Upgrade - 507: Differently Social

Episode Date: April 8, 2024

from relay fm this is upgrade episode 507 for april 8th 2024 today's show is brought to you by delete me adblock pro fitbod and vitally my name is mike Hurley and I have the pleasure of being joined by Casey Liss. Welcome to the show, Casey Liss. My triumphant return. We're going to go with that. We're going to get to that in a little bit, but to start off, I have a Liss Talk question for you, and it comes from listener Justin. How many Apple Watch bands do you have and how often do you change them? So I'm going to bring some interesting energy to the show immediately and tell you, Mike,

that I saw that this was in the show notes document. And I thought to myself, Self, you need to go and look at how many Apple Watch bands you have so you can answer this question when it's time to record. And then Michaela has been sick for the last few days and everything has been upside down and topsy-turvy and so I neglected to go and actually count no this is good this is the the energy I expected from you I'm not sure if I should be offended or not but uh we're just gonna plow forward so um I off the top of my head so this is actually a very complicated question because I used to rock the larger size watch i believe it was a 42 millimeter if i'm not mistaken at the time uh you're the watch person so you tell me but i think at the time it was 42 millimeters and then when it did the switch from 42 to 44 something broke in my

brain and i somehow decided that was just impossibly too large for my for my little wrist and so um whatever year that was it was several years ago now, I switched and I came down to, what is it, 38 millimeters now? I think it used to be 36. Now it's 38, something along those lines. And so now Aaron and I are on the same size watch and thus we can share watch bands. And that means, although I accrued, I would guess between five and 10 watch bands over the course of my 42 millimeter time, I now had access to all of Aaron's watch bands. over the course of my 42 millimeter time i now had access to all veron's watch bands and i was you know since in the last couple years i've brought some of my own to the party ever you know on the occasions we get i get a new apple watch whatever the case may be

so i would guess all told that of the small size watch bands which is the ones that are relevant right now because i'm wearing a small size watch which is the 41 millimeter watch is it no is it yeah used to be 38 but now it's 41 wow i had that all wrong i'm thankful for that correction so thank you um so anyway so of the of those size bands i would guess we have 10 ish that are almost exclusively sport or sport adjacent bands you know we don't have like a well i did have a milanese a knockoff milanese milanese whatever it's called uh for the big one but like we don't have any of those for the small ones i think aaron has one with like a traditional clasp on it you know like the the the pokey through the the metal pokey bit like i'm not

talking the pin on the sport band you know what i'm talking about like the the rectangle and you have a little pokey but like on a belt is it an apple one or is it a third party no it's a knock okay we'll just call it a class we'll just call it okay there you go um but the only time i generally switch watch bands there's two times i switch watch bands the first time is i really like the completely featureless just band of silicone or whatever it is, silicone thing. What do they call that? Like the sport something or other, where there's no holes in it. Oh, so not the sport band.

You like just the fluoroelastomer solo loop. Yes. I don't know if you still call it. It's liquid silicone rubber. It's the fluoroelastomer was what the original ones were made of. Okay. So the solo loop, that's what I was thinking of. So I really like the solo loop, in my experience they last approximately three to six months before i somehow get a cut in them and then they immediately just give way and so you cut them like the like they

break when you they break i've had two or three and every single one of them is broken which is really a bummer i'm i'm not a fan of. Like, I don't like the idea of like, just pulling a piece of rock. Like, I don't, you know, like what they remind me of is when you go swimming and you have a locker key and it's on a little band

that you have to like put, and I don't like that experience. I get that. Yeah, I get that. Never dug those ones. Yeah, I like them, even though I'd like, I like on the traditional sport loop

which is what i typically wear i like being able to bring it one notch tighter when i'm actively working out because i've told myself that helps with like heart rate monitoring that may or may not be true that's just what i've told myself but in any case um so when i get a new watch i will inevitably go back to the solo loop and then six months later i will regret it and then i will return to my some flavor of deep isish blue Apple-branded sport. What is this traditional standard-issue sport band? Sport band? There you go.

Okay, so that's what I'm wearing right now. It's like a bluish sport band with the pin and the holes and whatnot in the smaller of the available sizes. of the available sizes. But when it's football season in the fall, and by that I mean American football, we have season tickets to Aaron's alma, my wife's alma mater, the University of Virginia. And so what I'll do is I'll typically take one half of this blue sport band and one half of an orange sport band, because that's their school colors is blue and orange. And I will mix them together if you will. So I'll have an orange and blue setup that i'll put on for that saturday and then i will take it off on sunday and go back to my traditional blue or occasionally i'll wear green that reminds me of do you remember when apple did the um the olympic watch bands and they

had like bands for every country they were weird and fun so very cool thank you for that extensive information sorry that we're already on a journey and one question i'm putting in the show notes an app called band bright which zach put in the discord which is like an an iphone app to track your band that's very clever uh we've been i think we spoke about this before i've mentioned before in the uk apple calls them straps, not bands. Oh, interesting. Because that's what we call it. We call it a watch strap, not a watch band.

But when you go to the Apple website, it says straps instead of bands. My current favorite Apple Watch band is one of the ultra ones. I think it's called the Trail band. I'm now going. So I now i'm also ill prepared so i like the i have i have the uh i haven't got the alpine loop it's the trail loop i also have the ocean band which i kind of like but the orange beige trail loop is my current favorite but they get a bit dirty right because it's like it's like it's like the um the sport loops uh not sport

the sport oh man i'm the yeah the sport loop it's like that it's that kind of like velcro-y uh feeling you know so they get a little bit dirty but i also love the magnetic link but the one's made of leather not the fine woven one when they announced the fine woven one. When they announced the fine woven, I bought one of the leather ones, another one, because I used one on my previous watch and kind of wore it out. I love it in blue. And now I have this other one.

Sometimes I change into that one if I want to dress up my Apple Watch. But it's difficult to dress up the Apple Watch Ultra, in my opinion. It was easier to dress up my gold stainless steel. I had the gold Milanese, which I still have, but don't have a watch that's really good to wear it with.

Right. I got that. And also a real-time follow-up. I forgot to mention, I have one of the original Pride, official Apple Pride bands. I think it's like a Velcro-y one. And I actually really like that one. I haven't had it on in a few months now, but I really like that one and occasionally switch to that one too. I forgot about that.

That's the Sport Loop band. Yes. It feels similar in construction to that one too. I forgot about that. That's the sport loop. Yes. And that's, it feels similar in construction to the trail loop. Thank you so much to Justin for sending in that question. If you would like to send in a question of your own

to help us open the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send it in. Casey, welcome back to the show. Well, thank you. I'm so pleased to be here. So Jason's away. He's looking at the sky today. So he's looking at the eclipse. You have any interest in the eclipse? I do, but Virginia is not terribly close to the

path of totality. And so I think it's starting as we're ending the show for me. Perfect. It's going to start as we're ending the show. Well, we'll see. Who knows how long the show's going to go, you know? Yeah, right. Well, given we went 10-ish minutes on Snell Talk slash List Talk, this may be a four-hour adventure. But nevertheless, it should be starting sometime around, I think, two or three in the afternoon,

my time. And it's currently shortly afternoon as we record. So we'll see what happens. But yeah, I mean, I'm interested in it, but it's not, if I see it great, if I don't, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna weep about it, but I wasn't about to go out of my way to do it. Uh, probably because I've just been very busy recently and couldn't handle trying to put all that effort together. But, uh, but no, I mean, it's certainly fun. We had one go through Virginia and I think it was either a total eclipse or darn near one, several years ago now.

It was probably six, seven years ago, and that was really cool. And I prepared a pinhole viewing thing out of an old Tom Binn box, and that was neat. But this time, I've done absolutely nothing to prepare, other than tell the kids, don't look at the sun. Perfect. That's probably the most important thing, to be honest. Indeed. Don't look at the sun, kids. Use that as just like a general rule.

Since you were on the show last time, you have released your fabulously popular application, CallSheet. Can you give the elevator pitch for CallSheet? Yeah, so CallSheet, if you're not familiar, is an app that lets you look up cast and crew information and information about TV shows and movies and things like that. And it does it super fast and it's pretty well designed. If I may be so bold as to say so, you can get a lot of information very quickly and it tries to do well with

respecting its users. So there's no pop-ups, there's no advertising. It is a subscription app, although you get 20 searches for free. There's features for preventing spoilers. So the canonical example for this, no spoilers, is that I was watching the incredible HBO miniseries Watchmen several years ago. And one of the characters in that show, I will not specify which, they have dual roles, like they have a secret identity, right? And I looked at the internet movie database, IMDb, to see information about these different actors and actresses and whatnot. And I saw, you know, oh, Joe Smith

is character A slash character B. And I didn't know about the secret identity yet. And I was very, years later, I'm very upset by this. And so one of the things that Call Sheet allows you to do for TV shows anyway, is that you can say, well, I don't want to see character names or I don't want to see how many episodes they're in in case, you know, this character is killed off after three episodes or what have you. I don't want to see the thumbnails for the episodes and things like that. And the other nice thing about it is for things like TV episodes and movies where there's a concrete and discrete release date in the list of the cast and the crew and whatnot, it'll actually show, okay,

well this person was 38 years old when this was released. This person was 43 years old. And maybe that sounds a little silly, but for me, I always am curious as to, you know, how old actors and actresses and crew are. So yeah,

it was good. I was just doing the thing, which I'll be able to tell people about in a couple of weeks. And I was, it was helpful for me to be able to see the about in a couple of weeks and i was it was helpful for me to be able to see the people in this movie uh because like just to see how old they were like i actually found that useful because the movie was was on the older side so that was pretty cool uh call sheet is available wherever you have your apple platforms right so it's on the iphone ipad mac and even on vision

pro as well which i think is a nice addition if you have a Vision Pro and you're watching movies. And of course, there'll be a link in the show notes, so people should go check it out. It's one of my favorite apps of the last couple of years, and not just because Casey's my friend. It's just a genuinely very good application that I use every couple of days, at least, to look something up. So it's fantastic. Good work. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. We have some follow-up. Now, you weren't on last week's episode, but I think you'll understand the follow-up anyway. So we were talking about leaks.

So we had the Andrew Awade leak story, and an anonymous person wrote in to say, I just wanted to say that I worked for Apple in their hardware division for close to eight years, and I was reached out to by at least five reporters in that time, and I know a bunch of folks who have the same experience. I'd like to point out that in my anecdotal experience, reporters reaching out is far more common than the other way around. Not a surprise to me. No, definitely not. Well, it's not a surprise that it's flowing that direction, and yet at the same time, I kind of wonder like what is the reporters play here like just

cruising LinkedIn and trying to find people who list their employers Apple and just cold calling them or whatever. Well you want sources right? I guess I don't know I don't have the gumption to do that. Well think about it right if you're at Mark Gurman now it's all good like you know what I mean he's getting people coming to him all the time but if you're

starting up or you're like lower in the rank maybe Mark Gurman 10 years ago, how did those connections get built? Wasn't there some sort of story? I might be making this up, but I thought there was a story that one of his initial sources was like his girlfriend or like his girlfriend's brother or something like that years ago. I don't know if that's true or not. You are half remembering a story that I'm not sure if it was a story that was public or it was a story

that was just has been shared around over the years but i'm pretty sure i've heard it on podcast too and i think i've even mentioned it that a source of his was a sibling of someone who worked at apple and that person got fired i see okay that That is the story as I know it, but it could be his say. I think that's what you're remembering. Yeah, I think you're right. And either way, I mean, your point is completely fair that somehow, some way you need to build up this clientele is not the right word for it, but you know, this list of sources. And I guess cold calling might work.

I guess if you happen to hit that disgruntled employee at the right moment, but I don't know, I'm surprised it works enough that people actually execute on it. Maybe it doesn't work though. That's fair. It's a thing that people try. It doesn't mean it's going to work. I think that people that are likely to want to share this kind of stuff, they're probably actively attempting to do that rather than getting that email and being like, oh yeah, now's the time to spill the beans. We've been talking a lot about immersive video.

Apple has announced that a new episode of the Pre-Astonic Planet immersive video series for Vision Pro will be released on April 19th. So the slow drip feed continues. Imagine my surprise as I was preparing for the show and I looked in the show notes and I saw that there's a new episode coming and I said, there is? Yeah, well, you've got 11 days to prepare. Of all of the immersive video, this is actually an episode that I couldn't finish. I want to go back to it. But the initial shots of this, it's kind of like drone footage going towards an island

and it's like movement. It's there to make me feel, I think, a little bit motion sick, which I'd never experienced before. And so I bailed out of that. But I do want to go back and watch it. So maybe I'll check it out another time. But you shared something with me, which is kind of a immersive video. It's not from Apple, although I think Apple was quite heavily involved in this.

I think just judging by the way some of the things look in the video and some of the products used in the video. But there is a Gucci app, which features in the Vision Pro version, an interactive video documentary about Gucci's new creative director, Sabato Disano. And it shows his first fashion show, which I think was in the end of last year, beginning of this year, I think.

It's basically a 20-30 minute video showing his first fashion show. But as you're watching the video in a video window, things are breaking out and taking over an immersive space around you or being in your environment it's really cool and you can pause the video at certain points and look at the products and look at his sketches of the collection that he put together this is the kind of stuff that like these little things come out and you're like oh there you go like that that's that's something right like that that's what that's one of the reasons to have this thing. Like it's, it's experiences like this one.

It's very cool. Where did you find it? So this was emailed to the ATP feedback by Jason F. And they had said like, this is incredible. I can't believe nobody's talking about it. I had never even heard of it. Well,

it's just in the Gucci app. You know what I mean? So like, yeah, not, not really a thing that me and you are checking frequently exactly so one way or another i only had the chance to watch the first five maybe 10 minutes so far and i do plan to watch the rest because it's really worth i went into this it's absolutely worth it it's also just a well-made documentary like it's just a well-made little documentary. It is absolutely worth your time. And so like a couple of quick examples

from the first five minutes, there's at one point where they're talking about like train tracks. I forget the context, but there was some sort of like train or maybe they were doing a photo shoot at a train or tram or whatever. And so you're like Mike had said,

you know, imagine a rectangle where you're watching this video. And then suddenly there's like train or tram or whatever tracks extending out, not from the inside of the, of the rectangle, like above or behind the rectangle. It's like the background suddenly becomes train tracks or tram or what have you. And then this tram car just comes in like a 3d tram car. This is totally outside of your rectangular viewing window. It just comes in from the side of

your available you know visual space and just kind of parks for a second and chills and then there was another part where they were talking about that the fashion show was going to be in this like era i forget what city it was it doesn't really matter it's an italian city oh it wasn't milan okay thank you so in milan there's this small corner of milan there's like this cobblestone area and it leads up to a church. And so you're looking at this in a standard, you know, rectangular viewport. And then all of a sudden,

the stuff that's going on behind the viewport instead of your desk or your living room or wherever you're watching this, it becomes a 3D rendering of that like street corner, if you will.

And so you see the church right there in front of you. And it's not subtle. Subtle isn't the word I'm looking for of you and it's it's not subtle subtle isn't the word i'm looking for but it's it's immersive it's very it's very immersive and it's not immersive in the sense like the apple demo stuff is which i love i'm not trying to you know throw shade on the apple demo stuff but that the entire experience is immersive and you can look around and see different things and whatnot it's It's how do you take a regular video and complement it with VR elements?

That's what they've done. Where the video is just the video. It's not altered by the fact that you're wearing it in the Vision Pro, but the environment around the video screen is enhanced. This is the kind of stuff where you see it and it's like, these are the things that can be done like these are the things that somebody you see these little breadcrumbs and

like you understand how early we are in it like i gotta say i'm i find it frustrating that people are uh saying that the vision pro is dead like yeah agreed it's too soon it's way too soon and i i think that we need these are the types of experiences that will exist and we're going to talk about another one later on in the episode where they become these little green shoots that can become something bigger in a few years time, which I, in my opinion was the whole point of this in the first place. Uh, and we're getting there. And like,

to me, this was another example of this of like, Oh, this isn't an immersive video. It's not a regular video. I'm not watching this video inside of a movie theater environment. I'm watching this video. And then all of a sudden I'm being delighted and surprised by these things

that are popping up. And then for something like a Gucci runway show, the fact that I can look at AR versions of the products and move them around, make them bigger and smaller and take a look at the bags and the shoes and the jewelry, that's

fantastic for Gucci, right? Because now I can experience that and be like, oh, that fashion show was beautiful. These clothes were amazing. Let me look at this bag. If you have a Vision Pro, take the 20 minutes and watch this. It's also just one of those things, which I love, of a story of a creative person and how they overcome challenges to produce something. It's really cool. Yeah. Again, I only saw the first five, maybe 10 minutes and it was 100% worth your time. And like Mike was saying, I like that it's kind of like two and a half D in that the video is the video. It's a regular 2d video. Mike has said it a couple of times. I'll reiterate that, but everything is happening around it. It's like, you know, salt Bay just sprinkled a little like 3d on top of a regular or immersion, I guess is a better way to put it on top of a regular 2d video. It's very, very clever and very, very well done.

And I could not care less about fashion. It is not my thing. Do not care. And I was riveted in the five or 10 minutes I was watching this. It is definitely worth your time. This episode is brought to you by our friends over at Delete Me.

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That is j-o-i-n-d-e-l-e-t-e-m-e dot com join deleteme dot com slash upgrade20 and the code upgrade20. A thanks to Delete Me for their support of this show and RelayFM. It's time for everybody's favorite segment. It is DMA Today! Are you excited to be a part of dma today today casey i am overjoyed to be a part of dma today today today will be a great day to do dma today the verge has published a first look at alt store which is

planning to be one of the first alternative app marketplaces in europe it's a really good piece um i have a couple of tidbits that I wanted to pull out of this article, but I recommend reading it. So one, with AltStore, apps can monetize via Patreon and offer the app as a perk, and you can link the two together. Two things that are interesting about this.

One, there are other ways to pay for things. One of them is Patreon. But also, with Patreon, if you tie the app to a pledge, you can limit the amount of people that can claim that pledge. So therefore...

Oh, yes, I see. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. You as the developer could get out of the core technology fee. However, the alternative app marketplaces, how they're going to pay for their core technology fee, like that is different apps are doing it in different ways

because if you're an app marketplace, you have to pay the core technology fee no matter what. Some are passing that on in the form of a subscription to the developers. Alt Store, as a publishing article, haven't announced how that's being done. But you as the developer still don't have to pay it until you hit that million threshold

where you could set the tier there and then maybe have a more expensive tier for the one after that if you hit that, right? So it gives you that flexibility in your business and the sense that the app couldn't just explode overnight because you're able to cap it. So that's cool. Apps in Alt Storeore as well do

things that other iOS apps cannot do. For example, there is an app that is shown off called Clip, which is a clipboard manager. Clip stays awake in the background using the MapKit APIs. So this is something that App Store apps can't do because you can't use the map kit api for this apple will reject you so and what happens is if you copy a piece of if you like select some text and press copy you get a push notification immediately it's like hey do you want to save that and you can just interact with a notification and save so it's like a true clipboard manager with a little bit of a weird walk around but the fun thing about this is the MapKit solution was the solution that Notorization approved after some back and forth.

No, but like, so it's existing, right? This is a feature an App Store app would be rejected for, but it's in Alt Store having gone through Notorization. Like the original method, whatever it was, for staying awake

in the background, Apple said you can't do that via notarization because it was a misuse of an API, but they allowed the map get used. Interesting times. Of course, the Delta emulator for Nintendo games, old Nintendo systems, is in

Alt Store. That's the Rally Tester who created Delta also created and is running AltStore. So obviously that would be in there. Do you have anything that you'd like to mention about AltStore before I move on to the other emulator piece of news? Just briefly, I don't run emulation software often, but on occasion, I'll have a reason to bust out an old video game from my childhood. And I cannot tell you how delightful it is to use like open EMU on the Mac and run Mega Man 2, which Declan was, I don't remember.

Oh no, Declan was playing Smash Brothers. That's what it was. My nine-year-old son was playing Smash Brothers and was asking about who Mega Man was. And I was like, oh buddy, buckle up so we can talk about this. And so we ran upstairs to my Mac and I opened up Mega Man 2, which I spent just hours upon when I was roughly his age. Just hours and hours and hours on Mega Man 2. And being able to run old software in an emulator like that is so delightful, particularly when you have a controller. Like I have the 8BitDo, 8BitDo, 8-bit Do, I forget how you pronounce it. Anyways, the one,

the SN30 Pro that looks like a Super Nintendo controller. And I have that and I hooked it up to my Mac and it was delightful. Even though this is an NES game, still having a Super Nintendo controller was great. It is so much better than using a keyboard. And being able to do that on my phone or even perhaps more so my ipad which although i guess the alternative stores are not coming to ipad is that right well i mean they're also not coming to you well yeah fair yeah that's that's a very good point but in principle uh just i mean being able to hook a controller up to my phone you know because delta allows us to take that jump that's one of the things that delta would allow you to do and being able to play like an old nes or super

nintendo game on my phone like I don't think I would have the occasion to do it often, but being able to do it would be super cool. And this hardware is so good. Like why wouldn't you want to at least be able to do that if you so desire? It would be very fun. Great news for you, Casey List, because it might not just be Delta as the way to do this. So Apple has published yet another update to the App Store guidelines. One of them being that Apple now allows for emulators for

quote, retro game consoles in the App Store, noting that quote, you are responsible for all such software offered in your app including ensuring that such software complies with these guidelines and all applicable laws. This is a worldwide immediate change that allows for emulators.

Yeah. So in theory, I mean, I haven't seen Riley talk about this yet, but in theory, I don't see any reason why you couldn't have Delta on the regular traditional worldwide app store right or am i missing something yeah in in theory unless riley is doing things with delta that would otherwise be outside of what's allowed right so like he may be as you can see using apis that might not otherwise be available to a developer but in theory now we will start to see emulators appear on the app store um and there's going to be a lot of them and i'm really interested to see how this works because if you say this is an emulator for the Nintendo Game Boy,

will Apple allow that? Like, you're not providing the ROMs. So, like, I'm really keen to see how this is going to go because, like, what is a retro game console? Like, that's not defined. Yeah. Is the Nintendo Switch retro?

Depends on who you ask. Is the 3DS retro? Depends on who you ask. Is the 3DS retro? Like, how far back are we going? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And who's deciding the intellectual property law of this? Fascinating. But I look forward to playing Pokemon, I guess, or something. Like, having the opportunity to play Pokemon on my iphone this is incredible and i

think you're right that the the ownership side of the software is where this will get very very interesting both in the good and not so good ways so to back up you made mention a minute ago of so the way this works for emulators is they typically do not provide any games to play they the emulator is the software that allows you to play a game, but you need to bring the game yourself. And so you need to take a game cartridge and use a piece of hardware to download all of the bits on that game cartridge. And that's the ROM, the read-only memory from the cartridge. And then you put that in a file and you upload that file to your computer or to your phone or what have you, and then you can play the game. I have a thing for the Game Boy that can do this.

Exactly. And as with all things, you know, there are alternative approaches, which we do not condone here at Upgrade. But nevertheless, that's the question is like, you know, what is Apple going to allow for this? You know, how is a how is Riley at Delta supposed to verify effectively that you have the cartridge for the rom that you're providing is that riley's responsibility you know apple don't care not don't care but like they're they're just going to be like well it's your responsibility so basically yeah no i mean basically what this is is like they've just like i think i've seen a lot of people say this i think it's true it's like i guess maybe they're fearful of the competition here or something like i i guess right so like they figure that something like delta is enough for people in europe to want

to install alt store oh heck yeah put it on the app allow these on the app store and then people will get them from the app store but it's for me i see this as a you know they wrote it in there it's in the yo you said that you will comply with laws so when nintendo comes to us we're just going to send them directly to you like that's the way this is going to go so it's going to be fascinating to see how this plays out i have yet to find an emulator in the app store it is a bit soon um but i am really keen to see who's first and how does this shake out a part of me is surprised that somebody like riley who granted is very busy right now but somebody wasn't waiting on the wings like ready to submit to there's no way anybody thought this was gonna happen well but that's the exactly what

i was gonna say is that on the one side like how could you not be ready for this but on the other side you know there are there are hotter places in the world that would have frozen over before i would have expected this to happen right like i didn't think in a million years this would happen and i i think this is absolutely indication that what the eu is doing it looks like it's working because i think you're right i think at least some of this is trying to get ahead of AltStore and trying to make sure that Apple's users don't have any particular justification for looking outside the App Store. And hey, turns out it sounds like a lot of people would love to run old games on their phones. So maybe we should allow for that. Imagine that, Apple. What a just fascinating concept fascinating it is a hard thing to allow though like it is a

it's not even really a legal gray area in some instances like it's a legal gray area many but in some it's just like no you just this is bad because like where did i draw the line like we just had all this stuff with uh nintendo killing the yuzu emulator which was for the switch which i think is a bit aggressive uh and i i'm not surprised and i don't really personally i don't really have a problem with nintendo going after that one but when you go back to something like the game boy it's like all right like you know you're not gonna lose out on money here like make the games available like you can do your thing so i don't know uh they also made a

change in europe that music streaming services can have a buy button to sign up for the service it takes you to a web page to learn more and sign up what a novel concept what imagine that imagine just in europe this one though because we all know that non-europeans cannot deal with buy buttons in their applications yep we are too are too stupid, Mike. We cannot handle it. I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful that I am not lost when I'm using the Spotify app. It's just, I don't want to go off. I don't want to pop off like I've been doing so often on ATP about how ridiculous and entitled

Apple is. And so I will just say that I am glad that there's at least some amount of forward progress, even if it seems to be by way of the prod rather than, you know, the cattle prod rather than the carrot, if you will. I think I'm mixing metaphors here. But it turns out, like I said a minute ago, it looks like this has worked. Like the system is working. They are forcing Apple to make changes that they wouldn't

or didn't appear to be willing to make otherwise. And you know what? I am here for it. It's time for a rumor roundup. Yeehaw. 9to5Mac has found evidence in iPadOS 17.5 in the beta that the next Apple Pencil may feature a squeeze gesture. This is a quote from 9to5Mac. The gesture can be used for quick interactions, such as adding shapes, signatures, stickers, or a text field, presumably the gesture will be triggered by pressing the Apple Pencil surface. That's very interesting.

I don't know how I would feel about a squeeze gesture. I'm sure once I tried it, I'd be like, oh, yes, of course. Well, you have AirPods Pro, right? Yes, yes. What's that? Oh, yeah, I guess that's a fair point. But I just use that for play. I mean, what would I, I don't know.

Well, I mean, you're not drawing with your AirPods. But you could imagine there'd be an application and you'd set it. And it's like some, I don't know, some frequent thing that you're doing inside of said application. Like it could be undo, improcrate or change into, you know,

between two tools or something like that. I would prefer button, a button and squeezing, but we'll see. And we may be seeing soon because Mark, well, not as soon as we thought though. Mark Gurman is reporting now that the new iPads are due to be announced on May 6th, which is a month away from now, which is kind of funny because we've been expecting these new iPads

for at least a month. I think you mean at least a year. Well, I mean, we've wanted them for that amount of time. Sure. Yeah, it's just like a funny scenario that we've wanted them for that amount of time sure yeah it's just like a funny scenario that we've ended up in where we were all convinced that these ipods were coming out in early march and they're actually now looking like they will arrive in early may yeah and i thought i'd read somewhere i don't know if we'll be able to put a link in the show notes or not but i feel like i read somewhere that they were having really bad yield problems with the oled displays or something along those lines since that might have something to do with it marcus also said

that there are software issues so it's a bit it's a kind of six of one half thousand of the other with this stuff but yes this is coming out later than expected but you know as people say kc it's not delayed if they haven't announced it that's true that is true mark gorman is also reporting that apple is now exploring home robotics now that the car project is over in the search for the next big thing this is what they're going to start pursuing i'm going to read some quotes this is this piece is just like full of interesting quotes so i'm just going to read them out we can talk about it engineers at Apple have been exploring a mobile robot that can follow users around their homes. The original concept for the robot was the device

that could navigate entirely on its own without human intervention and serve as a video conferencing tool. One pie-in-the-sky idea was having it to be able to handle chores like cleaning dishes in a sink. But that would require overcoming extraordinarily difficult engineering challenges, something that would require overcoming extraordinarily difficult engineering challenges, something that's unlikely this decade. Apple has developed an advanced tabletop home device that uses robotics to move a display around. This idea was to have the display mimic the head movements of a call, such as nodding of a person on a FaceTime session. It would also

have features to precisely lock onto a single person among a crowd during a video call. The robotics work is happening within Apple's hardware engineering division, and its AI and machine learning group, run by John Gianandrea, Matt Costello, and Brian Lynch, two executives focused on home products, have overseen the hardware development. This is interesting. On the the surface it makes sense kind of because you know in this world with the car you need to have incredible spatial awareness and in a house you would also need some good spatial awareness but it is a pretty big leap from one to the other i'm not sure they're really related and just in the sense of like they were working

on a car now they've given up on that and now they're working on something else. Fair. And the other thing is like, what would I want a house robot to do by following me around? Like the only thing I can think of is remember, and I think you used one of these at UL once. I thought it was you that was there. We had a call using one. That's what I'm talking about. I forget the term.

Telepresence robot. There you go. That's the generic term. them that's what i'm talking about i forget the term the telepresence robot there you go that's the that's the generic uh the generic term but yeah it's these robots you could you know wander around a office building or what have you and they basically have like an ipad or equivalent on on the at about eye level actually and so you could sort of kind of carry on a conversation with a co-worker even though the co-worker is hundreds of miles away or whatever and that was neat and i saw a handful of offices

try it and it seemed like none of them stuck with it. And I don't know if that's because the thing was never charged or because it was too difficult to use or latency was too bad or whatever, but I don't, I can't think of any reason why I would want a robot following me around the house. You know, it's not like that. And I've just talked about this in ATP and I forget the name of it, but there's those robots that will follow you around in a city and they're like a backpack, but you don't have to carry it. It's just this little like Segway style thing that's following a meter or two behind you. And that in principle actually sounds pretty appealing, but that's when you're out of the house and it's also like $7,000 or something like that. So look, you know, think about what they're saying would be the pie

in the sky. Wouldn't you love something to do house chores for you? I mean, I suppose, yeah. Imagine a Roomba, but that can do everything. Right? This is too big of a thing to even consider, which I think they're getting at, right? Exactly. This is a... And I think people can take some of these reports

as being like a gospel thing, but no. There was an idea that somebody had of like, the real goal for a project like this is create a multi-purpose home robot but they know they're not going to be able to do that for a very long time if ever yeah but inside of this piece is the real thing that they seem to be working on i hope they're working on which is a tabletop home device that can move a display around. Like this is the advanced Echo Show-like device from Apple, the HomePod with a screen, which apparently this product is, quote, much further along,

but there is disagreement inside of the company of whether it's something people would want. Something I would want is that we have an Echo Show in the house and I don't like it, but my wife does. But it's nice to have a screen in the house where it's showing photos from a photo library, but we can also talk to it. You can, you know, when you're cooking,

you can see the timers on it. You can interact with, like Amazon's made a great business of this. I would love Apple to do one of these. And if it could do things like I could have a FaceTime call with someone and it will follow me around and all that kind of stuff.

It sounds fantastic. But I also would love Apple to build me a robot that could do all of my chores. But I genuinely, I'm not sure if we'll see that in my lifetime. Yeah, agreed. And with regard to the Echo Show style thing, that's not something I feel like I want in my life. But let me hedge by saying I've never had an echo show or anything equivalent. So it may be one of those things that once I had it in my life, I'd go, Oh yes, of course. Um, but you know, the, the closest I can think of is having a larger screen for FaceTime purposes.

And just, uh, recently we FaceTimed with my mom and dad when they were at their house and, you know, we were at ours of course. And I just stuck my phone on the mantle below the TV and it was fine. Like it really wasn't bad. The audio allegedly on their end wasn't bad because that's the thing I worry about. Our family room is very, very wide and not very deep. So we're physically relatively close to the TV, which helps a lot for the purposes of audio. But when you do a FaceTime call with an Apple TV, the audio is the camera microphone on your phone, right? And so sometimes in a room that's deeper and not as wide, you can sound like you're 400 miles away from the microphone because you kind of are. Luckily, our house is laid out in such a way that that's not really

a problem. But that sort of thing is where I feel like we are missing something in our, you know, the list family is missing something is having the ability to do a group FaceTime call on a big screen. And what with continuity camera in the Apple TV support and more recent versions of the Apple TV OS, then that seems to be fixed for us. So I don't personally have a need for this, but again, I can't stress enough that it might be one of those things

that I get it in the house. And I'm like, oh yes, of course. How did I live without this? This episode is brought to you by Adblock Pro. Adblock Pro gives you a smoother Safari experience. I live without this. decluttered, a more delightful browsing experience. Are you constantly bombarded with allow cookie pop-ups? You can effortlessly dismiss them without BlockPro. It just gets rid of them for you. You can mute comment sections on websites that you don't want to see. You can selectively block page elements with a simple tap. And unlike some other services, AdblockPro is coming and it's dead. Well, VisionPro natively, day one. So you can get it right there.

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store, search Ad adblock pro and transform your safari experience today that's adblock pro in the app store a thanks to adblock pro for their support of this show and relay fm so a couple of days ago uh i incessantly bullied you into getting onto a facetime call with me that is both accurate and inaccurate but it is probably more accurate than i care to admit to myself yes because uh spatial personas have launched so this is an an advanced persona feature for facetime calls with the vision pro so previously you would have a call with somebody and they would be trapped inside of a little box but at wwdc when they showed off the Pro initially, they gave a tease for the next evolution of personas,

where people would be essentially like floating heads and hands inside of your space with you. But Apple touted at the time that it was a much more immersive experience. Now, you were going to be my co-host on the show today. I wanted to talk about it. And I wanted you to come on to the show having had this experience. And I wanted you to have this experience with me. And so by this point, I had had a call with a couple of friends solo and then also a group hangout session. This was your first experience with spatial personas. What did you think? experienced the spatial personas, what did you think? So the thing with the Vision Pro is that there's so much potential there, and it's so obvious that the technology is just phenomenal. It's big, it's clunky, it's heavy, but it's still, it's there.

It's there much more so than you would expect. But it's hard to convince yourself of that sometimes, even as someone who can spend as much time as I want with the Vision Pro, because there's so few examples of it being there. And the immersive video we were talking about earlier is a great example. This Gucci thing, as silly as it may sound, I think that's an example. And I've done a FaceTime call or two with the Vision Pro previously, and it was fine. And after five or 10 minutes, you can kind of get over the fact that you're looking at a cartoon version of your friend or whatever, but it was fine. The special personas are a whole different thing. And it is a great example of what makes the vision pro so freaking cool. And what makes you feel like, yep, we're there.

This is it. It's not the future. It's not the future in the future. It's the future today. This is it. It's not the future. It's not the future in the future. It's the future today. And it was bananas. It's incredible. I did this in my office in the same room I'm sitting in right now. I did this without any AirPods in or anything like that. I was just using the audio pods, whatever they call the thing, you know, the stems on the vision pro and the, the way that it felt like you were around me was phenomenal. Because if you were off to my left, you sounded like and looked like you were off to my left. If you're off to my right, you sounded like and looked like you were off to my right. And what really blew my mind, which is funny because I think at this point I had heard connected, if I'm not mistaken.

And so I was aware of most of these things. And so I knew what to expect. And yet, I guess we were adjacent to each other. I forget exactly what the scenario was. One way or another, I was looking at you, even if I don't remember if I was looking at you head on or if you were off to my side, but one way or another, you said, okay, I'm going to stand up now. And sure enough, when you stood up, your head went from eye level to a couple of feet above

me, which is what would happen if we were sitting next to each other yeah and also it creates a shared physical space so i can walk around you yeah yeah i mean your space and i'm moving around so like and there are things that you can do which are wild like you can have somebody follow your finger with their eyes and you can watch them do that like the latency and the realness of this is it's honestly like a technological marvel here's the thing if you've seen pictures of this and i'll put links in the show notes to jason's article about this and steven's article about this which has a bunch of pictures of these calls that i was on too they look ridiculous right it is a floating head floating hands.

It looks ridiculous, but it doesn't feel like that when you're in it. There is something about just the head and the hands and the shoulders, but when they're moving and they're talking and you can see someone memoting, it is just the amount that you need for your brain to be tricked

that you're in the room with the person. It's like just enough. And you've heard of these kinds of things before, like the bare minimum that your brain needs to be able to make these kinds of jumps like these leaps this 100 does it it's the most immersive vr call i've ever experienced and i've tried a bunch of these things because not only does it work really well i'm looking at the person i'm talking to and it looks like them, a lot like them, because the new personas got even better. Truly, it looks weird.

Trust me, I know it looks weird. But if you experience it, it is like, it's unbelievably good. Like, it's unbelievably good. And it pulls in so many different technologies. Spatial audio is key as casey was talking about if i stand up i'm high at my you know i'm he can here i'm above him if i move around him he can experience that share play you can share windows content all this kind of stuff together like i did this with you we shared a freeform board i could get up and walk towards the board and point to things on the board,

like a presentation. Obviously you could do keynote and stuff in this. And then there were also like, I think the best way to experience this. Well, actually before you jump to that though, hold on the, the,

the, the free form thing blew my mind because again, I had heard connected. I knew what to expect, but yet you shared a free form board, potentially even the same when you shared with them. I knew what to expect, but yet you shared a free form board, potentially even the same when you shared with them and you, and we, what we went from looking at each other sitting, you know, one facing the other to now we are adjacent to each other, one on either side of

the board, which is what you would expect to happen if you were in a space with a whiteboard, right? And you can, like you just said, you can point to something and I can point to something and we can tell what the other is doing. i know mike just said that but i really need to hammer that home because it you would expect there to be like inaccuracies or horrible latency or something but no no it was spot on i forget exactly what was on the board but you know i was i said something like okay point to the red rectangle and sure enough you pointed to it and you know i said okay what am i pointing at and you said oh you're pointing to the the red rectangle and sure enough, you pointed to it. And, you know, I said, okay, what am I pointing at? And you said, oh, you're pointing to the same red rectangle, the other side of it. Yep. Yes, I am. Like it was, it's so silly to be so impressed by this. If you think

about it, like, and if you look at these pictures, like Mike had been saying, it's like, okay, this looks super weird. Why are you so excited? No, I can't even begin to describe. It is just stupefying the difference that all of this makes, especially in aggregate. It's clear that Mike wasn't physically standing next to me. That's obviously not the case, but it tickled all of the same kinds of emotions. You know what I mean? It felt effectively like you were, and it was almost as satisfying as us having a brainstorming session. I mean, even though it was all contrived, but it was almost as satisfying as us having a brainstorming session. I mean, even though it was all contrived, but it was almost as satisfying as us having a brainstorming session

in a room together. And given that you're, what, like 3,000, 2,000 miles away from me, this is a lot easier and cheaper to do than meeting up somewhere to do it in person. Like last week, I felt like I was able to hang out with a bunch of my friends over these different calls. It was a very enriching experience for me because it was able to tickle a lot of those sensations that you get for having spent time with people

because you're talking to them you feel like you're in a place with them you very quickly ignore the weird part of it and accept it for what it is or think it's more than what it is you're able to look into the eyes of your friends as they're talking to you and like you're actually looking into their eyes and they're looking into your eyes the amount of work that must have gone into this i cannot fathom like i genuinely think like if you have a friend that has a Vision Pro and you've been on the fence or whatever, this is a reason to buy one if you want

to have these experiences together. So one of the things that we did was we played a game called Game Room, which I think is the perfect demo for this. Oh, it's phenomenal. I cannot stress enough, you must try this. They have a version of, they have a bunch of different games inside of Game Room. One of them is essentially battleship um and the two of us were able to play a game of

battleship it's a very well done application just in general like the animation is fantastic it's it's very well designed fast and fun but like you're able to play actual games together like i really really hope that more games do this it's all built on shareplay so it's just a shareplay game um i'm hoping that more of this kind of stuff exists because i i want to create like hangouts for friends like the the group call that i did it was basically just there was an active facetime calling kind of inside of a group chat so people were able to drop in and drop out because that's how facetime group chats work that's so there were at one point there was three of us then there was four of us then there was

five of us and you know people were dropping in and dropping out like yep yep so you could imagine like uh just a friend hangout session and you know you can hang out you can chat but having activities like shared activities to do and games being one of them like man this is what i was saying earlier on in the show like it is way too soon to be like oh this platform's dead it's not going anywhere like there's no developers for it obviously i was listening to atp last week and i would say the three of you to to an element were like you know talking about the death of the platform already and but it's not just you guys like i'm hearing it all over the place i'm seeing it on mastodon like it's too soon i would love to know how we would deal with the iPhone now.

That's interesting. Yeah, yeah. If the iPhone was now, what would we be saying? Like, we're in the first year of the iPhone and there's no apps for it, right? Like, what would the conversations be like? I just think that, like, if you see things like this like this spatial persona stuff to say that they are not putting effort into this platform like i can't even imagine how hard this was to build like this is clearly what they wanted to launch with right but couldn't get it ready in time because there's no reason that you would do the first version of this

right like if you had the second version ready like it was very clear now that this first version is just the they did it until they could stop to finish yeah a stop gap and like it's it's truly mind-blowing it's i hate to use this word but it's true it's a transformative experience of using technology like this because you know i'm hearing time and time and time again from you and from everybody else like the vision pro is a uh anti-social product right like you can't use it with people around you and i'm not saying that this changes that but it makes it social in a different way yeah i was just about to say it's differently social it's different exactly right in the same way that, I mean, your iPhone and your iPad is an antisocial device too.

But we say it's a social device because you can talk to your friends who are across the ocean, right? So like, oh, it's additive to my life because I'm connected to people. This is an even stronger connection. So it's just, you know, like I've heard, I was listening to ATP this morning, so it's just you know like i i've heard i was listening to atp this morning so it's fresh in my mind and you were talking about the fact of how like you wouldn't sit on the couch next to erin um you know you would wear one of these and she's watching avatar on the tv and you're watching it yeah right right you also wouldn't watch avatar on your phone while she's watching it on the tv that's fair that is fair yeah people are i think a lot of time creating these scenarios

that sound ridiculous because they are ridiculous. You wouldn't do that. You also wouldn't have four people all wearing one in the same way that you wouldn't have four people all looking at an iPad. These devices will fit into our lives in different ways. For some people, they won't fit into their lives at all. And that's totally fine. for some people they won't fit into their lives at all and that's totally fine right there's going to be a balance here for what this kind of technology can provide and what it can't but this is like oh here's here's the thing you can't do the only way you can do this is a vision

pro you cannot have this experience with any other apple product because a FaceTime, that ain't it, son. This is so much better than a FaceTime call. So much better than a FaceTime call for so many reasons. As long as your mouth moves, of course. Mine does. Well, that was very off-putting because it's still quite fixed.

They'll get there, I'm sure. Look, if they can work this out, they can get the mouth movement issue with mustaches fixed. The only obvious answer is you just need to trim your beard and mustache back a lot. That's the one true way. I'm not doing that for, like, you know what I mean? If that's their answer, then I'll say the platform is dead.

You know what I mean? Yeah. No, your criticisms of ATPp i think are fair and it's funny what a difference just a few days makes because i i to a degree i stand by what i was saying on atp and i would think of the three of us i was far and away the most positive but i was still kind of poo-pooing the whole thing and it's funny because at the time i was thinking all right well they haven't come up apple hasn't come out with any of the new immersive videos yet i didn't realize that the um the dinosaur thing was forthcoming. Yeah, but still, it's one episode.

It's not, like, that's still not good enough. Like, not even close. And the soccer thing, as has been talked about, Ad Nauseam was not great by any means. And I'm looking at this and I'm like, well, what's the point? Like, I still like it, but I think I said on the show,

were it not for professional obligations, I think I wouldn't have bought it and I don't think I would have missed it. Well, fast forward, what is this? Like five days later, six days later, and I've experienced a spatial personas in a, in FaceTime. I've experienced collaborating, not necessarily in a professional sense, but even like in a gaming sense, collaborating on something I've experienced as Gucci app, which is silly as it is really is mind blowing. Like it's such a clever way of approaching this, this, then that problem, but you know, this task of presenting a documentary in an interesting way, like in just in the past

less than a week, I feel like the stock of the vision pro has gone quite a bit up in my mind because I'm starting to be, to see new and interesting ways to use it. And this comes back to what you've been saying this entire episode, well, more than this episode, but especially this episode, it is too darn soon to throw this thing out. It is too darn soon to say it's dead platform walking because it isn't, we haven't had the time for people to really start flexing their muscles and being creative and seeing what they can do. And we're getting bits and pieces of it here and like i i am looking forward to having the time to put on the vision pro and doing the what is the name of the app game room the game

room app which i don't know if you said this out loud but it's in apple arcade so if you're an apple one or whatever it's called member uh you get this quote unquote for free i can't wait to try it again and i showed i recorded a little bit of video of the two of us playing and i showed the family and everyone was looking at this and even though they don't really know what like they've had the vision pro on but they they didn't experience playing the game and all of them were still like oh that's real cool you know like and of course declan my nine-year-old was like oh i want to try that as soon as i can and and he hasn't had the chance yet but you know it's it's so immediately captivating and another thing i don't think you mentioned this yet but another thing you did and i didn't even realize you could do this is you

can share your perspective oh yeah and so um i had seen many many many photos of mega office but i have never been to mega office i've never made a studio sorry thank you my apologies mega studio and so i'd never been there and that's why i didn't know the right name of it but anyway i i you know mike said to me it's at some point all right hold on a minute watch this and now i'm getting a 3d view of mega studio which was amazing and i mean again i've seen photos so i could i kind of had a layout in my mind of what it looked like but in the span of like you doing one 360 degree spin well now i know exactly what mega studio looks like you know what i mean and and similarly

like i mean my office is a disaster despite what hopefully it looks like on the video but you know i took you on a quick spin around my office which is not exciting at all but nevertheless at least now you get to have a mental model for where it is i'm sitting right now talking to you and like stuff like that is super cool and if memory memory serves, that was in 3D. Like it was immersed. Well, it wasn't immersive. I don't think it was in 3D. No, it's just like a video.

Is it not? Okay. You just get to see kind of like a video feed. I was so bowled over by it. It may as well have been 3D. You're probably right. It probably wasn't, but it felt like it at the time. And so it's incredibly, incredibly cool what they've done with with just

facetime broadly because this you know seeing what mike's seeing doesn't really have anything to do with spatial personas that's just i guess share play if nothing else but my goodness was it cool and it enables you to kind of have a presence somewhere else and you know 3d or 2d one way or another it it was so immersive in the figurative sense because I couldn't, you know, change where I was looking or anything because I'm just getting the view from Mike's headset. But it still felt so, you know, lowercase I immersive, if you will, that it felt like I was there. And it was unreal. Like this, this is phenomenal. And if you're in a position, like, let's say you were, you know, having to have a long distance relationship or something like that. Oh my God. I cannot fathom how amazing this would be. Are you kidding?

Like it would, it would, it would be this alone, just FaceTime spatial personas alone. If you have the money, 1000% worth the $7,000, you know, for each of you to get one, get the crappiest vision pro you can which is not still extremely expensive but like look here's the thing none of this is is is achievable right now but this is like you know like i mean like what we're talking about you know oh if you're in a long-distance relationship do you have seven thousand dollars to spend like it's that is ridiculous to say yeah but in four years time in five years time where i genuinely think that in five years time we will have like full bodies because they'll be able to just work out even if they can't scan it so you would have a full body in it or like much more of a body maybe

at least the top half right because they can just work it out i mean this is kind of what meta does right then they're looking at where your hands are and then assuming the way that the rest of your body moves it's all machine learning models at the end of the day but like if this thing is 1500 then you could each have one i mean yeah then then we're off to the races because it's the beginning now this product has been available for three months and look at the progress we've made in three months. Yeah. It's unreal.

The thing that bothers me about all this, the thing that I'm so frustrated by with regard to all this is that I don't have the vocabulary or the way with words to appropriately verbalize what this feels like. And I think you and I have done as best a job as we possibly can, but it's one of those,

you really just do need to experience it. And like I said, I cannot stress enough. I know I've said it like two or three times, but I heard connected. I saw the photos in these blog posts. I knew what to expect and still my mind was blown when Mike and I got on this FaceTime call together. It's unbelievable.

And it's, again, one of those things where the sum is greater than the whole, or the greater, the thing is greater than. The sum is greater than the parts. The sum of the parts is greater than the whole. Screwed us. Yeah, yeah. You know what we're saying. Little bits good, better bit, bit, you know?

That's what they say. But you know what I mean? Like, the spatial persona was super cool. The freeform super cool the game room thing super cool yep but all together like all of this was mind-blowing i put it together what have you got bibbidi-bobbidi-boo you know what i'm saying you know what i'm saying when i quote mary poppins oh i do yeah that's not mary poppins is it that's uh cinderella isn't it yeah it doesn't matter when i quote mary poppins oh i do yeah that's not very poppins is it that's uh cinderella isn't it yeah it doesn't matter when i quote mary poppins quote in cinderella as she does in the movie and everyone remembers it exactly right that's like the michael scott thing right like when is it it's like the

gwen gresky coat and then michael scott underneath that's me i know what you're thinking yeah yeah no it's it's really incredible if you have if you're lucky enough to have a vision pro you must find someone to do this with you you and I should like do cameo style things where we'll schedule 10 minutes doing this with people who don't have any other Vision Pro friends. Well, we can make a whole bunch of money. That sounds like a September fundraising activity if I've ever heard one.

I could be convinced. I'm just saying, I could be convinced. All right, stop me before this gets even worse. What is something else we can talk about? This episode is brought to you by FitBod. When you want to change your fitness level, it can be hard to know how to get started, which is why I'm pleased to let you know

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and RelayFM. So last time you were on the show, which was episode 448, which was back in February of 2023. So it's been about a year and a bit. I created a new segment called the Casey List Vibe Check. And I would like to reinstate the segment today.

So this may become a thing that you just do every time you're on the show with me. Because Jason is clearly now willing to take weeks off, which it only took us nine years before he was willing to do it. And a celestial event in this case. Yeah. Well, last time we went to New Zealand, I was like, this is

untenable. Just take some time off. So what we're going to do is I have 10 words or phrases. You don't know what they are. I'm going to say these to you. You give me the first word or small phrase that comes into your head. And then we may go back and dig into some of these that are particularly interesting to me so i have my list here and i want you to tell me what you think all right okay are you ready now i did not go back and listen to the last one because it occurred to me you might repeat some and i don't want to like incept myself and so i i was planning to go back and listen just remind myself how this went and i remember being a little dodgy on my part. So I wanted to re-listen,

but then I decided, no, we're just going to roll with it. We're going to see what happens because I don't want to, like, you know, taint my opinions here. So I have no idea what's coming. Because I do have a couple of repeat vibes to check. Mm-hmm.

All right. First one, AI. Everywhere. Oh, okay. Okay. DOJ. F okay. Okay. DOJ. Failing. Wow.

Okay. That's not what I thought. DMA. A lot. It's a lot. Alternative app marketplaces. Non-starter. OLED iPad Pro.

Neat. M3 Ultra I am excited and also desperately do not want it to happen WWDC 24 I think that's my answer just that big sigh Vision OS

I want to see what's coming Apple TV Plus I think that's my answer. Okay, that's all I need for now. Vision OS. I want to see what's coming. Apple TV Plus. Impressive, actually. And Mac Pro. Please, no. All right, obviously the Mac Pro, we all know. You're a co-host, especially John.

We'll talk about it forever. Again, it's always funny to me to try. It's always funny to me first to remember that he's still using that Mac pro. I know. I know. And then for what, what's it going to take? You know,

like that's, that's always like a funny thing for me to think about. Um, so digging into a couple of these. So AI is actually the one that I was most interested in to see where, where you're, where you're at do you use any ai tools it's one of those things where it's it's not um how can i phrase this i i

need ai to figure out what i need how i need to verbalize this so i don't ever immediately jump to ai it's like oh i'm having a tr something i. Well, AI will fix it. I'm not at that point by any means. Oftentimes, though, especially when it comes to code-related things, I'll flail around for how to do something and realize I just can't figure this out quickly. And I've gotten better over the last year or so since chat GPT has really hit. I've gotten better at thinking to myself, oh, you know what? I wonder if I could ask chat GPT this, and I bet I will either get a good answer or an answer that will, you know,

push me in the right direction. And I've gotten better and better at that, but it's still not the sort of thing where I have to get there by desperation, if that makes sense. Like I would not choose to start there, but I oftentimes will end there because to chat GPT's credit, oftentimes it does get me across the finish line one way or another, either by way of inspiration or by an actual solution. So I am using it some. So you're using actual chat GPT for the code questions, you know, using something specific to code.

Correct. That's correct. Have you ever tried the GitHub stuff or Microsoft? No, I know. I know of what you speak, but I haven't tried any of it now. So you would just go to ChatGPT, I assume the free version? That's right, and describe my issue and say, you know, how do you fix it? And do you find it gives you good answers?

On some occasions, it will give me literally the answer. You know, there was an instance where I wanted to create an enumeration, which is basically like, you know, you have a bunch of different options in code and, and, and you will only ever be one of them. Um, and so, uh, I wanted to create an enumeration based off of some other piece of data. So I had a list of like 20 or 30 things and I wanted a code enumeration based off of those 20 different things. And I could do this by hand. It's not conceptually difficult to do. It's just a pain, right? It's a bunch of rote work. And so I said to chat GPT, Hey, I have this, I think it was a JSON object. I have this JSON object and I would

like, um, I would like an enum, an enumeration based on this. Can you do that for me? And I think I had to phrase it differently one or two or three times, but then once I got it phrased appropriately, it was good to go. And so I saved myself a whole bunch of time, not just, you know, mashing on the keyboard, doing the same thing over and over again by spending two minutes in chat GPT. And so that's a great example of it. Uh, on occasion, if I have a weird FFM peg incantation where I'm trying to convert a video from one format to another, I'll, I'll turn to chat GPT to do it. So yeah, it's definitely given me reasonable answers, occasionally completely on its own without me having to triple check or anything like that.

Okay. I have two main uses at the moment. One is to help me rewrite stuff. And I use a combo, depending on the tool that I'm in. If I'm in Notion, I use Notion's AI to do it. If I'm doing something that I'm just putting into a random text box, sometimes I'll just use ChatGPT. But the thing I'm most excited about right now is a service called Perplexity.

Oh, I've not heard of this. It's a service where they combine a bunch of different models together and have their own stuff that you sprinkle on top. I'm using it in replacement of trying to do 50 Google searches to get an answer for something. So that's what it's really good at. So we're going to Disneyland Paris later on this year. And we're trying to find some restaurants to book. Now, as a Disneyland fan, a Disney World fan, sorry.

Thank you. Thank you. You know the issue of trying to search for anything disney related it is just seo garbage website after seo garbage website right and what i like about these tools is they will just read every website and find the things that correlate between them to give you the answers you're looking for like for searches like this it's like so good at wrangling in the seo destroyed web of course the problem is these tools will also create more of this job like garbage content but i'm trying to live in that perfect moment where i can get the answers that i want without you know stuff happening

also like also with comics like a similar thing i'm trying to pick up some like i've basically read all of the spider-man comics i could possibly read or would want to read and so i want to turn my attention to some different titles like i want to maybe read some daredevil comics or some x-men comics and i ask it like give me some suggestions and i i went with these, like to try and get the most out of them, I'll always give their pro versions a try, at least for a month. And with Perplexity's pro version, it asks you questions about your question. So like they understand the question.

It's like, do you want good stories for an origin story? Do you want good stories that are short? Do you want good stories that are short? Do you want good stories that are a long period of time that have some classic moments in? And then I can select, just tap which ones I want. Then it goes out, creates a list for me. Then you can also collect up your answers into these little collections.

I'm pretty high on this service right now because I just like it. It kind of sounds like I'm doing an ad for them. I actually think I would like them to sponsor the show now um so perplexity if you're out there just you know send me an email but yeah it's a service that i really like so it's just intrigued um why do you think alternative app marketplaces are a non-starter it's too much work and nobody's going i mean not literally nobody of course there are people who will care. I don't think it's as much work as you think it is. I mean, I think it's a lot of work for the developers.

Yes, that's true. That is not what I was referring to, for the record. I was referring to what you think. You just go to a website, tap a button, tap install. Like, it's not that wild. If I recall correctly, The Verge said you needed to go to the website and then you needed to effectively introduce your phone to the fact that this marketplace exists then you need to go into

like settings and say to your phone yes i'm aware it exists yes i would like to use it then you got to go back to the website then you got to install the app marketplace and all this jazz and like it's not it's not an obscene amount of work but i think it's enough that until we get something oh yeah you're right i was what i'm thinking of is how easy it is to install apps from the app marketplaces. But yes, to actually install the marketplace itself, you have to jump through a bunch of hoops, which I would be surprised if all those hoops will still exist in a year from now. That's also very, very fair. That is a very good point. But sitting here today, as what we know now, I just don't think your average person is going to jump through these hoops.

And there needs to be some justification for it um as an example when the iphone first came out i remember there was an app and i can't remember the name of the app it was like itether or something like that i forget exactly what it was but basically what it allowed you to do was tether to your phone and i forget if it was like a socks proxy or something like that or or if it just enabled something in iOS or at that point, iPhone OS, but one way or another, it was a way to let your, your phone tether, even if your carrier didn't give you permission to do so. And it required a jailbreak. And I remember I desperately wanted to be able to tether. And I don't remember the reason why. And I ended up only doing it a handful of times, but I jailbroke my phone in no small part. It was like this,

and whatever it was where you could drag down from the top of the screen and there were a bunch of widgets. Do you remember that? Do you know what I'm thinking of? There was like, you know, like Wi-Fi on and off and like volume and all that. And those two things were enough

to make me jump through all the hoops of jailbreaking. Now, I'm not trying to say that jailbreaking is the same as an alternative app marketplace, but it's spiritually, yeah, it is. It absolutely is. But it's spiritually in the same direction. And so I so i don't i i can see the argument that it is for a particular type of person and that particular type of person is likely to jump through those hopes the thing that i wonder about is like is there a breakout app that can exist

that we're saying the same thing that's exactly it is that you know it is delta enough and maybe maybe delta is. Maybe that's all we'll take. Or Fortnite is actually, that's an even, that's a much, much better example. Is Fortnite enough? And if, and that I could absolutely see. What we know today where Fortnite isn't yet in an alternative app store, they've said it will be, but it hasn't yet.

Knowing what we know today, I stand by it's a non-starter, but I 100% agree. There can and honestly likely will be some sort of app that pushes people over the edge to deal with jumping through all these hoops. I feel like I know the obvious, but WWDC24 makes you groan? Mostly because I'm just sad

that I'm missing out again, or at least sitting here now, that's the expectation. You have yet to receive a developer pass. Well, I have officially been denied a developer pass. Have you been? What, they said no? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They went out

right before we recorded ATP last week, so I think it was Thursday. I know they send an email if you get in. I didn't know if they sent an email to say you did not get in. Yeah, I mean I can dig it up if you give me a minute, but suffice to say they're like, hey, we're sorry. To my knowledge, in the past, they have sent these out.

Like, they've sent out some afterwards, but I don't know if they're like... Yeah. And I think that is possible. And, you know, it is plausible that I would get a press pass, but certainly, you know, the history indicates that that is unlikely. There was one year, I want to say it was 22, maybe it was 21, but I think it was 22. There was one year I was offered a press pass, but it was before Michaela was, my youngest kid was vaccinated and I didn't want to mess with traveling across the country.

It was funny too. It was when like we all found out like two days before or something. So it wasn't that short, but it was like, we weren't even, it was, there was going to be a developer event and then all of a sudden it got bigger um and a bunch of people were invited yeah and so i did get a an invite then which i declined when it absolutely murdered me to do so but i stand by it and so i never no other time ever ever ever ever ever since i'd been going to wwdc in 2011 which admittedly was before anyone knew who the heck i was uh i've never been offered a press pass to it. I don't expect to this year, but I would love to be able to go at some point to see Apple Park, to see what it's like at Apple Park, et cetera,

et cetera. But yeah, I mean, I've not been offered and that was my initial gut reaction is to be selfish, to be honest with you. But more broadly, if I'm allowed a second opinion on it, I am excited for it, actually. I'm excited for all of this AI stuff. There's enough smoke around here that there's got to be a fire. I'm excited to see what AI really means in Apple's context. I'm super excited to see what VisionOS 2.0 looks like because at this point, we have a point. We need at least one more point to make a line. And I really want to see where this inevitable line is going to be reaching for. I'm trying not to use the word point again.

So in what direction is this line going? Yeah, I'm pretty excited for WWDC, the potential of it this year. Like, for these reasons of like, is Vision OS 2 going to be exciting or is it going to be disappointing? Like, I hope it's going to be exciting. But obviously the star of the show this year, I thought it might might originally i thought the star of the show would be vision os2 but that was before uh ai reared its head and apple was talking about it and saying they have stuff coming and you know we obviously have heard things now we've seen reports and so it's intriguing to wonder what it's going to look like like and is it going to be

like a whole new way of thinking about using our iPhones? Like potentially, or at least will developers have brand new tools to create new experiences that they couldn't before? So I'm pretty excited for WWDC. But similar to you, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be attending this year

and i've got some stuff going on in the summer and i think i'm going to be able to make it work so that will be a shame but i'm excited about the announcements that could come yeah before we move on from wdc very briefly i've been thinking and this is not an original thought of mine in fact i think around the same time i had this epiphany, I want to say it was on Mac Stories that John or Federico was talking about it, but I really am getting the vibe based on zero facts, just the vibe that we're going to see some sort of visual refresh for iOS this year. And it's going to look very similar to Vision OS. And I have no facts to back this up. I just get this vibe that that's going to happen. And I'm very curious to see if we do get some sort of visual refresh on the iOS side. How does that make you feel as an app developer?

As a developer, I am not looking forward to it. Is it made easier by the fact that you use SwiftUI? I think it is. Because you'll get some stuff for free in theory? In theory, especially since I generally stick pretty close to the way things look stock i mean obviously i tweak here and there but i'm generally i don't go too off the wall with it i think what makes me dread it even less though is having gone through the vision o vision os native port because it's not very hard at all to get an ipad app to work in vision os in

fact it's pretty darn straightforward. But to take an app that has an iPad version but make a native VisionOS version, you can flip that switch reasonably easily and just comment out a bunch of stuff that isn't applicable in VisionOS. As an example, you can't change the icon right now of a VisionOS app. And so you just got to comment all that out. But in order to make a VisionOS app that feels good on the platform, which I like to think the call sheet does a pretty good job of, that's a fair bit of work. And it took me a long time to really understand what work needed to go where. Now that I've been through it though, I feel better about it. And so I'm not nearly as

miserable as I would be if I'd never done that effort. But as a developer, I'm kind of eh about it. But as a user, I like the look of vision vision os i think it looks good i think it looks modern i like that there's affordances for buttons even if it takes you you know looking at them first but at least there's affordances you know so i like it from a user perspective i think it would be kind of nice but from a developer perspective why don't you want the m3 ultra is that like for yourself or just to exist because that means mac pro in theory it might be studio it will also go into my studio no no it's it's that was again me being completely selfish about mac pro related discussions because my co-hosts on atp especially john as you mentioned

are obsessed with mac pro are very disappointed in the current mac pro and so the m3 ultra it to me i associate that almost exclusively with the mac pro even though you are 100 correct and it's really more about the mac studio i would argue more about the studio but but to me it's a lot about the mac pro like if they had something above ultra like maybe that like because there was the rumors of the extreme the extreme for a while like that that might be a mac pro only thing but i would be really surprised if they made anything just for the mac pro because like that thing is hanging on by a tether like it really is but i mean that being said the m3 ultra is interesting and especially since it seems like all of the m3

generation chips they they appear to all be bespoke rather than kind of different cuts both in a literal and figurative sense, of other chips in the lineup. You know, the M1 and the M2, it seemed like they had a building block and they just combined it or doubled it in different and interesting ways. Whereas what we've seen of the M3 dies is that they're more bespoke. And each M3 is just tweaked a little bit to be that one and only one thing honestly i think the apple silicon story so far especially when it comes to the mac we have been wrong in assuming that it was going to form a pattern yeah that's true i mean it did for the first two years but then now we've gone way off the it well i would i don't know if it did like they were doing weird things and like the

we're assuming a certain type of power gain and it wasn't necessarily there like i and again like one is not a pattern right yeah yeah so i don't know i'm i'm intrigued about it because that's the computer i want next is an ultra max studio which i'm sure will be incredible and in that sense i very much want this to happen i would love to see what this looks like and so in that sense unselfishly so here for it but selfishly i really don't want to hear the boys whining about it for a while yeah i just you know i'm using an m1 max macbook pro as the machine that i do my recording on and stuff. And really for me, with the reason I want to get the studio and I want it with an M3, I don't even think ultra,

like an M3 Pro would be fine for me. I want inbuilt IO and I want something that will last me 10 years. In theory, 10 years, right? It doesn't cost two, but I want a bit of headroom which is much more achievable for me now uh considering what i'm doing on this machine but yeah i've i've really gotten i think the most out of this mac pro and i could keep running it

for longer but i really don't like having to use a dock for the important IO and there just aren't enough ports on this machine. Yeah. It's funny. You know, I oftentimes will bring the computer to different parts of the house. I'm running an M three max MacBook pro. I had an M one max MacBook pro before. I probably shouldn't have upgraded, but I couldn't resist. And I'm glad I did, but I probably didn't need to. Nevertheless, uh, it is not unusual, particularly when doing development work. So I have a phone plugged in. I might have an external display plugged in, or perhaps I have the Vision Pro plugged in. I can quickly run out of my three USB ports. That's not even counting power.

You know, I've got MagSafe for power. I don't think the machine has too few ports, but I would not complain if it had a couple more. Last one I wanted to touch on with you unless there was any that you wanted specifically to give more context on was apple tv plus you said impressive yeah i didn't expect much of apple tv plus when it was originally announced especially since you know early on all we really knew of apple's entertainment stuff was like behind the app or whatever it was and that like like, um, the, in the carpool karaoke. And there were like a couple of things early on that were just not good, but then,

you know, Ted lasso drops and what was that? 2020. And ever since then, I feel like I have had many different people, both in and out of nerd circles recommend to me a smattering of different Apple TV plus shows. And we have not watched all of them and we're not caught up on a couple of them, but any that we've spent the time to try, I don't think there's been a one that we've been like, eh, like we've loved,

uh, or maybe loved a strong, but we've, we really liked the morning show. We haven't seen the most recent season. We've loved for all mankind. That's the best recent season. I mean,

for all mankind is really underrated recent season i mean for all mankind is really underrated in my opinion um shrinking is phenomenal ted lasso is phenomenal um uh what's the one that with that ben stiller directed i'm drawing a blank severance thank you severance we all i think those are the only slow horses we haven't watched that one yet slow horses i know the kinds of books that you like, right? And I know that we both like Jack Ryan. You like those kinds of spy and that kind of stuff, right? Yes.

But I think we talked about this on Analog several months ago now, but I read the first Slow Horses book and I thought it was fine. Forget the book. Forget it. Forget it. I bet you I would enjoy the TV show quite a bit more. Gary Oldman is just incredible in the show. And I love Gary Oldman in general.

We just watched the Steve Martin documentary. Oh yeah. How was that? Really good. Really good. It's three hours split into two parts. It's kind of like looking at back at his career and then looking at where he is now, which is really great.

And we just started watching palm royale i've heard of this but i know nothing of it it's really nice like it's not setting the world on fire but i think it is a visual treat and like it's it's quite an interesting story we're about maybe a third or halfway through i would recommend checking it out like that this got a fantastic cast at least ricky martin's in it which is oh wow oh that's cool rich is amazing god damn does he look incredible my god he spends a lot of time to be shut off and oh boy ricky martin he's like 55 years old isn't he i need caution but uh whatever the case may be. No, that's not at all surprising. There's a lot of either makeup

or like smoothing with CGI on some of these characters in this. But like, nevertheless, he looks incredible. He looks incredible. That's very cool. But yeah, that's really fun. But yeah, I agree. I mean, the thing that I worry about

about TV Plus is the viewership is very low. It's very low. It's starting to become a bit of a joke in Hollywood for that. People want to keep bringing shows to them because Apple pays a lot and they pay up front, which is not normal. And they're allowing people to take swings and take risks. As well, it seems that if you do a project with them,

they will keep working with you on new projects. It seems to be like they're building good relationships, but the viewership is very low compared to the other streamers. I'm surprised. I totally believe you. I am not at all trying to argue with you, but I'm surprised that that's the case because, again, I've had so many people reach out and say, oh, Severance

is so good. Oh, Shrinking is amazing. Look at the world you're in. Of course we're watching you, Sean. This is regular people, too. It's not just nerds. I hear what you're saying and you're not wrong. They have the occasional breakout, right? Like Ted Lasso. So basically a lot of this stuff is the Nielsen ratings, right?

And the Nielsen ratings are really low, but Ted Lasso, they made it into the top 10, but it's like the only time they've done that. So like they have the opportunity to do it, but the general like, people are not watching content on these on their platform and part of it might be is that they don't have a lot of content right so maybe when it looks like how much time are people spending on any streaming platform apples might

be lowest because they don't have 10 seasons of the office to watch right but they are low and you know again all we have is that data because no one will ever tell you anything right but they're having successes for sure i just hope that they're willing to stick with it in the long term there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to though because they have the money right but it is i find it a shame that that more people don't watch a lot of their stuff which is like genuinely you, in the last five years, the majority of my favorite new TV shows are coming from Apple TV+. Yeah, which is incredible.

And so, like I said, it's impressive. I really do think it's impressive. Thank you for allowing me to check your vibes. Of course. My vibes may always be checked by you, Mike. I am here for you. This episode is brought to you by Vitally. Customer success teams today,

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Are you familiar with this segment? We have listeners write in with questions and then we answer them. We call it Ask Upgrade. Are you familiar with this, Casey? I am. I dropped the ball on the lasers at first. My apologies. I completely forgot for a second. Good laser work.

Lucky writes in and says how much storage did you both get I dropped the ball on the lasers at first. My apologies. I completely forgot for a second. Good laser work. I'm here for you now. Good laser work. That's right. Lucky writes in and says, how much storage did you both get in your Vision Pro? And how much are you using right now? Do you think base model storage is enough to get by? Don't worry about the number. It's not important. I was going to say,

I'm not sure how much I'm using. Because the answer is like, for me, I got the 512, right? The middle one. The amount that I'm using is just the amount that apps take up. I'm

storing no content on this device. This was just a question at first of like, will I store anything? Will I have download anything on here? Like, I wasn't sure. And so like, that's kind of my answer. Right now, I would say you don't need to do

any other tier. The reason I got, I would say you don't need to do any other tier. The reason I got the middle tier is I don't know what's coming, right? And that was kind of how I felt at the time. And 256 gigabytes wasn't a lot, really. And so I thought, well, let me get 512. Because let's say, for example, if I'm traveling and I download a bunch of movies, like they're big files. And we don't know how long this device is around for, right?

If this hardware is around for right like if this hardware is around for four years things might really change and so that's that's very fair yeah i got the 256 i wanted to get in and out as cheaply as i could which still was not cheap i was like in for a pound pound pound in front of a pound was my it's fair and i i wish i had had the chance to um to check, but I know that I got the 256. And to your point, the only real data I have on it is downloaded movies. And the only reason I did that was for train travel actually leaving when I visited you in New York. And I'm planning to probably be using it on a plane later this month for reasons.

And so I've downloaded some movies on there. But other than that, I downloaded some movies on there but other than that i have no data on there and i feel like sitting here today 256 um is probably enough billy asks how many domain names do you own i looked i did look earlier today to verify this and i have 11 only 11 okay so billy's question is i hear mike specifically mentioned very specific dot coms for his shows including upgrade and i'm curious you have 11 do you have any that are like interesting outliers like do you have any domain names for things that are like interesting names that you just got them for or do you only have them

for like specific things no i don't think i have any like goofy ones like i know on bonanza may it rest in peace that that was the you know the the case study and goofy names for things um i have uh a domain for michaela's name which is you know parked effectively i have a couple different variants of app related domain names i just recently registered a domain name that i might use in the future to represent services that are running out of the house. So this may or may not ever be used publicly, but I wanted an actual domain name for it. What do you mean? What does that mean? Services? So like I have, I have some things, some like a web based things that, that are served on my Synology here at home. You can't have a podcast with me without talking about the Synology. And so they're based out of the house.

And whether or not they're publicly accessible or publicly reachable via the internet, I might still want to have a domain name that will respond with an IP address that's only available locally. And so I just the other day registered that. I do have list.family, which I believe just redirects to my website.

Oh, and I have Declan's name as well. But by and large, it's nothing that interesting. I guess the most kind of clever thing that I have is accidental.tech, which I thought was kind of fun, which I believe just redirects to ATP.fm. But yeah, there's nothing that exciting here. And there's 11. I have across two Hover accounts. I have 86 domain names. Holy jamolies. Yeah, it's a bit of a problem. I turn a bunch of them off every now and then so they don't renew.

But I have like a large variety of domain names, which are some of them they needed. Some of them I have them, but they're not needed. Some of them are like things i might use in the future and some of them are just fun things that i like to have so like a bunch of them are jokes like 123 membership.com which i think goes to connect its membership i have file of feedback.com i don't know where that goes um i think it is to our feed i think it might be going to the feedback form for upgrade but these are jokes I make there was one time where I made a joke

about you can spell getmoretext.com however you want oh I remember this that was a mistake that is 11 of my domain names is that especially because it was made into an animation so they're now on YouTube forever

I have a couple of interesting ones I have paidcasts.com especially because it was made into an animation. So they're now on YouTube forever. I have a couple of interesting ones. I have paidcasts.com. Interesting. Okay. Like podcast, but the word paid. It was just like an idea that I had.

Sometimes I have like words or phrases to pop up and I'm like, is that available? And it is. And I'm like, I'll take that. And so I have a few of those. What else? I'm looking if I have anything else in here that's interesting.

Hackitnumber.com. What was that? I remember that being a thing. What was that about? It's, I don't remember now. It's something related to the amount of computers you have represented in oh yes based on a singular state of steven's collection so you can calculate your own hackit number based on that right right right right there's a similar thing in the relay discord called the hurley number which is about your keyboard collection based on a constant state of my keyboard collection at one point yeah i have a lot of domain names um

it seems so merely eight times what i have yeah your annual bills i know it's probably it's horrible of the entire money but that's especially because there is a certain time of the year when most of them renew which is like in the summer is when all the membership domains renew indeed which includes all of those MoreText ones. And now I have ones that were for an episode once. We did askupgradeoutloud.com where we had listeners submit audio of them asking their Ask Upgrade questions. We should do that again at some point

because I have this domain name. That's true. You might as well justify it. I might as well justify it. Allofthemax.com. I don't even know what that is I know these are jokes for something but who could even tell

what they are I also have so obviously my product the sidekick notepad people think I say psychic notepad I own psychicnotepad.com for this reason you gotta prepare yourself I have a Casey list question for you right here.

It comes from Mark. Mark wants to know, how much extra would you be willing to pay for a cellular Mac? So I'm thinking of the option, how much would you be willing to pay to add on top of the price of a Mac laptop for it to have cellular connectivity?

All right, hold on. I've got to log into my bank to see how much free money I have. Really? Because it is all of it. How much more? What is a realistic surcharge that you'd be willing to have? I think $200 or less, I'm not even blinking an eye. I think $500, I'm starting to think, I'm not even blinking an eye. I think $500, I'm starting to think, is it really worth it? I want this so badly. And for those that are, that are really into tethering, this probably sounds nuts. And for those that don't ever work outside of like a building, this sounds bananas. And to be fair, since COVID has been settled down, I'm not going to sit here and try to say it's gone away, but since it's settled down, I will go into the library.

I will go into Wegmans, the local grocer that has a really nice cafe area with tables and whatnot. And so I don't necessarily need this as much as I did during COVID times where I would only want to go outdoors to a park bench, don't call it a picnic table, or to somewhere else. But nevertheless, if I'm a passenger in a car, particularly on a long car ride, I'm likely to want to get a little bit of work done. And it would be phenomenal to just open the lid on my Mac and effectively instantly have an internet connection. I would genuinely pay at least a couple hundred dollars. And I think around the $500 mark is where I would probably go, maybe tethering is the right answer. You know what I mean? Like I would pay literally hundreds of dollars to have this option and it would probably completely neuter my battery, you know, dramatically affect my battery life. Don't care. It's worth it, especially with the Apple Silicon,

when you have all that extra battery life anyway, i want this so badly i i would do almost anything for it i want it give it to me please yeah i find tethering just like not in that like automatic tether tethering not to be a very good experience i i actually i wouldn't say i'm a unicorn but it works for me more often than it doesn't, but it doesn't work enough that it isn't annoying. Does that make sense? You know, it's still just annoying enough that I absolutely want for this. And plus the other thing with tethering is now, instead of destroying one battery, you're now destroying two batteries. You're destroying the battery of the device you're using and the battery of the device

that you're tethering to. And, and I just don't like it. I just don't dig that. And so, yeah yeah i would absolutely without a shadow of doubt i would love for this to be an option maybe one day you'll get exactly what you want you'll get your tethering mac i'm not convinced that they will ever do it at this point because i don't think they will i think we're more likely to get a touchscreen mac than we are a mac with cellular built-. But for me, I would vastly prefer

a cellular enabled Mac over a touchscreen Mac. I would like to provide some really important real-time follow-up that's just been sent to me to wrap up today's episode. Jason Snell was on

Good Morning America this morning. What? Are you serious? Yeah. I'm completely serious. As like a random passerby or is like featured?

He, it's to do with the eclipse. And so Jason was part of a video package. I think he called in from an airport about what to expect for a solar eclipse. I think it was like a prerecorded thing. I've put a link in the show notes. It's called what to expect for a total solar eclipse. the show notes. It's called What to Expect for a Total Solar Eclipse. And Jason features in this video around the two minute and 50 second mark. And so he's calling in talking about his eclipse experiences. How did this happen? It's Jason Snell. What is happening? I know how this happened.

I will allow for Jason to tell that story if he wants to tell that story yeah yeah definitely but oh my good gracious that's incredible so that's that is so funny if you if people want to want to watch jason and good morning america clearly he's upgraded from this show right i'd say he's not interested in this show anymore he just wants to be on morning shows instead he's like upgrade no way put me on gma only and that's where he is in his life you know gma today that's incredible i think that's where dma today comes from it's one of those things i don't remember which one it was usa no it's usa today it's this yeah yes the newspaper wow that's bananas i can't believe that that's so cool if you would like to send in a question for jason and i to answer on next week's episode,

will you have any feedback? Will he be back? We don't know. I mean, who knows? He's now a national sensation. He's just a correspondent now. Jason's been discovered. But if he is back, you can send your questions in at upgradefeedback.com. Thank you to Casey for filling in for Jason this week. If you want to find Casey's work online, go to caseylist.com.

You should check out his app Call Sheet in the App Store. And you can hear Casey's podcasts, ATP, and also Analog, which is on RelayFM, with me. So if you enjoy the two of us together, you can listen to a show that's us every month just talking. Really, it's just talking about our lives. It's just where Casey and I get together. We talk about what's going on in our lives. If you care about us, you'll probably enjoy that show.

You can listen to my shows like Analog on RelayFM. You can check out my work at cortexbrand.com. You can find us online. Casey is at Casey Liss, C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S. That's Casey Liss. I am at iMike, I-M-Y-K-E. You can watch video of this show,

which this week includes Casey Liss. Indeed. Over on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube. We are at Upgrade Relay. Thank you to our members who support us of Upgrade Plus. Go to getupgradeplus.com to sign up. Thank you to our sponsors, Vitally, FitBod, Adblock Pro, and Delete Me.

We'll be back next time. Casey, thank you for joining me. Say goodbye, Casey Liss. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me. Goodbye, everybody.