Upgrade - 437: Luxury Car for Nerds

Episode Date: December 12, 2022

Myke has returned, and so have the Apple Car rumors. But before we try to figure those out, we've got to consider Apple's encryption announcements, Tim Cook's appearance at a chip factory in Arizona, and John Siracusa's appearance in our shared show document.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 437 today's show is brought to you by squarespace clean my mac x and trade my name is mike hurley and i'm joined by jason snell hi jason snell hi john hurley are all my co-hosts named John now? If that's what you're looking for, if you need that, you can do that. No, I think we need to revert to normalcy now. It's good to have you back. Good to be back. Can I have a hashtag Snell talk question? It comes from

Brantz. This was such a specific question that I wanted to ask it in case there was some kind of reason that Brantz asked this that maybe I'm not aware of. Brant's wants to know, Jason, do you have a second refrigerator in your garage? It is a strange question.

You know, Mike, you know more than anyone. We talk on podcasts a lot. And you don't always remember what stories you've told, what things you've disclosed. So I'm gonna just... I don't know why brant's is asking this um the answer is no i i did so um so jamie took a friend's refrigerator, a little tiny mini refrigerator, to college her freshman year. And then her sophomore year, she was in an apartment, didn't need it.

So she brought it back and it sat in our garage. And at some point I plugged it in. I tried to use it as like an auxiliary, like soda and beer storage thing because our, you know, to fit more stuff in the fridge. So you're like, oh, no, we're out of beer in the fridge. It's like, aha, there's backup beer, right? Or there's backup soda. Great. I did that for a little while, but it turns out that I didn't use it consistently and it was just sitting there, you know, wasting power. So eventually I decommissioned it.

And then now Julian is in the dorm and he has that refrigerator. just sitting there you know wasting power so eventually i decommissioned it and then um now julian is in the dorm and he has that refrigerator so it is it has moved on to the next child um and so there's probably who knows what dorm stuff is in there now uh but that means it's not here and when he stops using it i suspect we will give it away and not bring it back yeah fill up my already very crowded garage full of garbage i feel like at that point you would just get a new small fridge right then like keep moving this fridge hundreds of miles probably and it seems and it's just unnecessary because i can walk out my door to the refrigerator. I can literally see the refrigerator

from here because I'm podcasting with the door open today. I know. It's a risky move. And that refrigerator is great. And why would I not use it? And I can just get up and go there. It might have been different if it was far away.

I have some friends who work in a detached space. And they have to go inside. And it's like, well, okay, maybe I could see having a little refrigerator. Like back when I didn't have a door into my house. So I would have to go outside and unlock my front door and go into my house in order to get anything. But that's just not the case now. So it just seems like a waste of space and energy. So we don't.

If you would like to send in a question of your own, just send out a tweet with the hashtag SnellTalk. Use question mark SnellTalk in the RelayFM members Discord. And maybe you can get a very specific answer of the layout. Do you think Bronson is planning a heist? I worry that Brantz, like the call is coming from inside the house a little bit. I'm also concerned that Brantz might need a refrigerator. Maybe Brantz is a refrigerator. Or a refrigerator salesman.

Have you heard the good news about refrigerators in your garage? don't know what prance is up to here but uh that's the answer is that there there was a uh it was uh it was it was jamie's friend bastion hi bastion he doesn't listen um although i think he has uh and he let he let jamie have it and uh then it sat here for a couple years and now julian's got it and i don't think it's ever coming back because i don't want to haul it back here quite frankly so yep that's where we are with uh the mystery of the the legend of the second refrigerator so i'm back now yes i very much enjoyed the last couple of episodes with the johns do you have an out-of-body experience when you're listening to Upgrade and you're not?

Well, I mean, you also were on it. You introduced it and read some ads. That was weird to me when I was listening back. I will say that. But I did like the idea. That was your idea that I would just do a little intro. Introduce the show. Which I was thinking two things.

Maybe it's fun for you because it's like, you know, it makes you feel like a Letterman type, right? Someone's introducing. But then also i thought weird for the guests because i guess you started the recording of each episode thank you mike and they're like well he's not yeah yeah yeah i think they got they they ruled with it i think they know showbiz like the it's a post-production we're gonna fix that in But yeah, it was a fun thing. I feel like it's maybe a little less jarring to have it be like you with the From Relay FM and all of that. I also got some feedback about people were disconcerted that it wasn't my weird, messed up version of the theme song fade outs and all of that. And I pointed out that now that our friend Jim Metzendorf edits the podcast, he just does it the mic way every time.

Jim does it the correct way. Jim uses the right music. You know, I was thinking. I was like, is Jason us, Jim? I could have gone behind the scenes and like your connected host, I could have betrayed you and demanded that Jim do a different intro, but I didn't even think of it quite honestly. I was just more concerned in recording the episodes

and getting them out. And we did those live at our usual recording time and streamed them live on Relay, which was also not a thing. Back when John Syracuse had a job, I had to record those episodes on Sunday afternoon, so it was kind of nice to do it at the usual time. And I think I had to get John Gruber up early,

because he had to make it by noon eastern but yeah I really loved the episodes thank you to the Johns for filling in yeah on my behalf yeah that was fun

it was really good always nice to have a change of pace yeah get those guys talking about stuff they don't necessarily talk about on their

other podcasts yeah it was good how was your trip? oh my trip was wonderful I had a great time very relaxing very fun it was good how was your trip oh my trip was wonderful i had a great time very relaxing uh very fun um it was it ended up being exactly the trip that i was hoping for really um so i've come back feeling refreshed i've drawn a line uh in the sand for all of the horrors of buying the home which is what i was right so it's like okay all of that happened that's all in the past

now vacation was the barrier to now coming back and continuing forward that's good you know i had that moment i was um loading um a couple of dishes in the dishwasher yesterday and i i thought to myself you know at some point i finally did let go the fact that that i got extremely upset by the act of purchasing this dishwasher and i'm over it now and it feels good to put it in the past and just be done with it i believe that the dishwasher story was an upgrade plus story i think so i got very angry they tried to deliver it five times anyway now it's just a dishwasher i don't think about it if sometimes you want to hear jason get mad about dishwashers you should sign up for Upgrade Plus.

Go to getupgradeplus.com. Oh, boy. It's just $5 a month or $50 a year. But until December 17th, this is the last time we're going to be able to tell you this, you can get 20% off a plan if you sign up for a year. So an annual plan, you'll get 20% off the first year. So you go to giverelay.com where you can learn more.

But if you just use the code 2023HOLIDAYS at checkout, you will get 20% off that first year. So you go to giverelay.com where you can learn more but if you just use the code 2023holidays at checkout you will get 20% off that first year and that's, so you can go to getupgradeplus.com to sign up for this show, I'm going to appreciate it. We're working on some things for next year, some content stuff that we're both pretty excited about

we enjoy Upgrade Plus and we think that you will too So talking about content, just as a reminder to people the voting for the Upgrade Plus and we think that you will too. So talking about content, just as a reminder to people, the voting for the Upgradeys, the 9th Annual Upgradeys, has now closed. And I tabulated the whole thing today, Jason. I got on a tear and it's ready.

And I will say that there is some interesting results from the Upgradeys from their nominations and it helped me kind of finalize some of mine. results from the Upgradians from their nominations and help me kind of finalize some of mine. The 9th annual Upgraders will be released on December 26th.

There's going to be a little Boxing Day present for all of you from us. That's right. And we're pre-recording that, so send that over. Send over that information. I've got to spend some time this week thinking about oh i'll have it i'll have it in our document tomorrow i didn't want to put in a document today because

it's not today's episode you know also and and i know this is a little behind the scenes but i think we need to tell people um we are moving house in terms of making a new google doc for the show okay because we broke google broke Google Docs. Yes. On the iPad, at least. No, it's on the iPhone, too. Oh, on the iPhone. We've been using the same Google Doc for many, many, many, many years. We just remove what's in the document each week and just redo it.

And the Google Docs app now on my phone will crash every single time I open the document. So I don't know if you've tried this, Jason. Do you even have the Google Docs app on your phone? No. It's not a surprise to me, I think. No, not interested. But it is an instant crash for me. Yeah, so we're going to move and that'll be like

I guess the well, maybe the Upgradies will be in its own document too. Who knows? But we're going to, it's a good time. We're refreshing here for 2023, getting it ready. But all my little shortcuts where I have to like press buttons or launch things or use a launch bar shortcut or all that to get to the upgrade document, I'm going to have to change all of those. All going to have to change. I have some of those too. It's all going to get to the upgrade document you're gonna have to change all we're gonna have to change i have some of those too it's all gonna change just noticed friend of the show zach

nox appeared in the document real quick i don't know if you saw that i saw you zach i didn't well the most disturbing thing is that uh john syracusa is apparently still in the document having left guess what everybody he left a tab open. This is freaking me out. John Syracuse has been in our document all day. And also, so typically, if you have the document open, but you're not looking at it, it grays you out, right? But if you're active in the document, you see a little color around the icon. And John, it looks like John has been active in the document all day,

which has been very disconcerting. His cursor is resting right next to the red circle that says start recording when we start streaming. His cursor rests there. Character number one, the beginning of the document. But he could flip in there and just start typing or delete our files or whatever every time if he wanted to. So people may not know this or people may have forgotten this,

but I used to edit Reconcilable Differences. Way back in the beginning, I was the official editor of the show. I don't remember how many I did, but it was a lot before it moved to Jim Metzendorf, who is now the editor of the show. I don't remember how many I did, but it was a lot before it moved to Jim Metzendorf, who is now the editor of this show too. And so I had access to, and I think still have access to, the Reconcilable Differences document.

And in that document, at the very top, they spoke about this on the show before, they have the official cursor resting space, right? Yes. Where John wants people to put their cursors. Now, I used to purposely put mine lower. wants people to put their cursors. Now, I used to purposely put mine lower. I used to just put it below.

It just felt like fun for me. I never mentioned it. He never mentioned it to me, but I used to put it there. Oh, by the way, John Syracuse has now left the document, everyone. John Syracuse has now left. I don't know if somebody has alerted him. Did we scare him out? I think finally we've gotten rid of him

uh there's an important update john has left the document well i just removed access to john he's that'll teach him that'll teach him close your tab john see now he's gonna get a tab one day and it's gonna be like you're not allowed to be here and he's not gonna know what it was i've removed steven hackett from the document too get out get that guy out this is a great it's a great moment when we're gonna about to leave the document so it doesn't matter and it's like get out everybody get out we're tearing this building down it's unsafe get out now you gotta leave zach in here though because he might need things to know yeah i know so let's actually get into some real news and conversation. We were talking about a bunch before my break,

and also I think you were talking to John Gruber about this. Apple's manufacturing diversification. Looking at like, you know, we've spoken about this before. There's millions of iPhones that have been wanted to be made, but can't be made, and it's going to impact Apple. And the question is, what it's going to impact Apple. And the question is, what are they going to do going forward about this? Is this going to change Apple's commitment to China?

Is this a good excuse for Apple to change its commitment to China? Well, a few things have happened. happened one tim cook appeared at the tooling in ceremony for the new tsmc plant in arizona and spoke along with president joe biden about how apple silicon chips will be made in the tsmc chip in arizona in the coming years what chips that will be we don't know when they will actually be used in products we don't know but you know what this reminded me of? It reminded me a little bit of when he stood side by side with Donald Trump and let Donald Trump say that he made the Mac Pro happen. Uh-huh. Well, it's exactly the same, right? It's like, well, the president is here and there are government somethings involved. And isn't it great that we're here in the USA? And this is all part

of the politics of being the CEO of Apple, right? Of like, you're trying to deal with a lot of different powerful governments and government agencies and, you know, and trying to navigate all of that. And so this is an example of that, that Apple is... Because Apple definitely gets that pressure from a lot of people in the US about like, oh, but they make everything in China and it's an American company and how can they abandon manufacturing? We know the history there and it's a lot more complicated than that. And then you throw in the whole issue of diversification away from not just China, but also feeling like all the high-end chips made in the world are made in

Taiwan. And that's potentially dangerous too. It's another all your eggs in one basket kind of situation. But yeah, it sounds like Apple's only going to get a third of the output from this factory and it's unclear what process. It sounds like they're going to, they originally said five nanometer, but then it's going to be four nanometer. But like by the time this, this factory comes online, it's probably not going to be making anything remotely like the cutting edge designs that Apple uses for its most important products. So it's probably going to be making uh you know legacy nodes it's going to be that kind of stuff right it's going to be older the se phone and and uh older designs that are still around and apple tv chips and stuff like that yeah but that's still something

and it's the start of something right potentially uh moving on from that so to kind of talk about something a little more the wall street journal is reporting that apple is accelerating more plans to move manufacturing out of china and they're targeting india and vietnam and the way that i read in this article and you you quoted it i it was a little complicated to to tease out what they were trying to say but it seems like they're also looking to move to companies manufacturing companies that are not foxconn as well even if they're even if foxconn has a presence in other places but uh what was that your reading of this too uh i don't know i mean they mentioned foxconn one of the interesting

things about foxconn is it's a taiwanese company Taiwanese company, but it does a lot of work in China and has close ties to China as well. Foxconn is the vehicle for diversification, right? Like can we, Foxconn, you know, has this factory that we use in China. Let's get Foxconn to be the ones to push into Vietnam and India. Yeah, it's interesting and complicated. Because this is the line I struggled with. It said like,

and looking to reduce dependence on Taiwanese assemblers led by foxconn technology group yeah well there you go so like i read that as less reliance on foxconn which i also think is smart right i think we spoke about it before like i don't i know i remember seeing like oh foxconn are going to open a factory in another country and apple's going to use that it's like that's great but it's still not fully diversified, right? Like you're making them somewhere else, but you're not protecting

against government interventions over certain companies and stuff like that. So full diversification is going to mean way more. Like an Apple's very diversified in its, I think we spoke about this in the past, right? About where it's getting the parts from. Like the parts for their devices come from all over the place.

The issue that they seem to be having is where they're assembled. The assembly is the problem because this stuff is so difficult to do and seems to need so much human intervention. Way more, it seems, than I would expect before I started learning more about this. Like how much is needed

for there to actually be humans in the process, that they need to be able to have these large facilities that are assembling the products or overseeing the assembly of the product. And it seems like at the moment, they're really just using Foxconn for that. And that's not, it's just not smart on paper. And it's kind of strange to me that like,

how long they have let it go this way because this is obviously a problem like right well they're using they're also using pegatron right which is uh another taiwanese company but they're using pegatron in the iphone 14 in india so there's that like this is all all, yeah, you know, this is a process. This is the thing is it's a very complicated, expensive, slow process that is now proceeding. So that's, you know, that's really what's going on here is they are very slowly trying to push. Cause I think, yeah, I think they've recognized that all of these, look, it's a, it's a part of Apple's philosophy that they ignored for a long time because it was so expedient for them, convenient to do so, Apple ended up in one company with sometimes in one region and sometimes with one company that was managing the factories for them. And that is counter to Apple's whole ethos about it.

They were like, oh, production doesn't count. It's just components and software and design. And this feels like Apple saying, no, production too. We need to not if they don't own the whole widget they at least need to not have one company that has or country that has complete control over their business because that like apple doesn't and shouldn't like that so speaking of foxconn uh foxconn have reported that they are expecting that they will have their main iphone factory back to full production by the end of december or the start of january Foxconn have reported that they are expecting that they will have their main iPhone factory back to full production by the end of December

or the start of January. This is following the COVID shutdowns that they've had and then there were riots among the workers due to the restrictions placed on them for lockdowns and that there were frustrations over working conditions and bonus issues, which Foxconn have said was an administrative error and everyone's gotten their bonuses now.

I'm sure they have after they started rioting. So yeah, it's a mess for them right now. And I am really wondering at this point, when actually will Apple be able to start satisfying demand for the iPhone 14 and how big of an impact is this going to be for them? This is going to be a story that's going to go on for a while, I think. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, certainly when you start talking about, oh, we're going to be able to get up to speed by the end of December, start in January, that is exiting the holiday quarter, right? Which means that what they're sort of saying there is, you know, they're priming the pump for Apple's statements in late January when they do their financial results for their holiday quarter and the iPhone sales are way down from what anybody expected, that they're going to say, well, this is because of the factory and we couldn't fulfill demand. And then the next question is, is Tim Cook going to be able to say, but we are back up to speed now,

or we got back up to speed a couple of weeks ago, or we expect to be back up to speed and have fulfilled all orders in the next few weeks. And that's the question. But it seems to me that it's going to be in the damage control of, you know, going to be in the damage control of uh you know after they pick through the wreckage of the holiday quarter to say but it's you know but we fixed it um that that's how that's where this is now right because they can't like this is happening now uh the holly quarter is almost over this is going to be an issue and you know we don't know how much, but, you know, six billion. I mean, like, it's going to be a big issue. And then the question is, will they get this in balance for next quarter or not? You know, I'm always looking forward to earnings.

You know, I look forward to it. I'm really looking forward to this next one. I know. Like, I'm just imagine those charts. It's like a month and a half away. But just imagine those charts now. They're going to be so interesting. I'm excited about them

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like that apple music sing like the karaoke mode so yeah this is the first time we've heard of it why is all this stuff happening but it is and 16.2 is bringing with it a selection of features one of them we'd heard about before, but there was like three or four new things around security, data protection, that kind of thing of you as an individual. But the big thing that everyone's talking about is a new feature called advanced data protection, which is essentially end-to-end encryption for your iCloud account and all of the stuff that would be stored

within an iCloud backup, pretty much, right? So in the past, we've spoken about this on this show before. It's something that's been frustrating for me for a while, which is that you can... Apple end-to-end encrypts a ton of stuff, right? Just by default. So it's on your phone and the keys are stored on your device.

They can never access it. That includes messages, unless you use iCloud backup, which you should and everybody does. And if you also use iCloud, what is it called? Messages in iCloud or something like that? Messages in the cloud? Yeah. cloud um what's it called messages in iCloud or something like that messages in the cloud yeah then the information is available to law enforcement that kind of thing or if people were to get access to your iCloud account they could see it that kind of stuff right

have I done a decent job of explaining that I don't think I feel like I have uh it is I mean I don't think it's literally everything they do, like mail calendars and something else is not in there. It's more, it's like nine more buckets that are encrypted now, including messages, right? That iMessage is just completely that way. iCloud Drive, notes, photos, reminders, Safari, bookmarks, shortcuts, voice memo items, and wallet passes, as well as messages will be included in advanced data protection. The important one here, I think, really is messages, right? Like that your messages are yours.

They are kept secure. Of course, for a message conversation to actually truly be end-to-end encrypted both people have to have turned on advanced data protection right so like if me and you both have it on no one could ever get to our message but if i didn't and you did and you know someone wanted to to subpoena jason snell and they could get that information potentially so i just wanted you mentioned messages in the cloud i wanted to subpoena Jason Snell, and they could get that information potentially. So I just want to, you mentioned messages in the cloud. I wanted to mention messages in the cloud is end-to-end encrypted. But if you turn on iCloud backup, not only are your messages backed up,

but the decryption key for messages in the cloud is backed up, which gives you access. So you are already able to make messages completely unencrypted, but it was that same thing. You have to turn off iCloud backups in order to do it. That's like the special incantation.

Right, because the key to unlock them is in the backup. And so it's not like, it's a little complicated, but that's what it is. And if you turn on this new advanced data protection thing, then it is just,

because the backup is also encrypted, it means that everything that could have the key is encrypted and therefore uh it's end-to-end encrypted completely so if you have advanced data protection turned on it means that apple cannot look at your data or provide your data to any outside entities so this is like one of the big things right so like the subpoena thing where it's like well you get a law enforcement agency gets a court order to go to apple and say we need the records of this person um and apple has to provide them with those records if they can uh and they have been able to do that with things like the unencrypted iCloud backup,

which gives access to all of that. If it's end-to-end encrypted and Apple does not hold the keys, Apple can't do that, right? That also means that Apple can't help you out when you call and say, oh, I lost my password and I can't get any of my photos.

And that leads to some other features that are in here. But yeah, that's the idea is if the FBI comes to Apple and says, I want this, Apple, if advanced data protection is turned on, Apple will say, we can't provide that to you because we actually don't hold the key to unlock that data. We can give you the encrypted data, I guess,

but that's it. We can't decrypt it for you i want to put a pin in that part and come back to it in a minute because i just want to go through she said like the other thing you mentioned so one of the reasons that apparently apple's been resistant to have end-to-end encryption is the customer support angle so say if somebody loses the access to their devices and forgets their iCloud password, in theory, then they have lost all of their data, all of their photos, their notes, right? They've lost their messages, they've lost everything. And that can be pretty

catastrophic to someone. So they're doing a couple of things. One, advanced data protection is opt-in and you have to read and agree to a bunch of scary warnings where they are. And Craig Federighi did a short video interview with joanna stern people should go watch that it was very interesting um and he referenced it as like the responsibility like it's added responsibility for you and potentially somebody else in your life as they've created like they want to basically force you into doing one of a couple of different things one is to print out or like take note of this very long code a recovery code you know i will get it put it in one password or something uh and or

create a recovery contact so for example i could set jason as my recovery contact and if i lost all of my access i can ask it to contact my recovery contact. It will send Jason a code and then give some instructions that he would then go through with me to help me get my account back. This is smart, right? Like this is the way to do it if you're going to do it. And also to make sure that

if you don't add this, we're not going to let you put it on, I think is probably the way to go. And I don't know exactly technically what's happening with that, but my guess is that apple has a portion of the decryption key but not either apple has or or the person you share it with has it but my guess is that apple has a portion of it and then a portion of it is placed in the in the the person well i just assumed that this was just like a code

that you needed to access the password reset field or something like that that's how i'd assumed it was yeah but you got to be able to you you got to be able to decrypt the data if the data is decrypted you can reset the password but how do you get to the how do you get to the uh the decryption key right yeah um and this is and this is actually one of the things that struck me about this that i think is worth diving into and i don't like i said maybe there's something written about this i haven't seen it but having that other person is a potential weakness in this, right? If you're afraid that a state actor is coming to get you, you probably, my guess is you would use that long decryption code that you have in a very, very safe place.

Or the physical key thing, right? You could also use that, which I added support for. Right, but this is the challenge there, is that you have a backup, and one of your backups is a person. If that person is not using the system, right? Like, okay, does Apple have access to the information in their backup that would give them access? And it sounds like, I don't know that there's a collaboration going on here. I'm sure that Apple has thought this through.

I don't know that there's a collaboration going on here. I'm sure that Apple has thought this through, but it is just, it's a little bit like saying, well, we're doing two-factor, but we're putting it in a text message, right? It's like, well, the text message could get intercepted, right? That is, your alternate method has to also be secure. So I think that that's a question that I don't know the answer to,

but it's a nice idea that is like for, especially for consumer type people or people who are want to do this but are are not at the level of being a dissident uh or journalist or something like that is uh is saying well i i want to turn this feature on anyway and i'm just gonna i'm gonna turn it on and give it to my pal and my pal is gonna turn it on and give it to me and then we're our backup contacts and that that's probably enough for anybody but at the highest levels of security so it's going to be available in the u.s by the end of 2022 and is going to be available outside the u.s later um in 2023 yeah and then at some point and it seems the rest of the world

will see what countries it is or isn't in and I'm going to be intrigued to see when pressed by Joanna Stern Craig was like about China was like they haven't told us it can't be or whatever as far as I'm aware it's okay and I'm intrigued

that was an interesting answer i will be really intrigued to see what happens because everybody well you may not know but we spoke about it a bunch i the iCloud servers for china are in china this is a this is they're operated there this is the thing that doesn't happen in other countries that where it's like mandated that it must be um so i'm i'm very intrigued to see about the way that that ends up going down right because all it really takes is for the for for china to pass a new law that says uh no encryption for stuff stored on cloud or something right like that's all they really need to do and then they're like apple you have to follow our laws you can't you can't have this

feature in china we've outlawed this feature in china and that's interesting right if that happens so let's imagine that the american government does this right as well we'll just we'll just purely hypotheticalize it uh what then happens to this feature like if you've turned it on and then in three years time it's now illegal enter and encryption is illegal is there anything that realistically can be done at that point like you've turned it on uh well yeah i mean apple could force a software update that turns it off because this is the thing right apple are now and i'm sure this is one of the other reasons that they've not done this before and i'm intrigued i'm really intrigued as to why now like about this but this is going to upset a lot of nations right yeah it shouldn't but it's going to uh i think it's it's going to upset i mean probably every government in the

world honestly like it's probably there is going to be some part of each government that's going to be annoyed about this in some way or Especially if you define the government there as you talk about the law enforcement entities in those organizations. Because the truth is every law enforcement organization will complain whenever there is any reduction in the number of techniques that they have to get what they want. And I always say this, but this goes back to the Miranda warning that we've seen in every detective and cop show ever on TV in our lifetimes. When that came in in 1971, 70, something like that, 50 or more years ago, everybody was like, oh, cops are never going to be able to interrogate anyone or arrest anyone. It wasn't true. It was, they just had to read them their rights. But they fought it because they're like, no, no, we don't want them to know their rights. And this is a little like

that. It's not the job of the police to say, no, no, we don't want this. It is the job of the lawmakers, essentially, to say what the rules are there. And I think that's the question worldwide, as you point out, which is, is end-to-end encryption, so there's no way to have it be retrieved under a court order or something, something that could be made illegal? And if it is, what does Apple do? And I think the answer is probably that in countries where it's illegal,

Apple turns this feature off. I think that's what it means. What else realistically can they do, I guess, in that situation, right? You have to, I guess, if they want to operate in a certain country, they have to abide by its laws, which is why there'll be USB-C on iPhones, right? Because what are they going to do? Are we going to do our real-time follow-up now so people don't uh email us i mean it's probably too late but zach has given us a a link in the discord to an apple support document it's what i said which is apple keeps part of it and part of

it is the recovery contact the recovery we're talking about yes it is yeah apple keeps part of it and part of it goes to the recovery contact. And so Apple could be subpoenaed, but the recovery contact also has it. Well, it's a different key. So I'm going to read. When a user sets up a recovery contact, the key to access the user's data, including entered and encrypted CloudKit data, is encrypted with a random key that is then split between the recovery contact and Apple. At recovery time, only when the two are recombined can the original key be recovered and their data accessed.

Right. So my only question is, where is that key stored and is that also encrypted? I assume it is. Let's assume yes. I think we could probably assume yes, right? Yeah, right. Because really, this whole advanced data protection thing,

it feels to me like, hey, we're going to do this seriously now, where in the past it's been a little bit like, yeah, but you kind of, like, you know, like as we said earlier, right? You are end-to-end encrypted in some instances and some stuff is unless you do this, but it doesn't feel like that now. This to me feels very much like,

for some reason, they have decided that now is the time that they're going to pull the trigger and just do this whole thing yeah but i am really intrigued about you know so you were saying about uh law enforcement agencies right and we remember the san bernardino case it was a you know there was a fbi needed Apple to unlock a phone because of a shooting and they had the phone of the people and they wanted to get it so they could find out what was going on. And Apple wouldn't do it. Couldn't do it, wouldn't do it and wouldn't do what the FBI wanted them to do, which was to create basically a backdoor into iOS to allow them to get that data.

Yeah. A special version of iOS that they could put on it that would, yeah, exactly. So the thing at the time was Apple were being roasted in the media, right, of supporting terrorism, basically. It is only a matter of time now until this happens again because they've set up this feature. What do you think about this uh i mean i i feel like they're going to be places where it is it is outlawed and they're going to be places where it's not because it's going to be debated um and not and and like in

the u.s it's possible that they might outlaw something like this but i think the truth is that you know when i talk about miranda as an example it's because like it all went okay like what happened in the san bernardino case is they they bought some off-the-shelf software that used a security hole to unlock the phone yeah and and and apple tries to close those security holes too and that's a whole other story where they're like, how dare they fix the security? And Apple's statement there is always very strong, which is if, if good guys can use the security hole, bad guys also can use the security hole and we protect our customers from bad guys. So we close all the security holes. That's our goal. But they're always going to be, you know, probably some that exist. That's just sort of the nature of the complex systems here. So there'll be lots of talk about it. And I think in certain places there will be action. need a lot of political will and there are you know things like right to privacy and the constitution right like it might be harder to make that sort of sweeping statement but in china it won't be and you know because as well they're also introducing the lockdown mode right and this is for i mean it's it's created we spoke about this before created for people that are potential

targets of state interference but anyone can turn it on. And it essentially limits how an iPhone talks to the web to thwart backdoor attempts to protect against these kinds of software, like the Pegasus software and stuff like that. So the combination of advanced data protection and lockdown mode, that phone is in a Faraday cage as much as Apple can make it. And so it's...

I would just say, I don't want anyone to misunderstand me. I am very happy that they have done this. I think they should do this. I have wanted this for myself and I'm going to turn it on as soon as I get access to it. I'm just intrigued about

apple having done this with all of the potential problems that they could get themselves into for it right it's all the reasons that we said that they probably that they probably wouldn't do this or they might not do this even though we wanted them to do it was that they were going to end up uh putting themselves up against a lot of people and a lot of governments all around the world and a lot of law enforcement who have come to rely on subpoena. Well, and let's just back up a point. What we're saying here is that technology changed the game in terms of law enforcement in a few ways.

Yes, it can be used by criminals to commit crimes. And you can have a burner phone or you can have encrypted messages that they can't get to. But like the big picture is also that we put all of our key information on a device and the device is something we carry around with us. And it used to be, and a lot of the laws are written, the Constitution and all sorts of things of things that in the u.s at least like uh there there is what's in your mind it's not subpoenable there's the stuff that's in your house which is subpoenable but you have to actually get it the things you carry on your phone out in public um do not have the same protection as the things that are in your house which do not have the same protection as the things that are in your brain right which do not have the same protection as the things that are in your brain, right? Like that there's a, there is a, a change there where the

phone is like a loophole where it's like, aha, you carry that out in the world and we can get it and we can look at it. And cloud services are like that too, right? We moved to the cloud and now your personal information is suddenly not on your person or in your brain, but it's in some company's data center, unencrypted or encrypted and they have the key. And it's a loophole for them. It is a tool they can use where they're like, oh, now all that stuff that would have been committed to memory or written down on a piece of paper, you know, somewhere locked up is now just in this place where we can just get a subpoena and take it. And so they've benefited greatly from that. But I would argue, and I think Apple would argue that that was a function of the early days of the

cloud and that the direction this is all going is back toward, if it's your personal data, back toward toward if it's your personal data you should hold the key to it yep and um that that is that is what apple's trying to do is say look it was a function of the development of this that for a while there was uh unencrypted stuff or or stuff that was encrypted in the and the cloud provider held the key but that's not, in the grand scheme of things, somebody's personal information should or has ever really worked. And we don't want to hold the key. And we don't believe, Apple would say, we don't believe that any big tech company should hold the key

to their customer's personal information. The customer should, right? And I think they're absolutely 100% right about that. That's not going to make people in law enforcement very happy, but I think that that's the fact. And the challenge is that I can say that, and I can say that I think that there's a lot of history and law in the United States that supports that. But, you know, it's one, you know, one, uh, act of Congress, like, uh, back after nine 11, where they, where they suddenly were like, Oh no, we need to make a whole bunch of stuff illegal. And, uh, one step like that, or we live in an era now where I have to say, or a Supreme Court ruling that goes against all sorts of established law because they've decided that they want it to be different.

And that's all it will take in the U.S. for something like that to happen. But I do think Apple is doing the right thing. And I think it's interesting because they have to know all of the crap that is going to come down on them. It's inevitable, right? In a place like China or other authoritarian countries, it may just be as simple as you can't do that here. And in a place like the U.S., it starts with a crime being committed and then somebody from the FBI walking out and saying, Apple is the reason that we can't investigate this

because they've chosen to harbor the secrets of criminals without any access for law enforcement. And we've been through that before. But I think it's still the right thing for them to do. And I think they will probably be forced in some markets to just turn this stuff off. But part of me thinks that the strategy here is Apple wants to be in the place where apple has done everything that it can to ensure the privacy of the data of its users and that if that privacy is taken away it's because it's been taken away by a government uh or you know basically by a government by a law by something and it allows apple to say it's not us. We're not conspiring to take

away your privacy. Your government has forced us to. And now people can roll their eyes at that and be like, oh, well, yeah, you're just complying. That always is what happens with Apple and China, right? Is that Apple complies with China's restrictive laws. And then everybody says, well, you should just leave China, which we know they can't do and apple's policy has always been like we comply with the laws so like when they were in russia they're like we're gonna suggest the apps that the russian government passed a law saying that we have to give to you or we're gonna change the emoji or whatever exactly right and that has been so that and you don't have to like it but i feel like that is Apple's base strategy is, let's come out and say, we have the capability to do the right thing. And if we aren't allowed to do the right thing, it's because

somebody forced us, right? That's the answer there. And then people will still complain and be like, well, you should just leave that country. Okay. But they're probably not going to do that. In most cases, they did in Russia. They're probably not going to do that in China. But it does put them on the side of like, well, you know we we tried to do the right thing and then the bad people made us not yeah you mentioned about like all it takes is one rule change all it takes is one supreme court ruling all it takes is one rule change in any country to get this stuff taken away. Isn't there a possibility that in doing this, Apple is more likely that this will happen in more countries? Just like the mere act of Apple creating this feature

accelerates the risk of end-to-end encryption being made illegal because now every iPhone in the world can have full end-to-end encryption being made illegal because now every iPhone in the world can have full end-to-end encryption. Yeah. Yes, but. I think, yes, but do you want to be, you know, do you want to go on having your people believe that things are secure? Many of which are not. This is the right thing to do. I just like to think through the possibilities.

Well, no, cause I get the big picture here, which might be like Apple does this. And the net result is that signal was outlawed, right? Like right now we live in, in talk,

you talk about your various kinds of weird things that are based on the progression of technology. And one of them is that are based on the progression of technology. And one of them is you put things on the cloud and they aren't encrypted on the cloud. And they should be, but they weren't. And now we're trying to get there and it's a controversy. Well, one of the places we've gotten to is a lot of these major platforms, like Apple's, don't have all the encryption everywhere. don't have all the encryption everywhere. And as a result,

there are a bunch of third-party services like Signal that have sprouted up that are able to do complete end-to-end encryption. That's their whole thing. And they're able to do that, and maybe the heat is not on them as much as it would be because they're the fallback and the eyes of the world are on the big companies and the defaults like

iMessage, right? And by doing this, if Apple prompts more anti-encryption policies, it could make it bad for everybody who is doing end-to-end encryption. That's absolutely the case. But if you're Apple, I think what you think is Apple has so many more customers than Signal does. And Apple feels like there's a fundamental benefit to, right? It's the idea of if you lock it all down and you don't even think about it, then everybody is protected and that there's value in that. However, I'll also point out this feature is off by default for lots of decent reasons. But I feel like that's Apple's like one hedge here is, well, it's a feature you can turn off and you have to turn it on.

You have to want to turn it on and most people won't turn it on. And I do kind of wonder if Apple's going to, when this comes out, Apple's going to say, well, you know, people have to choose to turn it on and most people won't turn it on and i do kind of wonder if apple's gonna when when this comes out apple's gonna say well you know people have to choose to turn it on um they could force it right they could do what they've done with two-factor which is make it extremely uncomfortable to not have two-factor authentication turned on on apple devices right they they made that choice they could do that with this but they haven't maybe they will one day who knows i mean it seems unlikely but maybe they will um maybe in part of talking about this craig federighi confirmed to joanna stern that they have abandoned their previous plans for undervice scanning of child sexual abuse material the c-sam Yeah. They didn't give any more details like what are they going to do then?

But that whole plan of the on-device scanning that we spent a bunch of time talking about, was that last year? Or was that this year? It wasn't this year, was it? I think it was last year.

Yeah, maybe so. I think it was 2021. That entire program is gone. It's just gone. Yeah, it was last year. I'm sure it was one of those upgrade-y bad story things. Which is the right thing for them to do, because that was a bad idea. Yeah, but this is another case where they're going to put themselves in...

They're making a target of themselves, because people are going to be able to say that Apple has now no facility to scan for those images, right? Like they're all the photos are encrypted on the server. And if they're all encrypted on the server, Apple can't scan them. And Apple's not intercepting them at upload because they're encrypted. And they're not doing the thing where they intercept them on your phone because everybody said, well, wait a second.

Now my phone is spying on me. And so it's going to hasten the spread of this material that that will be the argument see because then i would assume right that apple will have to do what other tech companies are doing if they're going to do something which they i think they have to which is to do uh scanning in the cloud but then they can't do that they can't with advanced data protections turned on right so this is right they've they have put themselves apple have put this put themselves into a very complicated corners with this and again i wonder if the strategy here is you're gonna have to make us do it it's it's a it's not quite don't throw me in the briar patch but it's

a little like that right it's this it's this oh no, I don't know if they want it, but I think that it's like, if you're going to do it, you're going to have to force me, right? Like, we're not going to choose to do this, but if you make us do it, we'll do it. Because then it's not us making the decision and our hands are tied. And that like, if our commitment to privacy of our users is paramount, let's just fully commit to it and they can force us to back off of it. But we're going to be, we're not going to back off of it by default. Right. And so this may be the strategy here is if you in the US, let's say, are so concerned about the CSAM stuff being on Apple devices, here's what you need to do. You need to make it a law that we have to scan for it. And then we'll scan for it on device and people will be angry and we'll say, sorry, it's the law. We have to abide by the law.

I do wonder if that is an aspect of this because they know they're going to get hit by all of this stuff. Either that, well, and the other part of it is maybe this is part of their strategy to say we want our customers to see that when when Apple is making waves in the news, it's because Apple is erring on the side of the of the privacy of the customers and not on the governments. And how does that play? I think that it plays differently with different people but like i think i think that they are trying to walk the walk here to a certain degree with their discussions of privacy commitments um knowing that it's going to blow back because what this does what advanced data protection does is does the actual thing that they promised for years which is what happens on your iphone stays on your iphone it's an ad campaign they never should have done because it's

one of those things it just comes around and bites them back every little while. Every time there's anything, yeah. Those pictures of the billboards at CES where they put that on these huge buildings is always used. But this is that.

This is what I have wanted. Advanced data protection is what I as a user have wanted for years. Like, I just want to know that my information is mine. And I don't worry necessarily, I mean, maybe one day I will, but I don't worry right now about a government getting in.

But I do worry about Apple getting hacked. That's this, of course, it's possible. Unlikely, but possible, right? That there's some kind of data breach at Apple. Like every other company can succumb to it. It's just lucky maybe that they haven't so far or like there's a lot of really great work going on but lots

of companies have this stuff going on, right? It's not happened at Apple. I don't ever want it to because that's so much of my stuff. So I have wanted encryption for a long time, like full encryption of everything including my messages which is maybe the most important thing, right? Because that's where i'm having private conversations with all of the people in my life

talking like and i want that stuff to i want to feel that i have the same sense of security over that as i do how many steps i've walked each day right which that has been end-to-end encrypted for a long time is all your health data like oh my flights are stair trends don't let anyone see those right but like my messages with my wife whatever man you know so i'm really happy that they've put this in because it's great but it is an absolute minefield that they're walking into and i am fascinated to see where it goes yeah and it's gonna go somewhere I don't think this is going to be a quiet thing. This is going to be... They are prompting response by doing this, right?

And maybe that's why this wasn't an iOS 16 thing, right? They didn't want the whole conversation of their new operating system to be focused around this in the mainstream media. So it's like, we'll leave this for a later point and then introduce it now or whenever it was ready also this is the time to introduce it where um you can introduce it and ship it fairly quickly right whereas if they introduce this in june and said it'll ship this fall sometime that get that would give it everybody including governments time to react to it here they they want to ship it and then again if my theory is right ship it and so then they can point to the governments and say that's why you don't get this feature it's time to react to it. Here, they want to ship it. And then again, if my theory is right, ship it. And so then they can point to the governments and say,

that's why you don't get this feature. It's not us. This episode is brought to you in part by CleanMyMac X. Make sure that you can trust your Mac. It is a crucial tool for work, education, life, just getting things done, hanging out, entertainment, whatever. Mac poor are on a mission to make sure that your machine helps you. That is why they developed CleanMyMac X, an ideal decluttering app for the Mac to keep yours in tip-top shape. CleanMyMac X includes 49 tools

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So go get CleanMyMac X today with 5% off at macpaw.apps-upgrade. This discount is only valid for two weeks. That is macpaw.appsapp slash upgrade for 5% off. A thanks to CleanMyMac X for the support of this show and all of RelayFM. So there's been some news from Mark Gurman around Apple's car project.

Hey, Mike, do you remember when I said that if Apple was committed to shipping a car without a steering wheel, that it would never ship? Yes. And it seems like that may, in fact, be the case. Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple is making significant changes to their ongoing car project. They are no longer planning to release a fully self-driving vehicle. So it will, in fact, have a steering wheel and pedals.

What? If you could imagine such a thing. It has been considered as not feasible at this time to continue with that idea. It will have some autopilot-like features for driving on highways and stuff. And the Bloomberg report says that Apple is intending that people could use the screens

in their cars for apps, multitasking, and entertainment while this is happening. I don't see that as a possibility. Again, the laws. The laws, everybody. And also, just like, I don't know, maybe it's, I don't know.

Apple will, of course. The Teslas that have screens in the back seat, they can use those screens to watch movies and stuff. But there are laws against the driver being able to see distracting stuff, at least in the US. It's not allowed when you're in drive to have videos playing on the screen. You're not allowed to do that. At least for a long time. We've got a long time before that should be a thing people're not allowed to do that at least for a long time we've got a long time before that should be a thing people will be able to do feels like that that is a yeah that is the well i think not to draw more tesla parallels but this this report sounds a

little bit like oh but we are going to be able to do full self-driving level five on highways uh and and and maybe that like i have one of my apple car theories really is that the reason apple is doing this is that apple is convinced or somebody at apple is convinced that they are going to be able to be the ones to crack the level five which is like completely autonomous driving algorithm and i'll just point out that like tesla has been trying to sell and has been selling this full self-driving thing for ages now that is not full self-driving, right? It's not. It's just not.

You have to pay attention all the time and it'll drive itself a little bit, but it is not a completely autonomous, you don't need to look kind of mode. And I feel like Apple somehow thinks that maybe they could do it where Tesla has not yet succeeded after trying for, you know, a decade. And leaving aside whether that's realistic or not, like it would at least make it understandable. Like if Apple thinks they could be first to market with a truly autonomous self-driving car, then that would be a reason to make a car, right? If you're Apple, if you think, oh, we've got it nailed, we've got it down. Nobody else does, but we do. And so when in this context of saying like letting people use apps while they're driving on the highway, that's sort of how I read it is them saying to themselves, well, we may be able not to do, this is like what John Syracuse

always talks about when he believes they'll never be self-driving cars, truly, is local roads that are terrible, right? Like local roads that are terrible. We were driving, Lauren and I were driving to Curling the other day, and it had rained, and the sun was coming up, and the sun was bouncing off the road, and they had done work on the road

where they had moved some of the roads, so there were lines, but there were also places where the lines had been that had been scraped off and seams in the concrete or seams in the pavement. You could not tell where the lanes were on that. And that was on a freeway.

Like, so roads are, right, like the human brain struggles with roads sometimes to get a system that's so perfect that all the little roads and everything are going to be covered. Exactly. It it seems unlikely but maybe apple's placing a bet here if they really do believe they've cracked level five autonomy or or that they're going to which i think is i would say look at the lesson of tesla which is tesla has thought that they were about

to be there for a while and they they're there. But if they do think that, they would say something like this, right? Which is like, okay, maybe you're going to need a steering wheel for like the streets. But once you get on the highway, boom, you just lean back, watch some TV. I just, I don't think it's realistic. Apple will, of course, be designing its own chips for their car project to run on. Apparently, their chips are nearly production ready and are four times more powerful than anything they currently make. I'm not really sure why that means anything, but that's the thing. Like, what about 40 times more powerful?

Like, how much more powerful does a car need? I don't know, because it's not even about power, right? It's more about the ability to do things in real time which is right because that's the whole thing about cars is it's a different type of operating system right it's a real-time operating system yeah i guess it's i guess the idea there is that if you're if you're processing input from all sorts of different places that's a huge amount of data and you need the speed to process all the input and do whatever kind of like neural processing you need to do in order to because that's what you're trying to do is you've got a bunch of sensors.

I don't know what Apple's car sensor plan is, but you've got a bunch of sensors and you've got some sort of neural net processing as well. There's a huge amount of data feeding in there so that it can see essentially, right? And it can make, and then make driving decisions based on what it can see. And they're going to be doing that. LiDAR, radar, and cameras. Apple are going to be making all their own custom sensors and using their

own components for this. A quote from the article, Apple will use the cloud for some AI processing, and the company is considering a remote command center that could assist drivers and control cars from afar during emergencies. That also seems to tie somewhat into the satellite thing as well,

which I found interesting. Kind of wild. And they are targeting a sub $100,000 price for the car. So it would basically be in the Tesla Model S. Luxury sedan. I mean, I've kind of assumed all along that if Apple ever made a car, it would start with the luxury sedan i mean i've i've kind of assumed all along that if apple ever made a car it would it would start with the luxury sedan and then follow with the luxury crossover suv thing and then they'd go from there apple car mini that that sounds about right yeah sure so here's my question

for you right i so reading all of this like I think it'll be interesting to see what exactly could an Apple car, like the hardware of the car, do to make it stand out and also to make it be trusted. Because we saw the CarPlay preview, right? If they continue to make CarPlay better and CarPlay can be more integrated

and more awesome, then an Apple car may not have that much of a software advantage because you can get like the Apple experience in another car. So how would an Apple car set itself apart from any other car? Well, my guess, and also I think Mark Herman's report says that they're still talking to car companies about using their platform. So, they're not going to build their own electric

car platform. They're going to use somebody's electric car platform. The wheels and the engine and all of that. So, what's left is the shape of the car, the details on the interior and the exterior, the fact that they will own the entire interface wall-to-wall, although, again, that CarPlay announcement seemed to suggest that they wanted to be able to do that in everybody's car, who would choose to be a partner for that new version of CarPlay, and that they would have all the amazing integrated intelligence that is suggested in Mark Gurman's report, right?

Like the stuff that takes it to another level because it's the complete Apple experience. So it's high quality materials and it's the complete Apple experience through and through. And I think that the truth is that this felt like more five years ago, this felt more like an opportunity than it does now because so many other electric cars are in the market now. When, back when it was sort of like Tesla and nobody else or Tesla and like little tiny roller skate cars, like, like my Nissan Leaf, right. That, that it was like, well, there's a real opportunity for Apple to get in there and, and sort of out Tesla, Tesla, but now it's like, well, there's a real opportunity for Apple to get in there and sort of out-Tesla Tesla. But now it's like, okay, yeah, but also every other car manufacturer.

And you're doing this CarPlay thing that maybe allows them to bring Apple's interface into their whole design on the inside of the screens. So what is left to really differentiate you? And I'm sure, like, we can imagine it, right? Like, I'm sure Apple could make something that would be a, you know, truly a luxury car for nerds that has great materials and interesting look and has Apple's touch of design everywhere like i can

i can see that but it feels less essential than it did five years ago right like when they started this project it seemed like there was more of a moment for them to come in, and now it feels like there's less of that. Yeah, because there's so much trust, right? Like, that maybe people don't think about, but there is a trust that you've got to have that the car's going to protect you and is going to be good, right? And Tesla was able to skirt some of that trust by being, like, this, quote-unquote like first really

good electric car right first luxury electric car so that excitement drew people to them and then people bought the cars but now everyone's making luxury electric cars yeah so there is like I don't know what Apple's thing is gonna be that makes people jump over that hurdle and this has been the thing that i think looking back and reading mark's reports on this over time and looking back over the whole history of this project titan thing i'm really coming around to the idea that the thing is that apple believes they can make a self-driving car that actually works yeah i think that's the thing. I think that what's motivated them all along is Apple's belief that Apple is so brilliant.

And they have, you know, again, they do have brilliance, but the question is, can they apply it in this category? And we've seen other companies try to apply it and have not succeeded. But Apple believing, like, we're Apple, we can do this. We are going to be able to roll in here like we did with the iPhone, right? We're going to roll in and say, yeah, you've been doing all of these sort of like mildly autonomous cars that you have to really kind of only on certain roads. And you've got to pay attention all the time. And we're blowing it away.

Like we're making a completely self-driving car. You wouldn't even need to be inside. You could just say, go pick up my kid and it would go over there. Right? Like, I think that was the initial conception. And, and now where we are is sort of like the bargaining stage where if I read Mark's report correctly, maybe they say, well, it's kind of like a Tesla, but we have better software so that when you're on a highway, it will be self-driving. But the other times, you have to have a steering wheel because the other times it won't be,

at least not yet. But eventually, and they're bargaining, and the bargaining is about the level of differentiation they can do. And it seems like they're scaling it down and they're scaling it down and they're scaling it down. But I think at least what they want to answer your question to set it apart is that feature is the autonomy and, and some level of it somewhere where they feel like this is going to be that they've cracked it and that no one else

is going to be able to provide that level of intelligent safety and self-driving and auto correction and whatever else. And then what Apple does, I, I am really skeptical that they are going to be able to roll in and do that because the whole industry has been trying to do that for a long time and has not succeeded. And it's turned out to be much harder. I mean, again, there's a lot of baggage here, but following Elon Musk on the space side for liftoff, Stephen and I learned he makes lots of bold pronouncements that don't end up happening, which is not to say that SpaceX hasn't done amazing things, but they make a lot and he makes a lot of things that are, you know, announcements of things that just are never going to happen on

the timeline that he specifies. And Tesla, you know, I think that's one of the issues with Tesla. And it comes down to Musk, but it's also this belief that like, oh yeah, it's just around the corner, full self-driving, we're going to call it that. And it's not just around the corner. There's always another beta. There's always another YouTube video that shows that it still can't make unprotected left turns. You know, it gets better and better. And that's a company that has been out there testing this in the field, having real people use it for years now. And it's still like, it keeps getting incrementally better. So the idea that Apple is going to be like, yes, but in secret, we have cracked it. We've solved all the problems and we are ahead of everyone. Look, if that's the case, then there is absolutely a reason for them to sell a car.

I just am a little skeptical that what's going on there is actually, and we see it with the, oh, maybe we do need a steering wheel thing. It's actually a great belief in their own ability to solve the problem while actually not being able to solve the problem because it's a very, very hard problem.

I don't know about this whole thing. I really don't. I really don't know about this whole thing. I really don't. I really don't know about this whole thing. Like I'm now starting to read this as they committed so much time and money that now somebody has said, you got to ship something. We might as well just make a, Hey,

people will buy an Apple car for a hundred thousand and it'll be kind of like a Tesla. I think that's me. That may be where we end up is that they will ship a car. The rationalizing. It will, it will be made in partnership with some other car maker, but it will have the Apple stamp on it.

And it will, it will be, it will be like a Tesla, right? It will be a computer car. It'll have nice features. It'll be pricey, but it'll be nice.

It'll be maybe the luxury people will look at it and be like, this isn't like they do with Tesla's and be like, well, this is weird. But the, the nerds will look at it and go, yay, it's a,

it's a computer car. Uh, and it will do some level of like, it'll do what Tesla does. It'll have like, Oh, it's got a sensor to tell you when you've changed lanes and a sensor to turn on the high beams and,

and like, and it'll on the high, it'll have like limited autonomy features in specific circumstances, but you still have to beams and, and like, and it'll on the high, it'll have like limited autonomy features in specific circumstances, but you still have to pay attention. And like, you can see how if they back off far enough, they'll literally just be making a Tesla, except it'll be an Apple. Um, and, and I think that if I, if you, if you had to ask me to, to predict what the most likely scenario is for the Apple car, my number one would be none.

And my number two would be it'll basically be like a Tesla. Not a revolutionary autonomous vehicle, but more or less the same kind of thing we see from Tesla where it's a computer car that's got those, you know, very mild machine learning based features. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Trade Coffee. Big fan of Trade Coffee because I love coffee. I drink coffee every single day. Every morning starts with a good cup of coffee. If you're like me, you should be checking out Trade Coffee because they make it super easy to get the very best coffee delivered fresh from the finest local roasteries around the country. Trey Coffee is a coffee subscription service that makes it so simple for you to discover something new and make your best cup of coffee at home every single day. with not just independent roasters, but the top-rated independent roasters to make sure that you're going to get new coffee that you're going to love, sent fresh and directly to your

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Our thanks to Trade Coffee for their support of this show and all of RelayFM. Let's finish out today's episode with some hashtag ask upgrade questions. Jack asks, why do you think Safari extensions don't work in in-app browsers on iOS? Is it just something Apple hasn't gotten to yet? Drives me mad when I'm blinded by a white website at night because it wasn't norified uh warified noirified yeah noir is a great safari extension i i assume that it's a security issue that they that they don't want um extensions rewriting stuff inside apps, but I don't know. It is, I mean, all I can say is I don't know the answer to this. I assume that there's a reason.

I hate it too. I hate it too. I also hate it because here's a funny thing i use twitterific and i always have it in dark mode even though my ipad isn't always in dark mode i have twitterific in dark mode just because i like it and it means that all web views in twitterific load in dark mode it's super weird i and i don't understand and is it like is it inheriting a flag that's coming from the app? And so it's decided that since the Twitter background is, I don't know. Anyway, able to affect that in any way, I think maybe they are setting that they're in a dark mode.

And then when they open the web view, because if I then open it in Safari, it just opens in the normal view. So they seem to be, it seems to be inheriting the view that's coming from Twitter, Twitterific. And maybe, you know, technically maybe it's a bug since it shouldn't be inheriting the view that's coming from Twitter, Twitterific. And maybe, you know, technically, maybe it's a bug since it shouldn't be doing that. But anyway, my point is, I don't, I don't know why my guess is that Apple has some reason that involves a scenario where either they don't, either they just don't want to build that interface, or they haven't built

that interface yet into the simplified interface of a web view. But it's also possible that there is a security concern where they don't want to have the ability to rewrite the contents of web browser, in-app web browsers, either for the sake of the developer who's not getting what they expect or for the sake of the user who might be seeing something that is not what they're actually supposed to be seeing i don't know but i hate it too that's my answer is i i wish it was also not true somebody out there who knows the answer uh that you can who's at apple can tell us great tell us we'll we'll do some ask upgrade follow-up next time because i would like to know if there's a real reason or if it's just like we haven't gotten to that yet. And also that person, if you could

just make it work. Just slide it in there. Just make a file a radar. No. Do a little pull request. Merge. Yeah. Drop that in. Just like a if in app browser, then extensions equals

yes. Semicolon. Brackets. This is one of my favorite ask upward questions of all time it comes from Connie if Apple events had a Marvel style post credit scene that would tease the next product that they're going to drop at the next keynote

what would you picture for one of the upcoming maybe mixed reality headset or Apple car right so you get the post-credit scenes where they're like oh something else is happening in the marvel cinematic universe what would apple do so i was imagining one i actually to pull from marvel so in the iron man movies right you know you'd get those uh scenes where you'd be looking at tony stark's face like the camera's like inside the helmet you know and you could see like his face talking to jarvis or whatever he's flying around i imagine one of those but

it's tim cook and he's got the ar helmet on and we don't see it but we know he's got it on and he's like wow and that's the end that's the post-credit scene you know that's what i imagine i feel like in the true uh true tradition of Marvel movies, it'll be like somebody we've never seen before, but who is known, but you've got to like go on the internet and look up who they are because you don't recognize them,

but they are a known person at Apple. Only the real hardcore nerds will recognize them. And you're like, what are they doing? And the truth is they're going to be revealed to be the next apple ceo but that doesn't happen until phase six and they drive away in a car that we only get a glimpse of we're like who was that and what were they driving i don't know maybe i'll look it up on the internet later the end oh have you not heard of that person they're the vice president of software architecture

oh the backstory there is amazing because they worked for Intel for a while and then they did a startup and then they came back to Apple, bought the startup and they came back. It's a complicated backstory, but you can read all about it. I've got a book that you can read about it if you want to. It's like, no, no, no, that's fine. I'll just wait for the next Apple event. They're really big on the weblogs.

It's a big deal on the weblogs. If you've read the weblogs, then you'll know all about them. Oh, man. I love that question. And I read your answer in the document earlier and I chuckled to myself. I enjoyed that a lot, Jason. Thank you. This is very good.

John asks, this is a Jason Snell question, if you could choose one feature from the iphone 14 pro to have in your 13 mini what would it be this this actually was harder than i thought because i kept coming up with new answers uh-huh i was like oh well obviously it will be the and then i realized so it was like the camera it's going to be the camera i just want that camera the camera is so great and the camera and the mini is kind of lacking. So I want that camera. And then I thought about it and I thought, well, no, I could survive with the mini camera,

but the number one reason I'm still using the, my review unit of the iPhone 14 is because I want to write and talk about the dynamic Island. So I have to say the dynamic island because it would let me go back to my mini and I'd still have the dynamic island there. But the, but the feature that I would be truly envious of is the camera, the camera, cameras on that iPhone 14 pro are amazing. But if I had to pick one, because I have not bought a new iPhone and I want to keep using the mini, but the problem is I do need to actually like the state of the art for the iPhone right now is the Pro phone with the dynamic island. I can't not use that, even though that phone is huge and weighs a ton and i i really would rather be using my mini

so uh if if i magically got a dynamic island on my iphone mini i'd be very happy and craig asks are you still using or enjoying the playdate is it still a good purchase now that you spent more time with it i'm very happy that i bought it yeah Yeah. I wish I was playing it more. I'm not playing it more for two reasons. One is, as I've mentioned several times, I understand why they made the decisions they did, but not having a backlit screen limits where I can play it. And there are times where I think, oh, I could play the play date. And I realize, well, I can't because there's not enough light because it really needs to be in a well-lit situation. And the other reason is just me. I am not a big game player. I like the idea of playing games. And then I almost always choose something else to do with my time. I prioritize other things over games a lot.

And I am amazed by my friends who play lots of games, but my understanding is they're also amazed by the fact that I've read more than 50 books this year. So I guess that's part of it, is I'm watching movies and TV shows and doing podcasts about them and I'm reading books and games don't often rise up to that moment. But that said, I've loved a lot of the games on the Playdate. And there are a few in particular that I've been meaning to write a story about, like the ones that I absolutely love. And I would absolutely sign up for a season two of games. Um, and I would absolutely, you know, sign up for a season two of games and, um, I wish I played it more, but really in the end, I think it comes down to just not, I've, I brought it with me on trips being like, I'm going to play that play date.

And it's like, I don't, or I play it one time or I try to play it on the plane and realize that the light above the seat isn't bright enough at the right angle for me to play and stuff like that. So I'm happy i played it i wish i i like it so much that i wish i would play it more but it never um or rarely seems to rise to that and then every now and then i'm like oh yeah play date and then i'll go and i'll play some more pickpock pup or whatever that one is that's kind of like asteroids and i'll just play those again because i love them. I basically agree with 100% of everything you said

and feel exactly the same. Like my only difference is I got a Steam deck. Yeah, you do play games. I play lots. And so that has opened up the amount of games that I play. And I've just had a lot of really, really good big games that I've wanted to play this year. And there's a bunch that I haven't even gotten to.

So if I'm going to play games for any period of time, I'm choosing those bigger experiences. But I love the play day. I would do the same. Like if they announced the season two, I would be all in. Whenever they announced that Bluetooth clock dock speaker thing, I'm all in on it. Because I think it

is a beautiful piece of hardware. It's very fun and I do hope that one day that they're able to do a second play date and it does have a back backward screen i think it would make a big difference i agree with you i understand why they did it look i make i make products too right like i understand that you have to make trade-offs right like to either achieve something you're looking for or even to just make the thing right like you have to make compromises i mean it's fundamentally a casual yeah game game handheld which is a funny category and that's a casual indie you know game handheld little cute all those things but all those things actually kind of drive it towards situations where

having it be lit up would make a huge difference and i understand why it's not but like to me with my product reviewer hat on that is what i would say is like i i i love almost everything about it and i understand why they made the choice they did to not have a a light up display but it dramatically reduces the opportunity i have to actually use it. And I do love playing games on it, but a lot of the, most of the times that I might play it, I'm in places where I can't play it. That's the truth of it. Yeah.

So if you are still thinking about it, I still recommend it. I think it's a really fun little system, like a fun gadget, a fun toy kind of thing. But it is not perfect and but some of the games on it are so good it's worth it like the what was it bloom just a wonderful game like there's one of the games that i bought and side loaded that's just unbelievable

yeah pick upPop is fantastic. There's some great stuff. There's still some games I haven't played. There's a couple of games I actually have not played yet, which I still want to. It's a good little system. Yeah, big fans. If you'd like to send in a question of your own, just send out a tweet with the hashtag AskUpgrade or use the question mark

AskUpgrade on the RelayFM members Discord, which you can get access to if you sign up for Upgrade Plus. Go to getupgradeplus.com You can support the show and thank you to Trade Coffee and Squarespace and CleanMyMacX for the support of this show. But as always, thank you for

listening and thank you for welcoming me back into your podcast rotation whether you like it or not I suppose. Here I am. I had a nice break but I'm happy to be back on Upgrade we've got a very fun next few weeks I enjoy this time of year around here, got some good stuff coming up

if you want to find Jason online go to sixcolors.com and he's at Jason L I am YKE and we'll be back next week until then, say goodbye Jason Snell goodbye Mike Hurley Y-K-E, and we'll be back next week. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow. Goodbye, Mike Hurley.