Upgrade - 565: The Scent of Humane

Episode Date: May 26, 2025

from relay this is upgrade episode 565 today's show is brought to you by fit bod vitally and express vpn my name is mike hurley i'm joined by jason snow hi jason hi mike i have a snow talk question for you. Comes from me. Okay, I'm ready. I would like to know, other than talking to me, how are you spending your Memorial Day weekend? Ah, yes, Memorial Day weekend here in the US.

It's bank holiday in the UK, by the way. Yep. You know that. I knew that. But we're still working. My day's any different. No. But yes, I know it's a Monday.

We went to visit my in-laws in LA. So I am sitting in the room that I always think of as the ancestral home of the Upgradeys. We recorded the first Upgradeys in this, I recorded in this room. You didn't. I feel like a plaque should be made. I know the first Upgradeys was recorded right here at this uncomfortable desk in on this uncomfortable chair. But yes, I am back there. People who watch the show on YouTube can get to see the ancestral home. Oh, yeah, it's real exciting. It's a it's a guest bedroom. So yeah, anyway, it is that we did that we went out, we, we had lunch yesterday, basically at the beach, so that was fun.

Nice. And then we had a dinner on Friday, no, on Saturday night in Santa Monica, a place that was like, we were outside on the streets, and it was a really great dinner with Lauren's sister and brother-in-law and Lauren's parents. So really nice time there too. So yeah. And we brought the dog. So that's also fun because she gets stimulation

and a car ride and all that kind of thing. On the show a couple of weeks ago, you mentioned that the Indy 500 is like a good Memorial Day tradition. And I want to let you know an upgrade plus today I'm gonna tell us I watched the Indy 500 and I watched it but it's gonna be an upgrade plus because I don't want everyone to know my opinions about the Indy 500 so if you want Mike's opinions on the Indy 500 go to getupgradeplus.com thank you to me a British man reviews the great American Heartland event of the Indianapolis 500 mile race. Yes. Great. Thank you to me for submitting that

snow talk question. I wrote it directly into a Google doc, but if you would like to submit a question of your own for future use, don't do that. You can't do that. Go to getupgradefeedback.com. No, just go to upgradefeedback.com, not get. Just upgradefeedback.com. There's too many domains, Jason. Upgradefeedback.com and you could submit yours in there. We have some follow-up. As we expected, I kind of predicted

last Tuesday evening, Fortnite returned to the App Store in the US. I believe from what I could find online, zero statement from Apple on this one. Yeah. Just, it just appeared. So it's good to know they're scared of the judge. Right. They're obviously very scared of judge of on Gonzalez Rogers. Because the judge said, if you can't sort this out, you got to come see me.

Like see me after school. After class, yep. And they were like, no thank you, and now Fortnite is back. Tell me who you're sending and then send them to me so that what happens then, I can put them in jail? I don't know, what is going on? I'm gonna yell at them?

They're like, no, forget it, we're just gonna do this. She might put them in jail, I don't know, we'll see. Maybe. So I was quite surprised about this actually. So obviously, Epic are doing what you'd expect, right? They have a way for you to go out to the Epic game store and buy the V-Bucks, which is the currency inside of Fortnite. And they're kind of doing it in a way which feels pretty good from a following the rules perspective. You press a button and then a window pops up and it says choose how to pay.

And it's got Epic Store or in-app purchase. And what I had expected Epic would do is give you a discount, right? That like a thousand V-Bucks for you is cheaper. We're going to make it cheaper than if you bought it through Apple. Isn't actually what they're doing. If you buy V-Bucks through the Epic Games store, you get 20% back in Epic reward points that you can use to buy other games on the Epic Games store, which is a full game store. Or you can use that money to buy other virtual currency like V-Bucks, more virtual currency

inside of Fortnite. So you kind of build up a credit in your account, but it's still charged the same price. It's very interesting. It's just not what I expected them to do. I expected them to say, hey, it's cheaper, right? Like it is cheaper to spend it here. I don't know if they are trying, if they're like trying not to upset apple, right? Like to that, that feels like the way that would upset them more if you told them the price is different. Um, but what I also expect happening is Epic is also trying to maximize the amount of money that they could make from this transaction, right? Cause they're getting all of the $9 and what they are giving you is not cash back it's just

store credit store credit it's more fake money yeah it's also training people to use more use the epic store or to know it even exists it was interesting to see that I don't have a lot like how dare they it's just I wasn't expecting that route but this is the route that they've taken again, though, like if you are a fortnight player and you are spending a lot of money on V bucks, this is a better deal for you. Like just unequivocally, this is a better deal for you because it's essentially 20% cheaper because you get 20% extra. So there you go.

And I wasn't expecting more follow-up on this so quickly. Donald Trump has threatened Apple with a 25% tariff for iPhones and this production has moved to the US. We spoke about this last week, that you had a problem with Tim Cook, didn't like all those phones being made in India. This will apparently apply to other phone makers and is expected to go into effect at the end of June

if any of this tariff stuff can be believed. Because no phone maker can make their phones in the US. So great, I guess. Apparently there was some reporting today, I don't know what I think about it, but apparently Tim Cook declined an invitation to join the administration on the Middle East trip that the president's been on. Not sure if that fed into this. He's like maybe just like personally affronted. He seemed to mention that I think somewhere on the trip, he was like, Oh, Tim Cook's not here or whatever. And like, okay, fine. Yeah. And so yeah, I guess this, I don't know.

Like is this, okay. It is a problem if it holds, right? Like, because here's the thing we've spoken about it as already. They can't do this, right? They can't make these phones in America, they just can't. So... No, no, I read a very serious analysis that said you might as well say make them on the moon, it just can't happen. I like that, but it's just impossible to do. Again, we spoke about this last week. It is not impossible. It is possible on some timeline, right? Like there is a possibility of this. It is just not feasible. It doesn't make any sense

because the phone would be more expensive to produce than the 25% tariff. Like it still just doesn't work out. So what is probably gonna happen is the price is going to go up on iPhones. Not probably. If this tariff holds iPhone prices go up. Yep. The thing that I, if I was Tim Cook, what I am concerned about is this, this tariff just continuing to increase.

Because this is what Trump has shown that he will do. Now, what Trump has also shown that he will do is he will back down if you don't back down, right? Which is what happened in China. So I don't know. Yeah, I think my best guess if I was, and I'm very glad I'm not the person who has to talk to the White House about this, would be to make the case again,

probably to try to get it directly in the ear of the president, that what he's asking for is actually impossible. Certainly impossible. You could even say impossible during his term or whatever. Like it's impossible. Probably during his lifetime. Probably during his lifetime. But well, you don't tell him, don't remind him of that.

Cause you know, and basically like what steps can we take that will satisfy you in the meantime, because there are lots and lots and lots of reasons why this can't happen. And like, if they're defiant and they're like, well, no, just make it happen. You're magic wizards of technology. Get the, you know, what is it? Bring in the boffins, right? Like just make it happen. And I'm like, well, no, just make it happen. You're magic wizards of technology. Get the, you know, what is it?

Bring in the boffins, right? Like, just make it happen. And then like, well, we can't do it. It's not, it's not, it's not possible. So is there a country you'd like us to make them in? No, no, no, USA. Okay, well, we're already investing half a billion dollars or whatever in the USA.

You tell, you tell us like, we hear some suggestions of ways we could do this. We could do more assembly. We could, we could quantify. You ways we could do this. We could do more assembly. We could quantify. You could make the tariffs on a sliding scale, or you could just say, we're going to, you know, in the end, we're going to do this, in which case that's just what it's going to be. And our prices are going to go up and everybody's going to know that it was because of you.

And that's it. So, but that would be my argument is try to get them to either back down or let's invent again, let's invent another thing that allows you to say, see what I did, I got them to do this thing, but that thing's actually meaningless. I saw some people saying, you know, could you set up a factory that makes, you know, 10 iPhones a day for an absorbent amount of money, but say, look, Apple has brought iPhone production back to the U S. Uh, could you, could you re-architect to the assembly process so that they're assembled in sort of two pieces and they're imported in the US and then those two pieces are put together in the US and then put in a box?

I don't think any of that, it's all ridiculous, right? It's all ridiculous theater. But the question is, what will satisfy the White House? And nobody knows and you think you satisfied them and then somebody and here's the thing that I'm really interested in. Somebody keeps telling Tim Cook, Oh, you shouldn't trust Apple. They're just doing this thing and they're not wrong. That person, do you mean that? You said some cook. Do you mean, Oh, sorry. Somebody's telling Tim Cook, though somebody's telling Trump things that contradict Tim Cook.

There we go. Yeah. Somebody's telling Trump, Oh, don't listen to Tim Cook. And like, who is that person? And what is their end goal there? And is that person delusional about Apple's ability to, because like Apple invests a lot in the United States. They just do it in the places where it makes sense.

And the problem with a lot of things going on with this administration is they seem to believe that lots of things, they wanna bring a lot of things back to the United States that don't make sense and that haven't made sense for decades and that nobody wants to bring back because they're like really low paying terrible factory jobs that Americans don't want. And yet, you know, whatever, the Treasury Secretary was like, oh, your kids will work

in factories and then their kids will work in factories. And it's like, this is a good message. I, you know, so again, yes, Apple could invest decades in doing this. And in fact, that would be one of your sales pitches is we're going to start the work now. It's going to take a long time though. So, you know, cut us a break while we do this, but we're going to start the work now. In fact, we're already starting it with TSMC and we'll do some other stuff, but we're starting the work now and see if they'll listen. But if there are people inside the White House

who just believe that Tim Cook can flip a switch and iPhone production can come back to the US, at some point you just say, all right, well, tariffs it is then, because what else are you gonna do? Like there's literally, you can't make the impossible happen. There is a limit to what they can do to play ball with the White House. And one of the limits is reality. So, which is not a limitation to the White House, apparently.

I think at this point, to me at least, it seems abundantly clear that for whatever reason, Donald Trump is unhappy with this scenario, right? Which is that is like being, cause he has obviously been told many times by this point, right? That Apple cannot produce their phones in America. He must've been told this. There's no way he's not been told this. He is unwilling to accept this as a possibility. Right? Yes. He just believes lots of facts. Yes. Or he's just, you know, I think my kind of feeling on this is just like, he's just like, I don't care. It's not my problem. It's your problem. Make it happen. Like, I just don't think he is even interested in entertaining the conversation. And so I don't know what

they do. I think the India thing made him feel like he was being taken advantage of. Which he was, right? I mean, look, being as kind as you could possibly be to a set of decisions that I think are legitimately insane, but Apple were going to get around the China tariff, right? And like, I think that Trump saw the amount of money they would make from Apple from whatever China tariffs as a good thing, right? That like, this is gonna be good money for her, for us. And Apple were like, ha ha, we've got you on this one.

And like they played their card and he played his card. And now they just keep playing cards. And I don't know what happens at this point. I don't know. I don't know, 52 pickup at some point will happen. Yeah, I don't know. There have been a lot of articles written about like, Tim Cook's very bad week,

and now like Wall Street Journal is like, Tim Cook's very bad year, which is definitely the case at this point. And look, going back to, there's almost too much discussion right now of like Tim being fired or whatever. I mean, if you're Tim Cook at this point, do you wanna keep doing this?

Like what is going on to this company? And like, we've got more of it in today's episode, but like, it just feels not nice right now. I think Tim Cook is staying now in great deal because he's concerned about the company that he's been working at all this time and figures that if he leaves, I really, I mean, people can be cynical and say, well, he's going to get paid a lot of money to do whatever he's doing now. But I, I look, if the money's not important, he could pull, he could pull the parachute and walk away right now and he'd have a huge amount of money. I think he had a legitimate close relationship with Steve jobs believes in what Steve believed believes in Apple and wants it to continue. And I think Tim Cook believes that the best, uh, scenario is for him to stay through all of this because he's the best positioned person to deal with a lot of this stuff, which is

probably true. Although I am reminded I'm reading David Mitchell's book Unruly, which is about a history of English kings. Very funny book because it's David Mitchell. And one of the things he points out is some of the worst things happen when a king holds on to power as long as possible thinking well I'm the best at this so I'm gonna hold on to this but what ends up happening is his heirs aren't prepared and he doesn't prepare an heir and say I'm gonna invest more power in my heir and so then the king it's all going

great and then the king you know like lands funny on a saddle and, and gets wounded in his intestines and he dies the next day. Right. And it's just like, well, that's it for the king and nobody's there. And there's a power vacuum and nobody's prepared. And it ends up being much worse for everybody. So I'm not saying that that's happening here, but it just, it struck me that I do think Tim Cook is probably the right person for this moment in terms of these very specific things. But we also can look at

all the underlying problems that are going on and wonder, you know, in the long run, is this a Tim Cook's good for the short term, but in the long term, the longer he stays, the worse the long term gets? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I stand by very much what I said a couple of weeks ago, which is that I think that the company needs a pretty large culture change. I'm not alone in thinking this. I don't know how it goes exactly. You know, I posited the idea that maybe Tim Cook needs to leave for that to happen, but maybe not like, you know, I'm not, I'm not like, uh, uh, parading outside of Apple demanding that he is removed, but I am definitely of the thinking that right now he's the only

person that can handle this situation. If there is a situation to be handled, if it can be handled. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's true. And this is the problem is for all of our criticism of Tim Cook and Apple's culture in a lot of other areas recently, I still believe that dealing with the White House and dealing with the supply chain in this era of tariffs and a lot of pressure being put on the supply chain,

I'm not sure there's anybody else who could do all of that as effectively as Tim Cook, which is why you keep Tim Cook around. Or as we were talking about, or you at least keep him as chairman of the board. Sure, you gotta keep him around, doesn't necessarily mean keep him as CEO, but it does mean keep him around, yeah. An anonymous upgrading wrote in and said, I work at the AIML org,

so that's artificial machine learning organization, Apple, would like to correct something Jason said on the last episode This is so great the current version of the foundation models being used for Apple intelligence are not the same ones that we announced last summer They have been updated multiple times In fact, this is especially important for things such as additional language support along with additional languages other metrics have improved such as context Context length and MLLU score. I got separate additional unrelated feedback from a trusted individual that Apple updates these models frequently over the Internet and they adapt the models.

It's not just tied to OS releases. This is good feedback. My question would be, how would we know this? Like, are we supposed to see this is better in anywhere? Like, where is this better? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that the challenge here is, if it's not happening in OS updates and it's not being announced, are we noticing? And also, I would say a larger question is, is there a large model update being readied as a part of the next iOS cycle

and that update is not being rolled out because they wanna hold it. And I would argue again, that the way AI works in the rest of the industry, maybe you need to start branding and making a big deal about pushing out a new model instead of, especially, and this is great news actually, if it's not tied to an OS update. This that's true this is that's great because then there could

just be a press release some Tuesday where Apple says you know our our foundation model goes to version some ridiculous version number and and and so it's improved and here are the benchmarks and look how awesome we are and they could start doing that and it would at least you know if they are if they are working hard and getting good Results it would allow them to show that they're not Maintaining radio silence for a year after they announce AI features. So this is all great to hear. Yes But but you and I I think our point is

We didn't know this And that's the point right like if it's getting better. Why do we not know? And that's the point, right? Like if it's getting better, why do we not know? Why is that not? And then my other question is, is something, is there a next wave that is being held back? Because that's the thing they're not gonna talk about. And it's gonna be, you know,

it's gonna be September or June or whenever before we see that thing, or is this the state of the art? I don't know that. It just, it shows this isn't how they think. It's not what they think. I don't know that. It just, it shows this isn't how they think. It's not what they think. I don't know enough about how this works either really from a technical level, but I can imagine also the possibility that the model, the foundational model, you know, it's being updated a lot,

but the tools are not being updated at the same frequency to take advantage of the changes in the model. And the reason I mentioned this is a couple of days ago, I made an image playgrounds image of John Voorhees to troll him and it was just atrocious like so bad. So I think image playgrounds is a place where that's not seeming to, to make a difference. I mean, the only thing that they've added was the, I think is the animation or the sketch style that they added as part of the West release. But you know, aside from that, I don't know where these changes are occurring. I mean I will say I don't use Apple's writing tools, so maybe you see it

a lot in there especially with context length. It's possible they're better, could be. But yeah I'm not sure exactly where I'm supposed to see that benefit, but it is good to know that they have the plumbing to do this. that benefit, but it is good to know that they have the plumbing to do this. Now, unbelievably next week is the draft. I had this thought this morning. Uh, couldn't believe it started duplicating documents. And so next week we will be competing for the draft. For the draft of the WWDC draft, but it would be dub dub dub dub dub dub.

Including the California letters. I thought about that too. I don't want to call it dub dub is the problem. Yeah, oh, the California Bear Trophy. Yeah, yes, yes. We currently share it. We need better rules. I remember we need better rules. So we'll talk about that in our book.

We do need better rules. I will gin up some better California Bear Trophy rules because we ended up within miles of each other. And so we declared a tie because depending on how you interpreted entering the location, it changed who won. So it declared a tie because depending on how you'd interpreted entering the location It changed who won so it was a tie. It's so amazing, right? Like Amazing and I'm glad that we got some of the rule issues out right away But who would have thought that we would have been within a couple miles of each other

But we were so we will we will revisit that and I think about that every time I look at my fridge Which is where my California bear trophy is. So. I have it in my trophy cabinet behind me. Beautiful. I love it. I love it. So that's for the people who don't know that is a, we try to predict the name of Mac OS named after a, assuming it continues to be named after a California

place name. Oh no, that would be funny. If it stops, then we just retire the California bear trophy after a single tie., then we just retire the California bear trophy after a single tie. And then we all, the California bear trophy is related to like a bottle of wine. You know, it's just like, it's just like something completely different, but we still just call it the California. Yes. Hmm. It was a one-off. Uh, so anyway, we'll, we'll try that. And then there's a, because we don't tend to actually predict it. We do a thing where we predict

it and the closest to the actual geographical location wins except when it's identical like it was last year. I'm putting a link in the show notes to Spawn in the discord who made a California bear trophy website and I'll put that in the show notes if people want to want to check it out. Just very high quality of one thing that happened. Yep. Amazing. This episode is brought to you in part by our friends over at FitBod.

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hardware devices, kind of in collaboration with OpenAI. But yeah, they were kind of like... Yeah, that was the idea. They were working with OpenAI to build some hardware, but it was the separate company that Johnny Ive had set up to work with OpenAI on building some hardware, but it was the separate company that that Johnny Ive had set up to work with OpenAI on building some hardware and last week they did a big announcement that apparently was just more like, well yes we're doing that and we're formalizing it and we're bringing that inside, we're buying that company OpenAI is so that it is you know more formally part of OpenAI and I think they said it made more sense for them to be part of OpenAI than this very weird like third party but kind of first party accessory thing.

I think at first it was very much a do we have an idea here before we become friends forever. So Johnny hired a variety of ex Apple designers and engineers including Scott Cannon, Evans Hankey and Tang Tan. Evans Hankey was the head of design after Johnny left, I think for visual design, not like hardware, right? Like UI. Tang Tan was a hardware engineer overseeing a lot of products like the iPhone. Scott Cannon was not-

I think a hardware designer, not engineer. Okay, thank you, hardware designer. Scott Cannon is a name I didn't know, as I looked him up. Scott Cannon made Mailbox, which is know as I looked him up Scott Cannon made mailbox Which is one of the greatest apps ever made sir much appreciated and so now open AI have acquired them for 6.5 billion dollars and is bringing don't forget many nameless physicists and scientists that apparently work at open it at IO

Which I read that as being trying to trying to explain away why all the senior big name people are designers. They're like, oh, but we also have engineers and scientists and physicists. So don't worry about that part. I mean, well, my kind of read on that, I know, here's the thing, we're gonna set this conversation up. We're gonna get into more detail a bit. Jason's very skeptical, I'm optimistic.

So take that as your like top line before we get into this and fall. My read on read on that was here are the names you might know. Yes. Everybody else. Maybe you don't. Yeah. But the names that they mentioned, all the senior people that they mentioned in their release are basically designers. It's Johnny getting the band back together. So it's a, it's a, it's a team being led by designers. And then they mentioned, Oh, but we also have engineers and scientists and physicists too. Don't worry about that. Johnny will be overseeing design for OpenAI and I.O.

All the I.O. team now work for OpenAI. Johnny is remaining at LoveFrom and will be taking on no more major clients. So Johnny continues to work with his clients and will be overseeing design for open AI. Right. Good news for the King. I mean, yeah, and Ferrari and Airbnb, which is a really great collection. Well, when the King to write his Ferrari to an Airbnb, it's gonna be all Johnny all the time when he's talking into his little IO pin and it'll be great. I don't know if you knew this part. I mean, this is interesting. I've been listening to it and reading a lot. Brian Chesky, the CEO of Airbnb introduced Ive and Altman. That's how they got to know each other there.

Because apparently at the moment, Brian Chesky wants everyone to know this. He's just going around so like, I did this. I did this. You introduce a couple of people and then they get married and you got to take credit for it. Yeah. At the wedding, when you go to the wedding, you have to give them, you know, I did that. I did this. This is because of me.

So few bits of information I want to give to kind of continue setting the scene, some quotes, et cetera. So Mark Gurman and sharing Gaffrey at Bloomberg got to interview them both. Apparently they got this interview because Mark Gurman got the tip that this was going to happen. And they said, don't tell everyone and we'll give you quotes. We'll give you that. You can sit down with Johnny Ive, which by the way, I love the thought of Mark Gurman and Johnny Ive having a conversation. That's amazing. There's something about that that is so funny to me.

But anyway, well, and if you, if you've got a good sense of humor, if you're Johnny Ive, you sit down with Mark Gurman and say, I can't wait to hear what I'm doing next. Yes. Right. Tell me. I mean, when you get it again though, right? Which is wild that somebody inside of this organization was talking to him. Like I think I heard John Gruber say this recently,

like Mark Gurman's, like, tendrils, he didn't say these words, I am. They're like, he is embedded, like, everywhere. Yeah, and for a long time, the other people kind of come and go, but he's been doing it for a very long time. He is good. All right. So here's some quotes. Here's some Johnny Ive. I have a growing sense that everything I've learned over the last 30 years has led me to this place and to this moment. This is from Johnny Ive. I have a growing sense that everything I've learned

over the last 30 years has led me to this place and to this moment. That's a Johnny Ive quote. Quote from the Bloomberg article. The takeover of IO will provide open AI of about 55 hardware engineers, software developers, and manufacturing experts, a team that will build what Ive and Altman expect to be a family of devices.

This is from Sam Altman. In the same way that the smartphone didn't make the laptop go away, I don't think our first thing is going to make the smartphone go away. It is a totally new kind of thing. And Johnny Ive on the humane AI pin and the rabbit. Those were very poor products. There has been an absence of new ways of thinking expressed in products in the video that they made, which was their like, um,

wedding video essentially. Yeah. Johnny and Sam take a surprise. The Airbnb guy wasn't waiting for them in the cafe to say, Hey, he was filming. Brian, Jessica without the camera. I think it's actually worth being saying at this point that I absolutely adore Johnny Ive, which I think listeners of this show probably know. So again, that like colors my whole thing.

And I am super over Johnny Ive. I am so over Johnny Ive. I think it is. I think he did some great work in the nineties and in the two thousands and it's all it's the mid 2020s now and that since Steve Jobs died, I'm just going to lay it out there. Since Steve Jobs died, he has not had a collaborator who can tell him no and work with him. And instead he was given free rein to do Sir Johnny Ive things. And I think he's to blame for a lot of the mistakes Apple has made since then. And so I don't, I'm, I'm super over him. I'm tired of hearing him talk. I'm tired of his highfalutin words. I am so sick of Johnny Ive. I'm absolutely could not get enough of it. I'm so happy we're in this world where he's speaking. That's it. So this is the difference between the two of us

I love that he's giving interviews. I love that he's showing up in places. This is fantastic This is whatever wanted from Johnny Ive is just to hear more of what he has to say From a Wall Street Journal article the product will be capable of being fully aware of a user's surroundings in life will be unobtrusive Able to rest in one's pocket or on one's, and will be a third core device a person will put on their desk after a MacBook Pro and an iPhone. Altman said that the device isn't a pair of glasses and that I've had been skeptical about building something to wear on the body. And Altman said, we've both got excited about the idea that if you subscribe to ChatGPT, we should just mail you a new computer and you just use those. So that's all of my quotes and stuff. I just wanted to set all of that

information. I think it's helpful to know what they're thinking about. Uh, you wrote an article which essentially was an expanded version of what you just said that like you just think this is nonsense. Marketing, marketing BS, marketing BS. Um, and uh, yes, yes. I think about Johnny Ive. I'm very skeptical of Johnny Ive and the fact that given, and I think Apple made the right decision to make him in charge of things in the days after Steve Jobs died because they really didn't want to be perceived as having lost their soul, right? But Johnny Ive, a couple of things. I mean again, he came as a young designer to a really

broken Apple. Steve Jobs saw something in him. They clicked, they worked together. But again, Steve Jobs had incredible product sense, really was trying to make devices for the rest of us. And there is nothing about Johnny Ive on his own that suggests he's interested in the rest of us. He's really interested in building an amazing driverless car with no steering wheel and a gold watch and, you know, and these, and of course working with Ferrari and the King and things like that, very high design. He doesn't strike me as somebody, he's a very rich man who has had incredible success and runs in very highfalutin circles. And I just don't feel like he is in contact

with that other part. And I think Steve Jobs honestly was, I think that was one of the brilliant things about him. And designers are amazing. I've worked with many incredibly talented designers over the years, but you can't just like, constraints are very important. And being somebody who's thinking about the product

in a way that is different from the designer and can say, no, that was the thing Steve Steve Jobs did incredibly well and they have a very, very fruitful, legendarily fruitful partnership. But since then, he's been the man in the white room talking about this highfalutin stuff and shipping these products that are, you know, well, it's more important that there are fewer ports on a laptop because then it's more of a monolith and that the laptop be useful. And it's possible I'm monolith and that the laptop be useful. And it's possible I'm ascribing too much of this directly to him, but I feel like the

design sense of Apple was built by him and they were given free rein after Steve died to do whatever. And so Johnny being in charge of a team whose big names are other designers makes me deeply skeptical. And I know I've heard through the grapevine friends of friends that oh there are a lot of really good talented Engineering types we have to the statement about the physicists and scientists. That's great. Great to hear But like but Johnny's in charge and maybe Sam Altman But again, I'm skeptical that Sam Altman can bring to the party anything that Steve Jobs did

But like if Johnny's in charge and he's Sir Johnny and he's so intimidating, I feel like you're replicating, unless he's really changed and that his time away from Apple and building this new product, this new product has made him feel very different about it. I am just fundamentally skeptical that getting the band back together after you've all made a huge amount of money is more, is probably more about wanting to see those people again and take

six billion dollars from the AI bros than it is about actual creativity. I prepare look they're very talented maybe they will make something amazing but having Johnny be the head of it makes me deeply skeptical because I've seen what happened when he was given all the latitude. And I think that it was very bad for Apple in the long run. But there are other reasons too. You know, I was I texted you and Steven last week at when this happened. And I said, you know, that they're furious at the humane people. Because those humane people did that AI pin and it was a flop. And like, not only do they have to say, no, no, no, no, no, we're not doing an AI pin, but come on, they're probably kind of doing an AI pin. Maybe it's like, oh, but it's not a pin, it's a thing that you put in a pocket or put on

your desk or whatever, but like, what else could it be? They've said it isn't a screen and it isn't a wearable. So it's basically like an extrusion of open AI into the world through an aluminium, you know, thing that looks like an iPod shuffle. Like, okay. But, like, we already talked about this with the AI pin. First off, a lot of language about regretting that they unleashed the smartphone on the

world, because all of these companies that try to do this try to explain that what they're really looking for is to save us all from our smartphones, which we love and everybody loves and are incredibly successful and none of us need to be saved from them. I believe that very strongly. The market doesn't want to not buy smartphones. And second, you're left with all of those other issues, which is, okay, why is that better than using AI on your phone or your earbuds or your watch or your laptop? What, what does this device, like, why do I have a laptop and a phone on my desk and this thing when presumably my phone can do what this thing does?

It's really, I'm not saying they can't do it. I'm saying I am. Look, Mike, I spent two days because I didn't want to give a kneejerk reaction that this was a load of BS. I spent two days, because I didn't want to give a knee-jerk reaction that this was a load of BS. I spent two days thinking about it. And the fact is, I do think this is a load of BS for a lot of different reasons. And I'm not saying that in the end,

behind the AI hype and the Johnny Ive hype, there might be something tangible. I'm saying that there is so much AI hype here, and there is so much Johnny I've I've hype here And when I look at the last few years and what other people have thought about or tried with hardware That's connected to AI that isn't just a smartphone or accessory It doesn't make sense So I look at this and I think six billion dollars of opening I stock, so it's kind of plain money, sort of.

And these two people who have been responsible for huge amounts of hype in various areas over time, you put it all together and I cannot walk away. I'll just say BS is short for something and I've never used that word on Six Colors until last week because I feel very strongly the scent of BS marketing here. The scent of Quibi, the scent of humane is strong with this announcement.

Not saying it can't be something because it is a whole bunch of talented people and the leader in AI stuff right now. I'm just saying I was shocked at how many people just took this announcement and are like, oh, wow, great, amazing. This is going to be awesome. I think Federico said Apple is cooked at one point when he saw this too. In our defense, that news broke while we were recording, so we were just very excited about it.

It's very hard when there's breaking news like that. Of that magnitude, it's pretty huge breaking news, right? It is huge breaking news. I get it. I get it. So I took two days to be like, I'm gonna think about this a lot because I don't wanna come out with a knee-jerk reaction that is everything, you know, old man yells at cloud. Everything is bad.

I didn't wanna do that. But after a couple of days, I can't find anything other than deep skepticism that this is nothing. Can I make more of my robustness? I have been writing them down on my little notepad here. Because I just think even I have a debate, but we are having a debate, I guess. So for me, and I think what a lot of I should say, I let you go second, because I saw it in the notes that you wanted me to go first. And then you were going to say Mike is more optimistic. And I thought, well, I could lean back and let Mike

say his thing and then demolish it. But I was like, no, I'm going to, I'm going to say my thing. And then I'm going to let you go. So then you'll get another chance afterwards if you want it. So I, I think for me, like I, I just can't help but watch this and feel excited because I love technology. And if I just take them on face value, which I think is, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a way to be imagining about technology that might exist. Yeah. But yes, though I do. Right. Like I do. I, I am a technology optimist. Like I, I, I love technology. I'm an enthusiast. And so I, when something comes along,

I often take an enthusiast view. Like I'm enthusiastic for it until I use it and can then make up a second. Opinion, right? Cause it's like, I, all you can do is take the information you're given and you can choose to do with that what you want. You can say it's BS or you can be like, okay, let me take them at their word. If I take them to their word and it's great, at their word. If I take them at their word and it's great, that's awesome. If I take them at their word and it's terrible, that's also fun.

I can pick them apart and see what that's like. And I think it's fair that we would all agree that having talented people can produce good products. If you want to produce good products, you need good talent. And I expect that nobody right now can attract talent for hardware. Like Johnny can like I expect right now, everyone wants to go there because. But maybe not everyone more than enough people. I would expect there are more than enough people want to like he could take anyone he needs right that's what I would assume I I don't know that but I think designers hardware and software designers would look to him

and be like I would love the opportunity I would love the opportunity to work with him and sure maybe engineers too who knows right? Maybe but remember a lot of those engineers probably worked on stuff while he was at Apple. Sure. And there's a question about how they feel about that. And that's my question, is I have no doubt that he's gonna have great design talent.

I just, I wonder if the leadership is design, if you're a hardware engineer who is really excited about working with Johnny Ive, like, are you that excited if it's just on him? Because we've seen what happens when he has that level of power and it didn't really go well at Apple. So yeah, maybe. But I'm sure they will recruit some great people.

Just to go through a few points. You mentioned the gold Apple Watch. Lots of people bring up the gold Apple Watch. Gold Apple Watch was ridiculous. However, it was alongside the Apple watch, the Apple watch, which is a product which functionally basically the same since it started, right? Like he was ridiculous in making a gold one. Uh, but the product was still good. Right? Yeah. Oh, my, my point there, my point there is more, I wonder how, how connected Johnny remains to regular people, um, given so how, how it's, you know, a $2,000 jacket and a collab with Ferrari.

Are any people who make hardware like connected to regular people, like the types of salary you've been to Apple park, they're not regular people there, right? Like they're not a, nevermind. Never. Like who are we? Regular people? Probably park. They're not regular people there, right? Like they're not a neighbor of mine. Neither are you like who we regular people. Probably not. Right. Like you said, I don't know what that means.

Okay. All right. I think, I think that there's a real difference between living in Silicon Valley, which is a bubble into itself and you know, having the king and Ferrari as clients and, and stuff like that. It's a smaller bubble, right? That's for sure. A world of high design that Sir Johnny floats in.

Of course, I read enough of his stuff to know that he is about as high on your own supply as a designer can be, right? Yep. Now, I like to read that stuff. It's a good supply, is that the argument? I mean, but it's why I like designers in general tend to be because you kind of have to be because you have to, you have to, as a designer, most of the time,

sell your product to someone else, right? You're constantly selling your idea to someone. And so you have to really believe in yourself. Anyway, the car, you mentioned the driverless car. Yeah, ridiculous, but consider the source. That's the information we know. That might have been one of the 12 ideas, right? One of the ideas is driverless. It could be. We don't know anything about it.

All I can do is look at what we know about the 15 years at Apple that Johnny I was there without Steve and make some guesses. Somebody could come to me and say, look, look, I'm Johnny's best friend. And I worked with him at Apple every step of the way. And Johnny was always saying, no, no, no, don't do that. Highfalutin like nonsense.

We need to ground this and be more like what Steve would want and, and what regular people would want. And, you know, they could, they could say that I just based on the, the evidence and the reports, I don't believe it. I just don't believe it so vision pro it is what it is right that's what it is however remember the reporting and we all agree to this idea at the time and I think we still do now what that shouldn't have been which is the thing that he vetoed is that there is a piece of hardware in your house and it beamed

to the vision pro apparently Johnny was the one who came in and said, no, you can't do that. If you can't put it all on the thing, you can't make it. So that was some reporting at the time, which I agree with. Right, right. He's also responsible for the screens that face out that show your eyes though. Yeah, which is a ridiculous idea, but you know, who knows?

And the 3D knitted band on the back, which is probably incredibly expensive to make. I'm sure Johnny on time Jason I'm just trying to give my rebuttals here Nobody's perfect His portfolio is unmatched Right like and I know I understand what you're saying in the last 15 years. What has he done the Apple watch?

Yeah, right. That was probably the last success Conceited yeah, it. Because it's not my point, but yes, I will concede absolutely that this guy is a legend. I said that in my article too. Absolutely a legend. And rightfully so. Absolutely. One of the things that is intriguing to me is like a quote from the New York Times, I shoulder a lot of responsibility for what these things, the iPhone, have brought us. And something I find interesting in that, well, one is fascinating to me as time goes on the amount of people involved in the iPhone who regret it. Like someone from a long time ago who shared this, do you remember Lauren Brickter who created Tweety? Yep. So this is like the Twitter client. Twitter ended up buying it actually. It was like a third

party Twitter client. But Lauren invented Porta Refresh and regretted it so much later on. And it is really intriguing. Like I find it kind of a fascinating thing don't forget the floppy bird guy I mean I made a addictive game and was like I regret everything take it away so I find I find that interesting right that like and wonder like the thing is if if He has ideas like genuinely feels like he has a whole set of new ideas. I want to see what they are I don't think that they'll, I don't believe they will necessarily be good.

But if Johnny has taken all this time away from creating consumer technology, and now is like, I wanna get back in this game in a big way, I am very intrigued to see what ideas he has. And that's kind of my conceit for this. I don't think it's all gonna be good. I'm just intrigued to see what it is he says and does. I'm very interested in what this is and what it does. I just, I felt like there was a real groundswell of, Oh, amazing, amazing. Welcome back. This is going to be so great. And I'm

like, it's a, for all the reasons detailed, it's really just kind of an empty announcement about people that I'm very skeptical about doing the work. But do I want to see it? Of course. Yes, it will be. This is like you saying, I love everything he says and all those interviews and all that is like, I find it fascinating, but I do not love it. But like, am I glad that he surfaces for his desert island discs? Of course.

Of course I am. I don't agree with everything he says. I just love that we get to hear him. Cause this was my thing about Johnny is I always assumed he had things to say because of course he did. He would pop up in the white room and talk, but he never spoke outside, right? Ever. He never gave interviews, nothing. And one of the things that I've been happy about in his post-Apple life is he's talking. Like it gives me the potential of a thing that I hope one day, which is the man writes a book, right?

Cause I want to read that book. And I feel like that, that possibility would cost a thousand dollars for the paperback. But like, I feel like we're getting closer now to the possibility of him actually doing that because he's opening up now in a way that he never did before. I think we have, as we often do, we've settled on us on we're in a similar place, which is like I'm very, we're very intrigued to see what comes of this. Yeah. Get your popcorn ready.

Get your popcorn ready. Absolutely. That's what that this is what my kind of the core from it for me is like my optimism is just in that I am excited about whatever this is, whether it's good, bad, forgettable, like, because that is just interesting to me. This is like what I said about the vision pro. Like I didn't think necessarily it was going to work, but whether it worked or it didn't work was going to interesting. Oh, absolutely. Worth analyzing and worth considering. I mean, that's actually why I thought

the Humane AI pin was interesting too, is because it was a lot to think about. I don't disagree with any of that. I just, really my reaction is more to the fact that I think I just got finally fed up with two organizations or at least two trends, Johnny Ive, the hype bubble around Johnny Ive wherever he goes, and the AI hype machine. And they came together in this and everybody is out there reacting to it like just it feels

like deeply uncritically to me. And I'm like, am I missing it? And I spent a couple of days thinking about it. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm not feeling it. I don't think this has got a good chance of being a thing. Not to say that I'm not interested because I love a game on moment and this feels like a game on moment, right?

Although we will have to pivot to talking about what this means for Apple in a minute because I am a little puzzled about that part of it. Um, but anyway, like you should, you should keep your optimism because I think there's a difference between thinking, I don't think this is anything that's going to succeed and they shouldn't do it and I don't want to see it. That is so not true. I absolutely want to see it. That is so not true. I absolutely want to see it.

And honestly, one of the things I came to in my piece was, look, do I think that Johnny Ive is the person to lead this effort? I do not. However, if he has a different worldview than he did a few years ago, and has brought in a bunch of people who are not as famous and rich,

and are hungrier than he is. And he's the elder statesman who is actually sliding into that Steve Jobs role a little bit of telling a young designer, yes and no, slow your roll. Not that, but this. Could they succeed? Of course, of course. And they're gonna have the money,

they're gonna have the talent. Of course they could succeed. I'm course, of course. And they're gonna have the money, they're gonna have the talent. Of course they could succeed. I'm really skeptical of it and I don't think that anything we've seen so far changes my opinion about that. But I'd like to see them try. I'd like to see a bunch of brilliant people try to do it. I'm also, I should say,

when I say get the band back together, that doesn't always go very well. I worry that this is a bunch of people who made a lot of money at Apple who are now gonna try to do it again And you could say yeah, but they're all brilliant and they did it once so they'll do it again Maybe or maybe that's exactly who won't do it again. The conditions are not the same so it can't suggest anything, right? Like it's like these people have a great portfolio, but this is a completely different ballgame

Like this is a completely different game and it's 20 years later Yeah and I this is a completely different game. And it's 20 years later. Yeah. And I, I do believe like in the thing that you positioned that whether he is successful in it or not, I think he is setting himself up to be the, like, just the overseer in that he is not joined OpenAI, right? And that he is continuing to work on love from work, right? But like he, and again, some people could see that he's always one foot in, one foot out on that. And it's like, I could understand that, but I could imagine it's a scenario of like, I do not need to be involved in this every day. I will be the person that meets with everyone. And I say, this is good, this is not, this is good,

this is not that kind of thing. But who knows? I have no idea. Like we don't know, how would we know? And I guess all of this is to say, we're talking purely about the hypothetical. Who even knows? Who even knows if an AI powered piece of hardware

could ever work or be interesting in any way? We don't know that. The thing that gives me the most pause about all of this is I have racked my brain trying to think of what this thing could be. And so is everybody else, right? And then they say, oh well, but it's not that, right? And I was like, oh, okay, it's not that, then what is it? they have come up with something that is beyond my imagination. And I see it and I go, oh, of course. Then that'll be a really amazing moment.

However, I spent two days trying to think about this and I can't get there. So like, but I'm leaving over the possibilities. Like maybe they have really, you know, cracked it. They've really figured it out. And they're like, this is the thing that we wanna do. I also say a lot of praise out there for Sam Altman that I think is not justified, but I will say this.

I thought the positioning of we're not coming for your laptop, we're not coming for your devices, this is meant to be us adding something wonderful and new to the world, I think that's brilliant positioning. Yes. Because it's saying we're not trying to be a computer or iPhone killer. Don't measure us that way. What we're gonna do is different and it's not meant to change the world in ways that you can't understand because your computer will be gone or you're what like Sam Altman is sitting there

with a MacBook Pro and he's like MacBook Pro is fine right like I think that's a that's a masterful piece of positioning for them so I'm gonna give him credit for that even though I don't think he's, um, a product design genius or anything. And I think the chat GPT has kind of fell into their product, but they've got a good product, but they fell into it. They didn't like, they were lucky to do it, but they did do it. And it's a residue of the other choices that he made, but I'm not sure I would

call them a product genius, uh, even, even close to even in the same, you know, universe as Steve Jobs, but that positioning of don't judge us as the secret stealth project that's going, don't, we're not a segue, right? Remember, it was like, oh, they're going to, the it is going to come out and it's going to change how transportation in inner cities works. And then it was a segue and everybody's like, what? Like, don't do that. And so they didn't do that. They said, no, we're not going to, we're not going to take your laptop away. That's not the goal of this. That's smart. That's super smart. It seems like apparently that is his skill set. Like the more I hear people talk

about him, he's just like, he's just very good at making you believe something, right? Cause it was just why he can get infinite money. He's very good at getting investments. And that this is essentially he's trying to get the world to like invest their intention into this project of like, oh, we're just going to make a third thing. My, my expectation for what this is, by the way, is it's just a little like, like, like honestly a pebble, like a stone. And sometimes it's in your pocket. Sometimes it's on the desk. Sometimes it's strapped to something. Sometimes it's around your neck. So like essentially like the AI pin, but I don't think it has a screens.

I don't think it has. Sometimes it's attached to a drone that is hovering around you at all times. Maybe, right? But like it is in the John Syracuse parlance, the naked robotic core. That's what I think this little thing is. And maybe you and you kind of interact with it. But really, you're just having conversations with it all the time. And and really, it's it's just an interface for all of the stuff that chat GPT will be able

to do by 2027, which is when this product will be announced anyway. Do you think that Tim could convince Donald Trump that the iPhone's coming in from China and India are just naked robotic cores? I think he could try. I think he could try. But his son, but Baron is standing in the corner going, he's lying to you, Dad. Don't believe him. He's like, oh, no. The kid got me.

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Vitali is offering a free pair of AirPods Pro for every upgrade listener who books a qualified meeting. So if you're a customer success decision maker, schedule your call today by going to vitally.io.upgradefm. That's vitally V-I-T-A-L-L-Y vitally.io.upgradefm for a free pair of AirPods Pro when you schedule a qualified meeting. Our thanks to Vitally for their support of this show and Relay. I want to talk a little bit about the effect that I, what this means for Apple, right? Because there is an Apple story here, obviously, because there is Johnny Ive now has gone and done. Johnny Ive wanted to get back into technology and he didn't go back to Apple. He did not fulfill on the

collaborative partnership that Tim Cook said that they would have when he left. Speaking of marketing BS, yes. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. So I want to start with the, the multi industry dynamic here before we talk about like inside, what does Apple want to do and how do they want to work with, with chat, GPT, open AI IO, which is the larger dynamic. So Microsoft is a huge investor in open AI. Sort of, right? And again, there's a public benefit corporation

and there's a nonprofit and it's a whole mess. There's a way out, like open AI have a way out of that relationship. Yeah, yeah. So, and the Microsoft relationship actually like, Microsoft and Apple compete in some areas, but in most areas they don't They're not it's not like that anymore of them. I think that they really are more friends than enemies now I I think you're right. I think even

Other than if somebody they tried to do a deal and somebody was like, wait a second This is all desktop computers now and even then they might be like yeah, but desktop computers who needs them But but here's the thing that I keep coming back to, which is OpenAI's greatest competitor is Google. Last week, Google I.O. happened. There's so many IOs. Last week, Google I.O. happened. And we're not talking about it because of this Johnny Ive

thing. Well played, I guess. But Google is all in on AI. Google, after being a little skeptical of it, and playing that game of like, oh, but if we do this, we'll kill our search revenue, is now full Steve Jobs, where full iPod Nano, where they're like, well, our search revenue is going away. Anyway, so we better be the replacement. And they announced like three different replacements for it at IO. But anyway, they are open AI's biggest threat, I think.

And Google owns Android. Yes. Google owns Android. And I know Android can be modified and it's open and all of these things, right? I hope you heard my rolling eyes when I said open, but yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So you could build something on Android, everybody does it, and have it not be Android or not be Google Android and be different and all that. It's fine, you could do that, nobody

I could do that. And this embedded device that they're making might even have Android. I was thinking probably at its core this could be Android unless Johnny just can't bring himself to do it. I mean, maybe. I mean, but if it's Android, but you strip everything out of it that you don't want, then you know, fine. It's an open source operating system. It's humane.

Humane built their own OS. No, I know that's not a lot to say, but it's like, no, there are some companies, they can't bring themselves to do it. Maybe they can build on Darwin. But this is my point is chat GPT is the leader, but Google Gemini is coming on strong and there are other players too. I know, but I'm just saying if you think about it, if the maker of Android is one of the major players in the AI space, literally everybody else should want to make deals with Apple because the smartphone is the place to be. And Apple is struggling in AI right now.

And I do not know why there isn't, and perhaps there is somewhere, a line out the door at Apple Park with the owners and board members and CEOs of every other AI company. Good point. Because, and I'm not saying that Apple needs to buy an AI company, maybe they do.

Maybe that would be a cultural infusion, or maybe they would buy it and destroy it with their own cultural, like who knows? But what I'm saying is, if I'm an AI company, and I think smartphones are huge and are gonna be around for a while, which they are, I don't like that Google is going to inject their AI everywhere in Android. And I know, yes, again, maybe you make a deal with Samsung that's a

little bit different and all that, but like really it's a super big threat. One of your two big members of the duopoly of smartphones has their own thing that they're going to prefer. So Apple, like this is the thing that is curious, right? It's like they're gonna make this thing and it's not inside Apple, it's inside OpenAI, but it's got a bunch of Apple people at it. And like does Apple view them as a competitor or is it additive? My guess is that if it's a thing that resembles anything Apple is selling guess is that if it's a thing that resembles

anything Apple is selling, they'll view it as a competitor. But also they made their first external AI deal with OpenAI. Surely everybody at I.O. recognizes the place that Apple holds in society. And when they talk about Apple products by name in that video, like it's very clear that they're sending that signal that they get it. So what does that mean?

Do they think they don't need Apple in any way because it's a post smartphone world? They're saying it's not, right? They are saying it's not whether they believe it or not. But they're saying it's not right. And i have to believe even if we replace the smartphone with something in 10 years or 20 years there's going to be a ramp to it and and ramping off of the smartphone to lead to the thing is probably what you would do to get there so you know right you're not going to like there's one day where you pitch your smartphone and replace it with a Dealey from iO right like you're gonna it's gonna work with it. So anyway, I want to set that as the stage here because What I find interesting about this and a bit of a head scratcher is open ai and apple to me are natural Partners. Yes, because they're not they're not google

Yeah, I want to add on onto what you were saying about, about Google and the threat of Android, which is how close Google and Samsung have become in the last few years. Google and Samsung were at odds for a long time and they are now incredibly close. They're strategizing together. They're clearly strategizing together.

They develop products together, they develop hardware and software in lockstep and Google pays Samsung an obscene amount of money. I don't know what the amount is, but people would say it's a very large amount of money to embed Gemini into Samsung phones because essentially Android is Samsung, right? To the consumer. Like, you know, Android, Samsung sells so many Android phones and Samsung is the biggest competitor to Apple. They are the two biggest device makers, right?

Like their, their devices sell the most. And so it really is Samsung and Google versus Apple and everyone else, everyone else as a great point. And yes, it makes so much sense for open AI and Apple to work together. The ship has sailed on one buying the other, right? We'd have a way around it goes now because obviously open AI could never buy Apple, but open AI is not too expensive. Whatever correctly or not, they just are.

And I don't even think that it makes sense to do it. But I wonder as you wondered and me and you were talking about this in the last couple of days, is there a partnership that makes sense here where these products could tie into the iPhone in a way that we have not seen other products and like why would Apple do this? Right? Well, so let me, let me sketch this. Let me sketch this for you. First off, I, I really believe that with all the compute and the battery and the software and the connectivity that smartphones aren't going anywhere. Cause like you can put a cell modem and a processor in these little things, but oh my God, then you're, you know,

you've got a separate cell plan and is it talking to your phone at all? And how, or is it only in the cloud services and what's going on there? So the smartphone, very powerful. And then Apple is making all these other constellation of devices, right? Your watch, your AirPods, maybe glasses in the

future, right? Those are all going to be connected to Siri and Apple intelligence either in the cloud or on the smartphone. Okay, so if they're making one of those, Apple's like, we really want to sell more Apple watches, but if they're not making one of those, if their pitch is no, we want to make a different kind of product, and your Apple, maybe you say, look, we're obviously headed in this direction too, but we're not making a product like you are right now, and more broadly we have a partnership. People are going to use open AI products on our all of our devices, easy for me to say.

People are going to use open AI products on our devices and easy for me to say, people are gonna use OpenAI products on our devices. And we wanna make those integrated even better than they already are. They can use our stuff, they can use your stuff, it's great. Your state of the art, we love you. They say all of that. And they're like, okay, so what we want, if you're Apple, is we'll make your dingus work with our stuff,

but your dingus needs to be it works both ways. Your dingus needs to be best. It needs to be good. But our Apple Watch or our glasses or our AirPods or just our phone also need to be that good. It needs to work both ways. We'll give you access. But we want it both ways. because if people don't want a dingus and they just want to watch or they just want AirPods or whatever, we want it to run both ways. There is an argument to be made there. Also, as it's sitting in our notes, it's been here

all along, we should say there may be some very serious legal reasons why Apple is going to have to open up its APIs to things like smartwatches and other devices like that. Like the department of justice. In some markets. And if that's the case, then the jig is up a little bit with something like this, where, you know, OpenAI could say, well, we are kind of like an Apple watch. So we should be able to connect and take calls

and, you know, share the same phone number and use the APIs and all of that. But, you know, again, if I'm OpenAI, and maybe if I'm Apple, but definitely if I'm OpenAI, I wanna have that conversation with Apple. I wanna say, we want to be number one on your platform. We wanna be the best. And we would like our thing to be the best on your platform

because we'll work with Android, but like, you know Google, you know they're doing their own thing. So it's a really interesting question. I feel like open AI kind of needs in this moment, kind of needs Apple more than Apple needs open AI, because Apple could say, we can build whatever you're building. They could say that. But I think both companies would probably be stronger if they work together, even if they can't, you know, merge with each other. I think that they would probably be stronger

if they work together, even if they can't merge with each other, I think that they would probably be stronger if they work together. Yeah. And they can use this as an opportunity to do the thing that they might be forced to do. And I think if Apple were to create a set of API, maybe an SDK, whatever it might be, it actually provides them with a competitive advantage for the next wave of devices. I think the last two years, last year, should have shown Apple that maybe they're not, and maybe they don't need to be best placed technology wise

to deal with this next wave of computing, but they can continue to provide the necessary platform for that. So like, you know, everyone's talking about how great max have become for running models and like they're very power efficient and you can do a lot of it locally and they've happened to fall into that because of Apple Silicon. Well, great. Just harness that then. And like similarly, like you create a set of APIs, which are super good at integrating these new batch of devices, whatever they might be, including something like the RayBans, right? Like you, all of that stuff and then you become the platform that is necessary for this new way for devices to work. And you can also continue making

your stuff, but then it doesn't need to be all on you. And perhaps that is also a way for you to blunt some of like, Meta Ray Bans, right? They want you to be in Facebook's cloud, right? If you're Apple and you're like, oh, well, we've created APIs now, so the Meta Ray Bans can just pair to the iPhone. But when they do that, now the grip on you from Meta is less. Yeah. Right. Because now there's Apple stuff in there.

And Meta is more like a maker of sunglasses than it is and maybe an AI provider, but that's it. And you potentially say, like, there's nothing stopping Apple from developing more AI models. I mean, one of the strategies here might be, you keep working on your models. And I hate to say it, but it's actually a little like CarPlay Ultra, where it's like,

the car's got to have an infotainment system, right? A default. And then somebody can bring their own if they want to. And that's CarPlay Ultra and it lays on top. But there has to be something underneath because you can't have a car that can't be used unless you've got a modern iPhone with a current version, et cetera, et cetera.

So this is a little like that, which is like, Apple's not gonna ship an iPhone without an AI model and without private cloud compute models, honestly going forward, because I think because of the whole security and privacy kind of thing. I think Apple is going to continue to build its own models and it should but like that doesn't preclude them from also saying use whatever model you want and if one of the models takes off Apple's like

we're there it just plugs in and then you know use that one and if you're like I don't like those guys they invested somewhere that I don't like, or they did some marketing that I thought was gross. I'm gonna switch to these guys. Apple will be like, great, just, you know, you cancel your subscription with them, you start up with them, you flip the switch here, and now you're using their models on your iPhone. And it's fun, right?

This scenario that we're positioning would be so funny because it would mean that Apple became the open company. Like anyone, we're welcome anyone, But maybe that's where they are. I'm sure Google will do it too, right? But Google seems like much more of a threat than Apple does. Google, Google will have the opportunity to make a decision. Having a good AI model is existential for Google and it's not existential for Apple. Apple can partner.

They can do it. Yeah. They could do it different ways. Google's fundamental business is at risk. Apple's is not at risk. It's not as much of a risk. There is a potential for risk, right? There is.

Of course. Google's is current. Their risk is now. We're hearing it. We. We're seeing Google's house is on fire. Yes. Apple's isn't Apple's house is on a cliff with a, maybe there could be a landslide or an earthquake sometime, but Google's house is literally on fire. All of, all of Apple's current problems are actually not to do AI, right? Like real, the things that are actually affecting them, like, you know,

from a marketing perspective, they look silly, they look ridiculous, like whatever, but nothing's, that's not gonna stop people from buying iPhones. Like their problems are the Google search deal, the falling apart of the app store, all that kind of stuff. Sure, sure. But even if you take all of that out

and you look at their business in selling hardware, it's a pretty good business and the only way that it's going away is if either smartphones go away or Apple's products are so limited that people stop buying iPhones and only buy Android phones because Apple's limited. So you could argue that although there's the pride of building it yourself and maybe your long-term goal is they're not nobody's gonna need a third party, it's competition, right?

Which they don't like, but nobody's gonna need a third party because our base models are gonna be so good that it doesn't matter. But, you know, like when they added Outlook support or Exchange support to the iPhone, they were like, yeah, but sometimes your company wants this or that. And so you let them, right? Like they can have that as the goal,

that the base is so good that you don't need anything else. But in the meantime, you open it up to everybody. And at that point, like if you've got really nice hardware and people are comfortable with your operating system and they have an Apple watch or AirPods and they like those too, and your preferred AI, whatever it is works great with it, like you're still going to buy an iPhone and Apple's still going to be happy about it. So a lot less existential, not to say that the iPhone is forever, but Google

has to press and Google, like you were saying, Google will have to make a decision about how open do you want to be when you need this to work for your business? You need Google search to be replaced with Google AI search, or you're losing all of your revenue. Where Apple can, you know, they'll lose a big chunk of their revenue if the Google search gets replaced, but they can replace it with chat GPT search, complexity search, and it doesn't affect them. It doesn't affect the core. People still buy the iPhone and you know what they make a ton of money from selling iPhones. Like that's where the money comes from. It's from selling the iPhones.

And yeah, this, this scenario means that the iPhone continues to be a very important part of the puzzle and of all of the potential companies that you could imagine them working with. Why not the one where they already have an existing partnership and the other one is the guy, right? Like, would you work with Johnny again? Do you know him and trust him? Like, it's, you know, that like, you can imagine, or you can imagine a scenario where is this going to be the company that screws us? Maybe it's less likely if it's Johnny. Like, I don't know, but like, you can imagine that there is a different interpersonal scenario going on here.

Think about the idea that Apple execs are talking to IO and talking to Sam Altman and Johnny and under you know strict secrecy they get a first glimpse about what this thing is and Apple says oh we're not gonna make anything like that that's actually good right that's that's Apple saying we don't think that's worth the investment. We've got our other platforms, we're going in a bunch of different areas. That is not a thing we're ever gonna make. That's good.

And again, is that part of what I.O. and OpenAI are saying when they say, oh, it's not this and it's not that, and you get to keep your MacBook Pro and all that? On one level, I think that's what they're saying is, look, we're not making something that Apple is planning on making. That's not what we're trying to do here. And who knows? Who knows? But if that was the case, then Apple would probably be a lot less likely to be like, oh, you're trying to do something completely different from where we're trying to go. And that's fine. We'll work together. That's great. Because, you know, our Apple Watch gets better when we're working with you and our AirPods work better when we're working with you.

The danger here is that Apple's like no, all of this is existential. We have to build it ourselves. And I know there's that maxim that comes back to like when the Mac was being judged based on the performance of Internet Explorer and Apple did Safari because they're like we have to control and people call, I think they call that the Cook Doctrine, but like it dates to Steve Jobs. It's very much we got to control the things that matter if we can, right? Because there's that. If you can, you got to try. Well, having an AM model is, and if we can, but having, that doesn't preclude you from opening it up and saying, look, we're gonna work with other devices and we're gonna work with other models because what we're gonna do, because that's not a thing

we can control right now, right? And we'll try, like Safari when it came out was like, okay, this is interesting. And over time it got better and that happens a lot too, but you can have that project running and still work with others in the background. So it's a risk that Apple is like, no, no, no, no, no, no, we got this covered. But I feel like there's a real opportunity because I do feel like if you look at what Google is doing,

everybody else is not Google. So they should probably be working together. This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN. Going online without ExpressVPN is like leaving a door unlocked when you leave your house. Most of the time, you're fine. But what about the risk that someone untrustworthy is around? When you connect to an unencrypted network in cafes, hotels, airports, your online data is not secure. Someone on the same network could gain access to your information, passwords, bank logins, credit card information and other things you don't want in someone else's hands. ExpressVPN stops hackers, bad people from stealing your data by creating a secure encrypted tunnel

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those networks, I don't own those networks so how can I be sure about it? And then also I can continue doing whatever it is I want to do. I can record podcasts, no problem. I'm not having latency issues and the connection is not bad. I can watch video, it's simple to do and it makes it easy and it's just keeping that peace of mind. It's just something I don't have to worry about and I don't want to worry about. Secure your online data today by visiting expressvpn.com slash upgrade. That's E-X r e s s vpn.com slash upgrade to find out how you can get up to four extra months free. That is expressvpn.com slash upgrade. Our thanks to expressvpn for this, for supporting this show and all of Relay. It's rumor roundup time, Jason Snell. I have two rumors today for you that are connected

to the conversations that we've been having. So, so first up comes from Mark Gurman. They're actually both from Mark Gurman today, obviously. Uh, of course, Mark reported that Apple is accelerating its plans for smart glasses now aiming to release their first pair by the end of 2026. Uh, accelerate. They're not going to meet my deadline of 2025, but I think this shows you how long it takes for Apple to make a product.

It's not easy. So as you'd expect, Apple are targeting to do essentially what Meta is doing, cameras, microphones, speakers, with support for talking to Siri and Apple intelligence or within a pair of glasses. This product is not expected to feature any kind of display like what Google is doing with their XR project that they showed off for I.O. Of course, this is Apple's goal in the future for full AR glasses. Apparently, Mark said that Meta is expected to be shipping something with some kind of display in 2025. My thought on this is, all right, great. Like this is the product

that we want, like meet them where they are. By the time they get this product out, most likely Mata and Google will both be shipping products that have all these features plus some kind of display technology. Yeah, I mean we'll see, but that is, and I think when you say their goal is full AR I think that there that is the end goal. Yeah First you I think the question is gonna be they're gonna look at what meta and Google are doing and saying okay should our first one have a little Screeny spot on it like those where it's not full AR, but there's like a little place a little dynamic island where where we can put

visual information separate or do we start with product one and then go on to product two because I'm sure that Apple is well aware that the next step is to have some visual indication in there because you can't go to full AR it's gonna take years to get there but you could do what the competitors do. A display kind of look at the ambient info. Yeah. Yeah, just a little bit. It really is like a notification center or like it's a little

tiny dab of screen in the way that it's been described by the people who've tried it and it's a nice idea and it's like, well, that's something we can do today is essentially what they're saying. We can't do a whole thing thing but we can do this little thing that when it's on you can they can put some some images on it or some text on it or whatever it's not a full screen it's not a vision pro it's literally like a little thing in your in the corner of your vision that you know like little

aliens are beaming you messages that's a spoilers for the three-body problem anyway yeah that's the question, right? Like, so if you're Apple, do you say, look, we got to start somewhere, we're going to start with this thing. And we know that that's where they're going. And we're going there too. But we're going to start with this thing. Or are we going to hear in six months that from Mark Gurman that Apple actually has two different models in the works, one of which has a display and one of which is does doesn't. And then we hear a month later that they've decided to ship the one with the display in late 2026 instead of shipping the one without the display in mid-2026 because they've decided that they need to go there.

That, it wouldn't shock me if that's what ends up happening here because that's their decision, right? It's like ship the simpler thing or kind of leap over it and go to the one and that a lot of that it depends on Apple's internal like, is that screen any good? Like they might try to be like, oh, it's not good enough. Let's just ship this thing and we'll work on one that's better because Apple does that, right? Where sometimes their competitors ship something and everybody's like, why isn't Apple doing it? And Apple says, Yeah, we looked at that and we don't like it. And maybe they're

right. Maybe they're wrong. but like that can happen where they look at what, uh, what meta or Google is doing and go, we tried that. It's not very good. People like that is not, it's not good. We could do better. And that's a tough decision for them to make that as part of this product reshuffling, apple have shelved their plans for an apple watch of a camera. Thank God. Thank God. No more, no up the nose FaceTime for you.

Here's my question, Jason. Will they still ship AirPods with cameras? Which is a thing that was- German says, German says they're still working on it. That article says they're still working on that. I know. So maybe. But I wonder if they will. Like, because- So, here's the

thing. We've been talking about this mythical forthcoming I.O. product, right? Yeah. It's very clear that you have to have devices with cameras that that will feed AI. Because it's useful. Who is that person? What is that sign? Where are we right now in cities? They use cameras to because the GPS isn't reliable to look at the buildings and go I know exactly where we are to translate Written things to have a microphone that's not in your pocket So it can hear things right like there are lots of reasons to have a device

With a camera that can see the glasses are one of them. The question is, can you do AirPods where they actually work, where they aren't occluded by hair, you know, that it's actually useful to get something out of it? I am skeptical, but I see what they're trying. I'm just skeptical. And if they're doing the glasses, maybe they don't need to do the AirPods. skeptical and if they're doing the glasses maybe they don't need to do the air pods I don't know I don't know because because that's that's a slot that's something like an IO product could slot in if it's got a camera on it right like so you know there is a there is an ergonomic issue too which is like

if you have a shirt pocket or do you clip it on your shirt like a like an iPod shuffle or something like that. Like probably you need something like that if you're thinking about an AI world. And if they don't have the glasses on and lots of people have AirPods, is that a place? It feels, to me, it comes down to, they have to build it and see if it gives them anything they can use or not.

I have a hard time imagining it, but maybe they figured out how to do it. Mark Gurman is also reporting a few pieces of news for WWDC this year. One is that the Apple Watch and Apple TV are going to see the touch of a big redesign like the other platforms. Previously, Mark was unsure of how much change these platforms would see. This is interesting because I feel like the Apple Watch has already gone through a pretty Previously, Mark was unsure of how much change these platforms would see. This is interesting because I feel like the Apple Watch has already gone through a pretty big UI change in the last year or two.

It may just be some visual alignment to make them all seem more of a kind and that it's a light touch on the Apple Watch and the Vision Pro, which is why Mark Gurman hadn't heard that, but there's still going to be something. It's not necessarily radical, but they want them all to sort of feel like they're part of the family. And also that Apple is planning on making their AI models open to developers to build within their own applications. This will be starting with the models that run on device, not the private cloud compute

models. I think this is really interesting. I would be really intrigued to see what developers would be able to do with these models. I think this is really interesting. I would be really intrigued to see what developers would be able to do with these models. Like what can you use them for? Because if the models are decent enough, it could be a big benefit for a lot of use cases. Cheaper for developers and customers who don't have to supplement and like pay for third-party API models, right? Because their developers are paying JTBT API cost and also running on devices is better for the environment. Yeah, yeah, it comes down to how good the models are.

But I think a bunch of us talked about this, Ben Thompson has written about this a lot, empowering app developers on your platform to build AI based features without having to bring your own model. And I would say also running your model as an app on an iPhone versus running the model provided by Apple, probably it will run better and it may be allowed to run longer than a model that's being run by an app where the system may kill it. I feel like there are probably some real advantages to using the API's for Apple's own models. I think it's great news. I mean whether people will use it or not it depends on the inclination of the

people and on how good the models are. Apparently constantly being updated, that's great. But I love this idea. I love the idea because empowering app developers to build clever, interesting apps that use AI in different ways on your platform, leveraging the fact that you've got models that run on your device and that your devices have a lot of computing power built into them because of Apple Silicon, all of these things are good.

Right? Like this is, and honestly, I could have probably predicted this a year ago because this tends to be what Apple does, right? They're like, well, this year it's for us because we're still figuring it out. Next year we open it up. Barely, barely. Yeah, well, I know.

Well, that's, I mean, this is the, this is the whole sweet solution thing, right? Which is the iPhone came out and everybody's like why isn't there an app store and they're like look We are barely holding it together as it is We don't we don't know what we're doing give us some time and you know the next year there was an app store Because they were ready. This is a little like that. We just like look We've just spent you know, very short amount of time getting any AI in here at all spent a very short amount of time getting any AI in here at all. Give us a moment. But I think we've all come to assume the worst about so much of Apple behavior because of Apple's track record

that we look at this and are they really going to give developers anything? It's like, well, they should. So good news, they are. I hope it's good. I hope the APIs are thoughtful. I hope the models are useful. And I hope that app developers can say, oh this is great because I was considering having to bring in a model that would run on the device inside my app that was bad or have to use a cloud model that I don't like or have to create a premium subscription tier so that I can go out to the cloud to use these APIs. Or there are features I have the idea for that I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to do because I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to afford them because I don't know if my customers are gonna want them and then I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to do, because I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to afford them. Because I don't know if my customers are gonna want them,

and then I'm kind of stuck paying for these keys. Yeah, I just need a little scrap of AI here to do this little bit. It's like, you can't. And honestly, this is, we joke about some of the bad implementations of Apple features, but like, if somebody else wants to use the summarization AI

in their interface, they should be allowed to do that, right? Like they should be allowed to do that. We and it should be better. Yes, of course, but like right now You can't right you can't do it. So yes, of course They should be allowed to do that and and again, I want to emphasize you could do it with a model that you put on the device from somewhere, but that's not gonna be that you put on the device from somewhere, but that's not gonna be the same as using the blessed Apple API, Apple model

on a device that might kill your app if you use too much power, right? Like there are a lot of advantages to a blessed AI model running on device from Apple. Yep. All right, let's finish out with an Ask Upgrade question for today's show. Okay. Thank you. That's kind of a prompt for Upgrade question for today's show. Okay.

Thank you. That's kind of a prompt for the lasers. I can't believe it. A single laser is what I was thinking. It's a single Ask Upgrade, so is there just one laser or are there many lasers? Because I'm over lasering it at that point. So, yeah, you don't want to like people. I don't know if that was a thing that like the amount of lasers equated to the amount

of questions. I'm just wasting energy. Exactly. I'm wasting power. You don't want to do it. thing that like the amount of lasers equated to the amount of questions. I'm just wasting energy. Exactly. I'm wasting power. You don't want to do these are on device lasers. Yeah. The number of lasers does not correspond to the number of questions, but I'm just saying, you know, if there's one, if there's only one question, maybe there should only be one. We'll work on it. We'll figure it out. And we get lots of questions. Again, please continue sending in your questions by going

to upgradefeedback.com and send them in. The reason we have one question today is because we keep running really long on the show, but the summer of fun is coming, so there will be lots of time to answer lots of questions. All ask upgrade. But I wanted to do this one today because it was related. This question came from Matt who says, Mike, what are your thoughts on the Meta Ray bands, and have they changed or all given recent life changes?

Congratulations. Thank you, Matt. Okay. I've been considering them for a while as a way to get video of my daughter without having to get my phone out or stay more present in the moment. So the camera is fine. It's not great. It's okay. And the framing sometimes is weird. It's actually one of the things that I think does look pretty clever about the Google XR glasses that they showed off at IO is you get a tiny view find and it pops up. Could be helpful because the camera in these glasses are not where you would usually put a camera right like next to your eye like it's a even even if you're looking at something it isn't

you've kind of got to move your head to the side a little bit if you really want to get the camera on it. However I get lots of fun little shots that I wouldn't get otherwise of things that I just wouldn't take a picture of because I couldn't get my camera in time. However, what I'll say, since having the baby, I've appreciated a whole different function that's available in my Ray-Bans, which is the audio function. So you can listen to things through the, it has little speakers and those speakers go down at your ears. And I had previously thought, why would I use these? I have my AirPods pro significantly better. Um, what I have been more comfortable with if I'm taking the baby out in the buggy or something,

I want to have my ears completely unblocked so I can hear her. And I just feel more comfortable with that. And so I've been listening to podcasts through the Meta Ray Bands because you can listen at lower volumes and still have complete like clarity of the world. Transparency. Yeah. It's like, it's not just transparent mode. It is just fully transparent.

Literally transparent. Yep. And so that's been something that I really enjoyed and has made me feel more comfortable in doing that. So I've really valued them for that too. So yeah, really cool, really cool. When you said buggy there, did you want to say pram? No, much to the frustration of my family, I am using lots of American words for baby things. And you know, a lot of people, I get feedback, I was like, Oh, what's wrong with Mike? Why is it the problem? If you speak to Americans all the time, you will lose your words. And also my wife is an English, right? So Adina brings

American isms naturally because that's, she learned a lot of them from popular culture. So we say, and we interchange actually. I say buggy. I also say pram. I kind of code switch a little bit where I need to. I prefer to say diaper to nappy. I just don't like the way nappy sounds. Similarly, we say pacifier instead of dummy because I don't like how dummy sounds. I just don't like that word. But that's what they call pacifiers who call them dummies. Yeah. So a lot of the time I am using American words and that's just, I love this because this continues your baby class thing where people were really wondering secretly when you were in your pre-birth baby class, who the hell is this guy and where is he from? Yeah, I don't remember if I said this, but someone asked someone asked if I was from

Sweden or something like that. Cause it's like, I get this every now and then where people were like, his English is great and his accents okay enough, but he says weird. And they're trying like, are you Canadian? Like where are you from? No, born and raised in East London is what I tell people. And they never believe me. And then it didn't. And there's like a whole thing that I have to explain. You just have to say, I talk to Americans every day.

That is what I say. I say in my life, I only speak to Americans in my work. My wife is Romanian. Like I, you know, the amount of time that I actually spend talking to people in London, because that's the thing. These is honestly like most of the people I interact with, not most, so many people I interact with in London didn't grow up in London. Many of them didn't grow up in England. Right. So like it's exactly it really, it doesn't matter anymore. Here's, here's my next question, which is going to be, it will be really interesting, won't it? To see how your daughter adapts.

Oh, it's going to be hilarious. Because I know what she's like, hello, English accent like daddy. Yeah. Right. She's going to be a real Londoner. We're all going to sound different. Maybe you'll get more English when your daughter is coming home from school. Maybe. I don't know. Like we, uh, this is something that me and Idina noticed this when she was pregnant. We were on the train once and there was a couple and their child. And one of the, one of the people was clearly from France. Another person was from somewhere else in Europe,

like you could tell by their accents, but their child sounded like a cockney. And I thought that was hilarious. And like, that's just the way it goes. And that's, that's, I knew, I knew kids whose parents were immigrants growing up and they, you know, they didn't have accents at all. And then you go to their home and it's like the thick Hungarian accents and you're like, whoa. And you couldn't tell. And I had a college roommate whose parents were both from Hong Kong.

And other than the fact that he looked Chinese, like you would never, on the phone, you would never know. Like he was completely just, there was no Hong Kong detected. But then his, his dad called on the phone and it was like thick accent. And I'm like, Whoa, like it's just, that's so get ready for that. But my point here is that maybe she will make you both sound more English as time goes on. It could happen. probably not. Well, it could have not. Well, I didn't know. So she sounds less Romanian to Romanians as time has gone on. She very much decided she wasn't going to lose her accent. Like she has friends that came to

London at the same time that she did who purposefully got rid of their Romanian accent. Sure, sure, but she decided not to do it. But we'll see. Who knows? We're in a new world. Who knows? We only had time for one Ask Upgrade, and we did a whole other thing or so. You can send in your feedback, follow up, and questions by going to upgradefeedback.com.

Thank you to our members and supporters of Upgrade+. This week, we're going to do some follow up about maps. And I'm going to talk about the Indy 500. Go to getupgradeplus.com. You can sign up, get longer ad-free versions of the show each and every week. If you want to watch this show, you can do so on YouTube, where we are, the upgrade podcast, you can find us just by searching for that. Thank you to our sponsors who supported us this week, ExpressVPN, Vitaly and FitBod.

But as always, the biggest thank you goes to you for listening. Until next time, say goodbye, Jason Snow. Goodbye, my hurly.