Upgrade - 553: The Apple Monument

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

from relay. This is upgrade episode number 553 for March the third 2025. I of course am your host Jason Snell. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace, FitBot, Google Gemini and Delete Me. Of course, as you know, we are now firmly in Mike Hurley paternity leave territory. That's right, but we still gotta do an episode, and I'm on vacation. So, it is my great pleasure to introduce my special guest for this episode of Upgrade, Mike Hurley.

It's what a pleasure to be here. I've always loved this show, Jason, and I'm just so happy that you gave me the call now that Mike's out to bring me in. Isn't it weird being on a podcast that you listen to so long? It's particularly weird to be the guest in this environment. It's very strange to me.

This is an episode out of time. We recorded this episode before my paternity leave. Actually on my birthday in case people want to your birthday. It's January in the past, but it's March in the future. Why are we doing this Jason? Why is this happening? Can you explain? I, uh, I have a vacation scheduled and it would normally, and it's, and it's Wednesday to Wednesday. So it's really impossible to record upgrade in the not an out of time episode. And normally I would have said, Mike, you take that one,

but you can't take it either. And so I had the thought, well, if we're gonna do an episode out of time, why don't we do, you and I do an episode out of time and then just drop it in. So a little bonus Mike for everybody. You love it. If there's the people that are missing me, you know,

although I've really only been gone like two weeks. Yeah, maybe. And again, I don't know. I don't know when I'm really there. Don't get used to it. There are there are no extra episodes out of time for you to you to get. So it's just it's an episode out of time.

It's nice. But because we're doing something fun today, Jason, what are we doing? We are doing something called the most important Apple products, or if you would like to call it the Apple monument. Sure. That's another concept. We're still working on it. Mm-hmm.

The idea here is we are going to discuss the creation of, I would say, an entirely fictional monument to Apple products that have, I would say, an entirely fictional monument to Apple products that have, I would say, I don't even wanna describe it, it would have an impact, are important in some way, some way that, like the baseball hall of fame, which has rules, but nobody seems to follow the rules about who gets in, everybody's got their own definition

for what a hall of Famer is. And this is what we're going for here. And the key here is this is not something where we're inducting five things a year or something like that. This is an exercise in which we have to propose specific Apple products. And at the end, only five will be allowed to appear

on the monument because there is limited space on the statue or in the painting or whatever this fictional thing is. Will Barron There's only so much marble that the sculptor can use, you know? Matt McHugh Exactly right. The tree is only that large. Anyway, so we're going to pick five. We're going to make something that is kind of like a draft, but it's really just our kind of nominations for what might be on the, uh, the monument. And then we will make a final list of items. It's a,

the sort of thing you might do for a podcast where you're unaware of news events for the previous five weeks. This has been a, uh, a topic that I've had in my notes for a long time and was originally thinking it would be a summer of fun. But I thought when this is happening, I was like, oh, I've been sitting on this idea. So I'm happy that we can do it.

And the thing that Jason mentioned that I like is we haven't discussed a criteria. So I am expecting that both of us will be bringing products with our own criteria set, which I like. And that that's like, so the first portion of the show is just us talking about the products. Here's a question for you. So you know, I'm assuming we're probably going to be bringing products from categories. Do we wanna just go like higgledy-piggledy here with this?

Yes, I want this episode to be as higgledy-piggledy as possible. Okay, and so for me, I think what I wanna do is I wanna, based on our document, I'm gonna have the first pick here in this list. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. It's funny, it's not a draft in the sense that

this is a collaborative process. We're going to nominate, we may agree or disagree, but it doesn't matter. At the end, we will then need to agree on five, nominated by anybody, it doesn't really matter. And I'm sure we'll agree on a bunch of things and then we'll disagree on a bunch of things. But it's a good exercise.

And with that, Mike, maybe it's time for you to pick one. So for me, I think probably my basic rubric here is some level of notoriety, right, is what I'm going for. Well, I mean, if we're putting this on a statue, it really ought to have, or in a painting, or in a museum, it really ought to have some notoriety, yeah. And I feel like there are the obvious items, and I'm sure we will get to those,

but I have some that I want to make sure are at least, they're at least spoken about. Right? So my first important Apple product is the Apple Watch Edition, the original one, the gold one that cost between 10 to $17,000 because I think that this very specific product is actually quite important because I mean the original Apple Watch important and will be important to history but I think in the I believe as we look back in time this this very specific product is going to be seen as an important moment in Apple's history because if you were to believe that book that I like and you don't like, what is it called?

Uh, after Steve? Is that the book? The trip? That's probably the, yeah, sure. This was essentially, this product was like them trying to placate Johnny, like give him to kind of what he wanted. Um, and, and I think that that was maybe a point which some people would say like, was a bad time for Apple,

like when they were just giving Johnny what he wanted. Uh, but I see it as a really, if you kind of take a bigger view at that, this was kind of when Johnny was done, like he didn't want to do this anymore. And so they were trying to make him feel better. And I think that Johnny, Johnny leaving Apple has made an impact they were trying to make him feel better. And I think that Johnny leaving Apple has made an impact and will continue to make an impact. It may be wholly good. It may be wholly bad. I think we're too close to it still to know. But I think that this very specific product was something that should never have happened for multiple reasons. And I think was actually very embarrassing for Apple in for multiple reasons. And I think it was actually very embarrassing

for Apple in the long run. And so I wanted to at least put it up here as like, I just want it mentioned and in the conversation, it's not gonna make it to the monument, but I wanted to speak about it. Yeah, I, again, there's no way, first off, we don't have enough gold to put this on the monument. Isn't that an Apple Watch? No, it's no way, first off, we don't have enough gold to put this on the monument.

Isn't that an apple wedge? No, it's made of gold. Oh, well. It is, yeah, it simultaneously, it was to placate Johnny, right? I think we could all say there were a lot, and I don't know how many of these are actually true, but I suspect many of them are. It feels like there were a lot of decisions made by Apple in the era after Steve died that were to placate Johnny because, and I know we talked about this on Upgrade before, if you're trying to set a message of stability to the market after this perception that the guy responsible for all of Apple's success is gone.

One of the ways you do that is you bring in the people who are close to him like Johnny Ive and you hold them close. And if Johnny just left after Steve died, it would be an incredible, I think they feared what a black eye that would do to the perception of Apple. But ironically, the reverse I think is true, which is in order to keep him high profile and keep him engaged and keep him around, they gave him more responsibility and gave him more weight in decision making. And as a result in the 2010s,

you see Apple make a lot of decisions that are kind of not practical and don't make the products better. And there are lots of examples of those. But this is an interesting example where, yeah, like the Vision Pro, I would argue, the Apple Watch was miscalculated at the beginning because of some influences by designers like Johnny Ive and then it took years

to kind of unravel it from that and make it more of what it should have been from the beginning. And I feel like Vision Pro is going down the same path, honestly. Will Barron Yeah, different. Well, I guess this is the thing we can never really truly know, right? Like Johnny's influence on the Vision Pro. We don't know. We don't know. But it certainly feels like Vision Pro is scarred a little bit by some of those design, those high design decisions about a product. Like, oh, we must have a screen on the outside and we must have it be metallic and all these things. It's like, did you really need that? It could be the same thing though, because some reporting says that Johnny's, Johnny guided some of that decision, right?

And so like, yeah, I think like the guy was, was Steve Jobs protege. And you know, it said that it needed the pair of them to truly do good work. But like, you know, I think I am a noted Johnny Ive apologist. Uh, but yeah, I think that this was obviously a strange time in his career, like the Apple watch especially. Um, because again, like if the reporting is to be believed, they did, Apple was doing the best they could with a product that could not handle it. I mean, we saw it though, right? Like Apple watch, the Apple watch series zero as as it became retconned in. Yes, that was a, that was a bad product. Like that was, it had a lot of promise. So it was interesting. Like I would actually, I would actually say now the original Apple watch was a

worse product than the vision pro. Oh yeah. Cause the vision pro actually works. Like there's just things about it that don't work. But like, with the way that the apps were communicated from the watch and like how slow everything was, it was a not good product. And I think they were trying their best at that time. So. I just, a word about being a Johnny Ive apologist. Johnny Ive is a brilliant designer.

I think the misunderstanding there, and as I just said, I understand why Apple did it, but the misunderstanding there is Johnny Ive just said, I understand why Apple did it, but the misunderstanding there is Johnny Ive was a brilliant designer who was working with a product person, Steve Jobs, who had incredible taste, and could take what was great about Johnny Ive and also sort of stomp on the stuff that didn't make sense and that didn't work for a product.

And after Steve was gone, I feel like what happened is Johnny was sort of given more free rein and really that is not the dynamic that you want. And it's not really even his fault. Also, I think he was burned out and was bored and was trying stuff, but like you need somebody to say no to Johnny Ive. And in that position in the 2010s,

was anybody willing to say no to Johnny Ive? But you do, Steve was. Anyway, we've spent a lot of time talking about a product that's not gonna make it on the monument. Was anybody willing to say no to Johnny Ive? But you do, Steve was. Anyway, we've spent a lot of time talking about a product that's not gonna make it on the monument. I think that we're gonna find that to be the rest of this episode, but let's, you're up. It could be, we might end up with no monument at the end.

Oh no, no, it's just gonna be a couple of iPod socks and that's it. This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, you can stand out with a beautiful website, engage with your audience and sell anything, your products, services, or even the content that you create. Squarespace has everything you need all in one place,

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and he really is a co-founder. Do you not know who Stephen Hackett is? Anyway, you should, you will. Stephen has friends, people in his community, they want to start a nonprofit, they want to start a church website. There are so many different things that they want to do. And they come to Stephen because he's a tech guy, right? So many of us who are doing podcasts like this, who listen to podcasts like this, they're the tech person in their family, in their community. Like, I need help because I need to build a website and I don't know what to do. And I'm talking to Stephen about this. The answer is usually,

let's use Squarespace and maybe you could do it yourself or maybe I'll help you. But we're going to use Squarespace and we're going to be able to build whatever it is you need to build. A couple of pages, really simple, something more involved for a business, for a non-profit, for a church, for some other community organization. Squarespace is the answer. If you're like, how do I do a website of my own? I can't do that. You can with Squarespace. So head to squarespace.com and sign up for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash upgrade, and then you'll get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So squarespace.com slash upgrade. When you decide to sign up to get your 10% off

your first purchase, you can sign up for a free trial and pay nothing, but go to squarespace.com slash upgrade when you decide to sign up, pull the trigger 10% off and you'll show your support for upgrade. Thank you Squarespace for supporting upgrade and all of Relay. All right, let me make my proposal. I am going to put the original iPod in trans iteration. Okay. Original iPod. The, the it's got the classic click wheel.

So it's got that look. It is, it is bulky, but it is representative of one of the most important products in Apple history. It is the product that made people like Apple as a brand again, you know, where they were perceived as a weird outlying company and kind of like falling away from like their computers were not compatible, all those things. And then the iPod came out and people wanted it and they had to have it. And I would argue that it's got an iconic shape that is recognizable as an iPod. Even, you know, on our, on our monument, we could pick different models of iPod, but I'm just going for the

original iPod. It is that rectangle with the screen and the circle below it, and we can put some earbuds coming out of it. We'll see what the sculptor or painter or whatever says. But I feel like a super defining product for a period of Apple's existence that also changed the company. So the original iPod was the iPod where it had the click wheel. I mean, it was physically moved if I remember correctly, but it also had the circular buttons around the outside. Like this, what this one you could not, uh, it wasn't until what the iPod photo,

where the click wheel actually became a clicking wheel, uh, became also the buttons. Yes. That's, that's true. They, well, they struggled with that where they put the horizontal touch buttons that were bad. Third gen iP they were so bad. Third gen iPod, bad iPod. Bad, bad iPod. So I just, yeah, you could pick others. This, yeah, they had the controls

around the outside of the ring and it spun, which in the second gen, they made it more like a track pad, but the first gen it spun, but it doesn't, I mean, I'm not thinking about these being functional because it's gonna be in a monument. I'm thinking more about the classic silhouette. It it's gonna be in a monument. I'm thinking more about like the classic silhouette. It's got a bunch of iconic aspects to it. The circle, the screen, you know,

it doesn't need a working firewire port on top either. It's fine. It's just, I feel like this is one of those iconic Apple products that should be considered for the monument. I would like to carry this conversation on by making another pick. Okay. I cannot argue with the original iPod or like whatever it ends up being. And maybe it ends up being like, you know, if we were to think of the iconic shape, like it might be like the iPod photo or the iPod video, right?

That the really ended up like in its final form. But if we're talking about from my perspective, a notable, important product, I would go with the iPod Mini. Because I think the iPod Mini, at least from my recollection of history as the person at the time, the iPod Mini was the product that I think really opened the iPod up to the world. It was super small, bright colors, you know, and then, you know, they were able to get four gigabytes in that tiny little thing.

You could clip it to your belt and you had the white earbuds. Like this was my first iPod. It was a pink iPod mini, which I still have actually. And I really think the iPod mini, I mean, and it was followed by other iPods, right? Like the Nano, I think just opened it up even further. But I think this was where fun was brought into the iPod line. And I think really kind of helped proliferate out

into the world at a bigger degree, even than the original iPod. But I would struggle to argue with just iPod classic as being the one on the monument, but I feel like I've got to throw out some love to the iPod Mini, because I really think that it was very, very influential. I think that's fair.

I think that it's a... My argument for the original iPod is mostly that classic shape I think is a really pleasing kind of proportion, and the iPod Mini is a little taller and a little skinnier and a little rounder and while that made it an interesting and fun product, I feel like the original iPod maybe just sort of says iPod more. I agree with you. But like we're dealing with details here.

It is a fun product that yes, it did bring it to the masses and then of course famously was then immediately killed and replaced by the iPod Nano. What did it say? It did bring it to the masses and then of course famously was then immediately killed and replaced by the iPod nano What did they say like it's the most popular iPod ever or the most popular mp3 player in the world? And so what we're gonna do we're gonna kill it or we're gonna replace it something. That's the line I think so good. So good Yeah, yeah Cuz they replaced it with a flash based nano and and that made all the difference because the whole point of the iPod mini Was that it was smaller?

And so they could make it even smaller by making the flash based nano and the original iPod. You're right. It is one of those things that happens sometimes where it's like the one being shown here is actually this very particular model or whatever. Like that might happen with the iPod where we go to the designer of the statue or the painting or again whatever this monument is and they say Which iPod should it be if we decide an iPod is gonna go on there? Maybe maybe in the end it is the iPod classic or something That's a little more refined version because that's what they did, right? They kept refining that silhouette of the iPod and it still always had the circle at the bottom and the screen at the top

And it was a rectangle and that's the most important thing I think I think if if if this was a color product it would have to be white though. I think you're right. It would have to be white. I agree. I think that's the iconic, again that's the iconic iPod. Because I never liked that about the classic, they were aluminium on the front. I didn't like that. I liked it when they were acrylic, like it was white plastic. And so like for me, you know one that I have on like that. I liked it when they were acrylic, like it was white plastic. And so like for me, you know, one that I have on my list, but I will not pick it now because there is no point doing this, is the iPod video. Like that was such a, for me, a really

important product, but it also, again, it like, it built on the foundation of the iPod. They made the screen a bit bigger. You know, it's full color. You could watch video on it. I did. I used to watch video podcasts on my iPod video. That one was like super great. And I feel like something like that, or the kind of the fourth generation onwards,

something in that realm would be what would go on our monument. All right, with my next nomination, I'm going to suggest the original Mac from 1984. Yep. Classic Mac silhouette, it is, you know, and it ended up on every Mac after that for a long time. When you turned it on, you would get the little happy Mac

and it's that Mac. It's that shape. It's that little, again, like an iPod, it's an iconic shape. And I think that if we're thinking about Mon, Monuments, I keep coming back to like, what is this object shaped like and how is it going to, so it's got to tell a story about like an important part of, of Apple, but it's also got to be kind of recognizable and relevant and relevant and hopefully kind of pleasing. And I think the original Mac is pleasing.

I mean, I could argue about the shape of some other, you know, Macs, compact Macs of that early era. It could be, you know, this is the Mac user Eddie Award statue and then ultimately the Mac world Eddie Award statue was originally an ultimately the Mac world, Eddie Award statue, was originally an original Mac, and they updated it to make it an SE, or maybe it was a classic, and it remained that for the rest of time. So there are lots of different classic compact Macs on there.

It doesn't have to actually be the original Mac, but it's got the little disk drive slot and the little screen, and it's just that cute little compact shape says Macintosh to me. I'm gonna make a pick here so we can talk about this because I think the representation, if we were to say we're gonna have a Mac on this monument, right, like if that's the way we end up doing this because who knows we could end up with just five Macs, you know, like we don't. I think checking a Mac will actually be the hardest thing to do. Could be. And I will throw out the MacBook Air, the original.

Oh, I watched you typing in our document. You typed the letter I, which I think you thought I was going to go in a different direction. I did. I think that the MacBook Air, you know, which I think you thought I was going to go in a different direction. I did. I think that the MacBook Air, you know, which became, you know, the one with a little flippy down door, which then just became the MacBook Air, which then became the M1 MacBook Air, like that whole design. It was so prevalent and lasted for so long. I mean, we were just talking about this a little while ago about how, you know, people

bemoan it when it's gone. And we heard from a lot of, I heard from a lot of listeners anyway, who were saying that they love their wedge-shaped MacBook Air. Sure. I think it's probably the most staying power a format has had, like at the top of my head, like, essentially an unchanged design. Like, even the iMac, as it grew up from the G4 into what we have now, I think changed more than the MacBook Air did in that time. Like that design, it lost the flippy down door and then the screen got a bit bigger. Other than that, I don't think it changed, like really at all throughout its entire life. The second gen, the second generation Air basically remained the same through the,

with basically very little change through the M1. The 11 got dropped, didn't it? At some point. Yes, they added the, they added the 11 and dropped it. Yeah. And the 11 inch MacBook Air, I mean, come on, you kidding me? Like what an incredible computer. I know. I love that computer. I think it would be difficult, not impossible, but I think that it is difficult to argue against the importance and the influence of the MacBook Air. Apple tried to get rid of it multiple times, but couldn't because their customers disagree. It's true. It's true.

When it went retina, there was no 11 and it was sad, but it went retina after it had basically been discontinued. It remained around, but it had not been updated. And they finally were like, all right, here's your retina MacBook Air. Because they were still selling them. They're trying to get people to move to the MacBook Pro Retina or to the MacBook 12 inch, and people are like, nope, I just want that MacBook Air.

And then I'm finally, all right, okay, fine. It's better, we did it. And then today, we still have the MacBook Air, which doesn't really make any logical sense, right? There is nothing else in its class. There isn't a regular MacBook, but this one is thinner or lighter then. And like now the Air branding is in other areas now. And it's true, because this product is so loved that they have

an iPad called the Air. We're expecting an iPhone called the Air. Like it means something to people. Yeah, it does, absolutely. It's very meaningful. I have some aesthetic questions about the MacBook Air and laptops in general for the monument. Maybe I'll save those for later, but there's a question of how would you depict this?

Basically, would it be open or would it be closed? Because I feel like an open laptop is kind of is kind of awkward and a closed laptop is is more an iconic shape but is also like just a just a rectangle. I think for the purposes of our of allowing us to have this conversation fully, let's set the parameters for the monument. I'm gonna say it is a statue right? It's a statue. It's a statue. Okay. So if it's a statue, right? It's a statue. It's a statue. So if it's a statue, I think what I would want is open, but with the logo facing you. So you could go around to the back of the statue and see the rest of the laptop,

but that like it should be an open laptop. So you can see that it's an open laptop, but I think that is the iconic thing. Yeah. And like, and that goes back and that represents all Macs, right? Up to, you know, from a certain point where they actually put the logo out the right way. But that, it represents a long time of laptops and Apple Mac history. But yeah, for me, it would be the MacBook Air. Nice. Okay. Well then I will just put on the pile the iMac G3.

Yeah. I was struggling. So I've got my little list here on the pile the iMac G3. Yeah. I was struggling. So I've got my little list here and I actually did have the G3 iMac above the MacBook Air. But then when it came to talking about it, it's like, oh, I think I've got to throw the air in there. But the G3, I mean, I got in my notes here, I wrote it made Apple cool again and set them on the path that will become the iPod. Without the iMac G3, there's no iPod. Without the iPod, there's no iPhone. Exactly. It's all, it's all part of that comeback story. It's funny that we've talked a lot about how the iMac G4 is the fundamental, like maybe the most beautiful Mac ever made.

And I agree and I could nominate it too. And maybe I will because it is so beautiful, the, the, you know, with the could nominate it too, and maybe I will, because it is so beautiful, with the floating screen on the arm. But if we're representing the best of Apple design, really, as well as the impact, the G3, it looks a little weird now, because it's kind of bulbous, because it's got the whole CRT in it and all that. But it is hearkening back to the original Mac. And it is that product that helped save Apple. And it does have an unmistakable silhouette, right? You see it and you're like, oh, it's that, it's that iMac

G3. And so it's an important product. I'm not sure in the long run, if it's And so it's an important product. I'm not sure in the long run if it's Better than a better choice than a MacBook Air or an original iMac But it is an important product with a with a powerful recognizable silhouette, which is why I wanted to mention it This episode of upgrade is brought to you by Google Gemini. I used Gemini for the first time the other day, and the most impressive thing to me was just talking to it. You go live with it, and then it's just like you're having a conversation. You can just talk about

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You'll see what I mean. I thanks to Google Gemini for the support of this show and all of Relay. This is a difficult one because I, it is interesting now. I think design has come back around like where we are today in 2025. I think we're back with the iMac G3 again, which you know, like from part of it is the fonts that Apple were using at that point. I don't know if you know the name of it, but like the the Serif font that they were using, there are versions of this now everywhere. It's Apple, isn't that Apple Garamond? I think we're using Garamond before that sounds right But like that that style that like the way that Garamond looks If you find a startup today, they're using a font that looks like this

Like they are so prevalent But just also just like the general color where people want the color that the see-through like clear, you know people like that Sure, and even I agree what you're saying about the bulbousness of the G3 but it still looks cool still it looks cool and that is not it's an interesting object it really is not just the retroness of it right we you know like cuz you look at something like the iBook that doesn't look cool anymore the the toilet the toilet seat yeah it doesn't and it has a lot of the same ideas to it. Oh, like, you know, you could like the Power Mac G3.

It's not cool. Sure. You're taking all my jokes. These are all my jokes. It's like, what? It's a blue and white Power Mac G3. Let's get the molar Mac in there. Oh, and the monument. Boy. That's why I didn't invite Stephen Hackett to this discussion. Yeah. It would be all just like,

let me tell you about this performer. Weird Mac like, let me tell you about this performer. It'd be like a, like a human centipede of max. It would be disgusting and you'd have to look away like, no, no, I don't want to see it. No performers. No, but I just think that the G three it is it's coolness and it's design is kind of never ending. Like we work at Quasix brand, we work with a couple of branding designers

and they're from Australia and they're, I don't know, probably like 10 years younger than me, maybe more, they were not around or really aware of the G3, but we were having a conversation recently and they brought up how cool it looked. So like, I don't even think it's like a nostalgia thing. It's not just like, oh, you were there at the time.

No, people just love the way this thing looks. And from an import, and again, it's like, what is importance? His product is really important. Like, we don't have Apple today, we're at the G3, right? It is, it's super relevant. I think all the products that we've mentioned so far except the Apple Could be said I just had to get it I know I know you started us off with a bang

Yeah, okay. This is gonna be a tough decision for this for our monument. Well you have any other nominees. What do you have next? I? Mean there is a there's an elephant in the room I mean, there is a, there's an elephant in the room. It's so complicated. Like even, I could just keep going to avoid it. That's been my strategy. I think I'm going to avoid it a little bit longer. Okay. And I'm actually, so, okay.

I was going to pick AirPods at this point, but I'm changing that Okay to the white earbuds Hmm so like the white earbuds I Guess the iPod earbuds. I don't even I because this is just popped into my mind now because like now I'm back in like I'm thinking further back right because the air pods look the way they do because of. EarPods, right? They came before those.

Yeah. It came before those was the white earbud that that was part of the iPod. And then also the iPhone. They are so they again, we're like, there are elements, there are, they are so they again were like there are elements there are there are products that enabled the Apple we have today and they are the iPod, they are the iMac G3 and they are the white earbuds because you were making a statement whether you liked it or not and people wanted these things if you you could have used any earbuds with most of their products, you could use any

earbuds. But the white earbuds were a fashion statement for a long time. So I'm going to throw those out there. I mean, I would also put AirPods, but I just while I'm while I'm thinking retro, I'm gonna I'm gonna throw the white earbuds out there as a important in the history of Apple. earbuds out there as important in the history of Apple. All right. Well, I am going to rip the Band-Aid off. Okay. While earbuds also, we're going to put a little pin in that one because you might be able

to depict them with the original iPod. That's a good call. Yeah, we can get a twofer there. You can slide them in there. Every set of rules needs loopholes, and that is the loophole. Yeah, that's right. I'm going to pick the iPhone 5. OK, interesting.

OK. Why this one? Okay, interesting. All right. Okay. Why this one? So the iPhone 5 has the flat side brawn razor kind of design language of the iPhone 4, but it's taller. And I think I find that shape a little more pleasing. I had a black iPhone 5 and it was the best. It was so awesome. And I feel like if you're gonna depict the iPhone,

maybe you depict an early iPhone design where it's got the button on it below the screen. And if you're doing that, you could pick the original, you could, and I could see the argument for picking the original. The original is super important, but also the original is a one-off, and they never really go back there.

They made the plastic version of it, which was the 3GS and the 3G. And then they went to the 4, which was this style, and that was 4, 5, six, seven, eight. And then they shifted to the iPhone 10. So what was it? Six, seven, is it six, seven, eight that have the rounded edges?

Yeah, six, seven, eight. That are more like bars of soap? Yeah, well, six, six, seven, seven, seven, eight. Yes, right, right. So I think I prefer the flat-sided design to the bar of soap curved design. And that's why I picked the five, is I think it's representative,

I think the original and the 3G and 3GS are interesting historically. I love the original iPhone, but it is, from a design perspective, it's what they could ship. Whereas I think four and five come the closest to being closest for a while anyway, to being sort of what they wanted the iPhone to be. I could also maybe argue that like the iPhone 10 is, is literally what Johnny I've wanted to ship, but I really

like the flat sided design. So I feel like if it's not the iPhone five, I have to go up to like the iPhone 13. And I, I, you know, I, another kind of like flat sided, but in that case, buttonless and I don't know. I think, I think just like with the original iPod, having the circular item down at the bottom is sort of iconic with Apple. So I'm gonna split the difference and say iPhone 5.

I don't feel super strong about it, but if I have to pick one, I could go with a classic, I could go with a later model, like a 10 or a 14 or something like that, but why not iPhone 5? I wanna correct myself, there was no iPhone seven S. Okay. Which is a funny thing that they did.

They went from seven to eight, but the eight was, why didn't they just call the eight, the seven S anyway? So I had in my notes for similar reasons, the iPhone five S. But from an, so again, this is like, if we're imagining it as a statue, it doesn't make a difference in the 5 and the 5S, but I put the 5S down because they had touch ID, right? Um, as like a, an important thing, but if you've just got something made of marble, it doesn't matter what one it is. You have made an interesting, there is, it was something interesting about what you have chosen here for like what is the

iconic iPhone? Exactly. It's the 12 by the way. The 12 is when the flat side design came back. So I feel like flat side design is the way to go. And that maybe the circle, the touch ID button at the bottom, the home button is actually that one. I think it has to be because the six six to the eight bad time for iPhone design.

The only good thing was they had a big one, but the rounded was not that. I don't think that ever looked good. And I think people got tired of it very quickly in a way that even though I think we've sat with this flat edge design since the 12 for longer now. Um, yes, it isn't as tired looking. Like by the time we got to like seven S is like, Oh God, please Apple changed the design of this iPhone. Like I remember that being like a prevalent thing at the time.

Is it very complicated? Right. Because we've mentioned the five and the four. I mean, right. I mean, the four is shorter is all. Um, and the, and the five is a little bit taller. What makes the five S and not five. I just, I put touch cause I had touch ID. I thought that was interesting. Okay. It adds the little metallic ring around the circle. Okay. I mean, that, that might be, it depends on sort of the materials that the sculptureor uses. Yeah. They're not made up thing. Um, it could be, it could be the five s. Yeah, I'm open. I, my love really is that I, that

great black, um, iPhone five and I loved it as my Darth Vader phone. That was my favorite. That was my favorite for sure. I mean, I, I'm just going to put For sure. I mean, I'm just gonna put original iPhone now, so it's okay. Just like Sure. I mean Realistically, it's the most important product that Apple has ever made and will probably ever make I don't think they were ever and I feel confident saying this I do not believe Apple Inc will ever make a product as important as the iPhone ever again. I might go so far as to say no company currently constituted will ever make a product as important as the original iPhone.

Maybe some new company will. I think you're right. In our lifetimes anyway. Realistically, the company before this was Apple and the company before that was also Apple, right? Of like the iPod and the Mac of like... Yeah. And the smartphone, I mean, the smartphone is in many ways, at least so far, the culmination

of the entire computer industry and is the biggest, most impactful consumer product of our era because we've gone from, you know, not having personal computers in the seventies to now 50 years later, everybody's got a supercomputer tied into a global high-speed computer network in their pocket everywhere they go. It's huge, it's transformative. Here's a question for you.

Is the iPhone more important than the PC? If we're looking at, in all of history, we could say the Mac or the PC or whatever, just in general. Let's say the Mac is the PC or whatever, just in general, like let's say the Mac is like the first true personal computer. Is the iPhone more important than the Mac? Yes. Yeah, I think so too. It's required by the PC, the computer is required to get to the smartphone, but the smartphone is more important because the smartphone reaches more people, more people use a smartphone than ever used a computer and is used by them. They use it and they use the data and they use the, they may use the phone,

but they also use the data. I think the smartphone is the, it literally is the culmination of the entire, as somebody who came up as a computer person, a fan of computers, I first got my hands on a computer and like, I don't know, fourth grade, something like that, and just was blown away by it. And it changed my life.

It was a funny moment when the smartphone is growing. And sometime in the 2010s where I had that realization that, oh, all of that was just a prelude to this. And maybe there's another thing to come. Maybe it goes into something that is you wear on your face or whatever. Like we will see. But thus far, this seems to be the definitive product of this entire industry and that has the biggest global impact. You could live your life without a personal computer, right? You could have lived your life. Yeah, many parts of the world, people don't have computers.

They just have phones. I think modern society requires a smartphone. And boy, it does it. Everything's got an app is the smartphone, right? And there are now there are now many competitors. But what we consider the smartphone or even what we consider a phone today, it's the iPhone. That's that is the one that began it. And that's why I would put it here, even though it might not be the most iconic

look, it's the most important product. I think I think that's the argument is, is, is aesthetics here because I, the original iPhone, it's kind of bodged together. It's got, it's got a kind of bulbous kind of curves that I don't love. It's got the two piece back that is not great. It's still metallic. Like they, and when they went to plastic, I'm sure that really drove Johnny I've baddie because they were, they were cheaper.

They felt cheap. And I know why they did it. They had to do it, but like the plastic backs were not as good. And, and as soon as they could, they got away from there, right? They're like, they skated away from there. But that early era, it was not great. And I feel like the four and the five is when they really kind of figured it out.

And then they kind of went into a hole a little bit. So it really comes down to whether we want it representative, whether it matters more that it's the first or whether it matters more that it's the first or whether it matters more that it's the iPhone and here's a beautiful iPhone design. This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by FitBod. When you wanna change your fitness level, it can be hard to know where to start.

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Oh, well, I've I've really talked myself into a corner here, haven't I? Yeah, yeah, you could say that. What am I going to pick next? We could leave the iPhone for a little bit, right? Because like I I have more iPhones, although I actually, you know, before we move on, I'm just going to throw them out there. We're not going to pick them. I don't think. Okay. But so I had the iPhone 10. Yes, great.

Maybe the iPhone 10 we would include the six plus I think is important because it's the first big fun. But I even noted and I mentioned already, the design outstayed its welcome. Well, yeah. And I don't think the sculpture's gonna be actual size. So whatever iPhone we choose can probably be really big. Yeah.

Unless the concept is like it's a person holding all of these devices. But I don't think, I don't know. I mean, it's up to the sculptor, I guess. Up to the sculptor. That's for their artistic interpretation. I look forward to the fan art, by the way, that we're surely undoubtedly gonna get

for this episode, which I will respect. I'm saying it now, and I don't know whether this will come to be, but I'm sort of thinking we might wanna commission something, but anyway, we'll see, we'll see, we'll see. It's actually not a bad idea. We have the time. Maybe there will be something

by the time this episode is done. Maybe, Maybe. The iPhone 4 is important for so many reasons in history. Like it was the iPhone that leaked. It was the first Retina display. It had the first gate. Sure. And it brought in the flat side design that I think is the best design. And then just a random one that I want to throw out there for kind of similar reasons, I think, to my gold Apple Watch is the iPhone 7 Plus.

Okay. It was the first phone that had a dual camera. And it also took away the headphone jack. Ah, yes. Ah, yes, if we don't want water ingress in our statue, we could pick the seven plus. All right. I don't know how I feel about this one, but I'm going to put it out there.

I'm going to propose AirPods let's say AirPods row okay in in their case okay so we're even going autistic yeah well like AirPods Pro is just like a thing. I mean, they could float in space, or if you just have the case, it's just a rectangle. But I'm thinking like, I think I think I'd like to the idea that Apple, first off, AirPods, in general, what a very successful product that people don't talk about. A really great example of a category where there were already existing products that did it. And then Apple came in and everybody went, oh my God, and like Apple became wildly successful selling them and other people still sell them. And they're successful, but not like Apple is successful. It really is like Apple just, it's classic Apple move in all of those ways. And I can tell you as somebody who has been wearing in-ear headphones for a couple of decades now and has turned my nose up at Apple headphones. And it's like, they're just not good.

They don't sound good. I don't like them. The earbuds, I just, I never liked them. I was so skeptical of the original AirPods and they were really good. And then they added noise canceling in the AirPods Pro and, and they're in their canal phones. And they are spectacularly good to the point now where I don't use my in-ear headphones for anything but podcasting. Everything else, I just use AirPods Pro. And then the fact that they have this charging case, which could have

been like super fiddly and weird. But instead I think generally is just a very simple way to have that extra battery life and a place to hold them because you've got to put them somewhere you're going to lose them. And the fact that they kind of like did that as a package and that it, that it works as well as it does. I think it's a really great design. I think I would probably pick the AirPods Pro shape of the case that's a little bit wider, but it could be the standard AirPods and that would be fine too. But I think AirPods in their case of some kind, that would be what I would propose, I think. An accessory. I think AirPods Pro is the right pick. Like, because AirPods, like the original AirPods, just super awkward design.

Stems were too long. Um, and you know, Apple has come to refine the, the, the AirPods that we have today to look more like the AirPods pro I think that that is again, it's like we got to the better version, right? So I can think back to the iPod. Well, really the iPod photo, the iPod video that is, or even like what we're saying about the iPhone, potentially even like what we're saying about the iPhone, potentially depending on what we go with, like they get to where they want to be as opposed to like the original AirPods, which were super weird looking.

I mean, but it was actually quite an achievement of how good a product they were that people wanted to wear those because they were weird looking. They were like with the stems that came down. That was, it really did look like somebody just came around and cut the cables off of earbuds. Yeah. When now they are much more sleek and a much better design and that came with the AirPods Pro. I'm going to go with the iPad, the original iPad. All right.

And the reason I will go with the original iPad is the price. $499, which was half of what everybody thought it was going to be. It's maybe the only time in history where Apple has surprised us with a significantly cheaper price than what we expected a product to be. I mean, everybody thought there was no way they make a tablet for less than $1,000. That was the expectation at the time. Like, you know, the iPad is a complicated product. And if I'm being completely honest with myself, I think I would struggle to argue its place on this monument just in general

as a product category. I think it would be difficult. I mean, we haven't gotten to the end yet. There are, there are complete other categories we've not given a realistic representation to. Yeah. Looking at you, Apple Watch Edition, series zero. But the But the original iPad is a good product. It was the time when people have been most excited about the iPad en masse, right? You know, it's hard to, I think it's easy to forget just how successful the iPad was at the beginning. They sold so many of them, so for a long time.

And you know, the app store was rich and vibrant, but the, but look the story oldest time now at this point, just the iPad did not live up to its potential and still doesn't. Uh, but at the beginning, I mean, there was the, Hey, this is a big iPhone thing. But while people said that negatively at that point in 2010, that was actually a good thing. Like we loved the iPhone, the iPhone was small. Having access to the app store on a big screen was really important then.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I'm going gonna counter here. Okay. And this is, I like your suggestion of the original iPad. I think my counter is largely about design. Mm-hmm. One of the things, okay, so here's a funny thing.

One of the things that I love about the original iPad is its design. It's, look, it gets bulbous at the back. It has the flat sides, and then they just kinda keep going out. So it wants you to think that it's got flat sides and that's the whole end, but it keeps going. Cause there's just too much.

Made it comfortable to hold though, right? It did. It did. It's a good design. I didn't love the future iPad designs that became more, instead of the, as has been made clear already, I like the flat side look for a device and not the tapered design.

The iPad did the tapered design for a very, very long time. And the button on the iPad is iconic, the original iPad. And I've said before, like touch ID, a home button kind of stuff feels very iconic, just like the click wheel and this, you know, feels iconic on the iPod. But I'm going to put it out there that I think as a representation of the platonic ideal of an iPad. I'm going to say the M4 iPad Pro, the current iPad Pro, because it is thin and a perfect a perfect flat sided rectangular slab, I would say the that is, that's the Johnny Ive iPad. It's very thin. It's featureless. I mean, it is very Johnny in that way. And, and so I think it could be potentially a good representative of the iPad without feeling,

because the original iPad, I mean, it did do really well. It did a lot of people bought that original iPad. But I think the M4 iPad Pro is in some ways kind of a refinement at that same design in terms of being flat sided and it's not bulbous on the back. It's super flat and thin. Yeah, it's complicated, right, to pick something so current. I know. I know, but there I am.

It's what the iPad. This is clearly what the iPad should have always been, which is like essentially, it is literally as thin and light as you can make it. That's clearly what they're going for with the M4 iPad Pro, right? How thin and how light can this product be? Because that gets it closest to what, I mean, you know, we keep invoking his name, but Steve Jobs is like, you're just holding a piece of glass. That's right. That's what the M4 iPad Pro feels like.

I could make that argument for modern iPhones. Honestly, one of the reasons that I suggested the iPhone 5 instead of a modern iPhone is the camera bump. The camera sensor in the back is so ugly. And the iPhone 5, it was less. It was just like a little camera. And honestly, I think that's the difference. Yes, the iPad also has a camera bump. So you could go with the original iPad there.

I like, I just, it is, there's something about that M4 iPad Pro I think that is, again, it's so expensive all those other things but like, from a design standpoint, it being like an a perfect iPad, you could say that but honestly, the modern iPad Air is like that too, but something like that. Okay. Important, I don't know, but potentially iconic is the Vision Pro. I mean, it is what it is, right? But like, I think there are a few products in Apple's modern history that are so clearly the thing they want to make for good or ill from a visual perspective like it's so clearly an Apple product. It is almost like someone was walking around and picking up pieces, you know, like it has a crown on it, right?

Like it's got, it's kind of got like a Apple watch band kind of thing around the back of it. It like looks like a bunch of bands that they make. It's like, oh, we're going to use the glass and the aluminium from the iPhone. And it's really got like so many component pieces to what put this thing together is just stuff Apple makes even on the inside like it has essentially a Mac chip on the inside of the thing right and then obviously another it has every possible camera you could put on something.

I mean it is if this thing is ever considered, if the original Vision Pro in the future is ever considered important, I think it is important for maybe the wrong reasons. And, you know, it's like there is a possibility where Vision Pro 4 is like, it's taken over the world, but people would look back at the Vision Pro, the original one and be like, you could see where they were going, but it needed this, it needed that. And then it eventually gets to where they want it to be. You know, like in the same way that like, the original iPod, right? I keep coming back to this,

but like I do think that there is a good analog there of like, you can see what they were going for and it was really cool. I mean, it did have a bigger impact, but it needed much more refinement to get it to the point where this thing works the way exactly as it should. Right? Like it made so much sense to not have these extra buttons on the thing. It made so much sense for that to not be an actual spinning disc inside, right? Like it kind of gets to that point. And I think there is a path where the Vision Pro takes its own thing. You don't need that screen on the front. It doesn't need to be so heavy, right? Like there are many things just from a physical perspective

where we get to like, oh, it could do with support and controllers. So you can do different things with it. You know, like it gets to a point, right? Like, oh, it needs to have Apple intelligence. So you can just talk to it and it will do things for you. So you haven't got to be tapping and pinching all the time. But there are a lot of things that this product could have. I wanted to throw it out there because it is what it is. Yeah. The danger is we put it on the statue

when in five years they're like, what, is this a monument to Apple's hubris that they've put the vision pro on it? That's the danger. But again, like I feel it's similar to why I picked the gold Apple watch, right? It's like that. Yeah. It says something about the company that does say something about Apple. Yes. Then that's, this is going to be Jason and Mike's controversial Apple monument. We're going to be picked. The God Apple watch, the Vision Pro, what, like the iPhone 8? Yeah, and some iPod socks. Well, just wait, because I'm going to pick the original Mac mouse.

Now, maybe like with earbuds, we can sneak it in with the iPod. Maybe we can sneak this in with the original Mac if we use it. But I wanna mention an accessory. The original Mac mouse is representative of the fact that this is the original graphical interface. This is when the mouse was introduced to the world really. I know it existed a long time before that, but this is

when everybody suddenly understood what a mouse was. I think that it's an interesting product ergonomically. It's got a recognizable shape and what's also fun about it is that it's an interesting product ergonomically. It's got a recognizable shape. And what's also fun about it is that it's the one button mouse, because that was a choice Apple made to simplify mouse concepts that had multiple buttons. And of course, then everybody that followed Apple also decided to complicate it by adding more buttons. And Apple has steadfastly refused to do a

Multi-button mouse they have sort of like they do but it doesn't it's hidden and it's not really and so anyway, that's my historical pitch for putting a mouse on a monument And that's a classic kids book if you give a mouse a monument Yeah, as I said, I think if this was to make it on, it would be with the Mac. Like if we put the original Mac on there, we'd put this on there too. I mean, if we're in peripheral land, I'm going to throw in the Apple pencil. Sure. And, and I'm going to put the original one in, you know, it, the Apple pencil.

Is that official nomination for you? Should I put that down? Yeah, let's put it on there. Why not? We're in this now. It legitimized a tool people really wanted the iPad to have. Right? Like there were so many styluses and they were essentially just finger replacements.

Right? They did not do. Yes, yes. Refined work. And they couldn't really. It did open up a new field, a legit legitimized a use of the iPad as a drawing tablet.

And I think that is a significant portion of professional iPad use is artists and illustrators who use this device to do their work. And it is for many the best device that you could use for this kind of work, for this kind of illustrative work. And so I think that they have definitely made this a smart, like a valid use of the iPad. And the Apple Pencil, I mean, the original one is also a little bit notorious for its

charging method, you know, and I feel like you kind of, I feel like if it was this on the statue, the cap would be lost. It would be on the ground somewhere, you know, like a little stone, little marble cap somewhere that's like fixed to the ground and the little lightning port sticking out on the ground somewhere, you know, like a little stone, little marble cap somewhere that's like fixed to the ground and the little lightning port sticking out on the top. All right, I'm gonna close it out. Gonna close the nominations out. Oh, we're closing the nominations?

I think so. Or do you have more? I mean, we just got to the end of the list, but it's fine. We can, well, I'm, this is gonna be my last one. This is gonna be my last one. I think I'll be okay to move on and that maybe Yeah, I want to make one more after you if you don't pick something that if you don't pick the thing I'm thinking about I picked the power Mac g4 cube. That's what I pick. I think it's like it's already like a sculpture

Okay, it's already a sculpture. It's already like a statue. It is a problematic computer, but a beautiful piece of art and I think that you could take it, you could build a giant Power Mac G4 cube somewhere and it would be a great art piece all on its own. And so I put it here. It could be the base of the statue even. I just want to put the Apple Watch series four in here. I think the Apple Watch is an important enough product that it deserves to at least be in the consideration seriously. All right. And I think the Apple Watch is an important enough product that it deserves to at least be in the consideration seriously. And I think the Series 4 is where the Apple Watch kind of got out of its ugly duckling phase. I still think that it needs significant work. The Apple Watch is like a full redesign. I still believe that that is something that I would

like to see them do one day. But the Watch series 4 where the screen kind of really took over the shape of the watch I think was a pretty important step in its product. I Think I have others on my list But I think we can maybe keep those for upgrade plus because then I don't believe that there is any product on here that I think Is important enough to knock off what could be our five Okay Sounds good any product on here that I think is important enough to knock off what could be our five. Okay, sounds good. This episode of upgrade is brought to you by delete me. You know, we've talked before on this podcast about how so much of your personal data could be out there on the internet for people to see how uncomfortable that can make you feel. I know Mike has talked at

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You can get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com slash upgrade 20 and use promo code upgrade 20 at checkout. That's the only way to get 20% off. 20, remember that number, 20% off. Go to joindeleteme.com slash upgrade 20, there was that number, and enter code upgrade 20 at checkout. Joindeleteme.com slash upgrade 20, code upgrade 20. checkout. Join delete me.com slash upgrade 20 code upgrade 20. Thank you. Delete me for supporting upgrade and all of relay. So it's deliberation time. So we pick a list of five from the list that we have.

Why don't you go first for like making, cause we're not picking, it's not drafting this. We have to come to this agreement together. But do you want to go first for like making glue we're not picking a lot drafting this we have to come to this agreement together But do you want to go first to elevating? We'd like try and pick one to elevate and again We can we can do a re-ranking like if we put something on this list It doesn't have to stay on this list right like we can we can shift them off, but we've got to start trying to make Some some some we've got to try and pick some of these short lists

to put them on the five, I think. Okay. Um, I think the iPod has to be on. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think, I think the iPod has to be on, I think, let's, let's do it this way. I think an iPhone has to be on. Absolutely. And I think a Mac needs to be on. Yeah. And then beyond that we actually have two slots for other things, whether it's an iPad, Apple Watch, other Macs, other iPhones, whatever. My argument is gonna be that we only need one iPod and then I think we only need one iPhone because they're just, you know, they're so similar.

Whereas at least with Mac industrial design, it's not only is it a much older product. I also, by the way, because people are gonna say this, I didn't nominate the Apple II or the Apple IIe or the Apple IIc, they are interesting, but I don't think that they're that attractive. You can't argue that that is more important than the Mac. Right?

I don't think you can make that. If we're talking about Apple design, like, okay, I'll just, it's not going on the monument probably, but I'm just gonna say, I'll put the Apple IIc, retroactively, I just nominated the Apple IIe, there it is, I just did it. We're also equal because I I threw an extra line at the end there but I really I don't to me right I don't think you can say the Apple 2e and then just immediately replace it with the original Macintosh like yeah I I know that there would be people that disagree with that, but I think that would be a wild thing to disagree with.

All right. Here's what I'll say. I want to get, I do want to get specific, right? So for the iPod, we'll start with the iPod. I would suggest. What it was essentially the iPod video, which became the iPod classic fifth gen at a certain point, but that is. the iPod Classic 5th Gen at a certain point, but that is... It's got the larger screen, so it's easier to see, just a pure click wheel, and it's flat on the front, white acrylic. I think that is like the absolute sweet spot for iconic iPod, in my opinion. The 5th Gen is also known as.

Okay, iPod fifth gen white. Got it. I'm fine with that. Let's do it. That is still the iconic shape. Let's put the earbuds in there too. We've got to get the white earbuds. White earbuds.

Got it. Okay. Now, do we want to try and do iPhone? Sure. Sure. Sure. I feel like the iPhone 5, but I don't like the original iPhone mostly because I don't think it's as good as as important as a product. If we're talking about design, so we're really in the like what goes, which one do we want

our artists to depict in the statue, right? Which is not the same as what's the most iconic, but it's like, how do we want our artists to depict in the statue, right? Which is not the same as what's the most iconic, but it's like, how do we want to depict the iPhone? Which iPhone do we choose to depict the importance of the iPhone, right? That's sort of what we're saying here. So, the iPhone 5 I pick from a purely aesthetic argument. from a purely aesthetic argument.

Yeah. So, all right. So I think realistically, we have three phones to pick from, right? We have the original iPhone, we have the iPhone 5, we have the iPhone 10. They are our iPhones to pick from. And I think we're picking three different things here, right? We've got recognizability.

I think today is probably the iPhone 10. Like realistically, I don't agree because the iPhone 5 design, but the iPhone 5 design comes back with the iPhone 12. Yeah. But the iPhone 10 is the, is the, is the, is the bar of soap design. Yeah. But I'm thinking about the home button.

Right now, like iPhone 6. Yeah, but I'm thinking about the home button though. Right now, like, physical shape, yeah, they're, you know, the iPhone 5, but like if you're depicting the actual phone with some level of detail, the home button, while iconic, is probably not the most recognizable thing today. Well, yeah, but it's iconic. I mean, that's my argument.

Otherwise, otherwise I would make the argument because I do not. I mean, I don't want the curvy sides at that point. I would say why not? Why isn't it the iPhone 12 pro? Yeah. But so here's the thing. I know you're except for the, except for the camera blob on the back or the iPhone 15, I would say from an iconic perspective, the iPhone five takes it.

But what's the most important iPhone? That's what we're talking about here, right? Like, we're building importance in some way and like, can you argue against the original? Yeah, but I think it's a combination of importance and also sort of like iconic design and the iPhone. And also, I mean, I could also make the point that the original iPhone didn't until you got to the iPhone 4, you couldn't even buy it on anything but AT&T in the US. So like the iPod, it actually had a big trajectory. Most important iPod was the original iPod 2 or was the iPod mini, maybe. But we picked the iPod 5th gen.

I think what we have to do is say, okay, we're honoring the iPhone and then it's sort of like, which of the designs do we feel is like the best to be represented here? And that's why I wouldn't pick the original iPhone as much as I love it too, because I don't think it's a representative. I think it was a, you know, I think there were better iPhones later. And I'd be fine depicting a modern iPhone here because I do, I, I do like the flat sided era better than I like the curved era. Yeah. I think. All right. So we have five spots on this list.

Why don't we put two iPhones on this for now and we can come back and revise this. I don't, I don't want to put two iPhones. Wow. Okay. And don't, I don't want to put two iPhones. You don't want to put two iPhones? I don't. Wow, okay. And so you, you're, you're, you would say the iPhone five, that's the one that you would. If you don't like the home button as an iconic representation of the iPhone, then we could, then I would propose a modern flat-sided iPhone of some sort.

No, I think, I think the iPhone five is the best possible representation of the history of the iPhone. It has enough elements of classic and modern design that it would work as a... If we want to pick an iPhone to represent all iPhones, my... And I would be happy to compromise on this, but my pick would be the original iPhone. That would be my. Just from like a historical perspective, I think the iPod and even to some extent, even the Max, whichever we end up choosing,

I think you're fine to pick like, what is the overall best representation of this product. But I just think as we were talking earlier, like the original iPhone was like the most important thing that has ever happened in technology. Yeah, but it was in some ways it was but it really was the original iPhone and the iPhone 3G and the iPhone 3GS and the iPhone 4 and the iPhone 5. And that's my original. It was probably the app store, right?

Which is not a thing. We're documenting today. You can't put the original iPhone on here in the fifth gen iPod. I'll put it that way. Like it's either they're both either, either then we're going all original into the original iPod, the original iPhone,

the original Mac and the original iPad. And then I don't even know what, then we'll get your Apple Watch edition in there or something. Or we say the premise here is that we're going to pick a representative of the product that we like aesthetically because the iPhone 5 is better aesthetically. What's with the fives too? Fifth generation iPod too. Let's keep going.

Let's keep with these two for now. Okay. And let's keep going. Because we're still trying to work out what the list even is even supposed to show. Yeah. I was gonna say the original Mac and the MacBook Air should go on.

I agree with the MacBook Air for sure. Well sure that was me putting your thing on the list. Yeah I agree with the MacBook Air for sure. But here's my counter right? Would you, obviously you've already put it on there so I feel like I know the answer but, original Mac over iMac G3? Yeah. Why? Yeah. I feel like, okay, to use your iPod and iPhone argument, especially the iPhone argument, it changed everything. It changed everything for Apple. It changed everything for the entire computer industry, the graphical interface. And that shape is iconic.

It is the kind of computer that belongs in a museum. So does the G3, it's true, but the original Mac, and it's got personality, it was the boot up icon forever, it represents the Mac in a way that I would say, even now, that shape, that classic shape, whether that's the original Mac or the SE30 or the classic, that shape represents the Mac in a way that the iMac G3 doesn't,

even though the iMac G3 is also an iconic and important product. You feel this is separate to the iPhone debate? I think so. My feeling is that the Mac has so many varied shapes that it deserves more place in the monument because there are so many different representations of the Mac. I you know that but then again I'm a Mac person and I remember how important those classic

Macs were and my first Mac was a classic shaped Mac. It was an SE. So for me, I think that that whole all in one, I think it goes fundamentally to the computer for the rest of us. The iMac G3 is a 90s take on the 80s classic original Mac design, right? The iPhone five, one of your things was it's design wise, the closest to what we have today. Right.

Which one out of the Mac and the G3 is closest to what we have today, do you think? That is not my argument though. Closest to what we have today is not my argument. Okay, so what is the argument for the five? My argument is that argument for the 5? I like the flat design better and they brought it back. If they hadn't brought it back

and we were still using the curvy bars of soap, I would still say the iPhone 5. Okay, so design wise, because I think it's a better design. Do you prefer the original Mac to the G3? As a piece of iconic design, I do, absolutely. Absolutely. It's more compact, it's less bulbous and deep

and all of those things and it's kind of adorable. And it's meant to be picked up with a handle. There's a handle on the G3 iMac, don't pick it up. Like it's very heavy and all that. But this is what I'm saying is the other difference here is all iPods look the same, other than the iPod touch which looks like an iPhone. iPods look the same, other than the iPod touch, which looks like an iPhone. All iPhones look the same. Macs don't look the same. They're very different. And that's why when I'm thinking about

depictions, I kind of want to depict some different Macs because they're they are very different shapes. The iMac G3 does not look like a modern Mac, nor does the original iMac. Neither of them looks like a modern Mac. The MacBook Air has to carry that. The MacBook Air is the representative of that. I mean, it's the Mac, really, right? The laptops are the Mac. From 2010 on, yeah, the Mac was the original Mac from 84 until 97. And then the iMac was the Mac from 97 until you know the early 2000s if not mid 2000s and then the the eventually the MacBook Air became the definitive Mac and has been for the last 15 years for sure and I'm not arguing I'm just saying see from your perspective the original Mac passes the

same test for the Mac as the iPhone 5 does for the iPhone? Like for the way you're thinking about this? Like what is the best representation of this product? I feel like there are the most iconic designs, but I think that the problem with the Mac is that there are so many different shapes of Mac. The Mac, how many shapes of iPhone have there been? You could argue one, right? And then it's all about like the sides being curved or not, but they're

all just rectangular slabs. The five is a little taller than the four. How many shapes of Mac have there been? Dozens, dozens of shapes because computers fundamentally take out more space, don't have to fit in a pocket, all of those things. And so I think the original Mac is an iconic original design, just like, yes, the original iPod kind of ushered that era in, but I'm willing to go.

But if you talk about the Mac being more refined later, like the iPod was refined in the fifth generation, I'll agree with that, but only so far. They made compact all-in-one Macs like the original Mac for a while. And some of them are really awful and ugly, like the Color Classic. But sorry, Color Classic fans, it's awful and ugly.

Rough times. But you can put the Classic in here. It's just a little slightly curvier and slightly flatter. You can put the SE in here that's got that kind of... I don't like the matte color classic. I don't like the way that looks. Pinstripe design, the color classic is bad. The regular classic looks fine, the first classic.

The SE is a great look. SE SE 30. And then there's the original. I just kind of feel like there needs to be an original style compact Mac on the list. What model it is actually doesn't matter to me at all. That it's the original is mostly kind of a default because it's a little bit simpler, but it could be a later model too. But I just feel like that shape is important. No, no, if we're doing this, it's the original. Like I just think that's the one. I just had

a thought. I'm so happy that I am on leave for the follow up for this episode. Oh yeah. It's going to be great. Yeah. I'm happy. I don't have to deal with the fallout of this. I'll send it. I'll send it all to you and I'll just immediately archive it. Cause my baby will care more about, uh, I can't save it. I'll save it for your first episode back and then we'll do the fall That might actually be pretty funny if you did that. Um All right, let's look where we are right now, right we have a list of five products We have the iPod fifth gen the iPhone 5 the original Mac and the MacBook Air

alright, so let's To me, I don't even really feel like I need to argue the MacBook Air at all. I don't think that there is... I just think that that computer is obvious, like that is an obvious thing to have. What else would we put on here? here. Well, the iPad. Yeah. And you could be taking Apple's oldest continuous product, the Mac, and sort of bisecting its eras into kind of original era and modern era, and then you'd have an iPod, an iPhone, and an iPad. And I do, okay, I don't think the Apple watch is important enough. I Agree, I agree my only my so here's the thing I think the goal here is we're going to showcase these products if the brief was that it's gonna be a person

Who is using Apple products? That's a different That's a different sculpture. And that one might have a Vision Pro and an Apple Watch, and we'd have to argue about which earbuds go in and all that, but that's not what it is. It's about the products. And I think the Apple Watch is not, because at its core, it's just that round wrecked watch.

And the Ultra's a little more interesting, but I just, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do it. I think I would put the iPad on before that. Yeah. It is an accessory. It's an accessory still. And sorry, sorry, services. You can't be depicted as in art. It's the chop that just keeps going on breaks through the statue and continues into the sky. Yeah. Yeah. Services can't, you can't be in the monument. That's not your place. Yeah, yeah. Maybe we could make the monument a service. Maybe you have to become a member to see the

monument. That's fair. That's Matt. It's called Moss monument as a service. I know you don't like the original argument. But I I think I think I would want the original iPad on this list. I'm fine with that. Over the M4 iPad Pro. The M4 iPad Pro is like the perfection, but like the original iPad I think would would maybe look better here.

Sure, I'm okay with that. So things that we're leaving out, stuff like the Vision Pro, the Apple Pencil, AirPods are not on here, which I'm fine with. The iPod Mini didn't make it and no Apple Watch made it. I think I feel pretty good about this list. Yeah, I should specify because we've been arguing the point. I would depict the Unibody tapered 2010 MacBook Air. Yes. Not the one with the fold down door correct which is not tapered and weird and one of its cores shut down when it was Slight when it was room temperature and not you weren't in a meat locker my brother got a skin burn from that Okay, mm-hmm on his leg. It's not great. I

Think he was playing a video game Uh-huh that would do it. He had that Mac. We'll bug them, something like that. We'll see. Replaced out twice on AppleCare, because it just kept dying. It was a mess. Yeah, that was a rough computer.

It was a mess. I've told you my story before. I had west-facing windows at Macworld at that point, and in the afternoon, the sun would shine in my office and it would get warmer, and the Mac would just Macbook Air would just stop working because it would shut down one of its two cores and it would get all janky and jerky and all that I literally couldn't use it because it was too hot in my office but work great in a meat locker. What's kind of incredible is like the original Macbook Air wedge shape terrible first version then became the Macbook Air. Well the first version wasn't a wedge the

first version wasn't a wedge it was the second version that was the MacBook Air. Well, the first version wasn't a wedge. The first version wasn't a wedge. It was the second version. That was the one I remember going to the event. It was a town hall. Yes. And they came out with the 11 and the 13 and it was the unibody wedge. And I was like, oh, they took the MacBook Air,

which was, I loved the original MacBook Air design because it was so light, but it was just not a good computer. And I remember walking out of that town hall briefing and thinking, Oh, they got it now. Yeah. But it, but it was kind of roundy and silver. Like it looked, they look similar, right? But the point I was going to make is like the original MacBook Air became the MacBook Air. And then the 12 inch MacBook became the new MacBook Air. Like it, it took another go and they like could make these computers that were

flawed in some way. They needed something to happen to make them work. I think I feel pretty good about this. This is the iPod 5th gen, the iPhone 5, the original Mac. and we'll mention the accessories I put on fifth gen with Earbuds. Yep, the iPhone 5 the original Mac with the mouse and you put the keyboard in there too But you know, it's all part of it but I want that mouse in there the 2010 MacBook Air and the original iPad as our Monument of the most so this will say underneath that on a little plaque, the most important Apple products and maybe say like mixed media or something, you know, the way that the sculpture's

being put together. Maybe, maybe. I don't even know about most important. It might just be like we may just let the audience decide what the meaning of this is now that we've. This has to be called something You know like the the chapter For example, it needs a name and we have been calling it most important for this entire episode

Jason we've got to live a die by the sword You know what I mean? Like we have to call it something and we're calling it this and then we'll just have to deal with we have to deal with it, you know, I Feel good calling this the most important Apple products with it, you know? I feel good calling this the most important Apple products, honestly. Like I feel good about it. Sure.

It'll get a colloquial name anyway and they won't call it that. They'll call it whatever they call it. Let the people decide. I think we both maybe would have an asterisk on this list and maybe yours would be the iPod and mine would be the iPhone, where I think maybe without the other one, we probably would have put a different product

on here. Right? Like I think I would put the original iPhone. I think you maybe put the original iPod. Yep. Yeah. But I think that's a good, these are good compromises for good reasons as to why we went with the fifth gen for both.

Yeah. Incredible. I think so. Take us home, Jason Snow. as to why we went with the fifth gen for both. Yeah. Incredible. I think so. Take us home, Jason Snow. That's it. You hosted a show. We did it. I've really enjoyed being a guest.

No, you got to do it. You got to do it. Take us home because you can promise things that I'll have to deliver. That's a great point. If you would like to send us in your feedback, your follow-up, your questions, your suggestions, the places that we got this wrong. If you would like to make this out of clay and send us an image, go to upgradefeedback.com and you can do all of that. I want to thank our members who support us every week of Upgrade Plus. I'd like to give an additional thank you to our members

because you continue to support me while I'm on paternity leave. So thank you so much. I have a couple of other products that I want to mention, and we're going to do that in Upgrade Plus today. You can go to getupgradeplus.com, you get longer ad-free episodes each and every week. You can find us on YouTube by searching for Upgrade Podcast. You can watch us with our hands on our faces for this entire episode as we try and make the decisions that we're making. I want to thank our sponsors for helping make this episode possible.

But most of all, thank you for listening and Jason, thank you for holding the show while I'm away caring for my child. All right, say goodbye, Mike Hurley. Goodbye, Mike Hurley. What? What? What?