Upgrade - 45: Grandpa's Superhero

Episode Date: July 13, 2015

Jason and Myke dive into the iOS 9 and El Capitan public betas, then divert to both Pluto and San Diego to talk space exploration and Comic-Con.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode number 45 today's show is brought to you by squarespace build it beautiful stamps.com postage on demand and the new mexico tea company making excellent teas available to people all around the world my name name is Mike Curley and I am joined, as always, by your host of mine, Mr. Jason Snell. Hello, Mike. How's it going? I'm very well, sir. How are you? It's Monday. Start of a new week. Upgrade time. It's Monday. It is. It is like, this is just how we start our week. Although you live an entire Monday before you get to this point. Yeah, it's 7 p.m. in the evening right now.

It's Monday morning, so it's 7 p.m in the evening right now it's it's monday morning so it's really the the kickoff i i can do some some basic stuff at the beginning but this is this is really the big kickoff of my uh of my week right here yep we uh i guess that's what the relay and relay is for so i begin to end my day you start your day that's how it works and so we do this thing i thought i thought you meant that this is just the first leg in a marathon relay of podcasts that last the entire week all the way through. How about that? That too. Monday to Friday. Worldwide.

Really? Yeah. Sure. Switch on. That's all I know. Should we do some follow-up? Yeah, that's a good idea. So Paul wrote in, because if you remember last week, Jason, you were bemoaning the fact that on Apple Music,

you cannot shuffle a whole artist. Right. And I had several people say, well, sure you can. You just add all of their music to your music library and then shuffle it. I was like, that's not what I meant. No. You meant you take one artist and then you just shuffle all their music right is the idea yeah yeah i find a random artist that i kind of

am interested in and say all right just play me uh you know shuffle everything and uh you know you can choose if there's a curated playlist you can do that but otherwise you need to add it to your library in order to do it but paul had a little nuance that we hadn't uh mentioned which i liked so basically uh what paul said that when you have these uh artists um i don't know if it's in your library or not i think this is even in your library if you have two albums or less you have an option to shuffle everything but if you have more than two, then you cannot shuffle. There is no shuffle option. Does it make any sense?

I don't know. I mean, I will grant you that a lot of these artists, the catalogs are messy, right? I was talking to Dan Morin about this earlier. We had a little Skype chat that a podcast almost broke out, but we stopped it in time. I was like, I'm going to say that for the other podcast. But we were talking about this. Everybody uses music differently. It's such a complicated thing that it is true that I think that Apple Music feels like it's a work in progress, but it's also,

let's give them some credit. This is a very difficult thing to get right. And they're starting from, not from scratch, but from like a year of Beats music development. But one of the problems here is you see an artist and you say, well, I would like to just sort of shuffle through their work. live stuff and singles and there's all this junk in there that's probably not canonical like you wouldn't want it in the shuffle um ideally and so that's a problem how do you do that and you know i i think basically if they've if they've covered it with playlists then you're pretty good that you could just listen to the you know the the uh intro to whatever playlist and that would be a good way to get started with an artist but they're not always available to whatever playlist and that would be a good way to get started with an artist but they're not always available and uh you know so i don't know maybe maybe they need to i like the idea of sort of saying here here are all of their studio albums would you like to listen to all of this or add all of these or something like that because right now it is kind of messy because you'll get all this

extra you know itunes sessions and other stuff like that that's thrown in, and single versions that are just the same song that's over there, but it's over here, which makes sense if you're buying music, but not if you're just subscribing. Or an album's deluxe edition. Oh, yeah, I see that a lot, the deluxe edition. Beats used to do a good thing with this, where I haven't looked for this on apple

music i don't know if it does it when you'd see an album and then it would have a little drop down it's a one other version or whatever and it would show if there was the deluxe edition or limited edition or re-edition or whatever or maybe uh like a remaster you could select and it would you could press the drop down it would select you could choose which one you wanted to listen to quite like that kept kept the view a bit cleaner i was doing i did a search this weekend for um david bowie for uh ziggy stardust and the spiders from mars because there's a uh there's in one of the four episodes of the incomparable that i dropped last week there's a sing-along at the end to a couple of songs from that album and i wanted to listen to the originals perhaps to clear the sing-along out of my head and I discovered that indeed there was the 30th

anniversary edition or whatever and then there was also the um the original and it's just you know it's just kind of messy I think one of them was just you know the main album and one of them is the main album plus a bunch of bonus material but you know it's just kind of messy that it's not you know this is one of the challenges with these, you know, it's just kind of messy that it's not, you know. This is one of the challenges with these catalogs is sometimes there's just a whole lot of junk. And then when you have access to all of it, it gets more complicated. That was on episode 255B of The Incomparable.

Yes, it was. You're killing me, you know. You are killing me right now. We released 255A, B, C, and D last week. How many more are there? No, that's, well, that. We released 255 A, B, C, and D last week. How many more are there? No, that's, well, that's it for 255. Yeah, I guess this is a follow-up. I'll just mention it.

We did this thing called the Summer Superhero Spectacular where for Comic-Con, because last week was Comic-Con. We're going to talk about that later. Four days of Comic-Con, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And we had the stupid idea to do a superhero tournament with four regions, 64, not teams 64 heroes and have completely arbitrary judgments about who the you know which hero was going to move forward who the more awesome hero was and um i had no idea and went for like two and a half hours it was and i had no idea how we were going to release it when

we recorded and i thought you know comic-con's coming up what about releasing one of those four regions um every day for the run of comic-con so we did that abcd and um and the the story is that halfway through um my uh i've got the retina iMac on an arm. And over time, if I'm not careful, the power cord gets more taut as I kind of move the arm up and down and tilt it and stuff like that. It gets sort of like it keeps sliding down the back of the desk. So when we're about halfway done, we've been going for a while. I decided to reposition my iMac and the power cord popped out the back. So one, I lost my recording and we weren't streaming it live so i had no backup so the first two episodes are a Skype track from someone else of me because my my microphone track wasn't recorded so that was bad i didn't notice that by the way the Skype track dropped um the Skype connection dropped entirely

so i have some of the people on were recording using Skype, but some of them just had a recording going in the background. And so I ended up with, once we pieced everything together, we got back on the call, we did the other two regions, we finished this three hour long marathon session.

When I put the thing in Logic to edit it, there is all of this sound from when people's call had dropped of them going, oh oh geez the call dropped stupid skype you know they say things and then and then as the call picks back up then everybody kind of comes back um and we had just uh talked about uh it's a long story but we you know we talked about a character named starman and they had begun to sing Starman by David Bowie. And so when, um, when,

uh, the call dropped, uh, Steve Lutz and Phil Michaels just sort of kept singing David Bowie. And as they came back together, it sort of turned into a duet. And so that's at the end of episode B, but,

but it was literally, we were just, the reason it happened is that we, people were killing time because, uh, everything was ruined by Maya. That's how that happened. I thought they were singing together.

Well, they were. So they were singing together and then they were singing separately and then they were singing together again when the call came back. So he sort of... The call dropped and I cut some stuff out in the middle,

but the call dropped and then Steve just sort of started singing on his own as the call came back and then at some point, Phil rejoined, heard Steve singing, and then he began to sing. And it made me laugh. Every time I hear it, it makes me laugh. But anyway, that was why I was looking up Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars,

because I only vaguely, I never owned that album, and I only vaguely know those songs. And that was a great use of Apple Music, actually, once I picked which edition I wanted. And so so yeah so there's there's a little follow-out um a little podcast story and a little apple music all rolled together in in one okay so elton john's rocket hour i wanted to just let people know that i listened and loved it yep that was that was good that that happened right that happened right uh after our show last week, right? Yeah, I caught the rebroadcast on Tuesday.

Right, and I heard it Monday night when you were sleeping while we were driving back from LA. And it gave me everything that I thought it was going to and everything I wanted. It highlighted Elton's varied music tastes. Also, they shared some great stories as well. And now I have a calendar entry for 2 p.m. every Tuesday to remind me to listen in. Yeah, that's good. I mean, I think I've heard a bunch of podcasts talking about,

like I was listening to ATP talk about the tyranny of radio and all that, which I kind of agree with, but I was really happy how we described it last last week that um this is uh you know if if the point of beats one is not just to play some music right it's supposed to have like it's these are like shows they're they're like entertainment shows they're they're about the personalities involved and if you're listening just to hear pristine like just a song and then another song and then maybe a voice comes in and says, that was the name of that song. That's not, that's not the point, you know, and that's what radio used to be. And I think that's not the point of Beats 1. So having Elton John do that, I, I, I follow Beats 1 on Twitter now. And I was, Lauren was

working an evening shift and I was done editing or recording a podcast, something like that. And I saw this tweet about a new show starting on, on beats one. It was, it was Ellie Goulding, the pop star. And I started playing that. And while I was making dinner and that was really a lot of fun.

I mean, she's a pop star, but she was playing like electronica and one show. And then the show I listened to, it like got into alternative and then heavy metal after a while. and you know that that i didn't like everything that i heard but it was just a lot of fun to do that and i i listened while i was making dinner and and i think that that's the interesting thing about about beats one and then you can go back and there's a playlist so i was able to find the the songs that i really liked and add those and listen

and explore those artists yeah you can just search their names. They come up as a curator and you can find the playlists attached. Yeah, yeah. That was a lot of fun. And the rock show got harder as it went and it sort of verged out of what I liked after a while. But there were some tracks, especially early on, that I really liked. And now I'm going back and listening to her playlist of her previous show.

But I'll check that out. And I love, that's actually one of the things I really like. The St. Vincent's mixtape delivery is the same thing. Finding these people who are not just musicians, but are people who love music. And having them present music that they like to you in an hour a week. It's just a slice of their worldview of music. These people who are, whether it's Elton John or it's somebody like St. Vincent or Ellie Goulding, that's really interesting.

And again, it's not something that I would listen to just in the background because I don't listen to music that way. But when I'm in a place where I kind of want to listen to something or I want to make time to listen to something that I think is going to be an interesting journey that i i'm paying attention to then that really works for me so you had some uh follow out for atp yeah i just wanted to mention i mean it's funny that we follow out to atp because you know they they have many more listeners than we do. Well, that's right. You know. And I love that podcast and listen to it every week. And I had to listen.

I got behind. They lapped me. I had to listen to two ATPs, but I was doing a lot of housework this weekend, so it was not a problem. I was back to listening to John Syracuse while mowing my lawn, like in the classic hypercritical days, but with bonus Casey and Marco.

It was just, I wanted to mention it because we talked about the Safari is the new IE thing last week and in ATP 125 they talked about it I found it's one of those things where it was like reconcilable differences so to speak

between Marco and John where you know Marco would say one thing and John would say another thing and I agreed with both of them and I'm not sure they felt like they were agreeing or disagreeing. Um, I did, I did have one note. John talked for a while about how like the open web is good and, and, and, um, it's in everybody's best interest that the open web continue to grow. And I agree with that. Um, but at the same time I had a moment of, of, I had a moment of slight disagreement with Mr. Syracuse, because I feel like what got unsaid there was this idea that the dream of creating mobile apps using web

technologies, so that if you can't or won't build native apps, but you can still be on Android and iOS, that's a nice dream. And I can see why you would say, well, that's good that there's something that not everybody controls that people can use to build these things. But for me, I just get flashbacks to the Java era where people told us you're going to be able to write once and run it everywhere. And the fact was that stuff was really bad. It was mediocre at best. And it was not tied to a particular platform. And that was actually bad because when stuff isn't tied to a particular platform, and that was actually bad. Because when stuff isn't tied to a particular platform, it's generic.

It doesn't feel like your native stuff. And I'm not sure that that, you know, yes, an open web is good for users. But if it leads in that direction, then, if it leads in that direction, I'm not sure it leads to some place that creates products that are good for the user experience. And I'm not sure, you know, I get John's point and I agree with it that the last thing you want is everything to be completely controlled by platform vendors and that there's no other way into these devices other than by building native apps. But I think that people are not talking enough when they talk about this issue, about the fact that one size fits all multi-platform apps, even if we believe Lauren Brichter

that you can build something that's gonna be super awesome, 60 frames per second response. It's not gonna be slow. It's not going to be slow. It's going to be able to do what native apps do in that way. I still am not convinced that they aren't going to look weird and be weird and also lag behind technologically because they'll all be based on something that comes through a standards body,

whereas Apple can hold a WWDC and say, here are some new APIs, ships in the fall, and the apps will take advantage of it. They can't do that with the web technologies. So anyway, but otherwise, I thought it was a really great discussion. Marco was definitely on the same wavelength that I am on this,

but I thought John's points were really great as a web developer. And Casey's nice too, but he didn't have as much to say on that episode. So there you go. And just before we jump into our topics today, there was just one thing that I wanted to bring up. Satoru Iwata, who was the CEO of Nintendo of America and the president of Nintendo, passed away last night. And that is an incredible loss to technology and video gaming. Iwata was

an incredible man and he did amazing things and the people that are interested in video games to the level that I am and some other people on Relay are, this isn't akin, this is a loss akin to Steve Jobs. They had died around the same sort of age

Iwata was 55, and he was someone who was a real visionary. Nintendo might not be doing as well right now, but potentially they're on the upswing. They're making some big changes in their company. But Iwata's time at Nintendo saw both the Nintendo DS and the Wii U, some of the biggest selling games consoles of all time.

During his time, he was responsible for both of them. He was a man who had incredible technical achievements as well. He was a developer, and even as a CEO, was contributing code. CEO and president was... Sorry, the Wii. I said the Wii U, but I meant to say the Wii. The Wii, yeah yeah the original marketing problems he was contributing code as a president and there's just a bunch of great stories on the internet right now

so I'll include a couple of links in the show notes if you want to read a bit more find out a bit more about him but I just wanted to mention it today because I think that it is an incredibly important story in technology and I'll go amiss about mentioning it. Yeah, glad you mentioned it.

I imagine you'll talk more about that maybe on another program later this week. We'll be talking about it on virtual and I expect that the Isometric gang will be discussing it as well. I would imagine. A couple of shows there on Relay you can go to and our shows this week I'm sure will be discussing it as well. I would imagine. A couple of shows there on Relay you can go to and our shows

this week I'm sure will be completely dedicated to Iwata and his life. It's very sad. Very sad. So we should take a break. Let's thank our first sponsor this week and then we can start talking

about some public beta related issues that we want to talk about today and good stuff too. I'm thrilled to welcome back the New Mexico Tea Company. So much for this week's episode. We've had them sponsor a couple of weeks ago. The New Mexico Tea Company has been sourcing fantastic loose leaf tea from all over the world and they can deliver it to you. They discover and import great teas, but they also make some on their own. They make some great teas themselves as well. They are focused on making excellent teas available to people all around the world. They have a great store where they can do this. You can go and buy

whatever you want. And I've heard a bunch of you have been trying out some of the teas that we mentioned. I heard from David at the New Mexico Tea Company. But what I wanted to talk to you a little bit today is I really wanted to mention their Tea of the Month Club, and I brought it up last time. But this is such a fantastic deal. Basically, for $19.99 a month, you get three different teas, and they last year around 50 cups. And it's a really fantastic thing to try out because you'll be receiving not only teas that are kind of like that will be your normal type of thing. You know, you can choose if you want to receive pure tea or herbal tea, but you're also going to

get some interesting new stuff to try. So, you know, everyone can go to a store and buy the things that they're used to, but you want to find out new stuff, right? You want to get new tastes and things like that. And this is what the Tea of the Month Club at the New Mexico Tea Company can give you. You'll be subscribing and you'll have excellent tea at home always. But you'll be also broadening your horizons, trying some new high-grade specialty teas and really kind of going out there and trying some new stuff. So, you know, I mentioned that the New Mexico Tea Company had sent me a box of stuff to try out and there was stuff in there that I was familiar with.

But now my favorite teas that they have in this box is stuff that I never would have tried on my own. So it's like, you know, they're like more maybe like fruity. There's this one. I'm trying to find the name of it now. Jason, why don't you talk about it? And then I'll grab the tea that I've been trying this week. And I can explain to people what I like about it. All right.

explain to people what I like about it. All right. Well, today I had for the first time, the Royal Yunnan, which is a rich and malty Chinese organic black tea. I put some milk in it because the malty teas I like with milk. And it was really nice. And this goes with the, again, I've had the Earl Grey, I've had the Canadian breakfast and the English breakfast. And we had their green tea. I've had one of their fruity teas that actually is a summer tea that they recommend you make iced tea with. So I did that. Lots of different. The variety is amazing. And I like how the way they've set up the Tea of the Month Club is the idea is you drink a cup of tea a day and two two on the weekends um and that that

is how much tea you get every month from them and i like the idea of of um of having some surprises some surprise and delight in the in the box is a smart idea too so there's two teas that i've been trying and enjoying and these are things i never would have tried on my own one is called lucky summer um which is Rooibos. That's the one that I made iced tea out of. Oh, really? Yeah, I love it. I drink it hot as well.

How do you say this? Rooibos? I don't know. I don't either now. Peach. It has peach, different types of fruit, lemongrass, spearmint, and peppermint, which is a really weird mix when you put it on paper, but tastes incredible. spearmint and peppermint which is a really weird mix when you put it on paper but tastes incredible and pondy cherry which is cherry berries uh rose hips uh hibiscus and some other natural

flavorings as well and these are things i never would have tried on my own so that one i can tell you is hibiscus it's i like saying it like that someone said it to me that way before and i can't stop saying it i think it was in starbucks because they were doing this like hibiscus thing before and the lady called it hibiscus and it's just become like a joke between me and a friend and now i can't help but say it it is not greek greek uh it is um and uh i think it's rubus rubos rubos rubus something like that emboss it's pronounced hibiscus mike that's what i'm saying yeah so like you know this is just an example of some of the incredible stuff that you can get.

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so nmteaco.com slash upgrade and i'm sure that you're going to find something that you like go support us by supporting them go check out the the New Mexico Tea Company. Thanks so much. Yay. Tea. Right. So public beta time, huh? Yeah. Tis the season for public betas.

So many public betas. Last week, we got the El Capitan public beta and the iOS 9 public beta, which came right, like, I think a day or two after the presumably presumably the same build, more or less, got ceded to developers. So now for the first time, people with iOS devices can publicly, you know, can beta test just by signing up for the public beta, can use a beta of the next version of iOS. Last year, we did this for macOS, but it wasn't until I think early this year that iOS public beta started. So the world can be as dangerous as you want it to be. And you've been trying them out, right? Yeah. So I've got iOS 9 on an iPad Air 2 that I got specifically for iOS 9 testing. And then I did put the public

beta on my iPhone, which I'm a little hesitant to do. And I would not do it under normal circumstances, but I've got to write about this stuff. So I've got to live with it. And I have a laptop here with El Capitan on it, and I haven't put it on my Mac yet, although I probably will do that this week just because I think I've got to live with it. The problem with this is this is my production Mac here. I record podcasts. I edit podcasts on it, and I write on it. So I think I'm just going to kind of cross my fingers and know that I've got my laptop, my MacBook Air. If there's something that I just can't do on this current public beta build,

I'll have to switch to the laptop to do that part and then come back. But that's because I do this for a living, right? I write about this and talk about this stuff. So I have to use it. I don't think I would recommend that anybody, especially iOS, like don't put this on your phone unless you really, really, really, really are prepared for causing pain because you're going to get weird bugs and things crashing. And that's just how it is. Like developers can't even release their apps if they're built against iOS nine to the app store or put on test flight if you're a beta tester for some apps. I believe they can't even do that yet. So what ends up happening is people write app reviews and say this app sucks because it doesn't work right on iOS 9 public beta,

which is really about as unfair as it gets because in many cases they can't they're things they can't do um not only that but of course it's not fair to ask developers to be uh to have their apps be functional on beta software because it can't be in some instances i mean there are some crashes i guess that people can fix but some stuff it's gonna break and you might not be able to fix it and i don't even know if you can submit i mean you can submit some fixes i think but it's going to break and you might not be able to fix it. And I don't even know if you can submit. I mean, you can submit some fixes, I think, but it can get a bit sort of sketchy as to what you can kind of fix when on the previous version. Federico wrote a nice little piece about this.

He kind of like, it broke down the problems and what Apple tries to do, but then make some suggestions for what Apple should do. If you're a beta tester and you want to be helpful, you could contact the developer of your favorite app that doesn't work quite right in iOS 9 and say, hey, I'm using the iOS 9 public beta. You probably are aware that your app doesn't work,

you know, doesn't do this, doesn't work right in this way. If you are looking for people to test your app, I would be happy to do that because I love your app and I'm on the public beta. They can say no. They may say no. They probably will say no. But you could do that if you wanted to. That wouldn't be unreasonable. And they might, you know, they might like another tester and they might not. But you also have to be prepared to the fact that things are not going to work until another build of iOS 9 or until iOS 9 comes out. And this is why I think you should really hesitate before installing a public data, especially of iOS 9 on your iPhone.

Because your iPhone is so important to you. All of our iPhones, super important to us. super important to us. And, you know, like my iPad is important to me, but it's less like crucial because I'm usually using it in the house and there are other devices around. My iPhone, I'm using it out and about. And if I, if it breaks, I just am out of luck, which is not fun. And my Mac, I feel like the Mac, you can work around problems because it's a Mac and there's many more ways to do things on a Mac than there is on an iOS device. So I just go in with a lot of caution, especially iOS. iOS betas are weird and the apps will crash and app developers can't really fix a lot of those problems right now. And, you know, just warning just warning warning sign flashing warning sign um there

was something that i wanted to mention about uh the app review part like people leaving app reviews because when yeah i see people talking about this on twitter or whatever like you you always see people that kind of like lash out and be like oh oh, that person's an idiot. Those people shouldn't know how to use computers, that kind of thing. And I think that that's unfair because I think that the thing about this is we all install the betas because we're interested in what's coming next, right? But there are lots of nerdy people out there

who feel exactly the same, right? They want to, but they're not necessarily as in tune with the independent developer community. Like those two Venn diagrams, they don't completely overlap. I think there are people that are nerdy who like kind of gadgets and tinkering and stuff. They read Apple websites and stuff, but they don't like follow indie app developers on Twitter. So they're not necessarily like, I don't think that people necessarily know the effect of this stuff can happen or know that this isn't a good way to submit feedback or whatever,

or even know that apps should or shouldn't be updated to fix these problems, right? Like, I don't know if people necessarily know that like an app developer can't update their apps for iOS 9 stuff. So I find it a bit strange when people lash out against these people. I don't think it's their problem or their fault. Because as well, you should read the things that it says on Apple's website. Who does? I didn't know it said anything about it on Apple's website when I downloaded the El Capitan public beta.

I didn't read it. I just downloaded it, right? Because I know best. So I think really this is apple's problem to solve like and not just to put some a line in some documentation if it is really a problem then they should look into it and it probably is an issue because i expect that it is affecting some developers you know it might have like perfect five star ratings and then they get some one star ratings because of this and then you kind of look at somebody's overall development stuff

and you see the average start to go down and you might question whether you want to buy the app. So it probably does make an effect, but personally I think that this is something that Apple need to do more about and I actually don't think that it's in education because I don't think you can do that. I think they need to prevent

people from doing this. And in my own personal opinion on this, I know why some people don't like this idea, but I think that anybody that signs up for the beta should have reviews turned off at their Apple ID. Yeah, or only be visible for people running the public beta. Yeah. Like in a sandbox or something.

I agree with you. I mean, put yourself in the mind of a developer here. You are probably, let's say you're updating your app for iOS 9. You are kicking hard for the release of iOS 9 in the fall. That is what you're targeting. And so the public beta comes out and you hear from people who are like, oh, your current version doesn't work in the public beta. And you're like, okay, well, I'm working on a new version. I can't release it to the App Store right now.

And what a terrible position to be put in as a developer of trying to fix bugs for the public beta users instead of just working on the big picture of getting that final version done for the final version of iOS 9. And that's what developers, some developers are in that position right now where they're like, do I fix this so that it runs for the people? And it's for themselves too, right? Because they're probably running development versions of iOS 9 as well. But, you know, priorities here. I think their priority should be the finish line, not this, you know, the starting of the public beta.

That's dumb. So, yeah, it's too bad because, you know, you need to know what the rules are for being a beta tester and complaining that there are bugs and that third-party apps don't always work right.

You know, you're there. The purpose of the public beta is for people to give feedback to Apple and third-party developers about things that aren't working right. And it's not just to make people who are really excited about living in the future a chance to live in the future for a couple of months.

So I also encourage you, if you do use any of these public betas, use the feedback assistant and give Apple feedback, because they are actually listening and learning. And we saw last summer some changes made in Yosemite based on feedback. So they are totally listening. I can tell you that. They're not just listening to anonymous crash data, which you can say to provide to Apple where they can count what the crashes are and things like that, but they're listening to feedback. They listen to the radar bug reporter feedback from developers, but they listen to the feedback assistant stuff from users as well. this path definitely give feedback about things you find that don't work right but writing you know not writing nasty app reviews instead give feedback and the feedback assistant so that apple can fix the problems for the general public release which doesn't come until whatever september probably so i don't have an awful lot to say about on capitan um i put it on my macbook pro a couple

of days ago um which is not the machine that I use to record I wouldn't do that right smart but it's the machine that I use every day but I was confident putting it on there because it was just like you know what's the worst that could happen but I have another Mac

like if everything exploded I could start over again right right and I've been I've been pretty happy with it I've you know I very much like looking at San Francisco on this machine as well as I like looking at my iPad as well. The new system font.

The new system font. I think it's very good looking. And I wished that more apps that I had used the system font as their font choice, right? So they would update. Some of my apps do. Like, I think, yeah, OmniFocus, I think, yeah, it's using San Francisco.

But, like, you know, TweetBot isn't. Like, I would like to see more San Francisco, you know? I think it's a very, very nice font. I like looking at it. Nice if I could choose it or something. Anyway, so that's cool. I like the split screen stuff. I use full it or something. Anyway, so that's cool. I like the split screen stuff. I use full screen a lot. I have my web browser in full screen. It's the way that I like to work.

And today I was doing some show follow up and prep whilst using two browser windows side by side in full screen. And I really like that. That's a great way for me to work rather than going from tab to tab or having to swipe from screen to screen, which is what I usually have to do. So having the two browser windows side by side is great. And yes, I know I could just put them on a desktop and resize them, but it doesn't work for me that way. I like doing it in full screen. I like that it snaps in immediately side by side and that the websites

take... It just all works and I don't have to worry about it. And I'm finding mission control and spaces to be way more responsive. And I like the way that you can just drag things from desktop to desktop really easily. You can drag it from the desktop onto a full screen window, then that makes it like a split screen window and you can drag it away again it's really easy to make something full screen by just dragging it up into the mission control bar like way like a lot easier than before I really like it I mean because I am one of the people that uses all those features on a daily basis they use all the gestures and stuff like that. And I found it to be way better.

The big mouse thing is annoying me. Wow. Because... Can you turn it off? I haven't tried. I'm trying to just live with it to see if I get used to looking for it. But like at the moment, the only time I ever see it is by accident.

So like I just move my mouse and it goes... I'm like, what are you doing? I haven't seen it currently. Like I'm looking in the mouse settings and it isn't there. I'm sure my mouse and it goes, I'm like, what are you doing? I haven't seen it currently. Like I'm looking in the mouse settings and it isn't there. I'm sure you can turn it off, but I want to leave it on for a bit to see if I get used to shaking my mouse to find it. But I mean, I'm only using a 13 inch display.

Like it's not, I'm not having a hilariously difficult time trying to find my mouse at the best of times. But I actually do have to find the cursor a lot on the iMac. So not bragging or anything, but it's a really big screen. I've got nothing to commentate for, Jason. One thing I wanted to mention is something I found when I was, and I wrote up a thing on Six Colors and another thing on Macworld about the El Capitan public beta. I wrote a couple thousand words on Macworld about it.

The problem that what I'm finding, and again, it's beta, so there's time, is apps have been written for full screen mode because up to now, full screen mode meant that app was the only thing that was there, right? It was active. It was the only app you could see. Now, what split screen mode

is, is basically a variation on full screen mode. It's essentially full screen mode with two apps sharing the screen. And it's going to be interesting to see how app developers, including Apple, have to revise how they approach full screen mode. And it's also, I think maybe some questions I have for Apple about their approach to full screen mode. I say this because I was using Preview to write my story, actually. I was using Preview with a PDF of the reviewer's guide and I think the Notes app to take notes.

And so they were side by side in split screen mode and i would move over i would move my cursor over to the pdf and try to use the finger spread you know command to make it bigger and uh nothing happened now in the regular mode if you've got preview in the background and uh another app in the foreground and do that, that's the behavior is it doesn't do anything because it's not foregrounded. But in the split screen mode, I sort of feel like both apps are front most in a way. And I think the apps think that too, because the apps think like preview doesn't change when, let me, let me back up. So you've got two apps running side by side in split screen mode. This is now for the first time in full screen mode, one app is foremost foregrounded and the other one is not. And in

fact, the one that you've clicked in, if you move your cursor to the top of the screen, that's the one that shows in the menu bar. And if you click on the other one, then that one shows in the menu bar. So now there's this concept in full screen mode of which is the front most app. And an app that's not front most behaves differently. And some apps in their full screen mode don't even show you whether they're front most or not. Because they assume they are. So like preview looks like preview in split screen mode, whether it's selected or not, because what other app could be showing possibly it's in full screen mode, except now it's

not now it's in split screen mode. And so I have those moments where I think to myself, um, something's got to give here either, either Apple needs to change the behavior in split screen mode to do something, maybe even something like what they do in Unix where, you know, the focus changes when your cursor moves over the other app. Like when my, when my cursor moves over preview, preview acts like it's front, front most, and I can zoom in and stuff without clicking. Cause right now you have to click and then you click on it and nothing seems to happen, but it's come to the front, but you wouldn't know. And then you can zoom around, um, to your heart's content.

Zoom in, zoom out, whatever. And then if you start typing, the notes doesn't type anymore because you're not in notes anymore. You're in preview, but you can't even look at the menu bar to tell which one's front most because the menu bar is hidden. So I feel like, again, and it's a beta. So the question is, does this stuff get resolved now? Or does it not get resolved and this becomes a flaw in this concept for when El Capitan launches? We'll see. We'll see. But that was one of the first things that struck me is like, these apps don't quite know whether they're alone or not. And don't signify things that, you know, it doesn't make sense in full screen mode for you to care because you're the only app, but now they're not the only app. So is Apple going to revise preview? Are there going to be changes to full screen mode?

I don't know yet, but that was the thing that struck me is that it's a little bit weird right now that apps don't behave quite right. And the metaphor is a little bit weird right now that apps don't behave quite right and the metaphor is a little bit strange having two apps with the menu bar hidden um in in full screen mode because like one of the weird things is uh scrolling is possible in both no matter which one is foremost so you can scroll up and down but you can't pinch to zoom right so it's like you've got half of it there different apps have different behaviors based on whether they're in the foreground or in the background so like preview is a good example and other apps are like this where you can scroll in when it's in the background but you can't zoom um but that gets weird because then you're in full screen mode you're like okay well

some things i can do without clicking on it but other things i need to click first and then i can do other things with it um and with preview it's even weirder because you're not clicking to like edit something you're just clicking to click on something that's part of preview so that it comes to the foreground even though it is in the foreground technically right because well not technically it visually it's in the foreground because there's only two apps and they're there spatially. They're both at the top. But you still have to click on that one because it's not active because the other one's active.

See, this is it's tough stuff. This is not easy stuff. This is like the desktop metaphor. And every time you add something to it, there are complications around it. But that's just one of the first things that struck me about it. And I think it's less problematic on on iOS, although there's still some issues on iOS with the split screen view. I think it's a little less problematic because you are physically interacting. Yeah, that problem doesn't exist there because whatever you're touching becomes the current.

There's no hovering with a cursor and then doing a gesture but in the ios if we take the ios model and apply it here then absolutely when you move your cursor over it and do a pinch and zoom it should it should answer you know it should know that is what you're intending to work on but that's not how the mac works at all you don't you know moving because on unix you have this situation where you move your cursor over an app in some of the, like, X Windows kind of interfaces, and forgive me because

I'm sure there are specific names of specific kinds of Linux GUIs in which this happens. But the idea is that the focus follows the cursor. And for a Mac user, that's really weird. That the focus follows the cursor. That when your mouse moves over that app, that app is now where the focus is. And for a Mac user, that's really weird that the focus follows the cursor that when your mouse moves over that app, that app is now where the focus is. And for us, as Mac users, you click,

and then the focus comes. But, but, you know, yeah, I think that I think that is sort of broken in the split screen view, and and on the Mac, but on iOS, it makes sense, because you're touching that app, that app is going to respond, the only place where it gets a little weird is the keyboard. But even there, you have to tap to get an insertion point. You are tapping on something and saying, this is where I want the keyboard to be. And then the keyboard comes up. So it's a lot clearer there because it's not mediated by a little cursor that you move around.

Should we take a break? I think so. This week's episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Squarespace. Start booting your website today at squarespace.com and enter the offer code UPGRADE to get yourself 10% off. Squarespace.

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And when you decide to sign up, make sure that you use the offer code UPGRADE. It's going to get you 10% off your first purchase and show your support for this show. Thank you so much to Squarespace for helping us out today and for supporting us all at Rel fm squarespace beautiful beautiful squarespace so you've put in a little topic here uh which i did to help explain to me sure um i wrote a post about it last week um okay so we're recording this monday tomorrow morning my time the new horizons spacecraft will reach pluto formerly a planet now debatably a minor planet but we you know when we were growing up it was always the ninth planet and it's still one of the major bodies in the solar system. And I just, I am a space nerd. I admit it. That is one of my nerdinesses in addition

to computer nerdiness and pop culture nerdiness, which we're going to get to because Comic-Con also happened last week. But I wrote a post about it because I tried to cross the streams with my tech nerdiness and my space nerdiness. So the idea here is this, Pluto is very, very far away. It's like 3 billion miles away. We're 93 million, million miles from the sun. Pluto is 3 billion miles away. It is very, very, very, very far away. So far that it takes about four and a half hours for light or radio waves, in this case, to travel from Earth to the spacecraft. So very far away. And tomorrow, the spacecraft will zoom past Pluto and its moons and then into, you know, further deeper into the Kuiper belt and of icy objects that sort of surround the solar system and then out into interstellar space. So I think this is interesting for a few reasons. One is that I think

it's a great story of delayed gratification. They launched it in 2006. So they launched it before the iPhone. This is a spacecraft that was built before the iPhone existed. But it's a computer in there. So first off, the people who run this mission have been sitting for almost 10 years just waiting for it to get to its destination. And then literally it will blow past its destination in a day, less than a day. And that's it. So delayed gratification, and then boom, all of this stuff is going to happen. And that's going

to happen tomorrow. So I think that's really exciting. Tuesday, July 14th is when it's going to happen. And it's also a story of delayed gratification in that during its closest approach, when it's just gobbling up, because it's only got this one shot at it, so it's going to be taking pictures and using all of its instruments to gather all this data. One, it's too busy doing that to send anything back to Earth. And two, it's actually not going to be able to see Earth for part of it because of the way it has to position itself. Its antenna won't be pointed at the Earth. So it's delayed gratification in the sense that when this is all happening, the most exciting things, you can't see it live. Not even live delayed by 4.4 hours it takes for the transmissions to get back to Earth. It's going to be too busy to talk to us. So they're not going to know until tomorrow night, U.S. time, whether it survived or if

it hit like a piece of debris and was destroyed, which they say is a 1 in 10,000 chance. And they're flying it through the path of one of the moons of Pluto, the idea there being it's so big that there's no debris in its path because it swept it all up. So delayed gratification. And then here we get into the computery stuff. It's running a 12 megahertz processor. It's got a lot of solid state storage from a time when SSDs weren't common, but they built in, there's a lot of, that's their storage is they've got a lot of solid state storage. So, um, and it went into safe mode a couple of weeks ago. And this is the computer part of the story is it had a, it had a computer error when they were trying to put it into, um, it's full exploration mode and they had to debug it. Now, I just want, I just want you to imagine for a minute, debugging something that's, uh, first

off, it's a 12 megahertz computer. It's 3 billion miles away. Every command you send to it will take four and a half hours to reach it. And then another four and a half hours for the response to come back. And the good news is that they resolved this. They figured out what it was. They analyzed what they had done. They figured out that it had gone into a safe mode because they had, I think, put the commands in in the wrong order,

like just in the sequence, because you're dealing with very low power and this very slow processor. They've got it up and running now. So that's cool. The other thing we need to keep in mind is that I think it's a one megabit connection. No, one kilobit connection. One kilobit per second from beyond Pluto. So when they've prioritized, like they've scripted the whole mission, they know all of the

pictures it's taking. And then they prioritize, like that should be a good picture. That should be a good picture. And they picked this like really basic data set to be the first thing that once it points its antenna back at earth, these are the first things that we send. Like the ooh-ah pictures that are going to be on every website and every TV channel. They're going to send those first. But it's going to collect so much data tomorrow that it's going to take, get this, the next year for it all to come back. This little spaceship is going to continue motoring off you know into interstellar space and for the next year while it while they steer it toward you know they're

going to probably fly by another icy object out in deep space um but for the next year it's going to just very slowly dump everything back in fact they've got a whole script set up where like they're going to send lossy stuff first so they'll like send the jpegs they'll send things that'll have some image artifacts but they want to but they'll be smaller those will come first then they're going to send some thumbnails of everything then they'll send all the full quality ones and they have a whole script of what gets sent when over the course of not just weeks but months and almost a year, I think, of data from this one day and from this period as they've been approaching Pluto.

So I think it's a really interesting tech story in addition to being a space story that this is, you know, it's old tech anyway. Plus space tech is always even older because they've got to have like proven simple systems you can't you know you can't send a mechanic out to check on the computer when it's four billion miles away and then they also have to like harden all the parts against radiation so this is a special radiation hard hardened part so i think that's a fun story i also think there's an interesting angle which is to think what will the next set of space probes uh be? Because in the last 10 years, we've gotten really good at low-power, miniaturized technology. Like, mobile devices have really come on in the decades since New Horizons was being prepared for launch.

Horizons was being prepared for launch. And I think that's really interesting to think about. Will our knowledge in how to make mobile, I mean, this is as mobile as it gets, right? Send it out of the solar system. Will that lead, you know, they're not going to take something off the shelf that's cutting edge today and put it in a spaceship tomorrow. It's going to, there'll need to be some lag time. But would i i would imagine if this is what this uh this device is able to do a 12 megahertz processor is a from that was launched 10 years ago and probably designed and built 15 years ago if this is what this can do can you imagine what some stuff that's based on the what we've learned about making devices that can use less power and that are still very powerful and very compact, might mean for future stuff.

So I just think it's a fun subject, and hopefully we'll see some cool pictures. I'm happy that you've said about it, because I didn't really know anything about it at all. Yeah, so tomorrow you can pay attention to basically no news. It'll be us saying, well, it should be taking pictures now. And then we wait. And like I said, it's all about delayed gratification that New Horizons wants you to wait. But I think it's exciting. And when I was reading about their computer problem that they had

and seeing the old tech involved and the fact that we're talking about such a slow data link, and they have to have these radio telescopes all over the planet they're in australia they're in the u.s and they're somewhere else um maybe it's the uk they have to have this network of radio telescopes so that they're always and or receivers um because they're always uh uh you know they want to stay in connection even as the earth turns they need to stay in connection with the spacecraft. So it's just this incredibly hard technical problem. In addition to the science

that's going on with the observations, the ship itself and how we talk to it is like the solar system's hardest IT problem. So I think that's kind of fascinating too. So just before we started recording, the New Horizons craft settled the size of Pluto? I don't know if you saw this.

Yeah, that was in the press conference this morning. Yeah. Yeah. So that's interesting. I don't know if it means it can be a planet yet or not. I don't really understand if that's a possibility. Well, planet is not a, I mean, it's not actually a helpful phrase because it's more complicated than that. I think that, I mean, the International Astronomical Union came up with a redefinition of planets that I think nobody is particularly satisfied with. But the idea is Pluto is not like the other things we think of as planets. And it's more like these other objects that are icy objects at the distant reaches of the solar system. And what precipitated the whole thing is a guy named Mike Brown, who is Pluto killer on Twitter, by the way, discovered an object that is now called Eris.

And it is heavier than Pluto. And it kind of called the question. It's actually slightly smaller than Pluto, but it's more dense. So it's heavier. It's got more mass. And that made everybody go, huh, okay. Now we really have to do something. Either Eris is also a planet like Pluto is. Or we need to maybe say, you know, Pluto and Eris and these other little icy things all the way out at the edge that orbit in funny orbits that are not like any of the other planets.

Maybe they're not the same as all of the stuff, the other eight objects we call planets. Maybe they're a different kind of thing. And, you know, whether you want to call them planets or lesser planets or minor planets or icy objects or trans-Neptunian objects, whatever you want to call them, they are different. Because the discovery of Eris was like, all right, now we need to say. And then there's also a space probe around Ceres, which we've always talked of as an asteroid. It's in the asteroid belt, but it's round and big. And you could maybe argue, and I saw some scientists on Twitter the other day say, the more we look at Ceres, the less it looks like an asteroid. So you almost need to say it's a small planet.

And what is it? It's different. It just moves fast. It's just different even from Pluto. And, well, it's closer in and it's small. It's much smaller than the other planets in the inner solar system. But is it an asteroid or is it a planet? It's just kind of fun. But anyway, Mike Brown discovered Eris and that kind of made

everybody question the simple sort of nine planets approach that we taught kids in school. And they might be giants did a fun song about this on their Here Comes Science album. And one of the phrases they used is, you know, there's Pluto, Eris, and a bunch of other stuff out there. And it's okay to talk about all the frozen stuff that's out beyond Neptune. And that's cool. But I recommend Mike Brown's book. He has a book, I think it's called, it's like How I Killed Pluto, which is actually a lot of fun about how yeah it's how i killed pluto and why i had it coming it's a good book about it's a good title it's a really

and he is he is pluto killer on on twitter so he's enjoying i'm sure he's enjoying this too because this is his field of study is these icy bodies out of the far reaches of the solar system and we'll learn a lot from that uh that uh spaceship with the 12 megahertz processor you know for the last month every picture it's taken even as it's been approaching pluto has been the best picture ever taken of pluto so um yeah it's fun um just a quick question about that that uh what's it called the craft new horizons yeah so after it goes past pluto is it gonna be looking for anything else like is it just carrying on so uh finish it will look like fuel whatever the well it will it's got a radioactive it has some it has some propellant has a radioactive power source. So what they plan on doing after they pass Pluto and they know that the ship is okay, what they're going to do is they've got, I'm not sure if they picked, they've got a couple different objects that they could head for.

So they want to head for another known icy object out there in what's called the Kuiper Belt. And fly by it too. And so that, I think that's their, their goal is to fly by another one of these kinds of objects, smaller than Pluto, but not very well known, you know,

because they're far out. It's, we don't know a lot about these objects. And the idea is that this is the stuff that's left over from the formation of the solar system. So you can learn a lot about the solar system and about the formation of the planets and the solar system from this kind of junk that's just kind of floating around in the far reaches of the solar system. And then after that, after they do whatever corrections

they do to try and go past one of those objects, then it just keeps going. Just like, I think Voyager 2 is the furthest away of any object that is man-made and is now out beyond the influence of the sun. But it just keeps going. And if it's anything like, I haven't read this, but I assume if it's anything like Voyager, they will try to keep it alive as long as they can and try to do some basic science. Like Voyager, its whole goal was to look at planets. But it's actually been really useful scientifically using some of its instruments and its draining power source to radio back faintly information about like what it's measuring as it goes further and further away from the sun. They've been able to sort of like learn how far does the sun's influence go. So, you know, I'm hoping that they'll do something similar with that because this is the fastest object that we've ever shot out of the solar system. So at some point, New Horizons will

be the furthest away of any man-made object. That's really interesting to me, right? Because how much do we really know past Pluto? Like, I assume not a lot. Well, I mean, this stuff is smaller and it's very hard to see from Earth, even with the Hubble Space Telescope. It's hard to see and it's easier to see. I mean, this is not a floating, you know, flying telescope where it can be like the Hubble Space Telescope but far away. Its cameras are more limited than that, but it is out there, right? So there's an opportunity for it to notice things about that region of space that we have to look at from very far away. Like I said, 4 billion miles away. And this is why,

I mean, why did Eris get discovered 10 years ago or less than that? Five years ago, seven years ago? Not a long time ago. Well, no, actually, I think it was exactly 10 years ago. It got discovered then because it took that long for us to have good enough ground-based and space-based telescopes and computers to take these pictures of the sky and notice that, oh, that little dot of light moved a little bit. It's very hard to see from here. So this has been one of those kind of cutting edges of astronomy because it's required the technology that we have today in order to find this stuff. Like Mike Brown writes about how he took all of these images

that were taken by the telescopes in Hawaii and ran them through a computer. And it was like literally the computer is looking at millions of images, trying to find moving objects. And most of them are going to be like airplanes or satellites, but that what they're trying to do is identify, are there any objects out there big enough for us to find? And the answer, the answer was actually his answer about a year ago was no, we've, it seems like we probably got them all that we're capable of seeing right now. Well, there you go. Frontiers. Frontiers of science.

It's kind of fun. And the tech. I like the tech angle. I mean, imagine we get frustrated by our computers here on Earth, and then they have to deal with this computer that is four and a half hours away by radio and on a slow connection running a slow processor and that's all they've got they got to make it work it's crazy stuff man i'm happy that you took the time to talk about this because i had no idea about any of this really i mean i know that something was happening right

but past that i didn't know anything so let's should we switch off and talk about something that's just as nerdy but in a totally different direction? Yes. Comic-Con. Comic-Con. So there's been a bunch of stuff, as there is every year. Yeah. Disney's showing basically was Star Wars this year, no real Marvel stuff. Right.

And DC attempted to display their Expander universe, as did Fox. Yes. All superhero all the time yeah and i wanted to talk about a couple of the trailers specifically and then we could talk about whatever else you wanted to as well so first off i want to talk about the dawn of justice trailer so this is batman superman yep so this one came out this is like a general frustration of mine is why don't they put the trailers all out like after they show well i think they didn't they with batman versus superman they did batman and superman did with the star wars but like i want to watch the deadpool trailer but it's like apparently it's gonna be in the next it's gonna be three weeks away well they they

they haven't learned the lesson that that uh the people who did the star wars i i this year i felt like some um some companies really got it. There was some stuff that was posted as soon as it was shown and the panels were posted and they're like we're just going to put it out there. Rather than have it be some sort of shaky cam version of this thing we're just going to put it out there. And then other companies

haven't learned the lesson yet. I think it'll happen. I think eventually everybody will realize first you show it at Comic Con and then you show it to the whole world immediately after you don't say no no no you see it see it in three weeks until then just watch this uh handheld you know cell phone camera version of it that's stupid so i want to let's talk about the one of justice so basically the conceit of the trailer is uh people everybody's upset at superman for what he did to metropolis yeah at the end of man of steel yeah so like let's try and trying to take the the gigantic mistake of the previous movie and make it a plot point that's clever

so you know you have spoken about this uh at length on episode 146 of the incomparable which i'll put in today's show notes which i think that people should listen to in case they haven't already um that's in there so that's where to discuss man of steel uh and i agreed with everybody on the panel basically that it was too much destruction too many people killed um potentially and it was all ridiculous and i have other long-running problems with superman as a character anyway and that don't work in 2015 like the fact that the disguise wouldn't work because everyone was seeing pictures of his face like it's just the clock can't disguise is pointless now the short version the short version is that the

man of steel felt a little too cavalier with the destruction of city blocks and that Superman didn't appear to really care or attempt to move the destruction elsewhere. And that that seemed very unheroic. And plus the fight isn't very interesting because they're both invulnerable. So they're destroying buildings, but they don't actually hurt each other to speak of because they're super powerful all-powerful beings so in this in this trailer we see batman we see bruce wayne um witnessing this destruction and apparently the idea is that there are a lot of people on on earth who feel like feel like i do about the end of steel and have a problem with superman and uh and and you know batman's not gonna i guess not gonna take it anymore or something before we talk about any

more of the details of the trailer because i did want to talk about a few more i have a question for you do you think that the city-wide destruction in man of Steel was portrayed the way it was for this movie to exist and have a plot? Or do you think it is a reaction after the fact? I think it's a reaction after the fact. I've heard from some fans who basically are trying to say, see, the reason it happens that way in Man of Steel is so they could do this movie. Well, I think I've seen some statements from the filmmakers to the contrary, but I'll just say if they ended that movie the way they did because they thought this is going to make a great sequel, they are really

stupid because the last thing you need to do is wreck your movie and make people hate it because you've got a really great sequel idea. Because first off you need to make a good movie or there won't be a sequel and you, or you won't be asked to make it. So I don't, I don't believe that this is all part of some great plan that people would, that, that, that you would undermine Superman to this degree. So I think it's a reaction. I think that that actually fed into this as people were,

people were kind of appalled by the ending of the movie. And they said, oh, that's actually an interesting way into this story to have people like Lex Luthor and Batman, as it it wrecked, you know, it wrecked the movie for me. So it's like, hey, we're going to make you really angry at this movie so we can make another movie. Okay. My feeling would be if that was going to be what they did, then they should have had a hint to Batman at the end of the movie. Like if that was the decision that they made, then Bruce Wayne should have been at the end of the movie.

There are no consequences at the end of the movie. There were no consequences at the end of the movie. At the end of the movie of Man of Steel, if it was very clear that this fight that happened was horrible and that Superman was kind of morally, I don't know, just questionable at this point, that people were wondering that. I think that would have been an interesting way to end it, but boy, that would be an even more dark way to end that movie.

So I don't know. It's a complicated topic. We talked about it a lot on that Incomparable episode. So, you know, you can go there for it. My question with this movie is, I find it problematic when I watch the trailer that I agree with Batman and Lex Luthor about Superman. Like, I agree with them that he's a menace who could destroy everything and he's shown no evidence that he is on our side and that he cares about human life. And the fact that in the trailer his mother mother says, you don't own these, you don't owe these people anything. I'm like, oh man. And I also know it's Superman.

Why is that bad though? Like you've got to pick a side. So maybe they're setting it up, especially in this trailer to make you pick Batman's side. Yeah, well, why it's bad is that Superman is incredibly valuable. And so in the end,

they're going to learn that it's Lex Luthor who's the true enemy and they're going to form the Justice League with Wonder Woman and Aquaman and everybody's going to be happy. And my question is, can this movie do enough to redeem that character after the disaster that I feel was the end of Man of Steel? And that would be quite impressive if it does that. I'll put it that way. I would be very impressed if in the end, this was about bringing Superman low and having him realize the error of his ways and that he now needs to start acting like a true hero and care for people. And if that's his character arc, that would be a bold move for a character that is generally

portrayed as being just a Mr. Friendly, sunshine, happy superhero guy. But they could do it. That would be fascinating if Batman teaches Superman what it means to actually be a hero. I have my suspicions that that's not going to be how it goes. So I have a couple of other questions about this trailer, and I'm hoping you might be able to help clean up for me. The first is, is this Batman's origin story? It seems not, but it seems like they're making some

weird crosses because you know he picks up the paper and it's like wayne family dies because one of the buildings that they destroy is a wayne building um yeah but but there seems like to be cause to the fact that this is Batman returning to action. Right. I think that's what it is. I think this is, I think that Batman has already existed, but that this is the impetus for either Batman to return or for him to change his approach from what he was doing before and think more globally, maybe beyond just being a protector of Gotham or something like that. But I agree, you can almost look at it like this is the origin of Batman. He becomes Batman because he's so outraged. I don't think the timeline works for that. I don't think it makes any sense that he

would be a new... Ben Affleck would decide to be a new Batman at this point. So it's got to be more complicated than that. But I think the trailer sort of simplifies it to make you feel like, no, no, no, this is when we meet batman it's important that you meet him now yeah because there are some parts of the trailer which show that batman had already existed like you know when he and you've you've i'm sure you've seen the trailer i don't know how much you studied it or looked up about it because i've been a bit fascinated by it you know when he looks at that suit and it's got the yellow spray paint on it in the trailer i don't know if you remember it that is robin's suit and it's yeah it's what uh the joker writes on uh is it is it jason todd uh you you're beyond my i i only uh occasionally

i only go to the church of Batman for Easter. Okay. So one of the Robins was caught by Batman. Yeah. It was caught by the Joker. By the Joker. Yeah. And so basically the suit is up in this case and it's got the Joker's writing on it. And it's clearly the Robin suit. So he's a messed up, you know, maybe retired or semi-retired Batman who comes back into action because of all the crap that has gone on with

Superman and Zod destroying cities and stuff. Yep. There's also one other point which is weird. I don't know if you've got an answer, but I wanted to mention it because it seems really weird to me. There's like, Batman is getting beaten up by a bunch of people. Those people have Superman's logos on their arms like they're Superman's army, which again, I don't know what that means. There's so many questions. So my guess is that they're notman's army which i again i don't know what that means like there's so many questions so my my guess is that they're not going to portray their most important piece of intellectual property as a fascist and that it's going to be that superman's name and likeness and logo are used unauthorized use by people who fancy themselves vigilantes in the name. That's my guess about what that means is that,

is that the meaning of Superman kind of is out of Superman's control and starts to represent a whole bunch of things that he, he doesn't want it to. And then my guess based on the first half of Man of Steel, which I actually liked a lot is that this, this allows Henry Cavill to be sort of mopey disaffected um clark kent which i actually really like the fact that he is he is alien like literally alienated from humanity he's not human and that after all of these bad experiences maybe he's like i don't even want to

be involved and then his story arc maybe is that he realizes he can't not be involved because he's made such an imprint on society that if he doesn't take control of it other people will use his name to do things he doesn't agree with that that that's what i read i read into the you know fighters with the superman logo is that they're not authorized those are not authorized merchandise jackets is what i'm saying interesting i'm excited about this movie, having seen this trailer. I like the idea of angry Batman, like really angry Batman, coming out of retirement to punch Superman in the face.

I kind of like that because I've never really liked Superman, Jason. No, I agree. I agree. I've never really liked Superman. I mean, Superman's fine. He's just boring. Batman is much more interesting. Superman is Jason. No, I agree. I agree. I've never really liked Superman. I mean, Superman's fine. He's just, he's boring. Batman is much more interesting. Superman is great. He's apple pie and la la la.

But I agree with you. I didn't like the teaser trailer. I thought it was more of the same from Zack Snyder. And I was just like writing it off. Like, this is a total disaster. I looked at this one and said, you know what? I'm not inclined to go see it, but I'm more interested in it than i was before i saw the trailer because of that at least hint that maybe they will they will you know may just to back up

and think about the the corporate politics here superman's always been perceived as number one but i gotta say i think batman is number one batman is more liked and more relevant in modern movies and in modern culture than Superman is. Superman's sort of like grandpa's superhero and Batman is the superhero of the last 20 years, certainly from DC. And so that would be really interesting if this whole movie is about Batman

punching Superman in the face and saying, you screwed up and you need to hear what we have to say about this. That would be really interesting. Like I said, I would love to see a movie where Superman is brought low and realizes that he's really blown it and that he needs to make amends and that that's where the Justice League comes from. That would be interesting. I'm not sure I've got any confidence in Zack Snyder to pull that off, but that would be a really interesting story story and that would make superman way more interesting and also i think wouldn't that be interesting for batman to like have him

be the guy who is the adult supervision who's like you know shape up sunny that would be cool yeah and just to be like because it's a retired batman it's like let me teach you yeah the things that you need to know if you're going to try and do this yeah and then also wonder woman is in it because reasons um thank you joe steel for pointing that out she wonder woman and apparently aquaman um jason momoa who you might remember as uh as cal drogo from game of thrones is i believe he's aquaman i think so he may show up at some point too makes sense to have them all in it i think just to solidify the Justice League movie this this this is the movie where DC this is like their Iron Man this is the movie where they say we we are now a shared universe

as of this movie it turns out that yes Man of Steel was part of it but like this is the moment where they're like here's our plan we're gonna have a lot of movies this is where it starts you start to meet these characters so you know i wish them luck i mean i i wish them luck i i think i think uh man of steel is a terrible foundation to build on but um they can you can always you know you're only as successful as your latest movie right so if batman versus superman um does the trick then then they'll be off and running. My hope will be that they realize that the foundation is this movie. Then that's why they're putting everyone in it. They want this one to be the remembered one. The last thing that I wanted to mention on this, Jason, was what do you think about the idea of a Ben Affleck-directed solo Batman movie?

That was the rumor. I have no opposition to that. I think Ben Affleck is actually a talented guy. And I think that would be an interesting idea too. That might be DC's actual Iron Man, right? Their actual like, let's take somebody who's got a little bit more of a vision for this character and have them do a movie. I would love to see that. I would love to see a different take on Batman that is not Christopher Nolan's Batman that we've seen for the last 10 years. Yeah. I'm a big fan of Ben Affleck, especially if he's directing work. So I'm very excited about that personally. What did you think of the Star Wars stuff? It wasn't a trailer, but just a reel of things. Yeah. It was like to get the fans hyped up i thought it was good for that i i think um you know it wasn't a trailer we had a bunch of people ask is the incomparable going to do five hours about this video and the answer we're not going to do

anything about it because it's not a trailer it's it's a it's like a behind the scenes reel it's like a dvd extra kind of thing and i think it's interesting it gave away some some new character names and some uh settings and some other hints about what we're going to see in the new Star Wars movie. And I thought that was a perfectly appropriate thing to drop at Comic-Con. I'll also point out, and some people were pointing this out last week, that Disney's got a lot of events. They had the Star Wars, the big Star Wars event in Orange County earlier this year, and then they've got the big Disney Expo that they do. So Disney's got kind of some of its own events where it wants to make news. So I feel like maybe this was a good earlier this year and then they've got the big disney expo that they do um so disney's got kind

of some of its own events where it wants to make news so i feel like maybe this was a good use of comic-con it's not dropping the full trailer but it's still doing something for the fans get keeping the hype building they had they had uh um the three principal actors from the original trilogy on stage at comic-con which was that's a big deal that it wasn't just mark hamill and carrie fisher but harrison ford was there too i'm not sure he's made public appearances since he got in his plane crash on that golf course so um so i i forgot about that yeah and he doesn't like uh you know he's rumored to be very you know testy about you know appearing with fans and star wars stuff and all that but he was there too so and he seemed to have fun.

Like, yeah. So, so I think, I think it was good, but in terms of, um, judging how the movie's going to be, it didn't,

didn't really tell us anything. It was just sort of like little tidbits for the fans, which is fine. That's a great use of comic-con. Um, I, I, a couple of things that I liked from the,

the real, um, they were talking about practical effects a lot, and they showed some of that, and they showed some models, which look really cool. And it's nice to see that sort of stuff there, right? Because it shows that JJ is embracing what people want, even whether he wants it or not, which I'm sure he does.

But he's trying to give people what they want. He wants it too. I think the way to phrase it is, JJ Abrams is embracing what the fans of the original trilogy want, what they want yeah no he wants he wants to do he i think the way to phrase it is jj abrams is embracing the what the what the fans of the original trilogy wants which is fine because he's one of them yeah right so he gets it yeah and also simon pegg which is just funny that he's in it uh he's in an alien costume i really hope i really hope that you just never would know it's him and he's just because he wants to i assume that's what it is yeah i i absolutely assume that's what it is um and i would

expect that he would probably be the first in a long line of people that are doing something like that in this movie you know that no jj so i think that's really cool and i liked it um was there anything else uh from comic-con specifically that you wanted to mention that no I mean your eye I think I think it's worth mentioning you know the other superhero stuff there's another DC movie they had the Suicide Squad on stage I saw like a shaky cam over the shoulder yeah version of that and I thought it looked pretty cool yeah so we'll see when the real official version comes out and then fox had their uh marvel wasn't there but fox had their stuff

that they own of marvel's there so they were talking about the new x-men movie which follows on uh from days of future past so we still haven't seen that yet it's pretty good um it's you know it's well it's pretty good for an x-men movie oh burn but that's that's sort of how i i take it it's a fun combination of the old cast and the new cast um and this apocalypse i think is similarly kind of a mix-up of old and new um and then uh they also showed some stuff from their deadpool movie which i have zero interest in because i don't like deadpool but uh it's what's interesting about it is it's an R-rated movie, so it's going to be super violent and raunchy and stuff,

which I think, you know what? I think that's interesting to do a superhero movie that breaks some of the rules that have been established for superhero movies. Suicide Squad also looks very risky. Yeah, it does. I suspect it will be right on the edge of PG-13 and not verge over into R, whereas Deadpool... I don't know.

Like, just the trailer that I'd seen, it looked a little much. I would be surprised. I mean, I don't know what the classifications are, but it looked way further than I've seen any other superhero movie go. I'm sure they're going push it but i i'm skeptical but we'll we'll see but deadpool they're just going for the r so it's going to be gory and

uh and uh profane and like they're gonna they're gonna amp it up all the way um there were some teases of the the dc tv stuff which i think is that's the dc comic stuff that i really love is the flash and arrow and they've got a new spinoff coming and they're also doing a supergirl show the same producers um there was some zombie news there's a walking dead spinoff called fear the walking dead which is sort of the walking dead which i read as a comic too um it's clever in how it starts out because especially since they didn't have the budget it starts out as the guy wakes up rick wakes up in the hospital he gets shot and he's in a coma and then he wakes up and there's nobody around and the apocalypse has already happened.

So now that The Walking Dead is like one of the most successful shows on TV, not just cable TV, on television in total, they have the budget to do Fear of the Walking Dead, which is set in LA and tells the story of the zombie apocalypse hitting LA, which is, um,

that's, that's a very interesting thing. That's a very interesting choice. Um, I'm more interested in this than the current walking dead because I read the comic and walking to a comic, in my opinion is miles better than the TV show. I agree with you.

I agree with you. I think the TV show is fine, but the comic is, is, is great. I think this will be interesting. It's. I think the TV show is fine, but the comic is, is, is great. I think this will be interesting. It's like the lessons learned from doing the other show and the fact that they can wind the clock back and,

and tell that, which is, you know, the, the fun story as a zombie, you know, telling a zombie story of how, how civilization crumbles and seeing it all.

Um, and, uh, you know, it, that, that should be, that should be interesting.

And then the other zombie show that was, uh,-Con is Ash vs. Evil Dead, which is coming to stars, I think. And you talk about your R-rated movies. This is the R-rated TV show, essentially. But it's a TV show sequel to the Evil Dead movies starring Bruce Campbell. So if you like your gory zombie movies in the style of the Sam Raimi, Bruce Campbell, Evil Dead, Army of Darkness kind of films, there's going to be a show of it. That looked pretty funny and super violent and gory, but also really funny, which is, I think, what you would expect from that. The only other thing I wanted to mention is two of my favorite comic books from my childhood, The Micronauts and ROM, were teased from IDW Publishing. And I had long conversations with comic book people on Twitter about this because those are toys that became comics. And the challenge there is that the toy intellectual property and the

comic book storylines are owned by different people. So the things that we remember nostalgically from those properties are problematic because Marvel Comics owns, like with the Micronauts, the toys and the look of the toys are owned by the toy company, which can, you know, and the holding company for intellectual property. So they can be licensed. But all of the other stuff that went into that universe that was created just for the comic book is still owned by Marvel. And so this happened once before where they tried to do a new Micronauts comic book. But all they could use were the images of the toys. And so they had to create new characters and new settings.

And it was weird and not really ideal because it kind of blows off the nostalgia factor. You can't even start from a nostalgic place and then tell new stories because you don't own half of the nostalgia. And the ROM Space Knight thing is even worse because that was literally just a plastic toy of a robot called ROM Space Knight. And that was from Mattel or Parker Brothers. And he had three different guns that he could use. He had like a scanner and a neutralizer and something else and a translator. Everything else that people remember because the toy came and went in a year, but the comic lasted for like five or six years.

Everything everybody is fond of that character comes from the comics. So if IDW Publishing only has the rights to the toy, they can create a comic based on that toy, but they can't use any of the other stuff that anybody that everybody remembers the supporting cast the villain it's just it the the human version of the robot guy can't not owned by them so uh moisess chiyan tells me to be patient and it's possible that idw is actually also trying to license stuff from marvel comics they've worked with them on stuff in the past that there might actually be more to this story that there, that IDW as a publisher says,

look, if Marvel doesn't want to buy this stuff, maybe we'll buy it and we'll license stuff from Marvel and then we'll put it together. But it's just a funny, this is one of those examples of a beloved thing from my childhood that is out of print and can't be brought back into print because the rights have kind of torn

apart and expired. So, um, but there was a tease and all it said was 2016 Micronauts ROM, uh, IDW publishing. So we'll see whether they dash my hopes. Um, I, I hope Marvel would pick up the license because then they own everything and they could, they could use those old comics as a starting point, but you know, we'll, we'll see'll see i'm gonna listen to moisess and remain open-minded about it and uh yeah and all the doctor who people were in san diego too which i am always amused to see english people running around san diego because there's a lot of ah the sun the sun but uh they they just announced the air date and showed a little trailer for the new season of doctor who but i just i do enjoy that because a lot of times you get these you get these British actors who have never been to something on the scale of Comic-Con.

And they're kind of amazed that, you know, how is it that all these thousands of Americans are excited about our TV show? Because when they're in Cardiff making Doctor Who, you know, there are some fans around. But, you know, it's nothing like the scale of going to Comic-Con. So I always, I enjoy that more than the actual panels. Sometimes it's just these people who have never been exposed to how insane, um, Comic-Con is.

And, and, and that's you, that's usually the British actors. Uh, also Sherlock. Yeah. They did have a teaser trailer for the Christmas special.

Which is not part of the modern Sherlock, but it's the same actors, but they're in the, you know, whatever it is, Victorian, the classic Sherlock Holmes era for the Christmas special. I have unpopular things to say about that trailer, which is it looked to me like a Saturday Night Live sketch. And I thought it was painful. And I fear that it will be a terrible thing. I couldn't disagree with you more on that one. That's fine. That's fine. It just hit me wrong. It hit me as a whole series of jokes that are like, see, we're back in the past now.

And it just didn't hit me right at all. But I will, you know, I'll watch didn't i it didn't hit me right at all so but i i will you know i'll watch it i like sherlock yeah i'm sad that you didn't like it yeah it's okay it's okay but i didn't i thought it was too much i thought i i worry that sherlock is is is getting a little too smug with its success. And that trailer didn't convince me otherwise. But again, I like the show so much that I'm going to watch it regardless, and I hope it's good. Cool. Should we just do a couple of Ask Upgrades before we sign off today? Let's do it. Jason, could you please tell me who is bringing Ask Upgrade to us this week? Ask Upgrade, Mike.

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and he asks me this question i think martin is very angry uh if zane low is so great how come he talks over the records or tracks style that Zayn implements I quite like it I think I mentioned this last week I like that style he doesn't ruin the songs but every now and then he'll mention something if he's excited about a song

or he wants you to listen to a specific part and that reminds me of what it's like to listen to music with a friend when you're listening to something like oh listen to this bit this is really good that's kind of what Zayn Lowe reminds me of what it's like to listen to music with a friend when you're listening to something like, oh, listen to this bit, this is really good. That's kind of what Zane Lowe reminds me of, and it is that infectious excitement that I like about him. And I think when he's talking about the Peel mold,

he's talking about John Peel and how great John Peel was at discovering music, which Zane Lowe still is. His presenting style is different. And as I said last week i think i really or maybe it was even last week or week before i really love zane's style of just being super pumped up and excited all the time because it makes me excited about the music he's excited about so i don't think that it doesn't mean he's great i think it just means he has a a different style that he implements and if you don't like it, that's fine. Just listen to the playlists.

So when I mentioned this last week and I mentioned it at the beginning of this show too, when I say that listening to a Beats 1 show is an entertainment program and it's not just sort of you're playing a song and then playing another song, this is part of what I mean, which is if you're there to appreciate the music

and the DJs are supposed to get out of the way, this is not for you. You should just listen to the playlists because they play those songs and there are no DJs. And that's sort of how I came to terms with this because I've never liked it when DJs talk over songs. It's like, what's it about? You are the song. And the answer is it's about them. That is the answer. And if it's never about them to you and it's about the song, don't listen to this because that's not what it is.

Because we were talking about last week about, oh, who's the DJ in London? Julie. Julie Adenuga. Adenuga. When we listened to her show last week, that was, you know, the music was coming and going and she was talking. And it was like you can either say she is getting in the way of the music or you can say this is this is about experiencing this entertainment with with her as our guide. And she's talking to us throughout it. And if you if you are into that, then this is the show for you. But again, if you want

them out of the way, that's not the purpose here. It's just not the purpose of those kinds of shows. I don't love DJs talking over music. That comes from my history as being one of those people, like John Syracuse has said, one of those people who press record on the radio to get a version of the song that you liked when it got played on the radio back when I was a kid. But once I came to accept that this is just not what these shows are, then I kind of made my peace with it. It's like, I'm not here for the unbroken, pristine version of these songs. I'm here for this experience with this person. Yeah. songs i'm here for this experience with this person yeah adam asked um was about to take a trip home from a nearby city and apple music recommended a playlist called take a chill drive is that a coincidence uh i'm gonna say yeah however yesterday uh when i start i was about

to start cooking and i was given two different playlists with cooking themes. I mean, I'm assuming it's just guessing time of day, right? And it's just throwing up stuff that it thinks might be a thing. But I found it very peculiar that it seems to be Apple Music knows what I'm doing and is suggesting music specifically. But hey, very interesting.

I mean, I don't know. All right. music specifically but hey very interesting i mean i don't know but all right i have a um i i found they had a uh what family game night playlist that was surfaced for me that i saved because we do have a family game night and i thought that was really fun that they had a little playlist for for uh family for family game night so i saved it and we will when we next have uh family game night we will uh we'll play that playlist yep it's awesome and uh lastly uh at c gomez on twitter what is the consensus of securing individual apps with touch id if your phone itself locks using it at a reasonable interval for some reason i've read this was like oh yeah that is weird like like just reason, I read this and was like, oh yeah, that is weird. Just immediately when I heard it, I was like, that is strange.

I have a bunch of apps and I choose to turn on Touch ID, but I have my phone locked after two minutes, so it's not a crazy amount of time. However, there are a couple of apps that I have on my phone that if I gave somebody my phone to look at, I wouldn't want them opening. And those are the ones, like, you know, it seems to be that there is an overlap between those kinds of apps

and the apps that also have Touch ID or password support. Like, we use FreshBooks. I don't want people going in there. Day one, I don't want people going in there, you know, et cetera. One password. Yeah, being the biggest one, I don't want people going in there. So there is an element of it, but it is funny that like,

you know, you have whole phone locks, but yet you still have individual locks with the same password, effectively your thumbprint in different apps. It was just an interesting thing that when I read it, I was like, I've never considered that before. But there's a special class of apps that, right? I think all apps expect that you're going to decide whether you want to lock your phone or not.

And like, they don't need special security, most of them, because they know that you're just going to do a system level set of security settings, right? And then there are those apps that are like, you know, we need more security than that. We demand, we're not content with, if the phone's unlocked, you can get to this stuff. And they put a password in front of it. And then the nice thing is you can put Touch ID in front of it instead. And that makes it easier. But I think that's the rationale is that there's some stuff that, yeah, if you unlock a phone and show something to a friend that they're not going to take it and open up your passwords.

Or you can leave your phone unlocked and only those things will be locked yeah yeah it's just it's just an interesting it's an extra layer of security but as you say for the apps that do it they're the ones that you want it for really so yeah makes sense right so so that's it for this week's episode. If you want to find our show notes, you can go online and find them at relay.fm slash upgrade slash 45. Thanks again to our sponsors

this week, the great people at the New Mexico Tea Company, Squarespace, and stamps.com. If you want to find us online, you can find Jason at sixcolors.com and he is also at jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L on Twitter, and I am at at jsnell j-s-n-e-l-l on Twitter and I am at imyke i-m-y-k-e

and we'll be back next time thanks so much for listening say goodbye Jason Snell goodbye Jason Snell