Upgrade - 501: The Perfect Noodling Computer

Episode Date: February 26, 2024

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 501 today's show is brought to you by squarespace and uni pizza ovens it is february 26 2024 my name is mike hurley i I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hello, Jason. Happy February 26th, Mike. To all who celebrate. To all who celebrate, yes. Whoever they are, wherever they are. I have a Snow Talk question for you. It comes from Seb. Seb would like to know, how much has the video version of Upgrade complicated the recording process when you are away from home? Hmm. Hmm. Well, for me, so i was away from home last week it only

complicated it because i use actually i use for both travel and for when i'm here at home i use camo with my iphone as my camera i don't use continuity camera because I found that continuity camera is a little flakier than camo and the direct wired connection. I have more control over, over it. So I'm using camo instead of just continuity camera. So the real complication is just that I have to bring something to put the camera on to get the proper angle. And I actually have got now a little setup where i've got a i bought a i bought a little tripod a little cheap tripod on amazon that has a like flip out phone holder attachment like a glyph except it's built into it and it's got a little tilt head and

stuff and then it i but i didn't like the legs but it's actually you know standard uh tripod connector uh and my insta 360 try little selfie stick tripod thing with the the the the cheap one on amazon didn't have an adjustable like you can't lift it up and push it down it's only one height even though it's got the tilt head and stuff the insta 360 combination selfie stick tripod thing that's its whole thing is it's super adjustable. So I actually am using the base from the, I'm using the Insta360 thing with the head of the other cheap tripod thing. And it's, it folds up real nice. It works with my phone. It fits on the desk at my mom's house where I was doing the show last week. It's great. So that is my only, I'd say my only real complication because I got,

I got USB cords and I got my phone with me. So, um, there's a little bit of like lighting issues. They're, I'm more concerned about them for when I do Mac break weekly, because that is a video show primarily, or at least intent produced that way. And so I'm a little more concerned about that, but you know, even then I have a, I have actually have a green screen at my mom's house and the lighting is very good because there's a wall out the window that in the morning bounces the light off of the stucco wall and into my face. It's actually shamed me about how bad my lighting is at my studio because the lighting is better at my mom's house. It's true. It is better there. So other than a little bit of brain

power to like think about it and having invested in that tripod which i also use like when i'm in the studio b back of my house i use the same setup so you know not a lot but a little bit i mean more than not worrying about it at all how about you i like the idea of the green screen at your mom's because you could just green screen your own office of the green screen at your mom's because you could just green screen your own office look at everybody look at last week's smack break weekly and it looks like i'm in my office oh really oh yeah oh i need to go check that out i'm gonna go look at yeah yeah i need to i need to build a video loop that's my next to do is to build a video loop of my office why would you need that though because i've got

so i've got the the um for mac break i turn on the lava lamp in my background and it has little bubbles moving and there's just a bubble that's suspended forever and that that's the that's the tell and i actually kind of love the idea that it's really good jason right looks really good because you blurred it too right so like oh yeah yeah it's got i put the bokeh in there just to make it a little less obvious that it was uh yeah exactly because the funny thing is uh alex lindsey i assume is sitting in his actual office and has a really good camera or whatever and so he has a bit of a blur so yes you're doing it too that's very funny to me you're just like well you can play it that game yeah yes that's right i could do that too anyway i did get it i did get a message last week from somebody who said wow

do you have a new setup you looked great on mac break weekly and i thought oh boy i like it's a worse it sounded great i'm like it's a worse microphone it's not any different camera it's the lighting i will just say like we didn't mention it on last week's episode but like you were using a different mic. I hate that mic for you. Like, and I've said to you before, it's just because you,

I am used to a very specific sound of Jason and I don't like it. I don't even like the, um, the USB-C version of that microphone that you have for you. Yeah, no, that's what that is. So,

so I use, I use the, it's podcasting nerdery, but like there's a a commonly promoted by us like best cheap starter podcast mic which is the audio technica mic and i traveled with that because i made two stops i went to la and i went to my mom's house i was gone for six days and i felt i needed a little more space in my suitcase. I think in hindsight, I should have just taken the MV7, which is what I have in the back of the house, which is very similar to the SM7B I have out here. I chose not to. And then I had the moment where I thought, you know, I could just leave the audio technical mic at my mom's house with the green screen and the mic stand and all of these other things and just kind of leave it there so I don't need to travel with it. And I had that thought of like, no, I don't want this to be the mic that I use when I'm here. So in future, I'm going to travel with the Shure mic, is a better sound it's more it's more like this one um but yeah to actually answer because i got sidetracked by your incredible uh video background don't tell anybody it's secret you'll never know now never know it has been well documented especially in upgrade plus i am have been putting a lot less effort into the video than jason has mainly because really you are doing

a podcast that i think in mac break weekly i don't know if incongruously is the word i'm looking for but like twitch shows go video the video first even though they're tv shows that have an audio podcast version but they're tv shows they're built as tv shows leo's history yeah it's tv so you know you kind of have to put the effort in there where we're very much just playing around with stuff and the clips really i think that you know it's fine uh by the way i will implore people to check out either our instagram tiktok or youtube i put links in the show notes if you've not if you have any of platforms, if you're not following us on those, you should. The short clips especially, they're just really good fun.

You may think to yourself, but I've already heard them say that. It's really fun to watch back our reactions to the things that we say sometimes, and our editor Chip puts in some fun little details. Sometimes there's also stuff that we never actually spoke about in the show, but we did record it, but it's more interesting as a clip than it is as being in the show yeah so they're

there for you but i i have a whole plan that i delayed because of vision pro expenses to make my setup better for video so like i have a whole plan i'm very excited about it actually it's gonna look better and once i've actually done that my video when i travel will be able to be better because previously i've just been using when i was traveling i just used my laptop my camera which is terrible i hate it um but i'm actually planning on buying a refurbished iphone for my camera in the studio and then i'll just take that with me and have that as like my camera for if we record when i'm traveling so it it is just in general though the video has complicated things but yes not to a level that we haven't got used to and also there is kind of like we're still audio first like if something goes wrong with the video

it is kind of just like oh well that's what happened yeah you know i'd say there's a there's a almost an effort cut off like when i went to my daughter's graduation from college i was i recorded an episode of upgrade in an airbnb and you know what it was on the macbook air webcam yeah in bad lighting it looked terrible but it crossed it crossed the line of i i just i couldn't do it now i've got a better setup. Like we're building, I think what I would say is we're building our setups to be, to get us across the line of this is appropriate. But it has required me to buy like different tripods and try different setups up. We'll get there about it. So not nothing, Seb, not nothing, but it's fine.

Like we're also not overdoing it because we are a podcast first and the video is entirely secondary. That said, I hope that for our podcast listeners or people who don't listen a lot to podcasts because or anything but i do think that there are people out there who don't get podcasts they don't understand it or they don't it doesn't work in their life and they love youtube and they have youtube stuff on all the time and i would like i would like us to make our show available there and if we can make it available with our faces instead of just like a logo on a screen i think that would be better so you know what we should do which i don't think we have done but we should, is actually tell YouTube that our channel is a podcast. Oh, maybe we could do that. Can we do that? I don't know how you do it. How do we break that to them?

It's doable. There is a thing that you can do. I mean, this is like a weird thing that Cortex is it, but we didn't do it. YouTube did it for us. Yeah, oh, interesting. didn't do it youtube did it yeah oh interesting but i know that there is a way now to kind of be like hey this is a podcast and what that allows is people can watch the video but then they can also tap a button and it turns off the video if they just want to listen to us as a podcast so another funny little data point um a podcast that i mentioned during the upgrade is the rest is history podcast i really like with the two british historians i i found their youtube channel while i was traveling oh and i watched one of their episodes as a video on youtube because it turns out they they have recently started doing exactly

what we're doing right down to the fact that one of them's facing left and one of them's facing right and they're recording it separately from their it's a it's hilarious it's like exact exactly what we're doing and i i kind of nodded along and i was like, okay, this is great. Like if I want to watch them in a YouTube context, I can, but if I just want to listen to their audio episodes, which is true most of the time, I can do that too. And then they also do little clips, which I enjoy. And the Flophouse does that. They don't post the full episodes, but they post the clips. And I like watching clips of things I've already heard because I get to see their faces and it's the funniest of the jokes from that episode. And so that's, I don't mind listening to the funny jokes again. So anyway,

this is a lot. I wonder, is this listener Seb who I actually met last weekend in LA? Maybe it is. Anyway. Hi, listener Seb. Let's do some Vision Pro follow-up. So we had an anonymous person write in and they said, I work in Apple retail. From mid-January, we started receiving training for the Vision Pro on delivering the perfect script for the demo of the Apple Vision Pro. There was no training on what light seal numbers mean. Vision Pros are meant to be picked up in store. So everyone in theory gets the right light seal and band size before they come into us but we have no guidance on what their sizes and numbers actually mean we just follow a questionnaire

to get a new size if requested which can change every time on how subjectively the person answers sick questions uh-huh yeah you can literally game it yeah um because you can do that online too when you're doing a return because i got the 14 or whatever and I'm sending it back because it's just not. Or I have sent it back now because it didn't fit at all. It really put all the pressure on my cheekbones. And I'm not convinced I have the right size. I think the 21 is maybe the right size for me. But I've sort of tried this and failed and I don't know what I'm going to do.

But this follows up what we were saying before, which is lots of focus on the demo and getting every word right and then kind of being at sea when it comes to the sizing stuff which i think they should do a much better job of yep vision pro units are cracking crack gate crack gate how is a vision pro like a g4 cube crack gate cracks crack gate so uh there's been a bunch of articles written about this uh it's i believe started with um a selection of users on the vision pro subreddit posting that they have cracks along the center of the front screens at their vision pro so right in basically right in the middle um no one obviously knows at this point why this is happening.

It appears to be, you would assume, some kind of manufacturing issue. One of the things to me that really kind of lent credence to this, because you never really know what's going on with this kind of stuff, is it actually happened

to Engadget's review unit as well. The same crack. So it's essentially on the middle of the front glass is where it's happening there's a bunch of images uh in the verge article and the engadget article that i put in the show notes um but yeah it's definitely making me every time i pick up my vision pro in the morning just taking a look just like oh it got the crack no that's great there you go and check it out yeah no i i mean it's 1.0 hardware it's incredibly complicated

i'm actually not surprised and i would imagine i mean either apple will say look it doesn't affect your you know we know that it it might happen and it doesn't affect it or they'll say we will replace it yeah you know send send it to us and we'll replace it or whatever so but it does seem like so far like with the people that have had it happen like it isn't affecting anything but it right it's there it seems to be at the moment mostly a cosmetic issue which i think is also good because if something like that happens and it disrupts the cameras or whatever nobody wants to see you in this thing anyway but not great matter what it looks like um what's new with your vision pro experience oh what's new with the vision pro yeah um so i mentioned i traveled last week i mentioned i used it on the plane

had the weird errors uh used it a little bit in phoenix have used it here too um big story for me i think is that i went on the developer beta oh god jason why why'd you do you know because it's my job i figured like okay let's try it I can report, I think the personas are better. Yeah. I did a very quick persona capture in Phoenix when I was not at my best, and I still think it is a much better representation of me than the one I was using before. Okay. using before okay so i think the personas are better however i'm just gonna say uh don't don't put the beta on people um the eye tracking and other input stuff is just a total mess i can't i was writing a lot i think one of the things that i found in the vision pro that i like is that it

is another place for me to write i can sit in you know on the couch or whatever and i can kind of isolate and just get a screen in front of me with like runestone on it. And I can write articles and, and have things to the side, but like mostly I'm focused on the thing. I like that. It's like, like writing on the iPad. I've got a little Bluetooth keyboard. It's great. But, um, I kind of can't do it on the developer beta because eye tracking is all over the place. Input is all over the place. I get lots of inaccurate clicks, clicks when I'm not moving my fingers together. My eye tracking is not looking at the right place. Even if I rerun eye tracking,

it just doesn't seem right. It is kind of broken. So I'm here to warn you not to do it because no improved persona is worth this so and i i'm assuming there's kind of no way to go back right well i could i could put it in reset mode since i have a developer strap i could actually do that but i'm not gonna i'm just gonna i'm just gonna grin and bear it and and that's, it's fine. It's fine. I actually similarly, I've had some flakiness of eye tracking and I'm on the shipping version.

Like today I had to redo my eye tracking again to get it to work. It just, I would look at something and it would select it for a second and flick away. It's like I couldn't move any windows. I have also noticed sometimes the system knows where you're looking, even though it's not highlighting that, if that makes sense. So sometimes I've found that I can look at something,

and it's not highlighting, but if I pinch, it will do what I want. And so I think there was a combo of both things happening. But once I redid my eye tracking it it was it it was perfect like it worked perfectly again but you know i i don't know why that's happening right like which is just interesting it's like what's changed but right this is the bleeding edginess of this computer it's like something it is perceiving something differently i have no idea what it is yeah it could be something on your face it could be that your you your your hair has grown or been cut and the fit is a little different and

so the angle is a little different right like there's so many things it could be yeah so i kind of i'm giving the i'm giving the machine grace right in doing these things and not being like oh this is so annoying but it is just a thing that I'm spotting. I have kind of set on something for me for where I think this device really works best. So I leave my Vision Pro at my studio.

I don't take it home because it's just too much weight to just keep moving backwards and forwards. So I leave it there. And so i'm mostly using it when i'm here which actually works best for me anyway of like a way that i would want to use it like when i'm at home i'm either going to be wanting to spend time with my wife or be playing video games and the vision pro is not the right device for me for either of those things and so

it would be mostly wasted at home and so what i've been doing mostly is like i'm trying to do my like intense work in the mornings with the vision pro on and then also just using it sporadically through today and where i've found the device to be the most enjoyable and the way that i kind of think of it is the vision pro is like the perfect noodling computer, which what I mean by that is, so like there is a point in the day where I say today, I've done my work in the morning of preparing upgrade, which is like the biggest job I do on a Monday. And then I have one meeting, then I have the stretch of like a stretch of like 90 minutes before I have another meeting. And so during that time, typically, I'm just kind of noodling around. I'm

doing this little task here, reading these messages here in Slack, looking at this email here or whatever. And I kind of consider this as like noodling around. And iPads are really good for this, I find. You're just like poking around, you're going from this to this. Hey, what's going on over here? Vision Pro is perfect for this because you can do all of the noodling with all of the apps open, right? And that's what I like about it. Like I can just set a bunch of apps

and I'm like, what's going on over here? Oh, can we go check on these tabs? Oh, like in today, I was like looking at some home furnishing stuff and I was like, oh, just like clicking around this website, which is really nice with the eye tracking. Like, oh, I like that cushion. This looks nice.

That looks nice. Let me add that to a note, send it to my wife. Like that kind of work, the Vision Pro is the best computer I own at it. Like it's better than an iPad because it's many iPads, right? It's like six iPads at once. It's many iPads.

And so I find for like the intense work stuff, it's definitely getting the job done. But still, I'm mostly just using the Mac inside of it. And at that point, it's not that much better. It's better in some ways, worse than others. I think that this could be improved by there being a native Google Docs application. Like I think that will help if and when that ever happens.

Because using Google Docs in Safari while it works is not ideal. Maybe it will be better, but I'll probably still prefer my Mac for it. So I find it to be good at the intense stuff, but excellent at the kind of noodling around stuff. I agree with you. I have the same sort of feelings that you end up kind of like flipping around to a bunch of different stuff. And, um, part of that is what it's good at right now. And what are the apps are available?

Um, I did watch a movie in it for the incomparable. I watched most of a movie, um, just that was my homework in it because it was a bigger screen. So I was, you know, I was literally sitting in my living room,

not four feet from my 4k tv and i was watching it on the vision pro instead because lauren was gone and i was uh i why not so i did and uh it was nice because it was a huge screen and it was fun there's also an app that i wanted to uh point people to which is television from Sandwich. This is just... Yes. This is the exact kind of thing that I want to exist on the Vision Pro because it's just like fun and joyful.

It is an app that currently you can watch media you've downloaded or media from your iCloud, but they seem to be working on the ability to watch streaming services within this app as well, where you essentially can select a television from history, from the beginnings of televisions to now. One of my favorite ones is a wall of televisions that you can watch media on, and you essentially watch it like a screen. It's a 3D model of televisions from history.

And they exist in space. They're not like... When I opened this app, I thought, oh, okay. This is the kind of Vision Pro app there aren't very many of right now. And that I thought would be the ones that would truly take it. And I understand why there aren't because it is not something you can do by converting an iPad app, right? Or easily. It's much harder.

And so it's a 3D object, you know, in 3D space that then plays a video right now. Yeah, it was limited to on the screen mapped onto the screen of the TV or TVs. So like I was able to get an old TV with rabbit ears and place it on my coffee table

and play an old star trek episode on it i played an old star trek episode then i played a the star wars holiday special and i played an old doctor who episode because i wanted that vibe of old four by three tv set with rabbit ears and it was just kind of delightful but i also like the idea i was talking to dan stern who worked on this product our friend of the show who uh who works at sandwich and dan uh you know what i said to dan was this is this is the kind of app i was hoping for and he said you know it's just so easy to leave it somewhere like off to the side and the way it works is like the audio comes out of it spatially it's literally like you're setting a tv set somewhere in your space and then the tv sets there and and and you can play it and what they've said is like the use case here is you

kind of want to if you want like some background stuff which for some people is super distracting and for other people it's comfortable so this is the idea is like you want something playing in the background off to the side that you can look at and look back and it's in this little TV and like, is it novel? Yes, it is a novelty app for sure. But at the same time I look at it and I think, yeah, that's kind of what I want for something like broadcasts or other audio apps, where I kind of want to put essentially like a radio or an object that is just kind of emitting and put it in the corner, put it on a wall and have it be not, it doesn't need to be like a Vision Pro OS window that's like an iPad app for that part of it. I just kind of want it to be, especially if you think about the future of Vision OS and potentially having objects that

permanently live in a space that we all kind of expect that they will do where if i hang this thing in my house right in this place it'll i can say keep it here geographically i just this is where i want this thing um that it opens up a lot of possibilities so it's just it's just a fun app i really loved having i watched most of a star trek episode on it it was great yeah i really look forward to when they put YouTube in there, which they're working on. Because I could imagine having one of those lo-fi beat to chill to things and just putting it in the corner, looking over and seeing the image,

but there's music in the space. This is the kind of stuff that also I hoped would exist, just these fun little toys, but they're useful, right? But they're joyful in a way and i think there will be more i think that it requires two things for a lot of developers which is like time and effort well three things time effort and a genuine love for the platform because the audience is small right now and there's this requires a lot of work right also makes me wonder if vision os should have something and i know they've got a lot of work right also makes me wonder if vision os should have

something and i know they've got a lot on their on their plate for vision os but if they should have something that's sort of like what picture in picture is on ios and ipad os and mac os which is the ability for apps to say you know knock out place you know place this video out and then the ability for other apps to say, I'm a player for that. Because imagine if you could do that, then Sandwich's television could be a player for the picture-in-picture. And then there wouldn't need to be compatibility things built into the app. You could build a player that is like television. And then all the video apps would just, you could just send it out to that other app i wonder if you could do that because it's it seems very similar to the

picture in picture api i would love it um something like that but failing that yeah i hope i hope sandwich builds in some stuff for this i'd love again it's like whether it's them working with various services or whether it's third-party apps maybe working with Sandwich, which would also be cool. Like if you're the developer of Plex and you want to come to the Vision Pro, do you talk to Sandwich and say, can we license television for our Plex player or work with you or something, right? Yeah. I by the way it's it's so silly right like it's because a lot of the because they're so good they're marketing it's just obviously they're so good they're just so good and you know the idea of like we invented television like it's the

you know i like it and they're very sure like i love it so much imagine object in your space that's playing video on it. We call it television. I think if I remember rightly in the video, there's a television in the room that they're doing the promo stuff in and they're just moving it around, but it's like an actual TV. It's just, it's fantastic.

We call it television. It's just, yes, it's delightful, but also, again, it is a spatial piece of software yeah now our friend james friend of the show james thompson uh he's got a he's got a first like experimental beta of dice by p calc that does this too right where the dice tray is in your space and like again it's one of those apps i go ah yes there here we go right it's software but it's existing in a space. Not every piece of software needs to be like that, right? I don't need Slack to appear in a frame like you could hang it on a wall, right? I don't need that. I don't need that. But for some stuff, I think it's a really fun use of what this product is. Yes, I agree. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace,

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upgrade and the code upgrade when you sign up for 10% of your first purchase and to show your support for the show. Our thanks to Squarespace for their support of this show and all of RelayFM. Jason, what is that sound? Can you hear it in the background? It's the neighing of horses it sounds

like horses because saddle up partner it's time to return to the rumor roundup oh how i have missed ye i spent so much time today just going through my uh my apple note that i save of links to just try and pick like what are we going to talk about? There's basically a month's worth of rumors, but I've decided to pick out three different areas that we're going to talk about a little bit today in Rumor Roundup. First,

Mark Gurman is reporting that iOS 18 could be, quote, the biggest update in the company's history as they ready their release of AI features. Previous reporting has indicated that some of these features could include a revamped Siri powered by Apple's own LLM, as well as AI infusion into the system apps, stuff like messages and music in the iWork suite to try and make them better, as well as advancements

to Xcode to make development easier. So you're looking at kind of like those co-pilot kind of features to help with code completion, as well as app testing as well by using AI. Apple is also working on making Spotlight better as well, a Siri, with a quote here. Early designs of the Spotlight overhaul include using LLMs to answer more complex questions and the ability to tap deeper into apps to launch specific functions the current version of spotlight is mostly limited to launching apps making basic web searches and pulling up information so i want to get into

ios 18 ai in a bit more detail but the first thing i wanted to say is is spotlight a better brand than siri i mean maybe it depends on how badly we think because siri so here's the thing i know that especially all of us think about all the issues with siri but wow more people know siri they know the name right and they know the name yeah and i think the argument there is that i know people like oh but it's negative. It doesn't work. It's like, yeah, I think you can turn that around. I think that the negativity of the Siri brand is kind of overemphasized and overstated in our little community. And that the most important asset is that it's known in a way that Spotlight is just is not known. in a way that spotlight is just is not known now i mean i i could i could make the argument that throwing the siri name away and having it be all about spotlight would be better but

i don't know i don't know i feel like i mean spotlight brand could get elevated but siri is the brand people know so i agree with you and i'm not really advocating for just thinking about it because like zach has said uh i don't think anybody knows spotlight as a name that's kind of my point like yeah so then this the siri name is well known people are aware of it apple has done a good job of of publicizing it it's been around for an incredibly long time i think like a decade now right it started with like the iphone 4s or something but it hasn't got like a super positive association to it. Like people are just kind of aware of it.

I think by and large, people are ambivalent to it. Spotlight is also a cool brand name and it's another thing that Apple has. And like, I think it's kind of cool. The reason I bring this up is just because like Apple's, the majority of competitors apple has has actually changed their names with their system thing right so like bing is now just co-pilot which is just i think a great name for the for the for the ai stuff and google

hilariously introduced the name and then rebranded it, right? So Bard became Gemini. And I just wonder if with a big change like this, is it worth kind of cutting your losses a little bit because you're about to introduce something that in theory is so dramatically better than what it replaces that maybe it's best to just cut any negativity away and start over? I'll just say no. I don't think so. I think you're better off saying it's the all-new Siri,

and it's so awesome. And we revolutionized voice assistants 10 years ago when we introduced Siri, and now we're revolutionizing it again. And I know everybody else will be like, blah, blah, blah. It's like, okay, but it's Apple marketing. They say stuff like that. But that idea of, well, this is the new Siri and it's awesome. And then, so who are your competitors at that point?

Gemini, which nobody's heard of. ChatGPT, people have heard of. Bard is gone. Copilot is a good name, but again, it's kind of a new concept. If Apple is integrating with their operating systems on their phones, especially like Siri, it's already there. Like the new Siri with AI Siri AI, you could even call it if you wanted to, but like,

I think you keep the name because even if there's some negative connotations with it, and I think there are some, but I don't think it's a, I don't think they've destroyed the brand or anything. I think it's ready to be revived by new features and people get what it means, right?

Which is an assistant who helped me do things when i talked to it i do agree with you by the way it was just it was in reading the thing about spotlight oh i know it's just like it was like oh they do actually continue to have both of these names and maybe it doesn't make sense to i think my my argumentative response i was really arguing with some of our listeners, I think. So it's the straw man kind of thing. But bear with me here. I think those of us who are so focused on Apple stuff know how bad Siri has been and know how bad it's been for so long.

And it's a constant irritation to us. Whereas I think the general public uses it. And if they have a bad result, maybe they stop using it. Yeah. But that's about it. Right. Like, I don't think that there was that same, like, I hate it so much for years. I've hated Siri.

Like, I don't think that is a thing. I think it's, and in marketing, the most important thing is explaining what you are to be known. It's that lesson that I was taught many years ago by one of my old bosses who was a sales guy, he was like the first thing is to be known you must be known before anybody will consider buying your thing well siri is known it's a huge asset you don't get rid of it just because you know it hasn't been so great because in general the most important thing is that when you say siri people know what that feature is supposed to do and you say siri ai and they're like oh they made siri better with ai great and then you're done right like all the nerds will be like but but siri has been so bad

it's like it doesn't matter anymore it's over maybe at this point the public perception of ai is so much that if you know that siri was made better with ai you might be more willing to trust it or give it another go right yeah right So what do you think about Apple's prospects of AI and iOS 18 and this idea that it is being referred to internally as maybe their biggest update ever? Yeah. Well, I mean, I love... Here's what I love about it. I love that it's...

Apple has been riding so high for so long. And even in the early days where they were in the early days of the iPhone, they were being pressed by Android, right? Android was pushing a lot of buttons in terms of, oh, but we do this thing. They were intentionally implementing things Apple didn't implement in order to give Android a leg up in certain areas that Apple wouldn't or couldn't implement or just hadn't. Boy, it's been a long time, right? It's been a long time since that was the case. So now Apple is riding high.

They make a lot of money. The iPhone's doing great. And, you know, the smartphone velocity has slowed down. And this chatbot AI thing has really, I think, kicked Apple in its complacency. And so I'm excited to see what they do because it does feel like they are like, oh, crap, let's get this in more places and that they made a concerted effort. Now, do I think that will work out? I think the answer is some of it will work great. And it will be things like things we've been saying all along

like why can't the iphone do this and the answer has really been like apple has chosen not to do that and now some of that stuff is going to get eroded it's going to get it's going to be like ah but tim cook says ai so the people who are against it are are now outvoted and they're going to insert stuff in and that's why i think think Siri will be better because Siri has been so bad for so long, as we just discussed. I think in part because people involved with Siri are like, no, no, no, we've just got, it's complicated. It's that story about, it takes months to update like little decision chains and the Siri thing. And it's like, then Tim Cook says AI and they're like, all right, I guess we're throwing this away and we're doing something with AI. I assume that that will happen. And similarly, other OS features that could be simplified by using AI systems that, again,

might have been like, well, deprioritized or we're waiting for it to be better. And then all of a sudden, Tim Cook says, no, now do this. And they're like, OK, I guess we'll do this now. Do I think some of them are going to ship and we're going to be like, what? This doesn't make any sense. Yes, I guess we'll do this now. Do I think some of them are going to ship and we're going to be like, what? This doesn't make any sense. Yes, I do. And that'll be fun to notice when those things happen. But I'm excited by the possibility because this is one of those areas. Apple has been very, if I had to sum it up, I would say Apple has been very conservative with their implementation of machine learning stuff. They use it, but they're really conservative about it. And I think what we're going to see,

this is a little bit like that column I wrote about Apple getting weird. I think Apple has been caught so off guard by the advances in AI that it has been this kick to their complacency and that they are going to do some stuff that is a little outside their comfort zone with iOS. And I think it's been a long time since apple has done something outside its comfort zone because they have felt so comfortable with their position and they're like no no and their conservatism about releasing new features uh tends to override those like let's take a chance on this wild idea sometimes there are weird ideas but a lot of it is like really basic because they don't want to go overboard. You see it with their camera stuff where they're like, like the magic eraser thing that Google does. What bugs me about the magic eraser ads for Google is that I've been able to do magic eraser eraser on my iPad for ages now using using photo mater is what it's called now, right?

It's pixelmator photo. Now it's just photomator where you literally color in the thing you want to remove and it uses machine learning and it erases the thing and replaces it with something that should fit there. I've used that for years now, but Apple has refused to put something like that in photos. They just won't do it. They just won't do it. And this is the kind of thing where there's a kick of like no you you need to you need to do this and i can't wait to see it some of it's gonna be bad some of it's gonna be great that's the thing when you are are not caught off guard and have to rush to catch up so i'm i'm really looking forward to it. I think it's going to be a bizarre release potentially. And I'm here for it, right?

I'm here for Apple trying all sorts of weird stuff, especially I'm here for people in different areas within Apple's OS group and apps groups looking at the AI mandate and coming up with, and they know their software really well, and coming up with unexpectedly weird but good things and bad things. Sure, bad things, but also weird but good things. I think that could be great. And I like Apple trying weird stuff and being hungry, because the Vision Pro is super weird, right? And it's got issues, but there's also stuff in it where you're like, wow, that is really smart. That is really clever. And it's got issues, but there's also stuff in it where you're like, wow, that is really smart. That is really clever. And it's been a little while since I've felt that way about an iOS feature. It's like, oh, that's good. That's nice.

They added this thing that we've been clamoring for for five years, and they finally added it. But this is going to be, I think, more of an OS release where we look at it and we're like, what? And that's exciting, right? What did they do? It's going to do what now? For me, that's really great. I assume that you feel similarly about it. I have so many questions about it.

And I just don't, I'm not sure how they're going to do it, right? Like, how much is this stuff going to be on device? How much is going to be in the cloud? Like, what ramifications are there from that? Like, I'm intrigued about these things, but I'm intrigued about exactly what features they're going to have, what they're going to enable.

Like, will Siri have a personality now? Like, will it be one person? Like, all of these little things, like, how far are they going to go? Like, what are they willing to do? And then all of the drama that will naturally ensue from it. I'm really intrigued and excited about it. We did the draft of the ages, right?

Where I predicted that there'll be a scandal about some terrible thing that one of their AI things does. I mean, Google's going through it all right now, right? Yeah. through it all right now right like yeah it it's going to be really intriguing to see how apple and its corporate culture right battle ai like i'm i'm really intrigued by it the on-device off-device thing i think is really interesting because what um what i think it means is that they're gonna try to do things on device but they're gonna have some things that have to be in the cloud they're gonna make statements about how the cloud stuff is all anonymized and not logged and is personal to you which i think is good right like that they're

gonna want to say we're not you know it's our model and our data and and and we're we're not gonna do anything with your queries. Um, I do wonder like how those, there might be some hybrid models where it's, it's like, there's an LLM that runs on the iPhone that then does web queries. It knows to do the queries, but then the queries happen remotely and then information gets filtered back. I don't know. You're right. It, it, how do they have to change either their philosophy or how they describe their philosophy in order to use this and then yeah what are the pitfalls because again i think that that one of the reasons they've been so conservative with this stuff is that they want a level of control that is not necessarily possible with this stuff right now and so there are two choices there which is one

you make something that's actually not as good as the competitors because you've been so conservative with your decision making, or you let it rip and maybe some bad things happen. And how do you label it a beta? Do you have a footnote that says, you know, it's experimental and it might give you bad results? I don't know what those, what those things look. I'm very interested in the Xcode part of it too. what those things look i'm very interested in the xcode part of it too like how do you train if you're apple what is your code base of swift and swift ui especially that you've trained on is it just like stuff on github is there a lot of basically what i'm thinking is there is there a lot of swift code out there that you can train this on if you're not going to train it using apple's internal code and a lot of apps that use Swift are not open source and the source isn't available.

Can they train that to be a good co-pilot feature inside Xcode? I don't know. It's an interesting question. As well as AI features, Mark Gurman is reporting that iOS 18 will feature some design refresh. Gurman says the company is working to update the design of iOS, but I don't believe it will be a total overhaul that mirrors VisionOS. Makes sense. I feel like there's always room for refreshing,

but I think history has shown don't do the whole thing at once. It can tend to be a problem. It feels like there's some design language changes that they're going to make and we we we will talk about this in our next segment i believe because i think that we've gotten some clues about the direction they're going um but not a not an overhaul they're not trying to build it would be i would think it would be foolish to uh launch a brand new 1.0 product and then try to overhaul the lineup to be like it. Like, I don't think that that's the plan here.

I do think Vision OS things will seep. The ones that work will seep into the other products because that's how it works at Apple. But that seems premature right now. Yeah, I mean, like, there could have been things that were designed visually for Vision OS because they were going to be everywhere, right? Like rather than it being, oh, we made it for VisionOS and it looks real good. So now like it's what we do, you know what I mean? But as you say,

it would be strange if that was just the way that they went immediately. It was like, oh yeah, this is what we're going to do with our stuff. It's all going to look like this. I could see Stage Manager, especially on the iPad, looking more like Vision OS.

That's an area where I feel like I could just sort of like push those things closer together. That'd be nice. So moving on from iOS 18, DigiTimes is reporting that the upcoming OLED iPad Pros may not see the huge price jumps that were rumored after all. So last year, there were a lot of headlines generated when the ILAC had reported that pricing for the OLED iPad Pro models

could start at $1,500 for the 11-inch and $1,800 for the 12.9-inch due to these new OLED panels. And I remember we were talking about at the time, like, that seemed too much. But if it is going to be that, well, what are you giving me for it, right? However, Digitimes is now saying that they predict an increase of $160

as a maximum on each current model. This would see starting prices of $950 and $1,200 respectively. I mean, it's still a lot of money for an iPad, but it's not as much money as we feared. Nope. Right, because that was our statement about it was very much like,

how do you convince people that $1,500 for an 11-inch iPad makes sense, right? And if it's $950 to start, again, it's not cheap, right? You're in MacBook Air territory there, but it's not cheap right that's that's you're getting you're in macbook air territory there but it's an oled screen yeah interesting interesting here keep in mind also there's probably going to be a new magic keyboard and that's probably going to cost you know 350 something like yeah you could get to 1500 and 1800. But it's not what the iPad's going to start at itself.

These iPad Pros, also 9to5Mac reported this, they are set to get a little bit larger, but also thinner because of the OLED panels inside, with the key part being, I think, that the new iPad Pros are expected to be just five millimeters thick, which is wild,

and it's still expected that we will see them released by the end of march they're currently six and six and a half essentially and they're going to go down to five which is pretty wild um whereas the air will be six so uh air doesn't mean what you think it means but uh it is yeah i mean I mean, I love my iPad. I have to admit that I've been thinking, like, am I overly committed to the large iPad lifestyle? And I do love that big screen, but it is bigger. But then I see a story like this and I think,

hmm, maybe it's okay. Yep. Right? Because maybe, I don't know, I wonder what the weight change will be, if at all. I wonder. But that thinness

is pretty, pretty awesome. Going back to Mark Gurman reporting now in his Power On newsletter, Mark has said that Apple started work, early work, on a home pod of a screen.

Yeah, this is almost like a wet blanket kind of thing, because we've talked about this before, and he said that they they were working on it and this report seems to be very much like nobody get their hopes up this is not a 20 or 2024 thing right this is like it's out there this is a thing that they're they're they're trying out but it's not something that's shipping imminently because i think that maybe some reports made it made people too excited like they were oh they're testing it and they're getting ready to ship it and he's like no no no no that is not what's happening it's going to be a lot further out so don't get your hopes up yeah part of this reporting was that nine to five mac found references to such a device

existing in a tv os 17.4 beta it was referencing like a screen and and a home pod in tv os which like doesn't make any sense unless they're testing something like this because no such product exists and it is still expected that this device would be some combination of an apple tv a home pod and an ipad of a facetime camera oh sounds. I think really the key is like good audio, right? So HomePod. Yep. FaceTime camera so you can call people. The iPad part is just, it has a touchscreen,

but the operating system looking and feeling like tvOS, like that makes a lot of sense, that whole kind of stack of things to do. Simplified operating system. There are apps for it. You could do FaceTime and Zoom on it, right? Like they've got all that stuff in there. Because the tvOS stuff with continuity camera, it's like,

well, that's interesting, but you've got to have continuity camera. But if there is a product behind it that has an integrated camera and runs tvOS, it makes a lot more sense. And the software is already there for it at that point. So there's a lot to be said for this. Let me tell you what I want this device to do, but we're

very, very far away from that if it's ever happening. I want this to be an eye-tracking-focused device. Oh, interesting. If I'm in the kitchen, I'm usually busy. My hands are dirty, I'm cooking, whatever. To use a device like this, yes, I could use my voice, but I would also like to be able to look at it and tap with my fingers. I also felt like I want to do this with my watch too right like because the apple watch we always

wanted to be a one-handed device it's how we thought about it before oh it's a one-handed device right it's simple but it's not it's two hands it is more two-handed than anything else that you use but wouldn't it be nice if you could look at your watch and just use the single tap motion that it should potentially be able to detect to do things on the watch like we're far away from technology like that but i also i mean a few years ago wouldn't have imagined that they could have eye tracking so good on the vision. Now, keep in mind that the eye tracking is right by your eye and this thing is across the kitchen from you. But I think that there are things that they could learn. So my Google Nest Home, whatever it is, has very limited gestural support.

It basically means that I don't have to tell it to stop the alarm or tap on the screen i can actually wave my hand at it and it turns the alarm off and i i think maybe there's something like a combination of hand gestures and um and maybe even like attention sense so if you think about the idea that like if you're looking at it can it determine does it have an ml model of like oh now it's looking at me and then you do a command and it with a gesture and it does it that's not eye tracking per se what if like you could you know like uh you could i don't know tv os right is very big like the the point you know yeah what if you it had some kind of thing like some kind of like radar thing in it like that that pixel had well you could just move your hand right

and it's and it's just selecting what you're looking at like there are things to do yeah maybe or maybe it's maybe it's the motion right like because tv os is very much like uh left right up down select for most stuff so if you can imagine that maybe it only triggers when you're looking at it, and then you've got hand gestures for, which would be very easy, I would think for left, right, up, down and enter. You could, you know, so you could basically go like right, right, move your finger, right, right. And then go, you know, with your palm of your hand or something, go boop. And it selects a thing like you could there might be a simple set of those kind of gestures for when you're you want to be hands-free and not putting your oily

you know chickeny whatever they are hands on the screen which is super gross in the kitchen so i think there's potential there and they have this tech keep salmonella out of the kitchen you know let's just keep that out of the kitchen no no raw chicken well i mean salmonella might be in the kitchen keep it off your screen for sure yeah i mean, salmonella might be in the kitchen. Keep it off your screen for sure. Yeah. Watch those chicken hands. You're more likely to get it if you're just putting your gross chicken hands on the screen.

Exactly. You should keep it contained. Keep your contaminants contained. You don't want them on the screen of your device. It's right there, you know, contaminant, contain, right? It's the clues in the name. right? It's the clues in the name. Finally,

iPhone schematics and leaked production molds suggesting that the iPhone 16 will feature a vertical arrangement of the two camera lenses. Clearly this is for spatial video. Clearly. Right? Very clearly. Because they have been horizontally aligned from each other for years now, and now they

would be vertically aligned. Diagonally, sorry, not horizontally they would be vertically aligned. Diagonally, sorry, not horizontally. Diagonally aligned from each other, right? In the little square on the iPhone 16 for a long time. But if you have one right on top of the other, then you have the ability to flip the phone on its side and capture spatial video. Yep.

There are also rumors that suggest the iPhone 16 will gain both an action button and the rumored capacitive capture button, which is interesting to me that they would put the action button straight on that phone and then immediately as well, if they're going to add

this capture button this year, that there's a possibility of it coming to both phones at the same time. I think Apple is much more aggressive taking things off the Pro and putting them on the main models than we give them credit for.

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have a little i bought the little case for it so now when it's very rainy um i just keep it outside but i've got it in its little uh little case yeah i'm very excited because Ooni has sent me one of the electric ones. Oh, man. So that's on its way. So next time we talk about this, I will be able to tell you what it's like to use the Volt 12. I liked the idea of cooking inside and outside. That was very appealing to me. Listeners of this show can get 10% off their purchase of an Ooni Pizza Oven.

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to talk to Eddie Q about it. What a great time for everyone. I did. I talked to Eddie one-on-one. I mean, there was other Apple PR people about it. It was just me and Eddie talking. Just hanging out with Eddie Q. First time for me I've ever talked to Eddie Q. Was it a good time?

It seemed like a good time. I think Eddie Q is exactly who you expect him to be, who you see him as. He, he, he seems really smart, but also like a real person. He cares about sports.

Obviously that was in my story. I basically said, look, you know, one thing about it, it's like, he cares about sports. He's a courtside at the Warriors games.

When I talked to him, he had just come back from the Super Bowl. Like literally that morning he had come back from the Super Bowl was the day after the Super Bowl. And so to do this app and have like a sports score app, like clearly it's driven by his personal passion

for this subject and frustration one of the things that he and i talked about he was like well where do you get your scores and i said honestly i've given up on score apps i just use google and he says yes he basically is like yes this is the problem is that that the apps and i think he's right, the apps that you make for sports scores are generally, the focus is on something else. They're trying to get you to do something else, subscribe to their thing or use their betting app. There's so many other things that they,

or just load you in with ads. And he was like, we just wanted to make something that gets you to the scores fast. And that was our whole like charter for this thing. It was obviously coming out of his group

and probably a very small group of people. And they're like, it's a passion project for them. But I think that there's also behind it, there's a lot of strategy going on. So it's really interesting.

Even if you're not interested in sports or sports scores, I think it's interesting in how it's built and how it interlinks with other stuff Apple's doing and how Apple maybe can do some, do something something that starts simple but also has a lot of potential for interlinking with other things apple's doing so as uh eddie says and i quote i just want the

damn score of the game yep it's one of the greatest quotes from apple executive of all time and they said you know when you talk to eddie the top part of it before we get into the demo is on the record and i'm like when he said that i was like well that's not something they'd put in a press release and i love it because that's it right i just want the damn score that's what i want and and i mean he said he said he was literally standing courtside at the warriors games where he where he has tickets and uh and looking at the scoreboard and looking at the app when it was in beta and sending notes back about how long the app was delayed

from what the real time was. Because part of the goal of this was not only to get you the scores fast, but get them to be not super laggy. He wants the data source to be as current as possible. Yeah. What's going on with that data source because like that that was a thing right that you were mentioning in the article and i've heard other people mention

apple seems to have some some kind of very very fast data source like something's going on here do you know what what's going on there like do you know anything about it i don't know what their data sources are i think they've got different partners i think that one of the reasons why there are certain sports that are in there and certain sports that aren't, some of that has to do with like, what's like, there's everybody's like, oh, I can't add my favorite NFL team. It's like, guys, there's no NFL scores until August. So hold on. But I get it on one level, but on another level, I get why they're like, no, we're not going to do that now. not going to do that now um but i think some of the lower leagues um in in like it released in the u.s canada and the uk and in the uk one of the things that people pointed out is it's just the premier league um and and it probably should have some of the lower leagues in there too i think that has to do with the data source that's my suspicion is that they're not happy and they may even have some standards for like how quickly the data source updates and if the data source't very good, my guess is that they're pushing their data source providers because they want that data.

But they're launching with the data that they're comfortable with because they want to show off that they've got a good data source. The other funny thing about the data source is this is not a new data source. teams in Apple News or Apple TV before, you've been getting live activities and can continue to get them for those teams on your lock screen of your iPhone. That's the same data source. I got up a couple of days before I went down and talked to Eddie and Arsenal was playing. It was actually the day before because it was Sunday. They played the morning of Super Bowl Sunday. I'm walking out to get my tea in the morning and on my iPhone and standby, it, instead of it being like the clock and the weather, it's the Arsenal score and a play-by-play of the Arsenal game. And I thought to myself, oh yeah, right. Live activities. And in fact,

you know, now that spring training has started, I'm getting those live activities for the Giants as well. And what's funny is that those scores aren't in the scores app. And I think that, again, this is one of those cases where their live activities data feed has some spring training data in it. But the sports app isn't yet. I think that they've got stuff they want to do to properly present baseball. And they're waiting for the regular season to properly present it. Cause they've got a, it's not just the score. It's also like the pages that have like the box score and stats and stuff. And I think that they, uh, I don't think that's ready. They also have a

March madness thing that they're going to do for the NCAA basketball tournaments. Um, that he said that, you know, that that will be specific to that and they'll push that out for the tournaments. So there was clear intent here that this thing is going to get updated a lot. And that is not just presentation, but it's also the data sources. So I think that there's, there's more here, but, but when I say this, I mean, it also talks about the fact that this is kind of a, it's kind of funny, right? Because the data source is already there. It's in the TV app. And then I heard a lot of people say, well, why aren't they doing things like with the stocks app where you're basically like reading

news about your stocks that you're following in the stocks app. But like you read news about the teams you're following in the news app and that all syncs and like so on one level that makes sense on another level i wonder if the long-term play like this app is not called apple scores right it's called apple sports so i wonder if the long-term plan is to integrate more of that stuff into one app but right now it's sort of three apps it's a brand this is this is the brand it's not it's not it's not sports scores it's apple sport like apple tv like apple weather like all of these things exactly and we'll talk in a minute about like i want to talk to you in a minute about like boulder ambitions and stuff um i mean this is interesting like yeah i my main sport is formula one that's not in here

and i think i feel like i understand why i don't even think this is a data thing i think that is just a completely different way of showing scores of something because it isn't really scores there's not really scoring yeah i'm sure they will get there right because i'm sure they would like to harness uh f1 fans and get them in but it is yeah it's a different paradigm that they have to build and and i can see why they would leave it out at the first version it's a little less when they have soccer scores in there it's a little less to be like well why isn't the championship in there and why isn't the champions league in there and i assume that is a you know you're saying about the data but i reckon it's like how much money is in the is in the system right and like premier league has more money they can maybe have better better data real-time data because the data exists but if apple is very like very fixed

on this like it's got to be uh immediately fast or whatever then right that's going to cause them a problem doesn't it sound like them for them to have a higher standard and it means that things get omitted from their app and people complain about it but they're like no yeah we have a higher standard and then there's a question of like will they will they get people to raise the bar for the from their app and people complain about it, but they're like, no, we have a higher standard. And then there's a question of like, will they get people to raise the bar for the data sources? Will they lower their bar a little bit for some of the other scores? Who knows? But they're going out with the data sources that they think are, first off, are the biggest ones and probably the best ones. So it is the NBA. And MLS,ls of course it launched on mls opening day that's why

it launched when it did clearly was that they've got mls nba nhl uh premier league a bunch of other european soccer even though it didn't launch in other european countries um i i think it was strongly implied to me that luca maestri the cFO at Apple, really wanted Serie A to be in there. Fair. So, you know, there's a lot of people who follow European leagues who are not. The top-level leagues. But again, the lower-level leagues aren't there. Come on in, Phil.

It's a starting point. I know Phil Schiller is a big Formula One fan, so... I know, right? Why doesn't Phil get this treatment, you know? I think it's harder. I think that's the answer, right? It is harder. It's a completely different way to visualize data for for races uh than it is for there is an app out

there called box box that apple should just buy that team because they've done it like they've built a live activity for formula one races which is like it's so good like it updates live with times and numbers and stuff like it's a different way of showing things one of the things that i find super interesting and i find it quite complicated and very strange at the same time is that it has betting betting lines betting information right the odds on games are in this app in the app i don't know why they've done that well i can tell you i can tell you why which is in the u.s right now an enormous amount of attention and money is happening with legal sports gambling legal sports gambling is new in most of the u.s yep and there's a huge amount of

money in there and i think that what happened is there is a perception that betting is a part of the sports market and the sports audience. And so they didn't want to ignore it. I think five years ago, this wouldn't have happened. You can't bet in the app. No, it just shows you the odds. So why is that useful to you? I don't know. I mean, I'm not a bettor better so i can't tell you i think

maybe there's like who's favored yeah some people like to know that right but there's it is it's okay so it's weird to me because it's apple right yep then again the the i'll just point out again when they launched the major league baseball stuff their their pregame show was sponsored by a betting company. So like Apple has been involved with sports betting. And I know people feel differently about it. As far as I can tell from the reaction that I saw on Mastodon, I think in mainland Europe, there is a very strong anti-betting opinion.

But I will just say that in the u.s and the uk actually where these things have launched and i don't know about how canada feels um there it's it is a part of the culture and it's not a part that i am a part of but it is very normal i i'm really just surprised that it either doesn't ask or that it doesn't put the setting in the app itself you have to go to settings and then drill down all the way into the sports app and then turn it off but you can turn it off and i didn't even have to ask it was on my list of questions to ask about and before i could in the demo they're like you can turn it off it's there if you want it and you can turn it off it's weird to me that they've done it it's weird you say they partly with draft kings apparently it is the data source it says

that it's the data source yeah it's that it's the data source, yeah. But it's also strange to me that you can't do anything with it. Yeah, okay, it says it in settings. Sports settings, betting odds provided by DraftKings. So it says that in the settings app. It doesn't say it in the thing. And it can't do anything with that?

It's just that's where they have the data. So I guess for DraftKings, this is just a way to make money. So let's talk about some of the future of this like and i'll start with that question is can you imagine a world where apple's into sports betting not really um but i think i think that it's possible that there might be a partnership or out or links out i have a hard time imagining that they would they would do it more than that um i think that they'll keep it at arm's length um it's possible that they will allow like because then they would be linking to third-party apps i don't think it'll be in the app at all so i think this is probably the most it'll be in fact

i wouldn't be surprised if they scale it back a little bit based on reaction from people. Yeah, I don't know. We'll see. Like I said, I don't really understand the psychology of people who are focused on betting for sports, but I know that it's a huge part of the audience. And they want to capture that audience. I'm not sure that audience needs to see the odds in the app. Because they're probably seeing the odds in their betting app yeah anyway so i

don't i don't know if i entirely understand this part of it i don't i doubt it will be a direction for them who knows maybe like if you're that person like if you're using the sports app because you like it and then you notice the odds change maybe during the game that maybe you'll want it but i don't even know if that's the thing that happens i don't know it's weird it is weird i think it's the weirdest part of this and to me it's like an intro it's interesting because it's like this is a nice app like and and then a lot of the conversation has been focused around apple and sports betting which is just like you know it's something by the way one of the things that uh our our dear video producer chip um pointed out to us just now, which I alluded to, but I didn't mention in detail.

Sports betting is only legal in certain states in the U.S. Right. So if they were to want to interlink in the U.S., they would have to do like geography down to the state level and stuff. And I think that honestly, direct betting links in the app alone was a line too far but certainly it adds enormous complexity if you go beyond that but i think that i don't think that they want to do it no um but you mentioned linking out one of the things that this app does is if there is a service a streaming service um that that's connected to apple tv it's connected to apple tv that is showing the game that you're looking at live you can tap a button to take you to the app

to watch it to the tv app to tv app to watch it take you to the tv app from which you can go to the provider or start a live activity from the TV app for that event. So basically the link in the sports app is open in Apple TV app. And then in the TV app, you can watch it if you have an interlinked thing or you can follow the live activity if they offer a live activity for it. Which is weird, right? Because it's a bunch of extra taps and in a different app, but that's how they built it right now because those features already exist, right? They're already in the TV app.

So they're just sort of like, I don't know whether this is a philosophy that Apple wants to follow broadly, which is a whole bunch of small focused apps that interconnect, or if it's more just a function of this app being built late after that those features are elsewhere and so for now they're just interlinking but that the goal in the long term would be to integrate it all in the app itself um six and one half dozen of another right now i can see the advantage of both uh On Upgradie award-winning and my favorite podcast, The Town, Matt Bellini of Puck, his prediction that he made at the end of the episode

is that this is the beginning of Apple wanting to become the mega content provider. And this is their beginning of that. Everybody come to us and we'll program all of this for you in our applications and people like in apple sports right they would become the the like the the program guide for this and i listening to it i was like that's a great idea but i don't believe people are going to let them like i don't think that i think if that was the case then the tv app would be more successful than it is but maybe for sports it is more successful than it is for other types of content i would actually argue that this is a great leg up for the tv app because people are going to be more interested in sports who might not even know that the tv app knows what their favorite teams are and can immediately take them

to the app that's got that team teams game live and if you're thinking like people are, the future of sports is people watching on their iPhones, let's say, then having a scores app that will immediately or through a second app, which is why I think that ideally you can't, you've got to integrate it into this app directly. But like using that data to say, oh, well, you've got max. So you can see this game on, it's the NBA on TNT.

That's how I did it when I was testing this out on the first or second day I was out. It's like there can see this game on it's the nba on tnt that's that's how i did it when i was testing this out on the on the first or second day i was out it's like there was an nba game on and i have max which means for now at least i have the bleacher report add-on because it's it's they're giving it away for a limited time uh and it just put me into the nba game that i was looking at that was live um there that is potentially pretty powerful, right? Because, um, if you're those, those sources, whether it's a, uh, something like YouTube TV or Fubo or, or Hulu plus, or whether it's, uh, Paramount plus with the CBS stuff and, or the, the spooloo thing that might happen, which is the joint venture that might be coming

this fall. booloo thing that might happen which is the joint venture that might be coming this fall um if if apple can be the premier sort of like we know what sports you care about and we can get you to the video or the score or whatever as quickly as possible there's value in that and and it makes more sense for that to come out of the sports app than it does to come out of the sports area of the tv app because it's not even a tab right it's a scroll down on the iphone on the on the apple tv it is a tab but on the iphone it's a sort of scroll down until you get to the sports and then tap sports and then it takes you to the sports page which is not quite as exciting no do you think that this is also just a continuing signal that they would like to have more content

of their own like more than just mls like apple sports is like they want more leagues they want more i think they do but i think they also want to be an aggregator of other people's content right i think that they i think they do want to have some sports content of their own and they find value in that but you know when you think about how many iPhones are out there and also potentially doing this on Apple TV although there's some questions about the success of that but how many iPhones out are out there and maybe we throw in iPads but especially the iPhone having all of your sports like knowing your favorite teams and having Apple be the mediator to say,

oh, this favorite team is now on, especially with the sports world fractured like it is, where like, oh, where is my favorite team's game? It's on ESPN tonight, but then Friday night it's on Apple. And in the meantime, it's on local cable that I get through YouTube TV or whatever, right? Like it gets really fractured.

So if you're Apple and you can say, hey, we know where it is. Just tap on, you know, just come to the Scores app. We know your favorite team and we know that they're live right now. And you tap and we'll play that game no matter what app it's in because they're at the higher level,

kind of above the apps. I think there might be something there. I read a quote from John Gruber. The design language of Apple Sports is new. I wouldn't say sports looks much like journal, but they're similar insofar as they're both using a new, very simple, very focused UI design language. Sports is closest aesthetically, perhaps, to Apple Weather.

It does have a very different look to it. It does. To an app that Apple weather, it does have a very different look to it. It does. To an app that Apple makes, as did Journal. Like both of these applications, they feel like they are much more designed for the purpose of the application than trying to follow any specific set of rules. I agree. I do wonder if there are going to be things in this app that we look at in the next version of iOS and go, oh, yeah, this looks kind of like the sports app now. Or maybe what it says is that Apple is willing to let all of their apps look the way they do that best fits them and that they don't need to be as unified as they were before. them and that they don't need to be as unified as they were before.

Certainly their goal is to have it be a rich graphic treatment, right? Which is something that it's got in common with like the weather app. I think they want them to feel really nice and have lots of graphics and a lot of color. Like one of the things that they kept emphasizing to me was the fact that they're picking up the colors of the teams and using them as highlights. So like even out on the top level if you're watching the celtics they'll be green and if you're watching the warriors they're going to be blue or blue and yellow like that they're that they're going to pick up since color is one of the the big identifiers in a lot of teams they're're going to pick up those colors and use them.

Yeah, it's just interesting to see. Is this a design playground for them where they're like, don't worry about it, just make a beautiful sports app? Or are they thinking sort of like, this is where all of Apple's apps are going? I don't know. It's a nice moving gradients, like little flags and stuff in the application. When you open it up, it looks very materially materially there's movement there's life in it but it's also simplicity to it um yeah it's

it's interesting i'll be keen to see if and how this kind of thing proliferates but what i do like and i do like the idea of just making these applications look the best they can for the thing they are rather than like follow these very specific set of guidelines tab everything's gonna have tabs on the bottom they gotta look the same this doesn't have tabs on the bottom but it is a shame that this is another app that's iphone only same as journal it is it is iphone only i think that is interesting too right in terms of the prior apple's priorities that um um, although for this app, I think my argument would be, it's meant for you to check on sports scores while you're on the go. And the iPhone is the primary place where you do that. But your iPad is nice for if you're at home and it's game day

and there's like 12 games on and you want to keep track of them all. You know, you could have loads of them all at once. Right. So you could watch the play by play of multiple things on your iPad. Quad box, but on steroids, you know, but like data. Steroids aren't allowed in sports. Sorry. They're on the sidelines. Maybe, you know, who can stop you?

No. One last thing on sports. This comes from a press release about MLS, the season opener for MLS. Coming soon, all Apple Vision Pro users can experience the best of the 2023 MLS Cup playoffs with the first ever sports film captured in an Apple immersive video.

Viewers will feel every heart-pounding moment in 8K 3D with a 180-degree field of view and spatial audio that transports them into each match. Right. So this is something that, honestly, it is very clear that this is harder than they thought it would be because the new MLS season has started

and this isn't out yet. And this is the kind of thing you release to build the hype for the new mls season has started and this isn't out yet and this is the kind of thing you release to build the hype for the new mls season because it's the highlights from the playoffs of last season and it's not out yet instead it's like a oh yeah i didn't realize the 23 thing yeah this is ages ago yeah this is this is last year's, last fall's playoffs. October to December 2023. They have a documentary about it, which I'm really looking forward to seeing. But the best time to release this was shortly after the Vision Pro releases. You release this, and it gets people hyped about soccer and Vision Pro and the mls package that's on apple tv plus and instead it's a footnote in their press release saying oh coming later will you can while this this season

is going on you can relive the end of last season at least it seems like this is going to be a free thing like this isn't going to be like for mls subscribers because they say all apple vision pro users right at least yeah well i mean it's such a small user base now and they want to show show off as much immersive content as they can john gruber likened this to uh the nfl films stuff where you get like superior nfl films started in the 70s uh making you know recording on film uh football games they would bring their own cameras and then it so it was all of a much higher quality than the than the primitive sort of tv shoots of the day and

they had slow-mo that was beautiful like cranked up slow motion of on film and and so those were not ready later that day right but they whether whether it was Monday night football halftime highlights, or it was like, there was a show during the week that was all highlights that was based on the NFL films highlights. And then in the long run, it would be their documentaries about the history of football. And they had this huge film archive. It makes the history of the NFL seem so much more majestic because they aren't just using stuff from a TV broadcast. This feels a little like that, where if they can get this right, it's probably not going to be a live broadcast, right? To start. It's probably way too complicated to do that. But the idea of

immersive highlights is a great one, but the turnaround, like the turnaround, because the MLS Cup playoff stuff, it's the end of February now, and they still don't have it. So they're obviously struggling with how the production process of doing an immersive documentary about MLS. They haven't been able to do it. So, because the, I'm trying to look,

the December 9th was the final, right? So they've had all of their footage, presumably, since December 9th. It's been more than two months, and it's not here. My guess is that they wanted it here last week, and they couldn't do it. So we'll watch that, because I'm fascinated by how immersive content rolls out. And yeah, it's going to look great. Even though I don't really care about MLS i'm very excited about uh what you know seeing more than those two short clips in the demo reel of immersive sport because that is exciting

if you enjoy upgrade and would like more upgrade there's a very easy way to get that just go to getupgradeplus.com and subscribe to upgradegrade Plus. If you do, you get longer versions every week. We have bonus content for every single episode. In fact, you can go back through the entire back catalog if you subscribe and you can listen to every single segment we've done over the last four years nearly, where we have extra content at the end of the show. And we've done some good ones recently.

I think it was last week or the week before we ranked the environments of the show. And we've done some good ones recently. I think it was last week or the week before we ranked the environments in Vision Pro. That was a lot of fun. And reading the descriptions that Jason found online, that was a lot of fun. So you can go back and listen to those. On this week's episode, I want to understand how and where Jason is storing

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At getupgradeplus.com helps support the show too. Thank you so much if you sign up. I have some Ask Upgrade questions to finish out today's episode. We're going to start with two questions about VisionOS window management, which is, I think, going to be very complicated

to explain some of this stuff. Hot topic. Doug writes in to say, every three months when I do my business activity statements here in Australia, I don't know what that means, but maybe to Australians that's like an important thing, I open up the Numbers app

and rotate my studio display vertically. Can I rotate my Mac vertically in the VisionOS environment? Think so? I don't think you can. Maybe if you change the go into the settings and change the aspect ratio thing, but if you can

it's not easy to do that. But what I would say is you can make the numbers apple tall and skinny if you like. If that's the thing you want to do the most and you can have that alongside. Or make it tall and skinny, but also blow up the screen. But I don't know if you can actually rotate it. That's an interesting idea.

My guess is not, but I haven't tried that. Yeah, I don't think you can do that. But you could have the, like the VisionOS numbers app you could have up, right, next to your Mac. The beauty of, or Excel, if you use that, that's a Vision OS app, a native app. Because I think Numbers... Is Numbers a native app or is it an iPad app? I think it's an iPad app, but it's there. I think Kino is the only native one.

And pages and numbers are compatible. Or if you use Excel, then you could use that too. I'd say, yeah, Vision OS actually excels at having vertical windows. I love making really tall windows, uh, cause it's not a thing that you do so much on a horizontal screen. Um, so that's, that's kind of fun. Uh, but yeah, if, if you need to use the Mac, I would say make your window tall and, uh, and, and we don't have an answer for his actual question about this that would be a fun thing to do it would be nice if you had the ability to make a mac screen vertical because

the mac can do it so why wouldn't you be able to do it sims right sensor say can you angle windows in vision os say like a drafting table or an airport airport departure board you don't have the ability to change the well i don't even know how to describe it right you can go like how do you describe movement in a 3d space like you you can move them kind of a little bit like uh uh left right but not up down so what i would say is the the windows are around you right it actually you have you have like a bubble you're sitting in like a ball and the windows are painted on on the ball yeah so you're you're when you put one off to the left it doesn't put it off to the left at the same flat angle that the one in front of you.

It turns it so that if you put a bunch of them, they're kind of like all angled around you. So the idea of like tilting a window up so it's like at a perspective is not a thing that generally is done on this. However, I will say there's one interesting thing that Vision OS does, which is for stuff that's on your sides if you

if you've got the window moving if you're holding the window and you tilt your head it will actually rotate that window a little bit which i've been i do that with the mac a lot because it i want the mac to be like dead straight in front of me and sometimes it's like a little left or right so you just like grab the thing and move your body which is moving your head and and it's like a little left or right. So you just like grab the thing and move your body, which is moving your head, and it will shift it a little bit. Right. I do it where I've got something off to the side

and it's not at the same angle as like the door of my house or whatever. And so I'll tilt so that it's sort of like in the right angle for that. But it's not, because it's a bubble around you. So the drafting table example, i actually think it sort of does that where if i take a very close yeah and i bring it down to right where my keyboard is on my laptop yes it feels like it's tilted coming out of my laptop it's not it's not because it's because

it's trying to be at a straight in front of my vision so if it's down below it's going to be sort of like tilted back so that it's straight in front of your vision. So if it's down below, it's going to be sort of like tilted back so that it's straight in front of your vision. If you can imagine that. And then if you place it right in front of you, it's going to seem flat. And then if you place it above you, it's going to seem like it's sort of tilted down toward you.

Because in the end, you are in that bubble, in that ball, where all the windows are trying to be flat facing your eyes. If that makes sense. Yeah, it's like, what the system is trying to do is make it that like if you're in a stationary position wherever you turn your head the the window is basically flat to your to you so if you look up that you should be able to see it kind of

like face on so it will tilt towards you when you move the app up it's complicated but yeah if you imagine yourself sitting inside of a ball and the windows are rendered on the inside of the ball that's what does it we'll find out yeah uh if you maybe you'll find out if that makes sense to you or not and james asks you often say that apple news doesn't provide you with the content that you want but i'm curious what you use for day-to-day news reading. I use Apple News, but only because I haven't found a better alternative. It took quite a lot of training to get it right, but less effort than following the right people on social media or RSS. So, James, I don't believe two things. One, I don't believe it took less effort than what I do. And two, I don't have a lot of faith that I would get it right if I used Apple News.

Apple News to me seems like a product built for people who use news in a very different way than I do and are interested in things I'm not interested in. And when I use it, I try to tell it, don't use these stupid sources and don't do this. And the fact is, I look at that and think, how long am I going to have to use a terrible product that doesn't tell me what I want to see before it gets better? And I have no faith in it, doing that. The launch experience, the stuff it shows me, I hate it. I just hate that stuff. It's the stuff I don't want to see from news. It's like, oh, you're a news consumer. Here's this garbage that I want to throw at you. And I'm out of there. So I'm not willing to put in the work, I guess, nor do I have faith that putting in the work would make a difference. So what do

I do? I subscribe to some newsletters. I subscribe to some news sources. I have their apps. I have some of their feeds in an RSS reader. I'm currently using read kit, but I've used net newswire in the past. I've used a reader in the past. I've used, I know reader in the past. That's all via feed bin. My newsletters go into feed bin via their email gateway. So they show up in there too. So I pick, I pick some news sources that I want and I pick some newsletters that I want and I follow people on social media that give me links that I want. And that's how I do it.

So I have spent time cultivating those sources, but the idea that I would spend that time instead hoping to train the capricious algorithms of Apple News to give me what I want when they open up for the first time. It is so honestly kind of repulsive to me, the kind of garbage that they've got in there. I'm sorry. I only use Apple News for a couple of things. One is when I need to write about Apple News, so I force myself to use it so that I know how it works. And two, when I want to read a Wall Street Journal story. And that's about it. I also don't think that it's a ton of work to just follow the blogs that I'm interested in.

And that's what I do. Outside of that, I don't... The majority of news that I want in my life is just stuff about the things that i care about um if the the only world news source that i use i i like the economist i like their app they have uh this kind of morning roundup and they write like five long sentences about the five world news stories you need to know about and that's as much as i tend to want in when it comes to world news for for newsletters like i subscribe to a daily baseball newsletter that is a that has a lot of links to

stories in it plus a lot of fun commentary i subscribe to a daily uh newsletter about california news called the california sun and it's full of links to news sources in California about news that's relevant to people in California. And I read not only that newsletter, but the links that it sends. Um, so I've got some, I've got a few others like platformer and like, there are other things that I subscribe to like that. Um, the athletic has a baseball newsletter that I subscribe to cause I like baseball and I read that and I clicked to the links there. And then I've got a bunch of stuff in RSS and then I've got like the couple of newspapers and a couple other news sources that i subscribe to and that's it like and and and and some other there yeah there are other newsletters too but

like i've just pulled it together like that i i don't then i go you know then i go on on apple news and i just i see a bunch of news sources that i don't care about or that i know it's just all clickbait garbage rewriting other people's stories. And that's when I tell it what I'm interested in. Or just with opinions that I fundamentally disagree with. There's a lot of that in Apple News for me, too. Yeah, well, there's like, oh, yeah, here's some fun. Well, your choices are you get the general news that's sort of curated, but it's about stuff that I don't care about and, and curated

from a lot of places that I don't want to see content from. And if I pick like, oh, but you can follow topics, the topics you follow, it's all garbage. Like the topics I follow, at least they're, they're not curated anymore. And it's all just kind of clickbait garbage where it's like, oh, my entertainment stuff is coming from like slash film and screen rant and CBR. And like, it's all just SEO rewritten links to the Hollywood reporter and variety stories where they take one sentence and weave a whole, you know, story of garbage out of it. Garbage is not the word I want to use, but I'm going to just stick with garbage. So yeah, I just, I can't, I can't even with Apple news and is it possible that James is right.

And then the amount of time I've spent cultivating my news diet, I could have spent trying to train Apple news to give me better stuff. It is possible, but I just don't believe it. I think that it's so fundamentally at odds with what I am trying to get. I just, I honestly, I wish that Apple would start again. I feel like if Apple made Apple News a place that included like, you know, you could directly curate a little more of like what your sources were. And there's some of that with some news sources, but not others.

And put your newsletters in there and put RSS in there and make it much more personalized. But they don't seem that interested in it. They've got their curated top level and then they've got their non-curated stuff that's full of garbage. And that seems to be what it, what it just doesn't, I have no faith in the leaving aside the app itself, which I know, you know, they have made some strides and it's a better app than it was, but like the news sources, it's still just, it doesn't speak to me. And maybe, maybe I'm not the target audience for it, but I, I find the content, you know, literally repulsive. I open it up and I'm like, this is gross. Please just show me that Wall Street Journal story that I'm searching on via its headline so I can read it and get out of here. And that's just, it's not great. Not a great thing to be in. its headline so I can read it and get out of here. And that's just,

it's not great. Not a great thing to be in. As a little bit of followup from James Thompson who checked, you can't rotate the virtual Mac display as far as he could see in vision pro. You can, you have a bunch of resolutions, but you can't make it a 90 degree rotate. You can't do it.

It's all horizontal on the vertical. If you would like to send in feedback, follow-up questions for the show, go to upgradefeedback.com and fill in our wonderful form.

Thank you to everybody that does. The articles we were referencing earlier that Jason wrote about the sports app are over at sixcolors.com

where you can read Jason's work all the time. You can also hear him on shows here on RelayFM. You may actually enjoy it downstream. If you liked our conversation about sports and streaming earlier on, you can go and hear him there.

And TheIncomparable.com as well. You can hear me on RelayFM and check out my work at CortexBrand.com. We are on social media. You can find Jason. He's at JasonL, J-S-N-E-L-L. I am at iMike, I-M-Y-K-E. We mentioned it earlier, but go and find the video clips of the show on your favorite

platform, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube. We are at Upgrade Relay. Thank you to our members and supporters of Upgrade Plus. Go to GetUpgradePlus.com to find out more. Thank you to our sponsors this week, Uni and Squarespace. And we'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snell.

Goodbye, everybody.