Upgrade - 413: Tall Is Small

Episode Date: June 27, 2022

For the Summer of Fun, Jason and Myke compare their iPhones--one's Max, one's Mini, but which one has the most apps and which one has the most photos? Also, Mark Gurman's got our next 75 episodes plotted out thanks to his detailed dump of future Apple product announcements, Jason is unenthusiastic about the M2 MacBook Pro, and Justin did it.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 413 it is still the summer of fun and this episode is brought to you by fitbard zocdoc and texasander. My name is Mike Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason Snell. Hi, Mike Hurley. Technically, this may be the first episode that's actually the Summer of Fun that's recording in the summer. I guess it was the first day of summer when we recorded last week. Anyway, summer is here. Summer of fun, we all know when it starts.

And the summer of fun is here. Although I guess technically last week's episode should have been the beginning of the summer of fun. Right, but we moved it up because we were outside in nice weather the week before so we'll have some real fun I have a hashtag question for you comes from Brant Brant wants to know Jason what's your favorite

Pixar movie it is I'm gonna I've been saying for a while now and I'm gonna stick with it the Incredibles I haven't watched them all lately to rejudge them but the Incredibles is my is my favorite i like the music i like the uh art direction uh it's just a fun movie like the whole thing about it i just i love it and i love a lot of pecsars but that's my favorite voice acting's great but yeah the overall visual look of that movie ticks so many boxes for me yeah that, that's up there. That's high for me.

My only other one, and I don't have an answer as such, just one of the Toy Stories I'm sure would rank very very highly for me. Sure. But I'm not sure which one. I'd need to watch them all again. But I like all of them a lot. I've only seen Toy Story 4 once but was blown away by

Toy Story 4. It outpaced my expectation for it so that was a good movie if you would like to send in a snow talk question of your own to help open an episode of the show just send out a tweet with the hashtag snow talk use question mark snow talk in the relay fm members discord got some housekeeping jason snell okay upgrade your wardrobe.com thank you to everybody who has so far purchased one of the summer of fun 2022 line of shirts that we've got

running right now we have the brand new summer of fun 2022 shirt which is like beach vibes iphone in the sand, pineapples upgrade logo is the sun beautiful t-shirt I'm very happy about it it came together we also have last year's Summer of Fun t-shirt

designed and art directed by the one and only Jason Snell. And the original Dongletown t-shirts in both navy and orange. They're all available for a couple more weeks. You can find those at upgradeyourwardrobe.com. Thank you to everybody that's purchased so far. And if you haven't, we're stopping you, you know? Don't forget that you can always get longer ad-free versions of this show. It's called Upgrade Plus. Go to getupgradeplus.com and you can sign up. You

become a Real AFM member. You get tons of bonus content. You get longer ad-free episodes of Upgrade and help support the show. We have something new coming for RelayFM members. It's a show called Spotlight. It's going to be hosted by Kathy Campbell, and it's basically an AMA of hosts. So Jason's going to be the first guest. It's going to be coming, I think, later this month or the start of next month, so kind of around the end of June, early July.

And if you are a RelayFM member, you can ask questions for this AMA in the Discord. People have been doing that. It seems like we've got tons going right now. And this is going to be a monthly show with a different RelayFM host every time. And it's going to be hosted and put together by Kathy. So that's a good new thing for RelayFM members,

which you get access to by going to getupgradeplus.com. I know nothing about it other than that i was asked to appear so we'll see how that goes you don't need to do anything except uh what is it a i may ask you need to just a the q's that's what you need to do okay i'll um get my a's in p's and q's in place and mine my a's yeah we'll meet no you don't want to mine the answers you need to give them you know yeah but the the but the p's and q's i will mind the questions and the uh oh the q's and a's they're gonna fly free p previously asked questions i don't know okay if you have money to spend on

either of these things either buying t-shirts with our logo on them or getting bonus content, I would also like to recommend that you donate to an abortion fund. Go to abortionfunds.org. If you don't know what an abortion fund is, these organizations help people who cannot get the help that they need in their area with abortion and abortion-related health care with either resources or finances or advice, and can help them get the care that they need in their state, in the U.S. or others. This is obviously more important now than it's ever been.

I urge you to find out more about this stuff and donate, whether that's money or time. If you don't like that we're having to talk about this, I don't know what to tell you, right? We have to. And especially if you don't like me talking about having to talk about this i don't know what to tell you right yeah we have to and especially if you don't like me talking about it because of my accent again this is the john oliver problem right like i see it as a john oliver all the time it's like well okay i know i don't live in america i know i'm not american however the majority of you are so So here I am. I'll say it in an American accent.

So this will be very helpful. Abortionfunds.org. See? Thank you. American accent. Because, hey, abortions are healthcare. This is not and should not be a political issue. It is the right for everyone to have autonomy over their own bodies.

It is a right. It should be, and I believe it to be, a fundamental human right. Any less is wrong. If you are now opening Twitter or your email to try and disagree with me or tell me I shouldn't be talking about this on a tech podcast, do us both a favor, close the app because you won't change my mind. This is our podcast. Oh, you added this line in here, didn't you? I did. This is our podcast and we say what we want. So if you're sending us a message to say we shouldn't talk about this on our podcast, what we get to decide that we decided to talk about it that's it and also i've been having this thing where people keep trying to tell me that uh how bad the abortion rights are in

the uk they're not we have great abortion rights here in the uk and it's also not a political issue here so this this seems to be one of these like talking points you know like these like great abortion rights here in the UK. And it's also not a political issue here. This seems to be one of these talking points. One person said a thing, and now everyone says it. So don't come at me with that. In fact, as I said, don't come at me with any of it. Just go to abortionfunds.org instead. How about that?

Back to our regular scheduled programming. There are new betas. There are always new betas, aren't there? Yep, we got the beta 2. We were wondering if it was going to happen, right? We were talking about it when we were talking about Stage Manager last time. Yes, and it happened shortly thereafter.

Not a lot of changes in Stage Manager, especially. I think we anticipate more to come. They did add some keyboard shortcuts, which is one of those things that was very much a glaring deficiency in Beta 1, where you would, how do I get these windows to go away or come back or go full screen? There are some, like there's no Command-W kind of closed window thing, which I really would like to see, but there are some new keyboard shortcuts in there. And obviously, people are talking about, like, will Apple change the hardware compatibility, which I'm not, I'm not sure they're, they're gonna seriously consider that, um, despite the fact that people are talking about it, but, um, it would not happen at this point. Right. Because the, the way these

betas work, I don't know if people are aware of this, but like they lock the beta one quite a while before wwdc and then they lock the beta two uh that might even have been before wwdc but certainly like these things are done there's a lag time so um they're working on it but if you're expecting like reactions this is just like safari last year if you're expecting reactions to backlash it takes a little while there is a there's some lag time in there the usual at least i think the more modern expectation is the first public beta which is usually around beta three time ish tends to be the first beta that has actually received post-wwc feedback that's that is the that's what i keep i see people say that and it makes sense to me and keep in mind like they're doing something that requires time to implement so if at beta 3

they know about your feedback if it takes it might take a couple more betas to get the work done right like it's a long process safari was changing all the way up to the end last year all the way to the end so what i would say for people who are very closely following betas and wondering what it means in terms of how apple's thinking like just keep in your mind it's way more complicated and there's a lag and making changes is not easy even if they decide to make them that it will take time the best you could hope for is some vague pr statement that says we'll continue working working on this. I mean, I think that's what they did last year with Safari. That's actually a big disclosure for them that like, no, it's not done. We're working on it. But they're not going to say, oh, we're trying some stuff and we're not sure how it'll... They're

not going to say anything like that. So just keep an eye on it and we will keep an eye on it. And before the show, we were talking about people like us, we do use these things and talk and write about them. And at some expense to our lives because it breaks our devices, but we need to do it. So we'll keep an eye and we'll let you know how it's going this summer if you're not brave enough. If that devil on your shoulder has not whispered in your ear to install the beta then we'll report about it instead speaking of which justin still beta 2 i have it on my iphone uh so we were talking about this last week as part of ask

upgrade i encouraged justin to install the beta on their iphone and they did they did it i said i said justin don't do it that was the title justin did it um did you see that tweet i wished i could remember it exactly but it was another person's called justin and they said that they were thinking about a life decision and then the episode popped up in the in there well it in the end yes this is justin who said i saw this while contemplating a serious life decision thank you for my help i have made the difficult decision not to supersize my meal oh that was it that was it so we're turning off at least one justin turned away from the dark side due to our intervention right there you go a little better for your body you know less salt

or whatever it was going to be more fries whatever yeah you know i went to uh mcdonald's at the airport when we were in dallas on our way home the sizes are so peculiar to me like a small drink it's like it's huge it's massive yeah yeah well i mean there's you're falling into a little bit of a european trap too because you know it's the big u.s thing and then there's the the well that's we have that movie theaters too here it's that idea that everybody wants a medium so you make the medium big and expensive and then people order the medium and they're like this is the medium and it's like yeah well yeah um they should just um make everything starbucks sizes right the grande um eventi whatever it might be a tall tall is small

there is a smaller one but it's not on the menu and i don't remember the name i think it's called short i think that could be short and tall grande and venti short is a starbucks size yeah oh i see what you're saying yeah yeah secret secret size the secret small size is small is uh or short but it's it's also small um i have a friend who orders things in the in terms of like the smallest cup you have or the biggest cup you have like depending on mood so this brings me to my question for you this is mike talk uh which is not a segment that we normally do here but we since we mentioned uh starbucks sizes do you have a go-to Starbucks order? Do you go to Starbucks? And if you do, what's your go-to? Yes and yes.

So I go to Starbucks for kind of two reasons. It's convenience or consistency. So if I'm somewhere new or I'm somewhere where I think the coffee isn't good, I wish I could remember who this quote was, but it's someone famous in the coffee world that says Starbucks is the best thing to ever happen to people that like coffee because you get a consistent cup of coffee always. But what I do is I treat Starbucks the way that I think of it to be, and I will tend to get some kind of flavored, like caramel-flavored drink, whether it's I will either get a caramel latte or a caramel frappuccino, depending on the temperature outside. I just, you know, I don't like the way their coffee tastes,

so I like to just, rather than just put sugar in it, let's put some caramel syrup in there and go wild, you know? So the, and I don't drink coffee, but when I go to Starbucks, unless I'm staying somewhere that doesn't have tea or I haven't brought tea or I haven't been able to make tea, in which case I'll get tea with honey, ideally. But if it's just sort of like during the day, like I used to go write my column, my macro column, I would go on Tuesday afternoon to a local Starbucks and I would sit there and write my column. And it was like my little cafe writing thing. Always the same grande, hot chocolate, no whip, no whipped cream.

Although sometimes I will take that off if I'm feeling special, but usually no whipped cream. I get no whipped cream on the frappuccinos. I don't like whipped cream in coffee drinks. Yeah. Well, and hot chocolate. I mean, it's just more it's just plowing more into that thing anyway but because i don't have i don't if i don't want tea and i don't drink coffee they do make a actually really nice hot chocolate and i've been to lots of coffee

places that make a lousy hot chocolate but the starbucks one is really good i also wanted to mention you talking about consistency that is the secret for a lot of chains is people like well there's you came all the way to our city and you just went to Starbucks. It's like, well, if you don't know where the good fussy coffee chain is, or it's not conveniently located to you, especially if you're traveling, traveling a lot, there is something to be said for consistency. Even if it's not the best, you know, it's going to basically taste the same no matter where you go. And this is an anecdote that I really like from a musician who I love, Bob Mould, who was in Husker Du back in the day and is a solo artist now. And I remember reading an interview with him, or maybe it was

in his memoir, where he talked about Subway and eating sandwiches at Subway. And he says, okay, Subway is not very rock and roll, right? He said, if you're in 40 different cities in the U.S. on a tour and you're exhausted and you just need to eat something before you go to bed, the fact is I can order the same sandwich at Subway anywhere in the United States and it will always be the same. And it's one of those, are you giving up? Is it a give up? Yes, but there is sometimes something to be said for convenience. I'll do that on road trips where it's like, we don't go to a lot of chain restaurants at home, but on a road trip, it's nice to know what you're going to get. And there's a time to kind of experiment and like, oh, let's go to this roadside stand and see how it is. But like, if you're just trying to

stop and get something and then get back on the road, there's something to be said for convenience. So they didn't know I'd be endorsing Bob mold subway strategy um or that we would be talking about starbucks but that's the glory of mic talk the flying dutchman of upgrade segments it doesn't really exist people doubt its existence but then sometimes it just appears it's like it's like the connected quiz it sure is well less way less frequent, way less frequent. Way, way less frequent. That's true. This episode is brought to you by our friends over at TextExpander. When you work in a small team, every moment counts. You don't want to be wasting your time finding video conferencing call details to send to a new client. You don't want to have to track down the same FAQs every single time from the

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That one about video conferencing, super useful. I have all of my Zoom details, like the link and the number and that kind of stuff. I just type ZZOOM and it pre-fills it. So I use this a lot when I'm sending it to people, if I'm doing, say, conference calls, or some of my podcast hosts or whatever, they're like, what's the Zoom info? I'm like, here's your Zoom info. Very easy.

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rumor roundup today. This is the time of year, Jason, where Mark Gurman is going to wrap up a ton of hardware. It's a lot of stuff we've heard before, but he sort of put it in one place. I thought he hyped it up a little much.

He's like, oh, this is one of the most ambitious product slates that Apple is going to release in some time. And I thought, did somebody at Apple tell you that? Because, I mean, it's just a list of everything they're going to release in the next year. I'm not sure how super ambitious it is. It's good. There's a lot of stuff. I did feel exhausted reading it because i imagined all the work that is going to go into reviewing all this stuff i think what the way

because i came away from it feeling like oh it's a lot of stuff and i think the reason for it and maybe what he's getting to but you say probably is overhyping it a lot of this is going to come this year and one of the things that apple's doing is lots of models of the same product and so it's like it feels like there are a lot of products and maybe also some of these things would have been spread out a little earlier in the year but like you know can't make anything right yeah yeah legacy nodes etc so we're gonna go through these and we'll stop to talk about each product as we wish. So again, some of the stuff we knew, but it's good to get it recapped.

And again, some stuff it's like, it's piecemeal across different people. And then when Mark Gummer puts it in this thing, you're like, okay, he's done, he's reporting on it. So anyway, four iPhone 14 models coming this year. Yeah, that's what we knew. Two pro models, they'll have the always-on display. I'm already getting the feeling this is going to be stage manager all over again.

Where it's going to be like, well, why can't my OLED display do the always-on lock screen on my iPhone 13 or whatever? Well, if this feature only is on the iPhone 14 Pro, they even have to explain it in the context

of their own brand new product announcements, right? And I'm confident they'll do it. Remember when the Apple Watch Series 5 came out and they did the always on display and everybody thought, wait, you already had an OLED display. Why can't you enable this across? And they said, oh no,

this required a new display hardware that let us control the frame rate and the brightness in a very specific way. And that's what unlocked this feature. And I'm sure that's what they'll say about the iPhone 14 Pro and the always-on display. I think it's going to be easy to do it. But, like, I know that there's going to be – I want them to be specific about it as much as they can be. I think I saw some people talking about the fact that the ProMotion display on the iPhone 13 Pro goes down to a minimum, I think, of 10 hertz, where the Apple Watch is one. Yeah. And that may be their story, is that we had to do a new screen or a new screen controller that allowed us to take the frame rate all the way down so that the battery life would still be acceptable. And that's why it's only in this one. But like,

if this last announcement has not taught Apple PR something, I would be surprised about. Be very clear about why. And do it in a boastful way, right? You're doing a product announcement, you should boast about, look at this new thing we did that enables this great new feature. Give it a new name. You love to this great new feature give it a new name you love to give screens names give it a new name oh man it's the it's the what would it even be the hibernation retina display or something i don't know what is the current freeze retina display apple.com slash iphone because they have like liquid retina display and liquid retina display xdr all that kind of stuff, right? So what do they call it right now?

It'll be Liquid Retina Display ZZZ because it goes to sleep. Oh. I really like that. It's pronounced snore. I really like that. Super Retina XDR. Super Retina XDR. Well, this will be Ultra retina xdr m and the m stands for

minimal lighting sometimes or something i don't know oh zach has said they also say with promotion at the end with super retina xdr display okay so this will be super retina xdr with promotion and always smart sleep or whatever or eternal vigilance or whatever. Always on Retina XDR display, which is not a great name, but they might go that way, right? Because they call the Apple Watch the always on display. So who knows?

Yeah, sure. That screen will also have thinner bezels, which is interesting. I can't imagine I'm going to notice that, but hey-ho. It will have an A16 chip, a 48 megapixel main camera.'m very excited for that i'm really intrigued i'm really intrigued by that apple improves its camera every year it doesn't do

a megapixel leap every year that doesn't happen very often a long time since they've done a megapixel jump i don't remember off the top of my head but it's many years so i do that story now uh apparently every year which is what's new in the new iPhone based on the iPhone that you've currently got. And so I have to look at the charts and compare all the different versions of the iPhone and sort of tell this story about what's new. And that's one of the things that's jumped out at me in working on that story is the, you know, sometimes they make a better camera with more, you know, you know, more pixels or, or more,

um, focus pixels, or there's a better processor or the, it's a larger sensor, but what they haven't done in a very long time is leave what 12 megapixels behind. So it's a big deal. I'm excited about that. Um,

pill shaped face ID cutout. So removing the notch. And a better front-facing camera with a hole punch cutout. So there'll be a pill shape and then also a hole punch as well. I've forgotten about this. Dot dash or dash dot. Morse code. You can decode which one that is.

Then the regular phones. Way fewer improvements. They're going to have the same processor as the currently. You know, I don't think they're going to get the camera. Obviously, they're not going to get the always on and the notches,

I assume, going to be there as well. The biggest thing that's going to happen in the regular phones is that the mini will go away and then a larger phone, which is a max sized phone, will accompany the regular iPhone 14. So it'll be iPhone 14 and iPhone 14 Max. That's going to be the story in that phone this year, I guess.

I had a thought about, as somebody who's got the 13 mini, if they don't do a 14 mini but they don't change the processor it's like as a 13 mini owner i'll be like okay that's fine you get another year that's fine and it did actually occur to me that if apple is gonna do this kind of like lagging processor thing on the non-pro iphone that they could even do a cycle depending on the sales levels they could even do a cycle where they do a mini one year and a max another year and they just go back and forth um and they keep the the other one in the price list and they just kind of keep rotating through them because how new are they really i mean they'll have some new features but

like if the if the processor is not changing as much maybe they will uh maybe i mean they'll have some new features but like if the if the processor is not changing as much maybe they will uh maybe i mean i'm dreaming here but like you've moved into the bargaining stage it's yeah no i'm i think i'm just still in denial i'm still in denial but they'll give me another year with the 13 although i have to admit the pro model sounds so good that I'm, I'm, I'm curious about the 14 pro, but, um, I'm, you know,

I'm team 13 mini. I hear it's not on a very high, uh, high tier, but you know, that's for people who don't know what they're talking about. Yeah. All people that do,

uh, but probably the Apple watch three watches, there'll be a series eight which is gonna have the same system on a chip as the series seven which means it has the same system on a chip as the series six yeah um mark garmer thinks that there will be a new system on a chip for the next apple watch so i i use my apple watch to do all sorts of things now, you know, and I'm out there doing wireless, streaming a podcast while doing fitness tracking and all those things. And I'll tell you, you know, I'm sure that a new version of that chip would be nice.

I don't feel like the Apple Watch is slow. No. I feel like there's software stuff that I wish that it did that they need to work on. But like if there was ever a product where they could take three cycles off of improving the processor at the center of it, it's probably the Apple Watch. My expectation is they now will update the Apple Watch when they have new capabilities that require a new chip. It's not a performance thing, I feel like. But it's like maybe there's new sensors maybe coming in the Series 9. And so they need a new chip like it's not a performance thing i feel like but it's like maybe there's new sensors maybe coming in the series 9 and so they need a new chip for that or they're going to change

something that would affect battery life or whatever but like if they're not adding anything new then why do they need to change the right i would imagine that there's some features that they really want to enable that they're not able to because they really want that next chip to enable them and i i totally i get it i get it but um i'm not i'm not too fussed about um chip changes i'm i'm more excited that we might finally get our uh you know apple watch uh super sport ultra rugged rugged yeah yeah i'm really intrigued about this so mark's still talking about a rugged model but that's it there wasn't a lot of detail about the watches. There has been rumors still abound that there's going to be a design refresh, but nothing here in this report. There will also be a new SE, same size, new chip. I really want to see the SE getting always on

display personally. I don't know what it's going to take for them to do that. That needs to be a better value product than it is right now. M2 Max. So a Mac Mini is on the way with an M2 Pro option, which feels like a much needed place in the lineup, I think. M2 Pro and M2 Max MacBook Pros are coming, obviously. And M2 Ultra and M2 Extreme Mac Pro. I love that name so much. And I hope they won't,

but I hope they like 80s brand it. You know, like it's like extreme. It's kind of like spray painted. That's what I want to see. You know, I know they're not going to do it, but a boy can dream, you know? Well, I think having, finally having a model that has an M2

with an M2 Pro, right? Which never really happened in the M1 generation. They were M1s or they were M1 Pro slash Macs. Those are your choices. So I like this. And then it's interesting because there's no Mac Studio described here, but I like the idea in the long run

of having kind of the Mac Mini, which has the M2 and the M2 Pro, and then it's got the Mac Studio that has the Macs and the Ultra so that you've got a real continuity of desktop Macs. And then they need to do the same with iMacs and then it all kind of makes sense. Yep. Speaking of iMacs, it seems like the next update might be the M3. Yeah, there's some vagueness in there, but he seems to think that the iMac is not on the M2 priority list. I'm a little surprised by that.

He did say that there is a plan to do a higher-end iMac. So I'm unclear in parsing his words. It might be that that new iMac could be a bigger iMac and it's an M3-enabled iMac coming at the end of 2023 or halfway through 2023. It's also possible possible depending on how you read it it's also possible that there might be an m2 big iMac that's like an m2 pro but that the m1 iMac the small iMac might not get an update until m3 but we'll see that's a lot of there's a lot of m's and then we're tracking it in In the M3 Mac timeframe, it would be an update to the 13-inch MacBook Air, 15-inch MacBook Air,

which we spoke about last time, I think will be a studio, and then also a 12-inch laptop, which is in development. Doesn't know when that might happen, if happen at all. When talking about the M2 chips, Mark mentioned that Apple's headset, he expects it to have an m2

chip in it which is interesting i had just assumed it would have a new chip right right like that like they do with some of the other stuff i just figured that they would want to make something i don't know more custom i yeah maybe but i think that they've got you know they've got their mobile and their desktop essentially chips and that you know they've got their mobile and their desktop essentially chips and that you know do do they need to do another variation on it and i guess this is the answer is they don't i wonder if they looked at the a series and was like that's not enough we'll put m series in here remember it's still pretty low power chip different like a chip that's got way more graphics and neural stuff than raw processing and has a lot of performance cores.

That's kind of my imagination for a makeup of a chip like that, but, I mean, hey, it's a really powerful chip, right? Yeah. Mark also mentioned 16 gigabytes of RAM, which just feels funny in something that you put on your face. It's a lot of RAM to go on the face. It's a computer on your face. That's what it is.

New iPads, confirming a base model iPad of USB-C, 5G, and an A14 chip. iPad Pros coming this year with M.2 chips. And then a bigger display iPad, Mark reckons, between 14 to 15 inches. This feels like he doesn't really know anything about this one. Yeah, or at least he knows sort of vague things but not a lot of confidence about it but there's a bigger ipad in the works

and the details are unclear which is interesting because there was that other report which was maybe ming chi kuo who said that it was not uh ross young it was not ross young or it was ross young because it was display related wasn't it that it was not going to be an oled it was going to be a different kind of display which is is what made us say maybe it's an iPad Studio instead of an iPad Pro because it's a different set of features. The base model getting USB-C too, that clears the USB-C out of the iPad. It's like all USB-C and no more lightning. And that's the direction they're going with everything, right?

I guess, does the Mini still have lightning? No, the Mini's USB-C. Mini's USB-C too. Yeah, so they're clearing with everything right i guess the air does the mini still have lightning no the minis usbc minis usbc too yeah so they're just they're clearing it out um and they'll do the same with the iphone next year probably but um i'll be so happy and then the other thing mark said that i thought was funny as he said there'll be more the new pro models will have more ipads that support um stage manager like basically for apple to say look at all these products we make that do support stage manager i also just like that in this article because again this this this is taken from mark's newsletter so it's more personalized really and he's just in this like i don't like it i don't like stage manager and just a really funny aside to me it's like no i don't like it i don't

think they did a good job but anyway mark's mark's got what's fascinating about mark is that mark is um has good sources and he does good reporting and then in the newsletter especially they want him to insert a little bit or he wants to insert a little bit more of his voice so he has some opinions in there and uh i don't entirely agree with his opinions but uh his sources are impeccable so you know just kind of yeah but it's funny he well he did that one a few weeks ago where he was sort of like really mad because some product he had didn't work. It was like, okay, I guess we're reading about this now,

but it's his newsletter, right? He can do what he wants. You know, this is the different part. I like it. New AirPods Pro, updated chips and stuff, support for lossless. Well, Mark says high quality audio. i'm assuming this is lossless yeah new home pod with yeah how about that s8 chip now that is the chip that is in the watch oh i don't even know. Because that...

Closer to the original in size and sound, with an updated display on the top, possibly support for multi-touch, which is... All of that last part all seemed very odd to me. But I'm into this. I want more than a mini, because I like my big home pods and so i'm happy that they are going back to they're not all mini and maybe

this will be a better priced more compelling product for more people than the original two thumbs up from me yeah and i like the idea so one of the things that i hate about the original home pod is i hate the display because it's just for show it does very little that's useful it's just kind of there for show and remember there were a lot of rumors that it would be an actual display and it ends up it's just kind of like some lights so i i'm curious if they will try to do something that's a little bit more complex than that in terms of the display on top and um and then different touch touch gestures one of the big problems with the home pod i found especially because i have one of my home pods is kind of high up is you can't do it by feel at all because there are little spaces on the top of the home pod to go louder and quieter

and you have to hit them. Otherwise, it doesn't work. And if you can't see them and you can't feel them, you can't hit them. So a multi-touch or new set of touch gestures for a HomePod, I think, is good because I would really like to be able to control a HomePod without having to hit a very precise thing on a device that I might not be able to see the control surface like if you can imagine maybe pressing and winding clockwise or counterclockwise to adjust the volume or something like that or swiping across to do next track or stuff like that um i would think that that would be a better home pod interface and a new apple tv but don't get excited yay

it's gonna get a new chip and one more gigabyte of RAM. It's purely just the usual we're doing things or games are doing things and they need a little bit more headway. We're running out of that old chip, so we're putting in this new chip that we're going to like. Again, this is Apple as a

recycler. They've got products where they don't need to make a new thing for it. They just stick in the old thing. And as they're they they've got products where they don't need to make a new thing for it they just stick in the old thing and as they're managing their um inventory of those things they look and say okay why don't we put the a14 in this now okay let's do that yeah yeah let's do that that's a lot of stuff man i'm excited about a lot of this there's a lot of things yeah all those macs right all the macs are really interesting. That iPhone sounds really good. The iPhone sounds really good.

And the new Macs, we've been talking for a while about how Apple Silicon could really give Apple a chance to redefine the Mac line because it was so defined based on Intel specs before. And they've started to do that. But we're just really at the start of that process now with the iMac and the larger MacBook Pros and now the MacBook Air. But there's more to be done in terms of the chip rollouts and the designs of the system. So it could be a real interesting time for the Mac, maybe the iPad, and then definitely those new Pro iPhones are going to be really interesting. This episode of Upgrade is

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that's fitbod.me upgrade for 25 off our thanks to fitbod for their support of this show and relay fm so there's a new mac in town, the M2 MacBook Pro. Yay! You summed it up so beautifully. We called it out on Connected, called this a classic Jason Snell headline. The future wrapped in the past was the headline that you came up with. And I love it. I love it.

Do you want to, is there anything specific you wanted to talk about in regards to the M2 MacBook Pro? I mean, what I said in the article is that there are three ways of looking at the MacBook Pro, and they're all correct. One of them is it's the debut of the M2, and the M2 is really interesting because it's the first time Apple has done an update to its processors in the Mac. And while that seems a little esoteric, we have been... First question was, what are Apple is going to look like in the mac but the next question is what happens after that how do they then cycle through and do it again and do it again and the m2 is sort of lifting the curtain on that second one is um why does this

thing look like not look like all of apple's other current laptops it is a it is a refugee from the past it looks very 2016 it hasn't gotten any of the updates and therefore it seems really like something from a bygone era. And then the third observation is out of context, without knowing what else is going on in Apple's product line, it's a thin, light, reasonably priced for Apple, powerful laptop. And so like out of context, it seems fine and normal, but you have to pretend that Apple hasn't pushed the other products, other laptops that it makes forward in order to,

to think that way. And all of these things are true. Like again, if you get one of these and you use it, it's not bad. It's, it's actually good. It's just not the state of the art from Apple anymore. It's this recycled kind of old enclosure and old technology with a new chip at its heart. Although, look, I don't want to overstate the caveats because there are a few caveats. There are a few people for whom this product is one that makes sense.

But I don't want to give that too much oxygen because the truth is it's almost nobody. This is a product that I would not personally recommend to anyone because there are better options. There are better options for the same price, the MacBook Air that comes out next month. There are better options in the MacBook Pro line, the ones that are more expensive and a whole generation better in terms of everything about them

other than the chip. And their chip is still faster because the high-end chips of M1 are faster than the M2 base. And I guess if you could get a good deal on an M1 MacBook Pro and you wanted that, that's probably also still very good for you, you know? Yeah, the M2 as a processor is like what we've seen in the March of the A-series processors.

The M2 is faster, but it's not amazingly faster. It's faster. It's got the next generation core from the A15 instead of the A14. It's got the next generation neural engine, next generation GPUs. It's got the video encoders from the M2 high-end. It's got the memory system that the high-end M1s had. And so it's got better memory and faster storage. And it's got lots of things about it. But the fact is most people are not coming from an M1 anything to this. They would be coming from an Intel something to this. And that's where you get your big leap. So the truth is if you're going from an Intel something to a refurbed or cheaper M1 laptop that's still for sale, you're still going to get the bulk of that great leap and save some money. So that's also true.

Yeah. I guess it's price points, right? like this is just it hits a price point that's why this product exists they can't make the 14 or won't make the 14 for what the 13 costs so until they can the 13 exists the more people i talk to about this the more stories i hear about what I already kind of intuited, but I think is absolutely the case, which is this product exists because some people will only buy a product, a laptop with pro on it. They will only buy a MacBook pro. They don't see themselves as MacBook air people. They want a serious laptop and they want the pro. And, um, but I think that when I say people, the truth is it's mostly not people.

The truth is I think it's mostly corporate buyers. I think they're corporate IT groups, and Apple sells a lot of laptops to corporations. And corporate IT groups are like, I don't want the MacBook Air. That's a consumer system. I want the MacBook Pro. They stand behind it. Those are serious tools. And I heard from people who are like, yeah, I asked my company to buy me a MacBook Air and they said, I got you something better. And it was a 13-inch MacBook Pro. And they're like, no, it's not better. But it's got the name on it and the IT people won't buy the Air, they'll buy the Pro. And I think, yes, historically, there are probably some things about buying consumer laptops in general, including not from Apple versus buying ones that use professional parts and are professional

laptops. I think, in truth, there's no difference between buying an M2 MacBook Air and an M2 MacBook Pro once the Air is available. I don't really think there is an appreciable difference there. But the name matters. The name is important. And if you're a company that's standardized on that name and you're not willing to buy that person a $2,000 laptop, well, guess what?

There's a $1,200 laptop that you can get that is also a MacBook Pro. And so I think that's why it's Apple's number two seller of laptops is mostly for corporate sales. And I think that's going to only increase now because at least there was a little more differentiation or a little less differentiation, I guess, in the M1 generation where the Air also didn't have MagSafe. And it also was an old design.

But now the Air is the new design and the Pro 13-inch is not. And so there's even less of a reason to choose it over the air. So yeah, I think it's, I think it's for price point. So Apple can say the MacBook pro starts at $1,200,

even though it doesn't the 1200. I forget exactly what the price is, but it's, it's, it's a low price. And then it's 1999 for the MacBook 14. And so yeah, 1299.

So it's not even 1200, $1,300 is a lot less than $2,000, right? I mean, that's a lot of money. That's $700 on a product that's $1,300. So it's a huge leap. And if you're saying to yourself, well, why doesn't Apple make a new version of the 13 with the new technology? And I have two thoughts about that. One is they did. It's the MacBook Pro 14. And two is if they did it, they'd have to charge a lot more,

even if they did a stripped down version. I mean, the MacBook Air is also though, right? Right. They want to keep their margins for the MacBook Pro. And yet they also know that there's a limit to how many they're going to sell if they push that MacBook Pro starting price up above $1299.

And they're not willing to say you can't buy into the MacBook Pro for less than $2,000. So this product exists. And I think nobody's happy about it. I would argue that the people at Apple don't like this product either. But they have to make it. the people at Apple don't like this product either, but they have to make it even though it's old and it doesn't have any of the stuff that they push forward with the laptops the last couple of years. They're stuck with it because they want to keep the margins and they know it sells and they know they can't raise that price. And so here we are, even though the Air

comparably configured is the same price and is an advanced version of this with the same chip. And yes, battery and a fan, but most people won't care about the differences. And the positive differences are so great. So it's here. It is what it is. I don't know if anybody's going to ever be excited about it, but a lot of people are going to get them. And if you're one of those people whose work buys them a MacBook Pro and you're very excited you're getting an M2 MacBook Pro and you get it and it's this thing, it'll be fine. But it also won't feel appreciably different than that laptop you got in the late 2010s because it's basically the same, touch bar and all.

So the 1299 model comes with a 256 gigabyte SSD. That's what it starts at. Yep. I saw some reports over the weekend that there are some YouTubers who have tested this machine and have realized that this 256 base model has a slower SSD than the M1 MacBook Pro.

It's around 50% slower at reading, 30% slower at writing. Upon disassembly, it appears that this machine... Than m113 yes yeah wow yeah the product it replaces uh upon disassembly it appears that this machine has a single nand flash storage chip where the previous model had two had two so that's why it's slower uh i was wondering legacy notes i don't know like what was the this could be i don't know what the reason is i will say just as a side again that going back to that like the

whole point around this machine i think 256 gigabyte is not enough for a computer today that is a pro machine like i think and yet here we are because of the compromises that are made in order to get this to hit the price point and yeah go i agree i mean and again it's not like it's not like 12.99 even the base price is not a real price right because then you're going to spec it up but it gets you in the door and i think like that it person who's like well yeah i don't like that configuration but then i can do a custom configuration i can get it to 15.99 and i'm happy with that and it's still not $1999. So it's not a real price but it's a real base that allows you to get in.

I agree. I mean everything about this system is compromised. By the way, for the record, I have a 1TB model and I don't have an M113 MacBook Pro to compare it to. So I'm glad people are out there doing that work. Apparently this is only on the lowest. The 256 is the only place where there is this difference in SSD speed.

Right, right. Which is the base model, which you probably, yeah. No reviewers were sent this model. No reviewers are ever sent this model. Shocker. Yeah, no, you're never, well, sometimes you're sent the base model,

but mostly you're not because Apple doesn't want to do that. They want the reviewers to have this great experience. I compared it to my M1 Air. And it's a step up, but it's moderate. And again, I would just hold out for the M2 Air if you're going to go that direction. But most people just, I want to remind everybody again, most people do not upgrade from an M1 to an M2, right? Because that's one generation.

Most people are not going to do that. Most people are still who are going to buy this system and buy the Air. They are coming from Intel. Yeah. And I ran some speed tests on Intel, on my iMac Pro, but also on Lauren's 2018 MacBook Air.

Yeah. Somewhere between six and 15 times times faster not 60 six times faster some cases 10 times faster it is uh that's that's the leap because that's the apple silicon leap and anybody who still hasn't gone to apple silicon a lot of people talked big talk about like oh i'm not gonna ever do the first generation of a chip like if those people are like holding out still well m2 is going to give you everything that the jump to m1 would have given you and more and that's what most people are going to buy but like this laptop it's just not that exciting it's just not got an intel macbook pro 13 inch you should be upgrading to the new macbook air you should not be upgrading to this machine. You will get a new design. You will get new features.

You will get more ports. You get an extra port because if you charge your laptop on this one, you lose one of the two ports that it's got. Whereas on the Air, if you charge your laptop, you still have two ports on it. The true replacement for the Intel 13-inch MacBook Pro.

Because the menu bar creeps up around the webcam you get a better webcam this thing still has the 720p webcam in it yes bad computer get a macbook air that is the upgrade guarantee well it's not it's not a bad computer but it's using outmoded technology that Apple's only selling to hit a price point. And there's another product at the same price point that does this better. So unless you just, again, are in one of those deep edge cases, like just don't. If you're listening to Upgrade, like don't do it. Just don't do it.

Because it's like we were talking about this too, right right like people say like it's got a fan in it which is true but if you are doing work at a sustained level on a macbook pro m2 where you need the fan because of the difference the fan's gonna make you have to push these chips so far you also shouldn't be using this machine because it's not good enough for you like i said those are the edge those are the edge cases if it makes sense if you're somebody for whom battery is the highest priority that you don't care about the ports and all the other things that the air does better and if you're pushing the gpu as hard as that to to make it really throttle on the non-fan based system, I would say to you,

what work are you doing to do that? And could you go up in price? Can you afford to go up in price and get the 14-inch model? Because if you're pushing your GPU that hard, you really should get the 14-inch one if you can afford it. And i'm not sure there are many people out there buying the low-end macbook pro to do graphics work that is so high-end that they that they push it to that limit like i i am again i'm sure there are edge cases i'm sure there are people who can who can barely afford the base model and are going to push it to the limits and are going to be happy with it. But I would argue that if you care so much about that extra headroom because of the fan, you might want to save your money and wait until you've got enough money to buy the 14-inch,

because it's just going to be so much better on every level. So that's why I'm skeptical of how large the edge cases are for this. I want to be fair to the product and say, yes, it does have some benefits, but I really don't believe many people who fit that model exist. I just don't believe it. So it's the summer of fun. So we're going to do something weird today. We're going to do what I'm calling the iPhone stats check.

I have accumulated a variety of things that have numbers attached to them about iPhones that you can get from poking around inside of the iPhone. We're going to compare our stats. So starting out with how many apps do you have installed on your iPhone, Jason Snell? Can we start with what our phone is? Oh, yeah. The greatest stat of all. What is your phone?

Mine's an iPhone 13 mini in blue. That's what it is. I have an iPhone 13 Pro Max in gold, aka the best phone. Sure. How many apps do you have installed? Thank you, my phone is the best phone. Thank you.

I have 105 apps installed. Okay. I have 323. Seems a bit extreme. There's some numbers in here I saw, and I was like, why? Well, once App Library once app library exists right yeah it's all there man not you can just not delete apps and they just are there and then if you turn on the setting that offloads them if you don't use them they're still there but they're not actually there i mean i don't know you can really go to town

because i have a 512 gigabyte iPhone which is important for the next question of how many gigabytes of your iPhone is used well I only have 128 gigabyte iPhone and I'm using 81 well you can only get so much storage in that little phone you know it's small

it's like small chips makes sense I'm using 292 gigabytes of my iPhone storage in their little phone, you know, small. So it's like small chips. Makes sense. I'm using 292 gigabytes of my iPhone storage. That's a lot. I guess when your capacity goes up, your usage goes up too. Yeah. The reason that I went with the 512 is that my, whenever it was that I went from 256 to 512,

I was already starting to push up towards 256. And I'm like, okay, I don't want to ever think about this. I'm just going to go 512. Now I'm on 512. It's going to be a long time before I need to go up from there. When I was buying this phone, I looked at what my usage was on my previous phone and I realized that I couldn't use... 128 would be fine I'll put it that way was not an

issue so I saved a little money one of my reasons is uh I have all my photos and videos saved locally to my device I don't a cloud photo library well I mean we'll get to why in a minute uh but that's one of the things for me like I I have mine and that's a huge. I don't know. I don't need to. I just want to. And so I do. How many songs do you have on your iPhone?

I have 533. I believe this only counts ones that are downloaded to music. I'm expecting so. Yes. I'm at 950. I don't know why, downloaded to music. I'm expecting so, yes. I'm at 950. I don't know why, but that's what I'm at. I think maybe the phone's just downloading a bunch of stuff on its own, right? Because I have the storage space.

I have... Well, what I do is I have a bunch of playlists and stuff that I've marked as download. Yeah. I've done some of that too, but I think the phone's doing it. For airplane trips basically that's exactly why i have mine too yeah how many videos are on your device 2517 right and then obviously this is where the thing is it's a little complicated but like that's not what you've got downloaded but that's just what the device can see yeah so so videos is a

weird one because i was like why do i have that many and i thought do i have tv shows do i have movies why do i have 2000 movies on this little tiny the answer is that this is an icloud photo library number or at least includes icloud photo library and it doesn't have to be local for it to be counted so that includes all the videos that i've ever shot that are in my icloud photo library i thought my number was high which is 697 that includes all the videos that I've ever shot that are in my iCloud photo library. I thought my number was high, which is 697. It turns out it's nothing. It's nothing. I mentioned having all my photos downloaded. I have 15,651 photos on my iPhone. Jason, how many photos are on your iphone 94 000 is that exactly yes that's unbelievable

well i've got news to you i took that picture uh for something that'll be in the pro show today um upgrade plus about um about yes well the pro show is how connected refers to it so i'm just using the the jargon the vernacular um i mentioned as people will hear an upgrade plus that i got some new keycaps for my keyboard and i took a picture i had already done the number so i'm excited to report that having taken the picture of my keyboard and posted it to the members slack i'm now at 94 000 discord and one your name is i don't know i'm counting photos mike i got I got no time for anything but counting photos at this point. My point is, I was at 94,000

when you asked me this question, but now I'm at 94,001 because I took a picture of my keyboard. Unbelievable. And it's iCloud Photo Library. Again, those aren't on the device. They're in iCloud Photo Library, but I just went over to my Photos app on my Mac, and it is a similar, although not

exactly the same, of course, because it's iCloud photo library number. I wonder how big your iPhone would need to be to hold your iCloud photo library database. Well, the iCloud photo library itself is many gigabytes. Yeah. No joke. It's like a terabyte or something. I don't know. It's a lot. It doesn't fit. It's on my server. That's where it lives, in iCloud. How many home screens do you have, including hidden home screens?

One. I have four. I have three, usually, and then one that I enable when I'm traveling, which is like a whole travel cell home screen. Yeah. No, it's a nice idea. which is like a whole travel cell home screen. Yeah. No, it's a nice idea. I like the idea of the travel home screen. I may try to set that up for when I'm traveling.

It's really nice. Because it's a nice idea. And in fact, RelayFM members, I guess, got an email over the weekend with my home screen. After doing that, I had a conversation in a great Slack that we are in and I decided to embrace the Siri app widget lifestyle because what I was thinking is

I don't actually know what... My old home screen strategy is invalid now because of app library and because i use search all the time yeah do i really need anything all the home screen serves now is as a quick access for apps that i don't need to search for because i use them so often that they need to be right there on the top that That's it, right? Because you can just pull down to search and find anything and launch it. So what is that home screen for? And so for me, it's got some widgets on it.

It's now got the Siri widget on it, which shows eight apps that the phone thinks I might want. And then it's got 12 apps that I chose myself. And so far, that's actually pretty good. It kind of knows the apps that I use regularly that aren't visible on the home screen and surfaces them. And if they're not there, then I just do a quick search. So that's what I'm trying now. Yeah, I use the Siri suggestions a lot from Spotlight, you know, like when you pull down it, typically the app that I want to search for is usually in that so i'm not surprised that that widget does well and of my three home screens i'm going to ask this number in a minute so let me just ask this number how many widgets now do you have on your home screen uh well i i put down two but it's actually three because i've got i've

got the widget that is my weather station like current temperature and stuff i've got the widget that is my weather station, like current temperature and stuff. I've got the widget that's air quality, which I wrote. Both of those are ones that I wrote in Scriptable, the excellent app that lets you write your own widgets in JavaScript. And then I have the Siri suggestions app widget right below it, which is great because it is invisible. It just looks like there are eight apps there, but they move when you're not looking. It just looks like there are eight apps there, but they move when you're not looking. So of my three home screens, two and a half of them are widgets. I have 10 widgets across the three homes. I only have app icons on the first one.

I love all of my widgets. I have great widgets. I have Carrot and Fantastic Cow in a stack. I have Timery. And then I have a bunch of Widgetsmith ones, which is like a Time one, a Pollen one, which is really great. I love the Pollen thing. I have some Photos ones. I have an app called Train Beacon that tells me train times and destinations that I need.

I have a Fitness one. I have another Timery widget that's got more statistics than just telling me what the current running one is, and then a Craft widget as well for the craft notes that i use so i do have a couple of widgets that are off um off on the uh left to right swipe i do too i didn't include those in there but yeah they're not on home screens but i do have fantastical out there and the uh and actually the batteries widget is out there too i have I have a lot of shortcuts widgets on that page. What is your battery health percentage?

96%. I'm 97. Good big battery. Good big battery. How many hours have you saved in Overcast? 183. I'm at 318 this is always the one though like I say that number

like that's a big number and then I'll listen to send in there like 200,000 hour ones well we don't listen at 3x what was your total screen time last week um well screen time tells me it was 9 hours and 18 minutes which is

the average or the total? I think that was the total. No, that can't be right. No, it's wrong. Screen time does get things wrong. Well, and I think I've got it turned off in a bunch of places. Okay. I have it on everywhere.

I decided that screen time was a complete waste of my time, and I turned it off. Okay. I have it turned on all my computers, my iPhone, iPad, Mac, sort of kind of stuff, and I'm it off okay uh i have turned on all my computers my iphone ipad mac sort of kind of stuff and i'm 54 hours and 48 minutes which you know looks like a huge difference between the two of us but that's assuming that one is correct uh how many focus modes do you have um hard so i have two that i made yep and then the ones that come with the os i have three that i made there's four total one of them's just one of the ones like a work one i never

adjusted i think i deleted some of the ones that were built into but i have four focus modes how many shortcuts do you have we're too, but I have four focus modes. How many shortcuts do you have? We're not going to talk about our focus modes? Oh, I mean, yeah, we could talk about our focus modes. What are your four focus modes? So my focus modes are, I'm going to the now, so I get all the names for you.

I have do not disturb, obviously. I have a fitness focus mode that turns off notification from absolutely everything. Recording, which is what is on right now, which basically puts me in do not disturb bar a couple of contacts. And then there is a travel focus mode that was supposed to be tied into that travel home screen. But I realized I don't want to be in a focus mode for the entire time i'm traveling because of the way that focus works um currently so i ended up not using that and just manually enabling the uh the home screen i made change to this so now that the focus mode options can now be like a opt-in opt-out rather than just like all opt-in of the apps and people you want to use um i will probably change over.

Maybe I'll, you know, maybe I'll travel. I might turn off Slack notifications or something. Who knows? But I'll play around with that more with iOS 16 for the travel. I have a personal one that I theoretically could use, but I've never used. The one that I have used is I have a work one that essentially is my writing focus mode. And it just just it's gently shutting down a whole bunch of notifications while I'm writing so that I don't get as distracted I

still let people there are a bunch of people and apps that can get through but it's a reduced set so there's reduced distraction but I like the idea of of um of trying to work on like a recording focus mode is a good idea. Yeah, some of those. I need to put some time into those. Yeah, that writing one for you is kind of similar to a recording one for me. But it's very, very, very pared down, my recording focus mode. I like it especially on the Mac, right? Yeah, sure.

It's very few notifications coming through. How many shortcuts do you have? 135. I'm at 51. I recently went through and got rid of a lot of stuff i was at like 200 um and i went through and got rid of tons yeah i mean i've got some stuff in there that i need to get out that stuff i added for the the mac stories um contest like i've got the text adventure still in there i can probably delete that but um and this is not really about our iphones right it's about what's present in icloud so it's it's our shortcuts across devices um so i could delete a bunch of them but i actually do use a bunch of them um and more all the time now that they also

are on the mac so yeah um yeah so it's a lot how many apple notes 860 i'm at 688 I thought I had a lot I don't delete any I assume you don't either I don't well clearly I don't I know people that delete notes like why just leave them there it's like nothing you never know and then you can search them and find them later if there's something

in them you're like what was that so it's funny I don't use notes for everything but I do put some things like when i was testing the m2 macbook pro i put like the scores in there because they sync across devices so if i i take the scores on on a system for a test that i'm running i can either use that system or i can use a different system to note it while i'm running it and they all just sync together in one place. That's nice. Um, I will occasionally do a, uh, you know, jot this down where somebody is like, can I tell you something?

And I'm like, all right, let me just quick open a note and I'll write it down. Um, the biggest thing I use, uh, notes for is, is podcast notes, especially for the incomparable. If I'm watching a movie or TV show and, uh, while I'm watching it, I'm taking notes so that I can know what to talk about. And so my notes is full of that, just packed full of that. How many tab groups do you have in Safari? Three. What are they they are let's look i have one called product which i think is yeah this is a project i was doing where i was trying to think about um building so it's stuff like can i build a new script for my for for one writer or a shortcut that will do faster Amazon, um, uh, affiliate linking?

Cause you know, there was an app for that, but that app kind of sun sunset. Um, so I've got like little project notes in here and also a publishing on Apple news. That's sort of like, am I going to ever convert six colors to use the Apple news format? I don't know if I actually am cause there are lots of issues with that, but that's all like resources for things that I want to look into building at some point. I have something called buy stuff, which is literally products I'm sort of interested in buying, but not right now. And I have a big, it's like six or seven things open in there where it's like like I'm not going to buy this now and it used to be I'd just leave that tab open until

I accidentally close it and then I would never buy it and now I send those tabs to buy stuff and then I have a tab called work stuff what is in this tab I don't even know what's going on in that group that's funny

you don't even know. What's going on in that group? That's funny. You don't even know, do you? Why this isn't always... Well, yeah, there's just banana stuff is in here. The original iPod press release is in here. WordPress REST API is in here. Archiving and version control for Keyboard Maestro. This is a mishmash. Yeah, I think it's stuff that i wanted to keep around but didn't want

right i mean there's stuff like the uh i was thinking about buying a different kind of partition instead of curtains for my office that's in here it's a but it's blog post it's basically junk there's just junk in there yeah i don't know why it's there that's a junk drawer i have seven wow i hope they're better organized than mine yes because i use them all uh like every day i have a relay fm tab group which is just all things though i love about tab groups is i have like this relay fm tab group it has like 25 tabs and it's like anything i could need it's all of link it's like all tabs for all of our publishing tools, our ad tools, the memberful dashboards in there, a bunch of Google sheets are in there for like keeping up with tracking stuff, fresh books, trailer, like anything I could need. It's all in

there and I just leave them all open and they're not always cluttering up my tab bar. I have one for recording, which I'm in right now, which just has show documents and the CMS in there. I have one for recording, which I'm in right now, which just has show documents and the CMS in there. I have one for Cortex brand, which is similar like all of the various projects we have there. And like I have the various websites I'm working on in there. I have one for keyboard stuff, like products that I'm interested in. I have one for we're going through the house buying process again. So I've got a new home tab group. I have one for my mentorship that I do for podcast mentorship.

And I have a tab group which currently has nothing in it, which is vacation. And anytime we're planning a vacation, all of the tabs for the vacation go in the vacation tab group. That's a good use. Excellent work. I look forward to making that tab group a shared tab group. That's a good use. Excellent work. I look forward to making that tab group a shared tab group. Yeah. With iOS and Mac OS 16.

For sure. So yeah, that's the tab groups. Oh, I had one last one for you. How many unread emails do you have? Somewhere between none and 2,477. I don't understand. That can be the answer to this question. Um, so I use SaneBox and my inbox is completely red, although there's lots of messages in it, but I've read them all.

I also have SaneLater and SaneNews. They're unread. There are lots of them in there. But I don't care. But my inbox itself, although not at zero, there's lots of things in the inbox, but it's not there's nothing unread

in there. Just in the other list, priority mailboxes. Yeah, exactly. I have eight unread emails in my email inbox right now. Get to exactly. I have eight unread emails in my email inbox right now. Get to that. I'll try. Okay.

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That's Z-O-C-D-O-C.com slash UpgradeFM. One last time, ZocDoc.com slash UpgradeFM. Our thanks to ZocDoc for their support of this show and all of RelayFM. Let's do some hashtag ask Upgrade questions to finish today's episode. First comes from John. Jason, what is the right pronunciation show and all of Relay FM. Let's do some hashtag ask upgrade questions to finish today's episode. First comes from John. Jason,

what is the right pronunciation of the new version of Mac OS? I've been hearing various levels throughout various podcasts and would like the definitive Californian take. Is it Ventura, Ventura, Ventura, or Ventura? Well, first off, I want to say there's no such thing as definitive pronunciations.

But you did this before with one of the Californian names. So you were saying as a Californian, it's this. I don't remember which one it was. Maybe it was Monterey or something. Maybe it was Monterey. So I would say that although i've been referring to ventura a lot if you asked me about you like that we're going to drive through ventura on the way to wherever i would i would do the ch sound i would do ventura almost like it's v-e-n-c-h-u-r-a

ventura a little bit, instead of Ventura. I think that's mostly laziness, and that's a lot of accents come from laziness, where it's like, eh, do I need to be that precise? Do I need to pop that T, Ventura? Ventura. Ventura. That's my radio voice of saying Ventura, when in fact, in real life, I would just say Ventura. Ventura. Like a churro. Oh, okay. But you can do whatever.

Ventura. I mean, I've already said, I like to say Ventura because it just sounds more fun. Like to just put a bit of like Zorro on it or something. Ventura. Ventura? Ventura. Ventura is not, no. Ventura, like bench. Ventura. Ventura is probably what I i would say and in radio voice it's been ventura ventura ventura the cadillac ventura what about ventura no is that good no ventura ventura ventura it's like between monterey and ventura ventalina that's the new you know it's between ventura and monterey confusingly big sir huh okay uh johan asks when do you think apple will stop supporting intel max

oh you know i mean where's the where's the line right now i i would say stop supporting it'll be a few years you know two or three years um getting fewer features every time having banner features not be there um that that'll start happening but um stop supporting them all together it'll be a while right i think apple's generally pretty good at that people are angry about stage manager but like i think in general apple's pretty good at keeping older hardware around and not completely dropping them out there's also some good security reasons for that right so like i would say bet on the longer side but expect that they're going to start omitting features and it'll be more like yeah you get the new update but you don't really get the new features you just sort of are on the base and have the security updates and then at some point

that'll go away so they could change i mean they, they're very changeable and this is a new thing, but I have to feel like there's two or three years left for sure. Ventura is on 2017, is as far back as it goes on some Macs. So I would say that would suggest that it might be four years before they drop it completely, which is, I think that that might be my guess. If I had to bet, it would be 25. 2025? The 25, WWDC 25, they would say, no more Intel. But understand that by that point, you will be able to upgrade, but you probably won't get many of the new features they're adding

right and you may not be happy with i mean are they going to optimize for for performance on intel systems no are they going to optimize for uh the machine learning like all the things that they can get on the on the apple silicon chips yes and so yeah it's going to be using an intel mac will become a less pleasant experience if you're trying to stay up to date with the latest and greatest over the course of the next few years but i think um 25 you know that might be the final like no this new mac os death valley and 25 the intel max are the ones that are in death valley at that point something like that eric writes i'm seeing calls for people who menstruate to delete their cycle tracking apps in light of the overturning of row as people fear that states may seek that data to prosecute those

who've had abortions isn't the apple cycle isn't the apple cycle tracker safe what about other apps so i have also been seeing a lot of this and it's quite complicated. I'm going to put a link in the show notes to an article that EFF wrote. Because it seems to be like, this is one of those things where there is a lot of fear

and also scaremongering. I think like, unfortunately, I see a lot of these tweets and I wonder, like, are people just trying to go viral on Twitter? Like, you can never really tell, and that kind of stuff can be a bit tricky. So the EFF kind of says, like, check the privacy policy of the apps that you're using.

They recommend one. I've seen a lot of people recommend an app called Clue as well. Apparently they have a pretty good privacy policy about data and stuff. You've put a link in the show notes. John Gruber did a Daring Fireball post today about this

and he mentions what the Apple health policy is. Basically if you're using iOS 12 or later and have two-factor on your health records are end-to-end encrypted. Yep. So they don't show up anywhere and Apple can't get to them. And then in addition, by default, you can turn off the iCloud syncing entirely, at which point it's just on device.

Mm-hmm. I think that Apple, this is one of those cases where Apple's privacy policies are probably really beneficial because even if there's a good app out there, you have to feel personally comfortable that the developer of that app has secure and privacy and storage and how everything is working. And I think that with Apple, you have a better idea that if they don't have it unencrypted in some form and they don't have the key, then it really is unreachable by Apple. And we've seen some cases of that in the San Bernardino case where Apple refused to decrypt. There's different acts depending on where... Messages can be... Messages are intended encrypted,

but the iMessage backup is not, right? There are places where this varies. Well, if you use messages in the cloud, you give up the end-to-end encryption. It's still there, but the archive is not, because they've got the key. Well, yeah, with the backup of the messages is also the key. Exactly. So if, what Apple do, because I did some research on this too today, what Apple do give up to law enforcement

is iCloud backup information. And that includes some stuff, like you can go and look on Apple's website and you can see the things that's included. Health data is not included in that because it is fully end-to-end encrypted. It's one of the things that's fully end-to-end encrypted. So the only way that law enforcement could get this information

is if they had actual physical access to a device of yours. So as long as your device is properly secured, that data can't be accessed. Now, of course, you then get into all of those situations of physical device security, right? And at that point, if you are that situations of like physical device security right and at that point if you are that concerned about your physical device security there is no app that you can be yeah you'd be better off not using electronic devices because um or doing it in a code or something because because yeah if if they if the police um demand you to unlock your device and if if they force it open um it doesn't matter that you've got it only on your device yeah because

your device is now open so this is a very uh like murky water situation like yes there are options but it all depends on what you are. But the other part is it also depends on what your comfort level is. But the answer of this question of like, is there a quote unquote safe option? Yes, it's Apple's health app. That's the one that you can feel confident about, that they're not going to, as confident as you can in a technology company, that they're not going to do something like this, right? I still want Apple to do full end-to-end encryption of everything, including messages, right?

Like I want full end-to-end encryption of iCloud backups. I know why they don't do it, but I think I should be able to check 100 boxes and get it. Because the reason they don't do it is because if I lost all my devices or whatever, then I've lost all of the data. It's gone. I still want to take that into my own hands, right?

Because the idea is like, if you've lost all your devices and all your passwords, right? Just so many things have to get lost, where I'm confident I would never get myself into that situation, but I know why they do it, because Apple have so many millions and millions and millions of users. There will be a non-sizeable portion of those people that will lose that password,

and then they've lost their photos. I'm confident that's not going to happen to me. So I wish that they would let people do it. With 100 keys, you have to turn or whatever, right? But they don't offer it. So some stuff is in that backup. Health data is not one of those things, thankfully. Brando asks, I was wondering if all apps work in Stage Manager on iPad

or if apps have to be compiled to work with it, like was the case with split screen. One of the great things about Stage Manager on iPad, or if apps have to be compiled to work with it, like was the case with split screen. One of the great things about Stage Manager as compared to split screen is because it wasn't like, you had to do a lot of work to get split screen to work. But with Stage Manager, every iPad app works, some better than others. But basically, if an app was already supporting split screen, it's going to work. it works even better if there's an app that supports multiple windows uh but yeah every app can work some of them will just be full screen and you can't do anything with it including some of the stuff that apple makes including settings

yeah you know i i there have been a lot of conversation about settings especially on the mac with the new settings app um my the settings app is is yeah full screen uh tall on ipad and not resizable on the mac and i don't understand i just don't understand why this is on both fronts it's like it doesn't it's just a window let me move the window i had a thing today which was funny where I had the settings app open and I wanted to open one password because I was adding a card to Apple Pay. So I needed the verification code of the card like this on the back. I didn't remember it. So I went to bring up one password in stage manager.

There's no slide over anymore, right? So it wouldn't let me bring in a second window because settings is full screen it's full screen wow yeah it is that's probably going to get fixed during the beta cycle but but most apps to answer brando's point here most apps um work fine i would say the bigger issue is they're using the apps resizability based on um not multitasking, but all the different screens, right? So that they're able to, apps are able to provide different behaviors and present different interfaces based on whether they're on an iPhone or an iPad, or whether they're on a big iPad or a small iPad, or they're in split view, right? They have different appearances. And what stage manager

is doing is taking advantage of all of those different appearances to let you resize the window. And basically what you're doing is you're telling that app, my device is this size now, my device is this size now, and the app relays out. What I would say app developers are going to need to do this summer is look at their apps in the context of stage manager and realize when the behaviors that they assumed based on you being on a device are not the same based on being in stage manager. And I'll give you an example, which is Slack. On the Mac, you can have an app window that has the channels on the left and the content on the right. In Stage Manager, if you are in anything but full screen, Slack is basically saying, oh, you're in a compact view. I'm not going to show you that thing on the left.

And it's infuriating. It's not their fault. They didn't know that this beta was happening. But it's an example where they're making an assumption that this is a fairly compact view. I'm going to hide that sidebar on the left side, give the content as much room. It's like, I don't want that sidebar hidden. I want it to stay open all the time. And because when you slide it over, it goes over the content. You can't leave it open. You can't choose. And that's going to be one of those things that all app developers are going to have to think is like, oh, I should make it so that people can choose to show or hide this. Because in some contexts, you might want to do that. This is, again, like why developers should have adopted Apple's sidebar for iPad stuff for these reasons. I will say if you, like I'm not saying you should do this or people should do this, but I did do it. If you do the display zooming, like the more space on iPad, that doesn't happen with Slack.

Interesting. Well, I've been using Slack on an external display and it still happens. Oh, that's funny. Even if I make it really large. That's funny. So it is not great. But again, it's beta for everything. And the developers who didn't even know this feature existed are not to blame for it,

but it is since Brando's question is, are you going to have to do things like recompiling? No, because they're using standard features of the OS. It should be usable, but I think there's going to be a lot of fine tuning this summer. Um, when these developers are going to get their apps in,

in stage manager and go, Oh no. Right. And like, this is better. It's Slack's fault. Well, right? And like, this needs to be better. It's Slack's fault. Well, if you think about, yeah, I agree. And if you think about like desktop class apps

as a concept on the iPad, which Apple wants us to think about, think about something like a Mac app that wouldn't let you turn a sidebar on and off or a toolbar on and off or something like that. There are some apps that do that, like Slack is actually like that. But in general, on a Mac,

there's an expectation that the user has some level of control over the interface. And that's less true on an iPad. It's still true, but I think that because the size classes thing was such a big deal in the early days of the iPhone with like, they're gonna be bigger iPhones and there's the iPad

and we gotta get away from pixel perfect designs and do, you know, these different size classes and everything is responsive to different sizes. I think what got lost in that is the idea that the size of the window isn't the only way that your user experience should be defined. It should also be defined by user intent. And that's a thing that developers, especially of iPad apps, need to get over. They need to get over the idea that the size is all that matters in terms of the user experience. Because let me tell you, using Stage Manager, it really sucks if you're working on a window and you want to make it a little smaller and the entire experience of what's on screen changes because they think you're on a different device or something like that it's like i'm not i just made it a little bit smaller so you need to they're going to need to put at least in some circumstances more control in the user's hands for that but that's what the summer is for it's also for fun it is also for fun if you would like to send in a

question to for us to answer on the, just send out a tweet with the hashtag AskUpgrade or use the question mark AskUpgrade in the RelayFM members Discord. Don't forget to go to UpgradeYourWardrobe.com if you want to pick up an upgrade t-shirt. Just got a couple of weeks left on that. If you want to find Jason online, you can go to SixColors.com

You can find him, he's at Jason now, J-S-N-E-L-L on Twitter. I am at iMike, I-M-Y-K-E. Thank you so much to ZocDoc, FitBod, TextExpander, and our Upgrade Plus members who help us support the show. We'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snell. Feel better, Mike Hurley.

Thank you.