Upgrade - 525: Best of U3

Episode Date: August 19, 2024

from relay this is upgrade episode 525 for august 19th 2024 today's show is brought to you by fit bod delete me and krcs my name is mike curly i'm joined by jason snow hi jason hi mike by my calculations if you do 52 episodes a year, after 10 years of Relay, you should have 520 episodes. This is episode 525. We're not at our 10th anniversary yet. I just want to point out again how much extra work

we do. How much extra work... No calendar can hold us down. No, we burst straight through. There's like a week, and it's like, hey, one episode of Upgrade, and we just kind of jam ourselves in there and like, nuh-uh! Two this time to this time boom we did it how about that and we high five and that we did that like nine times in 10 years apparently so great i have a snow talk question for you it comes from anthony who wants to know jason you said on the last episode that you were a long time youtube fan i'm curious what is your favorite album or song from the band you

too um originally this question said lifelong, and I just want to point out I'm not a lifelong U2 fan because they didn't exist until like 1980. Well, the whole lifetime of the band. And in fact, the... And I was not a fan for the lifetime of the band. In fact, when my sophomore year in high school we had to do reports about a thing we liked. i don't even remember what extended project of some sort and there was a guy in our class who uh did a thing about u2 and we thought it was uh we thought it was dumb and then in 1987 the joshua tree came out and it's a great album and it's my favorite u2 album and i became a u2 fan so that's

the answer the joshua tree and favorite song i don't know i had a hard time picking i don't have one clear favorite uh maybe one which is from octoon baby or with or without you which is from joshua tree but like it's great i have a playlist called best of you too it's got like 50 songs in it it's great and then there was that time that apple's uh apple music i cloud sync thing whatever had a had a little burp and i got an additional playlist called best of you three oh my god i was i was already for that i nearly just smelt water into my microphone that's going to affect me for the rest of the episode now it incremented helpfully when it got a sync failure of some sort and i thought oh no i can't i don't know which one of these playlists there aren't two playlists there were it it made

a mistake but it does that thing where it's like, well, okay, I'm going to add a number onto the end. But then they've obviously got code that says, but if there's already a number at the end, just increment it. And therefore I got a playlist I have not yet deleted because it's hilarious. Also, by the way, does not contain the entire contents of the best of you two playlist. They messed that up too, but the best of you two playlist they messed that up too but the best of you three a great classic playlist that i've never listened to because why would i do that incredible yeah some good apple music uh bugs there you have to you have to keep it right like it's too i do yeah i do best of you three it's uh best of you three there are only 34 songs best of you two there's 55 songs so who what i don't ask it's but let me ask you jason is the best of you three

playlists better than the as the curation better is it gonna good edit do you think i don't think so. Okay. I don't know. I don't know. It's not just cut off at the end. It's like there's some very weird sync problem. I don't know. Don't ask. It's Apple Music.

If you'd like to send in a question of your own to help us open a future episode of the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com and send in a Snell talk. We have some follow-up from last week's episode Jason. We'll start with some stuff on macOS screen sharing. So I'm seeing from 9 to 5 Mac here. Starting in beta 6 the screen sharing prompt

now allows you to approve for a month rather than a week and the pop up says app name is requesting to bypass the system private window picker and directly access your screen and audio. This will allow AppName to record your screen and system audio, including personal sensitive information that may be visible or audible,

and you can approve, you can deny, or you can approve for one month. Is this better? No. Well, yes, but it's better, but doesn't solve the underlying issue, is what I would say, which is asking once a month is better than asking once a week. But not having, apparently, a way to say, no, really, I approve this app, stop asking me, I think is user hostile. And then I also think the way that this is written, and again, it's a beta, but assuming's written it ships like this it's written in a way that shames the developer and provides a level of technical

detail that no regular user is going to understand bypass the system private window picker and directly access your screen and audio like i don't actually know what private window picker means what is that what are they talking about there is so is. So it's a system thing that they did where there's a more constrained way to grab information off the screen where you, as an app, ask the system to have the user pick a window, right? It's that thing. And the user picks and it gets shared back to the app so that there's an intermediary. This is one of the ways that Apple has tried to make things more private and secure is that there's an intermediary. This is one of the ways that Apple has tried to make things more private and secure is that there's an intermediary that asks. So like in iOS,

it's the idea that when you select a photo, instead of the app reading your photo library, the app asks Apple to ask the user to select a photo and the user selects a photo and Apple hands the photo that was selected back to the app, right? Because that's more secure and private that way. The app can't see all the photos. The problem is, one, that's a very technical API kind of thing going on here. And two, it doesn't actually solve the larger problem of apps that actually do need to read your screen and are not just sort of screen sharing a window, which is what this seems to be suggesting. so yeah so like apps that want to see everything do they get the one month still or is

it just a one week for those no i think they i think they get the one month okay i think i think that this is just an example of of uh the the text one of the prompts yeah i mean a month is better than a week but it's still worse than forever. Right? I mean, that's what we're arguing here. And here's what I'll say. We got some good feedback from a couple of listeners who wrote in and these are things that I hadn't considered.

I'm sure you had, but we didn't talk about them on the show specifically. So the first one comes from Adam who says, this change that Apple wants to make is going to be a miserable mess for IT professionals. Services like LogMeIn and Splashtop must have screen recording permissions to allow remote IT support to take control

and support remote computers. Having to accept the permission often would be a disaster for IT departments. Confused users might disable the software and create more work and frustration. And Stephen wrote in and said, I have a Mac mini home server like many people do. I also work at a church with the software and create more work and frustration and steven wrote in and said i have a mac mini home server like many people do i also work at a church where people are remote every day

but sunday and remote interproduction machines to set up the weekend if you never or rarely see the screen of the machine how would you re-authenticate so you can continue to have remote access yeah i saw a master on post by luke v who does the Screens app that was similar, which is how do you connect to a remote Mac in order to control its screen so that you can administer it when it's in a data center or something like that if the act of connecting to it pops up a dialogue?

Like you can't use what happens. At least the second example in that example is like it's something you're doing to your own computer, right? So like, like you know maybe you can work it out but that first one about it departments that feels like a a nightmare the second one maybe you can work it out if there's a way to do it that doesn't do that prompt that's fine but if i'm on vacation and i need to connect to my server back at my house and it throws up a prompt or honestly if i'm in sitting at my desk and i need to connect to my server in the back of my house and it throws up a prompt. Honestly, if I'm sitting at my desk and I need to connect to my server

in the back of the house and it throws up a prompt like that and I don't have access to the interface, it's actually an enormous problem because I can't access that computer if that's the case. It's a very, very, very bad use case. That computer doesn't have a monitor attached to it. And you can't dictate

when it's going to show you that prompt either, can you? And there's that. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't APIs for a lot of this stuff and there are ways through and all that. I'm just saying that there are lots of complexities here. Both of these examples are good. And we'll come back to what we said last week, which is, I think I'll appreciate Apple trying to protect users. The issue is protecting the users haphazardly, stumbling around and throwing a bunch of things, a bunch of permission dialogue boxes up there inartfully and without thinking through all the use cases is going to break people's workflows and make more work for people. And they need to consider the whole before doing this. And that is, see, that's at the root of my criticism of stuff like this is it just doesn't feel very well thought through. Like the security people, their job is to think things through carefully. And the reasons that they're choosing, I think, are careful. And the APIs that they're building to create more secure ways of accessing private information, I think, are carefully planned. And then you get to the point where it meets the user and it does not feel carefully planned.

It feels haphazard. It feels last minute. It feels like people who are really under the gun to force an interface onto users because this API has been built and the security stuff has been built. And the last people to meet it where the rubber meets the road

are the people doing the interface. And they're just kind of like tossing things out there. And as I've read this week from a bunch of people, it also is very piecemeal. Like that's the other problem is there's no holistic answer here. There's no, you know, oh, there's three screen recorders that you use. I'm going to put up a dialogue in, you know, at an unknown time to you in six or seven days where I say, Hey, there are three apps looking at your screen. Do you care? Let us know. Instead, you'll just get three pop-ups at three different times, presumably. And it's just, again,

it's just haphazard and frustrating. And I, you know, I, I I've discovered in the last week, listening to podcasts that I have become the permissions guy, apparently. And I don't want to be that guy, but somebody has to say, you can't just go, oh yes, Apple, thank you. Thank you for protecting us. Thank you.

When you get smothered by pop-ups and partly the people who just click yes to get it out of their face they're not even going to complain that's a huge security problem right and who's going to say right who who is there to say so if i have to be the one to say this is bad do better i do think that's kind of part of my job and unfortunately the reason i keep coming back to these permissions requests it's not because i'm against security and privacy It's because this is a place where Apple is failing, right? Like they are not doing a good enough job.

So that's the reason. Like I would rather not. But that's the reason is my Mac belongs to me. I need to have a certain level of control over it. You can get in my way to a certain extent, but then you need to get out of my way when I tell you to. And that's not happening. And it's just unacceptable. They need to change change how they approach this why can't they just I mean there already exists a like that little screen sharing thing that pops up in the menu bar that

goes purple right like why isn't that enough like I don't I don't feel like I'm having to re-authenticate my camera usage for applications and like my camera the access to my webcam for an app is as audio is like that's as dangerous in my opinion as screen sharing just in different ways i got my little orange microphone in my menu bar and like there is the purple one right because i remember you had to change some stuff for bartender to get it to work so like what yeah what is not good enough about that system that it can't be adapted? And like, I don't,

if what it takes for me to never see these things is to have another one of those colored icons in my menu bar, I'll take it. Fine.

Like, I'm a big boy. Like, I can handle that. It's not going to upset me that much if I get to do the things on the Mac

that I want to do and maybe it protects other people. But like, why does it have to be this pop-up every month? Like, just give me the little purple icon on the menu bar or whatever I I hope that the sign that they push this to a month is a sign that there's been some understanding inside Apple that this is maybe not the the best approach and that hopefully

they will continue to make changes here honestly Honestly, having to give permission again later is fine for me because it does solve a lot of issues where instead of it, somebody has access to your system and you give permission in the moment and then they never ask again is not a great situation to be in. But the next time they ask, or if you go immediately to a particular setting, at some point you need to be able to say, stop asking. Or notify only, right?

Where like, that's the other way to go, right? Which is instead of having a permission, have a notification, have a thing in the menu bar. There are other things you could do, but that's, and that's my big point here is, I feel like a bunch of smart people at Apple who are experts in user experience could get together and come up with kind of a holistic approach that serves the needs of privacy without getting in the user's faces quite as badly and giving

users power to control their Macs when they want to. It doesn't feel like that has happened. And instead, it's just another permission thing comes off the conveyor belt and they slap another permissions dialogue box into the os and we're showering in them now and it's just it's too much they need to they need to do better and that's just and and i'm i'm aware of the fact that there are internal apple issues here right like i'm aware of the fact that there are certainly people at apple who feel exactly the way i do they're just not being heard and so i don't want to say apple doesn't get it i think there are parts of apple that do get it and i think even the parts that maybe don't get it

kind of get it but they're like they just don't care and they don't think it's important enough and and so you know all i can do is complain, I guess. So there, sorry, I did it again. Well, you know, we're doing the best we can out here, you know. I wanted to just do some follow-out, Jason, to a wonderful movie that was put together by a friend of the show, Ian Anderson. Ian was with us at the Relay 10 event, and he was going to be making a video and he ended up making this beautiful thing which is kind of like honestly it feels like like a love letter to Relay and he

spoke to all of the hosts that were there including you and everybody including you had some very lovely incredible heartwarming things to say about what we've built together over the last 10 years because relay is now 10 years old as of yesterday when we're recording um and it's a 15 minute video uh i've watched it three times i cried all the way through all three times um it's very special to me and i hope that people check it out and also if you subscribe to ian's channel on friday i think this coming Friday, he's going to be putting up a two-hour interview that he did with me and Stephen.

So we both sat down with Ian and spoke to him for like an hour about Relay. And he's putting that together too. But he ended up making something, I think, wholly more heartwarming. And yeah, everyone that I've seen that's watched it in our Discord and on social media is just like, still, it was incredible that I've seen that's watched it in our discord and on social

media, it's just like, still, it was incredible. So, um, I hope that people will give it a time. And then again,

I would like to thank you in person because I have waited until now to say that, uh, it meant so much to me, the stuff that you said and, and I love that very much. That's, that's great.

Um, Ian literally just said, Jason, here's a microphone. I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions. And I had to speak extemporaneously it was a little before we went on for the show so it was kind of a lot baby and i remember nothing about anything there so yeah i'm glad very sweet it's great it was yeah it was just super nice to me that like so many people said such similar things unprompted

from each other which was just like just made me feel real good about this thing that we've all built together over the last 10 years and i'm very thankful feeling very thankful uh this past weekend so i hope people check it out because i think it's worth 15 minutes this episode is brought to you by fitbod if you're looking to change your fitness level it can be hard to know where to get started, which is why you should check out FitBud. It is both an easy and affordable way to build a fitness plan that is made just for you. This is super important because everybody has their own path, their own journey with personal fitness. So FitBud makes sure that they take all the information that they can to customize everything to suit you perfectly.

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Clunk clunk. Fortnite is back on iPhone via the Epic Games Store and Alt Store Pal. So we knew this was coming. It has now happened. The Epic Games Store has launched. Fortnite's on there and a couple of other games as well. Epic has said

that they're going to expand this out as time goes on and they're going to be expanding and extending the deals and arrangements they have on the Epic Games Store and other platforms to this. Namely, Epic's cut is 12% of transaction fees.

So that's one of the things that they'll be extending for other games that want to join. But there's been loads of interviews with Tim Sweeney talking about how things like the core technology fee makes him think it's probably not going to be a lot of games that want to join, but nevertheless. Alt Store has also announced that they have received a grant from Epic,

which they're going to be using to pay the core technology fee for their users. Alt Store say that this basically no longer means that at the moment you have to you give them a fee and it covers development and also covers the ctf and it's an annual fee that you pay for just for access in alt store so now no users will have to pay this going forward this is new customers and no renewals will occur for previous customers these two things epic new business because they're also putting fortnight and other stores as well there's like more stores than just all stores that other

stores are going to launch they're going to put fortnight there basically it seems like they're doing everything they can to undermine apple and increase the desire for side loading worldwide because all of the headlines that i've seen which i understand why the headline is this way like the one on the verge fortnight is back on the iphone just not your iphone exactly if unless you're in the european union that's not your iphone but people will want fortnight back on their iphone especially they have timed this so well jason i don't know how familiar you are with this but it's their marvel season just started it was all time yeah yeah so they know what they're doing they mean they know what they're doing they do i i mean i don't particularly like tim tim sweeney and the way he goes about things but i mean and i think that some of the the stunts that they pulled with apple were counterproductive

but i appreciate their sticking with this and um and you And this is the great experiment. We'll see where it leads. But I honestly don't know where it will lead. I think that they're just trying to continue putting pressure on them. And again, is it self-serving? Of course it is. other revenue around the world on iphone in order to make this point and maybe they're playing a long game here but i think they're also uh standing up for something that they believe so good good for them i i could make a catty remark about that there's taking a percentage for games that are in their store because isn't it supposed to be about gatekeeping etc etc but you know if you don't like it you don't have to go on their store you can go to a different store because again there's uh different marketplaces in the eu there there's some there's some the epic game store is quite complicated um there's a lot more to get into but they are a better partner to their partners um like they they frequently fund games and then take a cut like so there's a there's a different scenario going on there. But I mean, this is the thing.

I don't think they said they don't believe Apple should take nothing, but I think what they said... Anyway, you were talking about putting pressure on it, making changes. Starting in iOS 18.1, Apple is going to be allowing developers access to the NFC chip and the benefits of the secure element i don't know when this was changed from enclave to element but apple refers to it as the secure element so what is this going to mean i'm going to tell you right now this is quite complicated like i read like three articles four times today um so there's a few things going on here so financial

institutions will be able to offer their own contactless payment options as well as other contactless payments in stores like a supermarket could have its own i think walmart for example you can pay with a qr code or something and they would be able to uh basically have their own but this will also be for keys car keys house keys that kind of stuff hotel keys transit cards like if you like the oyster card in london it is just like an NFC card, but you can't have it in Apple Pay, but maybe they would do that. Corporate badges, student IDs, loyalty cards, event tickets. Apple say to incorporate this new solution in iPhone apps, developers will need to enter into a commercial agreement with Apple, request the NFC and SE entitlement, and pay the associated

fees. Of course there are fees. But I do like that there is not anyone can just do this. You have to go to them and arrange it because you're really going deep into the system for access to this. This is going to be available in iOS 18.1 in Australia, Brazil, Canada, Japan, New Zealand, the UK, and the US. Now, I want to read from Apple's developer document the very high level of how this works because there's a bunch of things that developers will be able to have access to.

So first, NFC transactions. Users of eligible iOS apps can initiate NFC transactions from within the app with compatible NFC terminals. So you can open up an app, go to a terminal, you can hold your phone on it, and you can double click and pay. Default app settings. Users can choose any eligible app as their default contactless app, which will enable the app to support field detect and double click features. These are field detectors. The default contactless app automatically launches when a user presents their iPhone

to a compatible NFC terminal and after user authentication. So for example, in transit here in the UK, if you put your iPhone on an Oyster card thing, it pops up, it automatically brings up Apple Pay and then you can double click. And then also double click. The default contactless app automatically launches

when the user double clicks on the side button or the home button and does the authentication. So a user can choose for any app that is in the kind of NFC, given the NFC entitlement, to just replace Apple Pay if they want to do that. I guess wallet, right, is what it's replacing yeah what is the wallet good point good point good point there's also support for non-default apps eligible apps running in the foreground can prevent the system default contactless app from launching and interfering with the nfc transaction so this is i guess if you were in your supermarket and your supermarket had its own thing uh and you were in the supermarket's app and you held it up it wouldn't bring up apple pay then it could bring up the nfc thing but you don't Then it could bring up the NFC thing, but you don't have to make it as the default.

This is really interesting, really weird, really complicated. I will be intrigued to see what actually this looks like when it launches. And I desperately hope it does not mean we're going to start seeing banks pulling out of Apple Pay because they want you to use theirs instead. That is what I worry about in seeing this.

Every bank is going to be like, great, now we're just going to do this. So my hope is, and what I think Apple's probably going to do, they're going to price these fees in such a way that it just means that you might

as well do both. But I really hope this isn't the case, man. So this is what I assume. I assume, and this is just because this is how Apple's been behaving, I assume that the associated commercial agreement and fees will be the equivalent of what Apple has done with other stuff where they say, oh, you want to be outside of our Aegis as the wallet app. the wallet app okay as long as the reason you want to be outside is not to get around paying us because you're still gonna have to pay us but you can build a a separate thing and not be an apple wallet which is competition in a sense right which is a developer who wants to build something that

doesn't make sense in apple wallet or is is not supported by Apple Wallet could build it in their app and not worry about Apple Wallet. But Apple still has to approve that app. Apple still has to sign a commercial agreement with them. So is it really that different? I don't know. I don't know. And I agree with you. I am a little concerned as well. I mean, the advantage of having everything be in the Wallet app is everything's in the Wallet app and I don't have to worry about it. And if this is not the case, then that's less good. open up an app and just do a bunch of NFC stuff in that app, you know, like tickets or hotel keys or even like a badge to get into a building or something like that kind of stuff is good.

But I worry about the financial institutions part of it and what might happen to Apple. I don't know. So all of this, the reason I brought this up as like pushing, like all of this is similar to what Apple already announced they were doing for the EU with opening but like they have way less information

about that, so I'm not sure how exactly they overlap, but I think they overlap pretty close. But I think there are going to be some separate things that are going on, which is why they're kind of being very restrictive about the countries that this is going to act in. But

this is like, again, the EU made them do something. So now Apple's doing it worldwide and maybe it'll bring some good, maybe it'll bring some bad. Yeah, we'll see. Spotify is now able to show the prices of the various plans that they have available in their iOS app in the European Union as a result of Apple's legal battle with the European Commission, in which the $2 billion fine was proposed against them in March. As a result of this, something called the Music Streaming Services Entitlement was created. This appears to be able to provide a developer of a music streaming app who opts into this the ability to add one link out to the developer's website to explain how to purchase these plans.

You cannot do any purchasing in the app itself without also opting into the new developer terms and paying the ctf from spotify's what they're talking about it doesn't look like they're actually putting this link in or talking about the link but you can now go and see how much a spotify plan costs which is awesome. This is just think about this. Spotify has spent years in a legal battle with Apple for the right to list their prices and link to

their website. Kind of. They can't even link to the normal website. They can't link to the purchase plan. They can link to a place which explains how someone could potentially buy something. Imagine the money. The money that has gone into this yeah just for something that and this is the thing and i know i mean we've talked about it i i know john gruber's talked about it a lot this is one of the most nettlesome things that apple does because this is like the biggest bit of rent seeking behavior and i just just say it to say it again, making people aware of

things that happen outside of an app and outside of Apple's control is not a big deal. And yet Apple treats it like, oh, every link to the internet is a scary thing that you must be warned away from and information needs to not be shared. And it's the difference between saying, look, buying it in the app using Apple system is super convenient. And so you should do that. But if you don't want to, you can also just go to the web because we all do it. It's fine. And Apple doesn't want to do that. And they can say lots of reasons why, but the bottom line is they want all the money. That's it. That's the only reason.

I can't believe that Spotify spent all this time and money for something as basic as telling their customers what the prices of their services are and linking to their website. Like, come on. What are we doing here? Speaking of wanting all the money, I wanted to get your take on the Apple Patreon thing. We mentioned this very briefly. Who wants all the money? It's Apple. That was not a jingle.

No. That was us singing on a podcast. It's just us singing. That's a different thing. That's a single. Yeah. So just a quick disclosure about the thing. We both work with Memberful.

Memberful is owned by Patreon. I just think that's worth mentioning. Yeah. Real AFM, Incomparable, Six Colors are all Memberful plans memorable plans yeah and they've also been sponsored on these shows before we've had members of sponsor uh so we mentioned this very briefly on the show last week because it happened it broke last monday but it was too big a thing for us to really think about and digest and i've actually went i gave a lot of my own thoughts about this on Connected last week, but I wanted to know your take. So essentially, Apple is requiring Patreon to give them a cut of all memberships that are started in the Patreon iOS app from November.

This does not count any existing payments or memberships. So like if somebody signed up in the iOS app today, Apple's not going to get any money from that person. It is 30% of all iOS only signups from November of this year onwards. What do you think about this? It's also, they changed, they used to have a thing where if you didn't post a thing during a span

you didn't get charged and that is not possible with this scenario either. Yes. I mean, I don't like this. I think that there are a couple ways to look at this and one is um what is apple doing because i've heard there was a there have definitely been threads about this what is apple's policy about having to offer in-app purchases because i've also heard from people who've developed apps where apple said no this is based on buying something outside and even if you don't tell anybody it exists it

doesn't matter you need to also make it available for an app apple's apple's rules for the app store is if you offer a purchase you must also offer in-app purchase so like if someone can buy your thing on the web and it's a digital good, they want you to offer it also in your app and also offer an in-app purchase for it. Yeah. I think that's ridiculous. So there's a bunch of things going on here. First off, I don't actually do any Patreon in the in-app purchase. It makes me think, was it John Gruber who said this? should just they should just shut off their ios app and use the web i use the web for patreon and it's fine clearly it's it's a it's important to their business right like the ios app must be

important to patreon or they would have just gotten rid of it it lets creators put push notifications into iphones like i get i get there are there are there are actually like community stuff in it like people can have like group chats yeah like i don't i don't so things i don't like i don't like apple saying if you have an app you have to offer in-app purchases um especially since you have to offer in-app purchases and pretend that you don't know where else people can buy this thing because it's against the rules that i i think is just fundamentally not great but i also think that this is apple trying to insert itself in a product that already has a middleman so it's trying to invalidate patreon's business model like it made it impossible for amazon to or comiXology for that matter right to sell in app uh because that means two middlemen they're both taking their cut it can't it can't pencil out it doesn't work that way and

so they can't they can't do it not great and the whole idea of the the creators being taxed for this like one of the problems is because Patreon rolls everything together into a single account and then pays creators, they have, uh, they're not eligible for the small business plan, even though almost all their creators are. So it's a 30% cut instead of 15.

So that's, that's the top of it. It seems to be misguided in the sense that people creating art is not something that Apple should actually take a cut of i think i think makes i mean the optics it makes apple look bad but i think also it doesn't really make a lot of sense it doesn't it doesn't cost a sniff test for logic like in a bunch of ways yeah and i think also this is a great example i mean first off it off, it's Apple's one-size-fits-all approach here, which is

Apple doesn't think about the creators at Patreon. Apple thinks about Patreon. Apple is focused on taking its cut from this company called Patreon that's making a lot of money. Apple wants its cut. Not thinking about the fact, at least not aggressively thinking about the fact that

Patreon is actually a middleman, a facilitator for a bunch of individual independent creators yeah but you're just you're just brainless if you know what i mean i know what you're saying but that is like such and i agree with you oh yeah you can't brainless thought this is what i'm saying is is you're looking at it in this certain way because you've decided that that's how you're going to look at the world even though there's very clearly isn't that kind of thing um but they've decided, I was like, I'm sorry. And it's that same thing, right? Which is, I'm sorry, our hands are tied. These are the rules. It's like, you made the rules. You make the rules. Your hands are not tied. You made the rules. So what are you doing here?

And in the end, just stepping back, what does it look like? It is Apple muscling into a whole bunch of independent creators who make a small amount of money on the internet and saying hey we want our money and it's like why do you want the money patreon's doing all the work patreon built our app for us patreon's doing the back end we're cutting in patreon what has apple given us and apple's response is well we built the platform that the patreon app runs on. And it's like, well, okay. Congratulations. So why aren't you entitled to a portion of what Patreon takes from us?

Why are you entitled to 30% of what people are giving to me as an independent creator? It just looks bad. It doesn't pass the sniff test. You're absolutely right. And, you know, again is this is actually an easy one this is a great example of apple playing by a playbook from when they were they were down on their luck and desperate for money and now they're rich and they're still playing by that playbook and it makes them look bad it it is i would say it's probably as harmful it's probably as bad a look as the hydraulic press

ad was but it's actually actual harm they're actually doing the thing that people were upset about that time it is Patreon creators in the hydraulic press now yeah exactly well like that was just an interpretation before I had a thought about this and like you know like looking through Patreon's rules and it clarified something to me which I'm gonna I feel like I'm gonna

keep talking about now as people end up going to hit us a lot like Apple are perfectly happy with their customers paying more for digital goods than everybody else. Because they have zero problem with you putting the 30% on top. Yeah. And the argument is, if it's so easy to do an in-app purchase, then you pay extra for it if it makes it super easy. Like, okay.

Like, all right. I mean, I think that there's, my frustration with Apple's in-app purchase thing is they don't want to compete. They want to hide and have this 30% and not compete

and maybe have to lower their take in order to make it. But like, as a platform owner who has built-in payment systems that are just right there in their APIs and everything like that, should Apple offer that and take a cut

and say, look, we made it really easy for you. Just give us our cut and it's all built in and it's using their existing credit card and you don't have to worry about it. Like that's not an unreasonable proposition. It's all the other stuff that's been built around it, which is you can't tell people about the other things. You can't link to the other things.

There are no other alternatives if you're in our store, unless you're in the EU. This is your only choice. It's 30%. That's the total number uh we have very specific rules about it and you are covered under it so everybody is going to be covered under it that's where it all goes from being not an unreasonable argument uh about apple's convenience the convenience of in-app purchases to being more like a racket just bums me out man yep just bumming this is the feelings part of the podcast where we say um we're kind of tired of talking about all this stuff yeah um because the bottom line is i i didn't get into this and you didn't get into this to talk about

legal policies and who gets cut of what in big business we got into this for enthusiasm about the products and about what people can do with the products and how we use them and how other people use them to make their lives better and have fun and all of those things. And none of this is that. I think there's value in understanding Apple's business,

but like this, you know, we're going to, it's the summer of fun. Summer of fun. You know, this year has reminded me of 2020. It's just rough. Just in that, in summer of 2020, there was no break in the news. It's kept going for the whole summer. Yes.

This year, there has been no break in the news. The news has just kept happening. The thing about this is, it's kind of in between a rock and a hard place, right? This is I think interesting stuff that is happening to Apple. We cover Apple. We talk about Apple.

But it's also depressing. But I wouldn't want to just pretend it didn't exist. Right? And we just carry on like it didn't exist but i want to get lost in it even so basically what i've been like where i've been thinking of i think once we get through this period like getting up to the iphone right a couple of weeks for that potentially after the iphone i might readjust a little bit how much i'm putting in yeah but i i'm not gonna ignore it like so like this patreon thing would have spoke about it right but maybe not the

spotify thing maybe not the fortnight thing if i was editing this down but i want to complete the threads of the stuff we started talking about you know yeah i i think we need to talk about it but i i and lawyer up you know the artwork is beautiful and all i i think we need to talk about it but i i i and lawyer up you know the artwork is beautiful and all that i think we're going to continue talking about it but i do think that there's a point at which we have to say as the kind of curators of the content of the show that it's too much yeah and we don't want to do it and i can say from personal experience steven hackett and i did a podcast called download and the the year plus that we did it was the year where every single week was a terrible Facebook story about how Facebook had done another thing to ruin people's privacy

and change election results and lead to potential genocides. And just, it was one terrible story after another to the point where we added a segment called the Fuzzy Puppy Update were so depressed at the end of the segment well we have rumor roundup coming up next and that's a lot of fun yeah and the number one reason we stopped doing download is because it was dispiriting to cover that terrible stuff all the time it's not what we got into this to do and we didn't want to do it anymore and we have had the luxury of just saying let's just stop this yeah and uh we're not going to stop covering the stuff on upgrade but i do feel like at some point we're going to need to recalibrate a little bit because it's a lot there's a lot going on and apple's it's gonna and we can't not

talk about stuff that's apple's apple's doing that we don't agree with or we think is is bad and uh we have to talk about it but there's a there's so much of it right now. And there's a limit to what we can do. Well, it's like I said last week, right? And I've been thinking about it a lot. I think I said it on this show. I don't remember if I said it on the show. I'm going to say it again now anyway.

Okay, do it. And Federico had a version of this himself too, where he said like the two apples. But like for me, it's just that I'm so happy the products are good. Yeah, because I was talking about the Mac malaise time, right? Like I'm so happy the products are good yeah because i was talking about the mac malaise time right like i'm so i'm so happy the products are good right now imagine if the butterfly keyboard was out there now imagine that right like then it would be like

i don't know what i would do like the products are good right now and and like the software is good right now by and large but like the products are good at least. And they're doing interesting stuff. So it at least gives some balance. And basically, just going forward, we're still going to talk about this stuff, but I think I'm going to start tapering some of these bits off a little bit and just try and cover the biggest things. I don't want to do this every week.

But it's like, look, I don't want to do this every week and at this like but it's like look but i don't want to let them off right like this patreon thing we would have spoke about this no matter what it's so this is so unnecessary yeah it's so unnecessary and i'm going to tell you having spent decades now understanding apple's mindset i'm sure the mindset here is essentially, oh, Patreon hides behind their creators, but they're the one that's built a big business taking money from the creators. And we've let them sort of slide and not taken our cut, but they're taking advantage of us now, Patreon, the corporation, and we're not going to let them, we're going to put the screws to them. I guarantee you that's what they're thinking internally. And let me say, Patreon is not without fault here. Patreon has chosen a path that they want to go with their business that

makes it more than maybe the initial plans of Patreon. Patreon made changes to the terms that creators are unhappy with. Patreon is not without fault here at all. And I do think that part of the reason Apple does this is that Apple perceives Patreon as being a business that is trying to make a lot of money from creators while skating by Apple and giving Apple its cut. That said, this is an own goal on Apple's part, because in the end, you make your policies and you could adjust them. And so the argument of like,

well, but Apple had to do this because if they let Patreon slide, then somebody else is going to slide. The answer is no. Apple can make a new entitlement, a new system, a new business term. They can say, oh, if you're passing on something to an independent creator and you have a certain, like, they could build a whole little program around it. They did it for a different type of creator, the big Hollywood creators. They created reader apps for them. Yeah. So they could do it if they wanted. And maybe they will. Maybe this is phase one. the fact is like they should not

have done this just unilaterally like this it makes them look really bad and the fact that it's i think the most galling thing to me is that it's the 30 even though these are all so they don't even get the discount they don't even get the half off even though each individual creator probably deserves it because patreon doesn't as a whole. And so they're going to put the screws to Patreon there. I do think in the end, that's probably what's going on here is Apple. Apple views Patreon as a competitor or as a business partner that is not giving Apple its fair share. I don't think they're thinking about the creators at all, which is obvious because if you thought about it, you wouldn't do this. So anyway.

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another robot, another robot, another report about his tabletop robot robot or not. Robot or robot. Robot or not. Robot or not. Robot or not. You can check out Robot or Not and The Incomparable if you have no idea what that is. Yeah, that's right. All those theme songs we sang by Lex Friedman,

maker of Upgrade Jingles. Indeed. That's what he's best known for. Oh, man. Jingles. I'll put a link in the show notes for Robot or Not. So, Mark Gorman has posted a quite lengthy report about Apple's robotics plans. So the first thing is a product

that essentially combines the look of an iPad on a robotic limb. Yes, it's going to look like the iMac G4. So I'm going to stop you here. Why? I'm going gonna stop you here. Why? I'm gonna stop you here because I'm gonna, I'm just gonna say it again.

A kitchen speaker with a base and an arm and a screen that rotates or goes up and down or whatever is not

a robot. It's not a a robot are you allowed to give that distinction yes okay i allow this show on this show you say well you want me to i mean i can cite we had this question i had this we had this question for john syracuse and he said if it just sits on a counter and moves around uh within itself itself and is not like skittering around and doing stuff on the counter, it is not a robot. It is moving automatically, but it is not a robot. And look, we love Mark Gurman. He gets good scoops. He's very good at scooping. His insistence on calling this thing a robot is killing me.

It's like a HomePod version of the Amazon Echo Show. It's a kitchen speaker that does FaceTime, and apparently it will move the screen around, which some other things also do. I think the Facebook one does it. Also not a robot. It's just not a robot. But he's packed it in this narrative of like Apple has a lot of robotic things going on.

And there are other robotics things that he talks about in here. Maybe more robots. Maybe roll my eyes because I don't think that they're going to be anything we see anytime soon. Sure, sure. Probably never. Whereas this seems like it's a real product. But to say that like, to call it an iPad on a robotic limb, it feels like this is the very definition

of the parable of the blind man and the elephant. Where it's like, you're describing a product that we can all pretty much guess. And I would never describe it as an iPad on a robotic limb. I would call it a kitchen speaker on an arm. It's more intriguing to call it a robot though right this is what i'm that's that's why it's narrative building anyway it's not a robot

it's a it's a it's a home pod with a screen that that can you know move it around like can pivot or something it's not like i'll just say unless it can move around on my countertop it is not a robot that's it. Quote, the device is envisioned as a smart home command center, video conferencing machine, and remote-controlled home security tool. Gurman says that Apple now has several hundred employees working on the project. It is expected that there could be a debut of it in 2026 or 2027 at around $1,000. And there has been internal concern about the price of such a device and if it would attract a market but tim cook and john turnus are

in favor of this project which has now become quote the sole responsibility of kevin lynch okay here's a longer quote the idea is for the tabletop product doesn't call it a robot there the tabletop product to be primarily controlled using the Siri digital assistant and upcoming features in Apple intelligence. The device could respond to commands such as look at me by repositioning the screen to focus on the person saying the words,

say during a video call. It could also understand different voices and adjust its focus accordingly. Current models in testing run a customized version of ipad os okay first off that's describing center stage except you have to tell it to do it and i get the idea that center stage has limitations and if you can actually move the camera around it's better although again what a weird example to say look at me when like during a video call

right like well during a video call it should just Like, well, during a video call, it should just look at you. Why? I mean, I'm now yelling commands at my robot. I don't think this is just for video calls, though, right? Like, you know, me and you are in the kitchen, and I want the weather, and the robot's pointing at you, and I'm like, hey, give me the weather. It's not a robot, but yes, you say, look at me, because I want to see the weather. I get it. I get it.

Robo, HomePod Robo. want to see the weather i get i get it i get it robo home pod robo uh i just again i this feels very much like somebody is describing it and it's being obfuscated and simplified and it sounds much more complicated than it actually is we know all the parts that apple has for this thing i a thousand dollars is a lot of money uh for a device like this um i which doesn't mean that Apple won't do it at that price. But I would say one of my concerns about modern Apple is that they over-engineer their products. Not that they're expensive, because Apple products are always expensive. But that they overshoot and over-engineer their products and that if the only way to build a combination smart home command center video conferencing machine and remote controlled home security tool that moves around in response to

your voice commands is by building this amazing thing that costs a thousand dollars you know maybe let's just not do the arm how about that just get rid of the arm and it's 500 have a little base that turns. Don't even do that. Don't even have it move. It doesn't need to move. That's really not a robot then. I agree. It doesn't, right? Just because you can.

It doesn't. In fact, you could put very clever sensors on it if you wanted to have a 360 view. You could put a camera on the front and a camera on the back and then it could see everywhere. You could tell it to look at you, though. It it to look at you though it doesn't have to move it doesn't have to move and that's i sometimes i wonder if what apple is doing with some of these products is they're saying well there's already those products in the market so we can't make it better we have to make it better we got to make it better but then they make it a thousand dollars it's like well no no make it good

and not full of ads and slow and bad, like what Amazon and Google have, and then bring it in at 500 or 750. But also, yeah, look, make a HomePod, put a screen on it, and it can move on a base, right? Yeah. And that could be 600, say, but it's not 1,000. Yeah, feels very Vision Pro to me, where it's overdone just over over egged this product

too much in here is a product i want right like i do want this and so yes this is that enthusiasm we were talking about in the last segment i'm very excited about apple using all the tech that it's already got that we all know to build a product that is like a home speaker that could go in the kitchen that's got a screen that I can control. And that ties into Apple's ecosystem. Right. Like it's got my calendar on it. When I asked for my calendar, it shows me my calendar. Yeah, I want it.

But they're going to have to tell a real good story, which I think they could. But they have to do a real good story for why this needs to be on a robotic arm and cost $1,000. Right. Like maybe they can do it. And maybe, hey, just maybe, it's so beautiful that you're happy to put it in your kitchen. Sure.

You're happy to put it in your living room, right? And it's $1,000 because this thing is like... Maybe it's too beautiful. You're like, no, no, it can't be in my kitchen. It's too beautiful. I can't even bear to look at it. It's so beautiful. My Amazon Echo show is an ugly duck it's yeah

right my google home is uh it's it's it's yeah it's not great and so maybe this would be really nice and so like that you know that helps to the thing but still a thousand dollars on a roboticom is a lot it's a lot it's a lot it's a a lot. And again, look, it's what we always say with these things. We have so many details we don't have, but it's on the face of it as a lot. And do you remember the HomePod? How much was the HomePod? Was that 500 when it came around the first time? Something like that, yeah.

That was too much, right? But I bought two of those and I prefer one of these. So maybe I'm the problem. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, it just... $349, apparently. But still, two of those 349 seemed like a thousand dollars but it was 349 but this is the thing

this is the thing at a thousand dollars i i i look at it and i say whatever we're doing here it's too much like and that's the problem i've got is like, what's going on inside Apple that you make these decisions and you're like, oh no, $3,500 headset. That's a good idea. And $1,000 kitchen speaker thing. It's like, well, yeah, but it'll be so amazing. It's like, yeah, what would the $700 one look like? We'd have to take off the legs and the wheels that make it roll around on your countertop. Oh, well, do that because then it's not a robot.

I think you made a very good point about they start with the, we want to do this thing. How do we make it different? That's a problem when you do that. We've got to blow away what Amazon and Google have done by taking it like it'll be next level in so many different ways. Because I do think that there's a pride thing where even though again apple they're bad the amazon product the google product they're bad they're not up to your standards it's the equivalent of apple tv versus the stuff that's on a tv or or a roku or whatever yours is better i mean, asterisk, but it is better.

And the hardware is really nice. And you charge a lot for it. And like, it's found an audience. The remote is great. The TV app is great. Like, it's all good, I think. So, Joe Rosensteil's in the chat room. Don't anger him.

No, no. But I'm willing to die on this cross. I think Apple TV is awesome. I love it. Having used other set-top box things, it's the willing to die on this cross. I think Apple TV is awesome. I love it. Having used other set-top box things, it's the best. It's the best. It's got lots of issues, but it's still the best. Okay. But this is my point. Google and Amazon stuff for this category are awful. They're awful. They're not close to Apple standards. But Apple seems to want to, well, but we got to blow them away. They don't want the glory of entering a category with a product that's kind of like what the ones that are already there, but more expensive and better.

And instead, it's like they want to dunk on them. And like dunking on them is not a bad thing, but dunking on them for five times the price of them where nobody's going to buy it is a bad thing. So that's the restraint I would like to see. If you want to make Apple Tabletop Home Robot Pro and Apple Tabletop Home Not a Robot and sell them both, that's great. But you end up in a HomePod situation where you do the HomePod and it goes over like a lead balloon. And then they're like, oh, HomePod Mini. And it's like, oh, yeah, people kind of like that. Right, maybe that should have been your first product.

That's what I'm saying here is I'm getting real HomePod vibes, real Vision Pro vibes where it's like you're making some decisions to blow away the competition when your basic thing would blow away the competition. So maybe make that. Apparently Apple also has a team now that are exploring other robotic devices, including a humanoid robot.

The actual robots. You'd call that one a robot, wouldn't you? Actual robots. This team is being run by a robotics expert by the names of Hans Warfram Tappaner. Tappaner? Tappaner. I will say this person sounds like a robotics expert.

That is the name of someone who knows robots. First against the wall when the robot revolution happens. Hans Warfram Tapaina. That person, I don't know anything about them, but I know they're a robots expert and I believe it. Tapaina's team consists of 100 engineers who departed the car project. They're going from one to the other you know look i i

think that here's what i think about this i like the idea that apple has people who are experts at this stuff who are just messing around trying to figure stuff out that's fine it doesn't need to be a product it could lead to a product it could accidentally accidentally lead to a product. We'll see. I'm not sure if this is in Apple's wheelhouse, but sure, why not? Why not investigate that and experience it? And if yes, if Apple eventually comes up with a little robot that can vacuum and mop and sweep and I don't know what, fold your laundry or whatever, like, great, that'll be amazing. But it seems unlikely to me that any of that will actually happen mark german stand by everybody mark german is also reporting that apple continues to explore a larger imac oh i hope to find it it's what's what's out there what's across the

horizon could there be a larger imac they're looking for it they're out there they're still developing it's like a bigfoot though it's like there are pictures that suggest there there be a larger iMac somewhere out there? They're looking for it. They're out there. They're still developing the idea. It's like a Bigfoot, though. It's like there are pictures that suggest there might be a larger iMac, but we can't verify them. I don't want it anymore. Okay.

All right, you told me I couldn't have it. Now I don't want it. Don't do it. Honestly, I want them to do a larger display. Yes, give me a big display. That a Mac Studio, a laptop, a Mac Mini could be attached to. I want a big display that is

ProMotion. That's what I want. Because I have my 14-inch MacBook Pro that I record on here hooked up to an LG display. Because, like, whatever. Even if I hooked up to a Studio display, it's not getting everything that computer can do. That computer can do ProMotion, and I want that. Give me that a studio display, it's not getting everything that computer can do. That computer can do promotion,

and I want that. Give me that in a display, please. Yeah, that's fair. As well as this, Mark is reporting that the next generation of AirPods could get active noise cancellation. So, currently, you can buy two sets of products called AirPods.

AirPods 2, which were the long-stem called AirPods. AirPods 2, which were the long-stem ones, and AirPods 3, which was redesigned to be closer to AirPods Pro in packaging and its format, but they don't go in your ears. They don't go directly in.

They're the rubber tips. This year, Apple is looking to repackage these right so there'll be two new sets of airpods called the airpods they'll be like airpods 4 basically and then maybe like they may name them slightly different so but what they will do is create a new entry level product that retains the features of the current AirPods 3. Yeah, and AirPods 2, right?

So it retains those features. And then add in a new mid-tier AirPods product that gets noise cancellation, but not all the other features of the AirPods Pro. Both would get USB-C cases. I wonder what these will actually look like. Like they going to redesign airpods 2 to be like shorter stem maybe and then also is the airpods 3 i guess it has to have in-ear silicon tips right like how else can you do noise cancellation you have to have a seal don't you

i don't know no i mean to do a good one yeah because otherwise the the sound gets in and because then what's the point so it looks like what they're going to do is create a regular airpod set and i you know i feel bad for the people who airpods 3 don't fit in their ears because maybe there won't be any more airpods that will fit in their ears then create a active noise cancellation cheaper version, and then AirPods Pro, I don't know what it will get. I wonder, I assume

that these... I guess, but that's not this year. There won't be a new AirPods Pro this year. That will be next year at the earliest, Mark says. I mean, I would assume that as well as noise cancellation, it will also get transparency mode. I mean, it doesn't say that, but I would assume that as well as noise cancellation, it will also get transparency mode. I mean, it doesn't say that, but I would assume that you would get that.

Intriguing. I mean, this is the iPad and iPad Pro of it all, right? Like, this is what they do. The features roll down the line. Yeah, I think they've got... One question is, it's like, is it a mid-tier or is it essentially an extension of what we have now, where we essentially have a low-end AirPod and a mid-tier AirPod? In other words, is AirPods 2 replaced by something that is also at a similar price, right?

I think so. That is sort of very limited in features, but just revised to be a little more modern. revised to be a little more modern and that airpods 3 gets replaced with something that is is you know really just kind of in the middle there so that they've got a good better best kind of scenario with the airpods pro on top you know airpods air no don't call it that it's a bad idea airpods uh and say put the air in airpods in all caps you know just to let you know that it's the okay so yeah interesting i will be intrigued to see where this goes, and I know it's going to upset some people, because people get very specific. Some people AirPods 3 don't fit in their ears, and some people don't want

in-ear silicon. I will just say, you know, people that have... I didn't want to do in-ear silicon. I've never liked that before, but I like AirPods. They work for me. The next iPhone Pro, we've been talking about a bronze color. Is it actually going to be brown though? So there is an image that has come out of potentially

what the next iPhone lineup is going to look like from Sonny Dixon, who has had a pretty good track record with this stuff in the past and the the bronze color iphone pro it looks very uh microsoft zuni it's very brown looking in this image yeah i i would caution people because based on lighting and cameras, colors can really be different than reality. It does look really brown in here. Although there is that one thing that suggested it's like desert titanium or something. One of the names is suggested is desert titanium, which I think is a translation error.

But nevertheless, that's fair. Well, look, it's iPhone math. Okay. Forget about it. Forget that it's iPhone math, okay? Forget about it. Forget that it's iPhone math. That's a reference. What I would say is, worst case scenario,

Zune phone. Yeah. Best case scenario, Tan phone? Yeah. It's not a great best case scenario. Yeah, I'm not sure. so i was intrigued about bronze but like now i'm like i don't know like was this worth replacing blue no as a owner of a blue titanium

phone no but the black one looks nice though you know in this of course it does the black one looks good something that i've forgotten about but i saw in another article about this uh which was the rumor that they were going to move from matte rails back to polished again and it definitely looks like that in this image and and i and i don't know how i feel about that because i actually quite like the matte texture on the side of the current titanium one and i don't want to go back to shiny again i think that's too soon to go straight back um i understand the idea you change things up so they're like you know you're just setting your own trends and stuff but i think one year of the matte rails may not have been long enough uh to go straight back to shiny again but yeah i mean looking at this

lineup i'm probably going to stick with natural titanium. I bought blue and then at the podcast last year, I saw you guys had your natural titanium models and I thought about returning the blue and in the end, I decided the blue is fine. I like the blue and I don't want to go through the trouble of returning my phone and getting a new phone. That said, natural titanium looks real good. And I might go with that next time.

We'll see. I'll probably stick with it. I don't think I'm going to change it because I actually do kind of like it. I want to just say while we're talking

about the iPhone real quick. Yeah. These things are made of really strong glass. I have dropped you've been in my house. I have concrete floors

downstairs. I dropped my phone twice in the last i have concrete floors downstairs i dropped my phone twice in the last week because i had like shorts i had uh i was wearing some shorts i didn't have very deep pockets so it kept falling out my pocket i have dropped my phone twice hard onto the concrete perfectly fine these phones are strong now i know that they break i know that they break but like in years you know going back into the past i don't know how long my phone would have been absolutely done. I've had a couple little drops here and there where I thought,

oh, and nothing has happened. It has hit hard. I had one that hit directly onto the front, and then one that hit onto the side, and then the front, and they made bad noises. It was the kind of noise where Adina was like, oh, no, when she heard it, right, because she knew what it was. No, absolutely fine, not a mark on it.

Beautiful. These phones are strong. Not a mark on it. Beautiful. These phones are strong. The investments that they've made in glass, I know that they have that deal with Corning, right? Yeah. To make stronger glass. It's doing the business. I've got to say, I'm happy with it.

I've got a statement that I want you to think about here, which is you've got to have deep pockets if you'll use an iPhone without a case. Huh? Bravo. No, I think that's incredible. And figuratively. You should be proud of that one, genuinely.

Thank you. I'm putting it on the Hall of Fame, putting it on the board. Yes. Congratulations to me, everybody. Let's raise your jersey. He's going to retire now. Wait, don't stand up for the champions. Yes. Congratulations to me, everybody. Let's raise your jersey. He's going to retire now. We're done standing.

Stand up for the champions. Yes. Wow. That's so good, Jason. You can tell you're a writer, you know? Yeah, the shallow pockets. That was your problem. That was my problem. Because then, you know, you have to shell out for it.

Anyway, I'm not going to explain. Don't keep doing it because we're going to ruin it. Yep. This episode is brought to you by KRCS, one of the oldest around of the Apple Premium resellers We're going to ruin it. Yep. This episode is brought to you by KRCS, one of the oldest around of the Apple premium resellers and your one-stop shop for all things Apple in the UK. For our UK listeners right now at KRCS, you can get 0% interest on any Mac

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and get free next working day delivery on in-stock items ordered before 3pm. Our thanks to KRCS for the support of this show and all of Relay. And it's time for some Ask Upgrade Questions. First question comes in from Steven, not that one, who asks, Jason, what was better in the 90s, Mac user or Mac world? Oh, Mac user. Oh. I was a Mac user reader, and that's why I wanted to work there,

and then I worked there. And we were the upstart. We were a little less formal. We had more fun. And then they merged us together with Macworld. And, you know, most of the Macworld people left and most of the Mac user people stayed. and most of the people you see out there writing about uh tech or working at apple or whatever now are almost entirely people who worked at mac user and not who worked at mac world and that was the big surprise i had was that mac world was much again i don't want to i don't want to say that

everybody was like this but so generalizing is bad but um i felt like most of the people in the mac world staff were, but, um, I felt like most of the people on the Mac world staff were, were happy to be in the magazine business. And most of the people on the Mac user staff were excited to write about Macs. And, uh, and I think it showed, I think Mac world was very serious and professional and, and Mac user was wackier and had more fun and had Chris Breen and Andy and I go and Bob Levitas. And, you know, and I was a fan. That was the one that I read. And so, you know, we tried, when we went to Macworld, we tried to kind of make it more like we wanted it to be.

And just the effect of everybody from Macworld leaving and most of the Mac user people who went over there staying and then, you know, turnover and eventually me being put in charge, like Mac world ended up in a very different place in the two thousands than it was in the nineties. But in the nineties, yeah,

Mac user was my, my thing. Peter wrote in to ask, I'm just wondering if the bigger icons on iOS and iPadOS removed the silly blue dots after you updated an app. I think Peter is very anti blue dot. I tried this out today to check for peter and currently i will say yes it does so i was on my ipad and i updated some apps and i

switched the icons to big and they went up and the dots weren't there because the names aren't there so there's nowhere to put the dot however when i then switched my icons back from big to small the dots were gone even from my test flight appslight apps. So who could tell, you know? Who could tell? Because that's not supposed to happen. But currently, yeah, it does get rid of them. And I would put a bet on it will actually get rid of them. So there you go.

I don't know if I need to know that my apps have been updated. I don't think I need to know that. But there you go. James asked a question. Jason, you're not gonna like the frame of this question i could tell you that because i don't like the frame of this question either but it's an interesting question james asks why does craig federighi seem to get a pass from apple commentators see this is the framing i don't like being like everyone being lumped in together like I called him out on a podcast recently, by the way. But continue.

People are quick to directly excoriate. That's an interesting word. Good word. Tim Cook for issues with regulation, services, revenue, and the China supply chain, or Phil Schiller for App Store rules. But for all of the complaints about Apple's software, paternalism, quality, release cadence, no one seems to bring up the SVP of software engineering who's actually in charge

of these things. Can it really be the hair? Well, first off, you mentioned Tim Cook and Phil Schiller. Tim Cook's the boss. It stops with him. And Phil Schiller, he's been there longer than anybody, and he's kind of the boss when it comes to some of the stuff that is in his purview so that's why they get brought up even though we don't know the true dynamics of it we don't that's the that's the thing about making anything personal at apple is you don't actually know the real dynamics going on that said i don't know whether it was on this podcast or mac break weekly i mean i do lots of podcast people, but I have absolutely, in the last week or two, mentioned Craig Federici.

I think about the permissions thing, but I think the reason, to answer this question directly, Craig seems to get a light touch from Apple commentators, in part, because he feels like he's one of us. He's personable. He's a friendly guy. He's personable. He's a friendly guy.

He's nerdy. He understands about software development. There's so many things as a character in interviews and in Apple events, and it's lighthearted. And we remember when he did his first demo and he was shaking because he was so nervous. And he feels like one of us. So that's the that's my answer. But I will say this. Absolutely.

A lot of these issues about Apple software system and the missteps they make in terms of their software development can be laid at the foot of Fed. Craig, Craig, Craig, Gregory. See Fed. See Fed himself. in terms of their software development can be laid at the foot of Craig Fegery. CFED. CFED himself, our buddy, our guy with the hair. The buck doesn't stop with Craig. There are a lot of SVPs at Apple, but he's in charge of the software.

If we think that Apple software quality is bad or that they have misguided priorities or that the security and privacy people are bullying the user experience people and the user experience failed. Ultimately, while we can't know who's responsible, and that's why you should never make it personal, I do know that ultimately Craig is responsible. And I think a lot of people think, well, he's so likable and he's got to be fighting for what's right on the inside. And, you know, he seems like a nice guy. I think that's all true.

I think it would be fair to say, is he a good leader of a giant software group or not? I don't know. I don't know. I haven't heard from anybody at Apple about it. I don't know if he's like, just because he's a nice guy and we like him and he seems like one of us, does that make him flawless? It does not. Is it the case that Craig Federighi is fighting the good fight every day, but that there's some stuff that he just can't win on? Sure.

Could it also be true that Craig Federighi is letting things go that he shouldn't and not standing up for things? is letting things go that he shouldn't and not standing up for things. And as a result, the processes are not as clean and good as they should be. Could also be true. This I don't know. But I will agree with James that Craig doesn't deserve a pass, even though we like him. That ultimately we can't know, unless somebody wants to tell us, the details of the inner workings of Apple. You can never say, oh, this thing happened that I don't like. Who is at fault? Very hard to say, right? There's huge organizational dynamics at

play here. But ultimately, yeah, he's the guy in charge of software. And if software is messing things up, he's the guy we got to question. I mean mean not that we can talk to him other than maybe at the talk show john gruber can ask him a question that greg jaswiak reaches out and bats out of the air before it can reach him but other than that i mean yeah i i think that's true it's just a lot he's one of many svps and he and and so it's harder to make that statement than it is for something like tim cook who's the boss or ph Schiller, who's been there for a million years and very clearly has had stuff just sort of delegated to him that he rules over and that's it. So that's kind of my answer. I don't think it's the hair, though.

If I had to do armchair psychology, I would say it's because he's the most like us. He's like our wish fulfillment character at Apple a little bit. And as a result, it's very hard to criticize Craig. He seems so nice. And like one of us, I seem to understand him. And we know that like they send people over to his house when there are bugs, right? Like that's all sweet. But like at the end of the day, if Apple's messing up at software, he's the boss.

I don't know if I do a good job of this. I know how I feel. And so maybe, you know, I know how it job of this. I know how I feel. And so maybe, you know, I know how it makes me feel. So I hope I do. I try my best to never try and ascribe anything to an individual because I don't know.

Don't get personal. There's no point, right? Because I don't know who's making the decision. Yeah. Like just because you're the boss doesn't really, sometimes you have to make a decision even though you don't agree with it

because everybody in your organization is asking for it, but it doesn't mean you agree with it. Yeah. But at a certain level, you have to make a decision even though you don't agree with it because everybody in your organization is asking for it, but it doesn't mean you agree with it. Yeah, but at a certain level, you got to wear it, though. If Tim Cook makes a decision, he can say that he doesn't like it, but he made it,

and he's the CEO, so he has to take it. But you also can't say that he doesn't like it. You can't say that because... Because you don't know. It's true. That's why you should never get personal.

Even if he doesn't like a decision that he makes, you can't say he doesn't like it, but he has to take it. Sure, of course. take of course do it because i was but he's still the ceo so in the end he's sometimes things are but anyway i i just for me like i i i would never try and ascribe blame to someone for something like i don't i mean yes apple is what apple is do i think that like the services stuff is like Tim Cook's fault? I don't know that.

I don't know that. Or Eddie Cue's fault, for that matter. Or anybody's. But they just are where they are. This is why I always say the extreme example of this that I really don't like, but it's a spectrum, is people say this person should be fired. Right? Yes.

First off, talking about somebody's livelihood is really, it makes me very uncomfortable. It's gross. Yes. Second, you don't know. You don't know. Like you, unless you literally have been working with these people inside Apple for years

and they can say to me, oh yeah, he should have been fired years ago, whoever it was. Yeah, she should get out of there because it's a bad fit. She got promoted above her level. Whoever it is, one of these people inside Apple, unless you're inside there, you don't get to say, oh, well, you know, the thing is about Craig is they should fire him because I had a bug in the beta. And people say that kind of stuff. And it's like, you don't know. Like I imagine the pressure on Craig Vettorigi to run that organization is enormous. And I imagine that there are very difficult decisions he has to make. I'm reminded of something Obama said, which was like, what is it like being president that surprised you? And he said, you know,

they don't come to me with the 98% decisions or the 70-30 decisions. They come to me with 49-51. Really, they come to me with 50-50. If it's a decision that's easy, it never even gets to the president. Only the very, very hard decisions where there's no good answer get to the president's desk. That's sort of the truth of being a leader in general. But I always remember him saying that because like Craig Federighi, I'm sure that he has all sorts of forces pushing him left and right. And there's the politics and there's people at different at his level who are like, we need this thing. Like, cause he's got John Gianandrea who's in charge of AI that's software, but it's also his own fiefdom and not Craig's group. And how

do they interact? Like, so very hard to say, oh, happened it's craig because like we don't know we don't know maybe he navigated it better than anyone else could possibly have done in difficult circumstances or alternately maybe he totally messed it up but we don't know we just don't know and that's why you should never make it personal. And while I can say, like I said, I do believe that I can say something's going on in software. Craig Federighi is in charge of software. What's going on, Craig? I'm not going to say Craig Federighi should be fired, right? Craig, go fire him because you can't because you don't know.

It's way more complicated than that. And again, I do believe the buck stops here. We talk about Tim Cook and the Tim Cook era. It represents he's been presiding over it for a decade. This is the direction Apple's going in. There is a nuanced debate to have in there, but also as the CEO, I would argue, he's a big boy. He's the man in charge. He has to own it regardless. But even then, I wouldn't make it personal because you are right that there are lots of things I think Tim Cook does as the CEO of Apple that he's uneasy about but he feels that he has to because that's

the job he gets his wins where he can get them like when he stood next to Donald Trump in a Mac Pro factory sometime and just said oh he did this you know yeah no I mean he gets the wins where he can and he does the other things. Yes, I'm pretty sure Tim Cook didn't want to go to the Mac Pro factory with Donald Trump, but he was the President of the United States and he wanted to do it and they're like, okay.

You know, okay, we are going to do this. It makes sense for Apple. I'm sure he was uneasy about it sitting next to him at that thing. But again, he's the CEO of Apple. He's got to do a whole bunch of stuff that makes himself uneasy. And then he's got the places where he says, oh, look at our environmental record. We're going to take the win over here. And that's just, it's a hard job. It's easy to throw stones from the outside. And we can be critical of Apple as a company because they make bad decisions. We've talked about them

in this episode, but very hard to say it's that person there because it's just not that easy. Even though it would feel so good if it was that easy, but it's just not that easy. And Noah asks, now that we're in the summer of fun, what is your go-to music album or playlist for the summer while testing out the betas? Noah specifically asks, Mike, I remember a few years ago, your album of choice was Maggie Rogers' Surrender. Are you enjoying her album this year don't forget me now let me tell you real quick we'll take a quick maggie rogers aside yeah yeah yeah yeah if you have a different thing i was really apprehensive of maggie rogers third album don't forget me because i just didn't think

it was possible she could do it again because her first two albums are just absolutely perfect albums and she did it again don't forget me isn't just incredible as a body of work across three albums it is hard to find i i find i struggle to find a comparable artist where like of all the artists that i love that i consider of my favorites to have three albums in a row and they're all absolutely fantastic i mean she she is what she's operating at a different level like it's i love that album that new album has grown on me first time i heard it it left me kind of cold but it has grown on me over time and i like it a lot better now by the way if you're wondering where an artist of the

caliber of maggie rogers might play when she's in london yep she's got two dates september 4th and 5th you can go see her at london's storied hackney empire where all the best perform only the best and also every taskmaster contestant but also maggie rogers it's wild it's wild yeah she's doing she's doing that they were like i think you it was one of those ones where like if you buy a pre-sale album you could get a code and they're like intimate dates that she's not anyway but yeah like uh i would just say on that album like uh so sick of dreaming the kill and don't forget me they're just oh those songs are just so good. So good.

The summer album that people should listen to to give them the vibe of the summer of fun is, of course, Exotic Themes for the Solar Screen by Michael Cicchino. We mentioned it on a previous episode. That's where Michael Cicchino, the composer, took a bunch of his famous movie themes and turned them all into essentially summer of fun music.

It's pretty great. I also recommend the best of you three it is an amazing playlist that album music made for me it's in the show notes it's in the show notes man just get on that yeah yeah i don't have one thing that i listen to for for betas or anything in the summer my music is just i've got a bunch of different do you have anything new this year though that you've really been enjoying uh i don't know um been listening to a lot of uh caroline polachek who's uh who's really great um and a couple of her recent albums and then she's had she has an album on a soundtrack i forget what i saw the tv light maybe that's really great that i've that i've really been into um yeah maggie rogers i don't know it's uh let me look i've got a i've got a best of see now have they made a best of 2025 playlist out of my best of 2024 they haven't or would it be a best of 2022

would apple music do that i don't know it's yeah my uh my best of 2024 is is mostly like maggie rogers biba doobie caroline polacek and holly humberstone so you know just the usuals what was that last one ho Holly? Holly Humberstone. She's a Brit. She's great. Oh, well, come on. Really, really great. Yeah.

Oh, I love her stuff. She's great. She did an EP with Maddie from the 1975 because every artist I like apparently has a collaboration with Maddie from the 1975 at some point in their catalog. He's out there hunting them. But Holly Humberstone is great. Fantastic. All right. If you would like to ask us a question for a future episode of the show, if you have

any feedback or follow up about today's episode, just go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send that in. You can check out Jason's work at sixcolors.com and you can hear him on Relay and at theincomparable.com. You can also listen to me on Relay too and check out my TheIncomparable.com. You can also listen to me on Relay, too, and check out my work at CortexBrand.com. You can find us online. Jason is at Jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L. I am at iMike, I-M-Y-K-E. You can watch clips of this show on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, where we are at Upgrade

Relay. Thank you to our members who support us at Upgrade Plus. Thank you to our sponsors, KRCS, Delete Me, and Fitbod. But most of all, thank you for listening. We'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Stowe. Goodbye, everybody. ...

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