Upgrade - 604: The Shifting Sands of Liquid Glass

Episode Date: February 23, 2026

From Relay, this is Upgrade, episode 604 for February 23, 26. Today's show is brought to you by Delete Me, Claude, Insta 360, and the Pets Table. My name is Mike Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason Snell. Hi, Mike Hurley. How are you? Very good, thank you. I have a Snell talk question for you.

This one comes in from Jim who wants to know, Jason. When you're making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, do you put the jelly on the peanut butter slice or on the bare bread slice? Wow. This is a perennial question. I feel like I've talked about this before. None of that matters to Snell Talks. They'll always all come around again. People want to know for some reason what my opinion of this is. And I do like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. It's one of my favorites. And I feel like Jim has made the classic error, the classic logical error, which is making assumptions about what all the options are for making a peanut butter sandwich. And he's gotten it wrong. He's really let himself down here. Now, while I don't have peanut butter and jelly,

I do sometimes have, like, I'll have a jam. You know, maybe I have jam on toast or something, and I will follow the same thing that you're about to say that you do, I'm sure. That's right, because we should be clear. Mike has a nut allergy. Yeah. I could have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, but it may be the last sandwich.

Ah, the last. Oh, it'd be a good one. I'd be a good one. I don't know. I don't know. So here's the answer, Jim. How you make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich is you take the peanut butter and you put a layer of peanut butter on one slice of bread. And then you put a layer of peanut butter on the other slice of bread.

Adjust according to how much peanut butter you want. And then you put the jelly on one or the other of those slices, or both, I guess, whatever. It doesn't matter. They're going together again. Why do you do this? The answer is the peanut butter seals the gooey jelly and prevents it from getting the bread wet. So you put the jelly in the middle in a pocket. surrounded by

waterproof peanut butter and then you have a good peanut butter and jelly sandwich that will survive for you can put that in a bag and take it

to school and have it for your school lunch as I did for many many many lunches over the years and it won't get soggy because the jelly is stuck in between the peanut butter layers and won't go through

as previously stated obviously I don't have a lot of first-hand peanut butter experience So are you telling me that peanut butter is waterproof? That was not a thing that I knew. I mean, even rocks aren't truly waterproof. Water resistant.

Water resistant. But what I'm saying is the peanut butter, the jelly can't get through the peanut butter. Right. The peanut butter forms a seal and the jelly can't get through. So no matter how much jelly you want to use, I mean, too much it's going to go out the sides, right? But like, it is, this is the way you make a peanut butter sandwich is you put peanut butter on either side and then the jelly goes in the middle. and then the jelly doesn't escape, except out the sides,

but it doesn't get the bread. Because what you don't want is to open up your lunch sack and find that you've got this weird, purple, wet bread goo because the jelly has been absorbed by the bread. You don't want that. No good.

Yeah, for me, this is like similar to the, you know, the scones technique, you know, of clotted cream and jam. You don't just put on one. side you put both clotted cream and jam on both halves. I mean, you do then eat them separately, but nevertheless, I don't know why you would restrict yourself to just putting one on each side of the bread. So, and please are able to clear that out for Jim, if you have a snow talk question that you would like to send in for us to open a future episode of the show, just got to upgrade feedback.com and send in your snow talk. So today's episode is pretty much entirely us covering the 2025 Six Colors Apple Report card.

We'll get to that in a little bit. But before we do, kind of the thing that's like looming in the air is the Apple experience, which is happening next week. Experience. As a reminder, this is going to be happening simultaneously in three locations around the world. Shanghai, London, and New York. Jason is going to be, I mean, I hope in New York. I will be in New York. My understanding is the weather in New York right now is intense, but maybe that hopefully that will have cleared up.

It's far away from now, isn't it? It's not next. It's not this week. So, yes, I hope that it will be okay for me to travel on Wednesday or on Tuesday. Next week. Not this week. Not this week. But there's been a little, some piece of information and some speculation about the events since we spoke last.

So in his power on newsletter, Mark German reports that Apple is planning a quote, three-day flurry of announcements with things kicking off on Monday of next week. and ending with whatever is happening on Wednesday at the experience event. Mark says there will be at least five products announced over the week. My personal bet on this is that the Wednesday item is the big deal item, probably the MacBook, and that there will be a video of some kind that debuts at the event, because this is the thing of like, oh, people say, oh, Mark says it's going to be a press release week. And we've seen these before, right?

Like Apple rolls out press releases over a course of many days, et cetera. but there's not usually like an experience event. But my thing is these, the three events happening around the world are all starting at the same time, including, which I keep bringing up, which I think is hilarious, the one in Shanghai begins at 10 p.m.,

which is just like an incredible time to have a press event. Everyone would be very tired and full of dinner, I guess. So my expectation is that they wanted this one for a reason, because they could have just done it on Thursday if they just needed the press releases all to go out. It feels to me like what this is, is, I mean, and again, I don't know.

I got an invitation to show up, put my body in New York City on Wednesday. But my guess is iPhone 17E on Monday, new iPads on Tuesday, and new Macs on Wednesday. I doubt they will split up the platforms, right? And those are three things that we think they're going to announce. So that's my guess. It could be reversed. It could be new iPads on Monday. But my guess is it's going to be kind of like that Rolling Thunder kind of thing.

And then where they'll have like phone and then iPad and then Mac. And that'll be the three-day flurry that Kerman is suspecting. Interesting. Because we're also expecting MacBook Pro. Yeah. Would you imagine they would do that on the same day? they wouldn't say do like MacBook Pro and iPad on one day? I don't think so.

I mean, this is what I'm saying is, is I expect that if there are Macs, they're not going to do MacBook Pro and iPad one day and MacBook Air and MacBook on another day. I just, to me, also logistically,

like there's Mac PR and there's iPhone PR and there are different parts of the company. Right. I just feel like they're going to tell the Mac's story. And when they tell the Mac's story, they'll say, yeah, yeah. I mean,

also because the M5, MacBook Pro will be nice, but it's just a chip bump. And then the MacBook Air, also just a chip bump. And then there's going to be that probably the wild new MacBook that will be less, probably in some ways, less compelling in terms of sales than the other products that get announced. But it's the most interesting in terms of being entirely new and a new approach for Apple. So my guess is that they would all go at once, and that would be a big Mac bonanza. but who knows? I mean, that's just a guess.

That's just my guess is that they'll roll it out like that. They could do a Mac a day if they wanted to, but I just kind of can't see it. Yeah. Okay, it's going to be interesting to see what they do. I wonder if, like, in a different timeline, you know, if Apple intelligence would have shipped on it was supposed to, if this would have been a whole event

and it also would have included some home products or something. Because it seems that they've got so much going on, but for whatever reason, not enough that they feel is event worthy. If it is the list of stuff that they have, I kind of agree with the way they're doing it. I mean, I've gone to New York before, and it's been like an iPad and a MacBook Pro, right?

Like, I've done that multiple times. I've been to New York for new MacBook Pros multiple times now. Yeah. I think of three times at least. So I feel like this is just their usual at this point. And, you know, the details matter. Like, I assume that we're going to get there.

at for this experience at 9 a.m. and they will have already made or they will will be making that announcement and I don't know the details. I don't know if we're going to get brief before about it or if I'm going to have to like text Dan and say, can you cover this? Because I'm in the middle of an Apple experience right now. You know, once we, once we hear, I don't know how they're going to handle it logistically from a press standpoint.

But, you know, them rolling out a product a day for a few days is a trick they like to pull sometimes. They've done that fairly recently. So I don't know. I'm looking forward to seeing it. You know, my best guess, I know I said this last week, is that the experience itself is going to be a way for press and influencers and all of that to be told Apple's story about all of these products with demos. And this is the, for those who don't know, like when they did Final Cut camera a few years ago on the iPad Pro,

they had a studio setup with iPhones running Final Cut camera and an iPad running Final Cut Pro. And they showed us what the person on the iPad was doing to adjust the iPhones and to record and what came out. And then we went into another place where there was like a MacBook Pro. And it was an audio studio. And they were showing us logic or something like that. Right. Like they have these hands-on areas where you can say, I touched the product. I looked at it, but they also do the storytelling part of it.

And then remember, again, these products probably won't come out for another week, right? That's usually how they do it. They take about a week to load it into stores, and that's the week where you'll get the embargoed reviews right before the products go on sale. So it'll be interesting to see the details. But in the end, what we're going to get is we're going to get some new Apple stuff next week. And that's exciting. It was interesting. I was trying to think back to what is analogous to this set of products.

And it would have been the March 2022 Apple event, which was the last time they did a March event. and the reason I was thinking about this is this is when they introduced the Mac Studio like that was like the brand new thing and it's just it's just interesting to me that it's not that it does say anything but it's just interesting about you know they're introducing potentially

introducing a new Mac next week and like that event by the way was a new iPhone SE with 5G green color for the iPhone 13 Pro iPad Air with M1 and the Mac Studio and studio display

and it's just yeah so it's just interesting I'm not saying anything about it but it's like that was the last time they introduced like a brand new Mac and it was also in a March event and it kind of headlined that event so peak performance was the name of that one John Gruber is very keen on the idea

that Apple could use this time to do something related to F1 especially with the Vision Pro the F1 season begins in a couple of weeks it's actually that week so Sunday the 8th is going to be the Australian Grand Prix, which is the first Grand Prix in the Apple TV era. John has been talking about it on Daring Fireball and on his podcasts and stuff about the potential

for some kind of immersive experience for the Vision Pro. And if they were to do that, they could show it in it. So they could show something, an example of it, at least to media in advance. I just wanted to talk about this because I'm not sure about that. I don't, I don't know if we'll have anything that's immersive for F1. Yeah, I mean, anything is possible. Anything is possible on having people an experience like that. I mean, because you're going to need people to put on their Vision Pro and stuff like that. I mean, I doubt it, but I think it's possible.

I want to use this, though, to say something about what I expect Apple's F1 strategy for Vision Pro to be, which is I don't expect it to be immersive video. I expect it to be an immersive experience where you've got, like that app that tried to do this for a little while and then disappeared. It's going to be you can put up whatever cameras you want and have a whole bunch of cameras visible in your field of view in the Vision Pro and maybe a model of the course that's showing a 3D model of where the cars are on the course.

And so like an immersive dashboard full of content from F1, not what I think a lot of people keep thinking is going to be what Apple does, which is put you on a car immersively. Not only is that almost impossible technically, but it would make you sick and it would be boring after a while. And also, these cameras would just be too heavy. It would mess up the races.

Like these are precision machines. It's impossible technically to do it. And they, I mean, generally with racing, I remember when they did this with IndyCar, that eventually what happens is the car spec includes a camera, right? Yep. And then everybody has a camera in the same place and it's just part of the spec. But that's how it works. Literally, the design of the car has to include the camera for it to work this way. And they just did a new design, but I don't think there's an immersive camera at the back of it, right?

So, and you don't want it. I mean, you don't want to see that. So they might do that. Given the sort of pace of Apple and this stuff, I feel like Apple's big, like, let's try something interesting technically, tends to come at the end of their season and not at the beginning. So I wouldn't be surprised if toward the end of the season or, at some marquee race during the season. They announced that they've got a new Vision Pro experience.

I'm not sure also just practically that Apple wants to waste their time on a major product launch event on Vision Pro. Sorry, Vision Pro. So this also is just a moment where I wanted to just reflect a little bit on Formula One on Apple TV. Because I think we're getting very close to the first race now with very little specific information about how things are going to be working. So the Apple TV app now, I understand, has a Formula One tab,

and it has all the races listed in it, so you can add them to your watch list, and it has a bunch of educational content, which is, I expect coming from F1 TV. Now, Mike, you know how it is that they started, like, pushing MLS content everywhere? Yeah. It's like that.

Okay. There's just, like, F1, like you see F1, and there's an F1 row in the main view, and they want to show you that there's an F1 thing. Like, it's a lot. lot, there's a lot going on. Oh, interestingly, they have a lot of Sky Sports content in there. So that is fascinating to me. Zoe just posted a thing that's this Sky Sports, which means Mike may still be right about who's going to be doing, but we still do not know. And I've been doing Furious

Googling for this to try and find out who are the default announcers? And at the moment, it just seems like everybody has opinions. Now, what Zoe is saying is that there may be two feeds, so you may be able to choose, which I think is great, between Sky Sports and F1. But that will be fascinating to me because it will do the weird thing if they do that, which is you will be able to watch the F1 races on Apple TV, and they will talk about the things you can do as a Sky Sports customer and recommend out of additional Sky Sports content, which they do during the race. Because that was always the thing when you watched it on ESPN.

You would still be hearing the Sky Sports stuff. And that's why it won't be the default. It won't be the default. But I'm pleased that they will offer it because some people do prefer the British announcers because that's who they're used to hearing. Because that's who they're used to. Yeah. So that's cool that they're going to have that potentially.

But I'm keen to see how it will be. But the fact that it's labeled currently as events and then events, colon, sky sports, seems to indicate what the default will be. But nevertheless, I feel like there is still so much that has not. That we don't know. That we don't know. The one thing they have announced is that a. selection of races will be shown live in iMacs theaters throughout the year.

Love it. Great. Hilariously, as I've found, like, just Googling around about this, it's trying to find, like, what does this mean? Because I don't think what it means is they're using any IMAX cameras to shoot races. Like, I can't, of course, find anything about that. But some of the races that they've chosen are some of the European races, which would mean in Pacific time, these are at like six in the morning. I'm not sure. I'd be surprised if the theater's open for those, because they will be live.

Potentially, this is where a Vision Pro element could come in if they were doing anything technically impressive for this content. But if that was the case, I would also have imagined them to announce that alongside this announcement that Apple have made. This is like an Apple announcement. They're a partner in with IMAX to show these races. So yeah, I'm intrigued to see. Maybe we're going to hear something in the next week. currently there is not a lot of information about what the first race is going to look like on Apple TV.

Yeah. So I can say from MLS that I got a couple of MLS briefings that were like the week before the season started where they had their sports people talking about what they were going to do and we got to ask questions and I got to ask

my question about are you doing anything in 4K and the answer is no which always was very disappointing to me. We'll see. if, you know, maybe they will do that, whether it's with me or not, maybe they will do some of that. I feel like, and I could be wrong about this, but I feel like Apple PR knows that I do sports. That makes any sense. Like when I got called to talk to Eddie, I was by no means the only person who got to talk to Eddie about the sports app.

But I got the sense that one of the reasons I got invited is because I get sports. Yeah, you're a sports guy. Yeah. Yeah, and so And I also have gotten those MLS briefings. So maybe And I've watched an F1 race sitting on the couch right next to my good friend, Mike. The ex-pop will call me.

Oh, that's such a happy memory I have. That was a really good time. That was a good time. The baby was asleep for much of it. Most of it. I would say Vos Madari. She was pretty good. By the way, happy birthday to your daughter.

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. She was so bad. I kept thinking back. I know it's like a blur to you. I kept thinking back to the fact that you were on leave for all that time. And honestly, it's like a blur to me. I'm like, wow, I did whatever six, eight episodes of upgrade without Mike in a row.

That was wild. But now it's just all receded into the past. And it's like it didn't even happen. And there's Sophia. It's great. Yep. She is one year old. That was yesterday.

Anyway, so all of this to say, our plan for the draft hasn't changed. So we're going to be drafting on Monday. It's possible that some of our picks will be unavailable to us if they do a press release before we record. Yeah. This is how it's going to work. We're going to make a list of the things that are possible. And everything that gets announced Monday morning before we record is ineligible. Yeah. That's it.

And so then we'll just do the draft. And obviously it was always going to be a smaller draft anyway. And this may make it even smaller. that. We'll find out. But we are still going to be drafting on Monday. And we'll do kind of a slightly adapted rule set which you've done before. So, you know, it will be within the seven-day window. Anything that happens will be counted. So we'll see where it goes. Exactly. Yeah. This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Claude from Anthropic.

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each item just for my own records. So I thought I would give Claude this data and it produced an amazing app for me, with trends, forecasts, product spikes, insights and more. I've spent time working with Claude to help me adapt the system to work exactly the way that I want, and it is now what I'm using to track my sales and gain insights about my business. Co-work brings Claude codes a gentic power to your desktop, no terminal required, so anyone can use and have Claude do real work. Point it to a folder on your computer or add connectors like Google Drive and Gmail.

Describe what you need, and it handles the rest, like organizing files, building spreadsheets, or drafting reports from scattered notes. queue up tasks and come back to finished work. I've been really impressed by the connectors feature when using Claude Co-work, which I tried out today for the first time. I was able to hook up Claude to Notion and have it search through my notes to pull out some thoughts for a project that I'm working on. Then I was able to give it some other text files that I have in my computer

and put those into the conversation to pull everything together. I really liked the learning mode here, where you can watch the thought process happening in real time and refer back to it later. It helps me understand how to better find. fine-tune responses later on and add in important contacts that I think might help. Are you ready to tackle bigger problems? Get started to Claude today at Claude.a.ai slash upgrade.

That is Claude.a.ai slash upgrade and check out Claude Pro, which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode. That is clod.a.ai slash upgrade are thanks to Claude from Anthropic for their support of this show. So it is time to dig in to the six colors report card. for 2025. Jason, what is the Sixth Coles Report Card? So it is a survey of people I know and people they know who have like opinions.

I think what I refer to them as is Apple Watchers, people who spend time thinking about Apple, writers, editors, developers, podcasters, and others. And I've been doing this for 11 years, hard to believe. It was a recommendation, Coyvin, made to me two months into doing six colors. He was like, I have an idea for a thing. And maybe you could do it. And I did it. And I still do it.

And the idea is to get sentiment. It is a sense of sentiment about what people are thinking, I call it in my true California style. I call it the vibe in the room. It is not meant to surprise you. It's meant to reflect what you've been sensing, whether you agree. or not from podcasters, writers,

developers, other people on the internet, on social media who are big, like, kind of Apple-focused people, what they've been feeling the last year,

or about, and especially about the last year, because I asked these questions in January. It's a little later this year to post, mostly because of some other things that we will,

that I got knocked back like two or three weeks for other stuff that I'll talk about it in another time. Exciting stuff. Really exciting stuff. We'll talk about that soon.

Lots of things going on. A lot of surprising things in my inbox this last month. Let's just put it that way. And we'll get back to that as those things happen. But so, but it's out now. And so they were asked about 14 different subjects and asked to rate them on the scale from one, which is worse, to five, which is best. And then also optionally provide text commentary, which every year they seem to provide about 32,000 words of text commentary, which I I also post to the website.

So the idea here is basically, how are people feeling about Apple and its platforms in a bunch of different categories? And to say it up front, a lot of people say, I really wish you could have this category broken in two or three. And let me talk about the Mac software and hardware separately because I have this year,

it's like I have very positive feelings about Mac hardware and negative feelings about Mac software. And my response is, first off, I don't want it to be a 30-point survey. I think it's hard to read. I think there are too many categories as it is, but I've had to add some,

because Apple's kind of expanse of products and its reach has changed and grown. So I've had to expand that a little bit. But the other part is I kind of like the idea of making people pick an overall score about a platform. Like, yeah, you can separate Mac hardware and Mac software, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking how the Mac is doing. And you need to decide how the Mac is doing considering all of the things that happened and the iPhone and the iPad, etc. So there are a bunch of platform questions, and then there are a bunch of other category Apple questions that go into the mix. And I don't vote in the survey.

I just calculate. I use my spreadsheet. I calculate results. I make some charts. I pull some quotes. And then we've got a story. But I make you give your results here. This is why I love doing this.

Yes, part of this game is that I will have not even decided what I would have. voted in any of these categories and Mike will just say what's your score and I have to make something up. Because I mean that's I mean that is the experience for me. I don't know if it's the experience for most people that vote. I vote in the survey every year. I'm honored to be asked. I just go through it and just start scoring and then just write about how I feel. So it's very vibes focus for me. I think there's probably a lot of people that have very different approaches, maybe more scientific than others. So what I do is I put my vote in and then I see. save, it's like a Google form and I just save a PDF of it and then I reflected on it today.

And when I was going back over it today, I realized that like some of my stuff I'm not sure is weighted correctly against each other and we'll kind of get to that later on. But it's how I feel about each item. And the situation is that basically it is hard to compare, say, the iPhone to world impact, I feel like, right? And so like the weighting of it can be a bit funny sometimes. So we'll talk about that as we go. And I'd say the idea, too, because I do sometimes get comments about it less now than maybe in the earlier days of like, the question of like it's not meant to be scientific, right?

Like the part of the part of this is that there are going to be extreme opinions. And also in some of these categories, it's how you define it. Yeah. And I don't tell them how to define it. I give a very broad like tell me, and we'll go through the categories and I'll say when when I give them. this. But like the last one that we'll talk about world impact, which used to be social and environmental impact, like, it's what you want it to be. That's part of the test. Part of the test is how do you view this? And then how do you think they did? And your personal priorities of the 56 people who answered the survey are what come out. And then it gets averaged. And the outliers are in there, but they're going to get pushed down by the average. But there's going to be a

trend. And that's that's what I'm trying to get here is I'm not trying to prove anything. People who are angry about a particular category will be like, what are you trying to? And it's like, I'm really not. I'm really just trying to, the only thing I'm trying to prove is this seems to be a trend where people are happy or unhappy about X. And that's it. That's all I'm trying to do is like, how do we understand generally how people felt about Apple in 2025, how the year went. Sometimes it is almost like a Rorschach test on a five-point scale, which is a hilarious thing to do. But it is that, like you can see it. I feel like I can see it in some of these results, which we will get to in just a moment, where I feel like some categories have taken huge hits where I'm not sure that they needed to. Some people are very comfy. So let's start.

See was angry that day. Yeah, let's start with a Mac. So the overall panel of Judge, no, participants. Panelists, the panelists. They voted this. Remember, this is a five-point scale, 3.5, which is down from 4.2 year over year. The overall sentiment is that Mac hardware is still great,

but Tahoe is the biggest issue. We've half-baked visuals and usability issues that come from the liquid glass redesign. Apple Silicon is still. great, but the offering has now become complex. I'm assuming this is mostly referencing, say, like, the M3 making a return. Yeah, I think that that's exactly what it is, is, is, hardware was great, people really hate Tahoe. Some people really hate Tahoe. The Apple Silicon is still great. And then, yes, people were like, well, this is also the year that they came out with an M3

Ultra. Like what? While there was an M4 and then there was an M5 and the idea of like I feeling I mean some people don't care and some people are like it feels a little messy. And fair enough. This is the range of opinions about this. The only other thing I would say here is that Apple Silicon vaulted this max score up in 2020 to a record high level of a 4.7 average out of average out of five like that's everybody voted five on that right. Like that's. That's like amazing. It has come all the way back down, gradually sliding over time to now down at 3.5,

which is basically where it was before Apple Silicon was announced. Not the trough of sort of the butterfly keyboard era, but not great. And I think it's giving back. Isn't it? Because it's now in between the 2018 to 2019 range, which is butterfly keyboard at time. Well, I feel like 2016 at 2.6 and 2017 at 2.9,

Like, it was real bad in the... That was when it's worse. Last half. And it has not gone down to those numbers, but it has given back all of the good feeling of Apple Silicon. Yeah. And I think that, again, I would say that is almost entirely due to people's feelings about Tahoe. And this is what I was just referencing. I think this is one of the categories, which I think has been hit way harder from my perspective than it should have been.

I don't think that... Like, so we've had... It's been 4.2. In 22, 23, 24, I would not say that Tahoe is that bad that it takes it back to the pre-apple silicon, somewhat dull drums of the Mac, where everything else is as good, if not better than it has been for the last multiple years. Like all the hardware stuff, it's like, okay, some things in Tahoe don't look as good as they used to.

Like that is, from my perspective, essentially what we're dealing with. I think the usability issues that are evident in 26, they are not problems that I ever encounter on the Mac. So my score was a four. So my comments were that basically 2025 wasn't a particularly exciting year for the Mac. Like I think this year will be fantastically exciting with what could be coming this year. But for me, the product line is on a continued excellent trajectory to the point that I would struggle to knock it from, you know, it can't be a five, but for me, for it to be lower than a four is kind of inconceivable.

Yeah, I get it. Where are you at? Well, Mike, the question now is, am I going to be a rascal? Mm-hmm. Am I going to, am I going to be a rascal and generate content, or am I going to be reasonable? Be a rascal, Jason, be a rascal. Okay. Five.

Yeah, I agree with you. I love it. Five, five. Five. So here's the thing. And look, everybody gets to have their opinion. Enjoy it. I appreciate it.

There's some really great comments in there. I think the hubbub about Tahoe is completely overblown. My biggest complaint about Tahoe and liquid glass is that they basically, it's an afterthought. And as a result, I think it's actually the least bad of all of them. There are a bunch of people who said it was the most bad. I don't agree at all. I think it's the least bad of all of them. Not because it's well done.

It's not well done. It's because they did very little because they don't care about the Mac and it was an afterthought. And I think it was actually a blessing that Liquid Glass was an afterthought on the Mac because we dodged a bullet there. There's stuff that's not great. Most of it is not a big deal. I've been using Tahoe since the developer beta two, I think. And it's fine. The people, it's just, I just get a sense, again, I'm not trying to run anybody down, but I do get a sense that people are just looking for

things to complain about a lot of the time. And I get a sense of like, oh, I touch something and it was slimy. And it's like, well, wipe your hand off and move on with your life. Like, I just, I find it entirely usable. Even though some of the decisions are bad and they shouldn't have made them, I could say the same thing about the decisions they've made about like the settings app and stuff like that. There's things that Apple has done in terms of the design of the Mac that are bad.

Does it merit people avoiding Tahoe? I would say no. And I would say no, partially because. because Ta has the most productivity features of a new Mac OS in like 10 years. Spotlight rules. Spotlight is so good. The spotlight stuff,

the clipboard history, the automation triggers on the Mac, like there's so much good stuff there. So like, you don't have to like liquid glass. I don't like it. I think that what they did was kind of half-hearted. I think that's good for the Mac.

Also, you just get used to it and it's not that big a deal. Is it going in the wrong direction? Sure. Does it impact my day-to-day use of my Mac? not even a little. So yeah, if you're somebody who's like, well, I can't bear to update and get all these new features of Tahoe

because if I click a drop-down menu, there will be confusing icons there and I'm opposed to them. It's like, I don't like them. They're bad. But like, I just ignore them. I just don't, I just don't care. So that's my salty five, which is, oh, I love it.

Which is just, I just don't. And then the hardware is so good. And again, if you're really upset and you're downgrading them because they did an M3 Ultra instead of an M4 Ultra, like, I don't know what to tell you. The M3 Ultra was incredibly impressive for people who wanted it. I don't know what's going on with the Mac Pro, but nor do I care. It just feels like it's a dead product at this point. And the M5 was amazing and had all that AI stuff in it that means that local AI on Apple products is now like incredibly powerful.

So like, I don't know. I just, yes, if I was a little more measured, I might say, four for those reasons, but if I'm going to be a little salty, I'm going to say five, because I think that a lot of the reasons that people are knocking down the Mac this year, I just don't agree. That's why I'm not allowed to vote. I agree with you completely. I mean, but I went for a four just because I feel like I have to leave room for when the hardware is extra special, which many years in the last few it has been. And I kind of feel like I don't want to do 25 as a four, as a five, and I think 26 will be

a five. Here is a challenge with this survey, is that it. it's years-based and different people, again, different people can view it in different ways. A lot of the people in the survey clearly view it as what did they do in 2025? I don't. I view it as where are we in 2025? Where are we now? I'm not going to knock, like if there was no new revised design of a Mac in 2025, because they revised a bunch of them in 24 and 23 and they're great and they're

really on a new cycle and everything is fine, I'm not going to knock them down because they didn't do something novel to amuse me, right? Like, it's just, I, and I understand other people just view it through the lens of, well, what did they do in 25? It was just a bunch of little step updates. So I'm going to give them a lower grade. And I just, I, I'm not interested in viewing it that way. Like, do I, do I knock the MacBook Air, the, the M4 MacBook Air? Because it's the same design as the M2, but has an M4 in it? No. I mean, I could knock it for those. the sky blue that was not blue. But, but like, no, it's, that platform is in a good place.

So I, and, you know, the new Mac Mini, it looks great. Like, I have no complaints about it. The Mac Studio is good. The MacBook Pro is good. Um, the IMac is good. Like, I just don't, I'm not concerned about that when I'm looking at 2025. I'm, I'm asking the question, where are we now? Not what did they do to amuse or please me in 2025, if that makes sense.

It's more about status. than it is about achievements in the year. Well, I want you to know if it was possible for me to change my score, I would change it to a five because you have sold me on that. It should be a five. Too late. It's too late, but I just... That's okay.

We're both at four and a half. That's great. There you go. You love it. We balance that. Mine doesn't count, though, unfortunately. iPhone. Panel is a 3.9 up from a 3.7 year over year.

This is based on the strength of the overall lineup. The base 17 model got a bunch of much needed features. People love the 17 Pro. a bit more polarized on the air, but liquid glass was criticized. Not entirely, but it was. And again, a travesty. I think this is a travesty.

I went for five out of five because I think, I've said it on this show, the 2025 lineup of iPhones is, I think, the best lineup of iPhones that Apple has ever produced. Across the board, every single phone is brilliant. Basically, all you need to do

is decide which iPhone you want. Not like, it's not this backwards thing. You can just choose any of them. It's not like, oh, I need battery life. No, you're just like, oh, they'll all do a great job. Oh, I need a good camera. They'll all do a great job. So like every iPhone is fantastic this year.

That last year, you could just choose. And overall, I am very happy with iOS 26. I know that there are rough edges, but I don't care about them. Because I like the way the liquid glass looks. I like the ideas represented in the redesign, as well as the look of it. I like the animation. I like the fluidity of the system.

And I have also really enjoyed seeing how some apps have reworked their interfaces to match apples. I think some of the information hierarchy of iOS 26 apps I much prefer to what they were replacing. So this is an easy five out of five for me, the easiest five out of five that I give

for the 2025 scorecard. Yeah, it's a five for me too. Absolutely. Again, I mean, liquid glass, it's got its issues. Was it, I mean, it was always going to be kind of half-baked, but it was more like quarter-baked. They made some assumptions. Again, I think I don't agree with the people who are like, roll it back, make it back to the old version.

I just don't. Like, I think it's a new look and feel. And when you do that, things break. I think they should have put more thought into it. I think that there were some mistakes in the formulation of it that came from kind of missteps in the design process. that said, I don't have a hard time using my phone. And it's all, it's fine. And this was absolutely in the most important product category for Apple,

the best product year they've had in ages from the air, which is an amazing, weird, but like amazing product that also feels like you're using a phone from the future to that iPhone 17 Pro with the new anodized aluminum back, and especially in orange, It's so good. I still look at my iPhone and marvel at it, even now at how good it is, and how good it looks all the time.

So, and then the 17 got all those pro features. There's so much good stuff here that, again, I feel like Apple riding high on so much about its most important product category. There is not enough there about liquid glass for me to notice, basically. So five. Yeah, absolutely. It's fantastic.

I mean, this one is a heartbreaker for me. Like, it didn't even pass four. It's like, yeah, I just, I would love to see some of the individual scores. People were grumpy. They were grumpy about Apple. I think that we'll get to it, but like, I think people are not going to cut Apple

a lot of slack this year, and I think that goes into it, and that is part of the vibe in the room. But I would, you know, again, this is why I don't insert myself in the survey. my opinion is that whether it's grumpiness about Apple or just a trend to everybody wants to get in some shots on liquid glass, which is not, it's certainly worthy of criticism,

but I feel like the balance there has tipped way beyond the level that is actually deserved. And I think part of that has to be because of the rest of the atmosphere of how people feel about Apple right now. So they're letting them have it. This episode is brought to you by, our friends over at Delete Me. Delete Me makes it easy, quick and super safe and simple to remove

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slash upgrade 20 with the code upgrade 20. Our thanks to delete me for their continued support of this show and relay. So we now go to the iPad, The panel voted for the iPad at 3.7, which is up from 3.5 year over year. The windowing system in iPad OS 26, this brought people back to the iPad, but still some skepticism over the purpose of the product. I find it fascinating that the windowing system is so good, I guess, that it's the thing that can knock the trend away of liquid glass. Like, fascinating to me.

This was a year where there was no significant iPad hardware in 2025, right? I think just updates. Yeah. So the big iPad Pro was 2024, wasn't it? When they had the tandem OLED. That was the 24. Right. That was the M4 and now it's an M5.

So there wasn't anything significant there. It still received liquid glass, but the windowing system was enough to push it up, which I agree with, like I think that this should be as good a score as, you know, we've had for the iPad, which it nearly is. The best score was 4.1 and then 4 in 2017, 2018, 2019. But this brings it up to like the 2020 level, which was 2020 level of iPad. That's magic keyboard territory. Like that was a good time. For me, five out of five again. iPad OS 26, it's reignited my love of the iPad. I think,

that Apple has done a great job of letting the iPad be the best that it can be with the constraints of what the iPad kind of inherently is. It's never going to be the Mac. It's still going to be more rigid. But now they're allowing me to use the apps on that are on the platform in the way that makes the most sense to me. Multiple on screen, freely resizing them. It works great with Stage Manager for me. I'm a big fan. And it's so good that it encouraged me to buy a MagicCube again, which I've not used the magic keyboard years, but this system just sings with it. So I love

it. Five out of five. Yeah, we're the five boys today so far. Well, it'll go down from here, but I agree. I have a hard time given what's in iPadOS 26, not saying five out of five. Again, there were only speed bumps, and if you view this as A, what did you do

for me this year, it was less dramatic, but I think that's because the iPad is in a pretty decent place. They were about to see some updates. I think that the base iPad needs to be better than it is. But like, they've solved the windowing problem. They added a bunch of other features, including solving the podcast problem. Like, I can't go against that.

I bought an M5 iPad Pro. I think it's great. And I think the iPad is great for what it is as an iPad. I understand that there are people who use this survey every year to question why the iPad exists. I don't know what to tell you. The iPad exists to be an iPad. So, and it's pretty good. at it and it's doing pretty well. If you feel like you want to vote it down because it isn't

what you want it to be entirely fair. But what I don't want it to be somebody, oh, who was it? Matt Burchler, I think. A friend of the show, hi, Matt. Posted a wild idea that he was like, I think they're going to get rid of iPad OS and there's just going to be iOS and it'll run on iPhones and lower it iPads and that the iPad Peril just run MacOS and that'll be the end of the iPad OS. And it's like, I love a hot take, but that is so wrong. I think Matt may be on to something, but it's in the wrong direction. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, it's a good subject for another day. I'll just say the iPad Pro is not a Mac. And this year, they solved, or last year, they solved one of the biggest problems of it. It is true. It's capable of so much. And the software isn't there for a lot of it. It is a frustration. But I use my iPad all the time and I love it. And I use it in lots of contexts. And I just, I just, I just,

don't have a problem with it. I think that they're doing pretty well. And so I'm pretty happy with the state of the platform after a year like this. So yes, in that way, in that way, I've decided my, I don't feel dissatisfied that the iPad is not something it's, it's, it's, it's not something that it's not. And I'm more encouraged by the fact of where we are now given the improvement. And if that makes me inconsistent with my previous votes, so, uh, so be it. I think that that 2025 is the, that Apple actually display what they think the iPad can be and what it is. Like, I think this is the clearest way that they have been able to speak about the iPad and show it, because often the way they speak about it, it doesn't work that way. They have not actually been able to

demonstrate what they are showing, but now I feel like it's aligned. Like, the way they feel about this computer and the way this computer works, I think, are now the closest they've ever been. If you told me five years ago that at the end of 2025, there'd be a full-born Mac chip in the iPad Pro. It would have complete windowing, Mac-style, entirely, you know, just open Mac-style windowing. Traffic lights and everything. Traffic lights and everything.

And it would have all of these other software improvements. And it ran Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro. And, you know, Apple's Pro apps had come over to it. I wouldn't believe you. But that's where we are. And it's not everything that everybody wants. That's life. But I think it's in such a better place now.

Wearables. So wearables is actually a bunch of categories all broken up. So there is an overall and also separate scores for Apple Watch and Vision Pro. The overall score for the panel was at 3.5, which is down from 3.6. Essentially, the thing that would fall into the overall category from the things that you pulled out,

the AirPods Pro 3 were polarizing. And I gave this category of 3 for this reason. So I enjoy the performance of the AirPods Pro 3. The noise cancellation is astoundingly good. I think they're brilliant at doing all of that. But this was the first model that felt physically uncomfortable to me for the first couple of weeks. And I am used to them now, but they are absolutely not as comfortable to wear. I also have a thing where, you know, like let's say I'm watching something in bed.

If I put my head in just the wrong angle close to the pillow, they whistle in my ears. So I don't know. Whistling. Yeah. Don't know why they're doing that. A friend of the show, underscore David's. Smith, he couldn't stop his from whistling, like, all the time. Maybe it's like something to do with the shape of his ear.

Not that I'm saying anything about underscores ears, but, you know, I don't know what's going on in there. But yeah, fascinating product. They do a great job, but they're just no set of AirPods before felt to me like they were making tradeoffs. They were just improving in those tradeoffs this time. So it was surprising to me. We talked about it when we were in Memphis.

since then they've just settled in for me, and I have no issues with them at all, but I think that why I described this as surprisingly polarizing, right? Like, this is Apple's killer product. And I think everybody expected AirPods Pro 3 to just continue on a path where everybody would be like,

oh, my God, they're so much better. And instead, some people said they were so much better. And other people are like, I don't like them. Like, they're uncomfortable or they've got weird quirks about them. And I think that's interesting. I don't think they're bad, but I think that they,

I was surprised that they didn't kind of go from strength to strength, and they, and they didn't. I would give this a three as well, because it's not, it's not just about AirPods. It's about overall. I think having new AirPods pro, and I like them a lot. I think that that's actually a great release. It's the other parts of the wearables category for Apple where, um, there are a lot of issues. Yep. Apple Watch. The panel is at 3.4, down from a 3.7, essentially incremental updates, uh, was the issue here. I gave the Apple Watch a two out of five. To me, the Apple Watch has become desperately boring as a product line. And, you know, I will say this was not included in my scoring, but I will just say it here.

You know, one of the Apple Watch's best things is fitness. But the fitness app has become really hard to use. The iOS 26 redesign of the fitness app is very bad. When you're trying to select a workout. If you scroll, that screen just goes on forever. It feels like it's lost the idea of how scrolling should work on the device. And you have to wait. The part that gets me that is really unforgivable is you have, you select a workout and you have to wait for the animation to animate before you see your options. And the old one, you just scrolled and the buttons were on the scroll and then you tap start and you start. Now it's like it's zoomed in and then it has to zoom out and they fade in and then you can tap and it's like what are we even doing here.

And maybe you can shortcut it, but it's like that, but why show it that way? I don't like it. I probably say three because I still use my Apple Watch. I wear it every day and I like it and I use it for a lot of stuff. But you're not wrong. It's boring. It seems stalled. Yes.

The OS is, you know, they made some changes to it. I don't know if they're positive changes. It feels kind of lost. I don't know whether some of that is the legacy of like they wanted it to be a whole app machine. And now they kind of don't, but there are still apps that are in it. And like, I don't know. I hate to say it, but it's given off some Apple TV vibes to me now where it's almost like they've decided that it's fine. And they're not going to pay it much attention anymore.

And I think it's not fine enough. And that's a mistake. And that's how I feel about the Apple TV too. Also, because they're a leader in this category still in a lot of ways. they maybe feel less pressure to do more, and they need to do more. And that's on the software side. And then the hardware side, I think you're right. Like, I like my Apple Watch.

I like how thin it is. I like how big the screen is. I think it's a good balance. But you're right, it is, it does feel boring, right? I can't believe it still looks the way it does. Like, that essentially it's the same thing. Like, it just hasn't changed at all, really. Like, in the ways in which it has changed, I mean, you can't.

kind of hold two Apple watches up off, you know, next to each other. It's like, oh, that was a little bit bigger, but like, it's the same thing, you know? Yeah, yeah. I mean, the Ultra is different, and that's good. But, like, I agree. It just, it feels, and, you know, they could be busy as, as bees on the inside working on this stuff. But from the outside, it feels like Apple has kind of, like, decided that they're done with the Apple Watch. And I think that's a mistake.

Not finished with it like they've given up, but, like, they've completed it. And now they can just be, well, that's it. We've given that to the world. Let's maintain it and move on. And I think that's a mistake. Something I wonder about, slash worry about, like looking at previous rumor Roundup reporting

from Mark Gurman and others is like, Apple is working on, you know, trying to make a big leap in health and fitness. You know, they've been trying to get that glucose monitor and going forever. And I wonder,

like, is there a new whiz-bang version of the Apple Watch that includes that feature potentially? But they just, they can't ship it because it's not done. They haven't finished that feature. And so there's a new redesign that includes this and it's going to be a huge deal. But now we're just, we're just waiting and they're going to keep iterating until they're going to. And I don't know. And I don't know if maybe all those reports about

Eddie Q, you know, coming in and killing the Fitness Plus idea and rolling features back into the health app and stuff like that. If that, I mean, I would, my gut feeling is that that that would be good for the Apple Watch as well, that maybe there is a real, um, that that whole group just kind of got mired in all of that. I would say about that. You mentioned the sensor. Like, glucose monitoring on the Apple Watch, well, gee, that would be great. Sure. Right. But like, is that your product path for the Apple Watch? Is, let's

just keep it the way it is and add sensors to it? Because I don't think that's probably all you should be doing, but no. I don't know. And then the Vision Pro, the panel rated at a... Did you give a score for the Apple Watch, sorry? Oh, three. Three.

Vision Pro, panel rated at 2.2, down from a 2.4. essentially the Vision Pro continues to be acknowledged by many as impressive technology, but lacks purpose, demand, or developer kind of engagement. I went for a two out of five as well here. I was very surprised that they revised the Vision Pro hardware this year. I like the new strap option, but this platform just has not gotten to where I was hoping that it would.

I respect Apple continuing to do things. Like they are still doing things. The operating system got good enhancements in 26. And while slow and small, they do continue to do new stuff on it, new content. Like, here's something else. Here's something else. I respect them doing that, considering how the world around it doesn't seem to care. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm torn here. I think I'm going to just put it right down the middle at three. The fact that they did an update, but it didn't really do anything. but they did do an update. They announced accessories for it. Works with the Sony hand controllers. There's that new Logitech, you know, pencil, basically that I have here and I have not used it. So I've got to do that.

I've been busy with many other things in my life, but I'm working on that. And, you know, this year, right, they did a live, they announced it last year. They did a live NBA game and they're doing more of those. and they've got, you know, there's stuff going on. I agree. I think there's a real letdown with a Vision Pro because, and if you go back and you look at it, I think it's all understandable in a way, which is this product is not, it's an experiment. It was always an experiment.

When it came out, it was clear. It was so expensive. It was impractical. I think Apple's failure here is not to get people to buy them. I think Apple's failure here is in getting developers excited about building the future. And there are some. And there are a lot of like filmmakers who are very interested in generating content for it. I think having the sports test with the NBA, that's really interesting because they could sell a bunch.

This is also the year where they seem to have pivoted away from making a lighter Vision Pro to starting with some glasses and building up from there, which I think is probably the right approach. I think the truth thing about the Vision Pro is it is simultaneously Apple's most amazing hardware they've ever built and a pretty impressive piece of operating system software and also nowhere near something that regular people would want to buy. Like a decade away. So what I hope happens is the Vision Pro continues to just exist as a platform for people to try, for people to experiment with and for stuff like edge case stuff like live NBA games or. immersive F1. I think that they're if they can keep that going, because I do think that ultimately there's a product like this that is more affordable and will be more broadly used or will feed into products that are more affordable and more broadly used. But this is just so far, it's just so far off. And, and you see it in the whole category, right? Like, it's not like meta is embracing

VR. They've pivoted to AI entirely, right? They've, they, I mean, games. was their thing and then they've just closed with the game studios and they closed the fitness app which I was cool super natural.

Is it supernatural? Supernatural. Yeah. They shut that one down. They shut it down. So they bought it and then they shut it down. So like I'm really torn

on the visible. I like it and yet I don't find reasons to use it and there's not a lot there when you do it but some of the stuff in it is spectacular and I think it's an amazing

piece of hardware. So like I want to keep them them to keep it around and there's only so much they can do because the technology isn't there at the same time, I do really feel the loss of what little momentum it had. And so that's a thing I struggle with.

But I'm going to give it a three because my expectations for it are so low because it is not a mainstream product. And they did have little glimmers of maybe reasons why people might want to buy it in the future, like the NBA announcement. This episode is brought to you by Insta 360. You may know Insta 360 for their action and 360 cameras, while they've taken all of their imaging expertise and brought it to the webcam world with their newest conferencing products, the Insta 360 Wave and the Link 2 Pro, which is their flagship 4K AI webcam. The Link 2 Pro has a large 1 over 1.3 inch sensor with dual native ISO and HDR, which basically means you get crisp, detailed 4K video when you're in a dim home office or sitting in front of a bright

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Everyone keeps commenting on it that I do a regular meeting. It's like, oh, your camera looks so good. It's like, yes, because I'm using a good camera now, not just what's built into my display. Whenever I used to join calls with Stephen, with Stephen Hackett, Relay co-founder, Stephen Hackett, and I would have my AirPods in. He'd be like, oh, you sound so terrible. Why are you doing this? Go sit with your good microphone.

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and productivity all at once, check out the Insta360 Wave and Link 2Pro at Insta360.com. That's INSTA360.com or just click the link in the show notes. So thanks to Insta 360 for their support of this show and all of Relay. Let's move on to the home category now. So the panel rated this a 2.6 out of five down from a 2.7, saying that the home strategy appears to have installed.

The app is still not great. And questions on whether new home hardware is being held back by AI. I gave this one a one out of five because I just don't know where else to grade this. I just think

that this is a category that Apple was not doing a lot in and not really pushing forward in the ways that I would want. And then we had glimmers of hope and then just none of those products have happened. And it feels like,

you know, maybe I'm too close to the rumors here, but like it feels like the product that I want exists, but they made some bad choices. and can't ship it. And I find that very frustrating. Yeah, I mean, I think I, I mean, the question is, again, is it status?

Because I find HomeKit to be stable for the most part in my life. Sure. But it's so uninspiring. So, you know, it's a one or a two for me somewhere in there. It's like, yes, it's like the Home Kit and the Home app is they work fine. Right, but there's still things about them that are just like bafflingly. Yeah, I agree. Simple where you could do so much more.

Yeah, I think what I'm struggling with here is, I said before about there's the status check version of this and there's the what did you do in the year. Yeah. And I think what I struggle with in part is that if I think the status is high, I'm less concerned about what they did during the year. But if the status is low and they didn't do something during the year, it goes together. So I will give this a one. because nothing happened and it's not good enough. And if we take into account the fact that there seemed to be reasons why nothing happened, right, that they put their products that are ready to ship,

but they can't ship them because of Siri and all this stuff. Well, so be it. In the end, they didn't ship anything. There's kind of nothing. They have abandoned this category. This category, it was clear to many of us that Apple should have been embracing some smart home products like a decade ago. And they just didn't bother. And then only in the last few years when wearables home and accessories as a category has stalled out revenue-wise, do they seem to have started to pay attention to this?

And like, it's a little bit late. And the problem is they still haven't done anything. Even though there are lots of reports that they're paying attention, they still haven't really done anything. And so it's hard for me to get enthusiastic about Apple and the home. I am optimistic that there's a bunch of stuff and that 2026 will be Apple re-engaging with the home. But I thought that would happen last year. And it didn't. So we'll see what happens.

say this year. But yeah, we'll say one. The Apple TV, the panel gave this a 2.8 down from a 3.2. So that's quite a drop. People questioning, is the Apple TV still the best option for a device of this category? I know that you will say, yes. I remember. I tried them. Well, Google TV is pretty good. And if you're in the Google ecosystem and have YouTube TV and a bunch of stuff like that, you could get a Google TV and be happy. Although I think, Google is not going to invest in Google TV anymore either. So I don't really know what's going on with that. But Google TV is pretty good. And Apple TV is better, but not that much better and worse in some ways. And all the rest of them are atrocious and awful. That's the thing about Apple TV, right? Yeah.

No new hardware for the Apple TV OS gets minimal updates. And there is an overall concern that the TV app spends too much time promoting Apple TV content. Of course. I gave this a two as well. I'd say, well, I gave us a two hours. 5. This is just another product that feels stagnant. I do feel like, from a hardware perspective, I'm not sure that I need or want them to do anything to the current Apple TV. I think it is fine, but I would like them to do something more advanced. You know, like we've spoken about like a

soundbar or putting a camera in it or something. And then I would like them, you know, I, there are so many things that they could do to TVOS to make TVOS better and they don't do them for whatever reason that they don't do them. Yeah. I'm going to give it a two as well. I don't need new Apple TV hardware. I imagine they'll update it mostly just to put a chip in it that they're still making and that they'll just keep it going. It does 4K. It does basically all the things you needed to do. The OS is so stagnant. And it's one of those cases

where again, I'm very frustrated because I get that Apple feels like they're kind of in an okay place with it, and they're complacent about, like, that, like I just said, I think it's probably the best option for people, even now, but it feels old, and

it feels like it comes from a different era of TV, and if you look at these other boxes, other than Roku, if you look at Amazon's box, if you look at Google's box, what you'll see is a more integrated hole where there's a main interface,

kind of like the TV app, but also like live. There's so much fast stuff free streaming. Apple does some live for sports, but like they have not embraced live as a concept. And every service you get has live channels in it. And you could integrate them all together and create like a grid of what's on right now,

which a lot of people like. And Apple seems to be just opposed to the eye. idea, which is bizarre. Like, this is where it's going. Whether you like it or not, this is where it's going. And Apple just, I don't know whether they don't get it or they're not empowered to do it. But like, Apple TV needs another rethink and they haven't done it. And it's so frustrating because while the platform is pretty good versus the competition, it, it's so desperately needs to be rethought. Yeah. So I'm frustrated about that. You talk about should they a soundbar, they should absolutely do a sound bar, but I'm sure it's back behind all the other

home products that they can't ship. They don't need to make an Apple TV with a camera in it. They need to make a continuity camera. Just a standalone continuity camera. I know, you know, those who listen to the sponsored version, we'll hear that we have a sponsor just now about webcams and things like that. Like, Apple should find a partner or Apple should make a continuity camera that you can put on a TV or anywhere and your Apple TV and other devices can just pick it up and use it. And it could connect wirelessly because they're good at that. Exactly, because that's how continuity camera works. But to say, well, we built this whole continuity camera feature, but you've got to, I just did this last night. Oh, we got to Zoom with Lauren's

family. Okay, I'll get out the tripod and put my iPhone in it and tap the thing on the back while it's sideways that says I want to use it as a continuity camera. It's like, it's, it looks great. It's an amazing feature. I just want to put one of those on top of my TV and let it sit there, right? or put it in a stand on a desk, you know, like our sponsor's product or whatever. Like, why does that, again, when we talk about home stuff, it's like Apple TV doesn't need to do that. It already has the software. Make an accessory or find a partner who will partner with you to make an accessory that does this. And instead, it just sits there.

But I do think, like you mentioned, the soundbar, soundbars are so popular right now. And the idea that Apple could just sell a soundbar and it would cost a fortune, but it would have Apple TV built into it. and it would have great audio and it would be like a home pod under your TV. They're going to make money on that product. Like,

again, I just don't know what is happening. So anyway, yeah, I'll say two, um, just because what they've got,

I mean, two is exactly the right score for this because their ambition is, is, is, their current status is two and their ambition is one. And so they get to ride by with this two, but like,

it needs to be better. It all needs to be better. There is like a weird, like, the TV app and the the TV and VisionOS and Vision Pro sorry I'll get this right in a second the Apple TV and the Apple Vision Pro

they're somewhat similar to me in a way where a lot of things that would make TVOS feel better to use exist in the system but nobody uses them like one of the key ones for me is that you can link your profile

in apps with the profiles system in Apple TV. So, for example, if you just have, you know, you have a kid and you just want when the kid is watching Apple TV, that they only see kids' profiles in, say, Disney Plus, YouTube, wherever. This API tool set exists, but that no one cares to do anything with it, and Apple seems to not be able to convince any companies to adopt the technology. And this is one of those things where I would say, I know people are going to say, well, that's the fault of the developers. But ultimately, you've got one of the world's most rich and powerful companies. Apple could spend some time and effort and money and make it happen, but they'd choose not to.

The Apple TV shows Apple's, and we're going to get to developer relations later on, but it shows most clearly the developer relations problem. Because the only apps that people care about on their Apple TV are services owned by. other massive companies that Apple cannot strong arm. Yeah, no, they, and they need to work with them better, right? They need to work with them all better. I will say, I've written about this before,

we'll probably talk about it again. When I say Apple TV needs a rethink, I really mean it. Like, I, they did that whole future of TV as apps. It was a huge mistake. There shouldn't be an app screen. Get rid of the app store. Let's get rid of the app store.

Well, no, I mean, The App Store as a concept is fine because you want to add, well, everything's got an App Store because you have to find the service and add it, right? Like, that's fine. The app screen that looks like your iPhone, and I use it as the default, but like, no, the TV app should be the default. The TV app should be where everybody goes forever. There shouldn't be an app screen. There should be an app list that's customizable in the TV app. And that should be it.

And other streaming boxes do this, and it's fine. It's just fine. and it would be less confusing and you would actually kind of have more control because it's all in one place. They need to just go down the list and be like, completely rethink so much of what they're doing. Look at what Google and Amazon are doing.

Amazon's got the best interface of all of them. Amazon actually has the best streamer box except for the fact that literally everywhere you turn, Amazon is selling you something and marketing things to you. And it's unbearable. I can't bear it. functionality-wise, they're the best. They, they are, it's so good.

But, um, but so bad that I, I couldn't even continue using it for a minute more than necessary because it was so awful. Because that's Amazon. They, they want to degrade your experience with their marketing and that's just what you get when you get Amazon. But, uh, Apple could do something like that and it would be legitimately good. And I, I would love Apple TV to be legitimately good and not the best of a bad lot, but that's where we are right now.

I use it. Literally my entire interface for TV is Apple TV. I don't have another box. I only use Apple TV. And it's fine, but it could be so much better. So I'm not mad Apple TV. I'm just disappointed. Services.

The panel gave this a 3.6 up from a 3.5. With good shows and movies on Apple TV, other services remaining solid. However, there is too much marketing of Apple's services in their operating systems. And most of the things they make, are good but not the best in class. Yeah. Apple needs to definitely have a best practices about

self-promotion. I'm okay with some limited. I get it. We're all tied in. So we see this marketing and we're like, I know, I know already. People don't know. Lots of people don't know. Where it becomes a dark pattern is the problem. The fact that you can't say I don't want to see that again. You can't

customize something and say like, I don't want to see F1 stuff again. you can't say never show me the please follow f1 again right like you need to give users power to say I'm done and um and and probably to say never ever get in my way again in a setting somewhere um I understand the need to market your services I don't have a problem with it users need to have the power to say no and it feels to me like there there are moments where Apple starts to feel like Amazon in terms of, you know, this, thank you for buying our Apple TV and using our TV app,

but we really want you to see our ad for our Peacock bundle and for F1. And like, okay, I've seen the ad for the Peacock bundle like 20 times. At some point, I need to say, don't show that to me anymore. Just stop showing it to me. I gave services five. Apple TV Plus. Apple TV Plus, for me props up this entire category because Apple TV is like a 10 out of five and so everything else that's bad it just pulls it up like I use and I'm happy enough

with Apple's other services you know I'm an Apple one premium premium premiere whatever it's called the top level so I just get everything right and you know I like Apple Arcade because every year I'll get a couple of games out of it I'm Apple Music works totally fine

for what I need for a music service I get to read some stories on Apple News, so I don't need to pay for every single possible service that I would want. And the list goes on, right? So like, but for me, Apple TV is incredible. The level of content that they are producing is outstanding and it is astounding. They, the majority of my favorite TV shows last year came from Apple. So far this year, it's the same thing all over again. And, you know, I also look at this as a, as an industry.

Watcher, they had a hit with F1, like an absolute hit, a hit that broke records kind of hit for like in its category, you know, like Brad Pitt's biggest box office opening of all time. I think like the, it was the, I think the highest gross in live action movie of last year, like just like wild stuff that they were doing. And it's a good movie that I really enjoyed. So I think for me, from the personal level and also looking at it from the professional level, I think that they absolutely crushed it

and so I give them a five out of five. Yeah, I think I'm going to say five as well because I think that Apple Services business is doing so well and that the content is good. Even news, which I, News Plus, which I complain about, but like,

I find a bunch of stuff there that's paywalled elsewhere and I get to read it. And like, I don't go there. It's not a daily visit for me. But like, then I'll get a link to a story on some site and I'll go,

oh, in Apple News Plus, and I go over there and it's there, and I get to read it. I like that. Apple TV is great. They are doing such a great job with that service. There's so much good content in it. Yeah, I remember when Apple services weren't very good. I like, they're really good now. They do a good job. My biggest complaint is what I said at the beginning, which is I think Apple needs to find a way to balance overmarketing their services to the point where it degrades the user experience. And I, I, A good example of that is their new subscription for the creator studio where they put, they turn free I work apps into premium apps, premium apps, and put upsells in your apps. And like, I understand you're going to like this is my, this is my guideline. I'm not an absolutist here. I understand you need to communicate that there are things on offer. there is a limit to that communication

and putting UI elements in apps that don't go away is too far too far I mean I think I think the whole thing was a travesty putting those I work apps in that was a mistake and they should feel bad but also it just shows they somebody needs to be the

the marketing police right like what it feels like to me is somebody who used to deal with this and fight these battles every day at my corporate media job is there's nobody defending the user and saying no. And there needs to be. Somebody needs to be on the other side

of the let's put marketing everywhere and actually say... Or that person is being overruled constantly by the need to push services revenue. That's true. Either that or they don't, they are not given a voice that is listened to. And it's a mistake. And it goes down to user interface.

Like, you got to let the user decide. And you know, yes, you need to make them aware. of what you're offering them, but you also need to step back when they say enough. And they don't do that enough. I just want to give a correction for myself, if one was not the highest grossing live action movie, but it was the ninth highest growth in movie of the year, which nobody was expecting. And a best picture nominee, which nobody was expected. No one could have imagined.

What was your score for services? I'd say five. Okay. Because again, I think you agree with me, right? That is a lot of problems. but their output is just is unbelievable. Yeah, it's so much better than one could expect.

Is there room for improvement? I mean, of course there is, but I think they're running at an incredibly high level right now. They are making quality, they are making content of the quality level that HBO produces. Like, they're doing it consistently.

And it's unbelievable. I mean, I could say four and a half, you know, but I'll go with you and say five. If I give it some thought, I'd probably take it down to a four. just because I do have these other concerns and some of the services aren't as good but like it's a

I have a positive it's a thumbs up for me regardless. We'll say four. I'll put it at four my unofficial tally. Thank you. Hardware reliability was at a 4.5 down from a 4.6. This one was interesting to me because there were no significant issues. I don't know why it went down. Why has it gone down?

But it just has. You know, different mix of people people having a bad day, people being grumpy. For the last six years, it's been four or four, six. It is at a high level. This is a grade A. This is like a little kid saying, saying, why did I get a 95 on my paper instead of a hundred?

Like, don't complain. Shut up, kid. Now, here's my thing. I voted this a five. However, I think I would like to, if again, I would like to change my vote, maybe to a four. So I don't use,

I use no case on my iPhone. I obliterated an iPhone last year by dropping it. Because it was like, okay, I dropped it on the concrete. That's my own fault. I noticed a couple of days ago, the bottom rail of my iPhone 17 pro is bent. And again, I must have dropped it again. All of this is to say, I think that aluminium is just softer. then steel and titanium.

And while I love and would not change the way that this phone looks, because I love the aluminium back, I love the colour, I think that I have gotten very used to the strength of the iPhone in the last number of years, and I think that that strength has been degraded by going back to aluminium. So from a reliability standpoint, it isn't as high for me. me, but I wouldn't change it, if that makes sense. But it's just something that I wanted to note, but my scores are five out of five

and something to do about it. That's fair. And look, I drop my phone often enough, but I'm not dropping this phone more. And the old phones used to be able to handle it much more than the current phones can. Okay. I'm going to give it a five. I think Apple's making the best hardware it's ever made. Yep.

And on all fronts. And as several people, people will get this last. when they read the survey. Multiple jokes about how the guy running hardware maybe should be the CEO of the company. Yeah, I took a screenshot and sent it to a group chat today that you're in because what I find funny about this scenario is I wonder if every single one of those people thought they were being unique in their joke because it's just the same joke three times. Hats off to you for laying it out that way. Yep, it had to be done. This episode is brought to you by the Pets Table.

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Apple Software is broken down into two subcategories. Operating system quality. The panel rated this as a 2.7 out of 5 down from 3.4. Liquid glass is the thing here. Tahoe got the hardest beating again. It did. Bugs and glitches, etc. and people demanding

slash wanting a year of refinement and usability fixes. I gave this a four out of five because again, fan of liquid glass while I would like refinement, that's fine. I struggled with something here about Apple Intelligence. Right.

Because they have obviously massively fumbled Apple intelligence. But I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. If they had shipped the Apple intelligence features, would my computing life be better or worse? Like, it's hard for me to... I wanted to include this in here,

but I didn't feel like it made sense to knock down my rating of the quality of the operating system, because the lack of Apple intelligence has not changed the quality of the operating system, when in fact the inclusion of Apple intelligence could have So it's a bit of a Schrodinger's AI here or something. I don't really know what's going on that.

There you go. Four out of five for me because I just don't have the same level of problem that the rest of the panel seems to have. Yeah, I'm going to say three here. Because good things this year, iPadOS 26 windowing, addressing a bunch of concerns there, productivity features in Tahoe.

That's very good. But I don't disagree with the idea that this design caused a lot of glitches, did some things that were unnecessary, and that Apple taking, and basically after a big redesign like this, they kind of need to take a year where they don't throw more things at users and developers and instead try to refine this stuff so that it's in a better place. I think that it's almost, it's not just the people demand it, but it's also like, the year after you do something this big, you should probably spend your focus on the next year on continued cleanup and refinement and driving it sort of where you think it's going to ultimately

go because it's not a ship it and forget it kind of process, right? It's very much the opposite. You need to ship it and then work hard to get it where you need it to be. So I'm going to put it down the middle because I think there was a bunch of good OS stuff this year. And then there were also some challenges that they needed to, that they need to address for sure. App quality is a 3.1 down from a 3.5. I also gave this a 4 because I didn't, I didn't really feel any different about it from an OS quality perspective.

I don't really feel like there's anything that's particularly different one way or another, for me at least. Yeah, this is like Apple's first-party apps that are available separately. I think Apple Sports got a lot better. Final Cut and Logics updates came mostly this year and not last year. And as well as the I-work issues, I'm going to have some feelings for next year's survey and podcast episode. But I think nothing jumped out at me here.

So I would probably say three or four. Well, it's maybe they fix it. it by the time the survey comes around. Maybe you want to be. Maybe. You never know. They have to chime. If you care about the survey, I work team you have the time. Developer relations. The panel rated this at a 2.3, which is low, but it's down from a 2.4 in the year before. Let me tell the story here about this is one of those areas where looking at the history of the survey really helps. When I did the survey in 2015, one of the reasons there is a developer relations category is that the relationship between Apple and developers was at a low. It was

arbitrary, it was the era of arbitrary app store rejections and and also an era where people were really upset about the 30% and you'd say, well, isn't that true now? It's like, well, yeah, but what happened is in 2016, Phil Schiller was put in charge of the app store and they started to announce changes like

the 15, you know, over the, over the next few years, they did the 15% for small developers instead of 30. And they changed the app store rejection process to have more places where you could appeal and tamped down a lot of the most egregious app store behavior in terms of rejections. Which gave hope, right? There was a hope that this was going to be the beginning of a of a turnaround, like a good trajectory. So the score went way up. It went from 2.2 in 2015 to 3.6 in 2017. What's happened since that those heady days of openness and reform is a long, slow slide to the point that now with 2024 and 2025, we are back down in the 2015 territory. And there are lots of reasons for it. I'd say a lot of

this is stuff that we already suspected, but now we know, which is Apple's behavior and attitude as revealed in various legal documents where Apple has to defend its practices and developers have taken notice that this is Apple testifying about how they view the App Store and how they view developers and it is not a positive

for building a relationship with developers, developers who felt like Apple was exploiting them and didn't care about them and just tried to harvest them and viewed all of their work is basically accruing to Apple and that, you know, they exist because Apple is so benevolent in granting them the ability to work on their platform and all of that. All of that has come out in legal transcripts and discovery and things like that.

So that's rough. Also, this summer, they had to put out a new design, right? This summer, they had to do huge amounts of work at the shifting sands of liquid glass, right? Because, you know, even if you decided, okay, I've got to do this, I've got to support liquid glass. it kept changing in the betas and a bunch of stuff didn't work right. So it's a mess. People praised parts of the APIs and the tools and stuff like that. But generally, I understand why this has gone down

because there's a feeling that they're from developers that they're not valued and that Apple was also creating a lot of work for them with a design, agree or disagree with the looks at the design, with a design that seemed to have not been as well implemented and thought out as it could have been, which increased the burden on developers. Yeah, I get this one a one out of five. I mean, for me, there is both a continued thing from the last couple of years, but it's been hit hard for me this year.

So essentially, the longer that we are continuing to see Apple make arguments in public and in courts with governments around the world over things like alternative app marketplaces, the clearer and clearer Apple's, I think, anti-developer stance shows. And for me, this year, one thing, so there was one thing that was medium and one thing it was really nailed at home. So the medium thing is the arbitrary 27% that Judge Yvonne Gonzalez-Rogers kind of hammered them over that they're still trying to work their way out of, right? They just created that amount of money as the cut that they needed

because they wanted to get back to 30. but for me the I don't remember I think it might have been in that case but the corporate culture that created you know like the the Slack screenshots that we saw

about creating the scare screens and the corporate culture that must have been created at Apple to the level that designers at Apple would be talking about these screens being more scary because executives would like it that way right like that to me is just like

shows that there is a rotten core inside of some parts of Apple which are pushing them to make things as bad as they can possibly be to make sure that you cannot leave the app store. Yep. I'm going to say two only because they also have put in

after some delays, they have put a lot of work into getting Xcode to actually do AI, and they seem to be up on that because they did a recent update, but they've been pushing that since last year in a way that they, I mean, they obviously had to, but they did. And they didn't do as much catching up as they seemed to have done early this year. But like I feel like they are doing some work on that side,

but it's not enough to counteract the rest of it. Yep. And then we learned at World Impact. Yep. but everyone's been waiting for. Panel, 2.1, down. That's an F from 3.1. This is the biggest year-over-year drop in the survey this year.

Cook's relationship with Trump and a betrayal of Apple's values is one of the things that people pointed out over and over again as an issue here. A believed, yeah, I will say believe de-prioritization of environmental initiatives, removing of the Ice Block app from the App Store while some acknowledged the difficult position that Apple would be in and Tim Cook would be in, they still want them to take a stand. This is one for me where the scoring was very tough.

I went for two out of five because I am disappointed of everything that everyone else is. But if I'm looking at Apple's overall impact on the world, I think that they're, you know, I don't feel like we're seeing a change in their environmental stance. I don't, I have not perceived that. And then things like the work they're doing accessibility, like these are things that I still appreciate that they continue to push on. And for their effect on the overall world, I think I can't give them a one, but I give them a two. Yeah, I think I'm at a two as well. And in part that's because I think some

of the things that are perceived to have been abandoned by Apple haven't been abandoned by Apple. They have been hidden by Apple. Apple realizes they're an environment where if they talk about their carbon, you know, zero 20, 30 pledge, they're just going to get yelled at by people in power. If they talk about their commitment to diversity, they're going to get yelled at. So instead, what they do is they, they say, look at us. We've got this whole new university, program thing that we're doing in Detroit. And they don't talk about who's in Detroit. They talk about how it's industry. But that is also clearly trying to diversify the people who are involved in that aspect of engineering. But they're not going to talk about it. And you can fault them for that. But I think there's a lot of behavior that they're still trying to do.

But here's the thing about this category. For me, this category has always meant Apple likes to talk a big game about how it's trying to leave the world better than it found it. and championing various social and environmental policies and causes and posting things on its, you know, on its homepage and on its CEO's Twitter feed and things like that. And this category has always meant to be how is Apple, Apple brought this up. Apple didn't need to do this. Apple's the one who uses this for positive PR. Look at us.

We're special. We're different. We believe in stuff. How are they doing? And this year, again, we can argue about the tactical nature of what Tim Cook has chosen to do. But this year, Apple has decided they're not going to do or talk about that stuff because it might threaten the bottom line. As a profit-driven, publicly held company, I would argue that's not especially surprising, but it is certainly some cognitive dissonance with the way Apple has talked about itself in the past. And in that way, it is very hard to look at the behavior of Tim Cook over the last.

year and not said that he is walking away from this aspect of Apple's perceived personality. Yeah. And I guess I know he's got his reasons, but that's not the issue. Really. So yeah, I'll give it a, it's a two verging on a one for me. I, you know, I could go, I could get salty again and say it's a one. Um, but, but like I get why it's happening. But, but, but like, I get why it's happening. But, but, but, but, but, but, like, I get why it's happening. But, but, but, But to me, that's not the point. The point of this category is not why it's happening. The point is Apple said they were different and that they cared about a bunch of stuff that didn't go to the bottom line and that they were going to do their environmental stuff not because it was going to be great for the bottom line, but because it was the right thing to do. And this year, what Apple has done is stuff that was the wrong thing to do except for the bottom line. That was a choice that they made. Yeah.

It was a good point of like you brought this up, not us. Right. You wanted the benefit from this when you were comfortable anywhere in a time where it was beneficial for you to do it. And now it's not. So you don't get the benefit anymore. Yeah, you got to live it down now. Like you said we care about all this stuff. And then the government changed and they said, we hate people who care about that stuff.

How are you doing? And they're like, we love you. You're great. And that's it. I mean, they bring it upon themselves. I'm sure people would be disappointed with Tim Cook's behavior. wise, but the cultivated, I mean, and you know, we can argue about it because I don't think it was false. I think that Apple has corporate values. But at the end of the day, it's a profit-seeking

corporation that is not interested in taking a stand if it's going to hurt their profits. And so they didn't. So to kind of wrap up, I want to just look at some of the biggest, like just kind of like overall. So there were only three categories that were up year over year, and that was iPhone, iPad, and services, and there were very small gains. Everything else was down. The biggest losers were the Mac, Apple OS quality, and World Impact. So, interesting year. Very interesting. Interesting, yeah. And I do wonder, you know, I do wonder how much of an impact, the World Impact rating had on everything else. I think it made for bad vibes. Yeah.

And although we can laugh about it, I think the vibe in the room concept shows itself in things like this. I think everybody, not everybody, the people who voted very low in Apple's impact on the world, maybe Karen Healy will do an analysis of this. But my guess is that if you are voting one or two in this category, you are not predisposed to give Apple the benefit of the doubt in other categories. I want to finish out one ask upgrade question. We do two. I put a winner Olympics one in the table. Two ask upgrade questions today. Brian wrote in and says, I've watched the F1 movie and now I'm interested,

but I know nothing about F1. I've got the F1 app. I've checked out some subredits. Where else do I need to go to get up to speed? There is one answer for you, Brian, and it is Netflix's drive to survive. This is the way that many people get into the sport, including me.

I watched the first season and second season of Drive to Survive. So the first season, I think, was in 2019. Second season was in 2020. I watched both of them just before the 2020 season was supposed to start, but it got delayed for a little bit for obvious reasons. There are seven seasons of Drive to Survive. Now, I liked basically all of them, except for one, but it doesn't matter. I recommend you either start with the first one because it's great and you may just enjoy it.

But the best thing for you to do, if you have limited time, is to begin with the season that drops this Friday, which is everything that would have happened in the 2025 Formula One season, and it will set you up perfectly for when the new season begins. I would recommend you just watch season one, because it is the best, season of the show because that was a very exciting year that it was covering. Lots of strange things happened. But many of the people that are in that season are not even in the sport anymore. So like if you if you can only watch one season, you should watch the one of season eight, which comes out on Friday. It will set you up. But then you could maybe go back and watch other

stuff. It will give you more knowledge as well, kind of like historical knowledge of the show. But Drive to Survive, the team that produced that show for Netflix, they really know what they're doing. And also the 2025 season was very dramatic. So I think it's going to be a good season of Drive to Survive as well. So that would be my recommendation. If anyone is thinking like, oh, hey, look, I'm going to get F1 now because it's part of my Apple TV subscription. Go watch Drive to Survive on Netflix and you'll be ready to go. And Josh wrote in and says, do you have any thoughts on Olympic athletes using old wired iPhone ear

pods with the button on them. It's common to see freestyle skiers and snowball does click their music on before starting their run. It feels like an indictment against Apple that people are still using a technology that they launched in 2012 instead of using newer products. Well, I mean, first off, really, is wired earbuds with a clicker technology in 2012?

I know what this person is saying, but it actually goes way back beyond that. Beyond that. It is... So my thought, I mean, you said to me, some of it is fashion. It is fashion.

So it is very fashionable right now for people to use iPods and wired headphones and even wire headphones with their iPhone. It is a fashion thing that people are doing. It became trendy. You'll see lots of celebrities doing it. This is not just an Olympics thing.

There are, you know, you'll see celebrities, photographed all the time with this stuff and people are digging out old iPods and using them as their music players. Like this is, I don't think this is an Olympics thing as much as it is just a wider trend amongst younger

people. So I think also if you're a, if you're concerned about your look having a little tiny earbuds with the cable come down is maybe better than what, how AirPods look even now. I think AirPods have been normalized, but still they look a little unusual. The other thing I

thought here is I wonder if you're a skier or a snowboarder, if you've got a wired headphone and it pops out of your ear, it's not going to go into the snow and be lost forever. If you've got an AirPods and it falls out of your ear, you will never get it back. And I wonder if that's part of it too is just practically speaking, it's not worth having AirPods.

And also, if you're wearing a helmet, are you going to control the AirPods? Exactly. They're in the helmet. Great example. They're in there. Exactly. You want a physical clicker that with your gloves on or whatever, you can click to start your music. I love that they listen to music on their runs.

That's also hilarious. So yeah, there are lots of practical reasons. There are helmets that have speakers inside them, too. So in some cases, they may not actually have headphones in at all. You would remember like me. I think it was the Burton Smart Jacket that was like a big. big iPod accessory. It's Bert Namp.

Yeah, my, my brother-in-law, as a teen snowboarder, reviewed that for Macworld and got our copy desk to query when he said it was sick. Was that positive? And I had to say, yes, that is what the kids say. What you? What's that? Oh, my God. I don't, I don't know.

Oh, my God. You know, 2006, something like that. Wow. But they FedExed him the jacket and he wore it snowboarding and got a picture taken and wrote a little thing or told me a little thing about what he thought. about it and he's a middle-aged dad now it's been that long but back then he was just some punk kid snowboarder with the Burton amp jacket uh yeah so that's part of it too i have i mean i haven't skied in ages but i actually have a ski helmet that's got a mini jack in it and a little speaker

inside and a clicker and it's the same same deal you you you know you got your gloves on whatever the last thing you're going to be doing is it reaching under your helmet or or and you've got gloves so you've to take your glove off, like forget it. It does make sense. So, yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Good times.

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I would like to thank our sponsors of this week's episode. That is Delete Me, Claude, Insta 360, and The Pets Table. But most of all, as always, I would like to thank you for listening. Until next time, say goodbye, Jason Snell. Goodbye, my curling.