Upgrade - 612: 'That Leader is John Ternus'

Episode Date: April 20, 2026

From Relay, this is Upgrade, episode 612 for April 20 of 2026. Today's show is brought to you by Delete Me, Squarespace, Steam Clock, and Nerd Wallet. My name is Mike Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason Snow. It's 420, Mike. You think people in Cupertino are blazing it today? I think they might be. All right, so let's set some context.

It's 10 p.m. on Monday night. I am at home. This is the first home podcast recording. I've done because Tim Cook has just announced that he is stepping down as CEO of Apple. Yeah. So here's the thing. We recorded an entire episode of Upgrade that we will still play for you today. It's a really fun episode.

But there is no way we could let this moment happen without being here to talk about it. Exactly. We would have preferred it an hour earlier or 24 hours later. Yes, because then I... Well, yeah. either of those would have been great, but here we are. Jason, could you read from Tim's community letter that he posted to Apple.com? Yeah, so it's really interesting. Apple posted a community letter from Tim and two items,

which we'll get to that are in the newsroom. And Tim, there's some very nice personal stuff in the letter about how much he thinks this is the best job in the world and all those things. But to get to the core of it here, he says, today we announced I'm taking the next step in my journey at Apple. over the coming months I will be transitioning to a new role, leaving the CEO job behind in September and becoming Apple's executive chairman. A new person will be stepping into what I know in my heart is the best job in the world. That leader is John Ternus, a brilliant engineer and thinker who has spent the last 25 years, building the Apple products our users love so much, obsessed with every detail, focused on every possible way. We can make something better, bolder, more beautiful and more meaningful. He is the perfect person for the job.

John cares so much about who we are at Apple, what we do at Apple, who we reach at Apple, and he has the heart and character to lead with extraordinary integrity. I'm so proud to call him next, Apple's next CEO. The company will reach such incredible heights under his leadership, and you will feel his impact in every bit of delight in discovery that grows out of the products and services to come. I can't wait for you to get to know him like I do. This is not goodbye, but at this moment of transition, I wanted to take the opportunity to say, thank you. So before we talk about the details, what a beautiful way to interpret. introduce John Turner as a CEO. Like Tim understood the assignment, did the job. Yeah.

Absolutely did the job for him. He starts by saying how great the job is and how he appreciates hearing from people every day and his email and all of that. And then pivots to saying, I can't wait for you to get to know John like I do. Absolutely. Yeah, which is lovely. I mean, and this is exactly what we thought it was going to be. This is going back to the financial times. So I, I have here, I've been keeping some notes about this because I've been preparing for this. I guess a funny thing is a few months ago, we received some tips that something was going down and I thought it was going to be this, but it ended up being an all-hands meeting for something completely different. Right. So I started keeping some notes. And so on the who was right, the financial times was right. As soon as early 2026, Mark Goerman said he would be shocked if Cook left before mid-26. So I think in the who got this right in the end, financial times.

I also think that there is some other news today, which is that Johnny Sruji is stepping up to a new role called Chief Hardware Officer, which, you know, I'm sure that you would agree with me here. This feels like Mark German being completely correct about Sruji threatening to leave when this information was probably shared of executives. Yeah, there's so much for us to talk about here. Sruji, yes, I think that report that Sruji was like, is he leaving, is he staying? And we said so at the time. When you start having executives moving around, it makes everybody say, well, wait a second. You mean I'm going to report to the guy who I consider my peer or maybe I'm more important than him, John Turneris, instead of Tim? What does that mean?

And they like, they really want to keep Johnny Strugi. And I think at the time I even said, this is where you say, yeah, he's going to be the new CEO, but we'll give you a new title too. And we want to make sure you stay. And of course, what he said was, no, no, no, I love it here and I'm going to stay. But I think this is what was leading to that kind of report was this sort of thing. And if you, and so they made him, they made a new title for him, Chief Hardware Officer, which, you know, John Turnus was the SVP of hardware, right? So you can't have a Chief Hardware officer, a CHO if you've also got an SVP of hardware, but you don't anymore because he's going to be the CEO. and it gets him in the C-suite,

which was probably part of the deal. I think we even talked about it back then. Shows how much they care about him. And I'm not saying this is like, sure, give him some stuff, give him some candy to make him happy. No, this is show your actual legitimate appreciation for Johnny Sruji by moving him into the C-suite, giving him a title.

Because when Tim is leaving, if you're Johnny Sruji or somebody at that level, you might say, well, what does this mean for me? And is this a good fit? Or, you know, or should I go? go somewhere else if I'm not, if I'm not appropriately appreciated, which is not to say he necessarily wanted to be CEO. I don't think that's necessarily true, but he might have, but that he wanted to, like, what does this mean for me? If Tim is leaving, what does this mean for

me? And, you know, am I going to be comfortable in my role in this new world at Apple? And so that's, that's what happened with Johnny. I have some, there's, there's, shenanigans to talk about as well. I love them. Let's do it. Tim Cook's leaving a CEO is effective September 1st. So the Discord is pointing out that technically means both the Financial Times and Gohmann are correct, but I still think the Financial Times had this more correct than Mark in the end.

Financial Times said as early as, which gives them infinity of time after the beginning of the year, I think they were not as right as. they led people to believe because they suggested it was more imminent than it is. And I also think that Mark German obviously said it wasn't going to happen by mid-year and it did. So I think they were both a little bit right and a little bit wrong, which is I know the most unsatisfying thing, which is to say... But to back it up further, Mark has had this right the whole way along, who it was going to be and getting the Srujee thing, you know? This is a, you know... Mark, Mark German got this years ago and has known this was coming.

And in fact, it feels very much like an Apple product launch where it's a big deal, but also we knew all the details already. Both of those things are true. You know, also, I just want to touch on what you were saying about the chief hardware officer role for Suruji. I mean, I said this at the time and I stand by it now, and I hope this is the change. that Apple should have more C-suite roles than it does. Like, there should be a chief hardware officer. There should be a chief software officer and a chief design officer. I think that they should exist.

It doesn't make sense to me why you'd have people like Federi not in a C-suite position at this point. Like, I hope that they start to shuffle things around. And I expect it's going to become a little more awkward now because why Johnny? Why not everybody else? And like, I don't know what the conversations are there. And like, maybe this is a thing that will happen later.

And it, you know, it made sense to talk about Sruji today because obviously there is now a vacuum left by Ternus moving. And so, yeah, it's super interesting, like the way that they've chosen to do this. Before we dig into some of the board shenanigans, I did just want to mention, Jason, where were you when you found out that Tim Cook was stepping down as the CEO? I was sitting in Studio B in the back room in my house working on some other projects. for the afternoon, just taking a, you know, different change of pace, go to a different place,

work on some other stuff. And then I saw the, you know, the red alert from, it was actually full credit, must credit. Our editor, Jim Metzenorf, posting the Mark German tweet.

Oh, really? Yes. Is that where, oh, wow. It was almost as if Jim was like, do I need to re-edit upgrade today? And the answer is, yes, hi, Jim.

Yes, you do. What about? you? So, Safia's a little bit under the weather and she was struggling to go to sleep.

So, you know, it's like 9.30 and I'm just finally getting her down. And so I took my phone out on my pocket to mark that she'd finally fall in sleep. And I had lots and lots and lots of text messages.

And then I freaked out. Yeah. Because it's like, what am I going to do? So yeah, I'm in our home, like, Deanna's home office

recording right now. And I'm maybe a little quieter than normal because there is a sleeping baby. So I apologize. for that. But there was no way we weren't going to do this. Babies know their their parents' voices and they they don't mind, I think. Um, I hope so. And my, my experience was that like at a, at a sporting event, the opposite is also true of a sporting event. Like the whole crowd

would scream and nobody would care and then I would scream and my kids would be like, what, what, what? And it's like, because they would tune in to me. But you're at home. And anyway, so, uh, so yeah, uh, so yeah, the, um, I do want to credit Mark German. I think he got, he got the gist of this right way in advance, which means it is like an Apple product launch, where it's a big deal, but also we already knew, which I'm sure they hate it.

In fact, there is a line in the press release that says, this transition, which was approved unanimously by the board of directors, follows a thoughtful long-term succession planning process, which pat yourself on the back on that, sure, but also, yes, we know it was long-term because we've known about your process.

thanks to the Mark German leaks especially for quite a while now. But the board has to be involved. This is a, the board hires the CEO. So this is obviously Cook and the board have been working on this for a long time,

probably about as long as we've known about it. And it's effective September 1st. What Tim Cook is doing is becoming executive chairman, which is, I believe, not a current job. I believe there is a non-executive chairman, which is Arthur Levinson, who was the guy who is aging out of the board and they change the rules to say, no, no, it's important. He can stay, which they can do because it's just board rules. So Arthur Levinson is going to become lead independent director, so not working at Apple. And he's going to take that role on. John Turnus is going to join the board of directors as CEO. And Tim becomes executive chairman, which is a different, interesting.

job that we all suspected. I think this wasn't reported as much as just everybody kind of figured that might be a thing that he would do. And there is a key phrase in the press release about Tim Cook's role that fits with our expectation for what was going to happen. And I'll read it to you now. As executive chairman, Cook will assist with certain aspects of the company, including engaging with policymakers around the world.

There you go. I mean, so I was going to ask why now? I mean, it's not a question we can answer. Maybe this was just the time. My guess is that they pegged it 10 days before their quarterly earnings so that they can get this out there before they go quiet and let everything settle before they talk to the financial press next week. I meant more in the broader context. Oh, okay. Like why, why April 2026?

Like, do you have any, I mean, I know there's no way of knowing. The fact that Tim is setting up another role would suggest that he's very fit and healthy to do so. I think that, I think they had a plan for 26. I think this is what the financial times got right, which is they had a transition plan for 2026. I think we, our speculation that it would come after they had their blockbuster quarter, it's actually, you know, it is further after that, but before their next quarter, we know, like, John Turnus introducing the MacBook Neo at the event in New York was part of this transition plan. And we thought so at the time, but it's very clear now that that was what was going on.

It's like, let's get John out there high profile in advance of this. And I would imagine that they had a plan, you know, of like, we're going to announce it here. And then there's going to be this. And then Tim is going to go and transition later. And they're going to spread it out a little and give everybody on Wall Street plenty of warning and time to communicate it. And perhaps even John Turnus will join the call on, you know, next week. And this is all about that. I mean, he absolutely will.

Right. And then you get WWDC. right, where they'll probably do some stuff together. And then I would expect the iPhone. That's a Ternus production. Yeah, because it'll, Tim will be out of there. He'll be in the boardroom. There's something to say about timing.

If you're like, well, if this year is going to be a really interesting iPhone year with the folding iPhone, maybe that feels like a good time to kind of have that transition. And then before next year with the 20th anniversary iPhone, which is what Mark and is rumoured, has rumoured will occur. If they really do feel confident about their product roadmap, this is a very good time to have this happen, right? Like if they feel like the next few years, from a pure product perspective,

will be financially good, do it now. Like, if you think you have a very good pipeline, which they keep talking about, if you do it now, you mitigate any unsettled feelings that might occur over the next couple of, couple of years because as with any transition. Yeah. There's going to be change. Change is weird. And they, I mean, I keep coming back to this,

which is Tim Cook didn't get to have a smooth CEO transition. He did a bunch of acting while Steve Jobs was sick. And then when Steve did the executive chairman transition, he was dying and too ill. And then he died. And Tim didn't, I am 100% guaranteeing you that Tim Cook's goal. in all of this is to give John Ternis every opportunity that Tim Cook didn't get because of what happened with Steve.

And that's what's going on here is give him the runway, give him the time and the product pipeline and presumably multiple years of prep before this announcement even came out and be around

as executive chairman after the fact, take some of the ugly stuff, stuff like the political stuff off of his plate so that he doesn't have to deal with that right out of the gate and he focus on the stuff that is is not going to attract that kind of attention. I, that was the plan all along and I do think that that comes not just from the board, although I'm sure it does, but from Tim Cook wanting it to be like this is how you do it. In some ways, maybe a last act by Tim Cook is I want to do a good transition. I mean,

obviously Steve Jobs, it was out of everybody's hands, right? That is one of those things that nobody had the control. It just is how it happens sometimes. But Tim was like, I don't have to have that happen this time. Let's do this the right way. And that's what they're executing right now. And I guess this actually reflects on Apple as a company now that like, you know, I pulled some stats on this a while ago of just preparing for this kind of thing to happen.

And something that I know is the company's revenue doubled from 2011 to 2020. So kind of, you know, from Cook taking over to 2020, that's how much bigger Apple became as a company during that time period. If you're this big, you can't mess this up. Like you have to have this done properly with time and you want to settle everything. because Apple's too big to just kind of like bounce around into a succession plan and it just happen, right? Like you say, like this has to be considered, thought out, well executed down to every last minute detail because they are too important now.

They're too big. You can't just like, and look, anything can happen, right? As we've said before, Tim Cook could have been hit by a bus six months ago, but they would have had a plan for that. Sure. Now you've got everything settled in the exact way that you want. You do it properly. And it's like this, right?

Like set it up so that Tim can manage all of the current government leaders. He has to manage for a few more years. And then maybe people start to turn over and then Turner starts to take those relationships because they're new relationships. There is, you know, you don't just be like, all right, good luck, everybody. Yeah, but it's like, Tim Apple. Tim Apple's still there. And in fact, I think that'll be the message is. don't worry, just call me.

I'm Tim Apple. I'm in your contacts as Tim Apple. Just call Tim Apple if you need stuff. It's the way it should be. Like these things are relationship based. Exactly. It would be wild to do it any other way, no matter who the president is. And let the new CEO have some time to work on the other aspects of the job.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Going back to Johnny Sruji for a minute. Yeah. I just, so he, Apple bought his company and it was the foundation for what everything Apple has done in their, in their chip design. And basically we would say now he's the father of Apple Silicon, basically. Yeah. I, at the time when there was that rumor of like, is he shaky? Is he going? What's going on? Like, it became clear if it was not crystal clear before how important Johnny Strugi is to Apple. because their chip strategy is such a huge part of their hardware advantage.

And they've spread it out. So now it's everything they make is Apple Silicon, right? It used to be like, well, the iPhone, which is the most important product they make. But now it's everything. So we'll see what happens here. But this, to me, looks really like Apple's priorities are in the right place. They know they need to keep Johnny Suruji. They want to keep him happy.

they want to give him whatever he wants essentially so that he stays because he's a huge asset for them and they don't want him walking out the door. I also have to wonder if another one of these things that we didn't quite see, but we could guess about

is, this is my theory, but I'm just going to throw it out there again, did Alan Die leave because they were not going to rush to protect him like they did Johnny Sruji? Not directly, not like, oh, you're treating Johnny this way, but more like

this obviously shook every aspect of the senior leadership at Apple, the idea that Tim was leaving. And my theory when Alan Dye left was not that he wasn't liked, because all the reports say he was liked, but maybe he wasn't liked quite as much as he wished he was. Whereas Johnny Sruji clearly was, like, we got to keep this guy. I said it at the time, and I still think

it's, I think even more so it's the case now. I think Dye asked to be chief design officer and I think he was told no. And I think that was like, well, fine. And then he's out the door. Yeah. And because I expect as you're right, like everybody started to get told about

at the same time because those stories, the Allen Dye story and the Johnny Shrugi story, I think they're in the same week. So that would suggest that there were a lot of these conversations happening at the same time. There was this whole thing going on toward the end of the year, right? So, John Turnus, haven't talked a lot about him.

I've talked to him a couple of times. Yep. So that's great. I get to play it now, like, that John Turneris at least could see my face and come up with a name. So that's awesome, because Tim Cook doesn't know who I am. But John Turner does. So that's great. Hi, John.

I have a selfie with each of them taken in the same year, I think. Very nice, very nice. Not bad. So, there's a cook, Cook said, John Turner's the mind of an engineer, the soul of an innovator, and the heart to lead with integrity and with honor. He's a visionary. His contributions to Apple over 25 years

are already too numerous to count. And he is without question the right person to lead Apple into the future. I could not be more confident in his abilities and his character. And I look forward to working closely with him on this transition and in my new role as executive chairman. Now, here's John Turnus in the same process. press release saying I'm profoundly grateful for this opportunity to carry his mission forward. Having spent almost my entire career at Apple, I have been lucky to have worked under Steve Jobs.

Get that imprint in there. And to have had Tim Cook as my mentor, it has been a privilege to help shape the products and experiences that have changed so much of how we interact with the world and with one another. I am filled with optimism about what we can achieve in the years to come. And I'm so happy to know that the most talented people on Earth are here at Apple, determined to be part of something bigger than any one of us. I am humbled to step in this role. And I promise to lead with the values and vision that have come to define this special place for half a century.

And as Apple PR points out, Ternus joined Apple's product design team in 2001, became VP of hardware engineering in 2013. He joined the executive team in 2021 as SVP of hardware engineering and has overseen hardware engineering work on a variety of products at Apple across every category, including iPad and AirPods and many generations of iPhone, Mac, and Apple Watch. So basically, here are his credentials, but I think most importantly, for those of us who watch Apple, first off, you don't get a new CEO at Apple who hasn't been not just on the exec team for five years, but a VP for 13 years and an employee for 25 years. This is how Apple works. It's why it had to be him. Because there are not that many people who have risen. He's risen to this point because of who he is. And you don't bring in somebody from the outside.

No, absolutely not. I mean, the history of them doing that with other positions has not gone very well, right? Like, historically, even in Tim Cook's tenure, the people that he brought in from outside to fill executive positions, I don't know if any of them remained or at least lasted for very long. I don't know. Not so much. Not so much. To be, I mean, to be John Turnus in this moment must be a very surreal experience. Got to be, right?

What a mantle to be taking, right? Yeah. It's a mantle that has been held by many people, but only remembered for a few. Yeah, Mike Scott, nobody remembers. John Scully. No. Michael Spindler, Gil Amelio. Steve Jobs, Tim Cook, John Turnus.

Yeah. I think that's it. In September. Not yet. Yeah. He's, you know, don't put new curtains in the office yet. Tim's still in there. So what else?

I noticed something in the press release that I thought was interesting because it's Apple PR, Apple Newsroom, Apple Marketing, trying to place Tim Cook in context. And I think that says something. And this is the part that I wanted to quote. Apple services has been a major focus area of Cook's. And during his tenure, the category has grown to become a more than $100 billion business, the equivalent of a Fortune 40 company. Cook was also instrumental in creating the wearables category at Apple, which now includes the world's most popular watch and headphones,

and which has served as the foundation for Apple's remarkable impact on the health and safety of users. Under Cook's leadership, Apple also transitioned to Apple design silicon, enabling the company to own more of its primary technology and deliver industry leading gains in power efficiency and performance. So you can see it's sort of like this is their version of the quick bio of Tim, which is services, growth, wearables, and really when you think about it, health and safety in especially the wearables category. This is the, you know, your Apple Watcher iPhone saved your life kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. And then Apple Silicon and saying he was, you know, he helped enable that with Johnny Srujury, obviously. I mean, not a real surprise, but it is interesting to see, this is the rare opportunity where Apple is putting Tim Cook's era in its own context, which is a weird thing to think

about. But like, up till now, there was no reason to put Tim in context. But now we need to put Tim in context. And this is how they've chosen to do it, which is. Yeah. We could all write that paragraph and it would be very similar in terms of what his things are that we would focus on as being kind of legacy of Tim Cook's era. Yeah, I mean, it's a good summary, but I actually don't think it's completely fair. Like, I think that it's odd to me that they do not talk about continued stewardship and development of their key platforms. The iPhone's not in here.

But it's not like just because he didn't create, he wasn't the CEO and they created the first one. that that means he doesn't get credit for all of the ones that came after. Yeah. And he's got, I mean, there's a, there's a first paragraph there that talks about new categories and products and services and expanding existing product lines. And it mentions Vision Pro and it mentions Apple Pay and all of that. And I mean, they tried to be comprehensive. I just thought it was really interesting that they specifically called out services here because

that absolutely, I mean, for those who don't remember, this has been going on a while, There was a moment in the mid to late 2010s when they basically said, we're going to grow services a lot really soon. Watch us grow it. It's going to double in the next three years or whatever. And it doubled in less than that. And it's continued to grow since then. And that was very clearly a major initiative under Cook.

And we can debate the good or bad of it, right? Like I would argue that Apple's services focus has overheated to the point where it's harming some of the product quality, right? I think it's... Sure. I think I would definitely say that. I think that maybe they've gotten the mixture wrong there. Not that it isn't wrong to generate more money out of all your iPhone customers,

but that maybe they make some decisions that I wish that there was more thought put into what that meant for the user experience. But there's no denying, like, that was a huge aspect to the expansion here. There's also no denying. A thing that we are going to talk about again later in the... episode in the stuff we already recorded, that part of this is also like the iPhone 6 coming out. And with a larger phones and more options, that was a rocket ship of iPhone growth. And like just the growth that started with the iPhone 6 in 2014 completely transformed

what Apple was going to be just because of the money, the size, the scope. It completely changed the company in a very short amount of time in some ways because the iPhone, which had been doing really well, suddenly was just out of control growth. It just enormous growth. And that changed everything about Apple and how it operated and how it saw itself and the whole thing. Yeah. It's like, you know, as you say, they talk about instrumental and expanding existing product lines, et cetera, et cetera. I do feel like I've just finished reading Apple in China at the exact correct time for me right now. If I wasn't going to have read it read it immediately, because I think the thing that cannot be denied is Apple is only able to be

as big as it is because Tim Cook's operational skill and the way that he's crafted this company to be this operational powerhouse enables them to sell the amount of products that they do, because without someone who of his skill, who was able to put the right people in the right places, they just wouldn't be able to sell all the products. It needed someone who was able to manage the operations, manage the political climate, manage working with China to get to the point that they could be as big as they are. Like services, sure, but most likely his actual long lasting legacy was the operations apparatus that Cook put in place at Apple. Oh yeah. I mean, yeah, it was, it was, Tim Cook's legacy goes back to when he was, COO. It goes back to all of the manufacturing stuff in China and how so much of what Apple's been

able to do has been enabled by their ability to build systems to build what they want instead of using. That's the great, I mean, that's the great thing that I learned from Apple in China is I knew it like to a certain degree, but I didn't realize it was so much that literally Apple would say we want to build this thing. And any other company that said that, they would be told you can't. That's not how it works. Apple would just say, we're going to do this. They're like, okay, I guess we're going to figure out a way to manufacture what Apple wants. And then everybody else in the world gets to use that technique to build their own smartphones or whatever. And that, that is, that is Tim Cook stuff. Like, that is all Tim Cook stuff. So that is a huge legacy

of Tim Cook is just Apple. Also, I remember when Apple, I mean, Apple used to have swollen inventory. they would have thousands of computers that were in the channel that they couldn't get rid of and that if they come out with a new model, they would have to write those off because nobody was ever going to buy them. And like Tim Cook,

the impression I get is that Tim Cook was one of those people who came in and was like, uh-uh, we're not going to do it this way. We're going to be ruthlessly efficient in ways that has benefited Apple. You know, there's a complex legacy there because they were also enabling

Chinese manufacturing capability and you know, you could argue that in some cases they made Apple a lot more prone to danger because they were reducing the, the diversity of their supply chain and all these other things. It's complicated.

But like, also, there's no doubt about it that I get the sense that Apple's whole manufacturing thing was just really badly run and that Tim Cook was one of the leaders who got it into shape. It's like going into the very long term, yeah, maybe there are some decisions that were made that end up not being the right ones to have been made, right?

But in the intervening time from Cook to now, I mean, they're a company that's been able to grow to the scale and the size that they're at because they were able to produce and also innovate. It's not just can we make 100 million of these. can we make them to the quality level that we're making them? That has been incredibly important and has needed the investment and the setup and everything that they've had to develop in China and elsewhere now. Yeah. So to sum up, Tim Cook's going to end up being CEO of Apple for about 15 years because he started in August of 2011. So it'll be 15 years and a handful of days.

and, you know, he's got, he's going to be leaving Apple kind of, maybe kind of on top, honestly, after especially their all-time, you know, record quarter that they just had. And with the Mac sales, presumably going to be interesting with MacBook Neo. And John Ternis, you know, knows, they know what's in the pipeline. So he knows what he's going to be introducing. And like, yeah, we will have plenty of time to consider John Ternis. to consider the legacy of Tim Cook. This is a first draft

because literally we just found out about it, which is why Mike is recording a podcast, very near his child. But we couldn't, again, if we had already dropped the episode, what would we do? But we didn't. So we had to put something in.

Yeah. So we'll have much more about this. Next week, we will. Next week. And here's the deal, dear upgrade listeners. Not only did you get more than half an hour

of us talking about this, breaking news. right now. But now you got a couple hours of evergreen fun with your friends past Mike and Jason

talking about 50 selected randomly somewhat products from Apple's 50 years in the rest of this episode. And I think you will enjoy it. You don't have to listen to it right now. You can listen to it whenever

because it's not, unlike this part, it's not going to grow old. But we hope you enjoy as much as we did recording it in a more innocent time when Tim Cook was the CEO of Apple. We are finishing our Apple at 50 programming on this week's show with a big old draft. We are doing the Apple at 50 draft. We are going to be picking 25 items each amounting to 50 total picks, and we're picking a set of products made by Apple or Apple Computer, Inc.

These will be physical products only. We're not picking software. We are not picking components or entire product lines. This must be a specific model. These rules we came to an agreement on during Upgrade Plus last week. There will be no concepts. These must have actually been released products, so we will not. be picking the knowledge navigator here.

Or air power. Oh, I forgot about air power. Is air power a concept? I mean, I think they thought it was a thing. Yeah, but it was never actually released. Indeed. It doesn't count. We will be choosing these items based on our own defined criteria. There is not a defined criteria ranking like significance, importance, or favorite.

This is based on personal vibes. This is not a pre-agreed list like many of our other drafts, the picks that we will be making will be a surprise to each other. Jason and I have both amassed our own individual lists and we will be taking turns to pick them. In the show notes, don't do this until the end, but in the show notes, there is a poll where you as the Upgradians will get to decide who has the best list. Jason, I have a Snell talk question for you. Okay. What was your personal methodology for the list? I chose products I like.

Products you like? Okay. Yeah, with maybe one exception, but what I didn't do is like, I didn't choose like bad products or or dumb products. I chose some weird products, but the weird products tend to be products that are weird. I like them because they're weird. Yeah. I like them. But I didn't make this like an anti-draft or some eclectic. Like, good vibes.

I'm going for good vibes. What about you? What was your methodology? It is a combination of things that I think should be on this list, but mostly ranked with things that were important to me, right? So my list is of things I think should be on here. I have ranked them in such a way of personal importance, with some exceptions, and also some stuff that's for the fun that, like, I think should be included in a list, even if maybe they don't deserve it.

I might not get to those though, right? Because some of those are more towards the bottom. And so in Upgrade Plus today, we will most likely be dragging out some of the things that we didn't pick. I have 60 items on my list and I only get to pick 25. So that's going to be a problem. I have 44. Yeah. So that's going to be a – well, we'll see.

Also, I love the idea that you have ranked them because I have not. So I thought about not ranking. So I have an Apple note. My Apple note is at the top of this note. is a table and I broke it down into the product categories and then picked my favorites from the product categories, right? And that was how I was going to go into this episode and then it felt too complicated. So then I ranked them. The ranking's not going to stick though. Like in all of my draft. So whenever we draft, I rank them and then I start moving things around.

I just, if I didn't do some level of ranking, the reason I had to do it because I knew I was going to forget something if I didn't try and do some kind of. ranking and then I'll feel bad. By the way, in Upgrade Plus as well, we gave a Google form for Upgradians to send in their things that they didn't want us to forget. Did you choose literally any of the thing? I'll tell you right now, I didn't choose, I think, anything that was in that list. You know, I did. I was, I'll put it this way. I was reminded of products by that list. I think in one case I smiled because I already had it at least one.

I mean, there were several, but there was one that I thought was esoteric. And somebody mentioned it. And I was like, yes, they see me. They see that I've already got that. And then there was one where I thought, oh, that reminds me, I'm going to put a different product on my list, right? Which is pretty funny. That's good. I think that's what it did for me.

I think that list reminded me of entire product categories that I could consider. But there wasn't anything where I was like, oh, I should add that one thing to my list. But it was a helpful thing to have, and I'm happy that we did that. So, I think considering, so this is an exhibition game. The pennant is not on the line here. I think is what we decided. This is for fun. But because you are the reigning, defending draft champion, I think you should get first pick.

Oh, well, that's very kind of you. I didn't assume that. Well, in that case, with the first pick in the Apple of 50 draft, I have to do it. I thought about this a lot. I thought about like what does it mean and I'm going to go with what is absolutely the most important product

not the product that without which the app that Apple wouldn't have stayed in business right because you could you would have to dial that all the way back to the Apple too it's the original iPhone okay this was my number one when you were teeing that up I was wondering if you were going to say the Mac

no no in fact I have I have John Syracia should cover his ears because I have the Mac 128 as groundbreaking as it was, it was really not that good. And then they had to fix it later that year with a better version of it.

So I'm going to say right now, I'm not going to pick the Mac 128. There are better Macs to pick than that one, even though it was historically vitally important. But the original iPhone, it changed what Apple is completely. And it changed what the world is and how people in the world use technology

and live their lives. And, you know, it was only the first and it didn't sell as well as subsequent models because it was the beginning. I also think that it's got some remarkable characteristics, right? Like my Jeopardy anecdote was about picking it up and holding it for the first time, right? And when I was expected to have coherent thoughts and ask questions. And I couldn't because even though Retina didn't come until the iPhone 4, the iPhone screen was higher resolution than a Mac. And it's in your hand and your key. touching, you're putting your finger down

and things are reacting. Like, it was in that, I completely remember that moment. It was transformative. It was like, oh, oh, yeah. Okay. This is what this. Like, it was clear to me. Clear. And it's still a pretty cool design

for all of the limitations that they had to build into it. Because, you know, because of the limitations of building this thing, I, I what Johnny Ive is going for. He couldn't get all the way there, but I actually think it looks pretty cool, even still, given all of that that was a first generation model, but certainly cooler than the next two where they're like, ah, whatever, plastic. And not until the iPhone

four did they end up with a better, a better design. But the first iPhone, yeah, for many reasons, it's my number one. Yeah, I think that there are, and you've kind of already mentioned one, I think there are many categories where the original is not the one you pick, right? From any category. But the original iPhone is maybe as good as a product could ever be, being the first. It was incomparable. Like, nothing came close. There was nothing like it.

And one of the things that, at least the way I've been approaching my list is, if you're picking a later product, you have to pick, you know, you're not encompassing in my mind, you're not encompassing the entire product line and picking a representative product. You need to say why that won. And so I did seriously consider the iPhone 4. I wrote a whole thing last week on Macworld about the iPhone 4. The iPhone 4 is amazing and will be picked in this draft.

Oh, absolutely, it will be. If not soon, then eventually, because it's amazing in so many ways. But I'm not going to sweep all of the greatness of the iPhone into the iPhone 4 because that's not how this works, I think. So original iPhone for this one. But you're right. I'm not picking the original Mac. I'm not going to pick the original iPod.

I'm not going to pick the Apple One or the Apple two. Like, first versions are not always very good. Yeah, but this one was. I mean, look, you know, this will age, but I do. I don't think there will ever be a more consequential consumer tech product than the iPhone. Like for what a product is released and then the world changes, Like, I'm not sure that's ever going to happen again, because I don't think it ever happened before. Like, personal computers, incredible.

But one singular product from one company made that much change. As somebody who spent his entire professional life talking about technology, it is a real head scratcher to realize that all of that time I spent in my career focusing on computers before the iPhone came out was just a prelude. That the whole personal computer industry was really just a setup. because we couldn't get smartphones yet. And that the smartphone was essentially the destination. Now, maybe we will go further. And maybe there will be some kind of earth-shattering product in the next 20 years that will completely transform society.

I wouldn't bet on it. I think anything that comes along, it will be like, oh, yeah, it's, you know, but it's kind of like a phone or it's kind of like this. The iPhone was just like, oh, it's not like the other products. It's not like the products that are competing against. It just wasn't. Like, it was as much competing against them. in that it could make phone calls and it went in your pocket

and that's basically where it ended. It was, it just maybe the best thing ever. Okay. Yeah. What do you have? So that was my number one. So now I'm going to go with what is my number two, but we're very happy to be my number one,

the iPod Mini. All right. The iPod Mini, you know, like we spoke about this in our origin stories, is the iPod Mini is like the, it's the most, it is the Apple product I have such, I'd like the highest emotion for because it's the one that brought me in and like brought me in this journey. And I think the iPod Mini is a very significant product in the success that it brought Apple.

Like, you know, I think to get to the iPhone, we needed the iPod Mini because it was the product that I think really exploded the iPod line and the explosion of the iPod line brought Apple back to where they are or where they were able to be. to be able to get to the point that they could produce a product with the iPhone. Like, I think the iPod Mini is, like, that is why it's important to me. But I just think it was, it was really emblematic of what was attractive about Apple at that time, in that it was fun and cool, right? Like, the design was so weird. It was like, you know, it was like a little rectangle, but it had really rounded sides. And it came in a whole range of colors.

And it had the white click wheel and the color. Like, you know, the LED colored screen, not a color screen, right? But it's like blue, right? And it just had this feel to it. And it was young and fresh and all the advertising was so good. Like, to me, it's just such an incredible product. And I love it. And I still have my iPod Mini to this day.

Yeah, I think it's just a fantastic product and deserves to be high on this list. I get it. And I get your personal connection to it. Yeah. And I'm not running your pick down by. saying this, but I didn't have it on my list. I'm not surprised. And I know that there are lots of people that are really upset that I picked

this. But I think you're right. I think you are making a perfectly valid decision. I know how much it means to you. And I think there is a real strong argument to be made that that's the iPod that really kind of like made the iPod explode. Yeah. I mean, this is the thing. I had, my first two picks was the, this is the pick for you and then the

pick for you pick. And you picked my for you pick and now I'm picking my for me pick. Well, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm going to go number two with the most influential computer that Apple has ever released, or at least in the last 20 years. It's the second generation MacBook Air. This was mine.

Oh, wait, hang on. What are we talking about here? The 11-inch and 13-inch MacBook Airs, which generates were they the second or the third. Not the bad one with the flip down door. Okay. The 2011, I believe, MacBook Air. Yeah. 2011. Yeah. That one. That one, because that was when they got it right. The first MacBook Air we don't want to really talk about. I had it. It was bad. It shut down a core in the afternoon when the sun came in my window. But the 11 and 13 inch MacBook Airs that they released

in 2011, they got it right. And like literally every laptop made since then is aiding the MacBook Air, period. Like, it, they created like ultra books as a category to, so they didn't have to say Windows laptops that are kind of like the MacBook Air. But like, I mean, and the MacBook Pro, even the MacBook Pro is like the MacBook Air now. It's not because the MacBook Air is evolved too, but they're closer than they used to be. And like, everything has been informed by that MacBook Air design. It was, it's the most important, it's the defining Mac of, you know, from the 2010.

depends to now, the last 15 years. And I think it's, I think it's one of the most definitive max of all time. So this was actually my third pick. And specifically, I was going to pick the 11-inch, because I had the 11-inch MacBook Air, and I adored that computer. Like, it was so fantastic to have a computer that was as capable as it was in, at that time, in that form factor. The 11-inch MacBook Air. I know you're a super fan

that 11-inch MacWare as well. Absolutely. That was a great time. Absolutely. So I guess it's the late 2010 MacBook Air is technically what it is.

That's the winner. That's the one. So everybody knows what I'm talking about. Anyway, yeah, that was the date. It was late to, I was there. I mean, that's the funny thing. It's like, what year was that? But I remember going to that event

and walking away with the MacBook Air because everybody got to walk away with one. and that 11-inch model was I mean, yes, when I think of it, I think of the 11-inch model because that was my main computer for the next six years or whatever

was an 11-inch air. But just amazing and definitive. I mean, talking about changing the game, like how the iPhone changed the world. In terms of computers and laptops, the MacBook Air changed everything. I'm going to stick on this vibe

and I'm going to pick my favorite Mac ever which is the M2 MacBook Air. You know, this is on my list. Good job. This is absolutely on my list. This laptop, I think, is basically perfect. And so, like, you know, I'm starting with the M2,

and that's the one that I have, but obviously, if you get the M3, the M4, is there an M5 of this yet? There's an M5. Yeah, yeah. They all have it. They all have it. It's the new, it's the current design language where it's got the flat, it's not the wedge.

It's got the flat top and bottom and the rounded sides. And I remember, again, I remember getting this, seeing it at the event and then getting my review unit and just saying like, oh boy, this is so good.

And I, again, as a MacBook Air wedge partisan all the way back to, as we've just determined, late 2010, I get, I get that your wife has a great fondness

for that wedge design and all of that. I totally get it. But for me, as somebody who also, had great fondness for that. When the M2 air came, I thought, oh. This is the one. Yeah. Because this is the computer that Apple Silicon enables on that side, right? Like Apple Silicon kind of enables computers on both ends of the scale, right? You can have something incredibly powerful because of how powerful these chips can be and how power efficient they are, but you can also have something

incredibly thin and light with no fan that is plenty power. powerful and incredibly battery efficient because of what these chips enable. Like, you know, we've all said that many times. The M2 MacBook Air is what they wanted to make when they made the Toilmage MacBook. Right. Like that is the product you would want to make. And it turns out they were able to make it many years later when they actually went to Apple Silicon. And it's like, you know, the M1 MacBook Air, as great as it was, you know, it's like,

oh, we're going to take this design and put this chip in it wonderful. But what if we started from zero? and the zero we're starting is that we base it around the capabilities of ripple silicon chips, and you create this computer. And to me, it is the most awesome combination. Like, I love my M2 MacBookCare, and it will be, I will be very sad when I replace it with the touchscreen MacBook Pro because I really want a touchscreen Mac.

And so, but as soon as they put a touchscreen back on their MacBookCare, I'm going right back. I'm going right back. views on that one. I think that is a conversation for another time, but I think that's a product that it's going to a lot of it's going to be in the details of how they do that. Oh, yeah. Oh, I know.

All right. From my third pick, I'm going to finally leave the 21st century. I'm going to go back in time and I'm going to make a pick here that is the product that I think you could argue allowed the Mac to flourish

and succeed. It's also going to be our first accessory slash peripheral in the draft, but I feel so strongly about this that the max of that era were okay, to good to great.

But what made the secret sauce that made the Macs succeed in the 80s and survive in the 90s is the laser writer. Wow. Wow. Okay.

Come to school. Time for a history lesson, Mike Curley. Please, please, please. The LaserWiter, which integrated Adobe's PostScript technology and allowed Macs to become desktop publishing engines and create content at printed quality right out of a computer, completely changed the game. It's what made the publishing industry embrace the Mac. It led to many other models, and you could upgrade it to a laser writer too by putting it to different logic board. They improved it in a bunch of ways, but the laser writer, it really did change. the fortunes of Apple, the Mac, and Adobe, and the publishing industry completely.

This is how desktop publishing came to be, is this product. It was kind of accidental in some ways. It was part of the Mac Office, which was this initiative that is mostly remembered now for the Lemmings commercial that was so bad. Parts of the Mac Office never shipped, like the file server that they could never ship, but the Laser Writer didn't need the rest of the Mac Office. It just needed itself. It is an all-timer.

And so I'm going to take a high pick on the Laser Rider because I think it is that important. I feel like you probably pick this one now because it's important to you, not because you thought you were going to lose it otherwise? Because I think it deserves to be this high, but definitely not strategically. Because I know you're not going to pick it.

But you know what? I'm giving it to you because I wasn't going to pick the iPod Mini. And here we are. There you go. Well, congratulations. LaserWriter. Laser writer. I'm going to pick now what I consider to be one of the most important iPhones ever shipped, and it's not the one you're thinking of. I'm going to pick the iPhone 6 plus. Ah, okay. I see what you're doing here. This was the first big iPhone. Mike, it's iPhone math. It's iPhone math. It makes the list. iPhone math. That is an incredible deep cut where it, it, it, it. From a translation. Yeah.

Of the plus and they translated it because it was presumably in China and in a language that was not English and somebody interpreted that plus as being math. And so they said the new phone, the larger phone will be called the iPhone math. And we will have to deal with that for a little while. Amazing. I love it. The iPhone 6 plus was the first big iPhone. Yes.

And while necessary, you know, I think while maybe big iPhone was not super popular at that point, it obviously set trajectory to where all of the iPhones are massive, where all of the iPhones now all phones are bigger than the iPhone 6 plus, right? This is the response to Samsung having success with the Galaxy Note and realizing, because Samsung just released a bunch of stuff and was like, well, let's see what happens. And everybody was like, yes, I want a giant phone. And Apple, which had been so skeptical and had built iOS around these fixed sizes that they had to very rapidly say, no, make your apps be able to expand to different sizes because they realized

that they had left this opening and they had to fill it. And the truth is, a lot of us out there can grouse about big phones versus small phones, but the market spoke. The market spoke. People want big phones. That's just, I know some people want small phones, but almost everybody wants a bigger phone with more stuff on it. So that iPhone 6 plus, you could also, I mean, you know, I love my financial charts and all of that. This is when the, this is when Apple and the iPhone exploded in terms of revenue was this product. And they never came down.

Yeah, this was a part of why I picked this. It is also the point when the iPhone became serious. Like, at this is it. Like, the reason that we are here where we are now with the iPhone was the iPhone 6 line. You know, it's the thing that we spoke about on this show many times. This is also when we launched the show was the iPhone 6. right? It's true. Episode one of Upgrade was the iPhone 6. It was my review of the iPhone 6, yeah. And it was at that point where all charts became meaningless.

And then Apple was digging itself out of a hole for a few years because they sold so many that there was this blip. Now, it came down and then went back up. And then, you know, it's like, as you have done many times, which you kind of normalize those charts. You see it's just a linear progression. I did just look it up. The iPhone 6x had a 5.5 inch display. The iPhone 17E has a 6.1 inch display. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And obviously the phone was physically larger because we were dealing with bezels and a home button and all that kind of stuff then. But it is a funny thing. I just think, you know, and also the iPhone 6 design language, I think over time it got, we got very tired of it because Apple did not change anything for many years. But at the time, it felt very new, great in hand, right? Very thin and rounded. did, like it had a very nice, different feeling to the phones that had come before it. So, yeah, the iPhone 6 plus for me. Great choice.

Fantastic choice. Not on my list, but I knew you would pick it, so it's fine. I am going to go with another Mac, and it's tough because I want to kind of, like, paint a picture here. I want to pick a good selection of Macs. Here's my, we're going back in time again. This is going to be a historic pick, and I have a little, story about why. It's the power book. I'm going to say the 170, although we could really just say power book first generation and it counts the 100, the 140, and the 170, all of which came out

basically the same time. So they did the Mac portable and it was a disaster. And this is the earliest days of laptops. And there weren't a lot of laptops out there and laptops were underpowered. But the power you could get by bringing your computer with you and not by taking like a classic shaped Mac and putting it in a bag and lugging it around. But like literally, uh, this was actually part of Steve Jobs' original conception for the Mac.

He was like, he had a whole like phrase. He was like Mac in a book by 1986. Like he, he really wanted them, them to have this laptop, essentially what we think of now as a laptop. Yeah.

And the short version of the story is, all laptops at this time did not look like laptops do today. This is, you want to talk about a change the world moment. This is a change the world moment. This is a change. the world product because there was an engineer who was messing around with like little drawings and cut up pieces of paper and then eventually a foam core model that he brought to a meeting.

And he said, what if we took the keyboard and the keyboard at every laptop at that point was at the front of the control surface? What if we pushed it back? That gets us palm rest and a place for at that point a track ball to move the mouse. And the reason that is that we're going to move the mouse. And the reason that they had to do this, the reason Apple is the one that came up with this concept was because PC laptops are in DOS, they didn't need pointers. Max, you could not operate without a pointer. You had to have a mouse. So how would you do that?

And so he had this idea of like, the keyboard doesn't come all the way up to the front. You push it back. You got a place to put your palms, your wrists, and you've got a pointing spot. and that after this every laptop looked like that literally every laptop looked like that also for people who do not remember that far for people who are not the olds i'll just say the power book was a sensation this was in many ways the first mac to actually like get people talking and it was expensive these were expensive but like there was the one i like to cite is that there's a new yorker article about how tech or not tech entertainment mogul uh barry Diller used to do his power lunches in Hollywood with his power book on the table. Like, it was like a power move to have his computer with him at all times. And like it, it, it, not only did it make the laptop a key part of Apple's entire Mac product line going forward, it never, they never went back. But it redefined the entire market. So power book,

first generation. It's iconic the look of this thing. Like, you know, again, I remember seeing these in my life. My uncle had one and it was like, oh, such a cool looking thing. I had a power book 160, the second generation and I loved that thing so much. It was awesome. Yeah. I was thinking now, you know, the pick that I'm going to make now, I feel like, oh, I'm picking everything that's modern. But the pick that I'm about to make was really 16 years ago, so I don't think it's as modern as I think. This is the iPad, the original iPad. At the time, you know, it really did. It felt like the next big thing from Apple. And, for a while it was. You know, like the iPad was an unbelievable success when it first shipped. And, you know,

things changed over time with the iPad and its trajectory, but it started something new. You know, like it, it wasn't just a big iPhone. Like, it did do different things. Apps were made differently for it. You know, like there was a whole wave of apps that had HD in the name because they had a different UI and people sold them separately. And, you know, it was an incredible. And, you know, it was an I'd say extra points for the presentation from Steve Jobs, right? Like it was another classic in a very different way that the original iPhone presentation was a classic. You know, this was much more relaxed and that actually worked for the presentation. But also, like, if you were around at the time, I'll pay attention at the time.

The $499 price tag was an absolute mic drop from Apple. Everybody thought this thing was going to be like $1,000 or whatever. Because we all knew a tablet was coming. and it was just about what it was going to be. But $499 for this thing was incredible. And yeah, it was a real time when the iPad came out. And I hold that time special. I have it on my list too.

It's actually, if you haven't held one recently, it's actually kind of great. Like, obviously the iPad has evolved so much since then. But that hardware design is amazing. Yeah. It really was. And at the time, just, just, It blew me away.

So clever. Like it had like the bump right in the back so they could make it thin at the edges. It was a very clever design. So you'd hold in your hand and it feels like a magical, you know, future tablet thingy. And then obviously defined what these things were going to be at that point. Okay. I have one more in our top 10, our collective top 10. And I am going to go with a computer that I bought.

and love and you know how much I love it, Mike, because it took up a lot of time in the podcastathon last fall. I'm going to pick the Apple 2E here. Need to represent the Apple 2, wrote a long article on the verge a few weeks ago about why the Apple 2 is the product that established Apple as a company. The Apple 2E was the best iteration of the Apple 2.

Sorry, fans of other Apple 2s. It was the best one. It sort of solved all the problems. of the two and two plus line. And then they iterated on it with the 2C and the 2GS. But like I think the 2E was like just straight down the middle, the core great Apple two. And it, uh, they couldn't kill it.

They tried it with Elisa. They tried it with the Apple 3. They tried it with the original Mac. The Apple 2 was Apple's best selling computer for a very long time. And they were still in use, in classrooms in the late 80s and early 90s. Like they were still out there. and had a bunch of great games and educational software and all sorts of other things. Expansion cards so you could do all sorts of different stuff with it.

That was Waz saying we're going to have a bunch of expansion slots in this thing, even though Steve Jobs didn't want them. Yeah, just I think it's a definitive Apple product, and they sold a huge number of them, and it's the thing that built Apple as a corporation really is the Apple II in general and the Apple II as the kind of like the final, ultimate example of that product line. So Apple 2E.

It had upper and lower case, Mike. Upper and lower case. Big time. Yeah. Terrible. You could always tell back in the back in the days of the at the time the keyboard

didn't seem so bad. It's a mechanical keyboard now. In hindsight it's true. I hadn't touched one until last year. In hindsight, it's not good. No, no, no. No, I have fond memories of it and then I was typing on it

on Stevens, Apple 2E. And I was like, oh boy, this is not so great. There's marshmallow something. But on computer bulletin boards back in that day because we didn't have the internet yet, you would always tell

who had an Apple 2 plus because they typed in all caps. Whoa. Yeah. So Apple 2E, let's hear it for the, it was a lowercasey. It really was.

And that's one of the reasons why. As I'm going through my list, I feel like I am building something that wasn't necessarily intentional, but I'm here anyway. So now I'm just leaning into it. My last pick in the top 10 is the iPod Nano, the first generation iPod Nano.

There's, again, like, there is part product, part strategy that I find so interesting about this product. Like, one, it looked stunning. It's incredibly thin. You know, like, thin to the point that Apple was only recently made a product thinner than it. It looked so good, right, where it was essentially a small version of the regular iPod rather than the mini, which was its own design. right like it had the black or white like color with the clear acrylic on top and then the stainless steel on the other side and it looked amazing it looked even better when it got all banged up like that was one of the iPods that just looked fantastic because it got banged up because that one

got banged up in every direction it did yeah the you know ever wonder what this pocket is for presentation moment right when Charles pulls it out of the little coin pocket in his genes, but also just the boldness of the strategy that the iPod mini was the best-selling iPod. And instead of doing an iPod Mini 2, they replaced it with the iPod Nano.

And then the iPod Nano then got many revisions. From my perspective, none of them as good as the original. From all of the things that I loved about the iPod Nano, I don't think there was ever an iPod Nano that was better than the first iPod Nano. I was not really an iPod Nano person, I think, for this reason.

Like, as the product went along and became more vibrant and colorful and took on various forms, for me, none of them were ever as good as the original iPod Nano. I love the iPod Nano. Also, for the people of the nitpickers out there, there were two generations of iPod Mini. There was an iPod Mini too. Yeah, but was it, though? Yeah. The next year, they came out with an updated version of it with different colors.

Okay, yeah, but colors is not. But it's basically the same. Yeah. And then they killed it. Yeah. And it was their best-selling product. and then they killed it famously, which is why the nano is so interesting. Thank you for the clarification.

But from my perspective, it's like, you know, they didn't do for the iPod mini that they did for basically all of the other iPods, where it's like we're going to keep iterating on this product and making it different. So, yeah, for me, the iPod Nano was amazing. This episode is brought to you by Delete Me. Delete Me makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everybody vulnerable. Sadly, it's easier than ever to find personal information about people online.

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So you're on, we're into like the second set here, picks 11 to 20. Yeah, I'm doing some tiering now in my list. That's probably helpful at this point. Kind of on deck. What's on deck for me that I could pick soon? I am going, you've been doing a lot of iPods. I love iPods. I'm going to jump in to the iPod.

And I'm going to pick. The question here is like, I'm going to do the classic iPod. And I think I wanted to be the fourth generation iPod. so this is so the first generation first first two were firewire port on the top and then they moved and then they had the third generation which was one with the four horizontal touch buttons that was the worst iPod of all time and then there was then they came back they brought it back to

the click wheel design was this the iPod photo no the iPod photo was next. Okay. Maybe. This is the iPod fourth generation or the iPod click wheel

where they bought the click wheel back. Okay. And that is, yeah, it all gets messed up. The iPod photo came a few months later, but I'm not picking that.

I'm picking the fourth-gen iPod because I want the best kind of classic before it started getting a whole bunch of stuff added to an iPod. And I think the iPod fourth generation is that one, because the third one was bad.

And the first two, like I have a lot of fondness for the first one. I have one. It has a moving wheel. The wheel actually moves. And it's got the buttons around the ring. And then they changed the wheel to be a, to be like a capacitive wheel,

but you still have the buttons around it. Then they did the four touch buttons that are so bad. And then in this one, it's a click wheel for the first time. So you've got a non-moving wheel, but you can move your finger over it to rotate. And if you click at the edges of the wheel, wheel, that's how you do your controls.

There isn't a ring of buttons around them. I feel like this is kind of like the home of like the definitive classic iPod is right here. So that's why I want to pick it. Because the iPod, very important to Apple's history. I was a, I was a, what we call iPod classic, big iPod user the whole time. I never used an iPad Mini or an iPad Nano. I always, or iPod Nano. I always had the big iPod.

Yeah. Because I had lots and lots of music and I wanted all that music. And then later podcasts that I would sync to it. And so I got to go with a fourth generation iPod. That's my that's my iPod of choice. Yeah, because this click will design, it debuted on the mini first, and then a few months later came to the classic.

What's now, I guess known as the classic. Yeah, and replacing that four horizontal button design terrible, really ugly. Stephen loves them and I don't understand it. I feel like there's just some weird nostalgia there for him. Yeah, that's what it is. Because that is, that is, I'm,

I think the ugliest of all of the iPods. It's not a look of that one. I'm not a fan of those buttons either anyway. Like the little touch buttons, not great for that. All right, so, okay. Yeah. I'm looking at, I mean, this is the thing where I have this tearing in my list, and I'm like, I just don't know.

But there's some stuff here. I know I'm going to get to it eventually. So I'm just going to pick this now. I'm going to go for the iPhone 10. Hi on my list. You kind of jumped right in ahead of me there. iPhone 10. Great choice.

It's, you know, this was, I think somewhat similar to the original iPhone. And it was a product that felt like it was from the future at the moment that it arrived. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that was, again, similar to the original iPhone, shown in the fact of how expensive it was compared to competition, right? But the original iPhone, it wasn't a high value, but it was a value you had to pay on top of a contract. You know, like it was an expensive phone compared to what was going on at a time. And the iPhone 10 was $1,000, I think, was the start and price for the iPhone 10?

Impossible. Yeah. Which, and, you know, it was obvious that it was so expensive and considered to be a luxury item because they also released another iPhone alongside it, right? They released the eight. And that was the expectation of like, hey, we're going to. to put this out there because we know we're not going to get everyone onto the 10. But again, obviously the 10 did so well and then continued from there because people could see it. It was like, yeah, I want that. Right. And really what was the two big things for the iPhone 10 was

a full screen. We're removing the button and we're doing face ID. Like unbelievable technology at that point. And the things that they were doing to make all of that work, the iPhone 10 was incredible. It was an incredible time. I really hope that next year we get a similar for the 20. First OLED iPhone, too. It was, yes, it was the first OLED iPhone. Yeah, the iPhone 10 to me is kind of an archetype. It's Apple doing what Apple does,

which is they built a product that feels like the future and they did it by they pushed the technology it's a bunch of new technology in there it was more expensive I think that was part of the strategy was to push the price up I say this a lot but like the iPhone 10 ushered in an era where Apple has continued to explore how much they can charge for an iPhone before people say no and they haven't found that answer yet yeah that was probably a very exciting time for them yeah like oh my god they bought the $1,000 phone well what if it was and now we hear a thousand dollar phone we're like yeah okay so but like at the time it was a It was a huge deal. Well, this year, we will probably pass 2000, right? With default. It is the defining iPhone of this era of the last almost 10 years is it set us on the course that we're still on in terms of iPhone design. Super important phone.

Had a high on my list. Completely agree. And now for something completely different. I am, you know, I'm going to go back to the Mac now. Okay. And I'm going to pick the best Mac design of all time, which is the IMac G4. Okay. The float, like, there was a little period where they could make a computer with a floating flat screen.

Yeah. And actually take advantage of the fact that we have these flat screens. when you think of how big the iMac G3 is. And we left this period very quickly because screens kept getting bigger and they couldn't make an arm where it was practical to have a giant screen on that little arm. So they moved to the iMac G5 design, which is essentially the design of every iMac since then. But in this little shining moment,

they got to build this thing with that incredible chrome arm. It is the sunflower iMac. It is, yeah, I think it's the best, one of the very best pieces of industrial design Apple has ever done. And it is the best Mac design of all time. Now, as a computer, it was fine. Like, it was better than the IMAG3. But really what's amazing is that it has that Apple feels like the future thing going on there.

And the fact that they put that ridiculous amount of engineering effort into not just the Chrome arm itself, but also the cabling required to get all the stuff up into the display. through that arm so that they could suspend the arm up and then fit all the whole computer into that kind of half volleyball that was sitting at the base just kind of an amazing bit of engineering all around but the best industrial design so iMac g4 it was almost like the product was an advertisement for apple like i i remember there was a like a department store close to where i was where i lived as a kid and uh they had the iMac g4 they just had it out there for years, way after it was

sold. And people were always playing with it because it was just like, what is this thing? Like, it just, it looked like the most expensive computer you could ever imagine, you know, because of how beautiful it was. I've moved up something in my list because I think it feels right to pick it here, and that's the IMAG3.

Okay. You know, the story of the IMAG3 is well known. You know, like it really it was the beginning of the one of the greatest partnerships in technology, right, of jobs and I've, like, this was their product that they started on together and really pushed into becoming something.

It was so beautiful. There was nothing like it. Nothing existed like the IMAG3 and kind of after it, nothing has existed like it since, really. Obviously, with the exception of like the Ibook, right? But like technology has never again looked like this. And it's just an incredible computer. I remember I did work experience as a kid. And it was a range from my school. And I was working at like an internet learning facility for schools that didn't have computers.

So like schools could come and use computers. And it was all IMAG3s. And so I spent a week updating all of these IMACG3s to a version of Mac OS10, like whatever it was at the time. And it was just an incredible week. I just got to use all of these. these IMAG3s and I just had a wonderful time with it just like playing around these computers for a week. That was the most time I spent on a G3. I didn't have one. And it was an absolute delight because those computers were delightful. They were huge. And obviously all the stories about it saving Apple's bacon and allowing it to have its turnaround and they were so definitive and everybody knew it and everybody talked about it and the look of them made a difference. And it again was one of those things where everybody, all the other computer companies tried to.

to ape it and they kind of couldn't. I mean, they failed to do it. It was, it was a, it was a, it was very much a message that only Apple could do this. And the Apple and China book, um, puts that into detail. Like, in many ways, nobody else could make it because even Apple couldn't make it. They had to figure out how to make it. Apple and China is great for both the G3 and the G4, like the story of those two computers and the details that, uh, McGee got really, really, really good. Yeah. Yeah. So, I love the. the iPad and I haven't picked an iPad product yet, which is a little bit weird. I'm going to get weirder though, Mike. I'm going to get weirder. I'm going to pick the second generation Apple Pencil.

Okay. Okay. The Apple Pencil. Yeah. It is, like, in some ways it defines now the iPad. It is the Apple device that is you can use to, to draw and to take notes. It makes the iPad have more. It is, more powers than other Apple devices have. And the second generation one is also brilliant. I know we've talked about it on this show before, because if you're holding, I'm holding one in my hand right now, you might as well be holding a block of wood.

Like, it doesn't feel like technology. The tip screws off, but like, it doesn't have a little plastic cap. That you pop off and there's like a little lightning nubbin that you have to weirdly stick somewhere in order to get, no,

this one, it's magnetic attach, inductive charge, there's no interface to it. It's a piece of hardware that feels like nothing, like a pencil. And so that part of it is brilliant. And then what you can accomplish with it is amazing. And as somebody who doesn't really draw or like to handwrite things,

I fell in love with it too because I could use it to edit podcasts using Fairwrite. And I had that moment where I thought, oh, this input device is better at this than the other traditional input devices that I might use, including even just my fingers on an iPad. And I think it is a transformative... I really believe that the iPad is in many ways defined by the accessories you attach to it.

It is that kind of product. It is this kind of core that you then choose how you want to use it. And I think the Apple Pencil is a fantastic accessory that defines the product to this day. I've moved a product up my list because I consider justice justice is needed.

It's the first generation Apple Pencil. Oh, no! Look, I understand why people laughed at the design, right? They're all like, oh, it's got this little cap on it and there's a lightning port. But I have always appreciated the practicality of that charger

because ultimately, you needed to be able to charge this product with the device that you use. it on. And Apple ended up solving that in a very great way with the second generation. Yes. But the first generation, it did the job. Right. Like it did the job. If they didn't have another way to do it, this was the way to do it. There was absolutely a way to do this, which it did not look like that and they were going to make you plug in a cable into that thing or something like that, right? Or they were going to make you use an inductive charger. And it would have been

really annoying because you would have needed another cable with you. But the product was And they engineered it in such a way that you could plug it in for a very short time and get use out of it. I don't remember the exact amount, but it was like you could plug it in for a minute and use it for half an hour or something like that. They were very focused on making that quick.

But all of that, people focus on so much, but ultimately it was the Apple Pencil, right? Like all of the things that you love in the second generation was in the first generation, right? in that it was, it's the best that we've ever had this kind of technology of a pencil input onto a screen. You know, all of the work Apple did to make the latency so low that it felt natural. And it was, for me at the time, was such a blessing because you could also use it for controlling

the iPad Pro. And I was dealing with some bad RSI. Well, it worked and then it took it away and then it back again. again. It was really wonderful for being able to control the iPad interface as well as drawing on it. And so perfect no, but absolutely got the job done. That's fair. That's fair. Okay, well, two Apple Pencils go here in quick succession, a quick run on Apple Pencils. I guess I'm going to have to pick the Apple Pencil pro now just to, nope, I'm not going to do that. Well, people who've listened this far know that we are picking things in totally wacky ways and for wacky reasons.

I have been watching, I've been, you know, writing about the Macs since 1993. I've been a Mac user since 1990. I've been an Apple user since the 80s. I have seen a lot. And one of the frustrations I have with, like the Verge did their 50 list, which was after we had thought about doing this, by the way. We weren't inspired by the Verge. We were like, ah, they did it. Let's put ours off for a while so people aren't totally sick of it.

And then we'll still do this. You know, people who have only been paying attention to Apple for 10 or 15 years might kind of lose perspective about some of the history, which is why I picked the Apple 2E. And it's why I picked the laser writer. And so when I say this, I want people to take into account the fact that I am considering the grand sweep of Apple's 50 year history. when I say, if you can make a Mac laptop for $599, it's one of the top 50 products of all time for Apple. And that's why I pick the MacBook Neo. Wow.

Wow. Did I do it? Did I do a number on you there? When we start at this episode today, I was like, I don't think we're going to pick the MacBook Neo. Yeah, baby. Wow. Wow.

Yeah, the MacBook Neo. I mean, they made a, they made a, full functional laptop for $599. Yeah. Yeah. It's selling well. It works. It's good. It's cute. And I think personally, and this may be a pick later, the moment when they put out the Mac mini for $4.99 was also an incredible moment for the Mac to have that. And then the next year, they're like, I'm about $5.99. But they had it there for a moment. And I think Steve Jobs, like he had that little glint in his eyes. Like, oh, yeah, we did it. Right? Like that expensive

Mac. Now you can get this thing and, you know, bring your own keyboard and just blame and mouse, but you can get a Mac. And then Map of Neo, like, it's the same thing. People, I was standing there at that warehouse in New York City where they had this event surrounded by very smart, knowledgeable people who watch Apple and nobody believed that it would be anywhere close to $599 or $6.99. Nobody. They're all like, it's $7.99, right?

Maybe it's $700, but probably $7.99. No, it's $5.99 and it's fully functional. and it's a triumph of Apple Silicon and it's a perfectly good little laptop for that price and it potentially will upset the entire Windows laptop market and I think it's a milestone

so I here it is in the teens of the iPad right what I was saying earlier like nobody thought it was going to be the price that it was and the fact that it was all of that computer for that price is kind of unfathomable I love it

all right my next pick I feel like it has to be on the list and I feel like it has to be in the top 20 I'm picking the Mac, the 128K. I don't have a ton to say about this computer. It is, but it is iconic, and it will always be iconic. It is iconic. And for me, it kind of doesn't matter what its capability was.

It doesn't matter how good it was. It doesn't matter how good other products that came after it were. Look at that thing. You know, just look at them. I know. It changed, it changed everything. I was steering away from it because it is, I mean, it's a good pick. It was underpowered.

They had to put out the fat Mac. the 512 later that year because the lack of memory, the fact that it didn't have a hard drive or a second internal floppy, what made it very hard to use. It didn't sell very well because of that. They had a lot of problems with the Mac product line. But you cannot argue with the fact that this is the product that changed what

computers would be. Like, this is the start of it. This is what happened. And it was because of Steve Jobs and that incredible, creative team of people, many of whom basically burned out after this and we're like, we're done. But this product is a triumph.

Yeah, no doubt about it. No doubt about it. It's an all-timer. All right, what's your, this would be your 10th pick, right? This will be pick 19. 19, 19. I am going to come back to the modern era and I'm going to say a product

that I was deeply skeptical of because I like products the way I like them and that this was doing something different and it has proven to be one of my favorite Apple products of all time. I'm going to pick a very particular model of it, which is the first generation AirPods Pro. Okay.

But I want to break the seal on the AirPods here. Okay. Because I think they're amazing. And I want to take you back to an era where a lot of people like me said, oh, Apple's headphones are going to garbage. They used to include headphones with everything, like those little white earbuds. They would include those with iPhone and with the iPod and stuff. And for me, it was just not even unwrap it,

just like straight in the drawer, forget about it, who cares? Because I thought they were bad. I didn't like how they looked. I didn't like how they fit in my ears. I didn't like how they sounded. Put in my snazzy in ear headphones that sound really good. And so when the rumor came that Apple was going to do wireless headphones. I'm like, whatever. And they have replaced my in-ear headphones for almost everything I do except for podcasts at this point. They are so good. So I love the AirPods in general.

And I think the way that they've, like the way they executed on them, the fact that lots of people love the AirPods now, they really have become a hit product. But those first AirPods Pro that added the noise cancellation, it's like how could you, even do that on things that aren't big. I had written it off. Like the only way to do noise cancellation for me, because I don't like the big cans on my ears, would be the in ear where it cancels the noise. It doesn't cancel it. It just blocks it. But these things actually cancel it and they work and they work

really well. And they've only gotten better over time. So AirPods Pro, I think they're really great. Yeah, my 10th round pick is the AirPods Pro too. You're a fast follower. Yeah, fast follower. For all of the reasons you mentioned, but the adjustments that the second version got really, to me, made them sing. So obviously, like all of them, improvements to sound, improvements to noise cancellation. But the swiping to change volume was amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because that was one of the things that was very frustrating about AirPods and AirPods pros. You couldn't change volume with them. That felt like a step back from having, like, their little in line with the clicker. it has U1 in the case, so much easier to find the AirPods Pro, which is important, and MagSafe charging. So you don't have to plug them in anymore. So the little magnetic will sit on the little case. I don't remember if the AirPods Pro 2 could charge on the Apple Watch, but I think so. I think so, right?

And so, yeah, that was very clever, too, that you have multiple ways of charging that product, which is super nice. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace, the all-in-one website platform that is designed to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just getting started or scaling a business, Squarespace will give you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your offerings of a professional website, grow your brand and get paid all in one place. With Squarespace, you can make the most of their Blueprint AI system, which is their new website building platform, which will let you quickly and easily build a site bespoke to your business. You just input some basic information about your industry and the goals that you want for your site, and they will make

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That is Squarespace.com slash upgrade and the offer code upgrade for 10% of your first purchase and show you support for the show. A thanks to Squarespace for the support of this show and all of Relay. All right. Pick number 21. All right, number 21.

I'm going to go with, because I said I love the iPad, and I don't think I picked an iPad. I just picked an Apple Pencil. I'm going to need an iPad to use with it. There may be some compatibility issues. We'll work it out. The iPad I'm going to pick.

So iPad is tough. I had the first iPad on my list. then it gets weird. There was the iPad 2, which is fine, and then they went retina, but there was the bad retina, and then they went retina with the good retina. There's a lot going on there. I'm going to go the other direction.

I'm going to pick what I think is in some ways the pinnacle of iPad design, despite the erasency bias. It answers the question, what happens if you took all creative pursuits and crushed them in a hydraulic press until they just oozed out color? It's the M4 iPad Pro. The ultra, ultra thin iPad Pro with the tandem OLED display gorgeousness.

It is the ultimate iPad. And I think in some ways, when I hold it in my hands with no case on it, I am still baffled about how that product exists. It's so great. And this is the iPad that I use every day. is one of these. I think I have an M5 now, but like, whatever,

they're the same. It was introduced in the M4 iPad Pro. It is incredible. So the display, the processor, love everything that goes along with it. It's an amazing product. Yeah,

this is, you know, I've probably said it's at least two more times in today's episode. This was the iPad that brought me back to the iPad again in a big way. The M4 is just incredible. I love my,

the 11 inch especially, but both of them are wonderful, but it's just such a great display, such a great form factor. It really is brilliant, such a brilliant machine. I'm also going to pick an iPad Mini. I'm going to pick the iPad Mini 2. So this product was white marvelous.

This is the right iPad Mini to pick, and it was on my list. What made this iPad Mini so special? So two things. one, I had a written display. Yeah. That's number one. I remember getting this and being like, oh, yeah.

Here we go. But the thing that was so striking was that it had essentially the same internals as the iPad Air. And so the conversation at the time was all you need to do is just choose what size do you want. Do you want the big one or the little one? And you're going to get the same experience from like a power and performance perspective. but the iPad Mini too was unbelievably good such a great iPad

at that time it was the best iPad to pick of all of them I think and yeah I loved it loved that iPad Mini great choice while we're on iPads you know

again I made the case that what is an iPad if it's not for its accessories and for what this represents I'm going to put it here which is the Magic Keyboard for iPad Pro. In a kind of a dark time, this was a shining beacon

because this is the moment where Apple said, yeah, the iPad can have a pointer. It's got a track pad on it. And I thought about picking, and we may get there. The original iPad Pro, which came with the keyboard,

but the keyboard was like, didn't have a pointing device and it had to sort of double fold over and wasn't great. Whereas this one, it's got the cantilever design. It turns your iPad into a laptop. It's got a good keyboard.

not the kind of membrane keyboard of that previous smart keyboard and it's got the track pad and that means you've got a pointer on screen and it really changes the game and I liked using my iPad Pro a lot before but this is the moment where I stopped taking my laptop

outside like literally it was just the iPad in the keyboard case if I wanted to go somewhere and do some writing. That was it. It was all over when they came out with the magic. Now, they've improved it since,

but I will stick with the original one. It had limitations. It didn't have the function row that is nice to have. But still, just for the transformational moment and the fact that they backed it up with the software features inside to give you a full-on pointer, not the kind of weird accessibility pointer

that you could kind of use, but like a full-on supported by Apple pointer on iPad OS. I just loved it. Fantastic moment. I'm putting a link in the show notes to the video that you put on your YouTube channel, which was like it was the first video Apple made, right, in the COVID era. Oh, yeah. At the time, felt so weird, but I was just watching it then.

I mean, like, oh, no, I know what this is. Like, it doesn't feel weird watching it now because it's like, oh, they all look like this. But at the time, it felt very strange to just have Craig Federici on his own in an office. Yeah. Talking about the cursor. I'm not surprised that we've gotten to like into the 20s

without picking an Apple Watch I'm not either I struggled to pick an Apple Watch right so did I have a couple on my list but I did struggle with this so did I but there was I thought if I was going to pick one the one that I would pick is the Apple Watch

series of four oh okay this is this was the first and I think maybe only significant reading design of the Apple Watch, like where it actually started to look quite different. And this is, they made the case a little bigger and the screen much bigger. And so like this was like, you know, we finally got what is essentially an edge to edge display on the Apple Watch. It wasn't kind of like

just stuck in like a little square, a little rectangle inside of a bigger rectangle. We got the corner complications and all that stuff. But the other thing for me is it had the gold stainless option, which is in my opinion the best looking Apple Watch that Apple's ever made. The gold stainless one. So the Apple Watch Series 4, I think it was also always on display as well, which was a big deal for the Apple Watch because it finally made the Apple Watch a watch that you could see the time on all the time, which is not a thing that you could do beforehand. Because if you were looking down at the desk and you didn't raise your hand, well, your watch was black. It didn't do anything. So I think the Apple Watch Series 4 set up a lot of what

the Apple Watch came. Always on the Series 5. Sorry, it wasn't Series 4. Thank you. to Discord for Craig to me. But nevertheless, still love the way that the series four looked. It was a good looking Apple Watch. All right. Well, I'll give you always on, even though that was the next model. It doesn't matter. I struggle with this, too.

I think I decided that if I was going to pick an Apple Watch series, I would pick the 10. Just because it got super thin then, and I think that, and with the big screen. But I struggle with that, too. I'm going to go a completely different direction and pick the, greatest of all classic Macs, the Mac SE 30. I didn't have one. I had a Mac SE, but if you talk to John Syracusa,

Adam Anx, John Gruber, they'll all tell you that the SE30 is the best. One of the reasons is the best is because it had expandability and it had a 608030 processor, so it was as fast as a Mac 2, but in a compact case. And although the internal display was black and white, you could put in a color card and stick

a big external color monitor on it and do all sorts of other stuff with it. It had internal hard drive, which was huge because you don't want to be using floppy drives and swapping disks and all of that. It was overpowered and lasted forever because it was so overpowered. It was really a standout Mac. And if you mistook it for a Mac SE, I'll just say the difference between the 68,000 processor and the SE and the SE 30 and the SE 30, you do like a couple of clicks on an SE 30 and you realized, Oh, this isn't an S. It's like not even close. It was so fast and powerful. And, you know, talk to anybody who was a hardcore Mac user around then and they will extol the virtues of it.

Plus, it was still on the classic Mac form factor, and you can just pick it up and carry it around with you. So our list is having less overlap at this point than I thought it may. So I'm starting to move some things up that I'm worried otherwise won't get picked. Okay. And there's things that I just want to include on this list. We'll see, because if you pick them and I say I had it on my list, then you'll know that you... I know.

But I still want to get that. You underestimated me. Okay, go ahead. The MacBook, the polycarbonate one. For me, the white one, but it also came in white and black. I had the black MacBook on my list. Yeah. I loved this computer.

Now, I am talking about the original. In looking stuff up today, had forgotten that they brought it back. in 2009. They brought it back again. After the, again, completely I had forgotten that they had one version of this, the MacBook, that was a unibody aluminum

computer. I completely forgotten about that. And then that became the MacBook Prolog. It is the 2006 Polycarbonate MacBook. 2006 one, for all of its faults, the cracking,

the, like yellowing, doesn't matter. This computer, It was so cool. I loved it. It was the entry level Mac for a long time. You know, this was one of the Macs where, like, there were all these pictures of, like, lectures, right?

And all of the students had Apple logos on their computers, and it was MacBooks. Everybody had the MacBook. The polycarbonate MacBook was a great computer. It was the second Mac I ever owned of my own. And it was just, it was great. I loved it. It had all of the I owe that I wanted. The screen was great for at the time.

I was a big fan of this computer. It looked good. It felt great. The keyboard was really fun and different. It was a great computer. Very nice. I said earlier that it would get picked in this draft, and I'm going to pick it now. It's the iPhone 4. The iPhone 4, first off, it's got the design that I think was definitive in the 4 and 5 generation

and then came back. And the modern iPhones still are using a variant of this same design. It's not flat sides. design. The gloss sandwich kind of I love it. I think it looks so good. I think it is the best iPhone design.

I wrote a piece about this. Like I said, at Macworld last week, it's the one that was found in a bar. It's the one that had antenna gate. It's the one where they announced

that it came in black or white and then the white one didn't ship for 10 months. Yeah. It's the first retina iPhone. It's the first Verizon CDMA iPhone. So it broke the AT&T exclusivity

in the U. It is not only a good-looking, impressive phone on its own, but it's also, if an iPhone were a person, this iPhone would be a hot mess. And I love that about it, too, that it's just all the scandals, all the disasters, the fact that they couldn't make a white iPhone until it was almost out of date already. Like, I just amazing. What an amazing product. The iPhone 4 is a problematic fave. That's what the iPhone 4 is. The iPhone 4 is like the real housewives of Cupertino kind of product.

It is a mess. It is just like, it's, it's so impressive. And then, and you're like, oh, this resume is very impressive. And then you get the, like, background check and you're like, oh, no. But it's so beautiful. It is. Yeah, but it's so, yeah. But retina, have you seen the retina?

Oh, I can change him. I can change him. I'll put a bumper on him. I can change him. But you can have a bumper if you want, whatever. I'm going to pick the iPod video. There it is. A video iPod, baby. Nobody needs an iPod with video. Steve Jobs said before you do, because you can watch the office on it.

Yeah, yep. Everything you love about the big white iPod of a wider screen. And this was the last one before it went aluminum and they killed the design in my opinion. this was the last good looking in my opinion iPod Classic love the iPod video yeah it's great

it's great I did watch some stuff on it I have to admit in fact for years maybe I mean I don't know how many years but I mostly because I thought it was funny I synced Citizen Kane to my iPod video because I liked the idea

that I could watch Citizen Kane in the way that that Orson Wells intended it on a very tiny screen while I was riding the bus. It's a great choice. It's a great choice. I have one more iPod, and I'm going to mention it now.

I think it's another one of these great, wacky ideas. That is, it turns out to be an incredible bit of design collaboration and software collaboration. I'm going to pick the second generation iPod shuffle. Because it's one of my favorite iPod designs of all time. This is just the wheel, right?

It's a clip. Yeah. So it's a clip and you clip it to your clothing. And there's a little wheel with next and previous up and down and play paws. And it's super tiny and you just plug your headphones into it. And for years, this was my like lawnmower iPod. Because, and you could, no display. So you could have it shuffle through a playlist.

In later versions, there were some ways to kind of like key off certain things and like kick in this playlist or whatever. But it had a little, it had a little slider for like if you wanted to shuffle or not. And that was about it. But it was so simple. Again, a little like the Apple Pencil. It felt like just like a solid object. It was not like, where is the computer here? And it's like, eh.

It's an appliance. It's a very simple appliance. I think it's a brilliant thing. And the clip, man, what a breakthrough. What a great idea. Whoever in the design team had that idea of like, why don't we literally? So they had made, and it's on my list, and I might pick it, it may happen. They had made a remote for the iPod.

And this was a wired remote. And I had a backpack that my iPod went in. And then the wired remote came out of the backpack and I clipped it to my backpack strap. And you could get the shorter headphones, couldn't you too? So your cable wasn't super long as well. Yeah. Yeah, and that's like if you want to carry your iPod in your backpack, but you want to play pause next, all of that, how do you do it? And so they build this accessory that let you do that.

And I have to think that whoever designed that accessory said, you know, what if we made that and it was the whole iPod? And that's the iPod shuffle. Yeah. Second gen. They ended up replacing it with a one that had no buttons on it. And that was like, whoops, too far. And then they went back. The last iPod shuffle actually was, again, this design.

I just think it's a brilliant design in a brilliant moment to think if we make this thing a clip, people could clip it to whatever because it's obviously a personal object. Clip it somewhere on your body and then that's it. And then there's no iPod in your pocket hanging, you know, pulling down your pocket or whatever, like your bag. It's just on you and it's just a piece, a thing you wear. I love it.

A product that has had a Renaissance in recent years. People buying these. and using them as MP3 players, but they're also like a little fashion accessory because you can get them a little colors, put them in your hair and stuff like that. They've kind of like a little hair clip, or they clip it to a hairband.

Like, I've seen a lot of that. That's happening again. I wasn't going to do this, but I'm going to pick another iPod now, and this is not the last iPod I even have on my list. Oh, my. Okay. I can't be stopped. The first generation iPod touch.

Because if you were not... It's the first taste of iOS outside of the US, right? If you were not in America, this was how you got iPhone OS. And because the iPod Touch came out at the same time everywhere. The iPhone didn't. We had to wait to the following year here in the UK. I think the second launch market, we had to wait to get the iPhone. But I got the iPod Touch as soon as it came out.

I actually, I remember I was in London on a work training event the day before the iPod Touch came out. And I was walking past the Regent Street store and they had them in the window. which went and bought one the day before they went on sale. I have no idea why that happened. I got an iPod Touch one day before I guess I was supposed to. I have no idea what, it was right at the end of the day. So maybe they were setting up for the next day, but they sold me one. The iPod, I remember, and the iPod Touch was great for that because it was, I mean,

it's also super thin, right? Like way thinner than the iPhone, because obviously didn't need to do so much. I'm sure it was less powerful in certain ways. but I was in love with this thing because I got to play with a version of what I was going to get later. Like I remember, I went on a family trip. We went to Spain for a week.

And I have a vivid memory of spending hours on this holiday updating my contacts list in the contacts app because I just wanted to spend time with that iPod touch. Great time. Amazing. This episode is brought to you

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one now. We have passed halfway. And it's down to you, Jason Snell. Unbelievable. Okay. You earlier on decided to stand up for the moment where Apple realized that Samsung was on to something.

And the iPhone 6 plus came out and we began walking down the path of large phones. Oh, I see where this is going. I would like to salute the great beloved dearly departed

iPhone 12 mini okay I love it I would say just departed you know dearly departed I love it I know lots of people out there

are clinging to them or just now replacing them I love it there is something about it now do I love using it like I loved it in my pocket sure

did I love it out of my pocket as much No, no, because it was really cramped and it was very clearly like nobody was even testing software. It's like there would be things that you couldn't really touch sometimes in apps because it's not ideal. But like I loved how light it was and how small it was in my pocket. That's the thing I loved about the iPhone 12 mini and the 13 mini. I wish, I got to be honest, I wish they still made it. But I understand why they didn't, they don't make it anymore.

And I had a moment of real kind of self-clearity. when I was using the iPhone Air, and I thought to myself, I actually like the iPhone Air screen better than the iPhone 17 Pro screen because it's bigger. I thought, oh, I betrayed myself, right? But what I liked about the iPhone Air is that it was light and thin,

but the screen part was like, yeah, yeah, I have big screen. I actually do like the big screen better. So, you know, what they need is some sort of foldable thing that's small and then gets bigger or something. and I don't know. But I want to pour one out for the iPhone 12 Mini. Great phone

that a lot of people really, really love because not everybody wants a big phone. Sure. I guess. The IMac Pro. Oh.

Wow. Wow. Pour one out again. Old friends, ghosts of old friends are visiting us now, Mike. We'll say this is like the matchup of the one and duns,

even though I don't think the 12 mini. There was a 13. There was a 13. mini, but I was going to just say, I was going to say which generation of IMac Pro wasn't Mike. There was only ever one. It is incredible that there was only one. Like they never updated it.

But I think it was a testament to the fact that this machine was so good and such a beast, it didn't need to be updated during its entire lifetime. I think anybody that bought one and then eventually moved to an Apple Silicon computer, some description. They never left that iMac pro feeling like, oh, this thing's done. That machine was amazing. And it was a sad day to let it go. Like, what a computer.

You know, again, we spoke about it so many times on this show. It's from a different time, right? Like, it was on a path that we never saw where that path was going to go. It's from a parallel universe that Apple, by the time it came out, Apple had already decided not to go down that path. But it was great. It's just a great computer. Great computer. It came in black.

Well, essentially, what was black? Yeah. Fantastic. I've got one right here. It still works. Love mine. Love mine. Yeah.

All right. I'm going to go more modern now. And I know that, again, just like picking the MacBook Neo, you're like, oh, a recency bias. I'm like, is it really? I think this one's going to stand the test of time because of the design. And, you know, I'm going to pick it. You can't really buy it.

but I'm going to pick it. I'm going to pick the M4 Mac Mini. This is on my list too. The teeny tiny, teeny tiny mini. Yep. I love the Mac Mini. I almost picked the $499 original model here. But like for years, we kind of looked at the Mac Mini and thought, are they going to keep

it around? And are they ever going to design it to be smaller because it doesn't need to be big? And remember those early Apple Silicon Mac Minis where you could open it up and be like, you could put more Mac Minis inside here. Like there's just nothing in there. They were just using the aluminum. tooling from the previous Intel models. And they finally did make the teeny tiny Mac mini.

And it's so small and so adorable. And yet with Apple Silicon, so powerful. I think it's an all-timer. I really do. I think that it's a very special computer. You can fit a whole pro chip in this bad boy, right? And that's what I have. And this machine, I mean, I honestly forget that I don't have a Mac studio.

Mike is pointing at his computer, which you probably can't see because it's so small, you couldn't see it anyway. I have mine in one of those little, the speaking case that makes it look like the Tangerine IMac G3 styling. Nice. Good, cute. Yeah, it's, I just, we waited so long, but they did it. You know, they made this incredibly tiny Mac Mini. It's just so impressive. I just, I think it is the Mac Mini after all that time living up to its name in a way that it couldn't before.

Yep. And so powerful at the same time. Just amazing. If you have a Mac Mini, you need something to operate the cursor with. So I am picking the Magic TrackPad. Oh, you sniped me good that time. It's been sitting there. And I'm like, when do I pick the magic?

Are you picking the original? I hadn't really thought about that if I'm being honest. Take my advice. Pick the Magic Trackpad, too, because that's the one with the rechargeable battery instead of the AAA there are double A batteries that go in the diving board it's the full on modern one

it's the one you want with the with the haptic right it's when they put the haptic this is the one you want the magic track pad too I love the magic track pad it's huge which is fantastic it's got gestures

which I adore the haptics and all of that stuff so you can click it anywhere it's just it's the ultimate accessory for using a pointer I you know

and I think every desk deserves one if you use a mouse I use a mouse. I use the MX, whatever it's called now. I don't even know. MX Master 3S I've got on this desk. I have the four on the other one. But I still have a magic track pad because the gestures are so good.

You know, the zooming, the going between spaces, mission control, all that kind of stuff. Like unbeatable, the magic track pad. That's where it's at. Yeah. Plus, with most Mac users using laptops, at least some of the time, having the continuity of gestures

is super important. I always used, for many years, I used a track ball. Yeah. Because I really liked, and it actually, I felt like it was healthier

for me to have these kind of like bigger gestures instead of like gripping a mouse and moving it around. And so when they came out with a magic track pad, it just was, it was revolutionary for me because it allowed me to solve,

because the track balls were all kind of like fading away. And I was stockpiling trackballs that were usable. and then I started using the Magic Trackpad and the modern version with the haptics and the rechargeable battery and it'll run on a wired connection or wireless like it's the best. I had one.

I forgot about the one where you would like unscrew the little coin thing and put the double A's inside. I completely forgot about that. Yeah, yeah. And that was more diving board kind of thing. No, this is the one. And we've had it so long now

that it feels like forever. But it's an all-timer. Apple, if you put touch ID on this thing, I will make it number one the next time I do this dropped. No kidding. All right. That is my promise to you. No kidding.

All right. Well, what am I going to do here? I've got, I'm feeling like I'm running out, right? I only have eight choices left. I'm going to, okay, I'm going to go a little bit wacky, but when the Apple Watch came out,

in, in, 2015 after it was introduced in 2014. And when it was introduced and we started having, we talked about it. One of the parts of the conversation was skepticism about the watch bands. And one of the things that I find very funny is that we still have them. Like we still have them. All of the, you get a watch band from the original Apple Watch and you could put it on a modern Apple Watch and it would work.

Which is hilarious. But the number one eye roll. I remember from 2014 was when Apple and Johnny I tried to sell us this cockamamie story about how this stupid plastic rubber watch band that they designed was somehow a good design and not just a cheap fallback for people to make the Apple Watch cheaper if you didn't want to opt for a metal or leather band. And it was the word, Mike, the word was floroelastomer.

Oh, if you didn't say it, I was going to say it. That word is committed to memory for me. Floroelastomer band. And we're all like, oh boy, Apple's new watches come in by default with a cheap, crappy band. And that's why I'm going to pick an

all-time underdog great product. The sport band. Yes. the sport band which I heaped so much scorn on is great

yes it's the goat it's so good the material is good it holds up it comes in colors it's got the little the closure where you slide it and then pop in the little

round nub oh yeah like it's so good so like this is I have been very critical of Johnny Ivan in a lot of ways but I'm going to say

Johnny and his design team, whoever came up with this, whoever built this, whoever decided on the fluorolastomer material, all of that, like, it's great. It legitimately is great. It's maybe my favorite thing about the Apple Watch. It's amazing. I was so worried

when they introduced the solo loop that they were going to get rid of the sport band because I don't like the solo loop. I don't find that to be a very comfortable product. I actually had forgotten until I was just in the website right now. It's not made of

the same material. Solar loop. It is a silicon rubber. Yeah. Rather than fluoro elastomer. Which it still says on the Apple website today, fluoro elastomer. Yeah.

But I'm so happy that they kept it because I agree with you. That design, that is an iconic design, right? The sport band. Yeah. And it's to this day. And it could have been the cheap, fallback, lousy, rubber. Like, so many watches that I bought over the years. You get the band and you're like, oh, it's this plastic band.

It's so bad. And I thought that that was what the sport band would be. And it's not. Like, I like, I really, really like, and I bought a bunch of different bands. The Nike ones are great, too. Yeah, the Nike ones are great. The sport band, it's just a great design. It's a great design.

Vision Pro. I'm picking the Vision Pro. All right. I had it on my list. Yeah. Look. I get it. Right.

I get it. But it is genuinely one of the best computing experiences I've ever had. The Vision Pro is one of the best pieces of hardware Apple has made. And the operating system that runs it is incredibly impressive as well. And if you disconnect that from the fact that it doesn't really have any software or any content and nobody's really supporting it and it costs four times as much as it should and just appreciate this amazing piece of hardware, it is an amazing piece of hardware. It's incredible. You summed up the exact three points, which I was saying, like, it is a device that is chock full of wonder, but limited in all the wrong ways, right?

As you said, developer support, all of the weird edge cases of using it and the price, they hold it back. But every time I use the Vision Pro, which unfortunately is less and less these days, I can't help but marvel at the way that it works. That it actually feels like it's reading your mind at a certain point because you become so comfortable with it. Every time I put it on, I want to find reasons to keep wearing it. The problem is that I struggle to find reasons to put it on or keep wearing it. That's the challenge, right? It just doesn't have, there's nothing in there. But the technology, every time I use it, it is magical.

I cannot believe it when I'm using it. It really is incredible. And if you look at the hardware, if you hold it and look, like, what a kind of incredible piece of hardware it is. So, yeah, I hear you. Yeah. I think it deserves to be. I hear you. It was on my list. I am going to pick the...

Well, I'm down to... I want to leave my quirkiest picks. Okay, here's what I'm going to do. We're going to go back into the old school. There's a whole story about this. Okay. one of the ways that the Apple 2 was a failure originally was because in order to put programs to save or load programs or data, you had to have a cassette tape and then press load or save and then press play and record on a cassette audio cassette tape basically and it would save like be it was incredibly slow. and linear, right?

So, like, there wasn't random access. It was just a tape, so it was linear. And they knew they needed, like, a floppy disk drive. And they found a floppy disk drive from a company, I think it was Shugart, and it was too expensive, and there's no way that they could do it. And Waz looked at the board of the Shugart thing and said, you know, because this is the most typical Waz thing ever.

He was like, there's 22 chips on here. I could do this in two chips. And Steve Jobs, and maybe the most Steve Jobs thing ever, said, what if it's a, Shugart was like, could I not buy the whole disk drive? Could I just buy like the mechanism and not the whole disk drive that you're selling and get a deal? And they're like, I mean, I guess, sure. And so Apple bought this mechanism and then Waws built a controller around it that made the floppy disk for the Apple 2, which was a game changer.

Because now you could stick in a floppy disk and boot it up and load programs almost instantaneously and save data. and it completely changed the game and enabled everything that came after it. And it was, if you talk to people who know, it is Waz's most impressive, perhaps, bit of electrical engineering, the Disc 2. And so I'm going to pick the Apple Disc 2 Waz's Miracle product.

Wow. I don't really know what to say about this one. Sounds like a good pick, Jason. I love it. And more storage picks in the future, please. Thank you so much. Why didn't you pick? You should say, yes,

Why didn't you pick the insider hard drive, which was an actual Apple hard drive? Why didn't you pick that? Yeah, I don't know, because I picked the Just 2 instead. I am picking the MagSafe charger for the Mac. Hey. You can, you know, I don't think it really matters which one, which of the generations. I mean, there was a bad generation, but you'd pick your favorite of each of either. No more yanking your Mac off the table when you kick the cable.

Like, it's a simple thing, but it was so amazing. status light. You got an extra port on your Mac because it wasn't going to be a USBC port when they brought it back again. I like how you basically picked a feature by picking the accessory that goes with the feature. Exactly. Sneaky. I know the rules. It's a good one. I don't really have a lot to say about it, but it's a great piece of technology. Like, it's such a good little thing to have and I'm so happy that it's back with us after it's a demise for a while. Okay. I'm going to pick the iPad Smartfolio.

Okay. Remind me which one this was. Well, I'm picking the modern attaches magnetically on the back and then you can fold and then you've got a little flap that you open and close because I, this is how I use my iPad most of the time and I really love it.

You can trace its lineage back to the, what, the iPad 2 smart cover. This was in the list a couple of times from the upgradions. Yeah, and I was the closest one for me adding because that was, I mean, it was the first smart folio, right?

Where it's like the cover that was also the stand. And, but also it was like, it was so lightweight that it didn't have a back. That was really nice. Yeah, the first one didn't have a back, but it did have like metal magnet clips for the side. Yeah.

But, you know, I had to pick one. And like the modern one that's got the magnet, uses the magnets on the back to create the back plane. and then you've got the front that you flip open. I'm going to pick that one. Yeah. But really, I just want to recognize all of these.

Like, this is one of the sets of accessories that I will not use an iPad without one of these. It's a game changer. Having the ability to prop it up, having the ability to have the screen be covered. It auto sleeps. It auto wakes. So, you know, that is, that's what I'm trying to get at here. The current one is very light and thin and, and, and, and pleasant.

I never really loved those metal things on the sides, but that's what you had to do if you wanted to be single-sided. Finally, they just decided to make it double-sided. But either way, I think it's just a great accessory, and it's a must-have for the iPad, and that's how I use my iPad most of the time. Do you remember the original case for the first one? It was like impossible to get it out.

Oh, with all the flaps. It was so hard to get it out. Like it was. It was all the flaps and everything to get it in and out of that thing. Yeah, not the best. For pick number 40, I'm going for the iPhone 12 Pro or Pro Max. It doesn't matter. Because the things that I'm picking it for, this was the return to flat sides, which we were desperate for by this point.

This is the iPhone 4 design coming back. Stainless steel gold. It's so beautiful. There was a time when I had stainless steel gold. Apple Watch and the iPhone, and I was so happy. It was, they matched so well. It was such a good-looking iPhone. 5G, which I know was a joke at the time.

But is good that they added it, right? It is good to have the extra speed. Now, the millimeter wave, jury's still out, but the actual going for 4G to 5G, great, 5G, 5G, 5G. 5G. MacSafe. This was where MaxSafe, my favorite, came to the iPhone. To me, this made wireless charging worth it.

I wasn't a big wireless charging fan before MagSafe. And also when I was looking at this up on Wikipedia today, I was reminded that this was the first iPhone where the base storage went from 64 to 128. Hmm. It's a pretty nice. Nice little thing to know about. Pretty nice. This episode is brought to you by Fondera, power by Node Wallet.

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we're going in to the final 10 picks of the upgrade at 50 draft Jason pick number 41 is yours what do you got um we talked earlier about how difficult it was to pick apple watches there's one apple watch that is not that difficult to pick and so i'm going to pick it which is the apple watch ultra oh okay uh i i just that they did uh that they did this iteration, it looks really interesting. It appeals to people for whom the Apple Watch standard does not appeal. They allowed to, it allowed the product line to grow, which I think is one of the hallmarks of Tim Cook's era is you don't need to replace product A with product B. You could just sell both and appeal to a broader selection of people, which is, I mean, with the iPhone that always made sense because, you know, they've sold so many iPhones to so many people. The only people left who have not bought an iPhone, you know, what are the reasons and how. do we reach those people. I think the Apple Watch Ultra was a little bit like that as well. I love how it looks. I don't have one because I don't really want to watch that big, but I love how it looks. I think it's a nice addition to the product line. And I think in many ways it is the most standout

of all the Apple Watches because the series line is just sort of doing its thing, but it's not that different from all the way back in the beginning, whereas the Ultra really stood out. So I'm going to pick the Apple Watchelter. My pick is going to be the M1 MacBook Pro. So this was one of the first to Apple Silicon computers, right? And as one of the three. I mean, you can kind of, you know, there was what the Air, the Mini, and the Pro. I'd forgotten that the M1 MacBook Pro still had the touch bar.

That's fun. I'd forgotten about that completely. That's fun. That's just like a fun edition, you know, if you try it out. But I just think, you know, I could have picked the Air or the MacBook Pro here. I wanted to pick the MacBook Pro. The battery life, the performance, this machine showed us the possibility of the M-chips. You know, like we, I think everybody was surprised just how capable these computers were,

what you could get for the power efficiency, just unbelievable. And it converted a lot of people, myself included, back to the Mac, full time again because it was like, well, now I have all of the power efficiency of an iPad with all of the software that I could ever want. Yeah, M1 MacPro.

Great. All right. Very nice. I'm going to go next with the, we can't pick colors, but I'm going to pick the iPhone 17 Pro. Oh, okay. I

think that the aluminum back shell design is very impressive. A variant on the idea of the metal sides is extending it all the way to the back in that new manufacturing technique. I love the two-tone part, the little glass part in the middle, I think is a nice detail.

It's two-tone. It's got the cosmic orange, if you choose to have it in orange. It solves the heat issues that were in the previous model. The cameras are great. There's a lot to love about the iPhone 17 Pro. I think it is going to be my favorite of this sort of like post iPhone 10

iPhones certainly to date it is my favorite I think that they did a really great job with it I could have also picked the 17 here just because they brought so many pro features down into the 17 that's impressive but you know the with the orange and that and that the aluminum shell I think I got to pick the 17 pro I'm going to go with the Apple TV 4K second generation okay this was the one where it came with the good remote.

It wasn't the weird remote. The original Siri remote. Yeah, we got rid of that. Just look, the Apple TV is the best option, right? Like if you, for having any kind of box connected to your TV, it just absolutely is the best option. The remote is a good one. I felt like the Apple TV deserved to be on here

because it is an Apple product that I use every day and don't really think about it. But I appreciate it. I appreciate the features that it has. I like that it's got a thread radio in it so it can act as like a hub for my smart home stuff. I appreciate that

it's got EARC and the HDMI 2.1 stuff so I can very easily have my Sonos system attached to it. I really like the Apple TV 4K. It does exactly what I needed to do. It doesn't get in my way

and the remote is good. Okay. Sounds good. Good. With my next pick, I am going to pick the magic keyboard with touch ID. Wow. Okay. Where Apple brought touch ID to the Mac. And it's a good keyboard, the magic keyboard.

But the touch ID, I mean, means you can also just tear it apart and use that touch ID sensor anywhere that you want. Yep. But that they did it and that I'm especially thinking about the fact that they did it for the IMAX. and they made all the color-matched keyboards, which is totally unnecessary, and I love that they did that. But good keyboard with adding touch ID on the Mac, which I think is a real big plus.

I want to shout it out. And it was either this or maybe like the extended keyboard too, which I don't have as much fondness for as a bunch of people I know do. But like, this is a Mac keyboard that I think is good and adds that important feature so the people who are not using a laptop can do the touch ID unlock. So I like it.

And the colors on the IMAC didn't hurt. Didn't hurt. Oh, man, I have a list of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got to pick three final things and I'm just not sure what is the right stuff to pick from here. I'm pleased that my list isn't as long as yours.

Yeah. I'm going to go, I mean, we've spoken about this product line a lot, but I think that the OG deserves a shoutout and that is the AirPods, just the original AirPods. Okay. That design seemed so ridiculous

at first. Those stems are real long. The real long stems. It's like, I'm not sure about these, but very quickly, the convenience of no wires made you forget

all about how ridiculous they looked and they eventually ended up becoming iconic in their own way, right? They became incredibly popular. Not a, Immediately. It was like, I think it might have been towards the second Jan or whatever, and they just absolutely took off as a product.

But, you know, it didn't take very long for you to accept the downsides of that product because the convenience level was so high. I'm going with the AirPods. All right. We talked about the IMac Pro being part of a parallel, kind of a parallel universe. Yeah. I have another product from a parallel universe. Now, Steve Jobs came back to Apple and he killed a lot of products. And one of the products that he killed was actually getting a little bit of traction.

And there's lots of reasons that they needed to kill it. And I get it. It had a Johnny Ive design. Yep. It was really potentially the start of something interesting. And you could even maybe see the genesis of something like the iPad and the iPad. and the iPad in a keyboard in this product. It's one of a kind.

And it's not its fault that it was part of a failing product category that was championed by John Scully and that Steve Jobs was more than happy to kill. And with all due honor to the Newton MessagePad 2000, I'm going to pick the e-mate. Oh, I absolutely thought you were going to go for the Newton. You used to set me up here? No, the E-Mate, which was the Newton laptop.

Yep. And an amazing design, weird plastic stuff. It's Johnny I've doing weird plastic design stuff. It was designed for education. It had a pen so that you could do the Newton stuff, but it also had a keyboard. Really interesting product. And again, I think just wrong place, wrong time.

So yeah, the E-Mate 300, I guess, technically. But like, it was, it was a really interesting product. Like, what could we do if we built a laptop based on this super lightweight operating system instead of the Mac? And I don't know. There's a world where that leads places. And I'm certain that it was, you know, even though it made sense to kill all of those things. boy what an interesting product that had to get thrown out when they shut down the Newton. We had these in my school for any kids that broke their hand or wrist,

and so they could continue to do their work without being able to write so they would type on them. There you go. That is my experience with the e-mate. The green translucent thing. Yeah, yeah, because it's Johnny Ive. Yeah. My penultimate pick, I don't think this is going to win me a lot of points. but it means something to me.

iPhone 3G. Oh. For two things that it had. GPS and 3G. Made a massive difference to the iPhone experience. So, I mean, the GPS, I got mine before I went on holiday

to Paris the next day. And it was like my first kind of like trip with a partner kind of as an adult, which is the two of us. So being able to navigate around the city using GPS was really helpful. And I was very grateful for that.

But the 3G connectivity was a huge deal for just general usability of the iPhone. That, like, it could load all the data you needed significantly faster than the connection that was in the original. And while not unique to this device, but important alongside was the App Store. So I think the App Store launched the day before the iPhone 3G. and obviously it was a bit more capable than the original and so you know gets a little get to a rub there but not bonus points as such

but yeah I'm going with the iPhone 3G even though the design not so great I at least appreciated that they embraced the plastic and just went with it and it was nice to hold at least all right I reached my last pick and how hard is it for this pick we're gonna take you back to 2004 back to

an event that I attended and that you have picked the primary product for from that event, the iPod photo. Oh, okay. At that event, California Theater in San Jose. Bono and the Edge were there to unveil the U-2 special edition iPod. What a weird iPod. That's just a weird product. I mean, it's just an iPod in red and black.

The colors of U-2, I guess, colors of that album. But it's like, why didn't they do more of that? You know, why was it just you two that got that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there was another product introduced there, Mike. Another Apple product, hardware product was introduced there. One that doesn't get talked about enough, especially for a product specifically referred to on stage by Steve Jobs as a revolutionary new product.

I'm picking iPod socks, Mike. Oh, that's not what I thought you're going for. Are you getting it yet? Are you getting it yet? it. These are socks. You put your iPod in them and they were real. We thought he was kidding, but they were real and they sold them and you could put your iPod in a sock.

And so with my final selection for Apple at 50, I choose one of Steve Jobs's less beloved revolutionary new products, the iPod socks, which did 100% of what they were promised to do, which is be a sock around your iPod. I thought this was going to be the iPod high-fi. When was the iPod High-Fi? Because that was on my list.

Okay. I did not have that on my list. I decided to go with iPod. I had it on my list in honor of you, because you had and used one for so long. I don't know if you still do. I don't use it anymore. I have a couple of son-no speakers, but it's still around.

It's still back. It's right back behind you now. I was considering the iPhone pocket here as my final pick. Ah, yeah. See, we were thinking on the same lines, I think. But I'm going to pick something that is true to my heart. I love this thing. I have one behind me sitting next to my iPod Mini.

Yeah. the original iPod shuffle. Okay. So the stick of gum. Stick of gum. It had a lanyard. Yep. Amazing.

And like the Apple Pencil, had a USB pull under the cap. Yep. But what was so great for someone in school at this time is you could kind of partition this thing and use it as a USB stick. And so I had some music and also my coursework for school on my iPod shuffle. good times. Like you could put documents on it.

It was great. I loved it. I have my original iPod shuffle and it's dead and like it's unrevivable at this point, which is so sad because I would love to see what files I had on that thing. And the packaging was so great too. It was like green packaging and it was like you opened it up and it was like suspended in the plastic.

iPod shuffle first gen is the last product. Yeah, it's a fun product. Like I said, I like the second generation one better. But it was a very fun little product. Nice idea. So Upgradians, there is a link in the show notes called Who Had the Best Draft List. And you can go in and vote.

But I think for the ease of voting, we're each going to list now our picks. So, Jason, can you very quickly run down your list of 25? Sure. I picked the original iPhone, the late 2010 MacBook Air, the Laser Rider, the first generation power book, the Apple 2E, the fourth generation iPod, the IMAG4, a second generation Apple Pencil, MacBook Neo, AirPods Pro, the iPad Pro M4, Magic keyboard for iPad Pro, Macintosh SE30, iPhone 4, iPod shuffle, second generation, Apple Watch Ultra, iPhone 17 Pro, magic keyboard for Mac with touch ID, Emate 300, and iPod Sox.

And I picked the iPod Mini, the M2 MacBook Air, iPhone 6 plus, the original iPad, the iPod, the original iPod Nano, the iPhone 10, the IMAG3, the first generation Apple Pencil, the Mac 128K, AirPods Pro 2, iPad Mini 2, the Apple Watch Series 4, the polycarbonate MacBook from 2006, the iPod Video, the first generation iPod Touch, the IMac Pro, the Magic Trackpad, 2, Vision Pro, the MagSafe, charger for Mac, iPhone 12 Pro, M1 MacBook Pro, Apple TV 4K second generation, the first generation AirPods, the iPhone 3G, and the iPod shuffle. So you can find in the show notes a link to vote, and we'll reveal the results next week

as to who had the best draft list of the two of us. Sure, but they're both good and it's all just in fun. Yeah, they're all good, they're all good lists, you know? We're all good lists. Yeah. They're all good lists. Thank you so much for listening to this special episode of Upgrade. If you would like to send us in your feedback, which I'm sure you have some, you can go to UpgradeFeedback.com.

I can't believe we didn't list. Thank you to our members who support us for Upgrade Plus. This week, we're going to maybe touch on some things we didn't pick and have some very important follow-up of a discovery that I made by searching through some DMs. Some real forensics happening. in Mike's chat. You can find a video version at this show by going to YouTube and searching for the Upgrade podcast.

I would like to thank our sponsors of this week's episode. That is to find people over at Fondera, Steam Clock, Squarespace and delete me. But most of all, I would like to thank you for listening and we'll be back next week

over a regular episode of Upgrade. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow. Goodbye, Mike Hurley.