Upgrade - 584: I'm the Apple of Lasers

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

From Relay, this is Upgrade, episode 584 for October 6th, 2025. It's Q4 now, can you believe it? This episode is brought to you by Squarespace FitBod and Delete Me. My name is Mike Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason. Hi, Mike. It's great to be here for our greatest. and most lucrative of all quarters, the holiday quarter.

Who couldn't love the holiday quarter? I have a snow talk question for you. It really puts you in the spirit, doesn't it? When you say it like that. Discuss the lucrative nature of the holiday quarter. Luca says, where do you like to sit in a movie theater? All the way in the back, somewhere in the middle, up front like a weirdo. What about Apple events, assuming you could sit anywhere?

I will say, Luca did not say weirdo. Now you've laughed at it. I would tell you what Luca actually said. Lucas said psychopath, which felt like a little bit aggressive. So I changed it to weirdo. Yeah. By the way,

the psychopath sit in the back and ponder who will be their prey. Oh, no. Yeah, I mean, have you seen a movie with a psychopath? That's what they do.

All right. I sit in the middle. In the middle. Middle, middle is basically at an Apple event. I prefer to sit further back because I don't need to get up close unless back in the day

when I used to bring a camera with a long lens and I took pictures of people on stage it was different but now there is very little of interest happens

on stage other than good morning so I don't but back in the day that's I was happy to sit a little further back

and that was okay but generally middle middle what about you Mike yeah middle middle that is the ideal and I also like movie theaters

that have sofas in the braven individual chest oh man they just retrofitted our our local movie theater with big recliners

with giant like trays for food and stuff. That also works. And they're high enough up from the next row that there's nothing the person in the row below you can do to block the screen.

And it's really sweet. It's really nice. We've not had that before here. That was really great. If you would like to send in a question to help us open a future episode of the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com and send in your Snell Talk question.

It is time for some follow-up, Before that, happy birthday, Jason! Woo! Thank you, Mike. Happy birthday, Jason, Snow. I'm working on my birthday. Like any other holiday, we work on upgrade. Yes, I will not let him take his birthday off.

Make him work double hard on his birthday, actually. Sorry, Jason. That's how it goes. That's how it goes. Happy birthday, though. Mean old Mike. I have a birthday present for you. Okay.

I installed OS, Mac OS Tahoe. I installed Tahoe. That's what about a present? Where was that going? I installed OS. Tahoe 26. Well, the rest of them are something OS-T-H-H-T-H-T-H-T-H-H-T-H-T-H-H-T-H-T-H-O-S-T-H-O-S-T-H-O-S-T-H-O-S-T-H-O-S-T-H-O-T-H-O-W-E-T-O-E-T-H-O-E-T-O-E-W-E. I have some, I have some comments and concerns, if I'm being honest. I will say that I'm not particularly happy as a Tahoe user

in ways that it may be different to other people. Overall, the UI is like, fine. It doesn't bother me. But there are things, there are decisions that are strange. So one is if you use dark mode, your widgets are in light mode, unless you have dark icons. This was something that was in one of the iOS Bayers, but they fixed it, that you could have light icons, but dark mode would make your widgets dark. It's the dark mode that's tied to the light and dark widgets, not whether your icons are light and dark. Does that make sense? So you could have light mode, and if you set your icons to be dark, it would change your widgets to dark. Now, that is the wrong thing, in my opinion, to decide what changes whether widgets are light or dark. It should

be the system rather than the icons there was a point i think in the in it was either in ios 18 or ios 26 where that happened and they they broke they like changed the way that the systems worked but that did not come to os mac 26 tahoe taaho i i like to have my system in dark mode and my icons in light mode but now that means my my widgets are in light mode which is not what i'm looking for um the icon jail is real bad Like, I hate it. My dock is essentially unreadable in Spots now. Because you know me.

I have a lot of things in my dock. I have a lot of apps open all the time. Yeah. And I have it on the right side. So now some of my icons, the actual icon is so small. I can't even see it anymore. Yeah. I don't like that.

Just a gray square with a little blob of color in there. I'm a bartender user via set app. And the version of bartender on set app is just completely broken like it just does not work so um i was talking to you and stephen about this and stephen said that he had just decided that he was just going to not use one of these apps anymore and i have gone down that route so i just spent some time in system preferences turning a bunch of stuff off yep um and i think that's just how i'm going to run now i'm doing that currently yeah as well although i did i have experimented with the app hidden bar which stephen's response was how do you

find it. Thanks. Get it together, Hackett. What are you doing? A little dad jokes there. So, anyway, I did quit out of, after I found it, I quit out of Hidden Bar. And it's okay. I think the big issue is I'm on a studio display now and on a laptop, it becomes a bigger problem.

Yeah. With lots of extra stuff. But you can tell a lot of stuff. Can I talk? Okay, unexpected turn here. I use Rocket now to do emoji because I used to use. launch bar and that's gone. Yeah.

And I have a real problem with an issue in Rocket that I want to address here. Oh, okay. Which is in the advanced preferences, because it puts a thing up in the menu bar. And I don't need the Rocket menu bar. I just, I, I, I, there's no scenario in which I care about it enough to have it be up there. Yeah. Um, and at the bottom of the advanced pane, it says, want to hide a rocket

It's menu bar icon, question mark, and it's blue. So I click on it, thinking it's a link to a page that will tell me what to do. The link goes to another app that hides menu bar icons on your Mac. I don't like that the answer is another. It is from the same developer, but I don't love that. And I don't love that when I installed it, it wanted to add a bunch of stuff and then upsell me. on the pro version of that app. And I'm not trying to beat up on this developer,

but like if you've got an app that hides things from the menu bar, you've got code that hides things from the menu bar. Use it in your app. Like just it makes me feel so bad because it's like a limitation of this app so great that it's in the settings and all it is is an upsell for a different app that does the things. thing that you wanted to do. I do not appreciate it at all. So, so Rocket is currently in my

menu bar, but it may not be for long if you get what I'm saying. Right. And it's not that I'm going to go install his other app. It's going to, I want to find an alternative to it. Because I really just, how, I don't know, that really bugged me that there, it anticipates my problem and then just tries. And literally, it's not even like explaining it. It's literally just a link to the product page for the other app like you you so what is it is it an ad is it support i don't know i hated it so yeah that's still up there i can see what i wouldn't know you but most most of the stuff up there you can make go away which i have done i have done that take you can take control of it yourself and do that and then over time as menu bar items become controls which is i think

apple is pushing um not only can they live in control center which is a a way that's in the system for you to put controls under a drop-down. But everything that's a control is removable from the menu bar. You can choose if you want it in the menu bar or not or in a drop-down or not. I would say the apps that I do want in my menu bar, I don't think any or many have adopted the new controls system.

Almost nothing has yet, but I feel like over time that will probably happen. Yeah. All right, a spotlight. Okay. It's nice, but I have some problems with it that I want to relay to you. One is it cannot see my files from Dropbox. And I know that you explained, I believe, on a previous episode in your review,

that there is an extension to the file provider API that they need to integrate with. But these, they exist in Finder. Like, I don't understand why they're at Dropbox. I mean, I have many problems with the way that Apple has forced companies like Dropbox to adopt the file provider APIs, therefore making them way worse than they were before from a user perspective.

But I find that really annoying. But I know that there's a result for it or whatever. But the thing that... I can see files in Dropbox. It's not showing me anything. Like if I search for files or folders. So here's the thing. I think something might be wrong

because also I cannot find my wife in contact search. That doesn't seem right, does it? Okay, you've got something going on. on there. Something's going on, right? I can, I can find, I can find files in Dropbox in Spotlight. Even if they're not downloaded, I can find them on the file name. What they're trying to do is they're adding an extension that allows you to search when you do a search, the file provider. So, you know, you know the deal where if it's not, if the file isn't downloaded on Dropbox, you can't search for the text inside the file because the file's not.

not actually there, right? So they have added an API that theoretically allows you to, when you do a spotlight search, one of the things it does is it will ask Dropbox if it added this feature for files that match that. And Dropbox has all your files. So Dropbox can do a text search and kickback results that would display in Spotlight, which is great, because it's one of the weaknesses of having files offloaded is that you can't do a search like that.

But what you're seeing is suggest to me that Spotlight's not indexing your Mac properly. Love to see it. How enough? Do you know what I mean? Like, how am I supposed to fix this? You know, like, even I searched for contacts and pressed tab, right? Like, in search of his contacts and I searched my wife's name and it's like, ah, there's nothing there, man. It's like, okay.

The old spotlight could do this, you know? My, this is not, now, we've left, I'm not trying to defend out. Apple here, we're in troubleshooting mode here. So I will just say, in settings under Spotlight, there are some things you could toggle, you know, toggle contacts on and off. And then also under, what is it? There's somewhere you can do search privacy and you can go in there and, like, drag your hard drive in and then drag it back out again.

And it basically erases your index and it forces a re-index. So there's some things to try from a troubleshooting perspective, but it's not great. No, I'll play around with it, I suppose, but I like what I have been able to use so far. But yeah, some of the kind of some features seem like regressions, but these seem like these weird things where I've got some strange outliers. I mean, I just, I would naturally have assumed that the new spotlight would force a re-index anyway, but maybe that isn't happening, or maybe it broke for me. And I don't know what's going on there, but that's something to try out.

I also I the menu bar is fine for me like visually just like the menu bar looks good however there I have had this weird thing where I keep thinking my windows are not correctly sized because it's like oh my window's not going to the top oh it is going to the top the top the top has changed and so it's funny I had a whole section in my I think I took it out of my review but it was in the preview which is it is I don't have a problem with the transparent menu bar

but what it means is if you've got a very nice wallpaper behind it when your window is at the top of the screen, especially if you don't have lots and lots of menu bar items, there's this little gap between where the menus go over and where the menu bar items go over that it just shows your wallpaper. But you can't actually put anything up there. It's still the menu bar, even though it's invisible.

So it's like there's a little force field up there that's like, nope, nope, you can't go up there. It's weird. It's just weird. It is strange. But overall, you know, it's fine. I do want to fix the spotlight thing, but I'm not like super-fusty. Automations may be a thing that you can do some more of.

Yeah, you might like those. Yeah, you're probably right. You're probably right. Maybe. I don't know. Brian wrote in with something interesting and says, it seems like there is a new feature of camera control in iOS 26, where a user can actually select and reorder what functionality is available to control

when utilizing the camera control. This could lead to accidental, to less accidental changes and make it more useful depending on the customization and the person. Whether through light swipe or press, after the menu is up, interaction can also be done through touch as well. You can find these settings under settings, camera control, and then camera control, then customize. So you can, there are a bunch of things like you can turn off the swipe action completely. You can, I've done it now, so basically it will just change cameras if I swipe it. It won't do anything else, and I can't access anything else.

and there are also a bunch of other like toggles that I hadn't seen before because if you're someone who's frustrated with camera control you may be able to go in and tweak it a little bit to what you would desire so I went in and did that and so now I don't have to like swipe through anything else if I don't want to all right that was interesting

and also want to just mention the St. Jude campaign is now over finished just before we started recording today's show this year the relay community has raised $753,756 for the kids of St. Jude meaning that since 2019 we have now raised a total of $4.8 million.

So thank you so much. Pretty good. Thank you. Our goal was 700. We went to 753, 756. And when we hit 700, I said to you and Stephen go for 750. Yep.

And then over the weekend I got the text. It was like, well, we did it. There it is, 7.50. So that's pretty great. So thank you everyone for your support. To everybody out there. Now we look forward to next September. Yep, just around the corner.

Any day now. Any day now. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace, the all-in-one website platform that is designed to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just getting started or scaling a business, Squarespace will give you everything that you need to claim your domain, showcase your offerings

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I don't know what meta descriptions or an auto-generated site map is or how I would do it, and I don't have to worry about it. Also, analytics. They have built-in analytics at Squarespace, so you can keep track of the stats that matter with intuitive built-in tools. It makes it super easy for you to review website traffic, learn where to focus your engagement, and track revenue from bookings, invoices, or product sales. Go and try this up for yourself. Go to Squarespace.com slash upgrade. You can sign up for a free trial there, and you can build your entire website. Then, when you are ready to launch it to the world, use the offer code upgrade, and you will save 10% of your first purchase of a website or domain.

That is Squarespace.com slash upgrade and the offer code upgrade to get your 10% off your first purchase and show your support for the show. A thanks to Squarespace for their support of this show and all of Relay. Jason, I know it's your birthday today. And you may want to celebrate.

Only fun stuff, right? Unfortunately not. Unfortunately not. I have a not fun topic. Only fun stuff, right? Yeah, I have a not fun topic for you. I was doing that Star Wars meme there. And I will just say, like, I guess, to our listeners who, for whatever reason,

don't want to hear political-style discussions. Chapter markers are right there for you. Chapter markers. You can jump ahead if you want to. Last week, Apple removed the Iceblock app from the App Store. Iceblock is an app that is intended to allow users to report the activity and location of United States Customs and Immigration Officers

and allowing people to avoid interactions with them. This app is no longer available for download, but still operates on phones that has already been installed on. There is actually an interesting distinction there. Apple can do the latter if they want to. It is possible for Apple to render an app completely useless, but it is now non-downloadable from the App Store. The developer was told by Apple it had been removed for, quote, objectionable content,

and the Trump administration has taken credit for it, saying that they demanded Apple remove it. Because I pressed on it, you have to remind me, because I can never remember this. In this scenario, if Apple has removed it, can it be re-downloaded if somebody gets a new phone? I don't believe so. Yeah, I think if the developer, a developer can remove an app for sale and it no longer shows in search, but you can still download it. But I think if Apple was like, hey, we're taking this down. It's like gone.

So, yeah, I think that's the difference. Apple has done this kind of thing before. in the past they removed an app called HKMapDLive this helped people get together for protests in Hong Kong and Apple did this after they were pressured by the Chinese government to take it out of the store I will include a link in the show notes to a piece that John Guberrault and Daring Fireball

kind of like talking about if Apple has lines that they're not willing to cross or that they would be willing to cross like what would have to happen and he kind of references that Apple could have if they wanted to they could have challenged this in court but they have decided not to

well I mean we can go even before that this was not a formal request this was this was not a legal request this was the attorney general saying this is bad they should remove it and they removed it without any legal challenge whatsoever so let me just press on that a little bit because obviously you understand your system greater than me

the attorney general making that request that wouldn't be kind of like seen to be legal even though it's the attorney general like it's because no paperwork was filed is that what you're saying? Yeah, that's it's it's a personal it's basically the attorney general's saying I can't believe they got this out

they should take it down and they took it down. Yeah, that's, you know, now maybe I don't know it's possible that there was like a letter that was like if you don't do this we're going to prosecute you or we're going to take this to a judge or whatever but that's the point is like they didn't this isn't like they defied a order by a judge to do it they they defied you know they went

along with a you know quote unquote order that was just a person in the government saying something and and that that's they decided that that was look so much of what's going on here is about and by that i mean like in america right now is about a system that is based on a bunch of norms about what you do where there are not rules that are hard and fast, they're more like everybody accepts that this is the process you go through.

And the current administration is not interested in everybody accepts. They just want to do what they want to do. And so you end up in a situation where all sorts of stuff is happening that is unusual, let's just say. So that's the environment going on here. But you're right.

I mean, bottom line is, Apple Apple has generally adhered to an internal policy or philosophy or however you want to say which is like if the government

at least to a point if the government of a territory says this is this app will harm the security of law enforcement for example they just say oh okay

you're the you're the law enforcement so if you say that this is dangerous to law enforcement officers we're just going to let it go the debate here is about norms right the debate here is what this app is meant to do is not tell and i mean i guess people can differ about this but is not to tell vicious criminals where to find cops to attack them it's about telling people who might get swear swept up in an immigration raid who may actually be U.S. citizens, but that hasn't stopped those people from getting thrown in jail for days and things like that, where the immigration people are. It is, it is, Apple's policy at least pretends to have this assumption that, um, of course we all agree that we don't want apps that make the world unsafe for our first responders, right? It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, good faith to a certain point, at least, argument. But the way that this is being executed, the details of who the attorney general is and what she does and what's going on with the immigration

authorities has, you know, it's a different situation. And I think that what's interesting about Apple's response here is that Apple has chosen to just go along like it goes along with requests in other locations and saying, look, the local authorities say that this is bad. And it very much as a, we don't want to get into it. So we're just going to, just going to do this and move along. That's how I really strongly read it is that attorney general of a territory says this is dangerous. And Apple's like, sure, fine, gone. And as you pointed out, this is not a new policy on their part. This is, what's different about it is Apple does not see this as being the same as something like decrypting somebody's data on a phone. This is the, as we all,

all know the squishest of realms. It's App Store policy, where there are some written down policies somewhere, but basically Apple just kind of can do whatever. And they control the platforms. So they, you know, they, they are the, they're this, they've set up themselves as the ultimate. They're the judge and jury. They're the legal system for the app store. They can just pull things from the app store. And that's what happened here. I'm going to ask you some questions, get some of your thoughts on this a little bit more, because I'm just trying to like, trying to tease apart some of this, right? So like, if Apple did, had decided to take this to court, is there a scenario where they could have won against the government? Do you think? I honestly don't, well, here's the problem.

I honestly don't know what laws are on the books. Yeah. In terms of enabling, you know, if they say this enables violence against police officers. Is there a law? I don't know. I don't know if there is. If there is, or if there's a, again, because of the world we live in now, or if there's a judge that they can go to who will basically say, yeah, sure, this law fits. Then Apple could theoretically, in that case, could have been forced to do this.

But it never got to that. And, you know, I'm skeptical about that. Like I said, I mean, you mentioned John Gruber. mentioning where where is the line drawn i think clearly at squishy app store policy about government saying don't do that is not where apple draws the line i would also say that you know apple is wary apple has got a lot of people in a lot of places telling apple what to do involving the app store and that apple is also really wary of like keeping its control over the app store by having policies like this um i i think the real broader question is if it was

was a, if it was a security or privacy breaking request. I kind of assume that that's where they would draw the line and start to fight it. Maybe not, but. Well, I just don't know. Like, I just don't, I don't think that that's been tested. It would be interesting to find out because that's where I think, you know, surely John Gruber's point and the broader point here and the John Oliver point made a couple weeks ago on his show is at what point. Do you realize that saying yes to the bully never stops the bully? And the only way you can try to stop the bully is to say no.

When does Apple say no to things that the administration wants them to do? And we saw with the Disney thing that Disney finally got in a point so uncomfortable that they couldn't avoid it. They had to either bring Jimmy Kimmel back or not. And people were going to be angered by one or the other. And their delay, I mean, we did a whole podcast about this last week on downstream, but the delay allowed other voices to come out and say, oh, the FCC commissioner shouldn't have said that. And Republican voices saying that. And that gave Disney a little more cover and a little more time to let Jimmy Kimmel come back. But my point is they were ultimately forced out of, you know, they couldn't hide anymore.

They had to make a decision and that's the decision they made and now they have to live it down. And if there are repercussions for them and there's revenge taken against them, they're going to have to fight it because that's just how it is. Is there a line for Apple? I would like to think that there is. And my guess is that that would be the line would be we want actually to break into customer data, right? Or surveil them in a way that Apple is uncomfortable. with that that might be the moment where they say no, no, because it is too much in conflict with everything else that they've stated. But we don't know. But this one, this one, again, it's the squishy

app store. Like this, I feel like this was easy for them because Apple arbitrarily removes things in general all the time and certainly at the request of government officials. And I think part of the clash here is that there are a lot of people out there who are like, yeah, but Pam Bondi is not like any other attorney general ever. And she does lots of things for political reasons. And they're not based on the law at all and you can't listen to her. And I guess what Apple, the people involved in this would probably respond is, I know what you're saying, but she is the attorney general of the United States of America and she is making noise about what she says is a threat against law enforcement. And do we want to go down that path of interpreting this differently? And,

you know, the expedient path, which I feel like is what they did here, is just say, well, It just goes into the invisible App Store machine and that app disappears. And Google, by the way, did also remove it from Google Play. The difference there is that you can sideload apps and Android phones and you can't do that on iPhones. Yeah, because I guess the, like,

some of the, the temperature that I have been able to glean from social media being that, like, you know, essentially this is Apple kind of, you know, you talk about law enforcement, like legitimizing ICE as a law enforcement. agency, which it's questionable, right?

Like, I think it's quite, it is questionable. Like, what they are doing, how they are doing it, and how this is formed is, is something that is a hot button. This is what I mean about norms, though. This is what I mean about norms, is ICE isn't a law. Ice is a law enforcement agency. Then we have to debate, but is it being used as a law enforcement agency? Is it being used properly as a law enforcement agency?

Is it being used in, in bad ways? and Apple doesn't want to go there. Right. There's like, there's a way that it needs to be defined a bit more clearly, I think, because it's like the, the customs agency exists and immigration exists, but what is being referred to as ICE now? It's like something completely seems to be completely different to what it was before. Right. Yeah, but this is, this is the, the challenge. If you're, first off, there's, there's the world in which these rules were made, right? And this comes back to the fact that, that, that, uh, in the world where these rules, were made, police and other law enforcement were being used differently than they're currently being used. So this is the breaking of norms. But on top of that is Apple not wanting to be bothered, because if, imagine as a big corporation, you put yourself in the position of saying, well, I know that the attorney general said

this about this part of the government, but we, a corporation in this kind of, country have decided that the attorney general is unreasonable and that that arm of the government is not really law enforcement. It's bad doing bad things. And so we're going to ignore it. Not saying that they could do that. I'm saying I understand why the people involved, especially in App Store policy where it's all about like the letter of these laws that are made up by Apple looks at it and says, I don't want to go down that path of starting to say, but if we're going to follow government requests unless we decide that they're bad in which case we won't like they they don't seem to be the people who do that sort of thing and and that's

what's going on here but I mean and again I'm not just to be clear because people get really angry about this yeah I don't endorse this approach but I understand it like I mean I don't endorse the app store being the only path onto the devices which is at the root of that why this is a problem is that if Apple decides no one can run ice block no one can run ice block because there's no other alternative to get it on your phone. That is not great because it puts all the power in the hands of Apple. And if Apple decides to act on a request by the attorney general, then that's like, that's it. And there's no, there's no court of appeal for that, really. Yeah. And you are only like two jumps from Apple endorses ice. Right. Yeah. Apple by

making this move has legitimized the attorney general's opinion that knowing where ice agents are puts them in danger and that ice agents are valid first responding law enforcement just doing their jobs. And I'm sure there are people out there listening who are like, well, that's what they are. And other people strongly disagree. Although even then there's nuance, right? You could also argue it's not, I mean, my argument would be, I don't think this is about violence at all. I think this is about protest and this is about protecting people who, again, I read a story this weekend about a guy who's a U.S. citizen who's been picked up and imprisoned by ICE twice and he's got a real ID, which is our biometric authenticated ID, and they just said

it's fake and took him away for days, twice. Like, is Ice Block not potentially a way for somebody like that to be like, I'm not going over there? I'm not going to, I'm not going to be over there where they, those guys are because they're going to put me in jail incorrectly again, right? Like there are lots of I would argue valid uses for this but is that an argument that Apple wants to have and the answer is certainly

not, not, but the broader question is where do they draw the line down the road? Are they going to draw the line somewhere else? So they're never going to draw the line. And and all we know from this one is this sure isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I'm not trying I don't, I don't, I don't think I am like a

in this scenario, but like, I just think the further we continue, I just don't know if they're going to draw any lines. Like, I don't... That's the question. I don't know what these lines are going to be. Like, I just can't work it out. That is why I bring up

consumer privacy. Because I think if there is a line that Apple is going to draw, that will be it. I think that that is the most likely scenario where Apple says, I mean, all the U.S. government has to do

is come and say, you know that thing in the UK where they're spying on their own people or have the ability to just get all the ICloud backups and nobody can say anything about it? We want that too. And I'm not saying they'll say no because I think they're saying yes in the UK, right?

So we have not spoken about this. So this was, we spoke about the fact that the, I, US official, I don't remember who, was like, hey, we told that, I don't know if is Pam Bondi, maybe it was. There's Pam Bondi. Okay, Pam's all over the news.

She is. She was like, hey, we stopped Apple from doing this. They're not going to do this about like, essentially the UK government having a back door into worldwide data. Now the UK government are saying just UK citizens then. Yeah.

And I'm probably going to do it. Here's the thing. Isn't this what they do in China? Yeah. So Apple doesn't have that line. No, Apple has a long-standing policy of doing what the government asked them to do. And that, for all readings of that statement, because they're in China, and that's what they do in China. Yeah.

Apple, except for the DMA. They don't do that. Well, they do it, though. They don't like it, but they're doing it. Yeah, they don't like it, but they do it. They fight it because there's a mechanism to fight it. Yeah. Yeah, it's a mess.

No, I think, I think this is the question is where would Apple draw a line? where they would put themselves in an adversarial position with the U.S. government. And you're right. Maybe the answer is nowhere. Maybe we don't know. But again, I come back to this wasn't it. This sure wasn't it. They just were like, yep, okay, Pam, you got it. It's out of the app store. Done. Like, I do want to underscore that point, Don't I make because it was a joke that you made. And I kind of said, because I've been seeing people say it's like, oh, well, they keep drawing, they're not drawing lines at the DMA. They are doing that they don't like it. They're dragging their fist. but they are going along with what the EU wants by hook or by crook

they're at least they're trying to fight it but they're doing it they are doing it let's demarcate exactly where Apple has drawn the line historically because I think I think this is the answer which is Apple

like Apple's solution to the UK was turning off a feature that added more encryption right? Yeah I think Apple's policy is more refined than one might think

because it's not we're not going to break encryption. It's we're not going to build you a back door. Right? It's we're not going to build you a back door. We're not going to task our people to decrypt something by finding a bug in our software. We're not going to, that was San Bernardino, right? It's like we're not going to build you a back door. We're not going to build a system that breaks encryption because once you break encryption,

it's broken for everybody. However, what they haven't said no to is, is we're going to put it on a server where you have a key or we're going to turn, in this case, we're going to turn off the feature that means we can't decrypt that data so that that data is always encrypted on our, are always decryptable on our servers or is always decrypted on our servers. That's the kind of stuff where they're comfortable with it. And you can go a long way down that path before hitting a red line, right? Because, you know, and I think the government knows that

that's the other part of this is from the government side like they are also figuring out sort of like what how compliant Apple will be with them and Google and I think the San Bernardino case is an interesting example

because that was them saying build us a back door or break into your own systems to take something that was encrypted that you promised essentially was private and make it not private and that is that is where they've drawn the line

is in that very particular case of we've got something we're not going to break our own encryption we're not going to break the privacy of our customers but that's not the same as what they I mean Mike they turned off that feature in the UK right

yes and the net effective that is those backups are no longer unbreakable so what they did in China because I'm Googling around now because I'm trying to work out Chinese law was that you had to put the keys. The servers on, basically your servers had to be on servers owned by essentially Chinese companies and controlled by the government, which I believe means they've got the keys.

Yes, the backups and the keys are both stored on ICloud servers in China. Now, what does that mean? In China. I don't know enough about encryption to be able to tell you what that means. It means that in China, the Chinese government can use the keys to decrypt anything that's encrypted on the server. Right. Yeah. So why would they not just do this in other countries? Why wouldn't they do this? Like if they got asked by the UK, if they got asked by the U.S., why would they not do this? So this is the loophole is that by turning off that advanced data protection feature, it goes back to the way it was. ADP, the whole point of it was, we're going to make it so we can't get it your stuff. And the reaction is, you know, if you're in a country that says, no, we really want access to that. The solution is, okay, we'll turn off ADP in your country. And then what they're doing is reverting to where it was, which is a less secure, less private, more readable, because everything's in that backup.

And it means, functionally what it means is, yes, you can make an encrypted backup on your Mac of your iPhone that Apple can't get to, but nobody's going to do it. And so effectively it means everybody's got a backup that the government can get to if they want to. And that seems to be Apple's policy, right? because they did it in the UK, which is if you ask, the first thing we do is we'll just turn off ADP. And then, I mean, look, I'm sure that they're fighting. ADP and encrypted ICAR backups are different things.

Yeah, but doesn't ADP? ADP encrypts everything because... Well, there's a lot of end-to-end encrypted stuff that Apple can't get to, right? And that would be a breakage of it. I think ADP's big thing is that there were places where Apple held the key. so that they could also decrypt your stuff

and ADP throws that key away. Correct. And it also means that your messages are encrypted because if you do use messages in the cloud, anybody who uses messages in the cloud, your messages are no longer fully encrypted, even though IMessage is encrypted. It is a very strange, weird loophole,

but if you use messages in the cloud, it means that they're available in your ICloud backups and that part of our iCloud backup, that part is the key for, in case you lose your password. It's a very strange thing about iCloud. It's like technically, yes, ICloud is end-to-end encrypted, unless you include messages in the cloud, which is a backup of your messages. So it's messy anyway, but I just, yeah, I just at this point. And I'm not, like, I don't know, I am of the mind.

I will read something that Dan wrote on Six Colors. expect corporations to be a proxy in the fight against authoritarianism. They are simply put, not designed for it. They are machines designed to return profit to shareholders. And that means they fundamentally rely on stability that you're not going to get from making waves. You will always be disappointed. So this is like a kind of a sentiment that me and you expressed with the trophy for Donald Trump, right, that Tim Cook gave. So like, I think you could maybe listen to me and be like Mike's falling down into a dark hole. But no, I have. I just don't. I don't expect them to fight for me or for anyone. I just don't. And so I feel like I don't feel like where

the lines are. I think people that believe that there are lines, I'm just not sure that there are anymore. The only reason that a giant profit seeking corporation would act in what you view as the best interests of the people is if they view them as the best interests of them. That is the alignment that you seek, but that is often usually not aligned. So like, and that's why I mentioned the red line about privacy, because Apple has this very, you know, decade plus long, uh, process of promoting privacy and iPhone in the same words, right, in the same sentence. If there's a moment where they look at a policy request from the government and see that

it's going to eviscerate this thing that they've built up. and they decide that there's no way for them to do it that will not harm them materially in terms of their sales or whatever, then they might make a change. But essentially, it would require that kind of thing. In fact, I could go the other way and say, like, the threat of tariffs is what brought a bunch of Apple execs who probably didn't want to go to the White House or anywhere else, but they did it because that was the expedient thing to do because they feel, for that aspect of their business. It works. That's just how it works. And Dan's absolutely right.

I mean, corporations are entirely made of people and the people could change their minds. But the truth is it's a system and a culture and a machine for generating profit and shareholder value. And they, you know, and yeah, I mean, this is the same thing. It's like, I'm not defending them. I'm saying we shouldn't expect them to take principled stands. because in the end, and we should be disappointed when they don't, but we shouldn't be surprised because in the end,

money talks. And they're happy to take stands that look great when they're not threatening their core business. But if they threaten their core business, they will abandon those stances immediately. And we've seen this again and again. Remember, don't be evil. That was a great moment in Google's history.

And then it was like getting in the way and they're like, we're not going to do that anymore. We're not going to not be evil. saying we're going to be evil. We are. We're going to just not say, don't be evil anymore because follow the money. Remember Open AI, which was a nonprofit that was going to do everything for the good of humanity and not become a giant tech company? Guess what? They threw that away and are now a giant tech company who doesn't really care. Would you like to make videos for no reason? Yeah. Would you like to do that? Of real people and all like, sure, why not? Like, they decided that.

So, so I guess, you know, it's not a happy way to end because I think every. everybody did expect Apple to be at least better than the others on this, but I think the truth is that big tech companies are big tech companies. And even the ones who might be less inclined to do bad things, there are moments where they're going to be put, what they feel is put in a corner and they're going to do what they feel is best for their business. And that's the bottom line. And I'm not happy relaying this, but that is where we are. Yeah. And again, I'll say what I've said before because it's my opinion, it's my point of view. I think that there are lots of reasons why, because of the way that the world is, they do have to do these things. They are trying to, you know, people say it's all for the shareholders, and I understand that point of view, but also as well, there are a lot of people that work at Apple, and sometimes there are decisions that you have to make because what else are you going to do?

I would like them to be more principled. I don't know if I'm going to get it, though, and so it's kind of one of those things I'm just disappointed that they're not in that spot, but I'm also not really expecting anything else from them, to be honest. love there to be a moment where the Trump administration pushes Apple so far that Apple feels like

now is the moment where we have to stand up to the bully because we cannot go further. I'm not sure that will happen. Well, we're only a year. We're not even a year in yet. I'm also not sure, I'm also not sure if they will force it.

I always think about this when I'm watching sports. I was watching football over the weekend and you always have that moment in a sporting event or the baseball playoffs too and like if you're rooting for one team and then there's like a moment of decision

and there's a decision and it's like should they go forward on fourth down or should they intentionally walk this guy or whatever it is. And if you're if you're pulling for the other team what's your opinion? What which one of these decisions would make you happier? They should do the other one, right?

Because you're pulling for this team. So it's like, should they go for it or should they kick in football? I'm like, oh, well, I think they should totally kick here. Well, that means they should go for it. That means they should go for it because it means you're afraid that they're going to go for it and make it and it's going to be bad for your team. And you think that, and I say this because that's an internal calibration that happens. And I do, I'm not sure the Trump administration is capable of this. There are people there who probably have an idea of what buttons to push more readily at Apple

and what buttons to not push more readily at Apple. Now, I don't think the president is one of those people. And I think that the most likely scenario here is he decides to push a button. Then everybody else is like, oh, they're not going to, how they're going to respond. And then we'll see what they do. You're right. There are more years of this to come. I don't know.

I would love to see it, though, because here, I'm going to end on a slightly more positive note. Going back to the Disney thing. I think a year, almost a year in, it's not even close to a year in, nine months in, I think there are a lot of companies that we're thinking Trump first term playbook and we're doing some new president go along to get along. Yeah. And I think we are reaching a point now. I would like to think we are reaching a point now where those companies are realizing that go along to get along doesn't really work. it's always going to be what have you done for me lately he has a new book like he has a new

playbook and in the end if there is and there's a lot of cowardice out there but in the end I wonder if they with things like the Kimmel thing and the overreach of the FCC chair and even people like Ted Cruz saying that guy went too far if you end up at a point where more companies say no to the bully say we're not going to do that you're going to have to make me and the more that do that the more might do that

I mean I guess it comes down to that saying which is they're not as powerful as they think they are and you need to not give you need to not grant them the power that they think they have because that's how they get that power is that it's just granted by people

who say well you know what are we going to do to stop it and the answer is don't grant them that power. They shrink back when challenged like a bully. And yeah, they might punch you in the face. They have ways to make it hurt. But like, in the end, is there an alternative?

It's that classic. Like, if I say yes, does it stop? No, it doesn't stop. It keeps happening. Well, then say no. And so my hope is that maybe we'll see more of that. However, the evidence for that is thin on the ground. So we'll see.

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That is FitBOD. Dot me slash upgrade for 25% of your membership. A thanks to FitBud for their continued support of this show and relay. I want to talk about what is going on with the Apple Vision Pro. We will turn to friend of the show, the sheriff, Mark German, who reports at Bloomberg that Apple has paused their plans to create a cheaper and lighter version of the Vision Pro. This product was being developed for a potential 2027 release. Mark says that this project replaced the idea of doing a stripped down kind of

vision air model. So I want to catch everybody up here because I had to spend a little bit of time over the last couple of days reminding myself with the various twists and turns of the Vision Pro's development. So basically we had the Vision Pro and then people were like, surely there'll be a lighter one. be cheaper. So Apple started working on that. And then we're like, no, we're not going to do that. What we're going to do instead is make a cheaper, lighter version of the Vision Pro, new materials, kind of refreshed design. Both of these have now been shelved. So Vision Pro is not canceled. In fact, Mark in his newsletter this weekend kind of iterated that because some people have taken this report from him to be like Apple has abandoned the Vision Pro. That is not the case. There is currently just no active work.

on a significant revision. All that there is in the works right now is a, quote, modest refresh of the current Vision Pro design of a faster chip that is expected for as early as the end of this year. Yeah, that's the M5 Vision Pro. Yeah, probably.

That will essentially be what we have right now in the hardware and there will be an M5 and there is currently no development of anything more radical than that. Right, no ongoing development because the team that was working on something to come out in a couple of years has been taken off of that to work on a different project. Yes, which I get to in a second.

Mac Rumors is reporting as well that they have found referenced in code to a, quote, dual knit band for the Vision Pro. A text description of the dual knit band suggests that there will be an upper band that spans the top of the head and another band that fits behind the head. So this is something we had heard about before. Exactly what we got in the demos. We got the demos in something like that. this and then they didn't ship it. The connected tipster, I'll refer to him, who goes by the name not Mark German, who has had a pretty good track record, wrote in about this a little while ago and said, it is not that exact one, but it is similar in kind of idea. Sure. Of course. Because I kept saying

it was the exact one and they wanted to correct me on that. Yeah, I've been using the Belkin dual band. Yeah. And it's great. I find it funny, you know, a lot of the conversation about the Vision Pro is about the comfort, and I'll grant you, you know, after a while, it feels, you know, it feels heavier. And when you take it off, it feels like your face has been mashed against something because it has. I have so few problems with it using the Belkin band. The Belkin Band is which is a dual, which is a dual adjustable band that fits over the top of your head and the back of your head. And I use that all the time now. And it's great. So if they're going to do something, and that clearly designed by Apple, right? So if they're,

going to do something kind of like that for the new vision pro that's a positive i agree but yeah so okay we're going to talk about this in the minute i i want to before we talk about this product and how i feel about this decision on their part i want to say i i wrote actually last week i wrote my vision os 26 review um the point of vision o s which it actually is really good vision o s is really good the issue is not the operating system. They've made an OS that's kind of iPad-like with more, even more Mac flavor than the iPad,

although now with iPad OS 26, they're more similar. It's got a lot of great stuff in it. Some of the features that started out bad have improved so much. The trajectory, they're doing what they should with Vision OS, which is a product for the future,

not the present, is to push it forward. Keep pushing it forward. When it stops moving forward, then they're in trouble. Because the whole idea here is to have a vision-oriented, gesture-oriented operating system ready for the time when the hardware is light enough that people are wearing these more, whether it's for VR or AR. That's the idea here is that they'll have a whole stack that will be ready for that moment. So if we take Vision Pro to be essentially, you know, test hardware that fakes, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not an AR simulator.

right? It's an AR simulator. They've got all those images there because they know that AR is the where they want to go with this. They've got all these cameras on it because they want to simulate AR but they can't right now. The hardware just isn't there to do what they want to do. So they're really like in 10 years what is this going to look like in glasses and that's what the Vision Pro is. It's a simulator of that. I think it's both. Because even in a world of AR, there's still things in AR product you cannot do that you can do with a VR product. Sure. But when I say it's an AR simulator, I mean, yes, it's all. Also a VR device. Yeah. It is a VR device. It is that. But it's that now. It's heavy, but it's like, it's already that.

Yeah. But the AR part of it is, I mean, Apple is not thinking that big heavy thing on your face is the future. They're thinking that it's all going to be lighter. So my point is they're striving forward. And I think that's a good sign. I think the hardware in this path is years down the road before it will be something that would be broadly appealing. I would love to see it get better and lighter. cheaper in the next few years.

But it does feel like that's way out. And I'm less concerned about hardware development right now. I think in the long run, and we're going to get to this in a second, I think a long run, Apple does need to be working hard on hardware development to get to the endpoint. Whatever direction they go, they need to get to the endpoint of having something relatively light that you can wear on your face that is augmented reality. And that's where they need to be going. And those hardware people are still doing that.

They're doing it on a different product. product and we'll talk about it in a second. On the OS side, I do think they need to keep striving forward because I think in the end, what we see in Vision Pro today is not that far off from what the ideal

would be if that magic set of AR glasses appeared today. They could run Vision OS on it and it would be pretty great. But it's a decade away. Right. So as long as I just want Vision OS to keep progressing because I think it's actually really good.

every other Apple product we could argue the hardware is ahead of the operating system Vision Pro the OS is so far ahead of the hardware It's so far ahead of the hardware This is the problem So like it's good David and Discord is kind of like saying Like oh they will drop the VR stuff

But I think that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what a Vision OS is as a product Because Vision OS would not Today, Vision OS, what are we, 26 would not be able to run on hardware for like 10 years, right? Like the complexity of that system, the amount of power that it needs

and all of the sensors to work on AR glasses is like 10 years away. So you can't say that like, oh, like they're just, they'll get rid of the VR part whenever. No, because Vision OS will always be significantly ahead of what an AR product could do just because of the form factor.

Right, because it's approaching it from the other direction. Right. you'll always be able to do more with something more. Either Apple stops work on Vision OS, and they put it on ice for a significant portion of time, or they end up with both products, which is where I think they're going, where Vision OS will have a version that runs on the Vision Pro, and then also on the, I guess the Vision probably now could just be AR glasses, right? And that's that, or Vision Air would be AR glasses.

The, and without getting ahead of ourselves here, because we're about to get into it, I would say, we don't, what you're talking about is details. Yes. Like, we don't know where the convergence happens or what. I think I would say that Apple's ideal is that there are glasses that you can wear, that you can use an AR mode or VR mode. And it does everything you want. I think what you're saying is, practically speaking, converging those two. products will be very hard, like converging a laptop with a desktop. I don't think it's not that it can't happen, but I think it would be very hard.

You can't do VR on a pair of eye glasses. I mean, maybe, maybe I'm just, I'm just going to say I'm open to it. But I would also say whatever, whatever they learn about, this is the AR part of Vision Pro, it's their playground for what AR behavior should be in an operating system. Yeah. And I have to believe that in the long run, the investment they make in Vision OS is going to mean that the software they run on AR glasses they make down the road is going to be better because they made this investment and they've learned a lot of lessons

about how it works. Yes. We will see because I think in the short run, they're not going to use anything like VisionOS. I think they're going to be doing things like projecting widgets onto some glasses from your phone. But in the long run, they need to be smarter than that. Yeah. Like VisionOS has in it a selection of elements that would be good.

in an AR product, that anybody that has used Vision OS would know that that interface, always in your vision, is way too much. It's an entire operating system. It's like, imagine running macOS on your Apple Watch. That's essentially what we're talking about here. Right, right. I'd say that the long term ideal is that when you're walking around, you are in a focus mode essentially and you're just seeing the world, but then you could also sit down with that same device and use it as your computer, but again, that may not be possible or it may not be possible for a long time. Maybe this is just my kind of concern about this type of product is I absolutely do not want a Vision Pro-like experience available to me everywhere, always 24-7.

Oh, I agree. It's too much. It's way, way, way too much. Like, I don't want notifications in my eyeglasses. Yeah, all right. I think you're getting hung up on a little bit, because in the And they, there will be different, if they can, even if it's not full VR, there are going to be different levels of presentation in an AR product. And I would imagine you will be able to set what those levels are like we can now with things like focus modes and preferences, right? To like, what do you want to see and what do you not want to see? Because like Apple Watch is a great example. Some people want all their notifications on their Apple Watch and other people don't. Yeah.

And there's a setting for that. Okay, let's talk about what those hardware developers are actually working on. Yeah, so Apple are moving the team that was working on the Vision Pro over to a smart glasses project. Is this supposed to become a bigger priority for Apple because they want to be able to push forward more quickly on a project like that? So as a reminder, Apple is working on two products in the smart glass world, a vision that is focused, sorry, a version of vision, If that is focused around audio, cameras, and Siri, set for 2027. Mark German also says there will be some kind of health focus there. Okay.

That's AirPods, basically. Yeah, it'd be interesting to see what health sensors could you work from, like, being on my nose and temples? I mean, I have no idea, right? But I also wouldn't have imagined you could take my heart rate from my ears, but you can, apparently. Then also a pair of glasses that includes a display of some kind targeting for 2028. However, it seems Apple is trying to beat their initial timeframes now and are doing this with a shift of resources. Remember, we talked about this like more than a year ago. Yeah.

Because I know I said, I feel like it was spring of last year. I said, or maybe it was just this year. I basically said at one point, if I am a man. manager at Apple, I'm going to throw as many people as I can to ship, you know, meta-rayband-style AirPod glasses ASAP. Yeah. Because it was very clear. And then we, you know, maybe they were doing that then, but we had to wait till now for a lot of this from, from Mark German. No, it was probably a year ago because, I mean, the meta Orion was a year ago. Right. So they did investigate this. And I think that their investigations have led to the go.

ahead to pull people off of that Vision Pro team and build this product too, which, you know, I think, so I think the Vision Pro is a cool product, although I think nobody should buy it because it's too expensive and it's too early. I think Vision OS is actually a good operating system that Apple's done some really great work with. Yep. And so I had this feeling like people expect me to say, oh, no, I'm worried about the Vision Pro. This is absolutely the right thing for them to do because first off, meta is doing this. And second, I think you do need to approach this from bottom up and top down. I think that if all you ever do is say we're going to make a big Vision Pro smaller and smaller and lighter, you are missing out on all. It's like saying, I'm not going to make the original Mac. I'm just going to keep it in the lab and it'll come out in five years. It's like the products coming from the bottom up are happening now.

They get people used to the idea of having connected devices that are glasses. you should be there because that is even if you and I disagree a little bit on whether they meet in the middle or not, they get close to each other in the middle because the glasses become more functional and the VR stuff becomes lighter and lighter and lighter. Those two things have to happen. And Apple has been approaching this only from top down. And they need to go bottom up. They absolutely 100% need to.

They are behind meta here. And just as I argue you got to ship Vision Pro because you got to learn. how that product works and progress it toward where you want to go, shipping glasses is important because it makes you

go through the crucible of miniaturizing and of what do you need to learn to get things on those glasses and to get it to talk to your iPhone and to get the battery life to be decent and to deal with sensors that can fit on those things

and input via something like an Apple Watch because Meta's got that wristband that they're doing. Like all of that, those are all lessons that are required to get to your destination. And I don't think that Vision Pro is the platform to learn some of those lessons.

So I think this is actually kind of, I mean, it's overdue news for Apple that they should be working on this and retasking Vision Pro people. I don't love it. I mean, I kind of wish they were doing both full speed. But in this instance, if you could only pick one,

going bottom up and building, first those glasses and then the other first the ones that are basically AirPods and then one that's more like what meta has shown which is kind of like a basic

display which like I said earlier I feel like fits into again a lot of tech that Apple already has it's probably things like widgets it's probably similar to that home device that they haven't shipped yet because their Siri AI stuff is a disaster but if they can fix

that part of it they've got the I feel like they've got a lot of the hardware pieces to make this happen and they need too because this is another area for them to learn and to get the public ready to accept this is a beachhead right to get to accept smart glasses because it's going to take people I think it's going to be a harder fight than the watch because the glasses are so personal I think it's going to be hard so I think they need to start working on it and and they let meta

get ahead of them matter a way ahead too which is that's that's the embarrassing part right Like, let's just say that they got to this timeline that Mark's suggesting, 2027 for a product meta ship like two years ago. Yeah. That's not great. That's why I said they had to pull it forward. The thing that kills me here, Mike, is that they have all the pieces. Yeah.

They have all this tech. They've had all this tech. They decided that this was not a product that was worth building and it was beneath them or something or that it was a novelty. See, this is one of those things. They spent all that money on the car. And yet they poo-poohed AI chatbots and they poo-pooed these wearable glasses. They're like, no, no, no, we'll come from the top down. And like, they made a mistake.

But then you need to react. And maybe they are finally reacting here. But you're right. It feels really late. And the frustration is other than an intelligence Siri, which hasn't stopped them from shipping AirPods, they have, on the hardware side, I have. 100% confidence that Apple can make these products

because most of these features already exist in Apple products but they just chose not to try for a long time and so they're behind I think they can catch up but like they got a

they got a scramble which is probably why they're pulling people off of other projects to do it because they just they just let it sit there It is supremely strange to think that, like, they wanted to make AR glasses, so they started with a VR headset and didn't do anything else. Well, they were, I think the story has been partially told, but the idea there is that people, including Johnny I, very strongly felt like that AR was the future. I think Tim Cook still has internalized a lot of that. But they obviously went through a bunch of tests and decided that they, and here's my theory, based on some of this stuff that has been reported, is they decided that they couldn't do it then to do pure AR.

They looked at what they could do with AR, and it was, again, it was meta-ray bands or something like that. It was a very, it was nothing. They had this vision of the future that was going to be amazing. And at some point, they won the argument of, well, let's just build a big heavy thing. so that we have a platform for our operating system and then we'll just kind of keep trying to make it lighter. And again, I don't think that's a mistake. I think the mistake is saying,

why don't we also use all of the skill we have in building AirPods and Apple Watch and build an accessory from the bottom up? I do wonder if the existence of AirPods led them astray where they thought AirPods are really successful. Doesn't this just repeat AirPods? We've heard Mark German's reports that they've been trying to put cameras on

AirPods, which sounds to me very much like, what if they're not glasses? What if they're AirPods? And that put them, I think, I think it's a confluence of those things that put them behind. Yeah. And I, by the way, I am not a believer. I know we've talked about it before, but I'm not a believer in cameras on AirPods, because I don't believe that they can see what you need them to see. And I don't believe that they don't have huge mismatches with people's like ears and hair in a way that you can't I mean what are they going to do stick out like antenna out of your ear like it's just nobody would wear that and I think close into the ears it's not going to work I I you know I prepare to be proven wrong but I think like glasses is the

platform that you have to use here yeah if they are cameras to take pictures right because there have been varying reports about what these cameras are for right whether it's like infrared gestures or our actual camera cameras if it's cameras to take pictures putting them on glasses is a vastly superior product than cameras on AirPods. If it's cameras to augment your view, if it's cameras to have your AI model look out and see what's going on around you. Having them facing forward where your eyes are is probably important. And people wear hair over their ears. And if your hair's over your ears, you can't, like, it's just not, it might be a solution. Like, I could see cameras

on AirPods helping you with like precision location and things like. like that, but, like, it is not the solution. The only solution offered by Apple. It can't be. There is nothing that cameras on AirPods could do that it wouldn't be better to put, when if you just put them on glasses. Like, it would always be better to put them on glasses. Other than see behind you, I guess, but even then you could really, in the long run, you put cameras on the end of the.

Yeah, I don't know why you would need that, but if you needed that, yes, you could also put them on glasses to see behind you in case your enemies are coming up behind you. I know what I guess. It's like when I was a kid and you'd have those like spy. glasses that just have mirrors in them. It's like those. Apple wants to build spy AirPods. Yeah, head on a swivel. Good idea. Mark German talks about how the upgraded Siri will also be a crucial part of this product and my word if this ends up being blocked because that Siri doesn't ship like the home pod of a screen. Like I mean, I get it that like

if you're doing this, it would be important but please don't let it be like integral to the product Because, Jason, I really just don't think they're shipping it. Like, I don't think it's that. It has to be. I mean, they have to get this right because everything they're lining up requires it. So they have to get it right. Here's what I say is like, yes, it should be crucial if you've shipped it. Right?

Like, don't build this product relying on that to exist on any particular time frame. Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think that this is all about what their vision for the product is. And, you know, AirPods ship now. AirPods Pro 3 didn't ship, didn't wait because the new Siri wasn't out. They shipped and they used the old Siri. And then when the new Siri comes, they'll use the new Siri. That's what's going to happen with this stuff.

It's the same thing. They'll use whatever Siri is there. But their vision for it is like that by 2027, we certainly will have a good Siri. They better. I mean, that's a larger issue. They sure better. I could imagine the display version of this product needing app intents, right? That like maybe that is what would power the UI that would exist in that screen, right?

Of like a really light UI kind of thing that is app intent powered. I could see that. But either way, like don't be like, we'll ship it after the upgrade. series like because history has proven that that is not a project that appears to be going super swimmingly well let me tell you if they if they can't make that work they're in deep oh i know i i agree with you they have to make it work but i just think tying anything more to the success of that product is probably a bad idea i don't know i mean i agree in a sense that like i said airpods ship with bad Siri and so

you just, you just use it and it's going to be what it's going to be regardless. But also, like, they got to, they got to ship it. And that's got to be, like, they got to ship it. They got to ship it. So I think if you're, if you're building this product, you really need to be focused on just tying in with whatever series provided to you on the phone. Yeah. That you're paired with. I still want a wild timer.

And like, it is truly bananas to me that we're. in a world where there is a product category of hardware that meta is leading? Yeah, okay, so I'll give, I want to give my very small anti-metta case here. Please do.

Which is, first off, I don't like them. I don't like them as a company. Case closed. They're bad. Your Honor, I arrest my case. They suck. I don't like it. Boo you. Boo!

I don't like them. I don't like them. There are some reasons why I don't like them. Yeah. And I have a MetaQuest. It's fine. It's not as good to the Vision Pro, but it also costs a fraction of it. And it has controllers.

Hey, remember those Sony controllers that are coming to the Vision Pro? I haven't seen those. Meta, okay, this is my little mini version of my thing about meta, which is corporate culture and identity are extremely hard to change. and while meta has put a lot of effort into its hardware, including the Raybans, and who knows, maybe they will be the ones to change. But I would say meta is what it is, which is a company that makes money on ads and by knowing who you are. And not only does that, I think, make, over the long run, I think make a bunch of people more reluctant about their relationship with META. But I think at a purely cultural level, meta is not a product company.

Or if they are, the product is the ads that are served personalized to people. And this is, I'm not trying to say, I'm not, this is not a hot take where I'm like, this is why META is doomed to fail with this stuff because they're ahead. They are totally ahead. What I will say is, I've seen Matto get derailed before. Mark Zuckerberg is great at derailing. Yep. He has a short attention span.

And the power to do whatever he wants. And he can do whatever he wants. And that company's culture is not about making great products. It's about selling ads to you as personalized as possible. And you see it again and again in Facebook, in Instagram. it's not their core. And can they change?

Maybe. But what I would say is the reason, even though Apple is behind that I don't believe that like Meta has an irretrievable lead here, part of that is that Apple has most of the tech that's in those products. They just have chosen not to make them.

And I think that was a mistake. It's that this is what Apple's good at. And it's not what Meta's good at. And maybe meta will get better at it. But again, I'm saying having a hardware project inside meta is nice and they've done a good job. But it's not at its core what meta is. And so I'm going to remain skeptical that meta suddenly has become an Apple-level product company in the glasses space because I don't believe it. I will say, I'm not saying that. I just want to say, I don't think you're saying I'm saying that I'm just saying, just because I made a point in Jay's, I am not saying that they're Apple low. No, no. I'm just saying they released a product and eviterated on it and they are very ahead. They're ahead. I'm not, I'm not debating you. I'm just saying I'm not a believer in meta as a company because I just don't think this is who they are. And I know from personal,

experience that it's so hard to change the culture of a company from what it what it believes itself to be. And I think that Google has struggled with it. And I think meta struggles with it. I think Apple, in many ways, the reason Apple's behind here is because Apple has its own separate issues. Because the products that Meta is shipping are products Apple could have shipped several years ago. They chose not to. And we say that's a mistake. Can they catch up?

I think they can. The real thing holding Apple back is that is that I think they don't get AI culturally. But anyway, so that's my, I don't like meta personally, and that probably colors my judgment a little bit.

I cannot envision. Whenever I hear them extolling the virtues of these glasses, which look really interesting. And they're like, connect them to our array of services, like WhatsApp and Instagram. And I'm like, right, meta. Like, I just, I don't like them. I think they're gross. I think their products are bad.

Even their good products get worse all the time because they can't help themselves. And I guess that's what I'm saying about this is, I think this product that they've got is really interesting. But I think that there is plenty of room for other companies that are good at hardware. Samsung is good at hardware too, culturally. Their culture is super weird, but they're really. good at hardware. I think there's room to be skeptical of meta because even though they got a head start and they are a tech giant, I don't think this is what they're good at. So other

companies that are good at this should be able to catch them and surpass them. We'll see. We'll see. This episode is brought to you by Delete Me. Delete Me makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. Too common, if you ask me. Delete me does all the hard work of wiping you and your family's personal information from data broker websites. They know your privacy is worth protecting. You sign up and you provide Delete Me with exactly what information you want deleted and their experts take it from there. I love that it is that part because I am a public person. I don't want everything, every trace of me deleted from the internet. That would be bad for my

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That is join delete me.com slash upgrade 20 with the code upgrade 20. A thanks to delete me for their support of this show and relay. It is time for some ask, upgrade questions. Anne wrote in and says, I'm a little behind in my podcasts and I've just listened to the last week's episode of Connected. Please can I recommend that Jason finds a way for Mike to attend Laser Sounds University

in the way that Jason had to attend Coin Flip University. Mike, I love everything you do, but they were terrible lasers, although not as bad as Jason's original coin flipping. Okay. I'm bad at Laser Sounds. So what sound does a train make?

Choo-choo-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch. Now, do that a bunch of times. No, no, no, you're vocalizing it. Don't vocalize it. This is the problem. Jason, I don't want to be as good as you are, Laisus. This is your thing. That's good because you're not. Exactly. You're like meta with hardware. Yep, that's me. You are, yes, I am to lasers.

I'm the apple of lasers. Just say it, on the apple of lasers. And I am the meta of lasers. They are, my lasers, see, supervillain lasers, that's what I have. You know? No, you've got a sad train. That is the sound that supervillains' lasers make.

Chee, chew, chew, chew, chew, chew, chew, chew, chew, chew. let's carry on Brent writes in I'm the Walrus I've been to Disney World these are fun questions this week I've been to a birthday style there'll be some less fun stuff maybe

who knows Brent says I've been to Disney World including Galaxy's Edge before but I'm going to be at Disneyland for the first time in November I'm really excited to walk around the Avengers campus is there anything specifically there

or at Disneyland in general that I should be looking forward to do I read these business articles about Disney and about how their parks chief is like the odds on favor to be the next CEO and I'll just tell you Avengers campus

is a beautiful space and it feels like there's a big sign up that says more stuff coming later. Yeah. It is a beautiful space and then you walk through it

and you're like is that it? It's like there's a dead end there's like nope, no more Avengers stuff here forget about it. And it's like it's just they need,

I don't know what they're working on. They are working on. a big Iron Man ride there. I think that's the thing. So I would say right now, don't get too excited to walk around Avengers campus. It's not,

it's gonna be probably good. Right now I would say, I had a good time there. It's fun. Like, it is from a theme park perspective, the idea that you're walking around inside a world,

like you go to Star Wars and you're like in Star Wars. Even if you're not on the rides, you're in Star Wars. It's great. Avengers Campus is like that, but there are no ride. I mean, there is, like, there's the Spider-Man thing, which don't, Mike's got notes here that say, don't get your hopes up.

The Spider-Man ride is fun. It's like the Buzz Lightyear kind of ride. It's lightly interactive. When I went, it was the longest line we went in, and boy, it wasn't worth it. It's not worth it. It's a fun ride, but it's not worth how long that ride. And the reason the line is long is because there's nothing else. Anyway, so I would say your number one bullet is actually my recommendation to the best time.

I had in Avengers campus is there's the PIM test kitchen where I had a beer out of a beaker and a giant pretzel. And they had that whole thing where it's like, what is it? It's like giant pretzels and teeny tiny hot dogs or whatever it is. Everything's the wrong size because it's an ant man. So that's the joke. That was our lunch or maybe it was a mid-afternoon snack. But you know, you got to sit down, take a load off because you've been walking all day.

And I got a beer, and I got, which they serve at California Adventure, which is great, and a giant pretzel. And we had a great time. It was so that was my favorite part. I still have the beaker, the souvenir beaker from Pim's test kitchen. And there'll be characters running around. And there's like a Iron Man like patrolling up on a, like a walkway above there that's kind of cool. It's like a cool vibe. But anyway, don't get too excited about Avengers campus. There's other. There's other good stuff there. I think the Radiator Springs ride, the whole Carsland is actually pretty great. And I don't love cars, but I think it looks great. Carsline is awesome, especially when, like, the 60%, 70% life-sized Lightning McQueen start driving around in the streets. It's like, whoa, what's happening? That's cool. That's really cool.

It looks really good. The streets look really good. And my pro tip for you is even if you're with other people, do the singles line for the Radiator Springs because it's a big car. It doesn't really matter. whether you're with your people. You'll be with your people in the line and then after. It doesn't matter if you're with them during and the singles line moves vastly faster than the line full of families. It's an inefficient right, that one.

It takes a really long time. So just go down the singles line and it's better down there. All right. So I've been to Disneyland a bunch. Yeah, more than me. So I have a lot of things. What I say about Avengers campus, if you are a big Marvel fan like I am, just walking in and hearing your music

will make you emotional it did me it was overwhelmed it's great it's just it's just when I left I was like yeah there was a is that all there is feeling

there is like it's great it's something to build on right it's gonna be great yeah they are in both and what they're starting to do with Avengers campus where they have actually done

with the Avengers campuses is what they should have done with the Galaxy's edges is that in different locations they are getting different rides like oh that's fun because one of the things that Disney thought would, like, oh, we'll just make Galaxy's Edge the same everywhere. But then

for Disney, that's a problem because it means that people don't feel like they need to go to the other parks. So, like, Paris has a different ride. Like, the Paris Avengers campus has, it's called Avengers Flight Force, which is a ride I did twice. The first time I loved it, the second time it gave me a headache. It is very, very fast and, like, quite an aggressive ride. But it was, I would do it again, but I definitely would not do it twice. Well, I'll say, like, the Avengers campus, it has, like, the Spider-Man thing is also, the Spider-Man above the Spider-Man ride is really cool, like, the character. Is it like, just wait for Spider-Man if you don't know what it is just wait for Spider-Man. They have an animatronic Spider-Man who leaps around. It's amazing. Fantastic. And that's really great. It's, it's, it's, as a kid who grew up loving Spider-Man, it's so cool. They're Spider-Man.

Yeah. Like, it's Spider-Man is there. There's Spider-Man. It's amazing. And I know. what's going on there and it's still it's amazing. It's so cool. The PIMS test kitchen is my favorite restaurant. It's because the food is great and you can just go at any time like you don't need a reservation. And it's really good food and you can get drinks there

too if you want to. One of my favorite rides it feels like it's kind of co-opted a little bit by Avengers campus which is Guardian's Mission Breakout which was like it's Tower of Terror but Guardians of the Galaxy. Fantastic. Such good fun. Yeah, the Spider-Man ride.

If the line is short, do it. If it's not, I don't recommend it. And I would give just a couple of other recommendations just for Disneyland in general. The Incredica coaster is my favorite ride. It is an absolutely fantastically fast, fun roller coaster. And it's also in California Adventure. And then if you're into Disneyland proper, Indiana Jones is great. Space Mountain is great.

And I love Small World. Space Mountain is really good. Big Thunder is actually my favorite rollercoaster there, but Space Mountain is really good. Rollercoaster in the dark is such a great idea. And yeah, the Star Wars stuff is great, but you've done that. And it's exactly the same. You're not going to get any of the experience.

It is great, though. It is fantastic. I love it. It's great time. They need to do more of that, but it's great. Eric writes in and says, what lesson, if any, do you think Apple will learn with the first iPhone pro of a genuinely bold color

sells really well. If the orange sells well, they will do a good color every year along with boring colors. I don't think it'll be like, oh, we should do lots of colors and give people lots of choices. I don't think they're going to do that.

I think they're just going to be like, oh, great, we'll do a bright blue next year. We'll do a bright aqua next year, whatever, and they'll just do one. Even if that's all I get, like, I'm going to be really sad to lose the orange next year. Like, that will make me really sad.

so Apple if you want to just keep doing orange I won't mind orange club I won't mind Martin says in the September Apple event Apple used the terms Apple intelligence and machine learning do you think they see them as different things and if so what do you think the difference is

I think they okay so I think they rolled all their machine learning into Apple intelligence and AI last year because they felt they were behind and they needed to show their work and now Apple intelligence is like a pain point for them. And so they kind of don't want to over talk about it.

And they're going back to machine learning because it's a different term and they think it's a thing that they're good at. I think right now Apple Intelligence is a very specific set of features that are generative for the most part that they're using. And they have walled those off

and they're no longer doing... Like, I'll tell you, I bet that cleanup feature in photos was forced into the Apple Intelligence bucket because they wanted to spiff up what they were announcing for Apple Intelligence. And I bet if that happened again now, they would have just called that a machine learning feature instead of putting it in the Apple Intelligence bucket.

Because now, you know, they were all in on Apple Intelligence and trying to tell you that Apple gets AI. And so everything went in that bucket. And now it's become a little bit of a, they're ashamed of it a little bit and they're like not talking about it as much with other features that are not, that are still machine learning, right? Machine learning is AI, like they're the same thing.

But I think Apple intelligence is a particular set of features that are based on their foundation models. If you would like to send in a question for us to answer on a future episode of the show, please go to Upgradefeedback.com. I would like to thank our members who support us of UpgradePlus. You can go to GetUpgradeplus.com and you can sign up for longer ad-free versions of the show each and every week. You can also find us on YouTube. Just search for the Upgrade podcast and you can watch a video version of the the show every week. I would like to thank our sponsors. That is, Delete Me, FitBod, and Squarespace

for their support of this show. But most of all, I would like thank you for listening. We'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snell. Goodbye, Mike Hurley.