Upgrade - 468: Nonstop Bangers Involving Saxophone Solos

Episode Date: July 18, 2023

As the Public Betas arrive, there's breaking bad news for Mac Pro fans, Jason has an invitation for Tim Cook, and we explore our favorite Emoji.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 468 today's show is brought to you by notion electric and zocdoc my name is mike hurley and we're bringing a certain energy today welcome to the show, Jason Snow. Good morning. If you would like more context for this, I guess check out our Instagram, TikTok, Mastodon. I don't know. I might explain it a little bit more, but there'll be some more of that over on our various video social media channels. I have a Snow Talk question for you. It comes from Jonathan jonathan wants to know

jason what is your go-to summer of fun summer road trip listening music podcast audiobooks that kind of thing oh um you know the truth is road trips are long And the only way you can do it, I think, at least the only way I can do it is by switching. So I try to kind of go back and forth between music and spoken word. It's mostly podcasts, music and podcasts. I have done audiobooks. I'm not an audiobook person. But I did. I was driving to Phoenix for Christmas. and it was just me because my family

flew down later i spent some extra days with my mom and i did listen to an audiobook on that trip because i was uh i was trying to work that in but it's not you know it's not my primary thing uh but music and podcasts so like when we were going up to o last month, it was, and I drove same thing. I drove that one way by myself because I can take days off because I'm my own boss and my wife is not her own boss and cannot take so many days off. So I do a lot of that sort of like logistics mixing kind of thing. So she drove back with me, but I drove up there and that was a very much empty my podcast queue. But after a while, you're like, I cannot listen to these people anymore. And then I play music for a while and then I go back to the podcast. So I think like it's part of this complete

nutritious breakfast. You got to have a little bit of the music, a little bit of the podcast, and you kind of mix it up a little bit. I don't think I could do just either. And that goes back to when I had a long car commute and stuff. I feel like when I had a long car commute in the 90s, when I was just starting out, I had to drive across the San Mateo Bridge. It was really, oh, God, I drove so much, spent so much time in my car at that time. Podcast listeners know what I'm talking about because a lot of you are doing that right now. Hello. And I listened to sports talk for a while and news radio for a while and i was switched between them and i came to the

point where i was like i can't do this anymore and i literally bought a cd player from my car because i'm like i gotta listen to something else and then so i can put music on so it's just a balanced a balanced diet is what i say. Balanced diet. Like commuters. That's the bread and butter, right? We're here for you, commuters. Like podcast industry would collapse if there were no more commutes. You know, but that did happen to certain parts of the industry with COVID, but it didn't happen to us so much.

So thank you for that. Appreciate it. Yeah, we appreciate it. It's true. Now a song. Indeed. If you'd like to send in it's not a question of your own it's very simple just go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send one in jason i have some i would say breaking news very very good breaking Mac Pro follow-up that came in to us.

This is not necessarily, like we can't confirm this story. Sure. Because it just came in across the transom from somebody who is anonymous. So take it for what it's worth, but it's very interesting information. So this came from one of our patented anonymous informants. I am an Apple engineer working on the GPU team. It pains me to say that Jason's speculation is correct. The quad chip has been canned with no plans to return.

For context, we are actively developing what will presumably be the M5 chip, and the quad chip was only ever specced for the M1 and removed late in the project. There are no plans to create a quad chip through at least the M7 generation. My understanding is that the quad required too much effort for too small of a market. Something interesting that may come in the M8 in future generations is called multi-die packaging. This allows the CPU and GPU parts of the chip to be fabricated on different dies and packaged together, much like how two Max chips make an Ultra. With this design, it is conceivable that we could have three, four, or five or more GPU dies with one or two CPU for a graphics

powerhouse or vice versa for a CPU workstation that doesn't need as much GPU grunt. However, as far as I know, no such plans exist yet. Well. Well indeed. If this report from our anonymous

source is true things not looking great for the Mac Pro No. At least if this report from our anonymous source is true, things not looking great for the Mac Pro. No. At least not the idea of a Mac Pro that some people really want, right? Which is this CPU powerhouse. So to kind of break that down, in case you need a little catch up,

the idea of there was a talk of and consideration of taking like four m1 pros would it have been and putting them together to make an m1 extreme effectively or to take two m1 maxes and put those together and make like an m1 extreme chip which would be housed inside of the new mac pro that didn't happen and what our informant is suggesting is this was only ever planned for the M1. So once the Mac Pro did not come out during the M1, well, that was the end of that.

Yeah. It's interesting because the thing here is that what I said on, I think it might have even been on Upgrade Plus, but what I said about this- We continued our conversation about the Mac Pro even further in upgrade plus but we spoke about this on the main show too. When you're talking about the relevance of the Mac Pro going forward for anything other than this extremely limited use case of some expansion

you know I.O. cards and otherwise its performance it offers is identical to the Mac Studio what I said was if there's a quad chip at some point, then it makes sense. Um, if there is not a quad chip at some point, it doesn't really make sense. And my real question based on this, if this is true, my question is, is Apple going to keep the Mac pro case? I mean, on one level they can keep the Mac pro case alive because they've designed it essentially. And they're going to keep making these new versions of the ultra chip they could just keep dropping them in there and and how much expense is that really and and so maybe they'll keep it around but like if you're looking for a mac pro that offers appreciably greater performance

than a mac studio you would need to go out. I mean, to this idea, an intriguing idea that you could ultimately make chip variants that, that, that have like multiple GPU or CPU dies, which could potentially happen, but you're still, I mean, at this point, we're talking about like six, seven, eight years from now, a very long time. And so if this is accurate, what we need to do is what we is think of the mac pro as what we think of it today like literally today which is all it is is a mac studio with slots for io and that's all it's going to be for a while according to this report i mean you know i've probably assumed this is just it like i do i imagine in like seven years they still have a mac pro that looks like

the way it does now i don't i don't know if i would i wouldn't be willing to put money on that basically like like it maybe it makes sense for right now it maybe makes sense because they promised it you know maybe part of the problem was maybe part of the reason this thing exists is they promised it when they were going to do the 4-die chip. But then they stopped that plan. But they promised that the Mac Pro was coming. And so here it is. And it's just like the Ultra chip with some expandability. And that's because that's what they promised

they would deliver something. And they're just going to, I just reckon they move on over the next few years. And maybe the Mac Studio grows in some way to swallow up more of the market. And the market just gets smaller and smaller and smaller. That is it worth it? Like, because the way I would see it, right?

This idea of this multi-die packaging that Aaron Forman's talking about, if they develop that, they're not developing that just to make configurable Mac Pro machines. It's going to go into other stuff. So it doesn't make sense to me necessarily that they would keep the current Mac Pro tower design around

for another six, seven, eight years on the hope that they might be able to create a chip tailored for that one. You know what I mean? Like, I just feel like this would just go in MacBook Pro as it would go in Mac Studios. I hear what you're saying, but I don't know. Now that they've done an Apple Silicon Mac Pro,

I'm not sure that there's much cost in them keeping it around now and just keeping it around now and just keeping it like literally they're like, we know how many people, assuming it sells at all, right, to this market that they apparently want to keep, which is this, you know, audio and video studio kind of market that they say, okay, we'll just keep iterating that every year or two with the new chip, but otherwise making no other changes. And it'll just sit there and there's not, you know, it's of limited costs since they've already got it out the door. It's got cost,

but like they made this one. I could see them making others. Yeah. Yeah, they've done it. And I see that. Makes perfect sense. But if someone asked me to put money on it, I wouldn't.

I wouldn't put money on it. So I'm just not sure. Nevertheless, this is a super interesting piece of information. I'm willing to go along with it because it makes sense to me with the way that it was explained. Because the rumors did just stop about this extreme chip. It just stopped at a certain point. And that may have been just because they completely abandoned that part of the project, moved on, and that was the end of it.

Yeah, and I do have that question about if they didn't say, yes, we're going to do a Mac Pro, and also we're living down the legacy of having said, no, no, no, no, no, we care about you and we designed this new Mac Pro. All that legacy is probably part of the reason that that product exists at all. part of the reason that that product exists at all but we don't know like it's entirely possible that apple looks at it and says look this is this is we're not willing to overhaul our entire processor architecture in order to do a different kind of mac pro but we'll do this mac pro this is this is as far as we're able to go and and that may be true yeah we'll find out i'm not i don't know i mean i i think i heard well i heard the episode of atp where john was talking about what we were talking about what we were talking about in response to us. So we can follow back around to that again. And I think maybe you

just may have mentioned it. He made mention to it too, the idea of like the Mac round table, and they got everybody together and spoke about the future of the Mac. And you'll maybe need to remind me, but I don't remember that they spoke about the Mac Pro then, just that there was an iMac Pro. Did they talk about the Mac Pro then too? No, the way it worked is they were doing the iMac Pro as the replacement for the Mac Pro, and then they changed direction. Ah, there it is.

And the round table, they said, we will do a new Mac Pro. We got the Mac Pro wrong. We are going to make a modular system. Modular system. At one point, they were like, the future of the Mac Pro is a closed system. It's an iMac Pro,

which is essentially what the Mac Studio is, right? Like, essentially, that's the same strategy if they were to drop the Mac Pro. And so I think part of them is like, you know, let's keep it alive. We designed this thing, the enclosure, the one time. So we've got the enclosure. They've now built an Apple Silicon version of it. They'll watch, I'm sure. And depending on the pain point, they might

kill it entirely. But I would probably make the counter argument, which is if there's an M2 Mac Pro, there will probably be M3 or at least M4 Mac Pro as well. That's basically the system we've got with the more recent chip on it. And it could have very impressive performance depending on the amount of GPU cores that they put in the future chips. But it's not going to be that quad thing that would really have the big performance we're expecting. But maybe that's okay. Maybe it's the minimal commitment they can make without doing a larger commitment like doing a quad chip or changing their entire architecture. So maybe that's what the future of the Mac Pro is, is what this is.

But if this report is right, I think that there are only two futures for the Mac Pro in the near term, which is more of this or gone. Yeah, I think the thing that threw me is there was so much in that round table because it was also where we found out about the iMac Pro for the first time, right?

Like this is where we'd first heard about it, if I'm remembering correctly. They were talking about like a more powerful iMac as well as a modular Mac Pro but the iMac Pro was around the corner because it was just about to get rid of the Mac Pro but they ended up changing course but yeah nevertheless this i just think this is more example of changing courses in Apple and how it affects the Mac Pro which i think is just kind of how it always will because it is the thin end of the wedge it's an edge case right it's an edge case and so when apple when apple makes any sort of like larger company-wide or even platform-wide decision

the shape of the thing gets deformed a little bit right or reformed into something new and the uh if you're on the edge right you could discover that the uh your edge has gone right and then you're you're not even in the the bubble anymore and you have to move or or lost yep and i think nothing shows that more than the mac pro we have right now because it was only created because of uproar right right? And so it was this machine created to kind of harken back to the glory days, quote-unquote, of the Mac Pro, right?

The G5, right? That kind of era. The big silver tower, right? Looking as it does. And so we ended up with that, but it was just before Apple Silicon, where clearly in an Apple Silicon world, that's not the design they want either, right?

Like, because it doesn't need to be as big as it is now. It only really needed to be that size for when they originally did it, for the few years that they did it, and then halfway through its life cycle, it now has a completely different architecture inside and all of the modularity, the vast majority of the modularity has now been taken away from it and so like this i think this

current mac pro is like a perfect example of what it's like to be that edge case product where like now it's kind of not fit for purpose because its original purpose was for a very specific thing which now doesn't exist anymore but we still have this case no that's exactly it there's in our discord david shops like oh that was just a marketing stunt uh it doesn't mean anything about today but it's like but but you got to understand the path that it led to which is it was part of a re uh it's not that it's not that they can't break a promise but they did make a promise so they're doubling back on it as hard but also it set them on a path where they designed that case and they made a lot right like and now that then they've got the case so they're

like well we've got the case so we could do this and like it does lead where uh to where we are now in a way uh but here we are right that's the truth of it is like would apple make this decision today of like oh you know what we should do is we should build a giant case, a giant tower case with slots. But not those kinds of slots. Those don't work. But these other kinds of slots that very few people use, but some people use. No, you would never do that. But we are here where they already built that.

Right. And that was the result of the thing that generated that roundtable. And so that's why we're here. It's really interesting. But, yeah, you are right. was the result of the thing that generated that round table and so that's why we're here uh it's really interesting but yeah you are right it's a little like it's like the shoreline moved or a river changed course and and the mac pro ended up kind of beached and your choices there are that you either find the water again i'm just full of metaphors today or you uh or or you're you're dead on the side of the on the side of the road.

I don't know. I mean, this is the thing, is that as the profile of the platform changes, the products change, and the edge case products are the ones that are most likely to die. I mean, the iMac Pro also, same story, right? Like the iMac Pro was a new edge case,

and then they went back to the old edge case, and it died. It wasn't needed, right? case and it died it wasn't needed right the iMac Pro just wasn't needed after they ended up reassessing the course again and so right right honestly kind of like this current Mac Pro feels like the iMac Pro right where it's like the iMac Pro was born out of a decision but then they went back on it and then they made the mac pro but now they've kind of gone back on that because realistically for even more people it's just not a machine that's needed anymore because everything else is so powerful exactly a couple of other little bits of follow-up before we move on uh we spoke about this a number of weeks ago but it's been

made official lionel messi has efficiently joined the interMiami MLS team on a three-year deal. His first game will be broadcast on Apple TV Plus with the MLS pass thing on Friday, July 21st. That's this Friday. Quote, Apple and MLS production have committed to showing Messi's games with premium quality broadcasts. Coverage of his games will feature 18 camera angles,

Steadicam, super slow-mo, drone shots, and more to enhance the experience for viewers. That comes from 9to5Mac. I love that idea of like, they have all this opportunity, but for Messi, they're going to throw everything at it from a quality perspective. Those are going to be their A-level broadcast.

Coverage of his games will also feature Inter-Miami. Yeah, Lionel Messi and Inter-Miami will be playing. Yes, and Friends. I really wonder what it's going to look like. What the quality of play will end up looking like. Well, yeah, that's right. I'm curious about what the viewership will be. Will there be a broader international audience for these matches

because it's messy and people want to see messy? I'll tell you this. I would imagine that in Argentina, they're going to do a lot of Apple TV+. But yeah, we'll see. I feel like at least for these first couple of games, it would be a bit higher, right?

Like I feel like there might be some looky-loos. Oh, for sure, for sure. No, I think Messi will bring an audience. I think the numbers will be higher than ever on an ongoing basis too. But yeah, there'll be a bump at the beginning.

I'm actually kind of surprised that they're not doing a free game. Right? That like one of these isn't. Yeah, oh, interesting. Right? One of these isn't the free game, like his first one.

I have no doubt that there will be free messy games because I know like they do put some games for free. It just surprised me that they didn't just go all in and make this like a taster match. Follow up for you, specifically, Jason Snow, maybe any other audience that care. Apple's Q3 earnings

will be broadcast on August 3rd. That's when the call will be. I'm on an airplane during that. I don't know what I'm going to do. Right. Got to figure that one out. Do you want me to sub in? Make the worst transcript in history? i don't know what i'm gonna do right gotta figure that one out do you want me to sub in make the worst transcript in history i don't um so i'm trying to figure out if i can change my plane or or what can you imagine how many things would have to go wrong before you

would ask me to do that like how how badly could it get you know, before we sub Mike in to do the transcript? I think your premise has one problem, which is it's actually very easy for me to just say, sorry, everybody, no transcript this time. Yeah. And you would fall below that. I fall below that. Yeah, I fall below it not happening. That's what I'm saying. Something has to go wrong such such a mistake that i decide somehow to do it and not just not do it which would be a big step

so yeah exactly right and you'll be happy about this one gm dealers are reportedly very unhappy about the idea of gm dropping car play in favor of their own system which we spoke about a month or so ago there's a quote from uh dealer there is an infinite number of ways that this could go bad which is a beautiful quote there's a detroit free press story which i can't read because it's paywalled for subscribers only but uh chance miller of nine to five mac hacked the det Free Press or something. Maybe just paid. I don't know. Maybe just paid.

You know, what I've discovered, a little side note, what I've discovered, because I subscribe to a really nice newsletter called The California Sun for people who are in California. It's really great. It's by a guy who used to do the New York Times California Letter. And it's a substack, basically. It's not a substack, but it's a subscription newsletter that summarizes sort of the news

of the day from California with a lot of links. And what I've discovered is lots of newspapers have syndication deals. So he does a lot of links that are like to msn.com or yahoo or aol.com, believe it or not, to these places that like republish their articles, not behind a paywall. So that's a pro. First off, if you're in California, check out The California Sun. I think it's californiasun.co. And also, that's a thing you could always try, and I'm sure is part of Chance's wheelhouse, too, which is you might not be able to get that Detroit Free Press story from the Detroit Free Press,

but what if it's also on MSN or something? And then you can find it there. Anyway, I just, CarPlay's not broken, why fix it? Is the great quote. The risk of failure is very high. I don't even know the name of this new system, much less what benefits our customers can expect. Nobody has had any communication from GM.

The new system just can't work. It has to be the best in the market it's got to be better than carplay good luck good luck yeah because it it falls down at the first hurdle which is how you connect your phone to it like that's the first thing and that but there isn't really a way to do it so it's just like disaster um somebody wrote in a while ago when we were talking about apple news like i don't know if this is the thing with the detroit free press but as a thing like there a lot of uh publications are in apple news if you have apple news it can be a way to get around like the paywall for the one article that

you want to read like have a search for in apple news just thought i also wanted to do a quick piece of follow-out just because I'm very impressed by this Underscore David Smith is doing just a superb job right now sharing what he is working on for Widget Smith in VisionOS he's been making some blog posts about this and his design notes series also sharing things on Mastodon too I just want to say if you are a developer

working on VisionOS and you're not following what Underscore is doing right now, I think you should because he's being very open about the processes that he's taking. And I'm also learning some interesting stuff myself

about what this system is capable of and what it isn't. There are a lot of people sharing these things right now, but Underscore is not only a great communicator but he is also building one of the most popular apps that exist uh like a version of that for this and so i think it makes him like very uh specifically targeted and focused and so i think it's really interesting to see what he's up to the weather app concept that he put together is beautiful too it's getting me very excited even more excited for using vision

os apps and i'm really curious about this thing that you put in our show notes which said do you want to just do it right i don't want to spoil it. You just want to tell people what it is. Sure. So here, very exciting thing. It's a first for the Upgrade podcast. I hope that it goes well. We just do a lot of these going forward. I'm sure it's going to be a regular recurring segment. It's coming into college football season pretty soon. On September 9th at 7.30 p.m. Pacific time, the California Golden Bears, my team, will be hosting the Auburn Tigers, Tim Cook's favorite football team, Auburn, coming to Berkeley to Memorial

Stadium, historic Memorial Stadium, for an inter-conference battle between the SEC and the Pac-12, which is going to be 10 soon. Anyway, we don't talk about that. Two illustrious universities, one more illustrious than the other. Two illustrious football teams, one vastly more illustrious than the other. Playing a game in the evening in California on probably a warm late summer Saturday night in Berkeley. Watch the sun go down literally from the stadium. You can watch the sun go down behind the Golden Gate Bridge across the bay and watch a college football game. Now, I am a season ticket holder of Cal football and have been for many years. And before I had those tickets, my dad had those tickets.

So they've been in the family since the 60s, believe it or not. It is a family tradition. I have four tickets. tradition. I have four tickets. Currently, those tickets are being used by myself, my wife, and my good friend, Philip Michaels, who chips in for a ticket because he, I got, yes, I took, he's such a good friend that I got him to be a fan of a bad football team. Wow, what a buddy. Anyway, what I'm saying is we always have an extra ticket. And so sometimes Phil won't come and we'll bring a couple friends of ours, or we'll just invite one person, Phil will bring a friend and we would just we just work it out but I would like to now officially say to Tim Cook I have an extra ticket for September 9th for Auburn against Cal did you know that

Auburn is coming to the Bay Area your home your beloved football team they are and I got you covered I've got a ticket. And now, Tim, I know you've got some questions about this. One of your questions is going to be, is this in like a luxurious box where I'm separated from the masses? And the answer is no. Unfortunately, it's not. Those are available, I'm sure. And you could go down that route if you really want to, if you really want to be bothered? Is it in the super central 50-yard line donors section where you have to pay tens of thousands of dollars for the right to pay thousands of dollars for a seat, and you have your own concession area and all of that? Sadly, no.

We used to sit over there before they redid the stadium and made those the super expensive seats, but these seats aren't those. Is it a bad ticket? Do I sit in a bad location? I don't think so. It's actually very nice. We're kind of at the five yard line on the north end, which is the good place to be. We're on the alumni side, so you're not going to have to deal. Well, it's a night game, so you won't have to be in the sun at all because the sun will already be going down at that point. But anyway, it's a beautiful place to sit. We're about 20 rows back. Great view of the North End Zone when the excitement is going on there. And we got the ticket. And Tim, now I know there's one other thing you're asking me, which is, Jason, what does it cost? And the answer is the ticket is free.

You would be my guest. You can come sit with us, with me and Lauren and Phil, and we'll watch a game. It's Pac-12 After Dark. It'll be on, I think, ESPN probably. And we'll have a good time. And you know what? If you feel bad about not being able to compensate me for the cost of the ticket, that's fine. Buy me a hot dog or something at the game. It's fine. We'll work it out. If you really want to do that, buy me a Coke and a hot dog and we'll call it even. But it's not really necessary. It's all fine. So anyway, open invitation, Tim. get in touch. Cal Auburn, looking forward to it. It's bench seating, but it's generous enough that we can all squeeze in there and watch your Auburn Tigers probably dismantle my Cal Bears. And it'll be a lot of fun. I'll teach you some of the Cal cheers. You

can teach me some of the Auburn cheers. So anyway open invitation tim gonna be a beautiful night looking forward to seeing you there if tim says yes but only if you wear a red shirt would you do it it's a red i don't think red is an auburn color no but isn't the whole thing about take off the red shirt yeah oh no you're right i mean why would he do that i that would be because it's like a that would be cruel yeah but it's like a challenge you know like i'll do it but only if this. I'll wear an orange shirt. I won't wear a red shirt, but orange for the Auburn Tigers. I would do that, but I would prefer to wear navy.

You'd wear an orange shirt. Navy, because navy is in the colors of both teams. Anyway, Tim, call me. Or have your people call me. It's fine. Yeah, of course. That's also okay. We'll accept people.

Also, there's an electronic. Now, you're also saying to yourself, Tim, but Jason don't, you know, Jason lives in the North Bay. I live in the South Bay. I don't really want to like schlep around and we're going to mail a ticket in the mail. Tim, I got great news for you. Computers are the future. You may have heard of them. And perhaps you've heard of them.

And there is a newfangled digital ticket system involving the internet that lets me check a box on one of my tickets and transfer it to a friend. So if you give me your email address or your phone number, then you can receive that ticket and place it in your Apple wallet. Put it on your watch. That'll work. And then we can meet at the seats.

I don't have to give you the ticket in advance. We don't have to meet at the Bear Statue outside the stadium. We can actually just meet in the seats because you'll have my ticket. So anyway, have your people call my people, and by which, my people, I mean me. This episode is brought to you by Notion. Project management tools are supposed to help you move faster and stay organized. If you're still jumping between 50 tabs just to do your job, then maybe you haven't found the right tool yet. Nothing will slow you down like using the wrong tools to get things done.

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And in honor of World Emoji Day that happened yesterday, as you're listening to this, it's I guess World Emoji Week now. I thought that we could look at our frequently used emoji as displayed in the keyboard inside of iOS.

Can we name this segment? Can we call it something? We can call it whatever you want. All right. Well, our friend Jeremy Burge is the founder of Emojipedia, although he's no longer involved. So why don't we call it The Jeremys?

I don't like that. Oh. That one doesn't work for me, but we can workshop it. All right. We can call it the worldies. How about the burgies? The burgies.

There you go. The burgies. I have links in the show notes to my and your most frequently used emoji. Thought we could take a look at them, maybe make some comments about them. Do you want to take a look at mine? Tell me what you think. If you've got any questions for me about some of the emoji that I use as represented by the iOS keyboard. Sure. Sure. I have some problems with this, but I'll deal with mine. If you feel that

this is a decent representative sample, we'll go with it. I would say yeah. Okay. It's enough, anyway. Okay. What do you think of mine? Oh, I thought you were going to take me through it. I like it.

There are some that surprise me. I am surprised by the steaming pie. Yes. And... Actually, other than that i think this is a pretty good list uh there's the kebabs i guess i'm a little surprised by that but otherwise i think this is a i understand these emotions i understand why you would i think i think the fact that you have the microphone emoji is the most on brand yes of all the kebab thing that i think you're seeing this is one of those like uh it's like it's a cultural emoji from back in the original days of emoji this is actually uh called dango which is a japanese treat of sticky

rice balls and the reason that i'm on a skewer yeah and the reason that i have this is we are currently decorating our home and it just so happens that in our we're doing like a few different colors in our main area because like our downstairs area is like a very large open plan area but it's split into some like zones and we are actually using pink cream and green and so our downstairs area of the house is the dango area now basically that's why that is there because me and adina are making that reference to each other there are some just emojis that i love in here so obviously top right is the it's called heart decoration the white heart and the purple box that is the heart that i have chosen to use because nobody really uses it, so I use it.

We have the hot face emoji, which I just think is fantastic in tons of different use cases. It's one of the greats. The salute emoji, which I have pledged my allegiance to. Salute emoji is top-tier emoji, as is the dotted line emoji face thing. That's the Homer retreating back into the hedge emoji, right? It's like, I'm not even here right now.

Another just excellent, excellent emoji. Yeah, so I have a lot of emojis that I enjoy here. I think this is a pretty good representation. I use eyes a lot. I use the love heart face one a lot. I use the skull a lot. I think this is a pretty good representation of the emoji that a lot. I use the love heart face one a lot. I use the skull a lot. I think this is a pretty good representation of the emoji that I tend to use the most.

Do you have any you want to particularly praise as a great emoji? Underappreciated, maybe? I don't know. Ooh, an underappreciated one. I mean, you use, so I'll point out, you've got the smiling face with surrounded by hearts,

which I think of as an early mic embracing thing that is actually really nice which is the i am happy because i feel loved basically emoji and i think that's a really good expression to have in the emoji set and i think you've always used that really well of like this is a this is me feeling good about that i do i use that use that a lot. And I use raised hands a lot. That is like my, that's my universal thank you. I think it's better than the thumbs up. I don't really like thumbs up. It's like a thank you. I think raised hands is like a really good one. It's like, oh, you're so incredible.

That's kind of how I imagine it whenever I use it. Why the pie? Is that from when I was sending you all those pictures from New Zealand about meat pies and why America doesn't have meat pies? This is kind of like part of a pet name thing. So I'm not going to give all of the information there. All right. All right.

You just love hot pie from Game of Thrones. Pot pie. Chicken pot pie, as I call my life. No, hot pie. There's a character named Hot Pie on Game of Thrones. Hot Pie. I don't watch Game of Thrones, so I wouldn't know. Well, Hot Pie.

Just wait. When you ever do, you'll see Hot Pie and you'll of Thrones, so I wouldn't know. Well, Hot Pie. Just wait. When you ever do, you'll see Hot Pie and you'll be like, amazing. You see, I'm fine with it, you know? Because for me, I feel like all the big things have been spoiled

just because of the internet. And so it's just like, I'm not interested. You didn't know about Hot Pie? Do you know why I didn't? But I'm just going to go out on a limb and say it's probably not that important. Hmm, I don't know.

Hot Pie's kind of important. All right, let me take a look's kind of important. All right. Let me take a look at your emoji here. All right. So there's some... So here's the thing. First off...

You got another thing to say? I do. The place I send emoji the most is Slack on my Mac. And the second place is Slack

on my phone or my iPad. The emoji list that I've got in frequently used on my iPhone or my iPad. The emoji list that I've got. In frequently used. On my iPhone and my iPad. Are so bizarre. Because it's full of emoji.

I don't recall ever sending. And I think it's because I don't send enough of them. Often enough. Like the one that I sent you. Has the New Zealand flag. And a Kiwi. And an airplane. And a suitcase because those are emoji

I sent in February when I was in New Zealand. And they're still on the frequently. I mean, you've been talking about Kiwis a lot recently still. So, you know, like for as much, you know. Not via emoji. Is my phone hearing words I say in public

and then turning them into emoji and putting them on the list? I don't know what that is. So I can see some Jason Snell classics in here immediately. Oh, for sure. For sure. Right. For sure.

My preferred heart is the blue heart because the red heart feels too forward. Yep. I do have the red heart in there. My wife gets the red heart. Nobody else gets the red heart. Good stuff. Good stuff. Rest of the world gets the blue heart.

I like the blue heart. I see other people using the blue heart and i'm like yeah i see you that's red heart for loved ones shrugging man yeah shrugging man you shrugging man a lot i do well that's my that's how i that's how i react to the world mike is like okay i don't know all right. Adequate depiction of mental state. I do that a lot of like, I don't know why this happened. Do the wink a lot. I enjoy the shush emoji because you often are ironically, but I do enjoy that. Sometimes the detective is on here because there's that,

like I'm searching for clues. It's usually again, ironically where somebody. I like detective detective is a really really good emoji i use that pretty versatile too right um like sometimes we'll get it we'll get a conspiracy email and i will use the detective emoji i'm like oh they've got figured out now one that i'm intrigued by is actually the one below the detective emoji which is the big smiling face of the teeth and the tiny round eyes yes that one

is weird looking to me that emoji i don't like that emoji very much it's very straightforward honestly i think that's the one i use with my mom because it's like it's very clear my mom by the way just as a side note my mom does not use the standard smiley emojis at all she uses the cat set oh the worst set it's not my favorite but she is all of the cat set all of them are cat emojis i don't like the smiley cat and the hard eye cat she uses all those i don't use those but yeah no cat set is bad like i i don't like that one i honestly this is one of those things like why is it there like why do we need that i definitely share the rolling eyes emoji with you a lot yes um i mean the wink emoji is probably the one i use the most because

i try to use that to to get like some tone of voice across of like yeah yeah it's a good one i mean that's what's so great about emoji in general right it's like how they can help you communicate in text just like way more effectively and because it can help you convey a tone that you otherwise might not be exactly exactly which is why i use the wink emoji a lot uh upside down smiling face emoji i use that that that uh classic that came from uh i i noticed uh our friend joe rosensteel using that a lot and i just i really love it because it's the right it, right? I don't even know how to describe it. I actually used it the other day. Lauren and I were texting and there was like, how do you even express this? And I just sent back the upside down. She's like, yeah, that's it. Which is like, oh, brother, right? It's a frown, but it's also a like, I'm trying to smile through it, but it's not working. It's another very versatile one, I think. Like it has a lot of potential uses,

which I think those are the best emoji really when you can kind of take them and turn them into something. It's like that's simply for salute. I feel like salute is very versatile. I do have some questions about a couple of emoji. All right, sure, go ahead. Saxophone. I have no memory of sending the saxophone emoji You have some questions about a couple of emoji. All right, sure. Go ahead. Saxophone. I,

I have no memory of sending the saxophone emoji to anyone at any point. I'm sure if I did, it was in the context of nonstop bangers involving sax solos, probably Baker street. Yep. One of the, right. It's nonstop bangers.

Just one of the old, or, or other, or it was with Jamie and it's some other yacht, yacht rock related, uh, sax solo. But again,

like the New Zealand stuff, I probably sent it once like three months ago and it's in my frequently used because I don't frequently use this. I want to say I have a thumbs up. I use that a lot. I use the eyes a lot. In fact, when I first logged into discord before we're about to stream live, I put the eyes in the discord as like we're waking first log into Discord before we're about to stream live, I put the eyes in the Discord

as like we're waking up and paying attention. We're about to be live. And the curling stone is one that I get a lot of use out of. Of course. I actually do that. And there's an emoji for it, which is pretty awesome, right?

It's a great emoji too. The sport that you can't miss it. You know what it is. The curling stone. It's right there. It's a really, really good emoji. But I also want to know the poop emoji. Do you use the poop? I hate the poop emoji. it you know what it is the curling stone it's right there it's a really really good emoji but i also want to know the poop emoji do you use the poop i hate the poop emoji i hate that i can i i

can tell you why because it's in the same row as the new zealand uh flag and the kiwi okay we were having drinks at a restaurant in christ church And the water bottle that they brought us, so they brought basically an old gin bottle, I think it is, full of water and two glasses for our water. Plus we were having beers. And it was silent pool gin, but somebody had rubbed the letters off of it. So it said silent poo. And I took a picture of it and then I captioned it with the poop emoji because it was the silent poo. Because I thought it was good, wholesome fun. Good, wholesome fun.

Good, wholesome fun. The poop emoji in that context, but I don't use the poop emoji either. There's a salute emoji in there. I'm starting to use the salute emoji a little bit more because I have learned about its uses from you and Steven and Federico. And now I can see the context of the salute emoji. But you also provided another image. Slack. Yes. And I think Slack does it that's frequently used in the Slack, not by you.

Because I don't use the troll emoji in the relay Slack, but Casey List does. And so the troll emoji is in there. However, what I will say is I want to point out, so I use emoji in Slack a lot and that's my primary use. And also I'm one of the people in the world, other than Jeremy Burge, who has commissioned emoji art. So two of my favorite emoji that I use in Slack

are the Skeletor emoji, which there's a cartoon Skeletor emoji and now there's an Apple-style photorealistic Skeletor emoji. I'd say the Skeletor emoji is often used like the upside-down smiling face emoji by me. And then there's the reference acknowledged emoji which used to be a picture of tony cindylar our friend who uh says reference acknowledged and has popularized it

among many people i know but also now i commissioned an emoji of tony cindylar uh as as an emoji pointing in order to acknowledge your your very clever reference that you made so those i also use a lot all three of those emoji are in the relay for members discord too they are and people use them i hate yes the uh the ios skeletal one it is very upsetting to me i find it very upsetting it is disturbing yes but the cute skeletoror is also available. That is fantastic. That is a great one. But the one that actually looks like a real skull inside a hood? It's basically the skull emoji, except yellow and in the purple hood to be extra.

It's Skeletor. I think it's the yellow that freaks me out, to be honest. Well, yeah. I mean, it's Skeletor. I love it, though, because I believe those were done by the artist. It was actually referred to me by Jeremy, who's done art for Emojipedia. And I was like, I just want to do custom commissions of emojis. And then the artist was like, this is awesome. Let's do it. And so now Tony Sindelar has his own emoji of himself, making the finger reference acknowledged. And it's great. there are a few others in here obviously in slack especially because they shorten it to ta-da the party popper emoji is very successful

which is great somebody's celebrating something you throw that in there as an emoji reaction i use that it's going to be great i do use the skull emoji sometimes it really just sort of means uh either i'm dead or uh this will kill me one those, I use the scream emoji a lot in both, in both cases. That's the, uh, whether it's seriously, oh my goodness, or it's an actual, like, uh, uh, this is what makes me want to scream. I throw that in there a lot too. Those are good. And I want to point out that I have the lion emoji in here. I mostly, there are two uses of the lion emoji recently. One of them is that we just did a total party kill that won't, you know, won't come out as is our tradition for several years. But we just played an adventure where I turned into a lion and menaced a bunch of casino goers, which is great.

So while we were doing that adventure, there was a lot of lion emojis going around. And the other thing is that certain times Stephen Hackett looks like a lion and we use it to refer to Stephen Hackett. Very fair. When he's in a certain hair configuration, he's very lion-y and he looks just like that emoji. I think he's aiming towards that right now, which I'm excited about. get used a lot and i love it and i also use it in very specific context to suggest frustration or somebody being monstrous is the japanese goblin is that right no no it's the japanese ogre or just ogre depending on what set you're in it is this it's like a devil it's like a red face horrifying red face monster also horrifying to you.

But it's good though. Yeah. I don't like the one in Discord is bad. Like a lot of them are. The one in Apple set is so good. It's just this big face and he's like, in a sort of evil menacing way, but also fun. I love that emoji so much.

And when the moment comes to use ogre i am there right like i know the instant somebody says something i'm like it's over time right like i know the exact feeling about this so i gotta say i'm on the website right now looking at this and there are there are some here that i really like and i gotta say the microsoft teams one is And I've got to say the Microsoft Teams one is excellent. It's like animated on the Emojipedia website and it is actually ha-ha-harring. It's great.

I love the new Microsoft style of this like cartoony. Like I really like the new emoji that Microsoft has been working on. I think it's really, really cool looking. I know it's stylized a lot. I do not appreciate the wackification, the goofinesses of the Microsoft Teams emoji of the ogre. The ogre is meant to be a little more menacing, I think. A little more like he's like, am I in on the joke with the ogre or is he going to eat me?

And that's what the Apple one conveys. Microsoft Teams is more like he's a rubber toy of an ogre or is he going to eat me? And that's what the Apple one conveys. Microsoft Teams is more like he's a rubber toy of an ogre. But anyway, that's a favorite of mine that does not get used very much. I enjoy the ogre. Happy World Emoji Day.

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offering a free pair of Beats Solo 3 headphones for taking a qualified meeting. Just go to electric.ai slash upgrade. That is electric.ai slash upgrade. Go there right now and get your free pair of Beats Solo 3 headphones today for scheduling a meeting. Thanks to Electric for their support of this show and RelayFM. We're back to the details, and this time in a public version. Public details. The public details. You've had a ton of coverage on Six Colors. I think you had an article for every single beta available,

plus, say, overarching platforms. Yeah, Dan and I wrote a lot of a lot of stories there too i appreciate you mentioning it on connected last week which i was listening to on my travels um that that you didn't just say mac stories you said in six colors too oh that's very nice well we did we wrote a lot of things about betas we did yeah because the public betas are out as of last week um the general public can just say, give me a beta. I'll have it now. You get it. Just like that. Your focus was mostly on macOS and iPadOS.

That's where you wrote your articles. Yeah, and I wrote half of the platform features articles too. Was this a year where it was easy to write about them? Were you having to struggle to find things to write about? Oh, no. No. In fact, I mean, just very much the idea that you write, because the way this works is Apple says they're coming out in July, but you don't know when. And you've got some idea that they usually do it this particular week, but you don't actually know.

And you spend time recovering from WWDC, and then you are like, I guess I should install the betas and live with them. And you start to live with them. And then you do that for a while and you say, hmm, it's now July and they're coming soon. I better start writing. And the beauty of it being the public beta cycle is you can write about the marquee features and then have a section at the end of your story that's like, and there's a bunch of other stuff to talk to you later and not cover it or not cover it in as much detail. So I got to all the features that I felt I had time to get to and energy to get to in depth. And then, you know, the rest of them, I, you know, I mentioned a lot of them in passing with maybe a few brief thoughts. And then I'm, you know, because I'm saving it.

I've got time over the summer to write a more full accounting of it because I will write a full review of everything in the fall when these things ship. But I did not feel like I was scraping. Like iPadOS, honestly, iPadOS I literally wrote the morning when we were waiting for the uh the public data to drop i just we were ready to go and i was sitting at my desk and i thought oh well i guess i should write the ipad os thing right now so that story didn't take me very long to write

at all and there's not a lot more than what's in that story um but that's okay like that one so that one was fairly easy because there's not a lot in there. Well, the iPadOS one is always complicated anyway, right? And it's why with Federico's huge review, usually iPadOS is just a chapter of the iOS review because everything that comes to iOS, by and large, comes to iPadOS. So there's a lot of features already in there, and then it's just about what is different.

And so really, by and large, I think most years, features already in there and then it's just about like what is different and so like really by and large i think most years ipad os is probably one of the easier ones to write about i think we're at the point now where what you're writing about with ipad os a lot of the time is the new ipad iteration of last year's iphone feature so those are unique to the ipad and in that they're not quite implemented the same way as they are on the iphone and you need to kind of like talk about why. And then in this case, there was some tweaks to stage manager that make it appreciably better that, um, I, uh, I got wrote about and I made a little video of the feature where there's, uh, so, so as people know, uh, or, or maybe do not know one of the frustrations that I had with stage manager and that many other stage

manager users had is that it was a finally an interface that lets you freely position windows on the iPad except not freely like why but why why would you do this and then not do it and so like you put a window somewhere and it goes oh I don't want the window there I want it over here a little bit and the one that bothered me was I like to have one window front and center and then sometimes I like it just have like one window over on the side. And it'd be like, oh, you've got two windows. You probably want them side by side. It's like, no, I don't. But in iPadOS 16, that was what they would do. They would just force them to be side by side. And I couldn't drag one into the middle and leave it there. New Stage Manager, the grid is much tighter. So even though you can't

exactly position windows it feels like you can it used to be you'd put it like i'll put it here and the in 16 the system would be like how about a little down into the left and now it feels like when you say i'll put it here it just stays there even if maybe it goes a little bit down into the left but only a teeny tiny bit like it's snapping to a grid but the grid is so small, so high density that it doesn't feel like it's moving your window, even if it is a little tiny bit. But the big thing is it is going to honor your choices. So I can work with a main window right in the center, which is where I'm writing and have like a single reference window that's like a PDF or a webpage off to my left, which is usually what I do.

And it keeps it there instead of saying, no, these should be side by side. Because mentally, I like writing in the center of my screen, not on one half of it. I just don't like working that way. If you can choose, everybody can choose differently. But in Stage Manager in 16, you couldn't choose. So that's all great. And then they did this other thing that's very funny, which is, and I know we've talked about this over the course of this whole debate about should there be windows on the iPad? One of the challenges that Apple has is they know that on the Mac, people lose windows. More novice and even intermediate users, they lose windows and they don't know how to find them. And Apple has built keyboard shortcuts and system features and trackpad gestures to show all your Windows

or show all the Windows in your particular app. And the fact is, people still lose Windows. Where'd that window go? And the answer is, it's behind other Windows, right? So you can't see it and out of sight, out of mind. So they're coming to implement windows on iPad and they're like, all right, we can't let them lose their windows. And so what we got with iPadOS 16 was this really heavy handed window management thing that was like, you can't even put a window in front of another window imbalanced because it's like, we're cleaning all that stuff up. The window police were really on patrol in iPadOS 16. But part of the reason for that is this idea that they didn't want this, especially since they don't have like gestures for this or a window menu in the menu bar, because there's not a menu bar, to like get people out of the lost window problem. out of the lost window problem. So in iPadOS 17, what happens if you click on a window and bring it to the front and it completely covers another window? The answer is the back window peeks out

the side of the window, like it's leaning to the side going, hey, I'm back here. And it just sticks out just a little tiny bit, but it sticks out and there's an animation and everything. It's, I think it's kind of adorable. Also, I think it's a very clever, carefully considered solution. I also discovered that then if you grab the wind, the big window and move it around, uh, the little, uh, the little buddy window in the background will, uh, will move along with the window and occasionally will like pop to the other side and then pop back or pop to, it's like, I'm over here. No, I'm over here now.

Oh, now I'm back over here. And it will chase your window around the screen, but it's always visible because it doesn't want you to lose it once you know that you left a window behind this window. I like it. It's really good. And as a result,

Stage Manager is vastly more usable than it would have been before the only the the real um last frontier that they need is to run it without relying on the external screen to have a true kind of lid closed mode where you don't have to keep going back to the main because even if you run it in fake lid closed mode which i know feder Federico does, where you say, hey, if I cover the screen with the smart cover, don't lock the display. There are times when the system is like, you need to go use the iPad screen now if you're on an external display. Just you can't escape it. And they need to address that because I think that that would help a lot.

But yeah, otherwise it's a pretty good feature. So that was what I spent. they need to address that because I think that that would help a lot, but, but yeah, it's, um, otherwise it's pretty good feature. So that was what I spent. Uh, I spent a lot of time with iPadOS 17 and then I sort of like on the morning of, on July 12th, I just sort of let it all, let it all pour out.

Also, a lot of the features that you, you say as being in the iOS public beta, we this year decided to just do a story about the platform pitch features that are on iOS and iPadOS and MacOS. And so that took actually some of the content out of the iOS story and put it in that separate story. Like stickers, check-in, that kind of stuff, right? Notes, those kinds of features moved. Yeah, the password sharing, PDF, yeah, the stickers, all of that stuff is in there.

The autocorrect, that stuff. Was there any, aside from the things you mentioned, any other favorite features across the betas that you've tried that are really calling out to you, things that you're really enjoying or things that you see potential for upon full developer adoption? Well, I like the widgets a lot. I have not seen enough widget interactivity to make a decision about that yeah i know there are some betas out there but like i'm it it seems awfully promising

to have interactive widgets i've also seen like videos from developers right which i think yes two of like some really really interesting stuff that people are building. Yeah. Well, imagine a calendar widget that instead of having a list actually had like seven days and you could tap on any of the days to see what was happening on that day all without launching your calendar app. That would be a good feature, right? That is a sort of like base level productivity feature. Or a lot of these, like my Fantastical widget, a lot of these widgets, weather widgets weather widgets have this um you know they have like 10 different widget styles it's like oh you could show this or you could show this or you could show this and i keep thinking carrot weather is like this too it's like maybe imagine this a widget you tap that had some buttons on a forecast and it shows that let you toggle yeah between hourly daily, for example, right?

Oh, that's nice. Nice idea, right? Rather than needing a stack. Not to have to have separate ones. Right. A stack with the different widgets in it. Yeah. Exactly.

So I think that stuff is good. My PDF tests were pretty successful. I think that that's going to be, again, incredibly boring feature. It is a really boring feature until you need it, right? And then it's going to be, again, incredibly boring feature. It is a really boring feature until you need it, right? And then it's going to be great. And then somebody emails you a PDF and you're like, or you got a paper form you're supposed to email back and you're like,

um, the answer is you take a picture of it and then it autofills it for you. That's so, it's so great. So there's a lot of, I mean, there's a lot of little stuff. This is the story of these OS releases. I kind of love it. I kind of love I mean, there's a lot of little stuff. This is the story of these OS releases. I kind of love it. I kind of love it.

That there are not like, here's a huge earth shattering feature that's going everywhere and it's going to change your life forever. That's not this release, but there's a lot of little stuff, including a bunch of stuff that we've like wanted for a year or two, or maybe even a few years and, and other like quality of life improvement things that I've been very impressed by. So like, whether it's the camera controls and being able to like take,

take your studio display camera and zoom it in a little bit and pan it a little bit and say, this is where I want it, which you couldn't do before. And I would talk about doing video controls in the OS. And I got this chorus of people every time I would talk about it, who'd be like, Apple's never going to do that. Nobody, real people don't want video controls. And it's like, you know, I mean, they were saying that because Apple didn't offer it. And so there are always people who are rushing to explain why

Apple didn't do something. Apple did it. Apple did it. Apple said, are always people who are rushing to explain why Apple didn't do something. Apple did it. Apple did it. Apple said, you know what? Video camera controls are a good idea. And they implemented it. And they're pretty nice. The autocorrect that they did, it's pretty nice. The password sharing is pretty good. There's a bunch of that little stuff that is throughout that I like i like the the it's talking about boring things um as somebody with a server in my house uh the screen sharing app which used to be interfaceless essentially you would click on share screen in the finder on a computer and it would launch the screen sharing app but it was kind of like had no interface it's got like an interface now and they added this like local network high performance mode where you can theoretically

like edit video via screen sharing and edit audio via screen sharing which kind of works in my testing but still um like screen sharing like who was who was lining up with the torches and the pitchforks being like, give us screen-sharing. And yet somebody at Apple was like, you know what? We can make screen-sharing a lot better. Let's do that this time. Yeah. And they did.

It's re it's so much better. It's really good. So, you know, it's that kind of release where you may not look at the marketing page and go, oh, you know, this is amazing, right? You may be like, whatever, I don't care. But I think for a lot of this stuff, you're going to start using it. And there will undoubtedly be one, two, three, four things that hit exactly where you live, where, you know, it doesn't have to be the most earth shattering feature in the world. But if you use screen sharing, or if you get frustrated by your webcam, not being pointed

quite right, like all of these little things, you will be happy. Also, I want to mention, and this is something that podcasts talk about a lot, Apple podcasts, especially about like, oh, you know, Apple software that doesn't have the attention to detail it used to it isn't as whimsical as it used to be i noticed several places in this os where they made decisions the little window peeking out out you know from behind other windows is one of them where they were these things that were a little bit felt a little whimsical and also were nice touches that were probably unnecessary but were just pleasant and like somebody did the extra work to make them pleasant one of the example i have of that is the stickers you know like the the stickers in ios the fact that you

can make them holographic or bubble stickers or you know like that's like a nice little extra thing that wasn't needed but i love that it's there not necessary well so here's here's the one that i think is the best representation of this in mac os sonoma they're unifying um optionally unifying screensaver wallpaper and lock screen and first off i love this because I have like a custom wallpaper and the lock screen was always the generic OS lock screen. And I hate it. It's like, why are you using my wallpaper for the lock screen? It does now. Use the wallpaper for the lock screen.

It's great. But the screensaver thing. So the story was like, oh, they brought the aerial screensavers from Apple TV to macOS. Isn't that nice? Yes, that's nice. But the way they did it is they organized it in a different way where you can pick Hawaii or whatever. You can pick specific ones. You don't have to

just be like all nature. And there's a checkbox that says use this as my wallpaper because Apple has decided that every frame of these 4K videos is so beautiful that you could use it as your wallpaper, which is funny, but I think probably accurate. That's pretty incredible. It's still kind of funny that they feel that way they

have that confidence but the thing that blows me away and this is the unnecessary thing is if you're using a screensaver as your wallpaper the screensaver is going and you unlock your mac what you would expect i think as a computer user is that when you unlock your Mac, either it would stop immediately and that would be your background or it would flicker from your, from your video that was playing to a chosen frame from it. Neither of those things happen. Instead, when you unlock from the screensaver, your interface comes up. The wallpaper is still playing on the desktop, and it slows to a halt. It is an effect that is subtle, but it's delightful, and it's completely unnecessary. Absolutely unnecessary, but so fantastic.

Right? And that's one of the reasons we love the stuff that they make, is they make these choices where it's like, why even put the energy on that? Oh, because it's just nice. That's why. And I think it serves, I mean, people can maybe, there's a take out there, I'm sure, that's like, this is the stuff we were missing before. And it's great that it's back and by a grumpy person or, or, or the more positive way would be like, these, this is the kind of stuff that makes us nod and be like, oh, that's Apple. And so, you know, depending on how you're feeling about Apple today, you might be like, ah, more of this, please. Or you might be like, yep, that's what they do. But either way, like I just was taken aback by how completely unnecessary it was.

And yet it's delightful. And like that to me is look, not every feature can be like that, but I think that's a quintessentially Apple moment of like saying, we need to take time to give this the proper fit and finish and saying, well, when they unlock, it'll just jump to a key frame or when we unlock, we'll just stop it. Obviously at some point, somebody looked at that behavior and said, it's unpleasant. What can we do to make this nicer? And then somebody else or many people else came up with the idea of what if we wait momentarily and then slow the video

and it's like it eases to a stop and then you're hovering in that one frame and that's your background. It's just delightful. So I think that's representative. I think these OS updates are all really good. They're very gentle. They're not particularly disruptive. I guess that brings us to the big question, right? Which is should anybody install them? I've kind of come around on this, which is Apple calls it a public beta. So as far as I'm concerned, Apple thinks it's fine for you to install them. You know, due diligence, you should probably check and see that some app that you're relying on does not break under the beta before you use it. Like if you're going to lose your job, if you can't use some app that you're relying on does not break under the beta before you use it. Like if you're going to lose your job, if you can't use this app and you install the beta and

you can't use that app, you should check, right? Check, check. Like for us, it's audio hijack. And that's why I have a second computer now so that I can, for the summer, use audio hijack on computer number two while I'm using the beta on computer number one. So that's my due diligence there. But I am not comfortable warning people away from these betas like I used to because one, I've been using them for a few weeks. They're fine. Maybe the mobile devices drain battery a little bit faster. Maybe not. Some of that is probably just the update to the beta. Over time, I found my battery life is fine. Um, I don't think it's worse, but your mileage may vary, but you know, Apple, I know it's called a beta, but like it's a

public beta. Apple makes these for the public. So if you want to go ahead, as long as you've checked and made sure that whatever app you rely on, if you've got one, uh, doesn't completely break. And there's a small list of the ones that do um yeah out there you can find it but other than that like sure i mean if you want to get access to this stuff look that's why they make a public beta you're the public go forth in beta can i give you some of that can i give you some of my thoughts having used iOS for the last week? Yes, please. So I adore the new widgets that they brought in with the interactivity, even just the ones that Apple has made.

Like the home widget absolutely 100% fixes the complaints that we have with the control center toggles. They don't randomly change, right? You can have a recommended one one or you can actually specifically say what you want to be in each widget so you could have multiple widgets for different rooms or even like for whatever you could even have it for like me i could have different widgets for the studio and for home and they're not going to change on me all right i'm gonna i going to footnote this and say I tried this out. I put my number one used home item in a widget. It's my living room lights. And what I do is I set the brightness and dimness of them. Doesn't work. Okay.

Widget wants to tap it on and off. And I should file a feedback about this. What you could do is make a scene well yeah but like tap and hold i get it that like that that gesture is there to edit the you know edit the widget so you can't do that but like i want the at least the ability to tap on the thing and have it bring up the slider or or bring up some presets or something, but because, because on off is not what I need. I need adjust brightness. I need the slider. So I would,

yes, I would have to create some scenes with it at different things. Clunky, but we'll do the job again. Okay. I appreciate the workaround. Doesn't change my point, which is Apple should solve this.

There should be a better way to do this. You should not be able to put a home item in a widget and say, oh, you wanted it to dim? No, you can't. Like, they should solve that. Solve that problem, Apple. But I like the on and off anyway, because that's mostly what I'm doing. But I agree. Like, if I was wanting to do that, it would be annoying.

I love the shortcuts ones. I love that you can have two actions on the little widget now, right? Like, the smallest one. Little widget's got two actions fantastic little widgie has grown up so much so much so proud gone to school now and a little bit yeah yeah little widgie goes to college i love it standby is so much better than i thought it was going to be i love it i now have magsafe docs i bought the studio neat magsafe. I have them in the studio here. Yes, it is frustrating that I have to take my MagSafe pop socket off, but it's actually, the feature is worth it.

Like, I actually really like the, I like the main views. So the one where you can set up widgets and then the photos one. I think they're both fantastic. They're configurable. I have an app that works in this. So Timery has standby widgets awesome like right now i'm looking at my my phone and it's telling me that i have a timer set for upgrade and how long it's been on the left and then on the right it's going between a clock that i like a clock face that i like it's a stack of also some like photos like an album of my choice and then sometimes i can swipe over if i want to and i can

see um the photos screen i guess which goes between featured images you can see nature cities and people and it just like gently changes and i find it very delightful while i'm recording to just have this little photo frame going. So I think standby is fantastic. I like it. I do have some complaints. One of my complaints is that in that one view where you've got the clock, they only have clocks with hands and they don't have digital time.

There's another view that's got digital time. But if you want to have the time- In the square, in the little square one in the widget, with another one with a widget, you can't do that. You only can have clock faces with hands. And it doesn't make any sense to me because in that view,

I'm often not close enough to properly parse the hands. I just want a number there. And the number is in the other view, but not in that view. The big one. And what I really want to do is and the number is in the other view but not in that view and what i really want to do is put the time and a widget together and it won't let me so again i should file a feedback well also there will be many widgets that will be able to give you clocks

right oh i'm sure yes i'm sure but again like they should have the option they should have the option there are multiple clocks with hands like nine. Like nine different ones. And yet no numbers. Come on. No, that's a good point. That's a really good point. I can tell time, but sometimes I just want the numbers. It's far away. I want to see the number.

And a widget. The share sheet is horrifically broken for me, which is pretty funny. Most of the time, I only see share extensions for airdrop messages, mail, news, and books. I don't know why those ones specifically notes is the one i'm looking for which is not showing up anymore so i can't add things very easily to my show notes and also shortcuts does a really bad job of appending to notes so like this isn't great but i know it will come back uh yeah it just is what it is i've seen some weirdness in there too not quite

that weird but like i've definitely seen some weirdness in there the funny thing for me jason is it it it has gotten worse like it was fine at the start like i love these bugs where it's like it starts out and there's no problem but then as you're using the beta it's just like and no changes happen to the beta things just stop working and it's who knows why i i've noticed that airdrop is weird, right? Like airdrop, you tap it and I've noticed that there's this sort of like, I can't find anything. And you're like, work it out.

And then it goes, oh, oh, right. There's a computer right next to me. I'm like, yeah, you got it. You got there. And I don't know why that is just a very weird delay. Although I was thinking, Mike, and this is something I don't think we've talked about. Just, I'm going to mention it here. delay. Although I was thinking, Mike, and this is something I don't think we've talked about,

just I'm going to mention it here. You know that the new feature where you can like tap to or bring one phone next to another in order to share contacts or set up an airdrop. I hadn't thought about it before in this way, but this is when I had a moment of like, oh, that's why. And it's, they took the ability to always see other people in airdrop away, right? That was one of those things that you can, you can turn it on for like 15 minutes to airdrop to anybody, but it's off. It's only your contacts or nobody by default. This is the other part of that feature. feature. This is the, so now I'm with somebody, they're not in my contacts or whatever, and I want to airdrop them something. How do I do that? And it used to be, you had to go to that setting or have that setting on all the time. And the answer now is that there's a one-time airdrop privilege given by proximity. I hadn't really thought about that before. And so that proximity thing is the solution to the, but what if I want to airdrop something to people I don't know? And now you've turned off that feature.

The answer is bring them close to each other. And, and then it's the proximity. And then you saying, yes, I will is enough approval enough for Apple to be confident that you're going to, that you've given your permission essentially to receive something as opposed

to it just being through the airwaves you know anyway you know you're saying about airdrop that's one of the places that i've been seeing tip kit tips i'm seeing them everywhere this is the thing we spoke about and i think it's actually really good like reminders of features explanations of settings so i've seen like when i bring up a photo picker it says hey this app can only see certain images because you said that, right? That's one. And social, you can change that feature. That's the one for AirDrop where it's like,

hey, you can just bring your phone next to somebody else's phone. Like I am actually quite, I'm impressed with TipKit. I think it's doing a good job of surfacing features and I hope that they continue to put the effort into that because I think it is the solve for the problem that we were talking about a number of weeks ago i think it's actually doing it yeah no i i think having looked at that session because it doesn't have to be right away

it can wait it can it can spread them out it can you can actually say like i know that i've got 15 different tips i could show right now but i can only ever show one tip every two days or whatever. It's smart enough to do that. I really like that about it. You mentioned the photo thing. That's a feature that apps are going to put in a box, and then the app could see the photos you put in the box. And that saved you from having to give them access to your whole library. The new system is you don't give the app permission to see any photos, but the photo picker they bring up, the app can't see the photos in the photo picker. The photo picker is a system photo picker. And you pick the photos, and then you press select or press okay or whatever and then those photos are handed back

to the app so which is honestly how it should have been all along yeah it was wild that you had that setting of like allow access to all photos so just the ones you choose it's like i don't i don't know why i did that in slack at one point and And then it was like, literally, I would see the same three photos every time I tried to add a photo to Slack because it only had access to those three photos. I'm like, this is not what I want. But how do you do that? And the answer is, I think that third-party apps are all going to basically go to this model of saying, oh, you didn't give me permission to see all your photos.

So I'm going to throw up the system photo picker. Pick photos, hand them back to me, and it's more private that way, and it's a better approach. I mentioned stickers earlier. I think that they're really fun, and I like the way that they've done them. I like that we have the emoji stickers,

but it's not complete yet because sticker tap backs aren't working, and that's when I know I'm going to use it more. Yes. I'll be able to bring in my reference acknowledged emoji as a sticker and then use it as a tap back emoji. Yeah, I hadn't even thought of that. But yeah, you'll be able to.

But it's not yet. Not there yet. Yeah, I hadn't actually thought of that, but you'll be able to. I'll send you Scary Skeletor. Please. I'll look forward to it. The keyboard autocorrect is super good.

I like the way it feels. I like the way it looks and works. It's definitely more reliable. I like how it's, the more like the way it looks and works. It's definitely more reliable. I like how it's, the more I'm using it I feel like it's getting way better at giving me like the next words that I might want to use or a full sentence. You just press the, it like puts them in

light grey. You just press the space bar and it fills it all in. My expectation is it will just get better and better and better as time goes on and it learns from me because that's what the system is supposed to do. Yeah, it's not perfect. I don't want to overhype it. It's a lot better.

It's not perfect. You can still make mistakes and all that. There are still like, I'm still hitting mistakes that they said that they were going to fix of like, it should be going back and correcting a word in a sentence once the sentence is complete.

Like I feel like there are sometimes there are things that are clearly an autocorrect change that when the sentence is complete that first word shouldn't say or shouldn't have an apostrophe in it anymore right like right where rather than where or something like that because it it now knows what the sentence is and it knows that that's wrong and i feel like it's not doing enough of that for me yet yeah yeah i have i have had great success with the thing that always bothered me, which is that it corrects the correct thing to the wrong thing.

And now I love the fact that I can tap on it and, and put it back to what I actually typed, which is correct. Also, what I've found is that sometimes that underline includes what I typed and other options that are close. Yeah. So what if I type something and it's a little bit

wrong and then it auto corrects it to the wrong thing when i tap that it will give me the thing i typed that's a little bit wrong and often it will give me the thing that's the alternate correction that is what i typed and i can go to that one so that's all better too the visuals for text selection the cursor all of that looks nicer too. More alive feeling, like they've done a really good job with the UI of all of that. There is a problem though, Jason.

Okay. With autocomplete. Oh, oh dear. The LOL autocomplete for emoji, they've changed the emoji and they are bad choices. So when you use to type LOL in ios 16 you would get three emoji that would appear in the quick type bar they would be face with tears of joy so like laughing with

the tears coming out grinning squinting face and squinting face with tongue i have a screenshot in the show notes it shows all of these three. The new ones are Winking Face with Tongue. See a winking sticking the tongue out? Squinting Face with Tongue and Rolling on the Floor Laughing. Who laughs with their tongue out? None of the, like the two that they've changed. So they changed Face with Tears of Joy and Grinning Squinting Face, replaced it with Winking face with tongue

which is not even laughing that's not even laughing no one is literally rofl not lol the emoji is called rolling on the floor laughing and you've made that the lol emoji which is too much right like all you really want like for me it was just those first two like i would use face with tears of joy and grinning squinting face well and i would just i have a few things like this where i type the letters as a quick to get the emoji so like i type lol and because i know i'm gonna get a good emoji but now i'm getting bad emoji they have changed it to adequate inadequate emojis for lol they've done a bad job with this change, and I want them to change it back.

I'm saying it here. I will eventually file a radar if they don't change it. Maybe there will be a new beta this week. If it's still the same, then I will file a radar for this one. Bad emoji for LOL. My response to that all is upside down face. I would just say, actually, people in the Discord are saying

they see different ones. Now, that doesn't make any sense to me. Why is that happening? But anyway, this is what I'm seeing. So there is something going wrong. Maybe it's showing different emoji for different people, but that's bad

because they've chosen the wrong ones here. These aren't emoji that I use very often. And so I don't know why they're here. Please fix. This episode is brought to you by ZocDoc. Have you ever been on the hunt for a new doctor and you ask everyone you know for their recommendation? I mean, makes sense, right? You want a doctor that's actually going to get you, one that's going to listen to you and make you feel super comfortable. Finally, after weeks of searching, you find that new doctor.

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patients. The average wait time to see a doctor booked on ZocDoc is just between 24 and 48 hours. That's it. You can even get same day appointments. This is exactly what I want when it comes to booking a doctor. I want to be able to see someone now. I don't want to wait two weeks, three weeks, a month. I've seen that before at doctor surgeries. You don't want that. You want to talk to someone now while the thing that's bothering you is still there and bothering you. Then once you find that doctor that you want, you can book them immediately with just a few easy taps. No more waiting awkwardly on hold of a receptionist or frankly using some terrible web service to book them in. Go to ZocDoc.com slash UpgradeFM and you can download the ZocDoc app for free.

Then find and book a top-rated doctor today. That is Z-O-C-D-O-C dot com slash UpgradeFM. ZocDoc.com slash UpgradeFM. Our thanks to ZocDoc for their support of this show and RelayFM. Let's finish today with some Ask Upgrade questions. The first one comes from Josh. If Intel continued to give Apple

what they wanted so they never needed to switch to Apple Silicon, do you think this would have changed the trajectory of the iPad as a Mac replacement? A lot of ifs here. There's a lot of ifs. But I want to get your temperature on this.

My answer is no. And my answer is no because first off, I dispute the question. I don't think that Apple went to Apple Silicon because Intel gave Apple what it needed. I think that that was much less the case than in any of the previous processor transitions. I think it's more that Apple became more than in any of the previous processor transitions.

I think it's more that Apple became more and more comfortable with their own chip design, more comfortable with writing features, writing software for that chip, looked at their Intel products and said, why do we still use Intel for this when we build our own chip that can do this and do it better? So I think that that's primarily what drove Apple here is that they already were making those chips. Why would they not? I think that alternately, if Apple was like, we just want to keep the Mac on Intel, I think that's maybe what was happening earlier when they were less committed to the Mac going forward before they had that roundtable moment, right? And that they were viewing the Mac as a legacy platform, which would stay on Intel and kind of keep doing what it was doing, at which point the iPad was going to be more of that Mac replacement. So I think I can't pick apart this question because I think the path where Apple kept the Mac on Intel is the path where the iPad is a Mac replacement.

But I don't think it has anything to do with, much to do with what Intel gave Apple. I think in the end, Apple, one, looked at its chip design and said, these are great, we could do these for Macs too. And two, decided that the Mac was something that they didn't want to just put in the parking lot, but they actually wanted to make appreciably better by leaning into the

fact that they made all these other devices. And they're all mobile devices. Let's point out the Mac is primarily a mobile device at this point, right? Three quarters of Macs sold roughly are laptops. So they looked at that and said, well, we're a mobile device company essentially, and we excel at this. So let's take the Mac and make it this great new thing instead of parking it. And by doing that, the iPad kind of fell by the wayside as a Mac replacement. So, I mean, that's my answer. I just, I questioned some of the premise, but I do think Josh is getting to something here, which is, I think that's the decision point from the outside as an outside observer it feels like that's really the fork in the road where they decided to not keep the mac as an intel compatibility old platform and instead

bring it into apple silicon and more aggressively update it and update its features and bring the ios features over to it and all of that and that's where we are now yeah i wanted to i knew that there was a lot of jumps that we had to do right to to kind of to talk about this because it it was it is naturally it's a thought exercise right uh but i wanted to bring it in today because i thought that it actually dovetailed quite nicely with the conversation around like the mac round table of like what was the ipad's timeline then right like if or how would that have potentially been changed like i don't know i mean maybe the ipad was supposed to step up a bit more than it has yeah

i think i think there was probably a moment where they shifted um effort into the mac and probably what happened is the effort into the ipad as a priority was reduced at that point, right? Because you've got to get that from somewhere. And if the Mac is really kind of end of life, then you would scramble, I think, more to make the iPad a Mac replacement Cut and Logic and all this, like, I think there would have been more stuff like that poured into the iPad side if they were like, really, the Mac is only going to be for legacy computing, but we're going to build the new platform. And it would have been a Final Cut Pro X kind of thing where they're like, old one's right over there, but we're building the new one over here. Be patient. People weren't patient. And then in a few years,

it'll be something that's perfectly suitable for some and people would still be unhappy with it. I mean, that's what would have happened, but instead we veered off. And I think as somebody who loves the Mac, I think it's a great decision to say the Mac is not a legacy platform. The Mac will continue to grow and change and improve. And as we said a couple of weeks ago, part of that decision is doing things like making it very difficult to make a Mac Pro that makes

sense. But they made that decision and here we are. I'll say this, if they had not made that decision, we'd still have an Intel Mac Pro, I guess. I don't know. I guess maybe we wouldn't. We'd only have an iMac Pro at that point, a Xeon iMac Pro, and that would be the high-end Mac. I really wish that it was possible to live out that timeline, like really to know what was going to go on, like what was the plan, man, that would have been... Just like, I'd love to see the fascinating alternate history. Mike Hurley in the Mac multiverse of madness. Or the multiverse of Magnus?

Yeah, the multiverse of Magnus. Multiverse of Magnus, yes. I like that. Rob asks, if iPadOS 17 getting lock screen widgets, how long before an iPad gets an always-on display? I mean, it's within the next year.

That's what I reckon one of the key drivers for the OLED iPad that is supposedly coming within the next year is tying in with this. It might be... I mean, honestly, it's probably why it's in 17 because before iOS 18, there will be an OLED iPad.

Yeah, I'm willing to hedge and say, because remember, we had OLED iPhones and they didn't do always on, right? So I'm willing to hedge a little bit, but I feel like my hedge is basically like, maybe it's only always on in nightstand. Something like that, right? It's only on when it's plugged in.

I mean, they could do an ltpo display on an ipad like why not so so but i think so i think that this is all lining up right where it's like you got those widgets on there and then you do a and then you do an oled ipad and then you can see the lock screen widgets all the time but i also wonder about nightstand right do you bring nightstand over at that point too? Which would be kind of nice. But at the very least, the lock screen widgets, yeah. Yeah, I think so. I don't think Nightstand,

because I think Nightstand requires the charging as part of it, right? I feel like. It's true. And so, and I think they do that because it is showing more than an always on display shows, which is why they're like why things are continually moving. Yes.

And so I think that's why they want it to be in conjunction with the charging. And it's about, well, will the iPad get MagSafe? Should do, I think, but I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Last question. This one we've had in our document for a while and I just thought it would be interesting

to bring up right now. Jack asks, do either of you use third party keyboards on your iOS devices? Nope I used to, I used to use Gboard because the autocorrect was better but then Apple's autocorrect got better and I have used TextExpander

before, but now most of the apps that I really want TextExpander in, they integrate with really and third party keyboards just never really got that full Most of the apps that I really want Texas Panda in, they integrate with really. And yeah, third-party keyboards just never really got that full support that they should have to be completely effective. And again, it's like over time, like one of the reasons I used to do Gboard

because I love the swipe typing, but then Apple added swipe typing to the keyboards. It's like, well, I have less and less needs for an external keyboard now. Yep. If you would like to send us in your feedback, your follow-up or questions for the show, go to upgradefeedback.com.

Also go to sixcolors.com where you'll be able to read Jason's work. Go and check out all of the wonderful first looks that Dan and Jason put together over at sixcolors.com. If you want more, you want videos and imagery that goes along with some of the stuff we've spoken about today. You can also hear Jason's other shows at theincomparable.com and here on RelayFM. I can't wait for the next

episode of Downstream because I feel like Hollywood is imploding right now and I can't wait to hear what you and Julia have to say about it. There's a lot going on. There's so much going on. I listen to so many podcasts. I listen to an emergency podcast right now. There's a lot going on. There's so much going on. I listen to so many podcasts. I listen to an emergency podcast right now. It's like a thing.

You can listen to my other shows here on RelayFM. You can check out my work at cortexbrand.com. You can find Jason and I on Mastodon and Threads. Jason is at jsnell. I am at imike. I-M-Y-K-E. You can find the show on Mastodon as atupgrade on RelayFM.social. You'll be able to

find video clips of the show there. Also on TikTok and Instagram, where we are at Upgrade Relay. I think there's going to be some pretty good ones from this episode. So I recommend that you go and check them out. Thank you to our members who support us with Upgrade Plus. You can get longer ad-free versions of the show by going to GetUpgradeplus.com. And thank you to our sponsors this week, ZocDoc, Notion, and Electric for their support of the show. But as always, most of all, more than anything else, thank you for listening. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow. Until when? Next time. I always say until then. It's just how I say it, you know? Sometimes you've got to feel it. It's like a bookend, you know? I say until next time at the start, and then it's until then. It's just how I say it. You know, sometimes you've got to feel it. It's like a bookend, you know?

Like I said, like until next time at the start. And then it's until then. You know, we've got to think about it that way. Okay. Until then, everybody. Bye. you