Upgrade - 560: Thank All the Daddies

Episode Date: April 21, 2025

From Relay, this is Upgrade episode number 560, recorded Monday, April the 21st, 2025. It's brought to you this week by Squarespace, Delete Me, and Ecamm. I am one of your classic Upgrade co-hosts, Jason Snell. And of course, as you know, since Mike Hurley and his lovely wife had a baby, we've been cycling through many, many guests over the last eight weeks. And I would just like to introduce the latest in a long string of fathers to appear next to me on the Upgrade program. It's Michael Hurley. Hello.

Hi, Mike. Welcome to Upgrade. I'm back, I'm back. Thank you so much, Jason Snow. I'm back as a host, not as a guest. I actually wanna do some fatherly advice, but we don't have time for that right now because we have a Snow Talk question and it's coming to us from Sam. Oh, this feels so good.

I feel like I'm slipping into a comfortable glove right now. This comes from Sam who says, "'Milk chocolate or dark chocolate, Jason, where do you stand a white chocolate? Wow. Wow. These are the serious questions for stealth talk. I'm back baby.

Sam, dark chocolate, 100%, well not 100% chocolate, dark, but like 70. Jesus, 100% dark chocolate. That would kill you, but like 70%. But I am a dark chocolate that's like, there's always dark chocolate in our refrigerator. Dark chocolate is the answer. Um, yeah, like 70%, something like that. White chocolate.

I love it. I don't, I mean, it's not like chocolate, but I do love it. And in fact, yesterday was Easter. And my story is that my mother always used to buy, uh, and put in my Easter basket, a white chocolate bunny for Easter. And I've come to like white chocolate and I had some white chocolate yesterday, which was Easter. Our Whole Foods has a Tony's Chocolonely. Oh, the best chocolate.

White, and it has a white chocolate, they have a white chocolate bar. So every now and then I will buy a white chocolate bar knowing that my wife will not eat it. I like their milk chocolate with sea salt toffee. Like that's a really good one. They got a bunch of good ones. I wanted to ask you actually, I think you've kind of answered it, but I don't know if it's the same.

So here in the UK, Easter is very egg focused, like large chocolate eggs. Do you have those in America? Is that like a thing? I think we do, but I don't think it's a thing like it is in the UK. It's not the thing. You guys are so far ahead of us on chocolate and candy in general. Just so far ahead of us.

But yeah, you can get chocolate eggs and big chocolate eggs and like I said, chocolate bunny. And then, you know, there's the Easter egg hunt, which is an actual egg that has died, you know, eggs that are died or... An egg that... It's like, oh no, the egg is dead. The egg has died. The egg is dead.

That one is gone and we've got to find it. RIP egg, RIP Easter egg. No, we used to get plastic eggs and put like jelly beans in them and hide those in our yard for our kids. And we did that instead. Because nobody wants to find an egg, like a real egg five months later.

That's really gross. Admission, by the way, we have actually found a plastic egg with jelly beans real egg five months later, that's really gross. Admission, by the way, we have actually found a plastic egg with jelly beans in it five months later. That totally happened, really hidden well. So yeah, it's a thing, but I think not like in the UK. If you would like to send in a Snow Talk question for us to use on a future episode of the show, please go to upgradefeedback.com

and send that in. Favily Advice was a segment that I very much welcomed while I was away. Oh, hooray. And I would like, with your permission, I would like to do the for now final Favily Advice segment myself, if that's okay. Excellent. Let's do it. I would like to use this as an opportunity to thank all the daddies for, I shouldn't

have said that, for filling in. Thank you podcast daddies, wherever you are. I genuinely want to thank all of the guest hosts that you brought in. I absolutely loved being a listener of the show. I've listened to every episode. I looked forward to it every week. I'm actually genuinely kind of sad

That I don't keep getting that show. So anybody out there who's like, oh man Mike's back Well Mike's also losing the show. All right, like he had a show that he liked and it's gone away now I know most of all though Jason. Thank you so much for holding down the fort. It's been a Way of my mind. I haven't had to think about it at all and I've just got to enjoy the show So thank you for that. It's great a weight off my mind. I haven't had to think about it at all. And I've just got to enjoy the show. So thank you for that. It's great. Of course. This is a very me focused episode today because I have, I wanted to share some of my experiences of the last couple of months for our listeners.

And also I have lots of thoughts about the last two months. And I haven't, I haven't been able to put them anywhere, but I thought I would give people an update on my parenting journey. So our wonderful daughter Sophia was born a week early on the 22nd of February. It was a big surprise to us. We were not expecting that to happen. We had been told it wouldn't happen. And like two days before, you know, it had a last checkup and like, you've got ages to

go. That did not happen. I was awoken at like three o'clock in the morning. It was the whole thing. This is an important first lesson about parenting. Right there, there's your first lesson, which is anything can happen at any time. So it was a very exciting day.

My wife was incredible and handled it like a champion. And we couldn't have been happier with everything that she managed to do for us and our family that day. But then we've had the last eight weeks, and the baby's been here for the full eight weeks, which is lovely, because I was originally gonna be taking my first week

of parental leave to kind of get the house ready. So the house also was not ready. But yeah, being a parent so far has been very hard. It's tough. I think the way that I would describe it in the beginning, at least, it's probably always like this to a degree, but I think I assume most in the beginning and actually has gotten easier is that being a parent of a newborn takes literally everything you've got. Like whatever energy you have, it will take it. And that means some days it's better

than others, but it's always a hundred percent of what you have. And you learn things about yourself that you didn't know. And you learn things about your partner that you didn't know. And you see different sides of each other that you didn't know existed. Good and bad, I think. Because you've never been put in that particular kind of adversity before. Yes, under that kind of sleep deprivation, under that kind of pressure.

So I was very thankful for fatherly advice. But what I will say, because there's a weird thing, and I think all parents do this is kind of what I've experienced so far, which is like, it's very easy to focus on the tough parts and the negative parts when people ask you what it's like to be a parent, especially in the beginning. Like I've gotten this experience from talking to other parents and also just noticing it in myself. So I've been thinking about like, how do I describe the better side

of this picture, right? And there are so many ways to say it and there's so many ways I've heard people say it. But the way that is the easiest to get across to me is the thing that is clearest to me of being a dad is that my life in general is happier now than it ever has been in the past. Because I have this whole new thing,

this whole new part of my life that gives me immense joy that didn't exist before. Like there was no child, this is a whole new thing. Like, you know, I've heard people say like, like I think like a sweet and kind of corny way of saying it is your heart grows larger. And like, that's kind of what I'm getting at of like, there is just this whole new range of emotions and feelings towards something that didn't exist before. And it's like, when you have a partner, you may have had a partner in the past, right?

So you may love that person more, you may love that person differently, but you've experienced that kind of thing maybe many times once you've gotten to be an adult. But this is just like, the love that I have for my daughter is love that I've never had for anything. And the way that she makes me feel and the happiness that she gives me is a happiness I've never experienced before. So my overall level of happiness as a person has increased to further than and to a level that it's never been so that's kind of the like the little sweet thing that I wanted to say I guess. Joseph wrote in and said which fatherly advice resonated most with me and so I wanted to I went to shout out everyone's was incredible

right but there were there was two that hit me hardest. One was what Syracuse said about not feeling bad, about negative things. And like, if you're in negative feelings, and if things aren't going the way that you want. In the first six weeks, we had some really tough days and some very like, everything's fine, but we had some real difficulty in that time. And so hearing John say that like, it's okay to not feel like happy, or like, that you don't feel like things are perfect and it's okay, like that was very helpful for me. And also what Underscore said about parenting not just having one solution, that there are different paths. And even if sometimes it feels like you can't find what you're looking for, you'll get there in the end. You just can give yourself some grace to do it. They really helped me at a time when I really needed them. And so

I'm very happy that they exist. I would also like to just take this moment in public to just give a special shout out to Underscore David Smith. He has been so helpful to me in the past couple of months, including driving my baby home from the hospital. So I just wanted to say, I'm very lucky to have Underscore and he's the best. And I felt like I just want to embarrass him on the show by saying lovely is and Then my fatherly advice would you like it? You like it. Take as much time off as you can take off is is what I would say

It was really interesting to me The response that I had to like the eight weeks that I've taken off where there were people that were contacting me or like leaving comments on YouTube videos and stuff and saying like, Oh, that's nothing like, which is wild to me. Like I saw enough time. That's a very long amount of time. I think like, I think like in the UK, we have a pretty good, um, structure of like vacations, you know, we take way more vacations than my friends in America do. I've never heard of anybody in my life taking that amount of time off for paternity leave. It's very typical here and like a lot of

dads in our parenting groups, they would basically take two weeks that they could get and then they would maybe take another couple of weeks more to kind of like top it up out of their kind of vacation leave. So I was very happy with my eight weeks and I'm very thankful for everyone that enabled it and I'm very thankful for the listeners. But I would just say that you should take as much time as you can. You don't need to take as much time as anybody else, but you take as much time as you can because you're going to need it, your partner is going gonna need it and you'll never be able to take enough So just do whatever you can in your life when this happens to you if this happens to you

Take as much time off as you can. So Thank you for listening to my segment of fatherly advice All right, you know that that I'm glad this was a sort of a made-up segment So they all are Jason all the segments are laid up. Oh Right? You know, that, that, I'm glad this was a sort of a made up segment. So. They all are Jason, all the segments are made up. Oh, we can do whatever we want? Have you not realized that by now? I thought I was in a strict structure of, I did,

honestly, and I know you probably faced this too. Sometimes building the show week to week, I'd be like putting everything in segment boxes. And then I feel like I'm just a person who is, I would be doing the week, I'd be like putting everything in segment boxes. And then I feel like I'm just a person who is still, I would be doing the show and I'd be like, let us move to the next segment now. And it was very much like we're now a robot that goes from box to box. Putting your show together is macro data refinement is what it is. Oh, I see.

You're just taking the, all of the topics and you're putting them into the categories just based on how they make you feel. That is the show. This show is mysterious and important. It sure is. Speaking of which, you have some follow-up that you've demanded. I do. Well, I mean, again, it's from the show I was putting together

and I was looking at all the feedback and so there was follow-up and you know, it's a thing. So I heard from a few people in academia because I talked about John Gianandrea from Apple as being kind of academic. And it was not entirely negative. I think people get what I was trying to say. Friend of the show, Kieran Healy, made a very funny joke about, I resemble that remark essentially about some of the stuff.

And the point being that maybe an academic approach to, and a research approach to AI is not a bad thing for Apple to have, but that it's not the same as that cold, hard, steely-eyed, we got to ship something kind of approach and that maybe having an academic group that is doing the research and R&D, you know, kind of stuff. And then there's the group that is dedicated to ship, that those having, you know, those be in different places is probably a good idea. I did kind of conflate that with not invented here syndrome where the idea that Apple didn't wanna do it,

use anybody else's model, they're proud of their own model and they wanted to use their own model. And Kieran quite rightly said that, ideally in the academic world, that is not a problem. Everybody builds on everybody else's work. It's very collegial and collaborative. And I think that's fair. Um, but anyway, I wasn't trying to run down academics and academia at all.

They're having a tough time right now in the United States. I would just say, uh, there's a difference. Like it's a different job and having more professorly academic type people try suddenly pressed into trying to ship a product. I mean, I think this is one of the core problems that Apple has faced with AI is they were viewing it as this kind of like, well, we'll do our research and things will bubble up and we'll put them in products and it'll be nice. And then they had that, oh no moment with chat GPT. And like the people, their AI researchers were not the

people to put, to ship products in a timely fashion. It's not their job. It's not their job. And so there's a disconnect in sort of how Apple structured it, but I'm not trying to run down academia. That's not, that wasn't my point at all. Jason heard from the academics. A little bit.

I expect that in a few months, there'll be some peer reviewed papers about me, but for now, anyway, Kieran was great. And I appreciate it. And I heard, like I said, okay, I have some e-reader follow-up. I really enjoyed Scott's fatherly advice thing about having to watch a video not to shake the baby. And he said, did you see that video?

I have no memory of that. But John Gruber texted us both and said, I saw that video too. So I guess it's a Pennsylvania thing. I don't know. I didn't see the video, but they, they, they made sure to give that. They had made sure we understood that before we left the hospital. They gave that concept. I heard from somebody who said that they got it in a fortune cookie.

Like the fortune cookie said, don't shake the baby. Whoa. Uh, it's out there anyway. It's important. It is. It's, it's, it's, it's really important. Can I just say about, about the Scott episode actually real quick? Yeah. I loved it.

I love Scott McNulty. I just wanted to say that. Like, I feel like this was a conversation we had. I don't remember when the show on our way. I said, make it the last episode before I come back. So people want me I come back. So people want me to come back. I think it might have been an upgrade plus we were talking about that.

But I genuinely really enjoyed the episode. So I just want to put that out there. Yeah, the idea that we would do an episode devoted to e-readers and you're like, make that the last one because e-readers will not, it will not be the thing that says I would like this. Who cares about Mike? Let's just have this. That said, Scott, yeah, Scott is great and he's very funny and he's sort of dryly funny and I always say on the incomparable that like he won't talk for

a long time and he's just in the bushes and then he just emerges with a, with a one line that is hilarious. And then it's like, he's a sniper of comedy. It's, it's just great. Maybe like the listeners, me being one of them, had a different experience of the episode than you did because there were so many funny things he was saying very quietly while you were talking.

And I don't know if you were hearing them, right? Cause I know I get this, like, you know, with the delay and stuff. Well, because I was watching the video cause I was trying to monitor all my guests to make sure they were okay. I got to, and that's Scott. I mean, it's great.

So we theorized about what if you put an accelerometer in an e-reader and did like a tap on it to change the page and you wouldn't need buttons. It turns out, this is amazing, the new Kindle Colorsoft and the paper white, new paper white signature edition only have accelerometers in them as well as light sensors. So the signature edition is actually, even though it's just, it's a paper white with a slightly different edition, it's actually different hardware because it's got an accelerometer and a light sensor in it. They both received a software update last month that adds the ability to turn the page

by double tapping on the side of the back of the Kindle. So I got one of the paperwhite signatures and I'm going to try this out and I'll report back at some point somewhere about whether I like that. But I like the idea that there is someone at Amazon, at least on some of these projects that is trying to make a way to tap that does not require you to put your finger on the screen. So that's cool. I am it is under investigation. Now referring to our previous point about how everybody feels about me and Scott talking about e-readers for 20 minutes, listener Billow wrote in and said the McNulty episode was so good. e-reader talk is fun. I'm not joking at all. Scott's particularly dry humor is always on point." And Derek wrote in and said, I loved every minute of Jason's hosting duties

these last few months, but it's only been 10 minutes of this e-reader conversation and my goodness, I need Mike back ASAP. And we serve the whole spectrum of audience. Eight weeks to get to that piece of feedback that you wanted. Hey, this takes all kinds. And then Will wrote in in and said one of the features that I really appreciate about my cobo Clara BW is the ability to load new fonts. I'm kind of a font dork and have opinions about how book text should look Jason do you switch up the fonts on your e-readers? Did you have a preference for a specific default font? I do these days for the last few years. I do Geneva Sorry, Georgia do Geneva, sorry, Georgia, not Geneva, Georgia.

I find Georgia is a very pleasing book font for me anyway. And on devices that don't have it, like I got that Kindle Paperwhite Signature Edition, and it doesn't have Georgia on it. And so, you know, you plug it in and you drag Georgia into the fonts folder and then it has Georgia. So, but that's the good news is it used to be really hard to deal with fonts on e-readers and now it's very easy. You can attach them and drag fonts into them and it just works, which is really nice. So that's my answer to that. And that

Mike is e-reader follow-up for today. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace, the all-in-one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just getting started or scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your offerings of a professional website, grow your brand and get paid all in one place. You can make the most of Blueprint AI with Squarespace. This is their AI enhanced website builder that lets you quickly and easily build a site bespoke to your business.

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you'll save 10% of your first purchase of a website or domain. That is squarespace.com slash upgrade and the offer code upgrade to get 10% of your first purchase and show your support for the show. A thanks to Squarespace for their support purchase and show your support for the show. Our thanks to Squarespace for their support of this show and all of Relay. So shall we score the paternity draft?

Oh, let's, let's do it. So before I went away, I think it was the last episode before I went away, except for the one that we pre-recorded, the monument one. We drafted a selection of things that we thought could happen over the, like, the intervening eight weeks. And I thought we could also use this as an opportunity for me to, there's like, I have things, I have things I want to say about the things that have happened. We'll get to some of them here. How are you feeling? How were you feeling about the draft before, before, as it was going on?

I mean, I've had eight weeks. It happened very quickly. There was a week in there where it all exploded, where there were things that you picked almost by accident that worked. The Hail Mary, which wasn't intended to be, was the iPad Air getting a chip upgrade, which was an incorrect pick for me. I didn't mean that pick, but I made it. And I felt, when I saw that press release come through,

whatever day that was, I felt like a god, honestly. It felt great. That was good. That was a good feeling. Yeah, no, that was it. And then I made some guesses about the MacBook Air that were wrong, and that was pretty much, it was wrapped at that point. It was pretty much wrapped up.

So that's week two. Well, that Monument episode went point. It was pretty much wrapped up. So that's week two. Well, that monument episode went out. I was in Hawaii and there was a moment, I think I texted you where I got my Apple briefing by the pool or I guess I was in the hotel room and then I wrote the story by the pool. But it was that reveal of what was gonna be in the M4 MacBook Air and I was like, oh, it's over.

Right, like at that point it was over, which is great because that Scott McNulty episode, we'd been tied that Scott McNulty episode would have been 40 minutes long in order for me to win the tie break. Sure. But unfortunately that wasn't necessary. And so at that point I, I, it was, it was over cause you got the leg up with that iPad air and then the next week, uh, my MacBook air picks were wrong.

And then I think, so well done. Don't leave the banner where it is. I think in some ways the misses are even more interesting. We made some assumptions about things that just didn't happen, sometimes for some very dramatic reasons. So yeah, it's a good way to kind of get you back into the swing of things after eight weeks out.

Do you want to run through the points real quick? Sure. I scored a four to two. Okay. The ones you got right, low-end iPhone has a notch. M4 MacBook Air has upgraded webcam. iPad Air gets an M3 or an M4 chip and Apple doesn't ship improved Siri and personal context to customers. Yeah, I missed out on Apple home device. And there were two picks I had about that. And also the M2 MacBook Air would remain, which it did not.

Right. And what I got right is low end iPhone has an action button and low end iPhone is not called iPhone SE. That was not a bad pick. That was one that I wasn't a hundred percent sure of. Naming is always mysterious. But what I got wrong, okay, I got the base model iPad supporting Apple Intelligence wrong. Nope. There's a level below which they will not go. Incredible that they did that. I really was very surprised about that.

Still doesn't support Apple Intelligence. Just can't support Apple until it just can't do it. They just can't do it. Again, it's one of those things where you get beaten down enough by past like hope and dreams that failed that you stop dreaming. I predicted the same color names for the M4 MacBook Air. And of course we got Sky Blue, the least blue blue ever blued.

I predicted the base price of the M4 era at 1099. What a wonderful surprise to have it be 999. I mean, this is again, you're going to hear some takes that have already been said, but I'm going to say them again. Uh, the best thing about that MacBook Air is the price, that 999. And that it is, it's really sorted out the laptop line in a great way. And I'm, I was doubtful that they would ever go back to that as like the, the best kind of like the best MacBook, I,

the one that is the newest would be the cheapest and you know, the in the lineup. So I'm very happy that they've gotten back to that point again, that the MacBook Air, the cheapest MacBook Air that you just go to Apple's website and buy is actually the new one. I just think that's wonderful. Very happy about that. Yeah, it sure makes it easy. I think I've said a few times in the last eight weeks or last six weeks that it's really nice to be able to just say get the M4 MacBook Air and there's no ifs. That is the default Mac recommendation for almost anybody at this point.

And you will feel good recommending it. Like your Apple home device. I went in on those rumors that there's an air tag to coming. It probably still is coming, but it hasn't come yet. Um, and then this one is really funny. I, if it was close, I could kind of make an argument, but I, my heart wouldn't be in it, which is there is a controversy about the speeds and capabilities of an Apple-built modem. So they did introduce the C1 in the new 16e iPhone, and to my knowledge, there has been no

controversy about it, which I find really interesting. There have been stories... I think I saw something about Bluetooth, but it seemed like it didn't go anywhere. So this is it. There have been some stories about the dynamics of the modem, but they have not been controversial. They've just been kind of like, oh, this is what happened, which is not what I expect. I think this is a great news for Apple, by the way,

that there haven't been any, because you never know. The Bluetooth story, there's stories around there about like, how does it handle Bluetooth and all that, but like the Bluetooth is not the cell modem, right? It's a different part. So I think I, that, that would have been my claim, like in an alternate version of this, where, where I needed that point to win the draft, I'd be like, Oh, there was that Bluetooth story.

And I think you would rightly respond by saying, oh, there was that Bluetooth story. And I think you would rightly respond by saying, well, that's not really what you were talking about with the cellular modem. Yeah. I mean, I genuinely don't know if the C one has Bluetooth in it. I mean, it might, I mean, that might be. I don't think it does. I think they're doing something else for that. Okay. They have, okay. Cause they, I think maybe they have their own Bluetooth chip too, but it's not that.

Bluetooth and wifi I think is a separate chip that they are doing to replace Broadcom, and I don't know if it's in this one or not, but it's not the C1, I think. But it doesn't matter because it's 4.2, very easy, and I've had six weeks. And I mean, bottom line is you got a shot in the dark right, and I had a vision for what that is you got a shot in the dark right. And I had a vision for what that M4 Air was gonna be that was no big changes, same colors, same price. And that didn't happen. And that was it, it was over.

And I mean, for me as well, like I assumed that we'd have the home device, which I mean, the rumors suggest that we don't have the home device because of Apple intelligence delays, which is like a very funny thing to have occurred. Like that there's kind of this collateral damage in this whole new product category that Apple apparently is trying to make. I would say on the Apple intelligence stuff, even though I thought it was going to happen, it is still

shocking to me that it happened and it happened in the way that it did. And that the exact way in which Apple did it in like giving this statement to a few outlets and then, and now, you know, there's been story after story over the last few weeks of them, like slowly kind of rolling things back, right? Like changing billboards, the website says different wording now that's like, I think something built for Apple intelligence or something like that. Like, well, you know, and they're really having to undo this, just a unnecessary mess that they put themselves in. Um, I think of the way in which they went around about it, because I mean, also there are more and more stories coming out about like these, it was pure demo, right? The features that they got rid of, they were never working anywhere. It's like they didn't need to do that, right? They could have just, to tick a box, they could have

shipped, they could have said they were going to ship what they actually shipped and could have just left it at that. And we would have said they were behind, but would it have made a difference in the long run? I don't know. It shows the level of vulnerability they felt, that they thought they needed to do that because they really needed to show that thing off that was not ready. That wasn't surprising. I think all of us took it like, John Gruber when he was on here used the word bamboozled.

Obviously, that led a few days later to the piece he wrote about something in is rotten and Cupertino. But like, I think a lot of us. Like that portion of the demo was all in future tense of the presentation was all. I remember at the time thinking, Whoa, we've entered Siri world and it's all now like in the future, Siri will do this. was all, I remember at the time thinking, whoa, we've entered Siri world and it's all now like in the future, Siri will do this. And it wasn't like, it does this thing

and it does this thing. It was suddenly in the future, and I had an alarm bell go off at that point. And I know we talked about it, that suddenly it felt much more tenuous that stuff than the other stuff. It also felt like the potentially coolest stuff, which I think those all go together. Yeah. I mean, again,

we were talking about on the show, it's difficult when you're getting information that's just reports on reports. But the reports of it basically being that this stuff was just never working. If that is the case, that is the difficult part. Because when we saw that, I think my assumption, and I would assume most of our assumptions

were they will maybe get to this, it might be late, or maybe it won't work so well. I don't know how many people were like, this is pure concept, right? Because we give them, and we have given Apple, I think rightly, a lot of benefit of the doubt in the past because they deliver, right? They do deliver. Unlike a lot of their competitors, they do it because they tend to just show things when they're ready, right? Unlike a lot of competitors like Google, right?

Google, the I.O., are constantly showing things that never ever ship They give tons of time to features that never ship or they keep showing them year after year Like there's a running joke on the verge cast of how many times in Google IO They have shown the ability to remove a chain-link fence from an image Like it's been a demo they have done Multiple times that you're like taking a picture of your kid remove a chain link fence from an image. Like it's been a demo they have done multiple times that you're like taking a picture of your kid playing baseball and there's a chain link fence

in front of them and you could remove the chain link fence. This is a demo that Google have done multiple times as if it's a new thing that they have done and it's never actually a thing that has become available. And so this is what they do, but Apple don't do that, right? Like there are features that get delayed, right? There are features that maybe aren't good when they ship.

But, and look, that may still happen for this, but I do believe this is different and that they are now potentially trying to build a feature based on a demo they gave, which is not the way around these things should go. And I see how they got there, but they shouldn't have. And I think I heard, I think it was on dithering, uh, John and Ben Thompson were talking about, like, this is one of the problems with prerecorded videos that if you're not put in a position where you have to

demo it live, you can kind of fake it. Which they obviously faked it, right? That was fake. And if they were put in a position where they demoed it on stage, you can still fake it, but I think you're less likely to fake it in that scenario. My only thought about that is that you could still fake it. You could still play a video about, here's something we've got planned for

Siri that you're going to see next spring. Like I think even, I don't believe that the live event, a live event would preclude that. It makes it a little harder and a little more obvious. I think it draws a line, an important line, right? When we're like, here's a bunch of stuff I'm showing you that I'm doing. Here's something we're working on. I think that there is a clearer line to see there rather than just like, hey, look at this thing we're doing

and we're shipping this thing later. It's like, they're on the same level. We just have a timeframe in mind rather than like, we want to show you this feature. We don't want to show you this feature. We don't want to show you this feature. Like Craig is not going to stand up there and ask his phone when his mom's flight arriving because he's just not going to give him that information. Right.

And there's a, I agree with that. I think that it's a difference not in, Oh, Apple wouldn't do this if it was a live event, it's more that it would be clearer. What was real and what was not in a live event. I do agree with that. I also think that we can draw a line between having code that is buggy and not ready to ship. And when they demo it, they're worried it'll crash from not having code. At all.

Right? Yeah. Although, I mean, you could argue that if in a live event, they could have, they could have wired up something fake and shown it. I don't know. It is, it is, uh, I think very clear about what Apple's mindset was last year at WWDC that they felt so desperate essentially that they announced a feature that they didn't really even have.

And they kind of hoped that they would get there. Uh, which, which brings us to next WWDC and what their mindset is going to be going into that one. What is your take now on the iOS redesign potentially being a really big thing of WWDC? Uh, it sounds like it's happening and it sounds, it sounds pretty good to me. I mean, one of the things that I think we talked about while you were gone is. I don't buy the narrative that like they did vision OS and now they're going to put it everywhere.

I really, and I've not heard anything to the contrary. I really believe that they had a long ongoing OS refresh design, refresh plan. And I actually am excited about it for the potential of it because I feel like what has happened over the last 10 years has been that everything has kind of drifted. And a lot of the stuff that's happened on the Mac has been taking the existing Mac design and sort of like shunting changes into it from iOS that aren't a great match. And if they do it right, I love the idea that they spent a few years thinking of a new design language

across their operating systems. And if they did it right, that means that they thought about the Mac in the context of the Mac, and they thought about the iPhone and the iPad in their context. And the design is meant to move and change. They don't have to be identical,

but they should be part of the same kind of family across all those devices, including the Vision Pro. I like that as an idea. I mean, it's all down to the execution and that's the problem, but that's true of everything. But I like the idea that after all this time and with all these platforms that they've got, that there might've been a design team inside Apple working on a design system

for all their devices, rather than taking individual devices with individual designs and then trying to push out like hacks and changes to make them more alike. That's not the same as saying, okay, we have the new Apple 2025 design language that we're building that will present itself in some different ways. And then the other thing that I keep saying, I hear versions of this on other podcasts or I yell at other podcasts that don't say this is, I hear people say, oh, well, they, you know, I hope they don't go too far. And

I gotta be honest, I hope they go too far. I want them to go too far. They gotta go too far and then scale it back. And then you pull it back. The best redesigns go too far. They go too far because they wanna push it because you don't know what works and what doesn't. So you push it and then you back off of it.

And that means people will scream when it's unveiled and they'll be like, oh my God, it's like, and then it will take maybe even a year and everybody will go, oh boy, they really are correcting some of the flaws. And it's like, you know, I think that's just part of the design process is you go a little too far and then you back it off. And that's, I'm looking, I'm actually kind of looking forward to that. Yeah. It's like whatever year it was, they changed Safari. I think it's like iOS 15 or something. Obviously it went too far. They put it back. Safari is great. Now, like what we're left with, you know, the navigation bar being at the bottom, a lot of

the restructuring around Safari, you know, getting rid of that like tab view where it was like a Rolodex, just like a, just a crazy way to show tabs in a web browser. Like it really, it, they only got to that because they went too far, right? With like the floating bar being over the content and all that kind of stuff. And so yeah, they should get there. The thing that I keep coming back to is I don't, I am not sure. And I keep changing my opinion on this. So whether this is the right time to do this or not, like is 2025 the right time for a system,

full system redesign. I'm not sure if it is or it isn't. Like I think if you are worried that you won't get your AI stuff together in time, this might be good because it's a good distraction, right? But if you're trying to get your AI stuff together, are you maybe splitting your resources in a way that aren't great, internally and externally?

How many things are we asking our developers and our third party developers to do at the same time? Are you getting ready for AI and also redesigning your entire application? Also, everybody thinks back to, we've been around for long enough, obviously you think back to iOS 7, it was the last time they did this, right? It was actually the only time they did this. Where, and you know, design is, design evolved from iPhone OS 1 to iOS 7, and then from, you know, and it has evolved from 7 to what will be 18. but 6 to 7, undeniable, completely different, right? And if that's what we're doing now, interesting, but developers were much more keen in 2013

to do this kind of stuff, I think. In general, companies, both big and small, had a very different relationship and feeling towards the iPhone than they do now. And I'm just not sure having seen like the way that Vision OS went and a bunch of other stuff has gone in the last couple of years with Apple and the developer community. Are they going to get the buy-in that they're going to want? I just don't know the answer to that at all. I think the problem is, I think even if the answer is no, and even if the answer to, is

this a great time to do this, is no, it's never going to be yes. Do you build an entire new design system to unify your different platforms? It's a once in a decade thing that you do. And then hold it, hoping that in a year or two, the developers are a little less angry with you and that the AI problems blow over. I feel like you almost don't. My fear is that there are features that, you know, there are developers, because like the designers are designers, it's fine.

The developers though have to implement this. Any changes that have to implement this new design, that's work they're doing that they're not working on something else. But at the same, and so that's not ideal, but I think a lot of the core developers are not worried about it. A lot of the core problems that Apple has are not there. A lot of the core problems Apple has with developers aren't third party developers aren't there.

And you do need to do it at some point. In fact, I would argue at some point. And maybe that point is already passed or maybe it's coming soon. These designs, these UIs for these operating systems are all so fractured because the moment you roll out a new thing and then everything is a tweak after that. And after a while, all you have is a collection of tweaks and they're inconsistent and it's hard to do anything else and it all falls apart. So you do have to do this periodically. Like it's not, I hear people say, Oh, it's

just a, a redesign because there always has to be a redesign, uh, it for style, for, for fashion. It's not, it's more than that, it's for functionality. Like you can't- If it was for fashion, it's a problem because this fashion's 10 years old now, right? Like if you're thinking of it like that. It's true, but you know, people are like, oh, you're just changing it

because of the aesthetics need to be refreshed and all that. But it's like, and that's true, but it's not the only reason. It's also because, I mean, I participated in so many magazine and website redesigns over my career, let me just say, like, this is how it goes. Everything is compromised because it's been out there so long. And people will say, Why doesn't it do this? Or like, why does this Mac

thing behave so weird and look like iOS? And a lot of times the answer is because everything is patched together off of that original design. And the best solution is wipe the slate clean, do a new thing. If they do it really well, ideally the third party developers will see some benefit in it. It won't be a huge amount of new work, although it will still be new work. Keep in mind that since Apple's last major one of these, they also rolled out Swift and Swift UI, which is sort of the future of platform development for a lot of this stuff. Presumably this will work better with that as well. Oh, and also like the,

I mean maybe for Swift, just for whoever, definitely for the iOS 7 2013-2014 design era time, Apple's priorities as a company for what they, what products they care about has changed. Like we were starting the beginning of we don't care about macOS in 2013, 2014. That's not the way it is now. And so how much consideration was put into macOS when they were going through the last kind of system redesigns? Also you know how they tell us, oh, every chip we make, every Apple Silicon chip we make, we know what products it's going in.

Like they design the chips and the products together, that's part of their secret sauce. Well, I have a hard time believing given the rumors that Mark Gurman has about touchscreen MacBook Pro, foldable something that might be a Mac or an iPad. I would imagine, like let's take touch. I would imagine if they know that a touchscreen MacBook Pro is coming next year,

or the year after, that this design takes that into account, right? Like that's part of what you do, is taking it rather than it being kind of like, ooh, how do we hack the Mac OS interface? Like think about it upfront, make those decisions upfront. You'll get a better result. Not everybody's gonna like it,

but I think you will get a better result if you do that. So, I mean, I guess my answer to your question is, there's never gonna be a good time. And yeah, developers are gonna be cranky about it. But honestly, even then, I think with those developers, if it means that they don't adopt the new design stuff for a year, they'll do it eventually because they'll do an update and it's an iPhone app

and they'll want it to look like the iPhone. There are not a lot of iPhone apps out there that look like iOS 6 with the kind of like gray toolbar. Eventually they all kind of like do it. And at some point you got to rip the bandaid off. You really do, because there's never gonna be a good time, I think is kind of do it. And at some point you gotta rip the Band-Aid off, you really do, because there's never gonna be a good time, I think is. Is this a good time?

No, but there's never gonna be a good time. I really hope they do a good job with this because I hope that it actually encourages developers to have something fun to work on, right? That like Apple give people something, like an opportunity to do something fun to work on, right? That like Apple give people something like an opportunity to do something fun. Design is fun, even if you're not good at it. Like it is working at how something looks and playing around with how something looks and feels. That is

a fun job to do. And I really hope that they come up with something that's nice and is relatively easy for people to implement from a basic level, you know? And I think the difference is they have SwiftUI now, which they didn't have before, that might make it easier for people if they're trying to implement this stuff. So that could be interesting at least. And if you're a developer, if it's done well, you get to benefit from Apple's designers and you get to make a new, cool looking version of your app based on Apple's new design standards without having to do the, you know, design work yourself in a lot of cases.

Like I'm not saying that it's easy and that it's a couple of buttons, but I'm saying that there is, there is benefit to having, uh, you know, having that, if it's done well on your side, essentially to create a new version of your app too, that's shiny and new and feels like the modern iOS or Mac OS or whatever there is, there could be something to that. You don't have to work out the concepts, right? Like, you know, you let Apple do the concepts and then you can implement them in the way that makes sense for your app. Ideally.

Yeah. Uh, yeah. The iPadOS becoming more Mac-like things, that Mark Gurman quote, productivity multitasking app window management. Hey, I'm going to say this. Sure. This is nothing. Everyone's getting excited about this. This is nothing. This is nothing.

No. If this is what it is, it's nothing because what goes in that window? The fundamental problem with the iPad is not how you move windows around. It's like what's in the window? What's the software in the window? What's it capable of? If you can move windows around more freely, that does make it operate more like a Mac. I think people are focusing too much on the, oh, is it going to be like a Mac now?

No. on the like, oh, is it going to be like a Mac now? Like, no, I think Mark just means you can just move the apps around in Sage Manager more freely. And like that's the end of it. And then maybe more windows on devices that have got more RAM. And I will say, you could like, multitasking is a good example.

Like what's embedded in that word. You could gin up a whole yarn board of theories about that. I could say, well, multitasking could mean that the iPad is going to be able to run apps in the background reliably. Right? Like one of the things that has happened in the last year is Final Cut Pro came out for the iPad and you can't run it in the background while it's exporting video.

You can't because iOS, iPadOS just won't let you do that. Okay, well, an improvement to multitasking that could be that, that's not revolutionary, but it's better. It's not like, and I could say multitasking and productivity, like, you know, improvements to the audio system that we've never really seen.

They could do that if they wanted to now that they've got logic and final cut there. Maybe there's more value in that. Like, there could be more. But on its face, when I saw this, my response was like. OK, like it's it's like, I'm really sorry that you have received a hundred different paper cuts, but here's a bandaid. It's like, okay, great.

That bandaid will really help. But the fact is, this is not the core issue with the iPad. So if they're still, if they're like, ah, we have almost nailed the iPad. We just need a few productivity multitasking and app window management things. Like app window management is the one that stopped me probably like it stopped you, which is like, really?

We're doing this is it. It's like, Hey, iPad users get ready. It's going to be, he also said the iPad was going to be one of the big topics at WWDC. I was like, I just don't believe that either. But app window management is the thing. It's like, we're going to take another run at it. We're going to do another take on stage manager. And that's going to be the big thing for the iPad is rearranging those deck chairs. Okay, like I

I'll believe it when I see it but I don't think I just have a hard time believing that it's going to be much of anything. Last two things that I wanted to kind of just touch on that have happened in the last couple of months. Real one-two punch. Tariffs sat in.man. I don't even, I can't even begin to sum that story up, but like, it's going to be interesting to see where it ends up. I mean, there was a, there's a story over the week past that, you know, just like how Tim Cook got the quote unquote exemption that Apple have and that's kind of Apple have gotten for now maybe. For now maybe, yeah.

Which is interesting. I wasn't surprised to see that. I mean, I do still think there will be something. I mean, you know, this is obviously what they got prior in the prior tariffs, which existed in the previous Trump administration. They just weren't as devastating and they really only affected China, which obviously massively affected Apple. Uh, it seems like, you know, he's gotten something. I mean, I don't know what he's given, uh, but you know, he got what he wanted and it goes back to what me and you was working about a bunch of times on the show. Like this is kind of the thing. This is the thing. This is what he has to do. This is the job. This is, he has to do. This is the job.

This is his biggest job is navigating this kind of thing because this is obviously just would be very difficult for Apple's business if iPhones cost double. Although you know, what I keep hearing is the good news for Apple's business is everybody's buying stuff right now because they're afraid that the prices are all going to go way up. Yeah. Which is, uh, I don't know if that's good or bad. Um, I don't know. Because that kind of stuff causes problems later on, right?

It's like, well, yeah, you're like, like with COVID. Yeah. You, but you'll get a great max sales now, but you're eliminating things from the buying cycle or you're moving things forward from the buying cycle. And it'll be another four years, five years before you get those people back. And Ted Lasso season four is happening. Um, and the information we have so far,

did you, did you miss this? No, yeah, it is. No, I was just, I'm sorry. I thought you had that. You're like, Oh, it is. And that we know that Ted, so Jason Sudeikis is going to be in the show. Yes. And he will be coaching a woman's team. But I think we, I think what will happen is what we theorized on, on previous episodes that it will kind of be one of those.

There are two events happening, you know, like you'll get the part in the U S you'll get the part in the UK and that will be that. That's my assumption, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, unless it's like the AFC Richmond women's team, but I keep thinking Jason Sudeikis has had all sorts of issues with shooting so much in the UK that having a Ted Lasso storyline in the US, or maybe the women's team in the UK has issues and Ted is back in the US and then he is called

in to deal with, to launch that by, by, uh, look, Jason, it might just go back to what we spoke about Rebecca and Keely, right? And years and years and years ago, which is you back that truck up and it's big enough and it can solve a lot of problems. Yeah. The money truck is here. You might not like to be away from the family, but maybe the family would like a second home. You know, like there are ways around these things. Maybe the private jet is going across the Atlantic. Maybe the shooting schedule is different, right? Like, you know, because you have more money,

so you can have a second crew or whatever, right? Like, you know, because you have more money, so you can have a second crew or whatever, right? Like, you got to, if you do enough of it, you can make it work. Maybe, I mean, there are things that we haven't even talked about, like, you could change the show to be more... Like, what show, there are shows that are in, like, the, okay, um, the Diplomat on Netflix with Keri Russell. Season one, they shot it in the UK, because, okay, the diplomat on Netflix with Kerry Russell. Season one, they shot it in the UK,

because it's set in the UK. My understanding is season two and three, the exteriors are shot in the UK, and all the interiors are in like New Jersey, in a studio. Yeah. Because the actors and Kerry, I think because Kerry Russell didn't wanna spend all that time shooting in the UK.

I think it is very difficult for them to do that if they want to keep the realism they built of like, they're actually in the Premier League with real Premier League teams and the players from those teams. It's not impossible. It just feels maybe a little bit more complicated than your average television show where you could kind of find a like for like Right, but you know interiors you can just build sets in a studio and they look like they're real But they're not and it's the offices and all of that and and it dramatically reduces the amount of time you have Doing a UK shoot. Also a lot of the soccer stuff is so deeply

Also, a lot of the soccer stuff is so deeply modified in terms of like CGI, that you could probably shoot that anywhere, but they probably would shoot a lot of that in the UK. So my point being like, I'm sure there were some really interesting negotiations about this and if Jason Sudeikis was concerned about his schedule, I'm sure that, I mean, cause he's, he's the boss. They can write the show how they want to, and also structure the production of the show to get him what he wants. But yes, Mike, ultimately the money truck came while you were gone. The money truck came and backed into Jason Sudeikis' house and filled it

with money. And so Ted Lasos, he's heard from a lot of people are like, oh man, I hope they don't mess this up. It's like, you know what? That's always the case. I hope they don't mess it up, but like like, you know what? That's always the case. I hope they don't mess it up. But like, I'm happy to see those people give it a try to get a little another injection of kind of

Ted Lasso optimism and positivity into the world. I'm okay with that. There was no reason for the show to end. It just ended because that was what the creator, like you know what I mean? Their initial story concept was done. Like they had a concept for a story and they told it. But like, you know what I mean? Their initial story concept was done. Like they had a concept for a story and they told it. But like, you know.

Every television show is like this. It's like a novel. And then they went away and people were like, well, I know you told that story, but people want more. It's like, well, a novelist will be like, I'm going to write another book. So that's what they're doing. Did you see what they did with Mythic Quest? It's like Mythic Quest just ended and it seemed like it didn't get renewed.

So Apple allowed them to kind of reshoot the final episode. They didn't reshoot it though. This is the thing that's weird is they just shot it both ways. They shot it for them to get picked up and they shot it for it to be the end of the series. And what frustrates me is nobody told them before they dropped that episode

that they weren't coming back. So they dropped the episode where they were coming back. And then the next week they announced that they're not coming back. And then they dropped the version, they replaced the version that was there with a different version that doesn't kind of start a thread for next season. Like that should have been a conversation beforehand. I don't understand why they left that to that moment, but basically there is a final scene in both versions.

I watched it this weekend. There is a final scene in both versions and there is a twist in one version that makes you as a viewer go, oh, what's that about? And clearly it would have been dealt with in the following season. And in the new version, there is no twist like that.

It just, it just ends with Ian and Poppy, um, sitting down at their desks. And, uh, it's a, it's like a literally, it's a different take of the last thing. Um, I just don't know why they did that. I mean, it's like, who knows, right? Maybe they were at the negotiation table and they couldn't agree on the price and they just left it. Maybe it was that they went to them and said, you know, here's our offer for next season, but it's a lot lower.

And they're like, we're just going to walk away. Let's just wrap it. Because I just feel like this is probably pretty low on Rob McElhenney's like list of priorities. If you look at where his life has gone over the last few years, you know, like he now manages a football team and it's, you know, it's just like, yeah, but I think like it's amazing that show got four seasons, uh, the concept of the show shouldn't have worked at all. Um, I have a great fondness for that show.

I liked it, but, but I love the fact that I remember when they announced they were doing it and we talked about that for quite a while on upgrade of like, what is this and why is it with Ubisoft and like all of these things? And it turned out to be a really good show. I enjoyed all of it. I enjoyed the side quest that they did the four extra episodes they did this year, um, that are like their standalone set in the universe. I think they did a great job.

I also feel like they were really reluctant to have the characters grow a whole lot. They keep on sort of threatening changes during the season, but by the end, they just pull them right back into the same scenario. And that's what made me think I'm fine with it being over because I'm not sure they had a whole lot more to say in this setup. Four seasons is amazing for a show like that, I, I'm not sure they had a whole lot more to say in this setup.

And four seasons is amazing for a show like that. I think like, yeah, yeah. No bunny truck required. This episode is brought to you by delete me. Delete me makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everybody vulnerable data brokers can profit off your data because data is a commodity. Anyone on the web can buy your private information. And the sad fact is selling data can lead

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Room around uptime. Yee-haw! Yee-haw indeed. There have been some reports and leaks that have been building over the last couple of weeks, and there was some more in the past few days, that there could be a cheaper version of the Vision Pro in the works. So Mark Gurman had suggested that Apple was working on two models, right? A lighter and cheaper Apple Vision Pro and then this like Mac display headset

Which I'll also just throw in another take here Which I just don't think that that is a product that doesn't make some ship the way that it describes it makes zero sense To me who's buying that like realistically buying the other product. Yeah. Yeah, that is not an interesting product in my opinion It's like no super weird. I think That is a test that will never leave the lab. Yes. But Macrum is reported on some images shared from ex user Kosutami of a midnight color cable that appears to be the power cable of the Vision Pro that like wide lightning cable. Also said that it is part of something

called the Vision Air, which is a thinner, lighter product with elements made of titanium to be lighter. There are also previous rumors of an M5 chip refresh. So I wanted to just get your kind of feel on this. Like, where do you think or do you think that these select rumors are actually driving towards? Do you think there is a result that in the next 12 months, we will see a new vision something?

So my, my favorite bit of the German reports about this was where he said, all right, they figured it out. They're going to try to make one that's cheaper and lighter. No, really? Really? Wow. Cheaper and lighter. How? You can't do it. It's not possible. But the funny thing is he has been reporting about like, well, they're going to try cheaper. Well, they're going to try lighter. And finally, he's like, oh, they got it, guys. They got it, everybody. It's cheaper and lighter. I mean, those are the two things they need to do. So yeah, uh-huh. And I don't think it's going to be, you know,

feather light and a thousand dollars. I think it's still going to be pretty heavy, but lighter. And I don't think it's going to be, I mean, maybe it'll be $2,000. Like every dollar they shave off of it is more sales they could possibly get. But I think the larger story is just in the long run, it needs to be a lot cheaper and a lot lighter. Like all of those things are true. Both of those things are true. Or I would even say it needs to be lighter and a lot, lot, lot cheaper. And in the long run, yeah, they need to be glasses, but that's not gonna be for a little while. But it's a different thing, right?

Like this isn't a product, like this can't, I just can't, this like, it needs to be like, the price people want, they're not getting there and they're not getting there in two years, right? Like it's just not happening. It's not happening. Absolutely. No.

You just gotta let go of your idea of what this price, people like, it has to be $500. Well, that's not happening. It ain't gonna happen. It's not happening. It's not gonna happen. I would be surprised if it's 2000. Look how much more complicated this is than an iPad.

Like look at it. An iPad, they've been doing these things forever. It's a screen with a camera, right? This is, there are two things on the inside, one on the outside and a thousand sensors and two processors and all of the stuff you need, the battery that she's outboarded, which has to be hot, like you got the cable on it.

It's got the battery. This is just a very expensive thing. It's not gonna happen. It won't happen. Like there is not a, it's still a four figure number and it's not a thousand. Right? Like, and so I, you know.

Higher than that. Honestly, Jason, I imagine, hey, we've made a new Vision Pro, it's three grand. I mean, that could entirely be true. I think the point, and so you're like, why is the point, what is the point of this? Like, okay, this product is a big picture product. You just got to think of it that way.

The goal is that the next one will be not an M2, and so they'll be able to, it'll have better, you know, they'll be able to upgrade the internals a little bit, and it'll be a little bit lighter because that is a problem, and they need to be headed in that direction, and they're going be able to upgrade the internals a little bit. And it'll be a little bit lighter, because that is a problem. And they need to be headed in that direction. And they're going to try to get the price down at least a little bit and maybe a lot. But like, keep in mind, if it was $2,000,

that's not quite but almost half price, like, it's probably not going to be $2,000, probably going to be more than that. Probably gonna be 2500 or 3000. You're absolutely right. But the goal big picture is, that's that one. That's number two. And then there's number three and number three is another thousand dollars, $500 off and a little bit lighter. And, and, and the idea here in the long run and they can choose releases are kind

of irrelevant other than to keep pushing it forward, but like every few years you release a new one that's a little bit lighter and a little bit cheaper with the idea that you will eventually reach a point where you have miniaturized all of this stuff and advanced the software and are building toward your goal of making something affordable and then in the long run making something so light that you could wear it all the time and it could do pass through of actual reality instead of through cameras. Like, and that's the goal. And then on the other side, what we've talked about a lot, Mike is, uh, a meta

Ray-Ban style product that is like AirPods on your face. It's not VR. It's not really AR, even if a future version of that might have a very light sprinkling of AR using the software and stuff they've learned from Vision Pro as well. And then eventually that all kind of, those get better and more powerful and the Vision Pro gets lighter and cheaper and they get the, and most importantly, they gain the expertise and the software base and the hardware knowledge to build those products if it's going to be something in 10 or 15 years. But like for this one, I mean, there's no magic solution here.

It's going to be expensive and heavy. It's just going to be less expensive and less heavy. And that's good because the only way that the Vision Pro makes sense as a product is as a development environment and sneak peek and experiment at cutting edge technology that Apple hopes will become widely interesting in five or 10 years. That's it.

For like the only way they make it significantly cheaper is they have to make essentially every part of it worse. And I just don't know if they could bring themselves to do that. Like I don't know. They have to use less every part of it worse. And I just don't know if they could bring themselves to do that. Like, they have to use like lower quality screens, but I just don't see them doing it. Yeah, what they really need is for those screens to come down and in price.

And maybe like, I mean, part of the idea here is if, okay, Samsung's gonna make one and Google now has, they're gonna do a version of Android basically that's for XR devices and meta needs screens. And they're all trying to push this category. And if that's true, you might end up with the displays that are available being cheaper, right? Even if-

But are they the ones Apple wants? And decent. Right, cause there are other products they could have gone with, but they wanted this specific mini LED display from Sony. Like I'm sure that whoever supplies Meta could have supplied Apple, and they would have got a good set of displays

that were cheaper, but they didn't want that. Right, you just have to hope, if you're Apple, you just have to hope that that technology continues to improve so that the cheaper displays get better or that the expensive displays get cheaper and that that works in your favor. That's what you have to hope. Because generally that's what happens in technology, right? I mean generally if that stuff doesn't happen, nobody's getting a great

AR VR device, right? Like that's the way forward there. If if in 10 years, the only way to get a moderately good because the vision pro isn't even great, it's it's great for these devices, but it could be better to it could be higher resolution and higher frame rate. If if in 10 years, the only way to get that is to, is to have it be so expensive that the thing's going to cost three grand, that's bad news for the whole category, but I think there's an expectation that that will improve over time, but, but yeah, I, I don't, I, I. These reports are so weird.

Like they're so weird. And I don't, you know, I don't know. I don't know what it means. I think it's great. I think they need to keep shipping. I firmly believe they should keep shipping. And the goal should be lighter and cheaper. Like I absolutely agree with that.

If they wanna make, I wouldn't want them to compromise the Vision Pro to the point where they're making a $500 thing because it's not gonna to be any good. And I don't think it's going to push them forward toward their ultimate goal. I think it's a consumer play and I don't think they've got a consumer play in them right now. I mean, because they don't really have games. What would it be for? Unless they've got a sports deal or something like that. It doesn't feel like it's time to try and reach consumers. The tech's not good enough yet,

especially if you're not doing all the games like meta is. I was just thinking like a fully tariffed version of this. It's like five grand. It's like, yeah, we want it to get cheaper, but yeah, let's just see what happens first. This is exactly the kind of low volume product that we could just make in the USA though. So it's great. Can you imagine? What? Probably their most complex product?

Complicated product. Yeah, I know. I know. I have some baby tech thoughts. Like some tech related takes of my first couple of months of parenthood. I'll be collecting them up in an Apple note and I'll share them. Great. ChatGPT search as a new parent is amazing. It's just incredible. It's incredible when you have like a thing that you don't understand about a baby and instead of Googling it using ChatGPT, so helpful for me. And I have like a great example. So I think four or five days in,

I was sitting with the baby at like two o'clock in the morning and she was sleeping on my chest and we're in a nursery, it's nice and warm and she would yawn and shiver immediately. Right. And she kind of did this a couple of times in a row and I was like, that's weird. And so I picked up my phone and I Googled it and I was like, and Google's, Google's initial results was this is a rare neurological condition.

Oh my God. That was the, that was the top result from Google. And so then I went to chat GPT and they're like, Oh, your notice is totally normal. Like there are conditions of this, but this is just your baby's like neurological system building its pathways. And I was like, okay. I have had so many examples of this exact kind of thing. And what I think makes this kind of searching good is there is so much information online about baby stuff and there is every opinion in every direction, right? And so

it can be really hard to use any one service. Like for example, you know, like the US health service and the NHS have very different opinions about things, right? It's like that is, these are your health bodies, right? And they even, they kind of diverge, let alone all of the many Reddit threads that you're gonna come across and the baby blogs. And so I think it is very helpful to have a system that to give you an

answer is checking a bunch of sources rather than giving you the top one result. So like also as well, the, I have found the personality of an LLM to be helpful. Like, and chat GPT is really like, where often it just says to me like, hey, you know, like you're doing a really good job here. Like it's like, hey, like it's really great that you asked this because it shows that you care about your child.

I'm like, I do, I do care about my child. And I've found it to be super, super helpful for getting this type of stuff. Like, you know, like even we were, I was having, but like also, you know, people are like, oh, I can't believe you do this. Like, you know, like even we were, I was having, but like also, you know, people are like, oh, I can't believe you do this. Like, how can you trust?

Why do you trust any random person posting on Reddit? Like, you're like, we do this all the time, right? Like you've read something online, it confirms the thought that you had, and you're like, great, I will take that. But I don't take everything that it tells me. Like for example, I was a couple of days ago, I was like, what is the right amount of weight gain?

We'd weighed the baby, we're trying to get the birth weight up. It's like her weight up. That's been our whole thing, has been around weight and feeding. It's been very complicated. And we had a weigh-in and it was a good weight amount, but I was saying like,

what is the expected weight gain over a two week period for this thing? We were waiting for our pediatrician to come back to us, but I thought, well, I have the internet. Let me just get this answer. Right. And Tachypte gave me the answer and it's like, Oh, this amount, it will be good. It's like, Hey, would you like me to put that on a chart for you? Like, would you like me to just make a chart for you to kind of, to pin it with the different points that you've had along the way? And I was like, yeah, sure. And it gave me it. And I could see the chart and

I could see the percentile that it gave me on the chart. But then the result was like, Hey, it's in this percentile, completely different one. It's completely different. And I was like, do you mean this? And then like the LLM's go like, Oh, yes, of course. Yes. That's what I meant. Sorry, I got that wrong. Using these tools is like using anything online. You have to still use your mind, right? You have to still use your common sense, and you don't use it for the really important stuff, but for the like, how many diapers a day should I have, right?

For a baby of, and like something very specific that I like, it will do the calculations for me, right? Where I can be, and like something very specific that I like, it will do the calculations for me, right? Where I can be like, my baby is eight weeks old. What should I be seeing? So yeah, I found that to be super helpful. I think the new chat GPT memories feature will also potentially allow it to know how old your baby is for when you ask future questions. So it could theoretically say, well, your baby is now 12 weeks old and this is what we think. Yeah. And it is already doing that for me. It is doing that. So like it,

yeah, it knows stuff and I find that to be massively helpful. Um, as we're kind of growing with this over time. Uh, similarly, like if you want a product, right? Like I need a product for this. It will just go out and do all the research for me. I love it. Baby technology, so different varying things that need to be charged, they all use USB-C ports, but none of them have power delivery. So I have, I have everything is USB-C, but it needs to be charged via a USB-A because it can't take high power. This is a thing. There's every device that I have. It's like, great, charges by USB-C, but you plug them into charge via the things I use

to charge my phones and my laptops. Nothing charges them and you have no way of knowing that. So what's really great is we bought an electronic recliner chair for the nursery, which is probably the best thing we purchased. I'm very pleased we did that, but it has two USB-A ports in the side. So that's where we charge all the baby technology stuff in the nursery, in the chair. Um, Meta Ray Bands, we were talking about them a minute ago, fantastic for taking the baby out and wanting to listen to a podcast because it's not in my ears, right the audio that you're not bone conduction oh it's just

little speakers right above it's like Apple's audio pods in the vision pro they just got a but I have your ear I have more much more transparency than it's actual transparency because your ears are not covered. So that's amazing. Think of that. Imagine. Yep. I'm having to watch things on a delay more, right? So like, you know, there might be a sporting event or a TV show or something. We're going to watch the finale, but I know

I'm not going to be able to watch it for a day. And prior to the baby, what I would do is I would delete all the social apps off my phone, right? So I didn't accidentally open Instagram and get a spoiler. But I had a brainwave. Prior to the baby, what I would do is I would like delete all the social apps off my phone, right? So I didn't accidentally open Instagram and get a spoiler, but I had a brainwave in iOS 17. They added the hidden apps folder where you can just hide an app. This is the way to avoid spoilers for things because then you don't have to delete the

app because delete in the app, you have to re-sign into everything and that should become more and more complicated over time. So you just long press on an app. It goes into the hidden folder. It doesn't show up in search anymore and it's not on your home screen or it's not in your kind of app library. It's all the way down by right at the bottom. I found this to be very helpful to stop me accidentally going on Instagram and finding out who won the F1 race or whatever. So that's, that's just nice. Love a little tip. My last thing is a complaint, um, which is I don't understand what is going on with photo shuffle Apple's photo shuffle. So I've been the biggest evangelist of the photo shuffle watch face.

I love this thing. I remember sitting around a, uh, friends giving table with you in, in September of last year and showing you like convincing you to try it on your Apple watch. I have taken at this point about 600 photos of my child and they won't show up. They won't show up. I get, I've had currently on my watch face two days where I've had one image of my daughter. Why is this happening? Like I've even changed it, right? It used to be, I would see pictures of my wife, pictures of cities and pictures of landscapes. I'm like, no, let's get rid of the cities and landscapes. I don't want any of that.

Just show me my wife and my baby. No, we'll not show me the baby. And like, you know, when it shows the little preview of like if you tap it and shows you a previous Some images it's just like the same two images whatever system they have that indexes these images to make sure that they're like The right ones to use around the watch face or whatever. It's too slow or too selective I was so excited about this like I saw like as soon as the baby was born, like as soon as I had some images, I was going into my phone and like tagging the name, right?

Like getting the names all set up and getting the faces all correct. I was like, oh, I can't wait for them to start showing up. And I'm two months in and I've had like two times where I've seen a photo of the baby. I just want photos of the baby now. I want my wife too, but like the baby is what I want and more than anything, I don't know what system it is using to like to work

this out, but I just don't think it's doing a very good job of it. And I know I could set it up myself, but I don't want that. I want to be reminded of the little photos of the things that I forgot that I'd even taken. I filed a bug about this a while ago, filed a feedback, like a year ago or something. There is a prioritization that Apple does about like, what, like, I'm going to run the job that minds the photos that are tagged a certain way, and pick out a group, I think is how it works. It doesn't look at all, obviously, like

thousands of photos, it like picks out a group and caches them and is like, these are the ones I'm going to shuffle through and I've got them at hand and I can shuffle through them. And I think what I discovered is I think it's a bug. I think also that there's something like miss prioritized there, where sometimes you get caught where like, it's a bug. I think also that there's something like misprioritized there where sometimes you get caught where like it's got those eight or 12 or 20 photos

or whatever it is and it doesn't refresh. And I think it's, I mean, I honestly think it's a bug or like I said, I think what's really happening cause this goes, I had this issue where like I was trying to pick the people, pick my family from the people in the people list. And the people list was not everybody in my people list, including not members of my family who are at the very top. Yes, it took like three weeks before I could even select Saphir in the list.

Yes. So this is the problem is Apple is doing a bunch of stuff and the photos processors are doing a bunch of stuff to reduce that because they can't resource wise, they can't like do it all the time, but it seems like it doesn't do it enough. And so you end up with these really weird lags where like, if I'm sitting at the people screen and it's not showing me all the people, something's wrong. Like something's wrong, but it will sometimes take, and it goes for the photos it's selected to,

take weeks maybe. Like, yes, I agree. Very sad. You know, it's like, I know that Apple don't like to add settings, right? But like there is a button in the messages iCloud thing, which is a sync now. Sync this now. There are certain things. So I want to go to that thing, to that page with photos and just be like, just find them all. Just go now and refresh.

I want you, I want you to do this right now. Please go do this. I'll wait. I'm prioritizing this number one. Please do this now. Yeah. But yeah. Tech takes. now. Yeah. But yeah. Tech takes. This episode is brought to you by Ecam. Ecam is the leading video production and live streaming studio that is built for the Mac. But it doesn't stop there because Ecam is great at simplifying many workflows. You can do it all with the Ecam app, getting started quickly

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Yeah. Also six color stuff, but yeah, it's great. The Zoom integration is so good because not only, we've already got our Zoom stuff set up, but it allows me to set up the little boxes for where the people go and you assign people to the boxes. And I used to have to do all that by like screen share and then cutting little squares out of the screen share and putting them in different places.

It's just so much easier to do it this way. Also, you can have so many more people in a zoom, like it can be a lot. But for for Dungeons and Dragons, it's actually a good use of that. And it's been it's so much less frustrating now to do that stuff now that I'm using E cam live. Go and try out for yourself and get one month free today by going to Eamm.com

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Oh yeah, the good lasers, they've they've been off. I've been, I would say, Jason, our guests have been amazing. The lasers have been disappointing. The room around the Yeehaws, fantastic. Yeehaws were pretty good. Everyone had had the good yeehaws going. But the lasers, nothing like the original. That's what I'll say. I agree with you. That's what they have.

They're powered back up now. The first three questions are actually directed at me. So would you like to read them? You saved these. I would. I compiled, I was doing all the compilations. I saw it. So I left them at the bottom of our document.

So Evan wrote in and said for Mike on his return, did you keep up with F1 on your break? Do you try to watch races live or watch them back at your own time? So I have always tried to watch the races live. We actually try and make a point of it. Like me and Edina both really love to watch the races together,

so we would do our best to watch them live. The season began with a bunch of races in Asia. So they were starting at like between five and seven in the morning. Like one was even at four. Perfect. The beginning of the season. We usually never watch those ones live. We will just, uh, we will try, we'll get them on delay. Like we'll wake up early and we'll watch them. And this is when I would like delete all the social apps from my phone, right? Cause like the night before,

cause I don't want to accidentally just mindlessly open Instagram and find out who won the race. But we were up, we were up. So it was fantastic. And outside of that, like we do what we can. I want to keep watching them as we can. And so far it's actually been great for the season so far. Right, nice. Tim wants to know, what if anything has surprised you most about being a parent so far?

Feeding babies is so much more complicated than you think it was. Like it feels like it would be very natural and or easy to just give the baby the right amount of food that they need and get that balance right. But it turns out the more people are spoken to, this is incredibly complicated, especially with how it relates to weight gain. Knowing how much they need, knowing that they're getting the right amount is that, you know, the numbers are actually the right amount for the baby. Like are you breastfeeding? Are you bottle feeding? Are You combination feeding? Are you getting the right mixture? This has been our struggle and it has been a struggle. We've gotten it under control now, but it has taken the entire two months to kind of get our baby to the point where she's doing what she needs. And it's very emotionally complicated for everyone because it's like, it seems like this is such a simple thing to just feed our baby. And we, very hard and it felt like I took it very hard that we were kind of letting her down.

But we finally got it to a point where we're good now, we've got some great help, and we understand what we're doing. But this was not the thing I thought we were going to struggle with, right? Of just like that you're feeding the baby in an amount that seems to make sense time-wise and you're following all the guidance, but she's just not getting the weight gain that she needs. And there was no underlining health condition. There's nothing wrong. It was just, we just couldn't get it right. And it's been very funny to me that as I've been talking to more parents about this, at first they're like, oh, you know, that sucks. It's very tough for you. Like da da da da da. And then the more information I give them that

I've, I've had this happen like three or four times now, they're like, Oh, actually that happened to us. And it's like a thing that they'd forgotten about. But when I start mentioning that, Oh, we're trying this, we're trying that. And so it is, and you know, obviously we're in the parenting groups that we're in, like from our prenatal classes. And there are so many couples that are struggling with feeding. And it's we're in, like from our prenatal classes. And there are so many couples that are struggling with feeding. And it's like, wow, like, this is just, this is not the thing that I thought was gonna be as tough

as it ended up being. Well, yeah, for a thing that we've all kind of evolved to do, like lactation is hard. Like I remember that, absolutely. Like it's so hard. Often mothers will have big frustrations if they try to do breastfeeding. It's a whole complication, the baby latching and nodding.

It is, and there's an emotional component of like, am I letting my baby down? Why does my baby not like me? Why does the baby not want to eat? And it's all like, everybody knows it and your doctors know it and we've got, there's systems and all that, but it is so emotionally heightened because you're trying to, fundamentally you are trying to provide for your baby and are worried that you're failing your baby or that your baby is rejecting you in some way. And it's just, it's very, it's a, it's super tough. I remember that very clearly from back in the day. Alex

writes, was there a piece of technology that surprised you in a good way or bad way as a new dad during your paternity leave? Yeah, I kept one thing from my previous segment for this question. Um, white some kind, background noise is really helpful for babies in a bunch of ways. And there are now a million ways to get it. For us, it's helpful with sleep and or just general calming down of a fussy baby, you know, or an upset baby. Adina gravitates towards just looking on YouTube and I can't stand the things that she finds on YouTube because they're like four hour videos, but they loop way too fast and I can't handle the loop, right? The loop is like 20 seconds, but it goes on for four hours and it's, well, I can't, she does, she can't, she's like, I don't know what you're

talking about. Right. And I'm like, ah, it's driving me mad. That podcast editor in you where you're like, I can hear the edit. I know that they're starting it again. And the ambient tracks on the iPhone that you were talking about, I started using those. They're OK, but it's music more than sound. And I think that the iPhone has some sound stuff,

but it's not what I'm looking for. And I've tried a bunch of things. You know, I've tried a bunch of apps, like Widget Smith has some dark noise, some like white noise stuff. I've used dark noise too. These are apps that we've used, but the thing that we have found to be the most helpful

is a product called Ewan the Dream Sheep. It is a soft toy sheep that has a little sound box inside. It's quite clever. It also has like a warm red light, which is meant to be like a mimic of the baby being in the womb. We use this every single night of our child and it helps us sleep like without a doubt helps us sleep. You know, she can start to get fussing or press the button and it will turn on. It's very clever. It has a bunch of different settings that you can have noise-wise

and you can also kind of match up a couple of things. Like by default, it plays a heartbeat sound of like what the mom's heartbeat would have sounded like to the baby in the womb. And then you can add other noises over the top of it. So we have this really nice piece of harp music, which is a very long loop, which I'm very happy about. And you can turn it on and it will play for like 20 minutes. It also has a setting that will detect a baby crying and we'll just start playing. And it's also just this cute little sheep.

We've been very happy with this product. They're not a sponsor, but I would like them to be. But yeah, you and the dream sheep, that has been my favorite of the white noise machines that we've tried, or the white noise options that we tried. All right. Steve writes in and says, recently Jason mentioned that he does not use advanced data protection. Why don't you use it? Steve says, I have nothing to hide, but as soon as this product was available, I enabled

it. I just don't like the idea of anybody being able to possibly snoop on my data. Felt like it was going to be inconvenient and I didn't feel the particular need to do it. I mean, that's the honest answer is that this, I didn't feel like I need to do it. I mean, that's the honest answer is that this, I didn't feel like I needed to turn on more security features for myself and didn't want the hassle. That's sort of bottom line of it for me. So as a piece of follow up, I had to turn it off. So the way that that whole thing got

to that up until recently with Apple in the UK means that advanced data protection is just no longer available and they're eventually going to force everybody to turn it off. And so I kind of decided to just bite the bullet and turn it off myself before it became like a thing. I was incredibly impressed by the fact of just turning it off. Didn't seem to affect anything, which was, I was very surprised about and pleased about. And this is the thing that is continuing to just go through the legal system here in the UK. They've got a judge to agree that the hearing can't be private, so like Apple and the UK are gonna have this hearing and now it

can actually be public. So it continues. The saga continues. Um, I still have an iCloud account, which is good. Uh, and Eric asks, have you had to update your prescription inserts for your vision pro if not, do you plan on doing this every time your prescription changes? Well, I haven't had a big prescription change in a few years So I haven't had to deal with this and my guess would be unless I noticed an issue I would keep the existing inserts because I don't want to pay for more But if it became an issue, I would I was thinking about it So I need to get my eyes rechecked I haven't done it in a while and I do think that

My prescription has changed and I saw this question. I was like, oh god, I'll have to get those two The glasses are already expensive enough now. I'm showing out another couple hundred bucks to go and Division problem I'm a little skeptical that even if I have a little bit of a change in my prescription if the vision and the vision pro Is gonna be enough of a problem to need yeah that to change too So yeah, I would need to see it. I would need to perceive a problem for me to do it. Makes sense. Thank you to everyone who sent in a question.

If you would like to send in a question for a future episode of the show, please go to upgradefeedback.com. You can send in your questions to us. You can give your follow-up and feedback about the show. Still be nice. Mike's a new parent. He hasn't been getting a lot of sleep. You should be nice. Still be nice. Mike's a new parent. He doesn't get a lot of sleep. You should be nice. People are nice. People are nice. It's rare to get no nice comment. I think

people tend to be very nice in our feedback form. Thank you to our members who support us of Upgrade Plus. Thank you to everybody that signed up when Jason had been making the plea that was really intended just to be for one week, but because I did believe from the document that Jason kept saying it, but thank you for if you did sign up this week, Jason has a story that he's been waiting to tell me for a couple of weeks and I wanted to talk about some of the Apple TV plus content that I've been enjoying recently. If you would like to support the show and get longer ad free listening H and every week go to getupgradeplus.com. If you have not signed up yet and you do sign up, I really recommend two specific pieces

of content from My Botanical Leaf. One was an entire podcast episode, a 45 minute discussion between Jason and John Gruber about James Bond and also the CVS story from Scott McNulty last week was hilarious and is worth the price of admission for at least one month. Construction versus Scott. So good. Really great. If you want to watch this show, you can do so on YouTube. You can just search for upgrade podcast and do so.

But however you listen to the show or get the show, I really appreciate it. And thank you for having me back. I would like to thank Ecam, Delete, and Squarespace for their support of this week's show. We'll be back next week. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow. Goodbye, Mike Hurley.