Upgrade - 506: Legacy When? Legacy Now?

Episode Date: April 1, 2024

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 506 today's show is brought to you by sanebox uni pizza ovens and express vpn it is april 1st 2024 we're no fools my name is mike hurley i'm joined by jason snell hi jason it's great to be here mike it's great to be here on the worst day of the year the worst day i i this morning i just turned to lauren in bed while we were uh like having our tea and i said oh by the way it's april 1st don't believe anything today she's like okay great and then there's an ug like uh boy yeah great it can be done well just Everything we say here is real. I like it when people just have fun.

Yeah, fun. They're not like trying to trick you. That's, you know, I'm not into that. No, it's a great day for funny bits, right? Funny bits are fine. Most of them aren't. Be funny. That's the problem.

It's really hard. It is also a day for people who aren't funny to try to be funny, and those don't work out so well. But fake stuff is my least favorite. I have a Snow Talk question for you. It comes from Levan who asks, have you tried reading comics on your Vision Pro? I see that the Marvel Unlimited app

works in compatibility mode. Honestly, I don't view Vision Pro as a reading device. I will read things in it, but that's just not how I use it. I haven't view Vision Pro as a reading device. I will read things in it, but that's just not how I use it. I haven't tried comics. I guess I will, but I just have no enthusiasm for it. I'm enthusiastic about immersive video

and about 3D movies and even about just watching a baseball game like I did last week. There are lots of things about it that I'm interested in. Reading, I feel like I've last week. Like there are lots of things about it that I'm interested in. Reading, I feel like I've got better devices. Like if I want to read a book, I've got a better device.

It's my Kobo. If I want to read a comic book, I've got a better device. It's my iPad Pro. And I think I just prefer that. Now I have scrolled articles, but even like longer articles, I don't really want to read them on the vision pro i'd really rather rather read them somewhere else

yeah so um i have been reading this so this is one of those cases where i just kind of take the question and totally turn it sideways that's fine i have an answer so we can come back around okay but here here it is i have been reading um the amazing spider-man comic that you recommended to me that was an upgrade plus so an upgrade plus I made a good recommendation for Jason, I think. I hope. Nick Spencer's Amazing Spider-Man run. Yeah. And I've been reading that and enjoying it.

I have come to realize, and I think Marvel has done this too. When I was reading comics the first time, and then certainly the second time I really got into reading comics when the iPad came out, the struggle is something that I think they call it And then certainly the second time I really got into reading comics when the iPad came out. The struggle is something that I think they call it the eternal present in comics. But it's this idea that every comic that's ever existed. There's actually a great book called All of the Marvels about this. Where a guy decided to read every Marvel comic in the Marvel Universe in order from start to finish.

And tell the story. Because it's meant to all have happened and the problem with that is that first off it's way too much it's like how the tv show mash if you do a timeline of everything that happens in the tv show mash it's literally impossible for it to have happened during the korean war korean war was too short for mash um it's a little like that we like Peter Parker even if he's like in his 30s and married to Mary Jane Watson Peter Parker is

has lived too much and there have been too many lives and too many things have come and gone and it's this eternal present also where Peter Parker today is in the 2020s and he remembers events that happened to him a couple years ago but when those events actually happened it was the 1970s and you're like well how does it all mean it

doesn't make any sense this is a long way of saying that one of the things that i appreciated in reading these first few nick spencer spider-man uh comics is i feel like Marvel philosophically has gotten over the, and maybe DC has too, I don't know, but gotten over the whole idea that it makes sense. I feel like, I didn't even mention, the other problem is if you try to do essentially a reboot and say, oh, well, but he's actually back in school now, or, oh, he and Mary Jane weren't actually married,

and you try to make him younger again, so he gets into his 30s, and then suddenly he's in his early 20s again. But everything happened, which doesn't make any sense, right? So the next Spencer Spider-Man, it sets him in a certain age. Recent events are remembered. Distant past events are vaguely remembered. But I feel like it gets over the hump of like it's good enough right like you get it you get you get who this is we're just telling some spider-man stories here and and that's all that

matters which is great because you know the burden of trying to make everything connect and make sense which is impossible anyway makes for worse storytelling so i felt a freedom of like just saying look this is what this book is about is he's you know he's back with mary jane and he's uh unemployed for a different reason um and like and just like get over it and it's like i liked i liked that about it i really appreciated that i could just dive in and and accept the premise of what this spider-man story was trying to do and then just go with it so yeah and he you know as the series goes on more things come up from the past but i think he does a very good job of just picking what's

necessary yeah you just have to accept it i mean i just i find that the but what about this and didn't he already meet this person in this and all that it's like i just i'm over it now i just i just want to tell some good stories like that's all that that's all that matters i think they're getting ready to reboot everything again, right? They're doing a, a ultimate new ultimate stuff. That's fine.

Whatever. There's going to be a new album, Spider-Man. It's like, I think it's already started, but it's, it's on Marvel unlimited in a couple of weeks. Uh,

so yeah, I have tried the Marvel unlimited app on vision pro. It doesn't work for me. The issue is you end up with like this huge comic page in front of you and it's too much head movement to get through the comic what i didn't try and what might be nice is if you are somebody who likes the you know the marvel unlimited app same as the comixtology app before it does the thing where it zooms into each area that you know i know that some people like that and maybe reading it like that would be pretty nice but i mean you probably be tapping quite a lot but no i i like the full page just read the full page um and you know it is kind of cool that the vision pro has the you

can switch from landscape to portrait like that's actually really nice for when you're reading a comic because you don't actually have to physically move the iPad around. You can just like look at the button. It is a good experience. It is just not what I would particularly want. But what I'm happy about what Marvel did here is they were just like,

screw it, we're just going to make it available. Because I think that that is what a lot more apps should be. I think they should be like, oh it. We're just going to make it available. Because I think that that is what a lot more apps should be. I think they should be like, we'll just put it out. You know, like we're just going to put it up. Or just do it. You can use it if you want to.

And if you like it, great. I really wish more people would have done that. If you would like to send in a Snell Talk question of your own to help us open a future episode of the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com and send in your own S help us open a future episode of the show. Just go to upgradefeedback.com and send in your own Snell Talk question. I have a follow-up for you, Jason.

You remember a while ago we spoke about there was a rumor that the Apple stores were going to bring this new technology in where they would be able to update the phones in the boxes? Right. Images of this machine have appeared online. So I have a link here from MacRumors. So this device is built to allow for this perfect placement.

So you take the iPhone boxes and you put them in and the machine lights up. Once the machine detects that there's an iPhone, it is able to remotely boot up the iPhone while the iPhone is still sealed in the box, update the software, and turn it off. It takes about 15 to 30 minutes for a phone update to complete. The device in the image looks like it can take six phones at a time, and there are multiple devices stacked on top of each other. So my thinking on this is this is quite an interesting idea, but for the main time that this is most important, which is around iPhone launch time, this feels wholly

impossible as a thing to achieve from when the phones arrive to when people will be taking them out of the store. It feels to me like this is an interesting idea, but that needs to be much, much faster than that time period or be able to take way more of these things.

You know what I mean? Like half an hour per iPhone feels like a lot. Yeah, it's true. I wonder what the volume is and how many of these machines they're making and all of that. And I think that this is, it's going to be limited to like certain models that have an older version of software.

Maybe it's less for the launch iPhones and it's more for like the ongoing stock so that when you hand out an iphone to somebody in march it's not all the way back on you know the one when it was manufactured in in uh december or whatever i don't know you know depending on the stock in the store i don't i don't know i love this idea obviously it's store. I don't know. I love this idea. Obviously, it's not ideal. You want it to be faster, but it's a software update. It's very clever that they're doing it all wirelessly. We talked about how this would be because people were like, oh, you can't do that.

It's like, well, Apple makes the device. They absolutely can do that, right? They have a mode where it's either looking for a specific Wi-fi or it's looking for a very specific nfc attachment and then it gets on a uh you know a network or it's looking for a usb attachment or like they built this thing to do this they built the iphone and this device to work together to make this happen which is cool but you're right how many iphones move out the door in a day and how many are you going to be able to do this? And also that means somebody in the retail store is minding the oven

the whole time. I can imagine a scenario where you might be able to request it or they might be able to ask, right? When you're picking up your device, like, would you like us to make sure this is up to date for you? That kind of thing. There's definitely uses for it, but this kind of technology

would be way better if it was like built into the trucks you know that brought the iphones you know it's like on the planes yeah it could be done on the ship or in the factory or what i guess the factory is too soon in the process right that's the problem before they're in the box that yeah this is that that it is whatever that they put on it at the factory is no longer current. And so, yeah, it may be for, I would imagine that the biggest issue is early on in the shipping, right? Where they make a lot of them and they're, and they're old versions and that they need to get them up to the current version, but it's not, it's not scale. I love how clever it is, but you're right saying that what's the scale of this and this,

the, the photo, uh, mac rumor has posted um shows two of them stacked on top of each other and it's like well you are already at the point now where you know you're like oh we'll make it with six six will be good right and then people are like nope get me more and i'll just put them in a stack um it does look a little like a pizza oven or i was thinking it's like it's like from dune like what's what's in the box iphones yes updates are the mind killer okay all right i'll put my iphone in the box it's fine but it's a cool idea i mean this is kind of one of the things we're like where could they take it you know um and and it is a cool idea like maybe there's something in the future

where maybe it doesn't need to do the full update and it takes like five minutes, but then the first time that it turned on, it completes the update. Like you're just like loading the package on. Like this has come from, there have been multiple iPhones that have launched now where the software that you need for that phone

is not on that phone. It's not on the phone. And that is a problem. And you're trying to do a backup from your most recent iPhone, which is already on the new version and they've they've improved that right where they're like ah this is another version it's it's newer um would you like me to update my phone you know update me to that version and then restore and you're like yes and it does it it's better but the goal is that you walk out of the store without having to do a software update yep that's the goal wwdc has been announced wwdc 24 june 10th to 14th 2024 it happened in the last couple of days

it's the second week of june surprise some people i did go look and see when schools get out here in california and it is that week and it never fails that they do it the week that everybody's got like and school things and graduations and stuff. So good job, Apple. You did it again. People at Apple don't have kids in school. I'm glad I don't anymore. But I laughed. I actually went and looked up my local high school's school calendar. And sure enough, that's their last week because of course it is it's just very funny i don't know why they do it that way um also uh interesting styling on the logo right it's it's more like triple v dc which is interesting yeah i think they did this on some merch last year i

think like the tote bag had the w styled this way um or maybe it didn't. But it's a fun look. It's a fun look. You know, Apple is really... It's fine. Whatever. This is like the admission that WWDC is too long. It's too long. It is. Shorten it up there.

You can say Worldwide Developers Conference with as many syllables, which is always fun. So yeah, it's happening June 10th, 14th. I also like that Apple have now created a developer page on YouTube where they're going to be uploading the sessions this year. And they've got the old sessions up there. Yeah, for 2023.

So this makes things even more accessible than they were before. And just to be clear, chances of Mike coming to California for WWDC are low yeah low i mean it's definitely it's not definitely no right now i'll know within a couple of weeks if it's like if it's definitely no or maybe that's where i am right now you got stuff going on yeah i got a lot of things going on and i'm not i'm just not sure if i can squeeze it into the schedule this year you already went to the US for Vision Pro.

Yeah, I already went. Yeah, I'll be going back for Podcastathon. Yeah. And it's not like I'm not going to be seeing my friends around that time. It's true. It's true. Everyone's coming to me for a change. In July, that's right.

Finally. I mean, I've come to London and seen you, what, three or four times now? Yeah. Four times. Yeah, more than most. At least, yeah. DMA Today. Today. london and more than most three three or four times now yeah four times yeah more than most at least yeah dma today today maybe for the last time last time yeah as thank you to the literally hundreds of upgradians who wrote in to help us pick a name for our new segment which will be the combination of all potential regulation uh whether it be dma doj and what will inevitably

come this could have encapsulated dutch dating apps when we were doing that for a while um yeah any any legal or regulatory proceedings involving apple will here and after have their own segment. Yep. Which is going to be called Lawyer Up. Yep. That's going to be the new name. This was by far and away the most frequently suggested and also the best one. So thank you to everybody who suggested Lawyer Up. That will be the new name.

We're having some new artwork made, which I'm very excited about, which is why this segment is still called DMA Today because we don't some new artwork made which i'm very excited about which is why this segment is still called dma today because we don't have the artwork yet uh but we will soon uh the i think the second best that i saw was regulation roundup which is also very funny but uh i don't want to i don't want to i don't want to pollute the namespace you know it's not all regulation it's like it's better we can't round everything up. If anything, we cannot round this up.

The rumors, we can round them up. The regulation, we cannot round it up. We just got to lawyer up. That's what we got to do. I had a cool question I wanted to talk about from Francois who wrote in to say, I'm curious to know if Apple gets fined a monstrous amount, which could be at least

10% of their global revenue, where does the money go? Could it make its way to social programs in the EU and their countries? So this is a question where I looked at it and was like, I don't have the answer for this, right? Like, we get a lot of these kinds of questions. I understand, like, people ask questions that it's just no way that me or you could know the answer. I think sometimes what people are looking for is our opinion on such a thing but for me my opinion is like yeah i mean it probably should so i started googling around and i couldn't find it so i used a tool this new ai tool that i like called perplexity i heard about this on the

hard fork podcast and i've been trying it out and essentially what perplexity does is it uses various models and but they tune the models to try and make it the best at answering questions specifically effectively better than a google search is what they're going for like that's kind of their idea and they gave me the following and I'll put a link in the show notes so people can see what it looks like. They say the search results that they've done do not explicitly state what the European Commission would do with the money it receives from fines related to the DMA. However, typically, when the European Commission imposes fines, the money collected from these fines goes into the general budget of the European Union. This budget is used to fund various EU

programs and activities across member states, which can range from agricultural subsidies to regional development projects, research and innovation programs, and more. So the idea is, in theory, any money that they would collect from DMA fines would and could go to the european people in some yeah whatever programs are being done by the eu yeah so interesting questions interesting thought exercise uh you know maybe this makes these kinds of things more uh appealing to you citizens i don't know but there's a lot of conversation at the moment about the fines and how they equate to revenue. I don't really want to wade into that right now, but there you go. Thank you for the question, Francois. And hopefully next time we talk about this, it will be lawyer up.

Nice. This episode is brought to you by SaneBox. Having no emails in your inbox is a thing of the past. In fact, I would call it a dream. A dream. Just so you know. Could you imagine? We're so inundated with email.

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from your inbox with a two-week free trial. Visit SaneBox.com slash UpgradeFM to start your free trial and get a $25 credit. That is S-A-N-E-B-O-X.com slash UpgradeFM. Our thanks to SaneBox for their support of this show and RelayFM. Rumor roundup! Yeehaw!

Mark Gurman is reporting that the new iPads that we did our draft on last week will be launching in May. Production is now being ramped up for these devices. Apparently they were supposed to launch in March or April, but there has been a delay on both finishing the version of iPadOS that will run on them, as well as some production delays from the OLED panels. You know, some people might say, wow, you did that draft prematurely. And I'm going to say no. I actually kind of like this idea that we did a little message in a bottle from a time when there are fewer details that are clear, which is one of the reasons I wanted to do it is it felt like nobody is entirely sure about all the details, not even Mark German and that that would allow us to go in and,

and, and really be uninformed when making our draft choices or only lightly informed. And I liked that. I felt like that was a good competitive surprising sort of thing. And I honestly don't mind since we're pretty confident that there's going to be a big ipad release right to take a draft and then have it be a message in a bottle toss it in the draft ocean i don't know and uh and we'll it's like a time capsule we'll open it up in may this is something that would be hard to do like other times but it really did feel that

it was specifically ipads coming right and so this was an easier one to do right and and i and i do like that we're that basically this this uh product launch will come and go and would maybe otherwise not have a draft and that would be a shame so considering that there is interesting stuff with them right we did this last year with one prospective draft where we recorded on a monday we thought they would announce an event or do a product release on a like a tuesday and i forget what it was was it max anyway we did it the october event and it worked right then we we we did that and i like that because otherwise we're missing drafts so if we have some sort of confidence

that there's going to be a product announcement and uncertainty about what it is, then doing a draft in the hopes that it will one day be cashed in, I think, is perfectly fine. So not that it's all about us. I'm also looking forward to having there be new iPads. And I'm sorry that they're not coming sooner, but I look forward to them when they get here. Yeah, it's coming at some point, Sue. So this next topic, it's not a rumor, but I think it's a conversation, a news story that is interesting to people who are interested in rumors. It's about what powers rumors. It's the behind the scenes, the thing that makes rumors happen, which is leaks.

Yes. the thing that makes rumors happen, which is leaks. Yes. Last week, friend of the show, Joe Rossignol at MacRumors, posted a report about Apple suing a former employee, Austin Aude. I've looked this up like three times,

and I think that's how I'm going to say it. Aude for leaking confidential information to the media. This is a quote from Joe. Aude joined Apple as an iOS software engineer in 2016, shortly after graduating college. He worked on optimizing battery performance, making him, quote,

privy to information regarding dozens of Apple's most sensitive projects. So I'll just stop there. I have heard and spoken to people in similar kind of career uh points as out it was where they are not necessarily clued in on just you know they're not like on that team like they're not on like a like the vision pro team but they are at a point in the funnel where they find out about so much stuff because of the thing that they work on so well and and how apple is structured right where where you end up with these functional groups where instead of it just being the people on the ipad team who know about the ipad it's like well the people who work on the chips for the ipad and

the graphics for the ipad yeah like you could just go. Well, they all know about what's happening with the iPad because they had to work on it, at least to a certain degree. It's like one of the teams that I imagine is like very powerful at a very late stage is the web team at Apple, right? Like people building the website. So maybe they don't get like, maybe they get like, oh, you got to be ready for two weeks here and they don't know what it is until that point.

But they have all the imagery, all the names, all the prices, like the stuff at a very high point. Anyway, so there's a lot of these computers that are not on the internet that are in a locked room that they have to go. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. At this point.

I mean, after they accidentally put things on their CDN, I think at this point they probably do. The saying about computers. Yes. And this is, I think,. The saying about computers. Yes. I think one of the weird parts of this. So the lawsuit alleges that Aude used his work-issued iPhone

to leak sensitive information to journalists over a five year period. This included details about the Vision Pro, the journal app, as well as policies for product development and regulatory compliance. It appears that most of the leaks were given to two reporters, Aaron Tilly, who works at the Wall Street Journal and was previously at the Information, and another unnamed second reporter who also worked at the Information. A lot of detail and screenshots

are actually available in the lawsuit, which Joe went through and wrote about, that relate to Adele leaking information about the Journal app app specifically this is like one of the key parts of the complaint and a quote from joe apple believes that ade's actions were extensive and purposeful with ade allegedly admitting that he leaked information so he could kill products and features with which he took issue this is why I wanted to talk about this on this show. Yeah. Because there have been multiple times in the past where Jason and I have been asked questions

or spoken about like, where does this information come from? Why do we know about this? Yep. And we find out about a lot of things and I think that there is a consideration that needs to be taken into the provenance of a leak or a rumor and that i think and i think we would we agree on this completely

a lot of the time people when you hear something that sounds strange or weird or like really negative it is someone who is upset about the fact that their pet project was killed or a thing that they care about was killed or a thing that they don't like is released. They lost an argument. They lost an argument. And so they want to put it out there. And you can see there are these screenshots that are in the article where Alde's referencing. He says, I can't wait for chaos to break out before Apple corporate people even wake up. I can't wait for chaos to break out before Apple corporate people even wake up.

So like it's, he clearly had an ax to grind. Yes. And maybe that was why he did this. Unfortunately, it was a company owned ax that he was grinding. So let me just get this last piece out. We can talk about that. Apple found out about the leaks in late 2023 and arde was fired during a meeting about these events during the misconduct process they denied leaking information and excused himself to use the bathroom he then deleted what uh quote significant amounts of

he then deleted quote significant amounts of evidence from his phone which apple knows about and has some access to screenshots and information because he was using his work phone, which is a managed device. So Apple issued these corporate-owned phones, but it means that they can – so many businesses do this. If you were to quit, they'll cut your phone off, right? And it was just dead. Or they have access to this kind of stuff. And it is really wild that somebody would go to the lengths that Ellie went to using the phone that Apple gave him.

It's a very, very strange thing to do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, okay. This is sort of amateur hour here. Yeah. And that's why he got caught. Because lots of people leak stuff to Mark Gurman and they haven't gotten caught so far as we can tell.

So this is a leaker who is bad at leaking. But I want to go back to the point about why he did it. Kill products and features with which he took issue. And for me, that is something we should just underline here, which is we don't always do it with every item because I do think that there are various psychologies involved in leaking. But one of them is trying to affect change. And this can be positive or negative. You can view it however you want. But when somebody inside Apple leaks something, sometimes it's because they think it's a mistake.

They actually think the company is making a mistake in a strange way. They think they're helping Apple by doing this. That they think Apple maybe has lost its way or like that they have, they can see something that that their bosses can't see and it's going to hurt the company. Apple, I mean, they think they're helping Apple because they think Apple has made a mistake. What Apple would say is, no, we're doing this. We decided.

You're hurting us because you're trying to expose what we're doing to the outside. But I think it's fair to say, and we see this, this is actually not super different, except it's in advance, to what we do, right? Where if we think something Apple is going to do or is reported to be doing is bad, we'll say it too. And I've always said, you know, the goal there is really to get attention on it so that maybe it gives somebody on the inside a stronger argument to say, maybe, you know, look, see, I told you, here's the proof that people agree with me. I'm not just

shouting into the wilderness here. You know, we went, took this out to the general public and people are upset about it. But like, there's a manipulation thing going on here. And I think that that's interesting, right? It's always, this was the example I always like to give is that expensive NBC thing where somebody was like, oh, it's all just going to be network quality content on TV plus. And it was my pet theory is still that that was a particular producer on a particular

show that was actually originally intended to be at a more adult audience and was refigured as a younger audience show. And they were mad and felt like they blamed Apple for it because they thought that and they extrapol mad and felt like they blamed Apple for it because they thought that, and they extrapolated that to be all of Apple shows,

which turns out wasn't true. It was that particular show. So always asking yourself the question as a consumer of content and of rumors and of all these things is, who benefits from this? We should always ask those questions. Who benefits and why are they doing it?

Because a lot of times when we cover stuff that's being rumored, this is this starts it starts to smell like this. I'll put it that way where you're like, why? You know, this is a curious, as you said, kind of curious rumors of like, why? Why now? Why this? And the answer is sometimes because somebody is unhappy with how it went inside Apple. And now they're going to leak that in order to grind that axe. Obviously, I don't know this person. I can't get into their head. I really don't understand the scenario where they were so mad about the journal app. Like, I don't know what it could have been that made them so mad, you know? That they felt like this thing had to be killed. I think this is a person who has some very strong opinions

and is also, I think, young and naive and takes things personally that he shouldn't and has ended up in a world of trouble now for this. But yeah, it's... And it's kind of inherent in the fact that we know about this because we only know about this because alde is denying a lot of stuff so app and and because of the the destruction of evidence apple is unhappy with the amount of information he's provided them about what exactly he leaked and to who.

So they are now pursuing legal action to try and get more of the full scope. That's why we know about this, because this stuff happens often. Like I've heard about it before. People that have been leaks and have been terminated. And maybe it's in a similar way to this, where it's done on a device that Apple has some level of access to and maybe they have you know we've heard about the security team right maybe they had like a a reason to expect that someone was doing something and checked in on them and it turns out they were or they gave them some information that you know we've heard about that before right we're like yeah they give incorrect information to someone if it gets out they know who they give it to but this one has gone to court because of all these things that

we've mentioned it's making it worse and that's why well he's they're making an example of him yeah i mean in the end this this comes out publicly it's because apple wants people inside apple to know that Apple does care about this and that you can get in big trouble and have your career ruined and, and be liable for lots of money. Yep. Um, if you, if you are a leaker. Yeah. So I have one other thing. I had a, uh, comment. It's actually, uh a former employee of phil schiller actually michael gartenberg on twitter um who asked the question is it ethical for journalists to repost links knowing it's confidential information and the consumer really has no right to know this isn't

watergate or the pentagon papers and here's here's i i responded to him um here's a version of that a podcast version of that so so it fits in more than a tweet. So talking about like leaks that you get from a source or whatever, is it? Yeah, yeah. And it's like, as a journalist, if you know that they're passing you confidential information, right? Like what's the ethics there? confidential information, right? Like what's the ethics there? And from a journalism standpoint, here is where generally the ethical line is drawn, which is you are not supposed to,

and it's in fact illegal for you to induce people to give you information that would require them to break the law or their contracts or something like that. So inducement, the idea that you approach somebody at Apple who you know or who you don't, and say, hey, you got any info? Give me the info. I want the info. That is generally considered unethical. If they approach you and say, I have information for you, journalist, about what's going on inside Apple, it is considered not unethical because it's not your job to keep Apple's secrets, right? It's just not. It's their job, and they may be may be you know they're taking their own risk but they're bringing you information and in that way it is watergate or the pentagon papers in the broadest sense of somebody comes with comes to you with information and your job is information

about apple and you're confident that it's correct you've checked it. All of those things. I don't really have a problem with it. However, I also, the implicit in this is the idea that this isn't Watergate or the Pentagon Papers that he's saying.

It is important. It's not important stuff to the general public. It's not important to know what Apple's doing. People are doing it for entertainment. I think that there's truth in that

and I have always thought that. So, the way I put it on Twitter, which I don't spend a lot of time on, but he asked me directly and I was like, okay, I'll respond to this. I think the consumer's need to know about the future of tech companies is overstated. Back in the day, when I started in this business, there was a weekly newspaper called Mac Week. And they were often referred to as Mac Leak because a lot of what they did was, here's what Apple's doing next. Here's what other companies are doing next in advance of them

announcing anything. And I always thought that was curious because at Mac User, we never did that. All we ever did was follow embargoes, announce things when they were announced, that was it. And in fact, one of the clever things our parent company did was keep these technology publications separate so that when Apple got mad at MacWeek, they didn't get mad at Mac user theoretically because we followed the rules and they would talk to us even though they wouldn't talk to MacWeek in large part because they were reporting on things before they were ready. MacWeek's argument was always, well, our audience, it's a controlled circulation publication,

which means that it's qualified. People who read MacWeek, this is in the print days, had to fill out a card about how many Macs, basically, they were in charge of and what buying authority they had. The idea is these were volume buyers of Mac

computers and accessories. They were making buying decisions. And the whole premise was the people making buying decisions had budgets and they were trying to plan their budgets and when to buy and when not to buy. And advanced information about when apple was coming out with new products directly impacted their buying decisions that was the argument and there's truth in it i'm sure some tiny percentage of mac week's readership were those people yeah i mean i can't imagine a publication being able to survive and be profitable purely with just that very specific audience that seems really weird to me i mean the idea was that the advertisers were and you got it for free by the way the advertisers knew they were reaching the people with the money who bought stuff sure and

you're advertising the stuff and like that that on one level it's actually kind of a brilliant it's an old business model but at the time it was kind of brilliant, which is people wanted to get it, but they couldn't get it. But the advertisers knew, even though it was a small audience, it was a super select audience of the people who had the money to buy their products in volume. And they really wanted to reach those people. But you know, the truth is, and I thought this at the time, I remember reading, so McAwee would come out, I forget what day it was, and we would get them at our offices. We were down in Foster City on the peninsula. They were up in San Francisco. They even kept us geographically separate for a very long time. I remember the new McQueeks would come in, and this is before the web, or at least before they were on the web. I would get the issue. And I remember walking to lunch, uh, go get a sandwich across. There was like a big circle, uh, pathway with lawn in the middle. And then on the other side of it was like a sandwich shop and a supermarket and stuff. It was the, it was a big office tower located in

the suburbs. It was really sleepy. There's stuff there now, but not when I was there. Um, and I would, I would walk over and I would stand in line at Togo's and I would order my sandwich and they would make my sandwich and they would give me my sandwich. And then I would walk over and I would stand in line at Togo's and I would order my sandwich and they would make my sandwich and they would give me my sandwich. And then I would walk back. And all the while I'm reading the new issue of Mac week. It was fun. Even then what struck me about it was this is for entertainment, right? Like this is gossip. This is for entertainment. And while there is a useful quality to it, and there is even today's rumors have the effect of saying don't buy a macbook air m2 right now the m3 is coming out and the m2 will probably go lower in price right the mac room is buying guide right that's exactly people still use it absolutely don't buy an ipad

right now because in may there are going to be new ipads it's absolutely true that that is a component of it but let's also not kid ourselves that a component of it is Apple won't talk about what they're working on. And when it happens, there's a lot of detail and there's a lot of PR spin, and then we can talk about it then. But it's more fun to have it spread out and to talk about what Apple might be doing in advance, right? It is. We have a draft. We have these rumor roundup segments. It is more fun. I think it's sometimes interesting because it gives us more space to wonder about why they're doing what they're doing because Apple will never say why. Even when they come out with a product, they'll never say why. It gives us a little more space, a little more time to think about it. And I like that. I like it. It helps me. I would even maybe

make the argument that self-serving, though it might be a little bit, that it helps me think about all the aspects of the product before the product gets announced. So I can sort of go on a little journey about what this product might be and where it fits and all of those things. But I think it's also fair to say it is not Watergate or the Pentagon Papers. It is in part, I mean, as much as Bloomberg will say will say well and then apple stock changed in the hours after this report when it has no connection whatsoever um i do think it does it is also about entertainment so it's fair it's fair but at the same time if somebody i'm not in this business but like if somebody comes to me or you know puts an anonymous thing in our feedback form one of mike's anonymous informants saying here's a thing that's going on at apple or I get these I get messages from people who are like I work at Apple or I worked at Apple

and I can explain a little bit of the backstory and that helps inform my understanding of the thing we're talking about I can find that I find that useful I will accept it I'm not going to be like no no no you shouldn't be talking about that friend. Hands off that information. I don't, the onus is not on me. Like it is their job to know what they can and can't say. And it's not, I'm not going to go to them, but if they come and bring it to me, and I will say this is generally accepted as the difference in journalism. And you can like it or not. You could argue like, oh, one other piece about Michael Gartenberg's statement that I thought was interesting is he said this guy really screwed Apple quite a bit.

And this is what I would say to that. I also think Apple dramatically overstates the damage that leaks do. I think leaks do in like 90% of cases, 99% of cases, do no damage to Apple. None at all. Apple wants to make a splash and have it be a surprise and all of that. But you know what? They seem to be doing okay. And almost every major Apple announcement of the last, I don't know, 20 years, 30 years has been reported in advance and it hasn't mattered. It doesn't really matter. So on that level, it's also a game that's being played that doesn't

matter. And that would be my counter argument to Apple suing the guy who absolutely violated his conditions of employment is I don't think Apple really wants to talk about the tangible damage that was done because I don't think there really is any. I think Apple's doubling down on secrecy about product announcements is just as much about theater and entertainment as the leaks are about theater and entertainment i would argue neither of them really matters and while apple absolutely has the right to roll out their products in the way that they choose i am dubious that leaking something here and there really makes a difference so i think one of the things that guttenberg is getting at which i'm intrigued what your opinion is on this is like this kid's career is over right and like maybe his entire professional career especially depending on what the outcome of this um lawsuit

is is there a responsibility from the reporters or is there like should the reporters feel i hate to use this word but guilty in any way about this or is it just like well this is just the way that it went down no i think i look i think this is a gray area that i think is worth considering which is if you are the reporter on the receiving end of information from somebody and they're your source and you realize what they're doing is kind of, I mean, and you may not know, they may be really cloaked, but there is potentially a moment where as the receiver of the information, you have to say, am I protecting my sources or am I going to leave them hang hung out to dry and know that they're going to burn out, but that's okay. There'll be another one later.

And this guy's going to be ruined. Um, but that's okay because there'll be another guy tomorrow and I don't care. Like I, I, I wouldn't want to live like that. Right. However, how do you tell? I think that's the problem is if, if I got a signal from a source, I do this now, I do this now when people send me stuff and I'm like, I'm not going to even, I'm not going to even,

I'm going to, I'm going to obscure this a little bit because I think they were a little too specific here. I'm going to obscure this a little bit. And I honestly, I think Mark Gurman probably does that too. Right. Where he,

he's obscuring things that maybe he could get away with more specifics but in doing so it's actually riskier for the source now that's self-serving as well but i think that's one of the things that maybe you know like we've spoken about the way that mark started speaking and writing differently at bloomberg and maybe that might have been a bloomberg thing of like this is our rules on how you protect your sources sure so so what i would say is i think there is an ethical issue where if you're if you are as a reporter um in a position where you've been given something and you can report it and it's by a source that you trust and i don't know how this would come up but that in doing so you think it to, you know, if not this time, then sometime soon it is going to reveal who the source is and they're going to get, you know, fired and sued.

Honestly, I think most journalists would be motivated to protect them in the sense that they want to keep getting information from them. protect them in the sense that they want to keep getting information from them but certainly in terms of just a human being you know i i wouldn't i wouldn't want to publish information that destroyed somebody's career right yeah but how do you know i mean it is also one of the reasons i'm not in that business yes is that it's a really dangerous game to play and i'm not saying here that that these reporters didn't do this but like you know i would hope at least they learn now to be like all right we're talking a signal but is this your personal phone or is this your work phone oh 100 like i feel like if you were establishing a long-term relationship with someone right like it's not just a one-off leak surely you've got to to have a conversation

of like yeah how are we going to share this information like i feel like that there has to be like uh you are you should that is like it feels to me like the effective way in which you protect your source certainly everybody needs to change the faq for anonymous sources to say look you being on signal is not enough. Are you on signal on a device not managed by your employer? Like, it's like, here's some tips. Now, so you've decided to be an informant. And then like, here are the ways

that you don't get caught, right? That totally should be part of it. And my guess is that the people at the information who don't know who this guy is, presumably, or only vaguely know who this guy is, I think there's probably an assumption that they know what they're doing, especially since they contacted through Signal and all of that. How would you know that it was a managed device? But that's why you're right. You want to start.

And for all I know, they do this to some people. They maybe even did it to this guy. And maybe Mark Gurman does this too. But that whole idea of like, if you've got a good source, one way you can help is to guide them to not getting caught. Which, again, I don't think is necessarily unethical because they came to you. But it could be argued, right? It could be argued that if you're making them a better leaker. Yeah, if you're making them a better leaker. Let me tell you how a better leaker let me tell you how to really never get caught i'm not sure that that is ethical

or not but the more that you because this is the weird gray area right and again when there is no judgment on anyone here we're just talking about this but the more that you encourage someone the worse you are making it for them when they inevitably get caught right yes and that and that's that's all part of the give and take. And it's one reason that I don't really want to and have never really wanted to be in this particular business. But I think you can do it and be ethical. I really do.

I think you can be. I don't think it's fundamentally unethical to report on some businesses' secrets because they are not national security secrets, as Michael Gartenberg says. But on the other hand, they're not national security secrets. Yeah. gartenberg says but on the other hand they're not national security secrets right like yeah both of those things are true and yeah right they're not

important they're not but that cuts both ways yeah yeah so it's interesting i would love uh maybe one day we will chat to mark german about not about what he's reporting and not about who his sources are but about how he handles sources. Because I'm not blaming him or the people of the information. This is hard. And it's really tricky. And I think there are ways to do this ethically. And I wonder about that. But there are lots of gray areas too, as you said. So anyway, my short version of version of this is it's this guy's fault. It's not the information's fault. It's this guy's fault.

And, uh, the information might be an accomplice or an accessory in a way, but really if it came over, unless they recruited him like a spy or something, if it came over the transom and it's not really their job to make sure he's not going to get caught, even though they might help, it's not their job

and and while this information i think is um i don't think i don't i don't think it's wrong to publish information like this um and i also question how dangerous it is to apple and how vital it is to the public interest i think those those are also both true. Like just the sham of it being like important for business planning purposes, not that it can be that way, but that mostly it's about just the interest in finding out what Apple's doing next. But also at the same time, I don't think it really causes damage to Apple. I just don't, I don't believe that. I don't, fundamentally, Apple will tell you we're doubling down on security,

on privacy, you know, we're doubling down on our product announcement security because we want to make it secret and then make it a big stink. I get that that's their PR approach, but I would argue that there is very little difference in most cases between an Apple product launch where we know sort of what's going to happen and an Apple product launch where we don't know what's going to happen in terms of the net effect to Apple, the net benefit to Apple. There's a little, but it's overstated. It's just completely overstated. So two points I want to make to finish this up. One, if you're a journalist listening to this show and you get this kind of information,

please make sure that you have a thorough checklist that you're going through with your informants to make sure that they're not going to get caught in this manner. Two, I know we have a lot of young people listening to this show. I know we have a lot of young people listening to this show who work at Apple. Don't do this. It's not worth it.

This guy's career is over. You don't want to be in that scenario. Don't do it. I know that sometimes it's fun don't want to be in that scenario. Don't do it. I know that sometimes it's fun and you want to share things with people. And what I'll say to you is something that I've experienced, which I think is super great.

I meet people and they're like, hey, you know that thing? I worked on that thing. It's already out there. No one's going to get in trouble for that. That's what I was going to say is the people I talk to who are currently working at Apple, just to be clear about this they are incredibly diligent

about this i absolutely do hear from them after something comes out where they're like oh yeah yep i've been i i had one that was like literally vision pro got announced and like oh yeah i've been using that for nine months oh my god but they won't say because they care say, because they care. Yeah, I have a bunch, same as you, I have a bunch of personal friends, like good personal friends who work at Apple. They don't tell me what they work on and I don't ask because I don't want that on me. Yeah, and they, so generally I would say

Apple employees are very diligent about this. And when I do talk to them about shop talk, it's generally about, not only is it not about secrets, but it's generally ways that they allow me to be better informed so that I don't make mistakes about what Apple is doing, which is incredibly valuable. And I appreciate. So they're very diligent and generally acting in Apple's best interests. And I'm glad that they feel like they're able to do that, but they are, you know, they are, they're taking care. They're not trying to,

like, again, they have the ability to keep secrets. That would be very difficult. Like, it must be painful, right? To hear a podcaster talking about a thing and you know absolutely everything about it

and can't say anything about it, but they do it because they know that those are the rules. Just send me a note like everything you said was wrong. I'm not going to tell you what, but it was all wrong. I'll get them next time. And if you're going to use upgradefeedback.com to send us

anonymous information, don't do it from Apple. Don't do it from inside the building or no on or on an apple managed device please do not do that just don't do it kids please just don't like i i want you all to have really long successful careers yeah there there really isn't much worth to it it's okay it would not bother me if rumor roundup went away you know like i like this segment i find it fun it never will if the rumors and leaks stopped i'd also be okay but it never will but it never will just never it never will it never will that supply chain at the very least but it you know it just

it won't because people are people and and the same stuff that was feeding mac the knife in 1992 is feeding mark german now and that's just how it is it's the not the same people it's just the same dynamic i really wish i genuinely wish austin all day the best because guys it's in a rough shape now and i tough i feel bad for them this episode is brought to you by uni pizza ovens uni is the world's number one pizza oven company they let you make restaurant quality pizza in your own home let me tell you like what about on your own home. Let me tell you, like, what about on your own kitchen counter? I have one of those Uni-Volt ovens, they're the electric ovens. I'm going to tell you all about their range in a minute. But like, I take this thing out of the cupboard and I put it on the counter, I plug it in, and then I make an incredible pizza at home.

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So go to uni.com, that is O-O-N-I.com, and use the code UPGRADE2024 for 10% off. Our thanks to Uni Pizza ovens for their support of this show and RelayFM. So you wrote an article about immersive, a couple actually on immersive content on the Vision Pro. Sparked because we finally have more immersive video. So Apple put out a selection of immersive videos when the Vision Pro launched.

There was one about High Wire. There was an Alicia Keys video. There was a dinosaur video. And there was like this sizzle reel video of like lots of different types of things that you could watch in an immersive environment right though a lot of these things said like episode one yeah but there have been no more episodes in these shows no apple hasn't released any more immersive content since the launch of vision pro and so then apple announced that there was going to be a we knew about this a while ago actually it was referenced um in a

press release about an mls uh season pass referenced the fact that they were doing a highlight reel in immersive video for the 2023 season mls cup the mls cup yes which is Which is like, is that a separate thing to the season? Like it's like the playoffs? It's the postseason. It's the playoffs. Okay, it's the playoffs. Okay, cool. So we knew this, and then they announced it was coming.

Oh, great. Here it is. It's going to come out. And then we found out it was a five-minute highlight package of the MLS season. Or of the, yeah, of the playoffs. Of the playoffs. I'm sorry. The cup.

The MLS cup. You ask a bunch of questions in your article that I'd like to talk about with you. season or of this yeah of the of the playoffs of the playoffs i'm sorry the cup the mls cup you ask a bunch of questions in your article that i'd like to talk about with you the first being why did it take three months to produce a highlight package yeah which is a great question more than three months to to do a five minute highlight package because they obviously have had the cameras throughout the entire thing so like you know is this how long this content takes? Was it not a priority? I don't know. MLS Cup Final was like December 10th

or something like that. And they didn't even get it ready for the season opener. Yep. So what's the holdup? And why have we not seen any other immersive videos? So the MLS Cup took 100 days

and there have been no other releases. Even though we've seen clips in the sizzle reel, none of those have been released too yep uh you and i've heard a couple who mentioned that the video is just not good you didn't like you didn't enjoy it yeah so you know sometimes you you have to make a judgment and not know and not have talked to anybody else about it and just you got to be out on your own. And that was the case with me when I watched that immersive video. I watched it and I thought, oh, this is bad.

And I was laughing because today I got Stratechery and Ben Thompson wrote about the sizzle reel. And I'm like, oh boy, what does Ben think? And Ben was like, this is bad. And I'm like, yeah, all right. It's not just me. It's bad. It's bad, Mike.

It's a bad choice. Yeah, I watched it too. It's bad just me. It's bad. It's bad, Mike. It's a bad choice. Yeah, I watched it too. It's bad. And why is it bad? I think is very instructive. I think it's really instructive. It is edited like a regular video highlight reel. It's lots of quick cuts. It's five minutes long, first off. Lots of quick cuts. It actually shows all of the potential of immersive video and fails at all of it. Yeah. The moment that blew me away is there's a moment where you're watching somebody move toward the goal with the ball.

And it's like you're on the sideline and you're seeing the artistry of the detailed technical skill of these soccer players that you don't see from far off. It's actually harder on tv and so your your eyes are watching the ball maybe and then it cuts to a different angle and you've only been there for a few seconds but it cuts to a different angle and where the ball and the player were is now some dude with an all-access pass standing on the sideline behind the goal watching the action. And I'm like, why am I watching this dude? So my point is, every time you make a cut, you have to reorient. And it takes seconds, right? Because now you're in a new place and you

got to look around and like you missed the goals in the highlight reel. You missed the goals because they've cut from the side view to the behind the goal view. So, which is a better view of the actual goal, but in doing so you miss the goal because they cut and didn't give you enough time to reorient. And this is the lesson that I'm very grateful that this video was released in this way, because it's a lesson that I've learned. I had hoped that they would have learned this while they were working on it, but that didn't happen. I have learned the lesson, which is immersive video takes time. You can't quick cut immersive video.

The whole idea is immersion. So like, I love that shot behind the goal. I love the shot from the sideline. So like, I love that shot behind the goal. I love the shot from the sideline. I love the shot from the field before the game where you're looking at a full stadium and fireworks are going off in the sky. I love the shot of the jacked up supporters in the stands with their wacky signs. And when they're pulling the big banner up over them, right?

That just looks fun. Yeah. the big banner up over them right that just looks yeah yeah which is the the the what is it the columbus fans put hell is real on a banner which is there's a whole story about the hell is real sign you can look it up um it is each individual shot is like a oh yeah this is what it's good for but at no point in the video did i feel like i was at the event. Instead, I was constantly discombobulated. So great for me in that I got to learn about what not to do in immersive video and great that I have now discovered that other people feel the same way. But it squandered the opportunity completely, which is you got to take your time. And the other videos that Apple has released, the high wire and all that, they take the time. That's the difference is they take the time and you settle in and now you're there and that's the magic of it. So I don't want a highlight reel. I want to be courtside.

I want to settle in and feel the excitement and the occasional cut. Of course, the Alicia Keys video is a great example. It cuts occasionally, but if it cut like a music video, it would be unwatchable because every time they cut, you're looking at the wrong thing. And then you got to look around and see where everything is. And like part of the glory of immersive video is that you're seated in a spot and you can look around and you can explore what's around you and your surroundings and you become immersed in it. And you can never do that when there's a quick cut. So, one, it's not very good. Two, why did it take so long?

And three, is there nobody at Apple who looked at this video and said, oh, no, this is bad, actually. And maybe they did. And maybe the fact is the way it was shot, they can't go back to the MLS Cup playoffs. They can't. The footage they've got is the footage they've got. Maybe there was a technical reason why they couldn't really do something. But I assumed that that MLS Cup final would be a 15 minute long kind of like immersion into the final. And it was actually like two minutes of the five minute video with a bunch

of quick cuts it's like it's just a mistake maybe they were forced into a corner with some technical issues i don't know but i don't really want to make excuses for them and so i don't know what's going on with apple immersive video it's a problem right there they have they have no content and their latest release suggests a misunderstanding of what it's good at like the the video shows the promise like there are so many parts of it where i'm like this looks great there's a moment that it takes your breath away and then it's gone right and you don't get to spend time in it yeah and it's not you know like there's that sizzle reel which is fun because it's showing the promise of the sizzle reel, but I don't need to keep being shown promise. Right.

Right. Like I've already seen what football can look like because it was in the sizzle reel. They had a, they had a shot. Right. So like, I don't need this particularly.

Oh, like this would be fine. If there was already more, right. Like if they had released another 10 videos this would be like okay this one maybe wasn't great but it's cool i got to see some fun shots of the football like that's fine it still would be broken and you'd be like this is not how you do sports we wouldn't be so like we wouldn't be talking about it specifically. But we're desperate for content.

Yeah. Because there hasn't been any. And this is what they got. So it's that double whammy of they haven't had any content. And then the first thing they release is not good. It's just, I mean, it's funny too, because I really expected my reaction to be, oh, okay. Either dazzled or like, oh, interesting. There are things that work about it and there are

things that don't. I did not expect at all to watch five minutes of it and think, oh, this is just bad. I like just bad. My short review of it is, Quick Cuts is the wrong format for this. And while it's not unwatchable, it's not good. It shows everything that's the promise and fails to deliver on all of the promise. It couldn't have done a better job of delineating what's the promise and fails to deliver on all of the promise it's the he couldn't have done a better job of delineating what's the promise of sports immersive video and how not to do it i don't think i am as harsh on it as you or ben thompson but i completely understand where you're coming from right but like for me i do see it was like i watched it and was like this looks good i'm enjoying what i'm seeing but can see that there is absolutely not enough of it and it's just the wrong format and so what my assumption is the people that put together they are used to making that format sports 2d uh 16 by 9 hd sports highlight reels

that's that it feels like that it feels exactly like that that this is not a demo of immersive video it's a highlight reel that happens to be an immersive video which is which is a classic mistake right it is the new medium mistake it It's like saying, hey, television was invented, so let's record stage plays with television cameras. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what television is for. And like, so to, you know, again, like just to underscore what you were saying at the start,

like you're, say you've got like a three or four second clip and there's something catches your eye to the left and you look at it and you want to see what's going on. But then the clip changes. Now, if you're watching on something on a screen, that's fine because you're just following along with whatever the director is showing you at this moment. And your field of view encompasses the entire image, right?

Yeah, but in Division Pro, you've moved your head. Like you're looking in the wrong direction from what's happening now. Looking at that guy standing on the sidelines instead of the goal because that's where the cut has left me yeah but the the when it was good though like oh i thought it was real good like watching goals in that scenario is fantastic seeing the reactions like there's this one where you you see the goalkeeper kind of slam his hands on the ground you see the guy who just scored looking back at him with a smile on his face like this

is real good i need more of yeah this part you know yeah well that's the that is the contrast and that's why i think it's so fascinating is i think that as a as a package it it blows it. But the individual elements are amazing, right? Like it is strangely a video that makes me desperately want more immersive sports video. And at the same time, I think it's a failure. And so what does that mean? I mean, it means they did this one wrong, but boy, this is gonna be great when they figure it out.

And I'm a little frustrated that they hadn't figured it out. Like, I don't know. I don't know who watched this. And again, I don't know the backstory. I don't know who could watch this and say, no, this is how it should look in immersive video. And again, the backstory may be they had to get it out. They were technical problems. They were very limited in what they could do. If it's a choice, it was just desperately the wrong creative choice, but it may be that there are complications here and that they're well aware of the limitations of this and onto the next one. But like the individual moments, like you mentioned the goals, the goals are amazing. The sideline view, the artistry, this is what I always feel about soccer is that, and I feel this way about baseball too, is like they reward closer viewing. When you are an in-depth fan, like I think one of the reasons the NFL is popular is that the NFL is great on its surface. It's very exciting. It also rewards closer viewing if you understand how the game is being played at a high level. But if you don't understand it, it's just

fun to watch it. Soccer is sort of fun to watch, but if you go into the details, it's amazing. And like pitching and hitting in baseball and the confrontation between the pitcher and the catcher, or not the catcher, the pitcher and the catcher are fighting against the batter. And the batter's trying to guess and they're trying to outwit the batter. And if you dial into that level of the game and can see it which tv does really well and it's much harder when you're in the upper deck baseball can be really magical well soccer my point here is unless you're at the event or you're watching real closely or in immersive video you're right on the sideline every foot, every body move that these soccer players do in order to get advantage on the defender, in order to move the ball into a

position where they can put it somewhere else, the passes, the shots, just like the more of that you see from close up, it's really amazing, right? And that's in there. It's just so fleeting. And honestly, the fans, I'll say it again, the fans, the atmosphere, they,

they have the Columbus stadium. They have the LA stadium. They have the stadium in Seattle, um, packed. You're in a stadium. You're on the field in a stadium full of screaming fans. And then you see the fans like it's awesome. Unfortunately,

like none of it is enough. None of it. Like every shot is individually brilliant and there's not enough of any of it. Plus I missed the goals because I'm looking somewhere else. And that's just a mistake. Like you can't, you can't do it.

Like I, I had to back, I had to back up, which breaks the immersion and then like like okay i need to be looking over here in this shot even though that's not what i want to look at so i can see where that uh the goal scorer is coming from it's like you just can't you can't do that no good it's no good but this isn't the only way to watch sports uh on the vision prog uh the mlb app has been updated and it seems like you were expecting something

cool that was not delivered so uh i'm taking a journey here uh with mlb i've got i'm gonna write a piece about some good things about mlb uh that i haven't written about i wrote a couple pieces about this last week because it was opening day start of the season um they let the baseballs out they let the baseballs out of the gate and And on Friday, we're going to the Giants game, unless we get rained out, and we'll get to watch the San Francisco baseballs be rolled out. That is your team. Let's go Giants. Let's go Jason.

Let's go Giants. Yeah, exactly. I was going to say. Let's go Snell. Let's hear it for Snell. Let's go Snell. Yeah, exactly. Let's go.

Okay. By the way, listen to the talk show. That story about Shohei Yotani, which is the first I'd heard of it. Wild. It's go. Okay, so... By the way, listen to the talk show. That story about Shohei Yotani, which is the first I'd heard of it. Wild. It's bananas, right? Incredible. Yeah, and who better to talk about baseball and gambling than John Gruber? Yeah, incredible.

So, first off, I'll say the iPad app, just my iPad app of the MLB app just doesn't launch on my Mac anymore. They didn't update, and I heard from a lot of people who say that that's the case although i have since also heard from a couple people who say it doesn't crash on their mac i don't know what's going on there anyway so that stinks but that was just a side note to the vision pro app which since the vision pro came out there's been an mlb app but all it does is play like game two of the world

series from last fall it's a demo it's great good idea actually to have a demo on there well they they released the official live version for opening day and it feels very much like it's um it got rushed out the door for opening day and they weren't ready so like the main window you know how in vision pro you can put a window further away and and everything the content is still basically the same size it's just further away in depth um mlb app isn't like that if you put it further away it gets really tiny like what are you doing uh and the control uh the little closed bar and and and and handling bar at the bottom are like i don't know about the length but like they're way far below the window which is weird it's like what's going it's not like any other one um start a video there's some

selection problems there i had to get it really close before i could actually like properly select a video to stream it opens a new window with that video but the main window remains visible which some apps do some apps don't but I don't need the main window. I've got my video playing. So I do the close on the main window, the close box. The whole thing goes away. You can't close the main window, but the whole thing just quits. Okay, great. So I put the main window somewhere else and I'm watching. And first off, I don't see any game day information, which is this other mode that they put in. Turns out it is there, although I'm not sure it was there on the video I was looking at on day one, but it is there.

It's on the video playing. So to get into game day mode, you have to be watching a video, which means that if you're blacked out on video, you can't watch it. Let me tell you what game day mode is because it's very clever so it's it's it's an immersive space which i don't like i don't think it needs to be immersive i it precludes other apps from running along with it which i don't like um but what you get is you get like a big scoreboard that is the video and of the game playing and a bunch of information like the pitch tracking and a lot of play-by-play data lots of data and then below it is a field well you have two options it's it's the home plate and the strike zone and every pitch you see the ball come in with the actual

trajectory and whether it was a ball or a strike but the the other mode is a field, which I love. And it's the whole field, like on my floor. And every player is a little disc, a little circle with their number on it. And as the game and the ball, like you see when the pitch is thrown, there's a little streak from the pitcher to the catcher. When a ball is hit up in the air, you see the ball go up in the air and it marks like the exit velocity and the the apex how high it was at the at the top of the arc and then where it comes down that's all in there pretty awesome um however it would lose players so i would frequently get in a position where like the left fielder was just gone third baseman was gone sometimes the the it would show the base

runners sometimes it wouldn't show the base runners the base runners were not a different color so that was super confusing because you couldn't tell the second baseman from the runner on second base um occasionally numbers it would get confused and it never resolved it so like a base runner would run down to first base and be very close to the first baseman obviously and then suddenly they would pop there would just be one circle there and the and and one of them had been i don't know assimilated and never came back and you could never see that that base runner again by the first basement again just buggy just super buggy um it's a hard it feels like a hard thing to do because it requires them requires the live data and that kind of stuff. And they have the live data.

They have all the live data. And I don't blame them. They're trying to do cutting-edge things, but it's super buggy. And I think it struck me that it was really buggy on day one. For something like the 3D stuff, I don't blame them. That is a brand new technology that they're trying to do. However, the home window being broken isn't great. The fact that if you close it, your video stops playing is bad. And then you know how I love a quad box, Mike. You can't play more than one video at a time. Nobody loves quad boxes more than you.

time right and you can't do it you can't say i want to play this game and then put it over there and then i want to play this game and i put it over there it just won't do it first game goes away but come on guys so hopefully they will get up to speed with it but it was a real disappointment on opening day i love their ambition but um but it's it's buggy and kind of broken and it's too bad um i will say i do want to throw in a positive note and I will write about this which is the Apple TV app got updated to support the quad box they have their own quad box they used to be picture-in-picture only and it is in some ways the best quad box implementation I've seen on Apple TV in that it has a lot of clarity it puts up like what buttons you need to push to change the modes so that you don't get lost. Lauren was telling me how I do the quad box on the Fubo app on Apple TV, but she never does because she doesn't even know. Because you got to do swipes and click and holds and stuff.

And you got to become like an expert at driving that app. MLB app puts up a little thing in text that says press this button to get the audio and press this button to bring it to the center. And, and there's a little strip, you swipe down and there's a little strip of games and you like, it says, click to add or click to remove. It's really well done. Um, and something that tells me about my expectations for software being bad, like it does what it should and i was surprised by it which is i'm in quad box or double box or triple box or whatever multi-view they call it right and each game you can click to zoom in and on that screen it's got the game day view as an option and game day on the Apple TV.

It like pulls the image back a little bit and it puts like the live pitch data and stuff around it. It's, it's cool. It's a lot of data, but if you're a certain kind of nerd, it's really awesome. And I thought, I can't believe I can enter game day from here. But I thought, I bet I'm out of multi-view now. Like it probably took me out of multi-view. So I press the back button and it zooms back out to full screen and the game day view goes away and i think what happens if i press the back button again and i press the back button and it zoomed it back out into multi-view and i thought huh

like that's how it should work right and yet i had zero expectation that it would do it the right way i i figured i had i had silently left into a different mode and i was gonna have to exit that and then rebuild my multi-view and all that no they built it all it's really great my only complaint about multi-view is that there aren't multiple layouts if you want to watch four games at once one of them is big and then there are three on the side that are little whereas fubo lets you do the four up where it's literally four screens in a rectangle one two three four um filling your entire screen they don't do that probably in part so that they can put up their little text and like help you use this feature but i would love that but otherwise honestly apple tv app pretty great so thumbs up to them for that vision pro i, I love their Moxie.

I love what they're trying. It's broken. It's busted. And I'd also really like the iPad app to launch on my Mac. That would be great. But anyway, I see the potential. MLB has enormous amounts of data, live data about their games. And that 3D field is their attempt to display it.

And if they can get that right it will be amazing because i was i literally mike i literally just got and sat down on my floor like i was a kid in kindergarten like let's all get on the floor but for me i sat down on the floor so i was next to my little magic model baseball stadium and i could watch the little baseballs get hit up into the sky and come down and the little circles ran around and stuff and I thought this is it's and you can look up at essentially the scoreboard where the video of the game was playing it was pretty cool it was pretty cool there's some potential there I had a similar experience uh I tried out an app called vroom for formula one this is a beta I'll put a link in the show notes

to a Vimeo video as a test flight link in there. It's actually developed by Chaos Tian, who was the person who was the... To disassemble a keyboard and make a touch ID button.

This app requires F1 TV. If you have F1 TV, which is a paid service which is mostly available outside of the uk don't ask but yes you is able to use it and it's amazing so you can have you can watch the races you can have all of the quad box kind of views around the outside of specific drivers. So you can see they're on board cameras, which is the thing you can do in the F1 TV app for VisionOS as well. But this app also has a live track simulation. So you can see where all of the drivers are on the track at all times going around the track.

It's incredible. So good. I love it. So good. I love it. So good. There have been a few of these kinds of things. I've seen a lot of mock-ups for Vision OS stuff. This is the first app that I've actually been able to use that does it.

And F1 need to just do this. They just need to do this. This is really cool. Because they have all the data. F1 is very data focused. And I use another app called BoxBox, which gives me a live activity of stuff that's happening, and you can know all the information in real time.

It's all API-based as well, especially F1 TV, so you can get access to all of the stuff, so it's very cool. Especially sports, with a Vision Pro, there is a lot of promise. We just need to see it realized. But we're early days. This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN. Watching services like Netflix without using ExpressVPN, it's a little like buying tickets to your favorite artist,

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get an extra three months of ExpressVPN for free and you'll be supporting the show. Our thanks to ExpressVPN for their support of this show and RelayFM. Let's finish out with some Ask Upgrade questions. First comes from Max who says, do you think the

Walmart M1 MacBook Air deal is the truth behind or the strategy that replaces the rumors from last year that apple was working on a less expensive laptop i don't think so i think i mean strategy that replaces maybe but like the rumors were about supply chain and they were about actually trying to engineer a lower cost macbook um it's possible i think it's also entirely possible that what is going on is that Apple is in the long run wanting to have a product in that space and when the M1 MacBook Air can no longer be sold. And can they roll down the M2 into that space or do they really want to create a cheaper to produce laptop? to produce laptop the challenge there is any new laptop is not cheaper to produce because it's new and and that's difficult for them so that's why they roll down old models instead so um it might

be related but i don't think it's what was motivating those rumors that because the rumors were about engineering a new laptop not about making the m1 go to a different place that's an old laptop i do i can imagine a scenario where there were a few things on the like board one of them was making a new one but they ended up going with this which i actually think this is a pretty good strategy like i like this heavily discounted macbook air thing i think it makes. I think the question is, because also this isn't the end of it, right? That rumor, it's entirely possible that that's a product that even if they decided to go with it, wouldn't be out for another year or two, right? It's not necessarily that they did a bunch of work and said, no, let's just sell the M1, right? I mean, maybe, but my guess is that

it's a longer term kind of thing than that. But maybe they put it all together and realized that it didn't make sense and that the best thing to do was just to keep selling the old laptops for a while at a low price. I've got two questions here. I think they're two sides of the same coin. So I'm reading both. Lee asks, is the Department of Justice case actually now in Tim Cook's legacy? Under his tenure, the actions and choices from Apple have led them to these moments of conflict with regulators. So rather than a car or the Vision Pro, is this Tim's legacy?

Albert asks, given Apple's handling of the DMA and AI, do you think it's reasonable to consider it is time for Tim Cook to step down? So they're both sides of the same coin you want me to flip a coin is that what's happening now you ask well no i think that the well i think you understand what i'm saying that both of these questions are of a similar thing of like is tim to blame for all of this is this what's going to follow him around yeah i just wanted to talk about coin flipping oh Oh, yeah. No, we don't let you flip coins. You're not allowed to flip coins. So, all right. To be determined, I'm sorry to say it this way, but this is how it has to be, is what is the result?

If the result is a nothing or an almost nothing, minor changes to Apple's business model that don't actually have major effects on apple's future then no to all yeah if apple ends up having its business model deeply disrupted in a way that everybody views as being avoidable which is a question right like it may be that if there's a deep disruption in Apple's business model, we'll look back and say, how would they have satisfied these people, right? How would they have changed their case? And because it's possible that they, all the things we've said, oh, this could have been avoided if you did all these things. It's possible that wouldn't have avoided it, that it was going to happen. They didn't make it better, right? But it's possible that this was unavoidable. So if it goes badly and Apple ends up being, you know, broken up or their business model is

invalidated because they have to start building APIs for everything that is integrated with their own products and that makes everything more difficult for them. And as a result, Apple, as a business is kind of broken. Absolutely. It's part of Tim Cook's legacy. But the, the, dare I say the jury's still out? There is no jury yet, but there may be at a time in the future. I think those are the questions. History is not yet to be written on this point. So it could be his legacy. I think, and, and is it reasonable to consider if it's time for him to step down? Well, given Apple's handling of AI, you mean the thing that they haven't announced yet? And is it reasonable to say that Apple should or that Tim Cook should step down because Apple didn't have a large language model out there last year? No, it's not.

That's stupid. It's stupid. If, history's not written, if in five years it turns out that AI completely changed how computing works and Apple never got there because they were sleeping too long, then yes. Then it's a great question, right? I just don't now. And judged by market valuation and profits and revenue, Tim Cook's legacy is that Apple scaled up from a company that had a lot of potential to a company that had all the money. And that if I had to guess, that will be his legacy. But the truth is, legacy when? Legacy now? Legacy in five years?

Legacy in 20 years, right? Because it's possible from the vantage point of 20 years, we'll say, oh, Tim Cook, yeah, they made a lot of money then, but then they kind of got in trouble and lost their way. Or we might say, oh, Tim Cook, yeah, they made a lot of money and then they went out of business or were regulated out of business. Or we might say, oh, yeah, Tim Cook, he really grew Apple to a whole new level. And then they just kept going from there. But we, you know, in five years and 20 years, the legacy is, is constantly being recalculated. I, I, I, you know, but for right now, I'd say that, uh, people right now, the judgment would be that he took a business that was smaller and granted had a lot of the pieces ready to go,

right? People like, well, Steve jobs got all that ready. It's like, he did get it already, but Tim cooks, the one who took all that stuff that he inherited from Steve jobs and

presided over this enormous expansion of Apple size and uh profitability and revenue generation um so it all i sorry to not give a straight answer to this question no i think this is i actually think you've given i think the perfect the only right answer which is that like at this point for both of these things and the reason i put these things i've had a few we've had a few questions like this. It is too soon to suggest that either of these things were a mistake. Like currently, all of the things that have led to the DMA and the DOJ, they were a scenario of the exact right thing to do

because Apple is massive, massive. And it makes so much money. And you can make a very good argument that Tim Cook did exactly what he was supposed to do, which was make the most money possible. yet that the dma or something again the dma and and uh and the u.s regulations like could break apple i think the most likely scenario is apple after protesting that a lot of the changes that are wanted are anathema to apple's entire business model and it's it's credo of protecting its customers. Um, and we all say that it is actually because Apple wants to make more money that the concessions Apple has to make to satisfy everybody are so limited that while Apple makes a little less money, they've already made that up in growth and that no major changes to their business model are instituted and they

keep on going right like i think that that's actually the most likely scenario is that what changes is minor um but you know if i worked at apple i would be really worried about the risk that the change is going to be major and it's going to break our business i would be yeah but i i'm i'm and i'm trying not to be cynical here but but I suspect that the way this will work is Apple will give in on things that turns out don't actually matter as much as Apple says they do. But they want a posture that they do so that they can be pained when they do it so that it limits the scope. And that in other cases, they basically deal with a U.S. system that is generally favoring big U.S. companies anyway, so they can get away with even less. So I think that's the most likely scenario, in which case Tim Cook's entire approach would

be more or less vindicated. But it's too early for us to say. I certainly don't. If they get really, really, really, really shafted by the EU or by the United States and it breaks their business, then it absolutely would be reasonable to say Tim Cook has to leave, right? Because they're going to need to show some resignations and say, we're changing our entire approach because you're right and we're chastened and we're going to be a different company now. But boy, we're a long way from that.

I don't think we're going to get there. I don't think so. There is a scenario. It's highly unlikely. Yes, there is a scenario in which one of these things could be so horrifically bad that really the only smart thing to do from a PR perspective is to have a new CEO. Yes, that could happen. I do not think that's going to happen.

I just don't. I don't think that compliance with the DMA or with the Department of Justice case, I don't even think it would massively impact the company. I think you would end up with a scenario where it's put to the test what we're saying has been the the case forever which is people just want to buy iphones and use their iphones and that complying with all of this stuff doesn't really make a material difference because people just want to use their iphones earlier in this podcast we talked about how apple i think overstates the value of secrecy in product announcements. I think Apple overstates the importance of lots of stuff, and they do it strategically.

And this is a case where I think Apple has dramatically overstated, not that it isn't true, but that they overstate the impact of all sorts of things, like what the EU is trying to do, the EC is trying to do, and what the US alleges. That I think they've actually, behind the scenes, they've got a lot of stuff that they're willing to give on, and they know it's not going to make an impact, or it's going to make a minor impact. Losing a little control, losing a little power is not necessarily something that ever shows up on a balance sheet losing a little money does and they're it's going to hurt because apple is a public company and and they might make a little less money and that there are people at apple

who have a very strong incentive to prevent that from happening but i as an outside observer can say even that doesn't really matter if the spigot's still on, it's just flowing a little bit less, and it means you are a little less enormously profitable and a little less enormously valuable. I have a hard time envisioning scenarios. Doesn't mean they can't happen, but the most likely scenario is that Apple gives up a little power, gives up a little control, but not as much as you think, and gives up a little power gives up a little control but not as much as you think and gives up a little bit of revenue in in competing with others uh and it doesn't really matter and that they just continue steaming forward because they're so huge and so profitable that in the end it doesn't matter and i you know if i had to predict that's my prediction is that

is that this is not going to be the thing that stops Apple. Now, something else might stop Apple. The lesson of the Microsoft case is that it turns out that it was all kind of a waste of time in some ways because the next generation of stuff kind of rendered it irrelevant. We can argue that point. Were they distracted? Is that why they missed on mobile? Opening up the web allowed cross-platform to be better and it wouldn't have happened if IE was unconstrained. Okay, we can argue it. But my bigger point remains, which is what Apple's afraid of and Google and every other tech giant is missing the boat on the next big thing. That's the existential risk for Apple, I think, is not being regulated. I think

they're going to still have lots of money, right? I think it's, like I said, if AI, it turns out, makes devices essentially irrelevant and apps and operating systems irrelevant because everything's going to be running on machine learning and we're just going to talk or tap or whatever to a model that's going to do what we want, that that could potentially eliminate a huge amount of Apple's uniqueness in the market and therefore destroy their business model. That's a real existential threat. But I think it's unlikely that regulatory scrutiny is going to blow up Apple's business.

It could happen, but I don't think it will. But we'll be tracking it the whole way through. Sure. In lawyer up. Sure, exactly. Send us your anonymous secret. Nope, don't. You can if you like,

but we're not going to induce you to do it. Just be careful how you do it. And be careful. Don't use a company managed device, whatever you do. You can send us in that feedback or any questions you have for our various segments

over at upgradefeedback.com. You can check out Jason's writing at sixcolors.com. You can hear his podcast at theincomparable.com and here on RelayFM, where you can listen to me too and check out my work

at cortexbrand.com. If you want to find us on social media, Jason is at jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-E-L-L-I-M at I-M-I-K-I-M-Y-K-E You can watch video clips of this show on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube or at Upgrade Relay on there. Thank you to our members

who support us with Upgrade Plus. You can get longer ad-free versions of the show at GetUpgradePlus.com Thank you to our sponsors of this week's episode ExpressVPN, Ooni, and SaneBox. And thank you for listening. I'll be back next week. Jason will be on vacation

and I'll be having a guest host. Until the next time we speak to you, Jason, say goodbye. Bye, everybody. Looking forward to that eclipse. See youall in two weeks.