Upgrade - 465: No Dark Modes, Only Dark Rooms

Episode Date: June 26, 2023

Developers are getting their hands on (simulated) visionOS for the first time, and we speculate about how spatial apps might work. And for the Summer of Fun, we gauge our excitement level for various Apple-related product rumors.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 465 today's show is brought to you by electric ladder nom nom and notion my name is mike hurley and i'm joined by jason snell hi jason snell hi mike hurley welcome back to the summer of fun My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason Snell. Hi, Mike Hurley. Welcome back to the Summer of Fun. Summer of Fun. Yeah, that's right. I have a Snell Talk question for you and it comes from Justin. And Justin wants to know, Jason, if you could have any animal pocket sized, what would it be? I don't like this question.

Okay. I don't like this question. Imagine though, you could could have in this scenario this is an animal that you would be able to carry around with you and just put on the desk whenever you like hmm you could look at the animal

and maybe play with the animal what I don't like about it is the potential for squishing I'm just worried that this poor little animal is going to get squashed because it's so little. You put it in your pocket and then you tap your pocket and the animal is broken bones and is dead. That's not good. That's quite a thing. I don't like it.

I'm going to say that's quite a thing to jump immediately to. No. Oh, the first thing I thought immediately was like, oh my God, I'm going to get a little lion little uh little lion and then i'm gonna bump it and it's gonna die here's what we're gonna do i'm gonna add a force field are you gonna give it a force i'm gonna say this animal while also pocket size is impervious to squishing okay all right so now now this is the scenario you could have any animal pocket size and it can't be squished okay Okay, if it can't be squished, I would... Okay, Mike, next problem is the poop. I don't want it in my pocket.

It's going to poop in my pocket. Jason, you have actual animals in your home that is going to make much more of a mess than this thing could. So I wouldn't worry about that either. Yeah, but I can't let the elephant outside. It's pocket size. It'll get taken by a bird. It will have a little box or something.

Even if it's got a force field, or it'll have a little box. Okay. All right. So I'll have a little pocket-sized elephant that lives on my desk and goes in a box. Okay, so it's an elephant. It's your choice?

Well, if it wasn't squishing, if the squishing force field wasn't there, I was actually going to say I think I would like to make an aquarium with a whale in it. Now that's an excellent one. Right? Like, I do a little saltwater make an aquarium with a whale in it now that's an excellent one right like i do a little saltwater aquarium and i get a whale yes and i have little like i don't know krill flakes that i put in it and it's like a whole aquarium but it's just got a it's

just got like a humpback whale in it yeah no that is a awesome superb choice which also solves the two problems anyway you can't squish it because it's in the aquarium yeah that's right it's a fish how much mess can it make it's not a fish well you know what i mean but it's in a fish it's in a fishbowl it's an aquarium yeah that's right so it's got it's got a constraint space even though it technically isn't well you feel that way but people feel a lot of things that are aren't right, uh, if I had to choose with a force field and I didn't go with the whale thing, I think, I think elephant,

or maybe, you know, maybe a hippo because hippos are adorable, but they're also incredibly dangerous, but a pocket sized hippo would just be so cute. And the hippo could have like a little, a little, not like an aquarium.

Cause it would have like a little terrain that it could live in where it could go in the water and then it could pop back out onto the beach. And I'd have a little hippo tank. I'm going to say elephant, I'm tempted, but I think I'm going to go with hippo. But again, I think maybe a whale tank would be the best of all. But those hippos are adorable. And if they couldn't destroy, they couldn't kill us because they'd be so tiny. That might be fun too.

That's my answer. I think I would go giraffe. I just think, I think a pocket-sized giraffe would be hilarious and very adorable. It would. You'd really need the force field for that neck though.

Yes. I mean, you know. It seems really dangerous otherwise. It always is. Thank you to Justin for that Snow Talk question. If you would like to write in with a question of any kind, maybe some summer-themed questions,

because we're in the summer of fun, go to upgradefeedback.com and send it in. We have some follow-up now. Oh, yes. Was this some secret follow-up? Was this some anonymous follow-up? You gave me this follow-up. It is. I'm going to make some secret follow-up? Was this some anonymous follow-up? You gave me this follow-up. It is, I'm going to make it anonymous follow-up.

Okay. From a friend of the show. Okay. He knows who he is. Or they know who they are. Let's anonymize it even further. Well, it's too late. It's fine.

I don't want to confuse him. He's like, oh, is it me? Yeah, it's you um and separately separately a person who is not this person who is joe rosensteel wrote a piece about this at six colors if you're a member it's a member piece you could go read it a lot of detail about how they make 3d movies and 3d content in general since we're talking about that for the vision pro one of the things i said last week this is why it's follow-up is i said i don't know if they 3d convert a movie so most 3d movies are shot in 2d because it's way too unwieldy to shoot with two with stereo cameras so they they just convert it there's somebody who

um basically after the fact takes the base image and then sort of generates a second, uh, image for a stereo pair to put depth into it. And what I didn't know was do the VFX for that. Are they rendered in 3d or are they rendered in 2d like the rest of the movie? And then somebody else somewhere else turns the VFX into 3D. Because theoretically, a lot of VFX, not all of them, but a lot of VFX are done in 3D. They're

in a 3D system. I know Pixar does this. And again, the same person I asked about this, they said Pixar does it, but it's not cheap. Because you have to you have to qualify every shot in stereo after you've done it in in 2d in mono and it can be a lot of extra work so the answer for the visual effects question is that mostly they're done in 2d and then 3d converted with the rest of the film however there are a couple exceptions here um Since these are all computer files for the visual effects, usually the visual effects houses can send their like, if you think about like Photoshop or something like layered files that have all the like details of the different layers to the 3D converter. So they've got a leg up. They don't, they're not working like a normal 2D shot. so they've got a leg up.

They're not working. Like a normal 2D shot, the way to think about it is the parallax effect. Like if I want to have that second shot, I have to create background because the background slightly shifts behind the people in the foreground and you have to invent it. Well, the advantage of giving a layered shot

is that those layers are floating on. It's just easier to do. So in some cases they'll sell, they have to do the conversion, but they will send the files basically so that they have an easier job of it. Whereas a standard 2D film image is just a piece of film.

It's just a video file. It's just flat. The VFX houses can send the layered stuff in. That's good. And then secondarily, in some cases, the production can ask for shots to be done for the vfx shots to be done natively in stereo and then the vfx company will deliver stereo images it costs it's a significant fee if you want it to be in 3d so i think that a lot of times they decide

it's cheaper to just pay for a conversion rather than having the vfx house do it i assume that means the vfx house rates are substantially more than the 3d conversion rates um what joe steel's piece on six colors says is that it's it's literally 2x it's like literally you can't just do all the work and then a little add-on work it's it's basically no you have to do it twice you have to do the work twice because you have to do it for both eyes so that's the answer um a lot of the 3d movies that you see none of it was was made in 3d not a bit of it not even the vfx but in some cases maybe it was so the idea of you know how easy or cheap or not would it be for some movies to be converted to 3d for vision pro would be not really yeah well i mean the 3d movies so the 3d movies are are still released in theaters a lot of movies are made

in 3d so those are available for apple to use right yeah um the ones they're showing off of course is james cameron who does shoot things in 3D and it's all in 3D. And like those are going to be your best case scenarios. There are some other movies that were shot in 3D. It does happen from time to time. The one I keep mentioning, the best 3D experience I think I've ever had was Hugo, which is Martin Scorsese made a 3D movie, everybody. And it looks great, but mostly not. Mostly they're just conversions.

I think the bigger issue here is that there was that story about Apple doing the Godzilla thing in 3D. And this is the answer there is if Apple wants Apple TV plus content in 3D, they will most likely do it by paying for a 3D conversion because that's what most movie studios do. Right, because the stuff they're using for sports is not 3D, is it? Right, like those cameras that they would use for sports, they're not 3D cameras, they're VR cameras. Sports is 3D. It is. It is. I mean, it is is 3d it's a stereo view but like that's i think that's different because it's a fixed camera position that's using 3d uh as opposed to having a motion picture where you have thousands of shots and takes and camera movements and all sorts of stuff making a motion picture but but yeah 3d sports is it's it's real 3d those are stereo cameras doing the work there i mean that we saw in the vision pro demo they weren't 3d cameras they're vr cameras

no it's not 3d it's just it's just all around you like there was no sense of depth they're not 3d it felt like there were there was depth to me i felt like i was immersed no those vr cameras are just about, like, it's immersive because it's... Just about immersive, but not in 3D. All around you. Like, you can look around, but it's not 3D. Well, I think the goal would be that it would be immersive and

3D since we have, you know, the two eyes. And sports, definitely. ESPN used to have a 3D channel briefly when they were selling 3D TVs. So it can be done, and I TVs. So it can be done. And I would imagine that it would be done. Yeah. And the ideal would be both, right?

That would be incredible. You know, if you could look wherever you wanted and have that sense of like full perspective, that would be kind of amazing. Right. I don't even know how you do that. No. Right. Actually, now that you think about it

because you need to be able to cover in all directions but have a camera offset that's probably not well if it's 180 you know if it's full 360 no but if it's 180 you might be able to do it but uh yeah so anyway it's a that's an interesting question about how you get something to be immersive and 3d there is a note note in our document that says Jason found a bug. I did find a bug. I found a bug in iOS 16 that's still in iOS 17. This is part of a larger story that I think I might save for Upgrade Plus, but I wrote about it on my Macworld column this week.

So we'll put a Six Colors link in the show notes. If you're a Six Colors member, you can just read it on Six Colors. If you're not, you can read it on Macworld. About discovering that that lauren there are lots of features of the iphone that that have been added recently that lauren um didn't know existed so she's still doing it like it's you know 2015 and i think is a good proxy for the lack of discoverability of a lot of apple's features and how a lot of people, um, uh, you know, people who don't listen to podcasts or read articles about Apple don't know that these features exist. And it's a real challenge for Apple.

Um, but in, in the event, uh, while we were waiting for our lunch to be, um, to be served, uh, while we were up in Oregon, um, what I discovered amid this musing about discoverability was a bug, which is a hilarious bug that I think might speak to how Apple silos different groups. So I'm just going to say it here. I know we've got people who work at Apple who are listening. Maybe they can help this out because I just checked in iOS 17. It's still there. who are listening, maybe they can help this out because I just checked in iOS 17, it's still there. So one of the features of the lock screen in iOS 16 on the iPhone is photo shuffle,

which is great. And you can choose what to photo shuffle. You can photo shuffle nature. You can photo shuffle like animals or something and you can photo shuffle faces. So with a photo library that includes like names and favorites and all this stuff, when you choose, when you're given the chance to choose favorites or choose faces to shuffle through in the lock screen, the lock screen software, whatever it is, it's weird. It's like a mode. It's not really an app. It's a mode. What you want to do, obviously, is like pick

members of your family. Like Lauren always has a picture of our kids on her lock screen. And so I was going in there to say, oh, you can use PhotoShuffle now and just shuffle all pictures of our kids through your lock screen. And it'll be delightful because you'll be like, oh, look at that. That's from when they were little and all that. Except when you get to that point where you're like, I want to look at faces and pick the ones that I want, what's presented to you is one, not your favorites. Two, not your most commonly seen faces. And three, it's a handful of faces. It's like 10.

And you can't say, show me more. You can't say, go to the photos app and let me pick from there. So I tap, I'm like, oh, let me show you this amazing feature, photo shuffle. And I tap and it is the most random. So it's like kids who went to school with our kid and appear in a couple of pictures and just like random people that I see

at an Apple event or like, you know, again, almost nobody, even a relative and the relatives who were there were the relatives we don't see very often. And this is in a photo library that has thousands of photos of my son and my daughter and me and Lauren. And none of us were in there. I don't get it. I do not understand how that list should not be one. If you, if you favorite somebody, they should be in that list. Right. And I, in iOS 17,

I tried this and I got Lauren and Jamie and they were marked with little stars because they're favorites. But my, but Julian is a favorite too. And like Lauren's parents and my mom are favorites, but the only three faces offered to me in iOS 17 were Lauren and Jamie with little stars next to them saying they're favorites. And Dan Morin, which, you know, I love Dan, but he's not a favorite face because I reserve that for the very closest of family. And like, why?

Why is that the case? And that's and I on the iPad running iOS 17, I was only offered those three faces at all. I don't know. My experience is very different to yours. So when I go to like add a new home screen or whatever and I press Photoshop, it says people and I can select from all of my named faces. I can't, I see none of that.

Oh, that's weird. There's something odd going on with your either your photo library or are you using photo library shared photo library yes that's weird well I don't know what's happening to you I have heard from multiple I have heard from multiple people who say they've

had the same experience where what the face the faces that they're offered are not and the part that really got me was when I went, so Lauren's phone didn't have people tagged. So I went in and I tagged the people and I merged some faces together, which is not really fun, but I did it. And I,

you know, you can favorite people and all that. Like, you can do that stuff. And then I went back and there was no effect, which also suggests to me that either this is a bug at a higher level or it's not picking up the changes. Something's gotten broken there for sure. Something super weird.

And like I said, not only did this happen on my wife's iPhone 11, I i want to say uh 12 11 or 12 something like that but it also happened on an m2 ipad running ios 17 differently in that it showed me fewer faces but also did not show me favorites and i just don't get it i just don't i don't understand why you have this feature so anyway if uh if anybody is out there at apple i would like to know because i looked at that and i thought this is something that uh the photos team and the lock screen team aren't talking to each other it seems like to me like that there's something going on with the library right like you know like that there's something with maybe the library or your library size and that feature

just not working together because it's clearly not a device issue, right? Like, and it's clearly not a person issue. Yeah, James Thompson just reported in our chat, he's only seeing seven people

and not everybody who is favorited. And Emma said, I only have the option of picking one of my actual favorites and one totally random friend I don't have that many pictures of.

This is very weird. This was my response, which is fundamentally when you build this feature, it should be and also the limit of what's in there baffles me, right? It's like, why only 10 faces or whatever it is? Why only three faces on that iPad?

Now maybe there's some behind the scenes, well, we have to rescan all your photos on this device to make sure if they're the right shape or size or metadata to make them eligible. Maybe something is going on in the background like that. But you would think the priority would be favorites and then weighted by the most commonly appearing faces, right? That would be who you'd want to photo shuffle of.

And I don't know why it's limited and why it couldn't be anybody who has had a face detected, but certainly there would be a priority list. So I fell down this rabbit hole in the midst of discovering all sorts of other things about iPhone features that Lauren isn't using that I got a column out of, which is great. But this one, I just couldn't believe it.

So yeah, I guess I should file a feedback, right? Yes, you should. Anyway, weird, super weird, especially since it's an iOS 17 still. And so Jason did mention discoverability thing. We're going to talk about feature discoverability in Upgrade Plus today. If you haven't signed up before,

you can go to getupgradeplus.com. It's just $5 a month or $50 a year. Around this time of the year, we do have a lot of people who are resubscribing for their annual plans because we launched Upgrade Plus originally in June of 2020. Yeah. Thank you so much if you have continued your subscription. And always thank you if you continue your subscription. It means a lot to me and Jason that you support us this way. Thank you so much if you have continued your subscription. And always thank you if you continue your subscription. It means a lot to me and Jason that you support us this way. Thank you.

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done but today I have some meeting notes for a meeting that I've got coming up this week and I use the AI feature to just from these meeting notes create action items like a to-do list of action items and it was really good it did a really good job I love it it's just taken all of the notes that I already have it's picked out what looks like an action items and it was really good. It did a really good job. I love it. It's just taken all of the notes that I already have. It's picked out what looks like an action item and put them at the bottom of the document. Awesome. Do your most efficient work with Notion projects. You can try it for free today at notion.com slash upgrade. That is n-o-t-i-o-n dot com slash upgrade. Go there right now and you support the show. That is notion dot com slash upgrade. Our thanks to Notion for their support of

this show and RelayFM. Let's go back to the details. The details. A segment that everybody loves and loves the name. Yeah, I've got resounding feedback. Everybody loves it. Seriously, to me, there was one person

who was upset, but I'm going to keep saying it. And for that one person, welcome back to the details. That one person also decided to lecture us on how words are pronounced. There's only one way that a word can be pronounced.

So, yes, I have I'm sending bad vibes that person sorry everybody when you make something that's in audio people have opinions about how you pronounce things it's fine i have dealt with this for enough of my life now that i just water off a duck's you know i'll just i'll reply with a with a gif how about that yeah i usually just say something along the lines of i said it right so you know this is a name that i made up so whenever i say it's the way it's said because i call them betas but this is called the v-tails because as we said before the bay tails doesn't really make any sense it sounds like it sounds like a horse and the horses are the

province of rumor roundup okay and remember And remember, everyone, when I say details, you're supposed to say, woohoo, in your head. Right. So second, the developer betas are now available. So this came out last week. So we're on beta two. I think of basically everything. Typically, this means that the public beta is around the corner because it's based on this usually,

unless something disastrous has occurred i would probably say within the next week if not this week next week we may be on to develop a beta time uh it's usually july-ish right like if if not end of june start of july um and tends to be beta 2 so i would expect that to be the case here because everyone now that's running them is having a good time i've not heard of any real horror stories yet of things going wrong so we'll see about that yeah um we're going to talk about your beta strategy soon uh at the at the end of this topic once we go through some some stuff here because i didn't want to ask you yet about your experiences because that's the whole thing but there's a few things that have come out uh as part of beta 2 and more so apple has now added pass keys for iCloud

accounts so you will now be able to sign up and have your itune i guess your apple id i should say uh as a yeah i have a pass key instead of a password i'm really confused by this and I hope that it comes into focus because here's, here's what I want, right? I want to biometrically authenticate to log into my Apple ID for things like, like I have to go to like Apple Podcasts Connect. And they're like, oh, put in your Apple ID password and username. And, and then I'm going to send a six digit number to all your devices and put that in here. And that happens to me. I do that at the Apple store.

I would really like it. If when I'm logged in to an Apple device and it has my full authority, I would really like to never have to do that again. And I don't know whether that's using Apple's home grown authentication thing that seems to exist in some places. Or is that pass keys or is that going to be transitioned to pass keys? I don't know. I just every time I log in somewhere where Apple wants me to put my password into a web login, I think to myself, why am I doing this? Shouldn't I be able to

use Face ID or Touch ID to authenticate? So anyway, that's what I hope we will get to with this sort of thing. From reading Dan's article on Six Colors, you can, but if it's your Mac, you have to authenticate it in your iPhone. I know. Well, that's part of the problem here.

I've got Touch ID. that should be good enough but but i you know honestly this is like a thing where i expect we'll probably hopefully maybe get there but it's early like this is early yeah it's a good start it's a good start and the way that it was phrased i found fascinating which is apple has generated a passkey for you like for for every apple id like apple has done it like it's done you can't say no it's it's there you don't have to use it you don't have to get it you don't have to do anything but like they did it that's good though i like that i do too just do it and then i'll decide if i want to use it or not apple news plus is getting crossword puzzles. This is a surprise to me. True story.

So if you're an Apple News Plus subscriber, you'll now be able to use crossword puzzles that Apple have made. They've got more traditional crosswords, and they have some simple 5x5 crosswords. Mini puzzles. Mini puzzles. I expect this is a

we're going to do what the New York Times does. Yeah. That's what it is. They're adding value to the News Plus subscription by integrating games starting with crosswords.

I don't know where all the crossword content is coming from but i expect apple's doing it right like in the same way that they would do music you know they have like editors i would assume they have a crosswords editor and that person's current possible it also could be that they've got deals with um content providers who have their crosswords and that those crosswords will appear in news plus that is possible right like that like they have deals with other country but i don't know if i like do i get the new york times crossword puzzle in news plus if i if i log in as a new york times subscriber in news plus do i get it then well the answer to

those questions is no right now it's no okay. And also from the reporting that I've seen, there are no credits. You know, like Apple will sometimes credit people. Oh. So there's no like crossword provided by... It seems like this is Apple's crossword that they have made. It does have... It has a credit for the creator of the crossword, but no like source of the crossword. Very interesting.

I think... Credit for the creator of the crossword, but no source of the crossword. Very interesting. So if you're scratching your head about why this is, other than the fact that puzzles traditionally were part of the newspaper when newspapers were on paper, is that New York Times has had actually quite a lot of success with its puzzles, with its games group and that they view it as a a thing that increases people's um loyalty or i guess julie alexander would have me say decreases churn so i'll say that decreases churn basically you're thinking oh do i really want to keep the new york times and then you say to yourself oh but the puzzle they also offer it as a separate subscription which i got from my mom like my mom has been on Wordle since the beginning. She plays Wordle every day.

And when she moved to the New York Times, she then found Spelling Bee. And I was like, and I was watching a play and I was like, mom, I'm just going to buy you this subscription

and you can play as many of these as you want. And every single day she plays Spelling Bee and Wordle. And I'm like, great. Lauren does the spelling bee and the new york times crossword every day yeah it's true so there's power in this and i think that inside apple somebody said you know we should build uh this into news plus because

that makes news plus have that value where honestly it's one of those i look at news plus which i use news plus essentially to read wall Street Journal articles that I can't read on the internet. That's literally how I use News Plus. I look at this and I think this is like a good reason to have News Plus for $5 a month or more likely as part of the Apple One bundle. Now you get crosswords and little mini puzzles. I think it's really smart on Apple's part because it can't have cost't have cost i'm sure there you know there's development time and they got to get the puzzles but like this seems like a reasonable investment i'm not saying cheap but like a reasonable investment to stick a toe in the water of um creating more um stickiness

for news plus actually makes sense to me i would honestly say not just stickiness, just like a reason. Like a point. Yeah, right. I really don't like... I have a big problem with news services that deliver push notifications. I'll say that as a preface to what I'm about to say. Adina has a

notification strategy that I don't fully understand. You know, everybody has people... Every listener listening to this right now say like adina has a notification strategy that i don't fully understand we you know everybody has people every listener listening to this right now has a person in their life that they love endlessly who has a notification strategy i don't understand my wife is that person for me and she gets push notifications for apple news and the stuff that they give is the most i don't know who this is meant to be targeting it is like the biggest breadth of stuff she gets like from big sporting events to world. And I was like, why do you get these? And she's like, I like to know.

I just, but anyway, I don't understand who News Plus is supposed to be for. Like, I don't really get the whole point of this thing. And so if they're going to add things like this, it's like like this is actually potentially better for people because it's they're giving original content of their own which is of use rather than just like we bundled up a bunch of services that will work for us on the terms that we've set which most people don't like yeah well news plus is really amorphous it's

like you get access to stuff like magazines and the Wall Street Journal for some articles. And there's like some stuff bundled in, which is good, right? I don't pay for the Wall Street Journal, but I can read some of their articles in News Plus. That is a little bit of a value. It is a place that is crying out for other things

to add value to that service, whether you're buying it on its own or part of the bundle. It also gets people into the app, which I think is valuable. They put the sports notifications in there too. Yep. And that's another example of them trying to put other things of value in that service.

And so puzzles. Yeah. I think it makes complete sense. Even if is our puzzles news. Well, no, but like the New York times has shown that you can actually build a pretty successful business on puzzles and puzzles aren't cool. I know, right?

Like they're not video games and they're not even iPhone games. They're even if they're on the iPhone, they're like they're slow. They're for older people. And yet they're incredibly popular and older people have money to spend on stuff like this. So let me tell you, I think it's a smart idea. I would just, hey, look, listener, if you get push notifications from a news app of any kind,

just try turning them off for like two weeks and just see how it makes you feel. I think it's not good. We don't need our news beamed directly to us like we can go get it like i that would that's my recommendation but moving on from that uh joe herebar who makes timery uh posted on mastodon so two things that i like the look of coming from beta 2. Interactive widgets can start live activities. That is an awesome thing. So you use Timery, you start a timer on the new interactive widget, it doesn't

open Timery, but the live activity begins. And live activities can now have interactive buttons because they are built on the widget framework. So Timery has a button in the live activity currently, and you press that button and it opens the app and stops your timer. But with Beta 2, if I now press that button,

the timer stops and the live activity ends. Very cool. Very cool stuff. Oh, that's really good. Yeah. And LG is the first company to partner with apple to add airplay to their tvs in quote select hotels later this year all right this is something where like i'm happy they're gonna add this but like chromecast already exists like apple has lost this race like i will use this fine but

like i don't feel like i need it like i'm not going to start making hotel choices based on airplay this is a long game thing this is this is like them putting a tv app on uh an air or uh yeah an airplay on like um tv random tvs and roku boxes and things like that this is a long game i think the idea here is apple would like eventually all tv manufacturers to include this functionality in their hotel mode yeah so that in five years or 10 years every tv that's in a hotel has uh this hotel mode and the hotel mode i mean it's not like in some ways this is not super high-tech stuff it's it's really really like better integration of what's already there. Because you can already, these TVs already do have this stuff.

But I went to, this was like last year. I think I might have even told the story on the podcast. But like there were a bunch of Roku TVs. So like probably LG or, well, does LG do Roku? Maybe not. Roku TVs in this hotel we stay at a lot that's right across the street from the basketball arena at University of Oregon. So I'm not too far away from where the kids live. And they put on all these fancy new TVs and

they're Roku TVs. And I have a Roku TV at home. So I open it up and I think, well, can I airplay? Because I know they've got airplay. But it's this weird thing where they're like, they were all named the same thing. So you couldn't tell which one you were trying to connect to because they had just installed them. They were all pre-selected on the Wi-Fi. Jason, that's a fun game. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Just play it.

See if it's mine. Well, I couldn't get any of them. I decided to reset it. And what that did is it took it off the Wi-Fi network. And then at that point, I sort of just ran away and said, I feel bad for whoever gets this room after me. I've broken the TV now. Yeah, basically.

So what I'm saying is all that tech was there, but it was broken because of configuration. So what this system is, is it puts a, it puts a 2d barcode up, you scan it and it connects your device to the network and i believe like tells it what the device is that it's airplaying to and they make a connection and then it's like yes now you can just airplay to it that's a it's a nice thing it is not earth shattering because like i said i feel like a lot of this tech was probably already there but they're trying to get it together my guess is because they put started having devices with AirPlay in hotels and people are saying, what the hell? I can't AirPlay to this. This just happened in the Airbnb we stayed at last week. It had an AirPlay thing and I could not get it to work. I just couldn't get it to work. So I think that's the value in this and it's it's going to take years right i think they just want this and all the manufacturers will will put it in like they put in airplane it'll eventually be in there

it's in a hotel room mode so you probably won't even see it like they put in chromecast right by the tv yes exactly and chromecast is already there so it gets apple stuff in there uh so that people who are using apple devices can use airplanes to the chromecast and and that's good because chromecast has its limitations there are things i can only do on chromecast and there are things i can only do on airplay so um yeah anyway good my question check back in 10 years on this we'll make this part of the decadees maybe maybe airplay has changed i think airplay 2 did change like if i initiate an airplay say of a youtube video my phone's not involved in that anymore, right? Depends. Depends. If a device has AirPlay 2, I believe that's the idea is that it picks it up

and it does the streaming like Chromecast. If it doesn't have support for that, it will just take the video. This is what I ran into actually at that Airbnb over the weekend is I wanted to watch something from Netflix on my iPad and I chose the TV to, I think, cast to it. I think it was using Chromecast stuff. And what it did was open the Netflix app on the TV and try to go to that thing and then say, oh no, I'm not logged in. And then it gave up. I'm like, um, or you could just play the video that I'm trying to play, but it was trying to do a handoff because it had a Netflix app.

And I actually ran into the Netflix password sharing thing because these people actually were logged in, but they had a user for their Airbnb and Netflix was like, this doesn't appear to be, you know, you. Are you? And I'm like, oh no,

I just got them in trouble with Netflix. I walked away from that too and I just watched it on my iPad. I wonder if like hotels have like a specific configuration right that stops that because i've never hit that in a hotel but maybe in an abnb where it's someone's television depends on the tv implementation too anyway i i think this is i suspect that this is somebody at apple who's in charge of this stuff uh talking to hotel partners or having this experience with people in hotels and realizing that there are some things that they could do to upgrade the in-room version of this. So good for them. And then, yeah, and then wait until every TV is turned over in every hotel room.

So years. I had a thought. I don't know if there is an answer to this. I don't know if you know the answer to this, but I would be intrigued if somebody did know. So I was watching a video that David Sparks did for his Max Sparky Labs where he was showing off how good the new dictation is with the transformer model that Apple's using.

And it is way better. And it does things that I would want dictation to do more reliably, which is like punctuation and stuff like that, which I know the last one that they did added some of that but this looked much more uh successful actually transcribing what he was saying and it was making me wonder if apple is using this machine learning model for the new siri where you now can remove the hey come command the reason it made me think this is if they're using a more advanced machine learning model maybe it has a better uh accuracy rate of understanding

if it's actually being asked to command right right that like people phrase things differently and if i'm just if like if it thinks i've said that word but it's in the middle of a sentence that maybe it would just disregard it more and i'm i was just wondering if that's the case and maybe that's why they've been able to do this is they have more powerful machine learning for siri and if they do that could be really cool but i haven't heard them mention that but i do wonder why wouldn't they be using this speech detection model for siri if they're using it for like the keyboard and for dictation i don't know well maybe mike's uh army of secret informants could uh yeah inform us about this my guess is that for understanding what you're saying it's possible that they're using them the model

to better understand you know what you're saying like there's there's the act of taking speech and making a text but then interpreting the text it might be using that model but my guess about dropping the hay from the command is that they've actually done machine learning training to detect what a voice sounds like when it's giving a command and and maybe what they're saying like a um sentiment analysis kind of thing yeah like it's actually and with machine learning you could do this you could you could train it on lots of people trying to give a smart assistant a command and lots of people just having regular conversations. And theoretically, you could train it so that it is with much better confidence able to

differentiate between when you say the trigger word followed by stuff that it's a command versus when it's not a command. And I think you'd have to do that if you're going to shorten it like that, is you'd really need to detect that this is a command. They have to do this a little bit on the Apple Watch because there's the whole, you know, you raise it up and then you just speak a command. But a lot of times you're raising your arm just to raise your arm and you're not speaking at a command, you're just speaking. And it has to do some detection there to try and figure out if you're actually talking to it or not so that's my guess is that it's actually been trained to figure out what is

probably a a command for the assistant and what is just a you know a mistake that you know it's not it's not we're just mentioning the assistant's name we're not giving it a command over the weekend you told me that you have an aggressive beta strategy for this summer that were the words you used you're you're yeah you're over emphasizing aggressive here but yes i my plan is to my plan is to go on the beta sooner rather than later okay i um i always the truth is i always regret waiting too long. Okay. I always regret installing it on a second system or on an external drive in case of Mac OS and using it but not really using it because I'm not actually using it with my stuff, right? I'm not actually using it in my main context. I'm using it in a secondary context.

I think this year I am going to put my Mac on the beta, and I'm going to leave my Mac Studio on the beta, and I'm going to leave the MacBook Air not on the beta specifically. So basically, I'm going to have to embrace doing podcasts with the MacBook Air, for example. You've done that so many times, though. You always get there. Well, in fact, I did that one year. I had the Mac mini server in my office still at that point. And I bought a really long USB cable. And I was actually just recording on the Mac mini.

All my microphones were plugged into the Mac mini instead. So yeah, it can be done. If audio hijack isn't going to work with the beta, I can do that. But that gives me time with it. And likewise, the iPad. And I think the other one that's scary is the iPhone. But I think I'm just going to, I'm going to embrace it and put the iPhone on it and put the Apple watch on it and just see what happens. And if things break or are frustrating for the summer, that's just how it goes. But like, I, I, I really do want to live with this stuff

and, and I always shy away from it. And it's like, again, Oh, I'll just, I'll install it on a different phone or a different iPad or on a Mac I reboot into. But then, you know, you're not using it. You're a tourist in the beta. I've said this before. And it's just deeply unfulfilling to be a beta tourist because you're not living your life there. You need to live with the betas, not visit them, if that makes any sense. So I think I'm going i'm gonna do i again

didn't install beta 1 now we're on beta 2 we may be there at the point where it might even happen this week i i kind of like cut over to it and just suffer the consequences because i need to spend you know quality time with this stuff i agree with you which i think i am mentally committing to beta 3 where beta 3 is the earliest I've ever gone on. Yeah. That'll probably be the public beta too. Yes. Probably beta also will be beta 3, I think.

Oh, you think it will be 3? Okay, fair enough. I suspect it could be 4, but like July is what they said. So maybe if 3 goes well, they'll flip that one out. Otherwise, it'll be 4. Yeah, I was wondering if it'll be four um yeah i was wondering if it'd be two but i think you're right it's probably gonna be three um and i i think i'm gonna go then i think i'm gonna go then for the same reason i'm not gonna move any macs to it i

don't think it's not important for me realistically um to do that but i don't know maybe the widgets maybe i'll move my macbook air like i don't record on that machine so right see but i i'm gonna go with the iphone um i think i'm not gonna i would like to maybe not do my ipad because i find myself in a situation where i can't do any banking for the summer and that becomes complicated none of the banking apps all my banking apps just just locked me out because they think i've jailbroken my iphone which is just like a incredibly ridiculous thing like yeah it frustrates me greatly i have one uh before we leave the details behind i i a thought occurred to me having spent a couple weeks in new zealand i wonder how new zealanders or kiwis if they want to be called that pronounce beta because new

zealanders change the vowel so are they changing the vowel from beta to something else do they say beta but they mean beta or i i don't know right right like because there's we have different vowel sounds between uh how how james pronounces it and how we pronounce it, beta and beta. And New Zealanders change the vowels. I should be saying beta. You should be saying beta too, I know, but you don't. But I don't. Except in beetails.

So I would love to hear from a Kiwi about how they pronounce beta because, honestly, I can't determine how it is because it's like too many vowel changes there. So please, somebody from New Zealand, tell me how you pronounce beta. I'm going to ask you to contact Jason on Mastodon. I had the feeling there that I was going to say to send it in, but no, I don't. I feel like I'm going to end up with every person from New Zealand. At Zeppelin.Flights. There you go. On Mastodon Zealand. At Zeppelin.Flights. There you go. I'm Mastodon.

Jason, I was Zeppelin.Flights. This episode is brought to you by our friends over at Electric. When leading a small business, it's not all glamour. In fact, sometimes it's a matter of spending hours onboarding employees, which, of course, you're well equipped to do this. But maybe you don't have the time anymore i think at the point where you are onboarding lots of employees you probably don't have the time to do it anymore which is why you need the employees in the first place the team over electric knows

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for scheduling a meeting. Our thanks to Electric for their support of this show and RelayFM. So over the last week, the Vision Pro SDK was released. So this wasn't made available at WWDC. I had the thought, Jason, that maybe this was a purposeful thing so people would spend time with the other SDKs. I don't know that to be the case, but it came out so soon after that it doesn't really feel like a case of like, oh, it wasn't ready yet.

I don't know. I mean, it might be that, that there are like aspects of the release that would have required people to be brought into the circle of trust. And they decided not to do that until the product was ready to go and they had to rename everything

to Vision OS from XROS and all of that kind of stuff. That's a good point. Also, and we've talked about this since the announcement, right? The idea that Apple controlled what Vision OS is and what the Vision Pro is

like so tightly about like, what do we want to talk about? What do we not want to talk about about the experience? What do we want to show? What do we not want to show? And there's always more to be gleaned as we are now gleaning from the SDK. And so I think the other part of it was if you don't release the SDK, you control 100% of people's perception of the product for the first few weeks. And then you can release the SDK. So I think it's some combination, like it has the benefit of allowing them to completely control the flow of information on this product for a little while when it's at its most, where people are most attentive to it. And that there are probably like people involved in posting this stuff who were not in the loop and had to be

brought into the loop. So as you can imagine, imagine with this there's lots of details and i have compiled a few things that i thought were pretty interesting that i wanted to talk to you about so obviously we're along with the the uh are these s detail k's sdk detail no? We don't have a clever name for this one? I don't, no. Because I'm not expecting this to be... Interesting things in the SDK. Alright. Yes, I'm not expecting this to be a recurring segment throughout the summer. Okay. Unless Apple keep releasing SDKs that we don't know about. SDK tales!

Woohoo! If Apple continue to release other SDKs, I will make the commitment to make this a recurring segment and come up with a fun name for it. Okay, thank you. But until that time, no fun names. SDKs, I will make the commitment to make this a recurring segment and come up with a fun name for it. Until that time, no fun names. Summer of no fun names! Summer of fun names, just for

this segment. There's obviously tons of practical and technical information. They also have a new human interface guidelines update, which is also interesting to read through if you're a developer. But because all of this is available, so is the simulator. And with that, I think, comes the stuff

that is the most interesting to me, and maybe the stuff that's most interesting to many members of our audience. For example, we now have details about the guest mode of VisionOS. Because there are some prompts about how the guest mode of VisionOS

works when you try to enable it. So you're kind of given a bunch of prompts. It has to be enabled when you're inside of the headset. So you're wearing the headset and you'd be like, I want to enable guest mode. You can create a passcode that will be entered by the person when they put the headset on or not, it's up to them. And there's a five minute window where if the guest mode is not started, it just reverts back to your state. So basically will require your Iris ID. That's what they're calling it, right?

Or is they calling it iID? I've forgotten now. Yeah, I forget. Is it iID? I don't think it is. I think that was a joke. I don't remember. Someone will confirm this.

I think they call it Iris ID. So basically, I think this makes sense in a way because it's not... Optic ID. Is it Optic ID? Okay. Optic ID. Optic ID. So it's not going to be a blank user account.

They're going to be seeing your user account, your stuff, which I think is the right way to do this. It's essentially the same as handing your iPhonehone unlocked or your ipad unlocked to a friend to look at something where they can use it but what it's doing is it's blocking out stuff some stuff right so that you you know they're not going to be able to look at your most personal things but they'll be able to try it out i don't know that i mean i assume that but like i think so i don't know that like stuff is not shown read my emails go ahead because i can't see it that is the difference like i mean what i'm sure that there'll be some stuff that maybe is behind the scan right but it is different to giving somebody your iphone in that you actually can't observe see what they're doing

you you are not able to see what they are up to while they are uh in your headset experience unless one of the parts of this experience is what they had for us in the demos right where somebody was watching along with what we were doing on an ipad and i wonder if that's going to be one of the features is that if one person's doing this, that there's the ability to, this would also help us for things like screen captures, the ability to project what somebody is seeing on another device, which might be. So maybe that would be a feature of guest mode is that your host, the host can follow along on an iPad or on an Apple TV or something while the guest is doing whatever they're doing. I would like them to add that. I don't have a lot of hope for it because that feels like quite a complicated thing.

I don't know. I mean, they already built a version of it for the demo. And actually, I feel like that for the purposes of press, you're going to have to be able to capture. And that might be a way to do it, very similar to how we capture an Apple TV, which is you sort of like set it up on another device that's on the same wireless network.

And you're able to basically capture a video source. I would bet that that's what it's going to be is that there will be a way to do it, but it's going to be not like airplay and more like having to set up the, you know, setting up X code or whatever, or having it show up in quick time player as a, as a video source,

something like that. You have to pair it, put in the code, all of those things. But I bet you'll be able to capture or view that way. Okay. Interesting. Yeah, I think I heard on the talk show John Gruber was mentioning about what a screenshot's going to be like. And I was like, what will they be like? I don't know what they're going to look like. Will it be the whole what you see? Will it be just the app you're looking at? Snap both your fingers at once

and it takes a screenshot. What will they be? Anyway, so MacStory has put together a good roundup of early developer reactions to the simulator and the SDK. So a bunch of developers compiling their apps for the first time and showing what they look like and talking about the ways that they're broken.

It seems like realistically, it's trivial to get an iPad app running in Vision OS. It's just an iPad app, right? From what I could understand, it doesn't have the fancy translucency and stuff like that. It's very clearly, which none of these people exist yet not, if you're a,

which none of these people exist yet, but if you're like a savvy user of a Vision Pro, you'll know it's just an iPad app, right? Because it just looks like an iPad app. But when you do the compiling for Vision OS, specifically, you get the frosted glass look, that kind of floating pane effect.

I've seen people talking about the fact of like, and it makes sense, dark mode isn't a thing because you can't make it dark i would i would say that there is a potential for dark mode to work with this device depending on an environment that you're in like there are environments which are the like the vr places you can go into the fully immersed things that are dark like they're night so maybe you would want a dark mode but if it's that frosted glass it just will i assume will adapt and maybe will dim in the ui itself right there are no dark modes just dark rooms yes like seriously like it's you know like if if in the way that if you have transparency on the Mac and you have an app with a sidebar, it adapts to your wallpaper.

So I would expect Vision Pro apps would do the same, but you would still want the iPad apps to have dark modes, which they would, I'm assuming, because iPad apps can, so your eyes wouldn't be blinded when you're using some kind of iPad app in that environment. But when developers do compile for Vision OS, then the work is needed because there will be elements of your user interface

that maybe won't look right. But then also you want to take advantage of things. I think they're called adornments is the name that Apple's giving it for like these controls that are in their own window that maybe sit to the side or in front of the main UI, which is

one of the telltale signs of VisionOS is these little controls that pop out on the side and maybe have a different angle to them and stuff and look really cool. But realistically, ornaments, that's what it says, James, not's, says James,

not adornments. I was close. I was close. Realistically, iPad apps, it's good that they're there, but they're going to be a fallback. What we're going to want is VisionOS apps when we're using VisionOS, but for the companies that won't want to do the work, like Google, I'm sure with Google Docs and Google

Sheets, the option will still be there, which I think is the right call. And they're not going to feel, I think it will be out of place, but I don't think as out of place as say using an iPhone app on an iPad. Like they're not going to look visually right, but they're going to work functionally right,

I feel like. And that will be cool at least. Like almost like they're running, you know, just like the Mac stuff is running in a window. It's almost like that. Like this is sort of coming from the iPad and running running here it's not it doesn't belong here but but it is here yeah one of the things that was rumored was the idea of being able to take apps

and put them in a physical space and leave that space and come back to it and they're still there right like this is one of the things that mark gorman was talking about and in our demos we weren't given an experience like that but we could still assume that that would be the case because of the way that the windows seemed to work, but we were in this one room. Well, the simulator, which is hilarious

by the way, because it's like an apartment. You have like this whole apartment and there's all these different rooms in the apartment, but it is cool because then we get to see things like this where Steve Trouton-Smith was doing a bunch of this of opening his various apps in the simulator and putting them in physical places in this room. Like one of the things that I wanted them to do, and I'm happy you could do, is like take an audio player and like pin it to a desk, like flat on a desk. You know, so you could, I could imagine maybe you'd have like widgets, right? Or like

a clock or something like quote unquote widgets, an you'd have like widgets right or like a clock or something like quote unquote widgets an app that looks like a widget like say my time tracking app right i would want timery to just live above my computer screen and if i walk away and come back i could leave the room and come back but it's always going to be there and it looks like that is the way it will work and steve chattinonsmith posted some stuff where he had like one app in the kitchen and one app in the living room and they stayed in those physical locations. How that works for window management,

I don't know, but it's cool that it's there. Yeah, James Thompson had a picture of he's standing in one room with PCALC and through the door to the kitchen is the settings app. It's like, ah, settings apps in the kitchen. Just go to the kitchen if you need any settings.

I've left the settings there for you. Weird, but fun. This is the spatial part of spatial computing. Like it's in the physical space that you're in. I keep thinking about, and maybe some of this is in there, or maybe this is just left for future versions or whatever, but I keep thinking about apps as maybe some of this is in there or maybe this is just left for future versions or whatever but i keep thinking about apps as as like spatial objects so like steve trott and smith scott broadcasts uh you know and it's on a desk or something and i keep thinking

like i almost want to when i'm listening to a a broadcast in vision os i almost want to like have like a little radio yes i've been thinking about this too. That's the audio emitter for broadcasts or maybe even the idea of, think about minimizing an app. Could I minimize broadcasts into a little object that I could put somewhere and the audio would radiate from it like a radio?

So I think yes, Jason, because there are three types of experiences that a developer can make. They can make windows, volumes, and spaces. Sure. Right? And volumes are described as, add depth to your app for 3D volume. Volumes of SwiftUI scenes that can showcase 3D content

using RealityKit or Unity creating experiences that are viewable from any angle in the shared space or an app's full space. And I could imagine a developer creating a little cube, for example, that you put on the desk. So Steve, who's got a 3D printer, so Steve could just get on this. But that's hard, right? That's the hard work. It is, but I'm really intrigued by that idea. And the other example I had was,

or I've got a couple. One would be like Timery. Well, okay, Timery interface, but I would love just trying to think about this. What if there was like an indicator, a light or a sign or something you could put somewhere that would be your Timery status and you could put it somewhere and it would be like a little green light if you're in green or red light if you're in red or a little indicator that says this is the mode that you're in that you could put somewhere. Because when I start to think about spatial computing, I start to think about objects that are not software. Well, they are software. Objects that are not UI, that are indicators. Just like I've got a clock under my TV that shows the temperature and stuff. I've got these little devices around my house. I like that idea of, yes, you know, yes, it's driven

by an app, but I just want to have the indicator somewhere. And I actually don't care about the app right now. I can have broadcasts not visible or it's in another room, but I want the radio to come with me. I want to put the radio here that's playing it, or I want a peak calc to be able to project the, the number, the answer onto the wall or something like that. I don't know what, but where it's more like you're manifesting, instead of it all just being inside a window, you're manifesting it into an object

or projecting it into the space. I think that's really interesting. So when I was, I mentioned this, I think, on this show, I was talking about it a bit before, my imagination told me that skeuomorphism is going to be back in a way in which we've never even to be back in a way in which we've never we've never even imagined but in a way that i think this makes more sense than

it did back then in the modern context of like well yeah you can make the ui look 3d because it will look 3d so why not go for that the other so thinking about broadcasts a little bit more i would say think about what apple has done and historically it's this is from back from the very beginning with the itunes and now music app mini player right there's this idea that you take this complex mode and then you just collapse it down to it's all like a widget almost it is its tiniest thing where it still shows a little album art it tells you what the track is it's got like a play pause button or whatever but it's very very limited but it's time it's tiny and there's something nice about that that's what i keep thinking about with the spatial computing stuff is could you you know i don't

and and maybe as i'm not a developer maybe this is going on but like there are times when you want an interface there are times when you want an interface. There are times when you want to set it up and then just let it run. And that's whether that's minimizing it or whether that's considering it like a different mode or whether there's an extension to the app that is a different thing. Like if I'm listening to a podcast while I'm working, do I want the broadcast interface up while I'm doing that? while I'm working, do I want the broadcast interface up while I'm doing that? Or would I rather have a radio or a little thing that looks like a TV that it's got the podcast art on it, or maybe it's got a waveform or whatever, but it's like an object from which the audio emanates that I can place anywhere and it's not user interface or it's very light user interface.

And spatial audio. I'm intrigued. So the audio can come from the little box too. Right. We know that that's how that works that works right because we saw that in our demo that if you take facetime and you put it in the upper left the voice comes from the upper left so that would be yes i would be able to place my broadcast radio wherever i wanted it off to my left and then i turn away from it and it would be off to my left where i placed it. And just like you'd put a real radio, right? I think that's, I'm excited about that.

I think this spatial computing stuff is more exciting when you start to think about it's not just a bunch of computer windows floating in the air, right? That it can be more than just computer windows that are essentially 2D floating in the air. I know that James Thompson is saying, you know, dice by p-calc would be a volume because he would have a tray that would be a physical object that you could see in three dimensional space where the dice would roll. And like, that makes sense too. I get that. I just keep thinking about like, you could have extensions to apps that are more like physical objects. And I like that idea. Yeah. It's complicated. I empathize with developers because i think oh yeah the apps that are going to quote unquote win the apps that people are going to buy on day one just to try

them out right will be apps that have these kinds of elements to them right we're like oh i heard about this app that it plays radio and it's shaped like a radio and you can put the radio on your desk it's like that kind of stuff is going to be incredibly compelling to people i don't know if it will be more than a fad but i think it will work and i think people will really like those kinds of experiences james thompson's going to be able to buy a new house with the success of james thompson's banana P-Calc, which does nothing but drop objects into your living room. Like, yeah, there's going to be some aspect of that, which is, you know, show this stuff off. I want to see it. And it's going to be similar to some of the experiences we've seen in AR

and iPhones and stuff like that. But yeah, it's, it's it's yeah i i'm i'm really intrigued by how this can go beyond just a bunch of windows with 2d planes because that's interesting but like why are you wearing this thing is not just probably not just so that you can have a whole bunch of windows 2d windows and 3d space there is this element of using computers and the physical space in conjunction and how those two interact so the developer of uh crouton his name's devin devin crouton i don't think there's a name but we'll call them that for this segment uh devin crouton was showing off how in their like the recipe app when they have like individual timers for the things that

you're cooking and what they're playing around with is like popping out those timers and attaching them like to the oven to the hob yeah that's the way rather than multiple timers just existing your timers are stuck to the things that are being timed now i was talking in a group about this i love this idea i would not use vision pro when i'm cooking but there is a device in the future that i would right like that's the idea here but like these are the things where like hey if you got an idea you just play with it and just see this is where great greatness comes from but like that was a is a genius idea to me. The problem is I wouldn't want to use this device, I don't think,

while I'm cooking a meal. It feels a little big for that. But this is just the beginning. So developers have got the simulator, but one of the things we were talking about is how are developers going to actually try these things out. I think in quite a surprise twist, underscore David Smith was posting about the fact

that the first in-person labs that Apple will be running in various locations around the world happen in July. Yep. Which is incredibly early. But why not? And development teams will be able to apply for developer kits.

So one of the things that Mark Gurman mentioned in his newsletter this week, friend of the show, Mark Gurman, is that the hardware is done. And I've heard that through other sources as well. The hardware is done. Everything that's coming between now and January is really the software.

But if you think about that, what that means is developer kits are available because they're making them. And it's basically final hardware. So it's going to be great as a developer kit. So why would they not seed with developer kits? So I think that we're going to see it. Now, the developer kits may have to be tethered to a Mac, and they've got to have a lot of limitations, and they're not going to have the full OS.

I get it. and they've got to have a lot of limitations and they're not going to have the full OS. I get it, but it feels like that's going to happen sooner than people think and maybe even at volumes that people will be surprised by. Not everybody's going to be able to get them. They're going to have a limited supply. People are going to apply.

They're going to have to show their work and Apple's going to have to approve them. Apple has to prioritize. They have to. Yeah, but it feels like that hardware is there. So if it's there and you're making it, seeding those as developer units is a great idea. And like the product's out there now

and it won't tell the whole story because it won't be the full on OS, right? It'll be a developer unit. I'm sure there'll be sites that write stories about, oh, well, we've got to try it and all of that, but it's not going to be the same because it's going to be in this developer mode. But they could totally ship final-ish hardware.

If these reports and what I'm hearing are true, the hardware is pretty good, pretty solid. It's the software stuff that's got to come. So it would make a good developer kit. I look forward to the app that we're going to make. Me and you are going to get into the app development game. We're going to apply for a kit, right? I think that's what's going to happen.

Just a couple of other tidbits on Vision Pro, not related to the SDK. So Wayne Maher at The Information is reporting on a few features currently missing from the Vision Pro that could either still be in development or scrapped. So Apple had planned on there being more fitness and wellness kind of experiences. They've apparently discussed collaborations with companies like Nike

and also had a thing where you could use like the Vision Pro and interact with content, watch content while on stationary bikes and equipment like that. But there's none of that yet. I expect this is coming, but we'll find out. Full body tracking is another thing. Apparently, these devices have the ability to track the movement of your entire body, but the software will not be able to do this

by the time of release. Who knows if it will be added later on or when. And there was also an emphasis on gaming that was pulled back a bit. And this was, I rewatched the keynote over the weekend. I've been meaning to do it and I finally got around to doing it because I just wanted to take in the information

one more time. And one of the things I was struck by in the Vision Pro segment is how they were, I think, quite clear about this is just the beginning of our story on gaming. And that was one of the bigger kind of like, hey, we promise there's more than just play the apple arcade game of a playstation controller right but we don't want

to talk about it right now but they can't i think is i think that was a uh very specific choice to not talk about it in that way and not have the whole thing be framed as a gaming device which i think is smart even if it is also going to be that. Yeah. Mark Gurman said something about how fitness was pulled out of the plan for this product and might not exist until the next product, which I find, I don't,

I don't know. Like I find that really disappointing if it's true. And also I'm not sure quite how they could do it because like there will be fitnessy apps for this thing right like that's going to happen and so for apple to be like yeah but not fitness plus yet because you'll have to buy another one for fitness plus in two years like i kind of i'm skeptical about that i i mean maybe i mean again mark german he has good sources but i i wonder whether that's fitness isn't not going to be in this hardware fitness plus is not going to be in this hardware, fitness plus is not going to be in this hardware, or if it's,

it's not going to be in the shipping version and that they're, they will follow it up down the line because there are two different things, right? They could use this hardware and do a software update to make it stronger as they go. But you know, obviously you've got to pick your spots when you're shipping 1.0. So is it that,

or is it like, Nope, we're not going to even, we built it into the hardware, but we're not going to use it because we decided it wasn't good enough. nope we're not going to even we built it into the hardware but we're not going to use it because we decided it wasn't good enough and we're just going to wait for the next version that's the stuff we don't know talking about mark german in his news he believes he said that he believes that the top strap for the headset so the one that goes over the top of your head the one that we use the one that's in that one shot in the keynote will be an additional purchase apple apparently does not consider it to be essential at this stage all i'll say is they

certainly seemed to think that it was essential for its very important press demos yes i think it is probably i i would say that that is an essential uh piece of the puzzle and when i order mine you can rush so for sure even if it's a 50 thing 100 thing i'll add it because it will definitely add a comfort for the device top strap is so i i can't yeah if this is true that it's an additional purchase i guess it will come down to apple's confidence that people can use it comfortably without because if they keep using it and everybody keeps saying,

I really need the top strap, then I think you got to put the top strap. Who knows? Maybe the situation was if you don't have the right light shield fitting, the top strap is more helpful. And so maybe we have yet to have that full experience, you know, so like maybe,

but I'm not convinced. The lack of a complete set of light shields for this thing suggests that the accessories for this product are still in play. If that makes sense. That I think it's all to play for, right? They may end up saying, oh, geez, we really do need this top strap. Or they may get the light shields where they want them and say it really isn't essential. But wherever they were

for our demos, it certainly was essential for our demos. But our demos had a limited supply of sizes of those light shields. So maybe those are connected. And I mentioned this, but I was told and I think you were too, that the conversation

around straps and headbands like like the situation was not finalized at the time that we had i think they they were not willing to say whether like what is the actual state of this and how will it ship so in fact i think there's a difference between apple didn't say because they don't want it to be part of the conversation and Apple said they didn't know. Yes. And in this case, they said they didn't know. Right. They said specifically it's all up in the air.

We're still working on it. There will be more available at launch. They were very clear, in fact, very clear for Apple, actually, which sometimes is mysterious. It was like, yeah, it's not done. Right. actually, which is not sometimes is mysterious. It was like, yeah, it's not done. Right.

Like they had this freedom because they've preannounced this product so far in advance that they're like, yeah, that part's not done. So we'll see. I think I like Mark's report here. I think that the answer is going to be if it's essential, it will be included and they have time to continue to evaluate whether it turns out that the top strap is essential versus not. This episode is brought to you by Ladder. I am going to guess that like me, you will also sometimes have a tendency to put some stuff off until the last minute. Whether it's those things you don't want to do, like going to the DMV,

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One last time, that is ladderlife.com slash upgrade. Our thanks to Ladder for the support of this show and RelayFM. For the summer of fun this week, Jason Snell, I want to play a game of higher or lower with you.

So Mark Gurman, in his Power On newsletter, detailed his expectations for Apple's product roadmap over the next 12 to 18 months. I'm going to go through with you. We're going to talk about all of these items, and we will rank our excitement for each item higher or lower than the one before. We'll have a baseline that we'll start with, we'll talk about the next one, and we'll say if we are more or less excited for this product than the one that came before it.

Okay, start with the iPhone 15. So this is our baseline, which I will just ask, are you excited about the iPhone 15, the baseline model? And I will remind you that from rumors, we're expecting this one to have a dynamic island and USB-C. It's kind of probably the two big things for this device. Given that I preferred the lower end iPhone in terms of its design for the last few years, I am actually somewhat excited about that. And the idea that they're going to get the dynamic island so that it will spread across the product line, more people will get to experience the dynamic island. I think that's fun. So so sure and i will actually say for those two reasons i am also

like more excited about this device than i would be normally considering i prefer the pro phones because i think this will be a good jump for the iphone 15 and the dynamic island rolling out across more devices will only increase the adoption for more people. So I'm also excited. But are you more or less excited about the iPhone 15 Pro, which is expected to get a titanium frame and a periscope lens? I'm encouraged with the titanium, and I'm intrigued by the improved camera. But I'm going to say less. Less excited?

Why? improved camera but i'm gonna say less less excited why because i because i've just been disappointed with the pro phones lately i i think the colors are boring and they're heavy so maybe the titanium will help there and the cameras are nice but like i'm intrigued by the periscope lens like i said but i don't know it's because i'm a man of the people, Mike. I think the people want the iPhone 15. I'm obviously more excited about the iPhone 15 Pro. Obviously. Because the titanium frame just is intriguing to me. I want to know what that's all about. But I'm most excited for the periscope lens because the periscope lens is only expected to be on the very best phone,

which is the phone that I choose, which is the Pro Max phone. The big, big, big phone. The big, big, big phone. Makes me even less excited about it. Yes, actually, yes. For you Max phone. The big, big, big phone. It makes me even less excited about it. Yes, actually, yes. For you, less. For me, more. So now we'll move to a different product line

and see how this changes things. Apple Watch Series 9, which for everything I could find today, the only rumor that I could find is it's going to get a new chip. That's kind of it. It doesn't really seem like anybody's expecting a lot out of this.

Are you more or less excited about the Apple Watch Series 9 and the iPhone 15 Pro? Let's just say less. I don't think there's going to be much here. I don't know at what point Apple is going to do the thing and redesign the Apple Watch. I don't know. Are they just waiting for 10? I don't know. I don't know. Or is the Apple Watch? Like, I don't know what... Are they just waiting for 10? I don't know. I don't know.

Or is the Apple Watch Ultra kind of the... They're more concerned with spreading out the product line than they are redesigning the base model that everybody's familiar with? And maybe that, you know, in the end there will be another Apple Watch designed in addition to the shape of the

classic Apple Watch? I don't know. There certainly, I mean, certainly, I know our listeners might be different, but like, there's no reason to buy an Apple Watch every year or even every other year. It's like, it's, the progress is slow, but it's steady. They need to come out with a new one every year, I think, for various reasons. But, you're, they're picking up new buyers and people who've got like, Lauren just got a new Apple watch cause she reached the end of her rope with her series four. Okay.

So there you go. She went from series four to, you know, late stage of series eight. Uh, that feels like an Apple watch buying cycle to me. So, you know,

I'm not excited. I have a set series seven, I think, you know, I look at this and I series seven i think you know i look at this and i think whatever i'm i'm fine with mine but nice great it's out there for people who are ready to update from something or from nothing yeah my excitement is lower that i think the the apple watch the baseline apple watch like it's becoming they i don't think this should be on an annual cycle this product the regular apple watch

i think it's becoming harder and harder for apple to tell a story every time but yeah they tell a story every time like i feel like would it not just be easier for them to release one every 18 like on the ipad cycle or something my counter argument is that they it's an apple it's an iphone accessory so they like it to come out with the iPhones. And they're not really breaking their backs on these updates. They're incremental. I think they just like having the increment. And in other words,

it's worth it for them to increment from eight to nine. You're right, when we're trying to cover it and we're looking at their story that they're telling, it's so limited because the pace is so slow most of the time but obviously it works for them in the market to just kind of like iterate remember they've been iterating using the same package for a few years now maybe it'd be better to just now have an apple watch right like because now they have multiple so maybe just an apple watch gets an update every year but maybe that's going to take a long time, to which I will get to the Apple Watch Ultra.

Mark Gurman is saying that there will be a second version this year. I was wondering if this will be called Series 2 or if they just won't name it or what. I don't know about that. There aren't any particular rumors about the Apple Watch Ultra, about an update for it. Now, it was rumored that the next Apple Watch Ultra would maybe get a larger micro LED display,

but this was expected to be 2024. So maybe that is still for 2024 and there will be a 2023 version with the new chip in it or something. I will say my excitement for this is higher, higher than any, I'm breaking tradition, higher than any of the other things on this list because I really want a new Apple Watch

and I'm waiting for the Ultra because I'm not going to, I'm not going to buy it now, am I? Right? So like we're three months away and I'm done with my Apple Watch, my Series 7. The battery is just not what I want it to be although i i've heard

from a lot of people and gruber posted about this that i think there's something in the in the latest os update that that is killing the battery on these things because a lot of people are all of a sudden this is why lauren got a new one mine isn't all of a sudden but i understand that is happening for people i'm getting battery warnings way earlier than I used to on my Series 7 as well. So I'm wondering if there's something else going on here. And it's not just the normal aging, but there's been a change either in consuming the battery by the OS or in the flag of when it tells you your battery is low. I'm not sure which one. I am much higher for the Apple Watch Ultra. I wasn't entirely

convinced there would be an annual cycle for the Apple Watch Ultra. So obviously, whatever they are looking at, they're like, yeah, totally. We're going to keep, I mean, whatever makes them iterate the Apple Watch. They looked at the Ultra and said, we are absolutely doing that. I've been surprised at how many people I know have really been into the apple watch ultra i have to i'm going to make a little admission here i'd never really touched one or seen one in the wild until wwdc i i'd seen them in the you know apple area at the announcement event but i hadn't looked at one in the apple store and i don't have one and i know you know right so um it's really nice like it's really nice enough to give me pause

about whether i might want one that's how nice it is so it's got orange on it you like orange i do like orange it's true so i'm intrigued yeah that it's going to be my upgrade if they do it that's that's the easiest upgrade of everything for me this year because it's something that rather than just doing like I'll always just do, like I want these things, but I'll always get the new iPhone because it's part of my job to know what's going on with the iPhone. I felt like many years ago that the Apple Watch did not really count in that. But I just want a new Apple Watch

and I want the Apple Watch Ultra because I think it's cool. But I didn't pull the trigger. Good you wanting an Apple Watch. Amazing. I still would prefer to not have an Apple Watch and to have a band that I could wear on my wrist that went into fitness

and then I could wear a regular watch. But if I'm going to have to have one because I want one because of the fitness stuff then i want the one that i like the look of the most and that's the apple watch ultra we move now to the 13 inch macbook pro with an m3 chip in it which is apparently coming they're not okay i need you to define excitement for me now yeah if mark german were to say that the 13 inch macbook pro is getting redesigned to not be the touch bar and all of that but it's going to be more like the 14 and 16 inch models i would have more excitement um he hasn't reported that and And, you know, as the, I mean, basically the executives at the talk show at WWDC said something like, you know, yeah, you want the Touch Bar?

You got it. Whatever. You know, I think Joss said that. It's like, yeah, we all, let's just, we all know why this product exists. And it's not because anybody wants it. It's because corporate buyers probably are just like, they want a MacBook Pro. Give me the cheapest model, here's what it is.

But Mike, even if there were rumors that the Touch Bar was going away and they were going to redesign it a little bit, it still wouldn't be more than the Apple Watch Ultra, so less. This is the easiest one to say, lower in excitement levels. Lower. 14 and 16-inch MacBook Pro with M3 Pro and M3 Max. 14 and 16 inch MacBook Pro with M3 Pro and M3 Max.

Oh, but I'm comparing it to the MacBook Pro 13 inch. Well, higher then. Okay, higher. My enthusiasm for those is not super high because I think that it's just going to be, I'm sure the M3 is going to be a step ahead of the M2. Great. Those are good machines, but not super enthusiastic,

but yeah, more than the MacBook Pro 13, for sure. And I always find it an interesting story of how the performance is year over year. I still think that that's fun because how do they do it? How do they define it? Is there some kind of thing that could make a jump or not? And so this will be the good compare we'll get

for what these chips are like. make a jump or not. And so these will be the good, this will be the good compare we'll get for the, for what these chips, I don't know what these chips are like will be here. So I'm actually pretty excited about this. Okay.

Quote, new MacBook Air models is what Mark said. I'm presuming this is M3. Yeah. In the 14, sorry,

in the 13 and the 15, right? And the 15. Yeah. So that would probably, that's probably a year away from now uh i i yeah maybe maybe i would i would say early next year yeah yeah

like the 15 because the the it's a year out almost from the shipping of the m2 air yeah so if they wait too long you know i don't know if the m2 air needs to sit there for for another year uh and the 15 inch model is just going to have a the m2 is going to have a short life and it's going to be replaced by an m3 model and that's just how it is so my guess is yeah early next year but um uh more higher higher because I'm higher on the MacBook Air. I'm excited about it. I love that M2 design. Looking forward to a new M3 version of it. Yeah, so higher. What about, I also say, no, I'm less excited about the new MacBook Air models

than I am about the MacBook Pros. Okay. But what about the MacBook Pros. Okay. But what about the 24-inch iMac of M3? Then the MacBook Air? Then the MacBook Air. I don't know. I'm less excited because all it's going to be is the new chip. And the new chip, you know, M3 should be a bigger jump than m1 to m2 new process

three nanometer process all that like like great but uh they already redesigned the iMac and it's just going to be that um i'm a little more excited about the possibility that the iMac might have a pro option right an m3 pro option i think that would be a good choice if they did that well mp3 pro it's not like that much more i i would like that but i don't think that and mark german also said two model two you know he says two models we're not there yet no no he says two he says two models of 24 inch imac oh he did when i missed that he did okay then two models of 24 inch imac okay well then ignore what I said we'll assume it says mp3 pro I didn't include that in my notes it could be the classic lousy base model

and then a much better model but it could be that it's a there's a base model and then there's a a pro chip option I don't know I think if it's in the Mac mini it might be in the iMac so I'll throw that in there still lower than the MacBook Air because they already changed the iMac what I'll say though is for me this was a toss-up between the MacBook Air and they already changed the iMac. What I'll say though is for me, this was a toss up between the MacBook Air and the 24 inch iMac because the computers that I love both of and them both moving to M3,

I'm kind of like equally excited. But if now I've missed this second model thing, now I'm more excited about this because I just think it would be cool if they put a more powerful chip in the 24 inch iMac just for fun. But I don't think they're going to do it, but it would be cool if they put a more powerful chip in the 24-inch iMac just for fun. But I don't think they're going to do it, but it would be fun if they did.

What I thought you were referencing is the next thing, which is Mark said that Apple is, quote, conducting early work on a 30-inch iMac. 30-plus. Yeah. He said, I think he said 30 inches or a larger yeah iMac um more

exciting of course this i don't think this is coming out in the time frame of his article and there's a few things here conducting early work yes right but uh minimum 30 inches is exciting and a strange size. How big? Like 34? That's a big computer. You know what I mean? How far are we going to go here?

It's a big old computer. It's basically a really nice big display with a Mac in it, essentially. Which they can do because the Mac hardware is so tiny. They can absolutely do that. That would be an interesting... That would be basically interesting that would be basically an iMac Pro I assume um it would probably be yeah I don't know it's that's a cool idea it's interesting because then they would give people the choice of you can get a

mini or a studio and an external display or you can just buy this iMac and and uh you'll be in great shape. So we're both more excited than 24. What about an OLED iPad Pro? I'm going to go less excited. I just feel like I've been burned too many times on the iPad Pro. I need more than OLED. I need more than OLED.

I would like to see, is there a next-gen pencil that's going to be part of this? Is it going to have the oled wait i need more than oled yeah i would like to see is there a third is there a you know next gen pencil that's going to be part of this is it going to have the moved the moved facetime your camera and stuff so it's on the side where it's more horizontally oriented is there are there other changes to the accessory story like i need more to be excited about then it's going to be an oled screen the oled screen that'll be nice it'll be nice but but it's going to be really expensive too and and so you know like we spoke that was a rumor from a long time ago but there's just i cannot imagine a world in which an oled ipad pro isn't even isn't more expensive than the current ipad pros and then like you i need to see

more here so i'm less excited for this just because apple need to blow me away with this ipad pro because i feel like we haven't had that in too long now uh what about new ipad air um less i love the ipad air i think it's a fantastic ipad but i don't think there's going to be much of a story here so i would also be less excited i think i think it'll have an m2 and otherwise because they just they just design did they just redesign it or is it last year i think yeah but did they redesign it i think it's the low-end model is the only one so it would be more exciting like if they did some of those some of those changes uh that the low-end model got, but I'm not going to be as

enthusiastic about an iPad Air as an iPad Pro. That's just not going to happen. I genuinely think the iPad Air is a fantastic iPad. It's currently the best iPad you can buy for bang for buck, in my opinion. It's the one that most people should buy, but I don't expect there to be much there

that's new for a while. Third-gen AirPodsods pro early development more because i use airpods pro and i like them a lot not that i've you know this is this is multiple years away i expect yeah i think so and i don't really know i don't have any sense right now what i would want from this um but yes i would say more too because it's you know i use the air the airpods pro are up there for me with the apple devices i use the most in my day you know like i've had them in for hours and hours a day every day so smart display early development uh gene munster is very excited about this i i don't know i'm not excited about it because i'm not sure apple should be making a display i'm intrigued by the idea the

idea here is basically what if apple made a tv a really nice tv with apple tv guts inside of it well i oh is that what you thought i took away that this was a home pod with a home pod that's what i took that oh really oh i didn't read that at all smart display you think it's a home pod well if that's right i'll go with you because it was it was couched with home stuff although i thought it was like a tv smart display sure yes more more excited then because i am very excited television i don't know but well then less excited then i read it as a bullet points here sure if it's a tv less excited if it's a home pod with a screen more excited and i will mirror you on those uh yeah and then also an apple tv with quote improved specifications in early development less excited me too because

it's just going to be an apple tv yeah if it's what i want it to be more excited which is like it's an apple tv that is a sound bar and has integrated has a camera stuff in it sure but that's not improved specifications isn't yeah it's not that exciting to have improved specifications there we go that is a higher or lower on excitement wow the list of that was a roller coaster it really was do you know what i'm going to. That was a roller coaster by design. It actually really was. Do you know what? I'm going to say it's a roller coaster I would not like to ride

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can see the ingredients that are in it it is not a mysterious mush it is like you can see that they're good ingredients you can understand that they're the kind of ingredients that a human might eat uh and that that dogs are gonna love it um she definitely got much more excited about eating her food when we started adding, um, nom nom. I mostly was sort of adding it as a topper to her other food, um, which is one of their options. They give you serving size for like full food or as a topper or like there are different ways you can do it based on the weight of your dog.

Um, she, uh, so Maisie was, uh, a pound dog. She was picked up on the streets of Corker in California out in the Central Valley, right by that lake that we have now that we didn't have before. That was where Maisie's from. And she was malnourished. We don't know how long she'd been out there or how she'd been treated before that, but basically you could see her ribs. She was super malnourished. So it's been very important and a priority since we got her to feed her better, put her on better food, and get her to have good nutrition because she really suffered from very bad nutrition early in her life. So this has been a fun process because she's super into the nom-nom food and definitely gets way more attentive about feeding time when Nom Nom food is in the mix. She's a very good dog. Just a very enthusiastic dog. This is a no-brainer. Nom Nom comes with a money-back guarantee.

If your dog's tail isn't wagging within 30 days, Nom Nom will refund your first order. No fillers, no nonsense, just Nom Nom. Go right now for 50% off your no-risk two-week free trial at trynom.com slash upgrade. That's N-O-M, so it's trynom.com slash upgrade for 50% off at trynom.com slash upgrade. Our thanks to NomNom for their support of this show and RelayFM and for making Maisie happy. Let's finish out with some Ask Upgrade questions for today's episode. John asks,

you see the term evangelist spoken about in the context of Apple. What does this mean? Evangelist, I don't know if it originated with a guy, Kawasaki, but he was the famous Apple evangelist at one point. The idea here is to get people in a community uh enthusiastic about what apple is doing so you you hear it a

lot about like developers and developer evangelist and i feel like developer evangelism i mean somebody who's in in the developer space would know better than me because it's not my direct area i talk to pr marketing people but like evangelism is historically uh you want to be in part a representative of what you're hearing from developers on the outside inside apple but i think primarily when you see that term i think it gets the message across it's trying to get apple's let's say developers, although it could also be in like Fortune 500 businesses, you can have evangelists in a lot of different areas who are trying to get people enthusiastic about what Apple is doing. So it's

like, you got to adopt our APIs, or here's this new thing we're doing for big businesses. And there's this new system and we've got this or we got this new small business essentials tool and we want you to be excited about it so it's like kind of pitching to a particular audience it's not the media right it's like a particular audience and trying to be these making this connection between uh the people on the inside and the people on the outside they're like a conduit for that or they're they're kind of like getting the people on the outside excited sarva in the chat points out that renee richie is now a youtube evangelist right they don't call it that see i i think evangelist is a term that apple wouldn't use if they were creating this today i think it is a holdover from a no it's from the 80s yes it's from the 80s it's from from Guy Kawasaki. And yeah, it is a weird term, but that's

the idea. Rene is called creator liaison. That is his role. Yeah, but that's what it is. That is a traditional evangelism title, I would say, where you're trying to communicate with the outside about what you're doing on the inside, but also maybe even less noticeable on the

outside is taking what you're hearing on the outside and telling it to the inside so that you know right because like a lot of people who work at the inside at apple or youtube or anywhere else are not out there with the customers all the time but you need to have some people who are on the surface who are able to interface with the people on the outside and then relay back what the issues are people who are trusted by by both sides too right that like they can get they can give the information but also collect information and i think it is a very important role it felt like for a while it was maybe a role that apple

seemed to move away from a little bit but it came back and i think now it feels like we also talk about developer relations maybe more than we used to. Exactly. And those terms, I think, are now interchangeable. Developer relations was always there, right? WWDR, Worldwide Developer Relations. Like, it was always there. But yeah, I think that the term comes in and out of favor, and that's fine. But the idea, the idea generally is who is talking to the outside world and yes, potentially kind of whipping up enthusiasm for whatever Apple's new thing is. So in this context,

it might be for vision OS, but it could also just be for some new API or something, you know, or, or getting people to get over to Apple Silicon and leave Intel behind or whatever it needs to be to sort of like be out there and saying, Hey, Hey, Hey, person in this community, Apple wants you to know about this stuff we're doing and wants to get you on board with this and a little more active. Like I said, you know, in some contexts it's, it's like a sales role, but it's not quite the same because they're not necessarily trying to, it's almost like marketing to a different audience. They want to get like, because they're not necessarily trying to sell developers, literally products,

but they are trying to sell a developer evangelist developers on what Apple is doing. So the developers will buy in with their time and their resources, not literally writing an Apple, a check, but saying, yes, I will implement your open doc,

whatever, which is what happened in the 90s. It wasn't that good. But anyway, it's like that. Stuart asks, do you think the sales of AR or VR products will be included in wearables broken out into their own category or some new category that Apple reports in their earnings? that Apple reports in their earnings. Until Vision Pro and friends reach the point where they're selling so much that legally Apple has to break them out

into another category, there is some threshold for that. I forget what it is. Until that day, they will be in wearables, home, and accessories. I could imagine it also being, if it wasn't legal, but I'm sure,

no, I have no doubt that it is. I didn't know that, but until you just mentioned it, I could also it also being, if it wasn't legal, but I'm sure, no, I have no doubt that it is. I didn't know that until you just mentioned it. I could also imagine a scenario until Apple was proud enough of the results that they would put them into their own. The beauty of it, and we just look at the Apple Watch for a comp here. Apple Watch is part of wearables, home, and accessories. Apple, and so are AirPods, right? part of wearables, home and accessories, Apple and so are AirPods, right? Apple can point at the category and say, look at grew and then mention right after that Apple watch is doing great. And implies that what you see in that category is Apple watch doesn't necessarily mean it is

right. It might be in, in home pods or Apple TVs or AirPods, but they want you to think about it as an Apple Watch proxy or any of those other products too, they could do that. Also, they've gotten very good at pointing out when there's a milestone that they think they're proud of and that they want to share for a particular product, they will call it out. So you will see in a few years, you'll see, you know, Vision Pro for the holiday season of 24, we set an all-time record in Vision Pro revenue, or we sold the most Vision Pros we've sold in any quarter. And they can say that without giving you any Vision Pro specific detail. And it's just rolled into the wearables, home and accessories number. That's what they're going to do with this until they're legally required to do otherwise, right?

Like, cause there is a threshold at which, and I don't know the details, but like, I don't think they can get away with rolling iPhone, iPad, and Mac together into one line, right? Those are distinct products and they both, they all generate a lot of revenue and they want to do it. But Vision Pro, I just don't see it. I think it'll be in wearables, home and accessories, and I think they'll be happy to have it there. Matt asks, considering that the M3 is probably going to be rolled out maybe around the same time as the Vision Pro, are there any odds that Apple will use the M3 in the headset instead, more performance and maybe better battery life? No, my understanding is that the Vision Pro is performance and maybe better battery life no my understanding

is that the vision pro is made and that they're working on the next one maybe that'll have an m3 or an m4 in it but this one's going to have an m2 i i'd say that that it's a zero chance i don't think it's as simple as just hot swapping these things in i don't think it works like that no i think the challenge with it being delayed and delayed and with it not even shipping until next year is just that this is what it is, is based on this. I think it's very low odds that they would pull it apart and then put it back together. I mean, it's not, I wouldn't say zero. I mean, it's possible, except we haven't heard anything about this. It's possible that in the background, they're doing a quick swap to put in another chip but given that that chip is not even going to be out until about the same time i'm i'm doubtful that they would at the last minute

uh say well no the m2 is really for uh for developer kits and the shipping one will be an m3 it's a non-zero but i think very unlikely and will asks with apple producing more content for the vision pro do you think that future Apple keynotes will be made for viewing inside of the headset? For those of us that have never been to WWDC, feeling like we're in the Steve Frost theater would be cool. You know, I hadn't really thought about this. I would not put it past them at all.

I hope so. That they would do immersive versions of their events. The problem is that the are are pre-taped now so are they going to do like an immersive version of the keynote video as well as a regular version i don't know are they going to do a 3d conversion of it i don't know maybe they will i hope so but probably you know probably not experience something about the keynote in immersive video yeah my i think it's more likely that there will be like special product videos and stuff that will be made

in an immersive or 3d format but that it won't necessarily be a whole thing however i wouldn't put it past them to do something like having a virtual theater that you can go to right in the vision pro and watch the thing and they actually make a recreation of the steve jobs of the steve jobs theater and you're and you're sitting in it and you can for kinos and you can share you can share play it with friends and you can all watch it together and talk about it or whatever like i i think something like that maybe but i i doubt i doubt they're going to do the whole thing but yeah that's a that's a funny clever idea but who knows right like to start with yeah probably a little bit but who knows what the future will hold maybe you know they'll just put them on people's faces and they'll record them if they do some product videos that are in 3d um or are immersive that would be

a thing you could do is if you watch it in the vision pro you'd watch the regular 2d video with everyone else but when it went to the 3d one maybe you drop into immersive mode or you see it as a 3d image or something like that i could see them doing something like that but again more for those like little sizzle videos they do that are three minutes long not the whole thing i don't i don't think they're going to do it i would have a different answer if this was a live event but it's not a live event anymore. So I think it's unlikely. Look, if it's WWDC and there are a bunch of developers in the crowd and they're watching the video,

would they try to capture that as immersive video so you're literally sitting in the crowd watching a video? Maybe, but probably not. If you would like to send us in your feedback, follow-up, or your Ask Upgrade questions, please go to upgradefeedback.com and you can do so and we may include them in a future episode in until next time you can check out jason's work over at sixcolors.com you can hear his podcast at the incomparable.com and here on relay fm which is where you will hear me as well we're going to

have a special guest on connected this this week, who we've mentioned a bunch of times in this episode to talk about their experiences with Division Pro SDK. So you can look out for that on Connected. You can also check out my work at cortexbrand.com. You can find me and Jason on Mastodon. Jason is at jsnow on zeppelin.flight. So remember, if you are from New Zealand and would like to tell Jason how you pronounce beta, you can tell him there. You can find me as at imike on mike.social.

And you can also find this show as at upgrade on relayfm.social, where you can see video clips that we produce of the show, which you will also find on TikTok and Instagram, where we are at Upgrade Relay. Please check them out. We are getting universally good feedback about these clips.

If you've not yet followed one of the accounts, you should do, and you'll get to see a little bit more context, a little bit more fun, what me and Jason are up to when we're recording the show. Thank you to our members who continue to support us with Upgrade Plus. Go to getupgradeplus.com to find out more. Thank you to our sponsors of this week's episode. That is NomNom, Ladder, Electric, and Notion. And thank you

for listening. Until next time, say goodbye, Jason Snow. Goodbye, Mike Hurley. Thank you.