Upgrade - 495: Nothing Can Possibly Go Wrong

Episode Date: January 15, 2024

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 495 for january 15th 2024 today's show is brought to you by notion and delete me my name is mike hurley i am joined by jason snell hi jason hi mike i love the energy whoa i'm excited for today because definitely nothing can go wrong uh okay why is that well i mean i'm just referencing last week's episode which was uh oh well i mean first off things could totally go wrong this week too but yes last week we recorded on a Sunday because I had to travel. And on Monday morning, Apple released their press release about the Vision Pro coming out, thereby requiring us to make the, I think, unprecedented decision to remove things from the episode and record new information to insert, to explain what happened, which is ouch. That's a, I did offer,

but on my way out the door to the airplane to like hop on with you and do like a quick back and forth. And you're like, I got it. I got it taken care of. It's fine. We caught about, um,

25 minutes from the episode. And I know that people might out there might be like, oh, but why? Because it was us trying to guess when the pre-orders might go up. And we spoke about it for a long time. And so it really didn't make any sense. But luckily, I will say luckily, it did actually happen before we published.

That's the one good part. Yeah. Because the way I feel about it, if something happened Monday night or Tuesday morning, well, there's nothing we can do about it. We're always recording Monday, releasing Mondays. That's it. But it's so rare that we record in advance like that. But we did, and it came back to bite us, as these things sometimes do.

But we're going to talk all about Vision Pro today. Got a lot of stuff to cover. If anything, I'm actually happy that we've had seven days to digest this information rather than we would have had 20 minutes last week. But we will start out with a Snell Talk question as we do. First one, the only one this week comes from Brian, who says, do you make an effort to complete your Apple Watch stand goal? I mean, this is definitely in the category of things I think we've talked about before, but the answer is no, mostly no. Every now and then, I think I turned all these alerts off, but there was a time when I would get an alert or I would be paying attention. I would realize I was one hour away from the stand goal and I would get up and walk around and move my arms and stuff, trying to go over the edge. But you know, I turned all those off. I don't even get alerts about making goals or that you're about close to your goal anymore. I just don't do it. I have stopped. I've gotten, I don't know when I did that. I don't even remember, but like I got off the Apple watch nagging. I'm, I'm, this may not be a surprise because what we learned, what we've learned over the last year, especially in and talking to Stephen Hackett when he was here, I am apparently somebody who is trying to keep things minimal in a lot of ways.

In my Mac interface and stuff like that. I think this is in line with that. The idea that I don't want to get bugged by stuff. The idea that I don't want to get bugged by stuff. And the Apple Watch, as much as part of what it's trying to do is bug you, prod you to do better and all of that, I think my life is improved by getting less of the bugs. I just kind of don't want the noise in my life. In fact, I'm going to write this up. I mentioned it here, I think, or on some podcast, and I haven't, I don't think written about it in six colors, but one of the things that I've done that I really am happy with, I know we talked about some of this. When I'm curling, when I'm

at the curling club, I'm in a focus mode that's based on location. That means that when I'm out on the ice, I don't have random texts coming in from people who think, you know, Jason will see this and respond whenever. And I would see them and I would respond with like a pre-baked Apple watch reply. And then they would be like, oh, Jason's engaging. I'm going to continue this conversation. It's like, I don't want to talk to you right now. So I just have the focus mode and I don't see it until I'm off the ice. And similarly, I used to get notifications that would light up my phone that I can see through the glass while I was in the shower. And now I have a thing, I have a, when it connects to my Bluetooth speaker in the shower, it puts me in do not disturb. And when I turn off the speaker,

when I leave the shower, it exits do not disturb. And my life is better for it because I don't need to be, I just don't need to be bugged in these contexts. So I'm really kind of leaning into that idea that there are times when it's okay for almost everybody. I mean, I've got my family that can break through and stuff, but there are times when I just want to be unreachable. Like I don't, and you know what? I think a lot of it is from people who expect, like when I text people or send people messages and mention them in slacks or discords i'm expecting it to be asynchronous right i'm expecting it to be like they'll when they see this they can respond and i don't think it's rude for people to send me texts right i i really don't or or push

notifications which is the other thing in the shower where it's like oh here's a headline from a news organization like you know it's so distracting to get the screen lights up. Sometimes there's an actual audio disconnect if I've set the notification wrong. I don't need it. I don't want it. So I've really tried to do more of that. I'll catch up with you when I'm done with what I'm doing. Similarly, when I'm running, I have it set now that my fitness focus, uh, turns on when I'm in a workout

and, uh, and I've set the fitness focus to similarly prevent almost everybody from breaking through other than my family. Because although it's nice to hear from people, like when I'm running, all it's going to do is distract me. And if I do try to reply, I'm going to do a canned reply or I'm suddenly tapping out a reply on my Apple. It's like, you know what? They can wait.

They don't need to know that I'm running. They can wait until 20 minutes later and it'll be fine. So, so it's a long way to go to talk about Brian's question, but I mean, cause the simple answer is no. Uh, but the,

the more complicated answer is I'm trying to drop the noise out of, out of my life from these. Cause I like their times. I mean, most of the noise out of my life from these. Because I like their times. I mean, most of the time the Apple Watch pushes notifications to me. I do want that feature, but I don't want it all the time. There are times when I don't want it. And so I'm happy that Apple has made these abilities, these focus modes. That's how I use focus modes, basically, is there are moments when I do not want to be bothered.

What about recording when you're recording podcasts and stuff do you have any kind of focus mode for that yeah all my automations now fire off a recording focus mode that similarly strips back my uh and limits who can contact me same reason like love this again if their close family needs to do it but um but if if it's some you know other person they're not gonna get my attention yeah right so like if i'm messaging you about upgrade but you're recording the incomparable you shouldn't be notified about that you're busy with something else and it can wait right like that's yeah i think that's great there's i really hope's very little that anybody is going to send me

that needs my reaction while I'm recording a podcast. And if it is, it's going to be when it's an emergency. And I know the people who are going to send me something that it's actually an emergency that I need to deal with immediately and stop what I'm doing. And it's basically my wife and kids and mom, and that's it.

Nobody else gets through. So if you really want to get through during a podcast i guess um see if jamie can send me something yeah well now i know if i ever really need you i've got to get to jamie get to jamie or lauren or julian i just picked jamie because i thought it was funny anyway uh yeah so that's it i'm just trying to reduce the noise like like at the at the right times right i think context i think that's the whole point is like how do our devices know that there are times when i'm happy to get a push notification about a you know an alert or something and how and and when not to and especially for things like texts or mentions in slack where it's like

the right thing to do is send me the text like the right thing to do is send me the text, right? The right thing to do is send me the text. But as a human being, I react to the text with, oh, I've got to field this. Now I've got a thing weighing me down. I've got a to-do item. It's like, oh no, somebody sent me a text. I need to respond. I need to look at it.

And I'm very happy to have the computer say, you know, be like my receptionist, basically. And be like, nope, sorry, Jason can't be bothered right now. He'll get back to you when he's done with what he's doing. I like that. If you would like to send in a Snow Talk question to help us open a future episode of the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com and tick Snow Talk and send it in.

We'll appreciate it. And thank you to everybody that does. I have a couple of follow-up items for you, Jason. This first one comes from Matt, who said, I heard you mentioning Massimo. This is the company who Apple are currently fighting with over the blood oxygen sensor. I heard you mention them being based out of Irvine, California

on the last episode. I worked just down the road from their headquarters and thought it was interesting that their headquarters was used as stark industries in the first iron man movie and i looked at a picture of it they have this kind of like round glass area and i think that was where they had the press conference where he's like i am iron man i think it was there nice so nice that's fun little tidbit shout out to irvine i i have spent so much time in irvine because my in-laws live there and have lived there as long as I've known my wife

that I wish I could. Here's the Irvine tidbit I'll leave, which is our friend David Sparks. I've had lunch with him in Irvine many, many times. That's where you used to have lunch. The Sparky Lunch was usually in Irvine, not always, but there's

right by Massimo headquarters. In fact, the Spectrum Center has a lot of places to eat. Anyway, shout out to Orange County. Speaking of Massimo, Apple's workaround for the blood oxygen sensor with the patents that are being, what, accused to be infringing on? Disputed. Disputed? Disputed. Well, whatever.

Yes, that Apple is supposedly infringing on massimo's patents so they they need to find a way there was all this the big story about like apple's got a software workaround here oh can't wait to see how cleverly apple has decided to work around massimo's patents drum roll so the workaround in software is just disabling it just yeah they just disabled it so any new watch in the u.s will have this device turned off this has been accepted by the u.s customs agency and i'm going to read now from chance miller at nine to five mac who's been like friend of the show the guy reporting on this yep saying we're also the guy reporting on this saying we're also this is a quote from Chance we're also still waiting

on the decision from the US appeals court on Apple's request to pause the Apple Watch ban throughout the entire duration of the appeals process that decision could come as soon as today the ITC has already voiced its opposition to Apple's request so there you go

the moment it looks like if you there may I don't know how it's actually going to Apple's request. There you go. The moment it looks like if you I don't know how it's actually going to roll out or not but this is the workaround. The mystical workaround that had been discussed was get rid of the feature which is not great.

Can you tell me I saw you talking about this on Mastodon. There's going there's some improvements coming to macOS that will make the installation of some applications a bit more smooth? Can you tell me about this? Yeah, so Apple has a lot of security policies. We've established this. And Apple Silicon has brought some more security approaches to macOS. And it has had some very weird fallout, including, I think, most notably, that Audio Hijack, a tool we use all the time. Just to step you really quickly, for those who don't know, how you install Audio Hijack.

The way you do it is you install Audio Hijack. is you install audio hijack and then it says hey i need you to restart and hold down the power button and then go into recovery mode and then go to a menu in recovery mode that is set secure. It's like the security utility. And then in there you have to say, allow, and it's scary, allow security, lower security levels. Scary. Like lower security. Why would I want to be less secure? All to allow Audio Hijack's extension to run.

So then you reboot. And you come back, you know, finally, our long nightmare is over. Audio Hijack says, great, now we're going to add the extension. And you need to approve the extension. And then after you approve the extension,

the system says, got a reboot. So you reboot again. a normal reboot this time. And so we've rebooted into the security system, then rebooted again to get back to the level where it says to reboot a third time. So three reboots, all in all, to get you to functional audio hijack. It's not great.

Good news. In Rogue Amoeba's end of the year wrap up blog, they dropped this tidbit, which is they have apparently, I don't think they said this, it's clear they've been working with Apple about this because how could they not? Apple put in this thing in 2020 that costs three

reboots and a scary security dialogue that has to be lowered in order to get their product to work. And multiple ones of their products. I think sound sources like this too. A bunch of their products are like this. It's all these Roku Mewa products. The good news is if you install more than one, the work is done and you can just install the rest and you don't have to reboot more times. So clearly they've been talking to Apple about this. And the other reason that I think

that Apple is involved here is because if Rogamiba could fix this themselves, they would have fixed this in 2020 and it is now 2024. However, I have some uh other news which is there is in mac os 14.2 a new permission appeared in security and privacy and i know what you're saying out there oh boy more permissions to grant on mac os and yes i yeah i know i know but it's the uh screen recording is now called screen recording and system audio and there are two separate things and one of them is screen

recording and system audio bartender uses that keyboard maestro uses that it's the thing that you use if you're trying to capture screens and shot uses is going to use this too like they're another developer that i saw that's saying that they can get rid of that permission now yeah exactly because it's like you get to look at the screen right like keyboard master needs to look at the screen because i literally have macros where it looks at something on the screen and then clicks on it right like but there's new now in 14.2 there's a new thing that says system audio recording only and nothing is in there none of my apps are using that but spider sense tells me that that's what's going on here is that apple has and maybe maybe it's buggy or something you know maybe they need to wait for an update or something like that and that's why this is not out but it sure

looks like apple has built in a brand new permission that is, hey, capture system audio. Does that sound familiar? That sounds a lot like Rogamiba. So it sounds like, there's a long way of saying, it sounds like something between Apple doing stuff and Rogamiba being able to adapt it, and presumably some other apps as well, that according to Rogamiba's blog post,

you'll be able to install Audio Hijack without even doing an administrator password. Apparently all you have to do is say allow. Amazing. And that a couple of their apps that do extra hinky stuff, so like SoundSource, which is routing sounds around,

and Loopback, which is creating like virtual inputs, those apparently you'll need to install a helper with an administrator password they have a new helper app that's replacing their old helper app they had ace and now and this is arc but it's no reboot required it's literally just you have to install the helper and you move on so uh the good news is one of the worst user experiences for a set of apps on Mac OS will go away.

And the bad news is it took three or four years for this to happen. But at least it sounds like it's about to happen. From my perspective, I don't care how long it took. I'm just happy they did it.

Like, this was not... I actually thought that we were more likely going to get to a point where this was will not be possible anymore because it seemed like it had gotten so complicated like i was nervous that apple would just like restrict him restrict him restricting right until it was like you know the walls are closing in until they just close completely so i'm really happy that you know we have a lot of criticism especially for the whoever is deciding

on the way that permissions work on mac os these days um but this is a triple thumbs up from me right like great make this easier it makes it easier for users it makes it easier for the developers because they don't feel like they're having to like try and find a way to prove to their users that they're not actually a virus. And so the steps in which they explain to you, like developers have to explain to you to do this, especially with Rogamiba, they do the best they can.

But if you don't know the app, it sounds sketchy as hell, right? Right, it sounds like something that a hacker would do to take over your computer. Now I need you to reboot and lower your security systems. Wait a second. Yeah. I just want to recall something from YouTube. Why have I got it? Is this some sort of scam? And the answer is no. So the line that Paul Kafasas, the CEO of Rogamiba, put in his story is, there's no doubt that this has deterred people from using our products and i think that's absolutely right i i there's no doubt at all because it's scary like this is we talk about

this about apple using the um the the app store communication thing in uh in the eu which may be coming very soon right this idea that they're going to allow sideloading and and the line that i think i gave last year was this app may kill you right like the idea is you can turn it on but you're going to have to get through scare text that says don't turn this on right turning this on you may die so don't and then you go turn it on and it's like are you sure you want to die yes okay it's on right well this is you want to die? Yes. Okay. It's on. Right. Well, this is that, this is that for the last four years for Rogue Amoeba is, uh, we, we, we swear we're honest here when we tell you that it lowers your security and it, it won't actually lower your security. And we're not actually a, well, the other thing that it implies for technical

people, I've heard this from a bunch of very smart technical people is, well, they're, they're doing a kernel extension and it's like, it's not, it's using the mechanism to install a kernel extension, but, but it's not, it's just the only mechanism that Apple allows that lets them install their thing, even though it's not doing what the mechanism is designed for. Like, it's just ridiculous. So anyway, this is, it's something that is, I think, materially hurt their business for three years and it's bad for users. And this is a tool that I,

a bunch of tools I recommend to people and then this gets inflicted on them. So I'm going to be very happy when this era ends. Jason, as you know, Upgrade Plus listeners, they get this show ad-free, but for everybody else,

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And when you use our link, you're helping support our show. That is notion.com slash upgrade. Our thanks to Notion for their support of this show and all of RelayFM. Alright, so we've got to talk about the Vision Pro. I want to do this in two chunks.

I want to talk about the nuts and bolts of the announcement. Then I want to talk about the reaction that I've seen online that I'm sure you've seen too just yeah sure the wide reactions that have been going on in the past week so very quick it's February 2nd is when the product will be available in Apple stores and online with pre-orders this Friday January 19th

so it was just a press release there was no event of any kind this is something we and you were questioning a lot on the last episode no video or anything as of yet just a press release. There was no event of any kind. This is something we and you were questioning a lot on the last episode. No video or anything as of yet, just a press release. Do you have any further reflections on that approach? Well, I know that it was in the spectrum of things I thought were possible. I know it was at the other end of the spectrum from what you expected, which is interesting. Because when we talked about this last week, you were like, it's going to be an event and they're going to invite people. And I was like, I don't know, because it's a thing.

The reason you invite people is to try it out. And trying it out is not something that you can do when you invite a huge number of people to one place at one time, because we learned in June, they have to spread that out. So I thought it would be a different kind of people to one place at one time because they we learned in june they have to spread that out so i thought it would be a different kind of approach i didn't expect it to be this minimal but it does go it is in line with what we talked about about the fact that the um supply is so limited that apple wants people to know that it's doing this i think to a certain degree but it doesn't want to drive demand too much because they don't have supply. So they don't, they don't want nobody. They don't want to scare people off and say, don't buy it. But honestly, if they did nothing, I think that they

would, people would buy this, right? Because there's a whole group of people who are really into this, who know, um, about it and want it. So they, so they didn't add, for example, they didn't add during the national championship game, the college football national championship game, Monday night, they didn't add that was a reference to their, that,

that hello ad with the iPhone where it's clips from movies where people answering the phone that was at the Oscars. This was people putting goggles on basically, or glasses. And that was an awareness ad, right? That was really just like, get ready. In fact, I think that was what it said, get ready. There's a new thing coming from Apple. And the fact is we all think, oh, but we've known about this since June. But one of the lessons I learned really early on in my journalism career, my Apple journalism career especially, was nobody remembers anything,

especially people who don't care or don't care that much. So people who subscribe to Macworld Magazine didn't really care or know or let it stick in their mind what the features of macOS were going to be when they got announced in June because you would tell them in september or october and they'd be like whoa new features because until it's real until they can put it on their device it's it's just you know so yeah whatever and and they they either don't pay

attention or even if they do that it just passes through their mind so vision pro is the same way so apple says ah get ready they're starting to re-engage it's going to be interesting to see where it goes but in terms of the effort put into the press material which going out to the press right the press is paying attention and the press does have a memory it was not zero effort right like it's a new press release but it's a lot of stuff we knew it's almost everything is from june There are some new tidbits in there. They talk about games. They're more third-party details. It's very funny because a lot of Apple's PR,

they just like to list developers with software. It's like, oh, it's a new MacBook Pro, and it will call out by name certain games that they're pushing or certain apps. It's a very interesting- It was Resident Evil evil now it's death stranding and uh lies of p and like fantastical is in the press release right like they they will cherry pick some things that give the impression of third-party support and utility

in ways that they find valuable and so like there are some games mentioned in the vision pro that where they really didn't touch vision pro gaming other than to show like an ipad game before there are some games that are mentioned but mostly it's the same stuff and media and what really got me is assets like the pictures and stuff are i mean i didn't check i didn't do a like full-on conspiracy board. They may not be all exactly the same images from June, but if not, they're from the same sessions. They're literally of the same models in the same locations. And that surprised me.

But maybe that's just Apple's attitude is like, we're just going to replay our introduction because we're still introducing and there's no reason for us to do a second shoot. Obviously they like those materials, right? They didn't look back six months ago and say, you know, I really didn't like that photo shoot. Let's do another photo shoot. That didn't happen. They did that photo shoot and that's what we've got. It's the same imagery and all of that. So that I, I find that really interesting.

You know, obviously there's going to be, because we've seen it now with that commercial, interesting you know obviously there's going to be because we've seen it now with the that commercial uh there's going to be some launch stuff presumably they are seating reviewers you know early embargo reviewers with this um in fact there was a report that they're like reviewers will get a demo and then a week later they'll get another demo and only then will they be sent a review unit which is kind of wild but okay sign me up by the way apple sign sign me up i'm ready um so am i yeah yeah mike is too but me first but mike is good too uh anyway wow i i that so there's gonna be hype and there's gonna be buzz but like it's interesting to see apple like how the apple manages it and our first glimpse of it is this announcement, which was as low-key as it gets.

I've seen a lot of people say things along the lines of, this announcement means that Apple is not confident in this product. I'm not sure if I agree with that sentiment. I see how someone could get there, but I don't draw the cause and effect there because of something like the fact that this is supposedly so little which we'll talk about later on in the episode some reports and that but it's a line they have to walk because they don't want to not talk about it and they do want to show some level of confidence in it

that's why they put it in an ad that is a direct reference to the iPhone ad, and they put it in one of the most watched TV events of the year, the College National Championship game, as the debut. They took a big, like they did with the Oscars, right? They took a big stage and debuted that ad. At the same time, this product is not priced in a way that regular people are ever going to buy it. So if they create demand, most of the demand they create through marketing is immediately going to hit on the price. And that's going to be the end of the equation, right? They hit on the price and they're like, oh, forget it. That's ridiculous. I thought it would be $500. Right. And it's like, well, we all know that it's not, but remember all of our, we went over at like years of trying to

grapple with the reports on the price. And it was still higher than that. Like imagine experiencing that entire journey in one second, right? That's what people who don't know about Vision Pro, but are curious are going to discover. It's like, it costs what? And they're going to walk away. So you kind of, you know, you're walking this line where you want people to be aware of it, but you kind of want to set the expectation that it's for the future. Apple's working on the future. And this is the first one.

And I think if you're Apple, ideally you want to create an attitude that is sort of like, oh, Apple's doing this interesting thing. Maybe this is the future. Maybe I'll buy one in a few years when it's cheaper and better because you know technology,

that's always what it is. I think that's what they're going for. I'll also say that those reactions are exactly what we said would be the reactions last year, which is the fact that this product is not available in volume is going to mean that it has a rollout that is unusual for Apple products. And it is going to allow people to say, oh, because you could also say, oh, Apple didn't sell even a million of them in its first year. And somebody will write that story. It's a flop. And it's like Apple couldn't make a million of them

in its first year, right? That's the truth of this is, is it's not, it's an overpriced product for the market because most people just don't want a $3,500 thing, but they're making so few of them that demand will probably still outstrip supply. So it's a weird, it's just a weird place. So I'm not surprised people are having takes like that, but I think that those are people who want to have those takes and the weird circumstances allow them to have them,

but it's entirely predictable. So the storage starts at 256 gigabytes. I've considered this a bit of a heartbreak that there are going to be more expensive models. I wish they would have just had one model um we don't know any more about that yet we don't we don't know any more about it i i i'm surprised by this i'm surprised that they're doing skews for storage because it like how much more complexity does this product need if you don't have many of them

why are you splitting them up you know like the apple tv how do you communicate why people need storage on this 256 gigabytes i mean is it you could load it full of movies is it you could load it full of apps is there i mean i've always sort of assumed that this is a very cloud focused product yeah you could use it on an airplane and and but you know apple's got a whole system of caching cloud files and stuff like that i don't know i don't know like is it a computer right like am i going to use it like a computer so therefore i need good storage on it like i don't know now they've given me options i feel like i feel like i can't go with 256 about i need to see what the prices are and i don't know what they are uh questions

around prescriptions so like you know how the lenses are going to work if you have prescription lenses you need to provide a prescription so after you if you place a pre-order you then upload a prescription to apple yes i like that they're doing it that way around not making like the rush for ordering that there will inevitably be like, right. You're right. So you just place your order and then deal with the stuff. Nor are they going to Zeiss and saying, Hey, go over to Zeiss's website.

Cause that's what happened with my, my meta quests, right. Is that I had to go to Zenni optical and then, and they had a link to the product, but then I'm on Zenni optical and I have to order through them. And here, Apple sounds like they're going to be like,

we will take your prescription. And, and then, and then the Zeiss lenses. And there must be some sort of handout there. Cause I think Zeiss is licensed to do prescription eyewear, right? So they, they use their partner, but they've, they seem to have tried to streamline it as much as possible so that you don't have to make two separate orders and all of that, even though they may come as two separate orders, you don't have to make all of that. Maybe you do. I mean, we don't know. But my imagining here is Apple will do everything within the law to make it that it's as smooth as possible to order the lenses that go in it for prescription lenses. And that may also be a reason, by the way, why international rollout is more complicated is because in every market they need to deal with potentially limitations of prescription eyewear and if they need a partner in that market. In some markets they might not, but some markets they will.

And in the U.S., you know, you have to, you know, prescription, it's a prescription, you know, prescription eyewear. There is regulation around this. But that's why they're using ZEISS's a prescription. Prescription eyewear, there is regulation around this. But that's why they're using Zeiss as a partner. When you're making your order, you need a device around with Face ID that you will use to assess which light shield that you're using. I'm expecting that there's some kind of thing where you can order on a Mac and it will prompt you on your iPhone to use the updated Apple Store app. Intriguing. So they're going to have to have that around you. Maybe. Well, if you're on a Mac, you don't have a face ID update. So yeah, they would just say, order this from your iPhone. This goes back to a thing that I was told in June at the tent

when we were waiting for, or actually when I was getting my face scanned, and I think afterward a PR person said to me, the Apple Store app will get updated to do the face scan. And that has apparently already happened, that there was just an Apple Store app update that enabled this. So there you go. I think that you can order it on a Mac though. But like then it says,

it says have your iPhone or iPad nearby. So like you can order on your phone of course but if you order on a different machine that you would provide the scan on a separate device it's the way that i read it but yes we'll find out uh i saw joanna stone did a good post of just like detailing what's in the box so the solo knit band which is the one that we know right the one that was on all the images with the frills and the little dial. Then there's something called the dual loop band, which is one that has a top strap. Now, interestingly, when we tried it out, we had a combo of the two.

So it was the solo knit band and then a dual loop that went over the top. And I'm hoping that we will be able to combine the two but we'll see i don't know my understanding is that the solo knit band is more for shorter sessions 30 minutes or whatever and that the dual loop band and is and is easily adjustable and the dual loop band is more complicated to adjust you sort of have to slide things around and all that may like take it off the the solo knit band has the around and all that, like take it off. The solo loop band has the dial. You can kind of like leave it on your head

and just move it around and do the dial to adjust it. Dual loop band, more complicated, but apparently better for long duration use if you're going to use this for two hours or four hours or whatever,

that the dual loop band is a better choice for that because it will provide uh provide more support and and i will we'll see but that's what i've been hearing you also get your light seal light shield uh you get two cushions for it i don't really know what that means i'm maybe it's like the soft part that you can take out and clean like that's the actual part that touches your face but i genuinely don't know my understanding is the cushions too are a uh it's a uh like fit thing where it's like see how this fits okay put on another cushion and now see how this fits that you're you're basically

the light seal is whatever larger or or small um and then there's like um the the cushions are there to give you other ways to fit it because they're concerned about fit and they know that some people will need more cushion and some people will need less. You get a cover for the front of the device, a polishing cloth. Oh, boy. I have some important breaking news about the polishing cloth because I know the sickos out there care about the polishing cloth. I love it. It's another space gray situation, Mike. My understanding is that the polishing cloth on the Vision Pro is a different polishing cloth than the one that people know and love.

Whoa. That you use for a display. Watch out for these things on eBay. My sources. This is why people have recognized me as a universal inside source about Apple, which is not a thing they recognize me for is i come with the knowledge i come with the deep knowledge uh-huh that there are different polishing cloths people so this is specific for this device this cloth i well i don't know that it's possible that there have been different polishing cloths all along. In history. It's possible.

That I don't know. But yes, word has reached me from important sources, very important sources, that the polishing cloth in the Vision Pro isn't the same polishing cloth as in some other products. Wow. Yep. Can't reveal my sources, Mike, but boy, we're breaking the news here.

Woo! Watch out for the rumor blogs. You know, we're going to be all over them today. They're going to reblog me and they're going to be like, Jason Snell has the, yeah, that'll be a heck of a headline. Polishing cloth might be different. And then also the battery and all the cables that you need, of course, will be in the box.

You mentioned media. So Apple have said over 150 3D movies will be available, along with, you mentioned games. They referenced something I've not seen before, spatial games. So there will be games on Apple Arcade that you play just like a window floating out

there, right? But then there are also games which are spatial games and they named Game Room, What the Golf, and Super Fruit Ninja, which is such a great name. And that one I can imagine will be a lot of fun, Fruit Ninja. And I'm intrigued about What the Golf, because the team behind What the Golf have a VR game called What the Bat, which is on Quest, which is really fun.

Yeah, MetaQuest, which is really fun. And I thought that they would bring What the Bat here, but they didn't. They've made a golf game, it seems, called What the Golf, which is a special game. See what that's all about. I'm intrigued. I mean, What the Golf's the game that they've done but they're apparently doing a spatial version of what the golf which yeah i mean they don't know the golf what the car what the car and then they did what the bat on on meta quest so they've got some experience doing doing uh ar and vr games

and i don't know whether these spatial games are going to be like immersive games or are they like you have it scans your room and it puts a golf hole somewhere and you have to do something i don't know i mean you got to assume you can i think we can easily assume what super fruit ninja is right like you're swiping your hands and you're cutting the fruit right like yes like chopping them yeah who knows i mean i'm intrigued about these though because you know like these these are games that they can't really take advantage of a controller. Like, I'm really intrigued to see what the specific gaming story looks like on this device. That is an intrigue to me.

Yeah, and we saw a clip from Avatar, The Way of Water. We did. In our demo. So, you know, 3D movies is a thing that has been obviously going to happen. And so this is more kind of confirmation of that, that Apple is going to be loading up, you know, 3D content in the store. I imagine there'll be more over time because there are so many 3D theatrical releases that could be put on the device as well. And it's a pretty nice experience. on the device as well and it's a pretty nice experience um i i think uh yeah like um the super mario's super mario brothers movie which was a big hit i think is going to be the demo

movie in stores so we'll see that'd be fun it's a it's a me i would go with avatar but you know okay i've held off watching the avatar movie until i can watch it on this device because i hadn't seen it and i saw that clip and i was like yeah i'm not gonna watch that until yeah i can i can watch it in this way it's gonna be amazing same so minchi quos reported that there is by his estimate, an availability of 60,000 to 80,000 units for launch day. So if you want to get a launch day unit, you will be one of somewhere between 60,000 to 80,000. And I see that number. I don't know if that's enough. I don't know if it's too many. It's impossible to know at this stage, I think. Is that a lot? Is that not a lot? We have no idea right that's almost 300 per retail store if they got evenly distributed we know they're

going to be a lot of online orders yeah like is that yeah i i don't know this is going to be the mystery is like what's the volume like i i feel pretty confident that they're going to sell every one of these that they make if they're they will at least this year right but but right i would imagine that there's an enormous amount of demand from uh people who want to be on the cutting edge and developers alone that there will be enormous demand up front is enormous more than 80 000 i don't know that's the thing right like i agree with you my guess is yes my guess is yes okay my guess is yes i believe that they will sell all of them on the first day i'm just not sure if that's within two minutes or six hours yes i think that's a good question i i would imagine that if you hear about this the next day

you won't be able to order one but um and they may hold some back for retail right like that might happen but we'll see i don't know but that might not include very so this 80 000 the way that quo has said it's like that's that first day because then they've got two weeks to send more in right they can keep making them they can and have them in for launch day probably will yeah keep making them i think that's one of the benefits of the time period that they've given themselves. From when you can order them to when they're... But then also

maybe not all of this 80,000 have even made it to the US yet. So that might be the other thing that's going on. Mark Gurman has some details about the try-on experience that people will be able to book in for from launch day onwards so mark describes it as a 25 minute long experience that begins with scanning your face for the seal with the phone as well as using a device to check

a prescription of glasses this is what we did this is how it worked for us when we saw it drop you drop drop the glasses in and it checks and And my understanding, and you're like, well, wait a second, but I have to order my glasses from Zeiss. No, there will be a selection of optical inserts behind the scenes in the store. And they will try to do the closest match. And there's apparently a limit where they'll be like, we don't have a good match for you. But they will try to do the closest match. And there's apparently a limit where they'll be like, we don't have a good match for you. But they will try. And I think this is going to be interesting for people who are buying in the store. Because if you want the experience, you want to go out the door ready to go, you're going to need to take the adjusters that are in the store.

And they may not be as close as what you get from Zeiss. Because Zeiss is going to make it to your specific prescription. So you might have to decide, do I want to walk out with a Vision Pro but not really use it for a week or whatever it is until the Zeiss lenses come? Or do I want to take a prescription that's not quite right? That's going to be an interesting question.

But yeah, that's how it works is they are going to stock. I don't want to know how hard this is going to be on Apple Store employees to have a large number of different prescriptions behind the scenes. But they're apparently going to do that. So that's how it's going to work in store. They drop your glasses in. They read the prescription. And then they go and find the closest match. There's a slight detail from this.

and then they go and find the closest match. There's a slight detail from this. Mark Gurman does say that if you buy online for in-store pickup, and if you buy online too, there is an element with the Apple Watches where they're putting your pack together. So they get your order and it's like, right, you need this light seal, you need these glasses. So even from store assembly,

what will be picked up in a store if you order it to a store it's not like your box is sent right it's like there's a bunch of boxes that they're putting together and putting them in a bag right lots of vision pros lots of light seals lots of cushions and lots of lenses in the back so going back to the demo experience it seems again like pretty close to the experience that we had in june so there'll be like an onboarding and interface explanation and the person that you're doing it with will have an ipad where they can see what you can see which we saw they kind of walk through the eye tracking with people you'll look at images both regular ones panoramic ones and spatial images

then there's a demo of safari and a apps, then immersive video. So this feels very much like what we did. Yeah. My understanding is it's a version of what we did sort of slimmed down to be 20-ish minutes in the headset. Yeah. In a presumably 30-minute appointment. And Mark says, quote, the goal of the demos is to give users an experience that's compelling but not exhausting, ideally them itching for more yeah and we know we we went through that experience so imagine a slightly a slightly shorter experience than what we went through but a very a very similar thing where they're getting you know they're getting some some productivity and they're they're you

know getting comfortable with the gestures and then they have you know a movie and a panorama and a 3d you know a spatial photo right like all the stuff that we saw i would say if you listen to this show book yourself in for one of these you should do do yourself a favor it's great experience no no no money required right you should book in for this 30 minutes it's gonna these are gonna be hard to come by because I don't know how many of these slots they're going to have available. Because keep in mind, it's one customer for 30 minutes. It's literally one-to-one because it's a customer and an Apple Store employee with an iPad to see, you know, like it was with us, to see what you're looking at so that they can help you. And they guide you through the process.

It's pretty, I mean, we had two people, right? We had a guider and also like a PR keeper and both of those people were, were in the room with us, but this will be a one-to-one of a store person and you for half an hour. So it's pretty, this is pretty labor intensive for Apple for, for those people arguing that Apple, uh, isn't really behind this product. This is pretty serious stuff. Mark Gurman also says the Belkin are making a battery clip, which I just love. We're going to clip those things to our belts, baby. Going to be walking around.

But this is sensible because that thing needs to go somewhere, and it can go in your pocket. Or if you don't want to put it in your pocket, you could maybe clip it to your belt or clip it to something. Clip it to a belt, even if you weren't planning on wearing one. Sure. Somebody else's belt if you want. You could, but they just have to follow you around if you're going to be moving.

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and relay fm so now i want to talk about the reactions and i've tried to pick out some things that i've been seeing online pick out some things from places've been seeing online, pick out some things from places. I asked people on our Discord to share me their hot takes, and I took the kind of idea there, because I've said this to a few people privately. I'm going to say it on this show. This press release, I'm pretty sure people are losing their minds over it, and it is really interesting to me to see the variety of takes that I've been coming across online i don't know if i have ever seen the amount of angst and doubt and anger so wide in our community as i have from reactions to this product and it which is surprising to me because it's not like we didn't

know this was happening and so like it's weird to me now to see what i've been seeing so much i've seen people say it's a 3500 dev kit like i've been seeing that so much and we'll get into some of the reasons why people are saying that but i think for me personally like a top line thing about this is like i'm seeing a lot of people saying oh i can I can't justify the cost of this. That's fine. Just don't buy it. Like, it's okay to not buy this, right? Yeah. I mean, we've talked about this before. There are people who get really mad when Apple makes a product that they don't want. Like, deeply offended.

Like, Apple should only make products. And we've seen this in all sorts of ways, right? Where there's a new Mac laptop and people get really mad because it's not the one that they want. It's a different one. It's like, ah, that MacBook Air. And it's a very weird bit of psychology, right? People who are upset that Apple also makes products that they don't want. Or even weirder, that Apple makes products they actually do want, but not in the way know, not in the way that they want or not for

the price that they want. And I understand it. Like you should like what you like. I don't always understand the, the, the mindset behind being just mad, like mad that I can't buy it. Like, okay. I mean, I get it. It's very expensive, but also if you don't want it, like that's fine. That's, that's fine. fine i get it this is a long a lot of people wanted the first iphone it was too expensive a lot of people want the first mac and it was too expensive like it it happens it still happens in this it will come down over time but for now it is that as for the 3500 dev kit i mean i know i know the specific post that you're referring to when you say that honestly jason i've i've seen lots more than once i've seen it everywhere okay well i'm thinking of a specific

post but here's what i would say it is true from a certain point of view because a lot of the people who are going to buy this are going to be developers who want in on this platform. That's absolutely true. However, it's also not true, probably, probably, in the sense that there is going to be software for it and there are going to be these other kind of experiences like movies for it. And so I don't think that the early adopters of this are going to feel like it's a completely barren wasteland. That said, will it appear barren compared to where this platform will probably be in a couple of years? Sure. I think that's true. But I think we don't really know what the third-party content and

third-party app story is going to be. I think it's a right to be apprehensive and say, given that a lot of developers have never touched the hardware at all, most other developers have only touched it for a very short amount of time in like a lab somewhere, that a lot of developers are reluctant to put their software out for this thing unseen. And so if you get it week one, you may find that a lot of software just isn't there yet. And does that make it kind of a developer kit where it's a product only of interest to developers? Sort of. But again,

I think there will be software out there. I think that there's the max screen sharing connectivity stuff. And I think there's all the 3D content, like especially movies,

that it's not, it's a little, it's a little far-fetched to just say it's just a dev kit. But it will have some element of that, of like, I think a huge, I said it it earlier this is early adopters and developers who are going to be the people who buy the first 500 000 of these things i think and and that's like early adopters by

i mean by definition they're early adopters but you know what i mean it's the people who are like i can spend the money i want to live on the cutting edge and bless those people. I mean, it's me. Like I'm one of those people. Like I've been saving money aside. I've been putting money aside for six months to buy one of these things. And I would have been that person even if I wasn't doing what I do. It's one of the reasons I do what I do is because I've been that person, right? Like it's something I care about. I care about new technology.

I want to experience new technology. I think there might have even been an argument because we talked last year about developer kit early, like a year ago, more than a year ago, maybe about, is this just going to be a developer kit? Because I kept saying, you know, they could just ship this thing as a developer kit and say, we're going to spend the first year building it. And then I think what the conversation ended up being is, well, what if they ship it and they don't call it it a developer kit. But we were like, well, will people get the wrong idea? I was like, well, you know what? $3,500 gives people the right idea about it, which is it's probably not for them. And it lets the people who want to be out on the cutting edge be out there. And that's why it keeps reminding me of the early days of computers because the early days of personal computers. So I was, I grew up, I'm born in 1970.

So I grew up as a kid when the first personal computers came to schools and stuff. And I can, and eventually to our homes. And I can tell you as a, as a kid who lived through that era where it was like, we got to get these kids in front of computers because computers are the future. And you know what? They were right. They were totally right.

It was like this in the sense that they were incredibly expensive. There wasn't a lot of software for them. And everybody was asking, what do I even do with this? It was like, this is the future. We got to get this in front of the kids. And then there was like the record scratch because there were records back then too. And it's like, wait a the future. We got to get this in front of the kids. And then there was like the record scratch because there were records back then too. And it's like, wait a second. What do we do with this? What do we actually do with it? And they're like, eh, you could balance your checkbook.

It's like, yeah, I could do that in my checkbook. There were checks back then too. Boy, that was a long time ago. And they'd be like, oh, well, how about recipes? The history of the computer industry is attempts to get people to put recipes into software. Like, this is not like I use Mela. I was making stuff with Mela, a great app, yesterday. But like, I had a Mac app before that.

I had an Apple II app before that. Probably had like a Commodore PET app before that. Like, people have been trying to find ways. In fact, the word that we all now use, which is app, software application. People were desperate in the early days to find any way you could apply software to make a computer useful. And for regular people in a home. And it was hard. I mean, you see the echoes of it now with iMac sitting on on kitchen islands, but like it was a hard thing to do. And this time reminds me of that, which is

you can pay a lot of money to get a thing that nobody really knows what it's going to be, but it might be the future. And nobody really knows what the software is going to be. There's no killer app yet. Like it's very similar. similar and i'm that's why i'm okay in principle with apple putting this thing out as a product because the way it's going to go we know it's expensive we know there aren't that many of them at least and and it gives the developers who are out there some people some customers to use their products by not making a developer kit so instead of it being like door closed to non-developers, it's more like an old school tech product,

which is it's early days. If you want to spend a lot of money to be the first one on your block to have one of these things, and it's really cool, what do you do with it? I don't know. Boy, that's just like the early personal computers. And I'm not saying this thing will have the trajectory

of the early personal computer. It's a very different time and it's a like the early personal computers. And I'm not saying this thing will have the trajectory of the early personal computer. It's a very different time and it's a very different kind of technology. But I am saying, like, I'm okay with that being the audience for this product in the beginning because I think it's better than it just being for developers. And there being nobody but developers developing for other developers. Like, it's better than that. But it's still, like, you know, we're not going to call it a beta, but let's call it what it is. It's a 1.0 of a new product category, and that's okay. So, like, similarly, I've been seeing people say, like, oh, they don't know what this device is for.

They're letting consumers be the beta testers. Yeah, but that is actually kind of the point, I think. Like, and it's why it's $3,500. It's one of the many reasons why. And this is brand new, and they're going to see what people want to do with it. They've put in the basics, right? Like to make it work,

I'm sure that you can make it work with everything that's already on there. Even if you had no third-party software, like you could use it as a computer, right? You have a web browser, you have notes, you have messages, right? Like every email, like calendar, it's all in there. Like you can use it as a computer right you have a web browser you have notes you have messages right like every email like calendar it's all in there like you can use what is in there and it can be a full-fledged computer and then you can work out exactly what it is that you want to do with it and it's expensive like and the reason i say that is like if you would have made it just a

dev kit they may have not put all those things on it right like and be like oh you know it's got a web browser and you can run your app but we're not going to build you the notes app because we don't think you need it so like i prefer that isn't that developer you gotta ship it eventually right i mean a dev kit is not you shipped it right it's not it's a hedge against it and they're like no we're going to ship. We're going to treat it like a real product and we're going to see where it goes. And yeah, a lot of developers are going to buy them at the beginning.

I mean, I don't think that 500,000 developers are going to buy it, but I think between developers and early adopters and then something takes hold where word gets around. Like I fully expect that there's going to be a story at some point about how some Hollywood type or some financial type is like, oh, everybody's buying these for $3,500 and just using them to watch movies or watch movies on planes or whatever. And is that a common use case? Of course not,

but it will be a use case and that'll sell a thousand. And then this other use case will sell a few thousand. And, you know, that's how it's going to go at first i saw people referencing the fact that the apple was talking about apps like fantastic how slack and microsoft office in the press release is like a like a downside as in like oh is this all you've got to talk about is these productivity apps and i feel like for me i think it actually makes sense you'd focus on productivity because you're trying to enforce that it's a computer first. It's a computer for computer things. It's their whole goal. This is a place where they've been incredibly disciplined, right?

When we sat there in June, it's like spatial computing. It's a computer. You're going to use it as a computer. And I think part of that is they're just trying to counterbalance the perception that this is only for games. Because as a game machine, it's a bad, you know, $3,500 for a sort of limited games machine. It's not a great, you know, right? Like you got to go with what your device is capable of and try to make the case for it. And they know that people are going to play games on it.

And it's like, so it's not the point. The point is you can do all these other things with it. Will, I mean, surely people inside Apple have been doing this. And so they must have at least some confidence that this is a thing that people are going to do, but it is, it's part of their story. And it's okay for people to be skeptical of that. Talking about Fantastical Slack and Office

in the press release, I think is fine. It's what they're trying to do is say, this is a computer you put on your face. It's like an iPad and it can work with your Mac. And like, it's a new're trying to do is say this is a computer you put on your face it's like an ipad and and it can work with your mac and like it's a new way of computing and that may be 10 of use or one percent of use or 50 of use we don't know i think it's okay to be skeptical of it but not to say that it's a bad sign that it's in the press release i whether whether people use this for productivity it remains to be seen but it's consistent messaging from apple that this is a computer so people talking about especially in relation to those apps i just mentioned oh that most of these apps are

just ipad apps and not vision pro apps let me just say right like if somebody takes their existing app and compiles it for vision pro that's actually great like having used it, one of the great things about this device is you can take an app and you can make it as small or as big as you want and you can have loads of them everywhere. This isn't Stage Manager, right? Where we've got four apps and they can only be in a certain way and they're all going to overlap each other. It's like if you took ipad kind of app style design and gave it more closer to mac window

management but in an almost infinite canvas size like not everything has to be like like i don't want to do my calendar in vr right like i don't need to be in an immersive environment to grab and move my calendar appointments around, right? Like I just need the fantastic iPad app, but I can scale it as big or as small as I want and I can take it and I can put it behind me and that's just where it lives. And I always know it's over there. Hence the spatial part of the spatial computing.

Like them looking and acting like iPad apps in some instances will be what you want, but it is a I think is going to be a vastly better experience than using that app on an iPad. Some of it I think is going to be I mean, I do think that there's probably a case for

I mean, Federico, our friend Federico, who has spent so much time with iPads and so much time with Stage Manager. What is Vision Pro, but a 3D Stage Manager? I mean, seriously. So the idea that if you really want to get productivity done on an iPad, if you can run all those apps on a Vision Pro, instead of having like an iPad screen or an external display with some apps on it that you have to manage using various management techniques, imagine all those apps being floating windows that you actually can just use your hands to move around in place in space in different places

and look around and move them and resize them. Like I think there maybe is an argument that the Vision Pro is going to be the best productivity iPad ever, which is wild, but it may be, it may not be, right? We don't know. I think you got to use it for a few hours and find out if it's like even remotely reasonable to use this thing for that time, but maybe. And then the other thing is to use things as utilities, as ancillary utilities. So let's say, and I don't, I'm not thrilled with their facetime implementation right i'm surprised that they're not doing something like what meta has done where you you put multiple people in the same virtual space with them even if they're just memojis i think that that you know i'm sure they tried it and didn't like it or couldn't build it or

whatever but like having people in a facetime window, I'm not as impressed by, but let's just say for collaboration, whatever it might be, the idea that you're collaborating with remote people using this device and they're on screen in some way, you're going to need to refer to documents and maybe Slack messages and your calendar. and so the idea of using it potentially as a collaboration and communication tool but you still need to look at the document maybe you're editing the document together right maybe you are talking about your next meeting and you can pull up fantastical and say oh yeah i'm free at this time like there are lots of secondary reasons where it's like i'm not i'm going to probably put on this thing and say,

let's get busy with Fantastical. I'm going to do a lot of calendar stuff now, right? That's not what it's for. It's for the thing being on the side while you're doing the main thing you're doing, which is probably collaboration, I would think. I don't know. People want this to be a productivity device but it will have

all the limitations of ios and ipad os productivity so disappointment looms um i don't know i don't know what to say about that one i think we i think we sort of covered it the idea is it will have it will probably okay will the apps have limitations that are bound by iOS and iPadOS? Yes, probably. But I just said it about Stage Manager. It's a different paradigm, right? Because you've got these floating items. And part of the disappointment that I have with iPadOS is in the lack of getting your multitasking and getting your different apps in different places and all set up, right? Like Stage Manager is okay for that. But like, I think that this is going to be different because you're going to have the different apps in different places. It doesn't necessarily mean,

if you're like, oh, but the iPad app isn't good and the Mac app is, yeah, that's going to be a limitation. I use a lot of iPad apps and they're pretty good. But sure, there is a whole mac story here too right the idea that you could travel with a small mac a macbook air and flip it open in a hotel room and have a giant display because you're now controlling using that ultra fast screen sharing technology that they put in sonoma for a reason for this reason you are now using your mac it's not mac running on device but you are using a mac whatever that mac is like there

are other stories here well the mac the mac becomes a window right it's like the thing that we've wanted on ipad for a while for a long time which is like just give me the macintosh like escape hatch right like yeah i'm doing things with my apps but i need to do this one thing and this device can't do it it's like the idea of having like my mac is there and it's doing what it's doing and then around it are all the other windows that i'm using and there it's all kind of working together like i think it has that hatch to jump out of but i also i feel like apple's got to know right that like if this is gonna be a new platform they have to to take the learnings of ipad os right that would be my hope and that like it does what it does do you want this to do more? My hope is they do, and they will, as we move into Vision OS 2 and 3, they might open it up more and more.

I don't know what that's going to look like, but at this point, I'm choosing to have faith in it rather than assuming that it's going to be disappointing. rather than assuming that it's going to be disappointing. Now your quote here, I'm going to take it wrong, but for good reason, which is all the limitations for productivity, so disappointment looms. I know what they mean, right? I think they mean the software limitations. But I'm going to tell you, the number one limitation of iOS and iPadOS is screen size. Yeah. And that won't be on the Vision Pro.

No. Because you'll be able to open multiple apps in multiple windows at huge sizes that they've never been in before, or at small sizes. And so that would be part of my counter, is that there is one huge limitation of iOS and iPadOS that the Vision Pro won't have, which is screen space. And screen space is very important. Like, very important.

It's the main reason that I don't use my iPad to get my general work done now. It's not the apps. It's how many of them I can look at at any one point. And Stage Manager doesn't do it for me, personally. Like, it really doesn't. I don't feel like I get anything out of Stage Manager that a Mac doesn't give me better. Where I plug an iPad into

a display, I might as well just plug a Mac into a display because Stage Manager on the Mac, I prefer or at least just don't even use it and I can have as many windows open as I want and I can freeform size them wherever I like. And I get that with this on a scale which I have never seen before, right? Mm-hmm.

I do wonder, this is sort of a tangent, but I do wonder how many, how much productivity on this device might involve accessories put it that way but like i'm wondering if we're going to be here in three months saying okay first thing you should do with vision pro is get a keyboard and pair it to it that is actually one of my uh one of my criticisms here that i picked up the virtual keyboard looks terrible to use if i need a keyboard with me to get work done why not just have my laptop well i mean the screen's going to be way bigger than your laptop because it's going to be the whole room or the whole virtual environment and that's the reason but the keyboard yeah that

that that poke at the keys keyboard it it totally looks bad but here's something i said about last week that i got a sort of through the grapevine general nod to, which is we didn't get to use voice commands, but they're there and they're very useful. So the idea that you can just say, um, lady open fantastic cow and it opens and you can, and this is important. And then you can be in a text window. And if it's just a short amount of text, you can just use dictation, right? Like all those features that are already there, but as opposed to using, like, if your hands are on your iPad or on your iPhone and the screen keyboard slides up and you go to do on a vision pro, you might be like, uh, I don't really want to use that dumb keyboard. You might be more inclined to actually use the dictation, which

is pretty good, right? Apple's dictation has come a long way. It's real-time dictation now, and you can edit as you go. And so I think there's going to be more voice. But yeah, I also think that if you're doing something in VR and you actually want to do text input at a larger scale, you probably will want a keyboard. You might want a keyboard and a trackpad depending on, you know, if you're controlling a mac i imagine the mac use case is going to be a laptop where you're actually using the keyboard and the trackpad on the laptop but it's controlling the screen that you're seeing but i don't know we don't know any of this some people at apple probably know but we don't know the last thing i have is about apps again but giving the developers the ability to

opt out of having their apps show on the Vision Pro will mean that the app store will be a bit of a wasteland. And that was a mistake. I've heard that lots of opt-outs are happening. And I think that there's a balance here, which is on the one hand, Apple wants as many of those apps in the store as possible. And they're going to really try to push the idea that they're in there. On the other hand,

I totally understand that if I'm a developer and I've never seen my app run on that platform, that I would be really reluctant to allow it to run because the support burden falls on me and I don't even have one. Yeah. So I think Apple would be making a lot of developers angry if they didn't give them the opportunity to opt out. Yep. And so they have to do it. But I do, I have heard through the grapevine that there have been lots of opt outs. Like there were running apps on Apple Silicon max, right? Which is a huge, to this day, a huge frustration.

Yep. Because there are lots of very useful apps that I would like to use on my Mac. Then again, I talked to the developers and they say things like, well, yeah, but I use, like, I talked to a developer who uses a utility connected to the music app. And I said, where's the Mac version? And his response was, well, we connect to the music app on iOS using this system. But on the Mac, we have to connect using a different system because we have to connect to the Mac music app, which is a different app. And it works differently. And it doesn't work right.

I'm like, OK. All right. Like, I get it. I see it. But I hate it. I want to finish out today, Jason, with some Ask Upgrade questions, also about the Vision Pro. Oh, yay. For as much as we can answer these questions for people, we will try our best.

So, pew, pew, pew, pew, pew. Oh, thank you. I didn't give you the typical lead in there. No, I wasn't sure. Are we talking in general terms about Ask Upgrade, or are we rolling right into Ask Upgrade? We can roll right in. Well, the lasers are signed now, so they've gone off, so we're in. You can roll right in. Well, the lasers are signed now, so they've gone off, so we're in. Ian says,

I have three prescriptions for my eyes, one for reading, another for medium distance, and one for long distance. Which one should I upload during the Vision Pro purchase? Now, we'll preface this by saying we cannot give you the answer to this question for sure, right?

And I hope Apple will give you the answer to that question. Yes. But video editor Chip, chip hi chip our video editor here pointed uh me to an faq from a company that makes lenses for the quest and i'll put a link to that it's gonna be called vr wave like they make this is what they do they make this stuff and this is what chip used for his quest this company recommended distance lenses for vr so maybe that's what you'll need but ultimately you're gonna have to try and get that answer from apple but distance makes sense to me but yeah i don't know yeah my understanding is that most vr stuff and i assume vision pro works like this more or less, you're thinking, oh, they're right up in front of my eyes,

so I need to do near adjustment. But that's not actually how it works because they bend the light. They change the light. And your eyes feel like it's coming from, and I believe it's a fixed focal distance. It may be more dynamic than that,

but usually with VR, it's like a fixed focal distance of what? Three meters meters nine feet away and so you do want distance i hope apple will say this because i also have i have computer glasses which are are near glasses they're for like three feet away from me two three feet away from me and they're what they are is a much reduced version of my prescription and then i've got my regular glasses which are progressive so it's distance viewing at the top and reading at the bottom um and and so like what do i do well i my understanding is that what i will use is my main prescription that's what i used on the meta quest and it works fine yep and not the computer

glasses because what they want what they're trying to do is get a fixed distance. And this is one of the things that they haven't figured out, I think, in VR yet, which is how do you make it so that the thing right in front of your face feels like it's right in front of your face. And the thing that's way far away feels way far away in terms of your vision. That's not really how it works. It's all, everything is sort of at a similar focus plane. So it should probably be your main prescription, but I'm sure Apple will communicate this because they have to. They haven't. I wish they would. They haven't, but they have to.

Not on sale yet, right? They haven't actually asked any member of the public for their prescription yet. I can tell you that they read my standard glasses when I went in, right? Me too. And it looked fine. So that's my guess is that they're going to want your regular glasses and not your computer glasses. Nick asks, do you think Apple could be waiting to ship new peripherals, keyboards, mice, that kind of thing until after

the Vision Pro ships? Maybe they include some updates that are more tailored to it. It seems like a keyboard and trackpad will be crucial for Vision Pro productivity. I don't know. I mean, I do wonder about, like, if you're being productive in places without a tabletop, if Apple will finally make, like, a magic keyboard-trackpad combo, but, like, that utility,

or that little accessory that's out there? Well, I would honestly hope they could have... maybe that they do some switching between devices right because you mentioned that would be nice how does it work with the mac is the keyboard and trackpad attached to the mac or can it be attached to the headset and it uses the mac right like which how does that work and if they are separate i would really like to have one keyboard and i can use it on either device depending on what i'm doing so maybe there could be some fun stuff in there but they could have done that at any point like maybe this is some i do detect some like sometimes ask upgrade questions or wishes i think this is a wish from nick that there's a good reason they haven't done this yet we all would like updated peripherals uh this is a wish from Nick that there's a good reason they haven't done this yet.

We all would like updated peripherals. This is probably, I mean, I think this is probably on Apple's list of reasons to update their peripherals, but I think that's, it doesn't strike me as being enough to ship a new product, right? But I mean, we're way past time that I expected new keyboards and trackpads to ship. So I feel like any moment they could ship, I'm not sure that Vision Pro shipping is the reason you ship them. Matthew asks, do you think that the Vision Pro could bring back skeuomorphic design and we could see a resurgence over the next few years to make devices feel more lifelike? I mean, skeuomorphism, I feel like it's going to come back because everything comes back,

right? It's like fashion. Everything will come back. And I think maybe that the iOS designs that beat skeuomorphic design out of the equation, it was probably extreme and there's going to be a bounce back if there isn't already. Vision Pro vision pro is interesting though because i think vision pro in a lot of cases skeuomorphism is what you should do right like there are a lot of things that you're going to be placing in scenes especially the the like the volumes part of the the way you can make a little 3d thing that you can put around that should look like the thing that you're making it look like. Yeah, if you're creating a 3D software object, it has got to be skeuomorphism, right? Like that's what it is, is skeuomorphism. If it's a piece of software that's now being turned into a 3D object. I keep thinking of things like if it's something that emits audio, so like Overcast or Broadcasts, some app like that.

So like Overcast or Broadcasts, some app like that, I'd like to be able to have like a little radio or speaker or something and set it somewhere and then have the audio come from that point in space, right? Like that would be really cool. That's as skeuomorphic as it gets. And I wonder if that takes off and there's a lot of skeuomorphic stuff happening in the system if there is uh some follow-on behavior to that that runs on other platforms but maybe maybe maybe not but i feel like vision pro is a place where skeuomorphism actually does make sense in a lot of cases i'm going to include a link in the show notes to a youtube video it's made by a relay fm member damian who posted this in discord the other day. And Damian makes an app called Voice in a Can,

which is a third-party app for the Amazon Echo Assistant. And Damian has made a version for the Vision Pro, and it effectively puts something that looks like an Echo Dot in your room,

and you look at it, and you talk to it. And that's how it works. Which I just think is super cool. And what does it respond with? Either by voice or it can show you pieces of UI. Like if you ask it for a timer, it puts up a little timer window. Oh, so you're essentially talking to the app and giving the app input by talking to it. Correct. And the app is responding yeah oh i like it it's an idea of this little uh and it's using the amazon echo system like it it talks to the amazon echo api that exists like oh i see so it is actually using the the alexa system yeah interesting interesting and i just think it's

a really cute little idea of like combining the stuff so you just look at it so you look at it you do like the finger gesture and then you speak and then you let go and it takes the order and presents you with something maybe it's a shopping list maybe it's a timer or an answer to a question i like it that's a nice idea i think that there's i mean we know that our friend David Smith is working on some you know widget smithy kind of things for this and there's a lot of potential we talked about there's no widgets on vision os but like the idea that you could going back to how we started the show when I talked about being a minimalist one of the things that I love is

ambient information right it's around and I can look at it and i feel like this fits with my minimalism i don't want it in my face i want to be able to like look at it and say oh yeah and then look away and that's i think about software and vision pro like that too the idea that you could take again because you've got unlimited sort of screen space take an item that you might want to see every now and then like hanging a picture or a clock in your office might want to see every now and then like hanging a picture or a clock in your office and put it somewhere, put it on the wall, put it on a table or whatever, and just put this widget like thing there so that it's there and it's doing its thing. And I can look over at it and get something out of it, the weather, the time, whatever

it is, and then look back to what I'm doing. I think that that's got a lot of potential. I think that's really interesting. and then look back to what I'm doing. I think that that's got a lot of potential. I think that's really interesting. So I'm going to put a link in the show notes to a post on Mastodon that David put up the other day when he was like playing around with clocks.

And he says, after three years of spending much of my working life designing rounded rectangle widgets, it's a delight to be able to now make free, be free to make widgets in whatever shape makes sense for the content. Because so there aren't actually widgets, right? But he can make windows for the content because so he's there aren't actually widgets right but he can make windows and the windows act like he's widgets and so and also what i like is like he no longer needs to worry about like building a a preview because you just

build the widget like you're just building it and you're seeing it and it runs from your app yeah so great this is the kind of stuff that makes me excited right like these things we're talking about here of like these are people they are poking at the edges of what it's been like to make apps right where like now like these are two developers who make ios, and they have made versions of these that exist in space differently. I don't understand how you can't, if you listen to the show, you look at that,

you can't be excited about that, right? I'm not saying that you need to be so excited about it, you should drop $4,000 with Apple, but you should be so excited about it that you're like, I can't wait for when I want to buy this. You know? That's how I feel. Right, or I can't, or even like like i can't wait for when i want to buy this you know that that's how i right or i can't or even like i can't wait to i would say i made a pitch like this on on uh

twit last week or on mac break weekly which is you don't have to want it you could even think it's dumb but like i think this is going to be a great year because of this apple one of our most powerful technology companies has built a product that is packed with cutting-edge technology it is it is so far beyond if you hold one of these you're like oh my god it's unbelievable what this thing has and yeah it's high price tag but like just go with me here it is one of our most powerful companies and a company that we all sort of recognize, I think, is being really making some of the best products in the technology industry. Doing a multi-year, maybe even like decade-long, billions of dollars spent effort to build a brand new Apple platform that has a completely different interaction model that is largely untested. There have been, again, you know, it's not like there aren't VR

headsets out there, but it's like, it's a pretty green space, pretty empty space. And a whole bunch of incredibly creative, innovative people who are iOS developers and Mac developers who are running into this space this year. It's hard not to be interested in what's going to happen and what we're all going to learn. And it might be that we learn that nobody wants this, but it might be that we learn that people do want this for certain things. And what are those things? We don't know. We have to learn. And things like clever software developers, as you said, kind of pushing the envelope and exploring the edges.

That's my favorite stuff in the technology industry because we are watching and that moment where you're like oh i see and i'll tell you i'm sure that a lot of this stuff has been anticipated by people at apple but i will say there's going to be a lot of stuff that has not been anticipated by people at apple and then when you mentioned the amazon echo app i thought well gee it really ought to be you really ought to have the option when you're in that mode of having siri actually be you know they have the little color orb that comes up when you trigger siri to have siri be an actual orb that you can set somewhere and that when you talk to it it lights up and you hear the audio coming from it instead of like from the voice of god so that i can put my siri blob where

i want it in this room and have it be a physical object or the idea that when they do widgets or something like it for vision os that that what david has learned will inform what they do because they're like oh that's how that works right and that is a thing we learned about a particular kind of computing environment that we didn't know before. Now, might this all be academic and do you still not want to buy one or see yourself ever buying one? That's okay if that's the case. But I just think for anybody who's interested in technology, seeing how this plays out and seeing what people learn and don't learn and do and don't do, I just think that's going to be a fascinating thing. Bottom line. If you would like to send in any feedback,

follow up or questions of your own for this week's episode, you can always go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send that in. Until next week's episode, you can check out Jason's work online at sixcolors.com you can hear his podcast here on relay fm and at the incomparable.com you can listen to me here on relay fm and check out my work at cortexbrand.com we're also on social media if you want to find us on mastodon jason is at jay snell on zeppelin.flights i am at imyke on mike.social you can find the show as upgrade at relay fm.social where you'll be able to find video clips of the show but also of course

on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube where we are at UpgradeRelay on all of these. We're on threads. I am at iMike and Jason is at jSnell. Thank you to our members who support us with Upgrade Plus. You can get longer ad free versions of the show each and every

week by going to Getupgradeplus.com. Thank you to our sponsors this week, Delete Me and Notion, but most of all, thank you for listening. Until next time, say goodbye, Jason Snow. Goodbye, Mike Hurley.