button and we go live with music i press the button again same button and our voices appear and all the recordings start and then when i put press that button a third time the live stream goes off our recording stop and we're done. And the little button updates along the way too. So lots of possibilities, big and small for automation with Audio Hijack for podcasters or people who do live events or pretty much anything else. You can record like audio from video. I do it all the time with Audio Hijack.

Video conferencing if you need to record something or play something like there's so many different things you could do with this so so yeah it's it's great to see it this is this is a i know it's not for everybody but for me and most of the people i know in the tech world we use audio hijack all the time every day to do all sorts of complex and simple tasks and so having it be connected to shortcuts in any way is a big deal this episode is brought to you by our friends over at bombus we love really love bombus here because their mission is so simple to make the most comfortable clothes ever and match every item sold of an equal item donated. So when you buy Bombas, you are giving to someone in need. Bombas designed their socks, shirts, and underwear

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and get 20 off your first purchase that's b-o-m-b-a-s.com upgrade for 20 off that euro one last time is bombas.com slash upgrade our thanks to bombas for their support of this show and relay fm socks jason i have some updates for you on reader apps, dating apps in the Netherlands. Oh, my favorite things. All of our favorite things. I like reading. I've been to the Netherlands.

That's all I got. I guess you liked dating at one point, but that we're done with that. No. No? No. Jason never liked dating. Kind of like Apple. I don't think Apple likes dating.

No. At least they don't want... Anyway. Kind of like Apple. I don't think Apple likes dating. No. They don't want... Anyway, Apple has published an update to the rules surrounding dating apps in the Netherlands.

So a few things... Please stand for the reading of the rules. Now, you'd be standing a lot if you were with all of these rules. They keep changing them. So developers will now no longer be required to submit two separate binaries to the App Store. This was previously required that if you wanted to use external payment methods or link people out you would need to have a version that just used apples in that purchase and then the second version now you no longer need to do

that so to read from the developer notes like the update this change means that developers may include either entitlement in their existing dating app but still must limit it to use in the netherlands storefront and on devices running ios or ipad os so that's good right that's a good start right because then otherwise you're some of these companies are probably even the next five years have gotten themselves into a situation where they had 20 apps that they were updating for every country that requires apple to do this this actually surprises me because i thought this would be one of the ways that apple would just inflict pain on people who wanted to go outside of their system but perhaps they felt that they were going to get in trouble for not being part of the spirit of i don't know jason

i think there's more going on here that we might get to a little bit later on i don't think that this is i think this is for nothing other than Apple have worked something out, but we'll get to that maybe in a little bit. They've also softened the language that appears in the dialogue that users see before making a payment with an external provider. They've also changed the requirements for how often it needs to be shown. So it previously stated that this would be required before every transaction. So every time a transaction was going to be required, even though you're going out and paying something new or paying for an in-app purchase, whatever,

they would show this sheet every single time. And I'll read the language of it in a minute. But the new rules say each payment flow where the user would make a purchase until the user taps the continue button on a per device basis. Now, the way I read that is you only see it once. Once you've seen it that one time, the next time you want to make a purchase, you just make the purchase. Apple don't show you the screen that makes you agree to the fact that you're not going

to be using their app payment stuff. I don't know. It's until the user taps the continue button. Well, I guess if, because you could press dismiss. Okay. Because you have two options to either continue or to not do it. And my reading of that is, if you say, I don't want to do it, the next time you do it, you'll be shown it again.

Oh yeah. But once you tap continue on that device, you won't get shown it again on that device. That makes sense. That makes sense. So I had to use the Wayback Machine to get this, but the dialogue used to say, this app does not support the App Store's

private and secure payment system. All purchases in the app will be managed by the developer. Your stored App Store payment method and related features such as subscription management and refund requests will not be available. Only purchases through the App Store are secured by Apple. This is the this app may kill you

language that we talked about. Yeah, we had some real problems with this. I was very upset about this because it's this this kind of inherent like this like implied language that the only secure payments are Apple's payments, right? The modal now says this app doesn't support the App Store's payment

system. All purchases in this app doesn't support the app store's payment system all purchases in this app will be managed by the developer you will no longer be transacting with apple your stored app store payment method and related features such as subscription management and refund requests will not be available apple is not responsible for the privacy or security of transactions made with this developer big thumb thumb up from me. Much better. Way better. It's not this app will kill you. It's like Apple has nothing to do with what you're about to do.

Good luck. Also, by the way, refunds? Apple, you don't do those. That's not a thing. But it's funny to me that it's in there. There are weird ways in some places. You can't request a refund from developers, though. You have to request it from Apple.

So they're saying this is a feature, right? Which is like, look, when you subscribe with Apple, you have a subscription management page with all your subscriptions. And when you ask for a refund for an app,

you do it through Apple. Now you're going to have to go to the developer to do it. But this is much better. You may actually have more luck at getting that refund, which is a funny thing. Because Apple do not like it.

Yeah, this is much better. Way better. It's much more factual and clear, right? And it's not suggesting something wicked this way comes, right? Like, it's not doing one wrong. This app may not kill you. Obviously, there have been no changes to the

27% fee that Apple is going to be enforcing on developers and new add- Netherlands that use this. There's no changes on how Apple requires reporting or any changes to the audit rights that Apple has on the developer. All of that I still have a big problem with. And to round out this part with the Netherlands, currently Apple's fines for not complying with the ruling given by the Dutch regulators have passed 50 million euro because they've been charging them 5 million

a week as of recording because usually there's been like these fines get added every Monday but it happens at some point on Monday or Tuesday they listen to Upgrade and then they do it like we remind them because it actually genuinely

happens not too long after we finish recording, which is a funny time for the Netherlands, really, because it's past the end of the workday. But a couple of days ago, the regulator gave a comment to TechCrunch saying that they will evaluate this proposal from Apple to see if it meets their rules. I actually am not even sure if a lot of this is to meet the rules.

But again, we'll get to that in a bit because there's also, Apple's very busy, they have finally released the guidance around the external linking for reader apps that was agreed as part of a deal with the Japan Fair Trade Commission back in September 2021.

I cannot believe it was that long ago, six months ago. So this is all intended to be just for managing or creating accounts, right, with reader apps. So these are your Kindles, your Netflixes, that kind of thing. Some of the stuff that they've shown, of course, there is a modal dialogue when you click one of these links, which says you're about to leave the app and go to an external website. You will no longer be transacting with Apple. And then it's basically the same stuff as before about

subscription management, refund requests, etc., etc. I got some helpful... Luckily, The Verge went through a lot of this stuff, and I was able to crib from them. So thank you to Mitchell Clark at The Verge. Apple have a list of requirements that apply to the link itself that they give, that someone will click. The link must open in a browser.

It cannot open in an in-app web view. There is no additional data or parameters like tracking stuff that can be passed to the website. And your app cannot contain text explaining how much things on your website will cost, which I guess means you can charge whatever you want, right? So it can be cheaper on the website, but you just can't say it. You can't say it. I think this is...

So initial thought for me was, wait a second one link it seems like a waste and no additional data or parameters seems like a waste but here's the thing the way this will functionally work is that it will go to a page that is the page that you go to when you come from the app the first thing it's going to do is have you log in and then it's going to display whatever is relevant but you can also create this wouldn't just be log in or create logging in or creating the point is what you're going to do is is end up in a state at least potentially where that where safari on your device is um logged in on that page. So this is less onerous, I think, than I originally thought because the smart services will, you know, once you're logged into that page, you can display whatever you anticipate people

coming from the app will see. So in the end, you're probably going to get a tap here. Like I'm in the Kindle app and I'm logged in and I tap here and it'll display my purchases or it'll display things I want to buy. What it doesn't get you is I'm looking at a particular book and I want to buy it. And then I tap and I go to that book page on Amazon because that's not allowed. But you can tap and go and get your account page and go from there. So it's not terrible because it's not like it's opening not knowing anything of who you are to the homepage of the website. But it's also not allowing the passing of data for things like, so you want to buy this book. Tap here to go to Amazon's page for this

book where you can buy it. It's not, that part is not allowed. Well, here's the thing. Remember that one link thing? Like, as you mentioned, the one link, there is no reference to one link in this entire documentation from Apple. Now, I think there's a reason for this. They actually explicitly say you can provide multiple links for different use cases or languages. I think what they are trying to get across

and what they're still trying to get across is that there's only really the use cases that they are permitting, which is create a new account, manage that account and you have to provide every link to them to review and it has to meet yes like in every place you're putting it and what they will also review where it's going to and then apple have they haven't again they don't really seem to have stated too much about what's required on the web

pages but i'm sure that's like a, we'll have that conversation with you. You know, like I imagine there'll be a bit of to and fro because there's not going to be a lot of companies that will be able to take advantage of this, right? It really is going to be mostly the companies you would expect. Like there aren't going to be a lot of small companies, I think, that are going to be able to really use this to any great effect. No, there aren be a lot of small companies, I think, that are going to be able to really use this to any great effect. No, there aren't a lot of small companies making reader apps to be clear.

Exactly. But the original announcement stated one link. The phrase one link is not mentioned anywhere in this documentation. Obviously, they got feedback that there are lots of, but what about this?

But what about this? We've got two different kinds of things that happen and we have different languages and we can't pass data. So how do we do that? And so Apple seems to have said, well, you can support multiple links as long as there are four different use cases or languages, as you said, and then we have to approve them. What it doesn't mean is, again, I can't tap on a book and go to that book's page on Amazon because that is they're not going to approve a link for every single book. And really what they're saying there is that is passing data or parameters.

And that's not allowed. It has to be a generic request. It can be a generic request for this is for my account options or this is my sign in or this is I have a problem or whatever the use cases are, but not for like individual transaction items. They're not going to let you do that, which is what, you know, that's what Amazon would prefer, right? Is the Kindle app could show you, you could search for books in the Kindle app and find a book you want and tap and it would open Safari to to that page with a big fat buy now button and you can't do that in this scenario so remember at the moment both the dutch uh dating app thing and the reader app thing the reader app thing is worldwide even though it was just a decision with the japan fair trade commission they applied it worldwide i'm actually not sure why um i guess this is just

to appease the large companies that they're dealing with here. And for whatever reason, Apple doesn't care about match.com. It's just like you would just do this in the Netherlands, nowhere else. Remember, this is an entitlement that they have to apply for. And then you get to do certain things.

And entitlements is a little bit above my pay grade, but it's like you are granted the ability to put something in your application that ties into a private API that other people are not allowed to use. This is the same with CarPlay, this is how CarPlay works. But there was a note in the documentation that says, Apple is developing a new external link account API that will provide the in-app modal sheet. Once this new API becomes available in a public release of iOS and iPadOS, you'll have 30 days to adopt it with the next update

of your app. In the meantime, you'll need to build this modal sheet by following exactly the design specifications provided below. So I have a couple of questions about this. Why are they not just waiting until this is available? Right? Because we've already waited six months.

Why are we doing this impromptu available right because we've already waited six months like what you know why not why why why are we doing this like impromptu this sorry just like um uh intermediate step fines fines i think is the answer right well but this is separate to to the dutch to the dutch dating but i i think this is so that apple can say look you can do it now we're not holding anyone back. It is Apple demonstrating something that they have not demonstrated up to now in some ways, which is them saying, look, okay, but it's going to take time. We have to do a whole thing.

We have to build an API. And now what they're saying is, look, we're building an API, but don't say we're dragging our feet. If you want to replicate our guidelines today, go ahead. Replicate our guidelines today without the API, and you can do it, and we'll let you do it. But we're also going to work on a thing

that's a lot easier to implement. But if you want to replicate it in the meantime, go ahead. We're not standing in your way. And I think that that is a posturing thing, not necessarily about Dutch dating apps, but it is a posturing thing to regulators to say, we're not dragging our feet here. You can do this today, but you're going to have to do the work.

We're doing the work for you. That's not ready yet. You can do this today. And I think that's clever in some ways because it's Apple basically saying, don't blame us. saying don't blame us um and also apple knowing it's unlikely that the spirit of i don't know about the spirit when a judge says like in the dutch dating case do this apple what they're saying is apple be permissive and what they're not saying is Apple, you will immediately furnish the thing you like to furnish, which is a bunch of developer APIs. That's not what they're saying. They're saying be permissive. And this is Apple saying, we are permissive now. You can do this. Here are the

rules done. We worked on all that we really need to do is give you the rule book. We also are going to do an API for developers. That's going to be good, but we're not standing in your way. And I think they're sending a message, right? Which is, you know, anyone who wants to do this now, we're going to let you do it now. We're not going to let our implementation of the API be the gating factor. And so don't blame us and say we're dragging our feet even though they were dragging their feet yes so it gets them it gets them out of the way of that yeah i you know and they're saying within 30 days after we release the api you got to rip out all the work you did

and then use our api anyway but in the meantime you can you can do this but like that feels very much like a message to the courts which is we heard you you don't like us waiting for the api this is so funny to me right where it's like they came up to this deal six months ago and now they've released the entitlement ability but as soon as they come up with this api they will require everyone to do it in 30 days yes rip it right and i just find that so funny right like we'll take as long as we want but but again it's the it's the it's the letter in the spirit right it's them saying um oh we're not standing in your way if you do a bunch of extra work and then rip it out later you can do it right

now but i i think that is you know i think that a lot of courts might look at that uh or regulators and look at that and say okay fair, fair enough. Because the argument here is like, should Apple have to furnish Amazon with all the code to do this? If Apple didn't want to ever do an API for this and posted the guidelines, would that be contrary to the spirit of what's being asked for here? I would say it wouldn't be. It's not Apple doing an API for it is really not part of the regulation. The regulators aren't saying you must provide an API. They're saying you must allow

people to do this. And so Apple is splitting the difference a little bit, but it is saying, look, we're not standing in the way of doing it now. Here are rules. We will agree to this,

but we will do an API because that's the best way forward. And that will ultimately allow Apple to completely control it and not have to patrol what these, you know, API mirroring things are in the meantime. But it's just I think it's a fascinating little bit of strategy where it sort of is removing the waiting time for the API from the equation in terms of an impatient government or judge looking at Apple saying, come on now, like, come on, you're just, you know, you're just delaying here. You're just stalling. They're like, no, no, no. People who want to do it now can put in the work and do it now.

We'll be here later. Yeah. When I read this, I was like, oh, I wonder if this is part of a few things, you know, if this is part of a few things you know like to to different apis for new systems here i like i like this i like this approach i mean i within the context of apple's dealing with these regulations i like to see apple doing this because i do think it's a smart move for them to say because okay first off apple wants to build build an API for everything. And they want to have a whole system and they want to have it be measured and careful and considerate and put it out for developers and say, here's the right way to do things. And it turns out the courts just want Apple to move.

So how do you reconcile those two things? This is the answer, which is Apple can do rulebook real fast. Not fast in real world terms, but in Apple terms, they can come up with a rulebook a lot faster than they can roll out an API in a shipping version of the OS. So this is their

way of dealing with that, is build it today if you want, we'll have an API later. When we do the API, you got to adopt it. We're done. But overall, I would say the language that they've landed on vastly better than where they were before.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, they're not. And again, I wonder, like you were saying, I wonder what happened behind the scenes here, right? I wonder if somebody somewhere on the outside, I doubt it was on the inside on the outside was like you gotta stop with the scare language that's we are not happy with you trying to dissuade users it needs to be neutral language somebody somewhere said that i assume

they just got a lot of pushback you know like like from people in the media like me and you and and many other outlets and also the developers that they're writing this stuff for just like yeah this is too much you've gone too hard like way too hard you gotta pull it back a little bit you know yeah or maybe but my guess is maybe you know maybe there's somebody in the in one of these uh areas where apple is negotiating with them about like is this enough enough? Is this enough? Said, we want neutral language. This is not neutral. And maybe they pasted in a bunch of links to like The Verge and other articles saying, see, everybody agrees. You're trying to scare people.

And that's not what we are asking for. We are asking for you to have neutral language. You can state the facts about your subscription thing and your refunds. You can state the facts, but to imply everything but you is dangerous is not neutral. So I just, I mean, maybe I'm being cynical here and they decided themselves that this was better language, but I don't think so. I think they got, I suspect that somebody told them you can't do this. You must be more neutral than this, but the net result is the same, which is the language is better. They're not telling you the app is going to kill you. They're just saying you're leaving Apple. And that's what it should be. And again, I applaud the idea that they're going to make the behavior available faster and not make everybody wait for the API.

the behavior available faster and not make everybody wait for the API. Because if I was a judge on one of these cases and Apple said, well, okay, we'll put it in our internal process. And in September it'll be available for people. I would be like, no, I told you now,

and I'm willing to be reasonable here, but I'm not going to give you six, nine months, a year to drag your feet on this. And so their new policy here seems to be better in that regard too. This episode is brought to you by DoorDash. Did you forget that one thing at the store today? Well, now you can get snacks, drinks, and household essentials in 30 minutes with DoorDash. DoorDash connects you with the restaurants you love right now and right to your door, but you can also get these essentials that you need of

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25% off your first order with DoorDash, subject change, terms apply a thanks to DoorDash for their support of this show and RelayFM let's finish out today's episode with some hashtag ask upgrade questions got a couple of studio display related questions just thought it would be a nice bookend for today's episode Sekku

asked this one to me Jason Mike, given your recent escapades of Apple support with your screen technology technicalities of AppleCare Plus this is my very scratched and I believe cracked iPhone which Apple said is not cracked and they won't replace it even though I want to pay them with my AppleCare Plus

they said did you spend the extra on AppleCare Plus for your studio display and I will say no Sekou I didn't because I have pledged to myself that I'm never getting AppleCare again. Interesting. I'm not going to do it anymore. I never, Mike, you know I never buy AppleCare. Yep.

I bought it on the studio display. Fair enough. I decided that if there was ever an Apple purchase where I was like, I don't know, I kind of want them to have a lot of time. I've changed. I used to decline on everything. Extended warranties and all of that. I found that I'm now targeting certain

technologies and product types where I'm like, I kind of don't trust this product. I'm going to put a little more in and I never do it, but I did it for the studio display. I've just decided I'm done with it a little more in, and I never do it, but I did it for the studio display. I've just decided I'm done with it. I've never used AppleCare, and I've got it on every iPhone

for years and years and years on all my devices. And the one time I wanted to get a replacement for my very scratch screen, they told me it's not counted, even though I think it should be. So I'm done. I'm done. I'm done with it, and I'm not going to get it anymore, and I'm just going to done i'm done with it uh and i'm not gonna get it anymore and i'm just gonna save the money instead of paying for their apple care and i'll just get i'll just do deal with it myself with getting the repairs done because i'm fed up with it i also have that

spider that one time and so i'm really kind of concerned about my displays now i'd like it makes i'd like this display to last a long time of course the apple care plus doesn't last a long time but i i did do it for that. I also bought an extended warranty in another product this week, but I'll talk about that at another time. Maybe it'll be an upgrade plus segment. I don't know. Oh, interesting. Mike asks, I never worried about a monitor becoming obsolete before its end of life.

With the studio display having an A13 chip, do you think that could be a valid concern? I don't. It's just, in the end, it is designed to be a dumb display. I know it's smart, but it's actually designed to be dumb and transparent. And so I don't think it's going to be an issue. I think you'll be able to plug...

I mean, will software updates stop coming for it? Sure. But a dumb display doesn't get updated either yeah right it either works or it doesn't there'll be some features eventually that you won't be able to use but that you just won't do those use those features like there'll be new features like any product right yeah i so i think i think it's not going to be a big deal i think you'll be able to use this for a long time, and it will be fine. It is a good question, though, right?

Because it is different to imagine a computer inside the monitor. That is a very different thing. Yeah, it's just, I mean, the difference, though, is that in the end, what's really happening is it's meant to be opaque, and it's not like, oh, boy, we're going to update the software. And as people have pointed out, Apple has had firmware updates for its monitors before yeah eventually this the display reaches the end of its updating life but it's still just a display i mean of all the devices i have i still have a bunch of ancient displays around me in this office

that all work fine with even with modern hardware if you can get the adapters right and and so like i've got a flat screen that was my first flat screen display at work like i don't even know how long ago that was a whole long time ago and i'm looking at it right now and it's plugged into like a raspberry pi and it works fine it'll plug into a laptop it's not retina and it's very small but it works so i i i'm not concerned about it at all and brian asks i just realized actually it's firmware because it's in the middle of software and hardware is that why it's called that yeah i think i i think the idea with firmware is that yeah it's it's yeah it's software for

hardware so it's firm where it's not quite it's not quite as loosey-goosey as software um yeah i find that like a funny idea you know you just never really think about the etymology like the words you know right where it came from yeah i know that's absolutely what it is it's somewhere between soft and hard. That is hilarious. Tofuware. Consistency. Brian asks, do other members of your family have user profiles on your Macs?

Or do you have a profile on the Macs that others own in your family? No. No, I don't. No, I don't. No. I don't have this either. this actually this is not entirely true when my kids had laptops and they were younger i had they had no admin privileges and so i had

an account okay and if there were certain things i don't think that counts but they came and brought them to me and said daddy you need to put in your password now for the to approve this app that i download and i'd be like whatever are you downloading and but like that was part of it And he brought them to me and said, Daddy, you need to put in your password now to approve this app that I downloaded. And I'd be like, whatever are you downloading? But that was part of it. But my son just got a MacBook Pro to take to college. And I set it up with him having a user. And I don't have a user on that computer.

And it's fine. That would be complicated if you still had all the admin privileges on that laptop that you take out of college. That would be difficult for him at some point. I only had profiles on, yeah, to do parental control kind of stuff, and I don't do that anymore, so that's it. Yeah, because I guess it is a kind of like, that regard is like a parental control or a purchasing thing, you know, like in an Apple family app store thing.

Yeah, no, I've never done this and wouldn't imagine it i i think um at least you know with me and adina we have our own computers we just want to use our own computers right like and if for any reason one of us needed to use each other's computers it's not to the level that we need our own user on it you know what i mean it's like i'm just going to use this to search something real quick i don't now need our own user on it you know what i mean it's like i'm just going to use this to search something real quick i don't now need my own login to this computer don't begrudge other people for doing it like there is you know like i've spoken about the fact that um at some point in the future this imac will become the home computer like the home that you just live somewhere

in the home we might then have our own users on it. Yeah. You know? But we don't have any devices that we share. That are shared computers. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's, I don't have any like that, but this one would at some point become that. But you're right. I wouldn't mind if we positioned an iMac somewhere in the house to have it be. In fact, the nice thing about Touch ID, right, is you can just log in with your Touch ID and all of that and switch to your profile and but but no we don't have that even does it all

laptops if someone's already signed in and they put their finger on the touch id it switches to them yeah that's so cool that's such a cool feature if you'd like to send in a question for us to answer on a future episode of upgrade you can send out a tweet with the hashtag ask upgrade or use question mark AskUpgrade in the RelayFM members Discord, which you get access to if you sign up for Upgrade Plus. Go to getupgradeplus.com and you can sign up for $5 a month or $50 a year

and you will get longer ad-free episodes of Upgrade every single week. So you get more Upgrade, no ads. Pretty great deal, right? Pretty good. Pretty great deal. You can hear us talk about a TV show that Mike and I both think is amazingly good. And I'm going to give you an appliance

update too. If you enjoy this show, you will enjoy Upgrade Plus and you will also be helping support the show too, which we value greatly. Thank you to FitBod and bombus and doordash for their support of this episode as well we greatly appreciate that but most of all as always thank you for listening and we'll be back next week who knows if wwdc will be announced by then who knows seems like a impossibility at this point but who knows maybe they'll just give us seven days notice this time

can you hey it's next week it is late may the apple community is whipped into a frenzy when will wwc be announced people are taken to the streets with placards that say the end is nigh mm-hmm we'll be back next time until then say goodbye jason snell goodbye my curly