Upgrade - 613: I Know I Picked Too Many iPods

Episode Date: April 27, 2026

From Relay, this is Upgrade, episode 613 for April 27th, 2026. This episode is brought to you by FitBod, Mercury Weather, Claude, and Steam Clock. My name is Mike Hurley, and I am joined at full volume by Jason Snell. I'm at full volume because I'm not recording in the spare bedroom today. Oh, I see, yes. Well, not yet, but this may all get erased by breaking news later that we have to record a new version of the opening in your In your spare bedroom, don't wake the baby up, hello. Surely it can't happen again.

This is upgrade. Surely it can't happen again. It can't happen again. Not for 15 years. I have a snail talk question that comes in from Andrew who wants to know. Jason, do you listen to the niche British Restis History series, like the recent 1975-to-78 masterpiece? If so, do you enjoy them?

I mean, of course I do. I loved the Britain-in-1974 series. Yes. And I'll tell you why. One of the, okay, it's the rest of history. One of the reasons that I love the rest of history is because it is storytelling, right? It is, I don't know if I, I assume I haven't said this publicly, but I realized that they haven't done a series about the British Civil War. And Tom Holland mentioned this great book about the British Civil War, the English Civil War, sorry, English Civil War.

I think it was just an English Civil War at that point. Anyway, so I got the book. I did an inner library loan, and I got the book. I was like, well, I'll just read this book since they haven't done it. And what I realized is this is the sort of book that Tom Holland reads and then turns into great podcast storytelling. And it's a very long book with very small print. And I'm not going to read that. I'm not.

I'm not going to do that. I want Tom Holland, a trained historian, or Dominic Sandbrook, a trained historian, to read about the English Civil War and then tell an engaging story about it. So this is what I love about the rest of history. In fact, I might even say that something like the niche rise of Margaret's, Thatcher, 1975 to 1978 series that they just did, is exactly the kind of thing I like from the rest is history

because they're not just telling me a story, but instead of it being a familiar story where I don't know many of the details, it's an unfamiliar story where I know none of the details. And other than, I mean, the very broadest, like, I know who Margaret Thatcher is, right?

So I know where she ends up. But I find that delightful because it really is about telling the stories and all of the little detail, little weird details that they, uh, that they sprinkle in along the way, especially since this is Dominic's area of specialty.

He knows a lot of very, he's obviously over the course of 20, 30 years of, of his, uh, of his professional research into this. There are certain stories that have flagged his interest as like, this is a ludicrous story. And he's, he talks about all of those stories, right? Because he knows those are the funniest, weirdest story. So I love it. That's a great story.

Basically, Britain in the 70s was an absolute disaster. Like, it was disastrous. Yeah, I didn't realize how bad. It was so bad. It gets. So I just listened to the section this morning where the one minister who can't be fired because the majority is too small, Ben, he has a great scheme where he's going to give money to workers who are living in a factory that has been shut down and they're going to make car radiators and orange juice. in the same factory. And there's a moment where they pause and they're like, there must be some reason, right, why those two things manufacturing-wise, and then they move on from it. And it's just like, I love those details.

That's so ridiculous. It's amazing. Yeah. So I had previously recommended, you know, like when people ask us, like, what series? I had recommended the Britain and 74 series where they, this is just setting up the year in 1974 where we had three general elections in a year. three of them. That is, that is a sign of a functioning democracy. Imagine the presidential election

three times in one calendar the year. We had that. And I was really hoping, I was very much looking forward to them returning to talk about kind of like the rest of everything that happens because Britain only gets worse from this point. Turns out. Into when Margaret Thatcher comes in and makes things worse and then kind of controls them. Not necessarily in ways that are good for everyone, but kind of gets. Britain back on a path. It definitely puts into context the arrival of Margaret Thatcher, right? It's like, how could that happen? And it's like, oh, I see. Yeah. And so I was really looking

forward to them to it because they did it in 2024. They've just followed up in 26. And in classic racist history style, they finished the series now. They're going to do more next year. And Margaret Thatcher is still not the prime minister. Not the prime minister. Yeah, that's the way to do it. You've got to leave them wanting more. Yeah. And I do. And I'm looking forward to it. It's the best show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the best podcast around. So good. So I put links in the show notes to those two seasons if people want to go check them out. If you have a snow talk question of your own that you would like to send in to help us open out a show or open up a show or do whatever. Please go to Upgradefeedback.com and send in your snow talk question. We have some follow up, Jason. So last time, the main important thing of last week's episode was our Apple at 50 draft. Clearly. And we gave people the opportunity to vote on who would. who had the best list. And I knew how this vote was going to go, but it didn't go exactly how I thought.

With 75% of respondents saying that you had the better list, and mine was 25%. I don't think that it's that different, you know, but sure, I was picking from the heart, so I'm the real winner. You made people have to choose. It might be that 75% of people think that I very barely beat you. that's a beautiful way of putting it it yeah right so it's okay

it's the case but it doesn't mean that they think it was a blowout it just means that a lot of people thought I won that's all that means and I don't care because I was picking from the heart I know I picked too many iPods but you know what I didn't pick up as a print I didn't put a printer on my list but somehow we got that on there and I actually have a question that came

from Steve who wrote and said any Apple list about the laser writer is not an Apple list that product and what it catalyzed had an impact on society that rivals the iPhone. Thank you, Jason. I'm not sure if I agree with that part.

You'd know how good that print. It's okay. That's why you didn't pick the laser writer, but I did. Yeah. Do you agree with Steve's take? It had a huge impact. It did. On the computer industry, certainly.

On society, maybe somewhat, rivaling the iPhone, I would say probably, I wouldn't go that far, but still pretty good, pretty good. I appreciated you attempting to see if you could get to Steve's point of view, But you couldn't get there. I wanted to see how far down the road I could go before I said,

nope, I can't go any further. And that's how far is like, it did have an impact on society. What's this next part? Rivals the iPhone? Well, what does rivals mean? Is it? No, no.

Rivals and loses. And obviously we got a bunch of inevitable, I can't believe nobody picked this. And I wanted to just read a couple of these because they're funny to me. Thomas says, I can't believe nobody picked the E-Mac. I can. Me too. pick it. The Emac is weird.

It wasn't even, I mean, it's interesting at all, but like, it's just a G3, IMAC with a G4 in it, kind of, and for education, but then they sold it and like, whatever. I mean, again, it, it, you can have it, Thomas. It's on your list. It's your number one

draft pick. Congratulations. With my compliments. But I, I feel like, to me, the fact that we picked both the G3 and the G4 is like, that's enough. You know, the EMAC, I don't know, man. I don't know if it deserves to be on there. Pick the e-mate instead.

Yeah, exactly. We picked the e-mate. Be happy about it. And then Eric wrote and said, I'm a bit sad to see the original Apple Airport not get its place on any lists. It wasn't the first wireless router, but it was definitely the attainable wireless access point as an individual and an inflection point. Yeah. So historically important, and I thought about it, the UFO-shaped airports, the kind of gray one and then the white one, were... really impactful. And when I was trying to think of Apple hardware products that were not,

you know, computers, uh, but accessories, that's one that I thought about. And in the end, I just decided they were so, they were kind of unreliable. They burned out. That I decided it left enough of a, a bad taste in my mouth that I, I couldn't pick it, but I thought about picking it. I'll put it that way. I mean, the airport, that original airport was so, it was groundbreaking, but it was also so early. But those who don't remember, like the number one mode that you would use to use that airport is you'd it had a it had a modem in it so you'd plug it into your telephone and when a device came on the Wi-Fi and wanted to get to the internet

the airport would dial your ISP and then you could be on the internet that's how long ago this was I mean you could also put it on Ethernet and I had DSL at this point but like that was yeah that was that was that it was long ago Anyway, it was a huge deal, but I just decided somebody's, one of the suggestions we got from somebody was the add-on card for airport that added airport to Apple's early airport capable laptops. It didn't used to come built in. You had to like flip open the keyboard and slide this card in in order to get Wi-Fi support on your laptop. Because who needs, only some people need Wi-Fi. But we didn't pick either of those things.

So, yeah. I have a couple of things in the airport. I put a link in the show notes to the Wikipedia page. One, the original airports, the UFO ones. I'd forgotten how big the Apple logo was on those

and it looks honestly ridiculous to me, even though the design was cool at the time. And it reminded me of the airport express, which was just basically the very big looking power adapter and that was a cool product.

That was interesting. Also burned out alive, but yes. I'm sure. I'm sure they all did eventually. Yeah. And then I had forgotten that the,

because in my mind, when I think of the airport now, I think of that kind of like big white tower one. Yeah. I'd forgotten that was a time capsule. That was the time capsule. The non-time capsule airports were smaller. Yeah, I just, I think of just the little,

they look like little plastic Mac minis kind of. So there you go. And an anonymous person wrote in and said, You'll be pleased to know that the iMac Pro continues to live on at Apple in every mail room. It always makes me smile when I see them. I would love to know what's going on there. Is that what this means? Post room. Yeah, this person had written in and it clearly indicated to me in the language that they spoke, because it was more than this, that they were writing him from the UK, I believe. But it says postroom and I just, I code switched to mail room for you and everybody else.

That makes more sense. I was thinking, like, is this like post-production of video or something like that? But in the mail, it sounds like a thing that could totally live in the mailroom. IMAX, though, you know? We could have just had 5K iMac. I don't know if we needed the pro. I don't know. It's like when you would see like Tim Cook touring facility isn't there be like IMAX running windows like hanging around over the top of robots and stuff that's where it reminds me off.

Now I have a completely unrelated question and this is going back to us talking about the MacBook Neo a couple of weeks ago. Holly wrote in and said with the success of the MacBook Neo causing potential shortages of the Bind A18 Pro do you expect this to impact other planned product launches that may use

the same chip? For example, Could the new Apple TV box that have used that chip as well be delayed? It's possible. I would think that Apple would be planning out their chip usage for eventualities like this. Does it need to be an A18 Pro? Could it be an A18? Could it be from a 17? Could it be from some other bin?

Like, I think they've got options there. So I would imagine. But it's possible, like if they really, again, I have a hard time believing that they didn't have a contingency plan for the MacBook Neo being a big hit because it certainly was a real possibility. And so I don't think they would be surprised. And that makes me think that it would be unlikely that they would say, oh, no, we had planned on using all those in this Apple TV.

And now we can't release it. But I don't know, maybe it's possible. Yeah. I would think they would be better at planning than that. You know, I can't get over how often I'm seeing the MacBook Neo now, just like in videos and people just using them. Yeah. It's just not a big deal.

And it's like, oh, I still really want one, Jason. Hmm. You have no use for it. I have zero use for it. But I still want one. This episode is brought to you by FitBod. It can be hard to change your fitness level. You can feel like something you have to climb up a big hill to do, essentially.

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we were giving our kind of initial reactions and some thoughts that we had. It was a snap. Yeah. Sudden surprise. podcast for those who hadn't read that much into it. We were done and Mike was home and then we and then the Tim Cook news happened. So we got something. So we got it together. And I was very happy that we got something together because imagine how hilarious that would have been. For that being, just sitting out there for a week, the draft. But here we are. So after a week

more to think about it, how are you feeling now about this? Is there any areas that are interesting to you, exciting to you, concerning. Where are you? I, you know, I'm kind of interested in, it's been interesting to see everybody's takes on this. I find it very funny that there's definitely a certain portion of the internet. I mean, it happens every time, right? It's almost like a Rorschach test of the content creators out there who are like, how can I make this be a reason to repeat my worldview again, right?

Or, right? And I've seen some really amazing takes that are like, hey, there's going to be a new CEO at Apple. So let me complain about my, you know, personal whatever it is. My, you know, my love of weird Chinese Android phones and why they aren't available more broadly. and making that about John Ternis somehow. Like, okay. Like, there's a bunch of those I've seen. I've seen a bunch of, uh,

kind of like one last chance to complain about Tim Cook and his, you know, his, uh, his treatment of the Chinese government and of the Trump administration, which, you know, fair,

fair do, like, get your, get your licks in. Um, it's just interesting to see the different reactions that people have to it. Um, also the, the, the, the, the glee in some areas where it's like, oh, finally with not with Tim Cook not there, things will be different, which, you know, I also think is maybe a little overheated because there, he's, first off, he's still going to be there, uh, as the executive chairman. And second, this is a many year plan. And John turnus has been a major part of Apple all this time. And while I'm enthusiastic for the opportunity for change, uh, as the executive chairman. Uh, as second, I think it would be a mistake to assume that, especially that everything you've disliked about Apple, it's like Alan Die again, right?

Which is like, you can be hopeful for change and think that this is an opportunity for change without kind of loading all of your personal frustrations onto this one change and thinking that this is the one that's going to solve it because I think you're going to end up disappointed because there's going to be way more continuity than you would expect. So I don't know, a lot of it has just been human nature.

The spread of reactions has not been surprising. In fact, I was amused that there was one piece that I saw that was very much like, I'm disappointed that everybody's just been praising Tim Cook, but I'm going to be critical of him. And I thought, well, did you not look hard for the, because everybody's been praising Tim Cook. how I would phrase it. But sure, again, get your take in, which was a, that was a completely different take about other reasons.

I did, you know, I thought the guy who wrote Apple and China wrote an opet in the New York Times that I thought was kind of interesting, where he was essentially restating his thesis, which is that, you know, Apple, for Apple's being successful also built up China's manufacturing capacity. I would argue maybe he takes it a little too far when he makes that argument. He, he, it's much more dramatic to say sort of like Apple made China, which is not true, but Apple helped. It's, that is true.

Apple helped, but I think he overstates it sometimes. I think, to make his point more, seem more broad and more important. But I do think that that was interesting. And then, of course, he also makes the point that I think is really well made in his book, that one of the challenges that is that in, in priming Apple for success, Tim Cook has also made Apple incredibly vulnerable for, in terms of

its reliance on China in the supply chain. It's used of Chinese markets to grow the business, but, you know, that's dangerous too in case there's something cut off there. And then he made the point, I think, that I haven't seen anywhere else, that he's never, that Tim Cook basically doesn't go to Taiwan, even though Taiwan semiconductor is his chip supplier because it would offend China. So he doesn't go. I thought that was interesting, too.

So there's some interesting bits in there. Yeah. But, you know, it's been interesting to see the reaction. And I'm glad that we got to be in on the on the forefront of that. I mean, we literally recorded that right after. And then I sat down and I wrote a couple thousand words about it. And then I got to watch everybody else do their thing. Yeah, I think for me, I kind of have a few different feelings going on.

I agree of everything you said that, right, like it is very funny to watch like all of the hammers and nails. that people are using, right? Like, you have this hammer, and so this is just a nail for you to hit on. And I think if I am to have a hammer and nail, it is that I just like it when interesting things happen, because then we can talk about them. Like, I remember when this was all breaking last year

about it seeming like that we were really speeding up towards some kind of retirement message, like with the FT thing, and then with subsequent reporting from Mark German, I was hoping it would happen because I thought it would be interesting to cover and so I still I feel like the level of interestingness

I actually think is higher than I had imagined like now we're here it's like oh it's interesting and this has happened now we have a few months of speculation and then things are going to start to change from that point because there will be changed like there will not be rapid, massive change to Apple.

Like, Ternus is going to make a mark, and then things will slowly start to change from there. But this will absolutely come September 1st be a change, an inflection point for the company, because he is a person with his own opinions, and he's going to have them. And, like, you know, so people say, like, oh, he's been there forever. You know, he's going to, I think, you know, he's going to just do whatever Tim wanted to do. And I don't think that is completely accurate, like being part of the. the machine doesn't mean he agrees with everything that everybody wants to do. And now instead of just being on the team, he's now the guy in charge. He's now the guy in charge. I think you could probably

say that probably over the last five years to six months, whatever, since he became SVP to now, he's obviously been increasingly involved. As part of his training and run up to being the CEO, increasingly involved in this process, but still in the end, it's Tim Cook's decision. I would say that probably since this, probably since December, assuming that that's when everything was finally just decided, that any decisions that are kind of long-term decisions that Tim Cook has been bringing John Turnus into the loop about if he wasn't already. But you're right. It's going to continue to transition over the next few months until September.

and then we'll go from there. And there will be change. I think the question is just sort of like everybody, it's very easy to overload all your dreams and hopes and put him in a box and think, well, John Ternis is going to come in and solve all these problems. And there is going to be more continuity

than you might expect because he is on the senior management team, but he will also make changes because he's not in that same role. Both of those things can be true. I think, oh, I wanted to mention another thing that I thought was really funny is that there was that one report out there about how like, you know, what was he involved with and he was really into the iPad stuff and making the iPad more usable.

And then, but he was also one of the people behind the touchbar. And I've seen that thrown up as like, ah, failure, the touchbar. And I'm just going to say it again, he's the hardware guy. The touchbar hardware is kind of impressive. The problem with the touchbar was not the hardware. It was the fact that the software group

didn't bother with the touch bar. bar. And I'm going to, that is a hill I will die on, is that the touch bar could have been better hardware and they could have iterated on it. But what I find interesting about the touch bar is that it was an interesting piece of hardware that was you could see the software group run away from it. Like they never did anything to make it better when it could have been much more interesting. They just didn't bother.

And that to me, I thought that was one of the most visible examples of one part of Apple just not playing ball with the other part. Where, like, literally, you could see the hardware group thought this was worth doing. The software group didn't. So they didn't. And that was a bad bit of management who, you know, on Tim Cook's level, right, that they could, they, they shipped a hardware feature on their laptop that their software group didn't want to do anything with. And so it just laid there until they finally got rid of it. Like, I'm sorry.

I just, and that's, to me, that's always a sign of, of an argument that is. is weak, is that it's somebody who's just cherry picking something that they don't really have all the facts about, or they want to just use it because they want to throw that in there at John Turnus. That is a much more complicated story. But sure, fine. I have two areas that I want to get your take on for potential areas of change. One is the app store. Do we think there will be any change to the app store and the kind of the business at the app store? And two, do you think there will be any change to how Apple events are conducted?

App Store, what I would say is this is an opportunity for a change in policy if a change in policy is something that John Turnus wants to do. I think it's very clear,

and we can go back to all of those court transcripts, right? It's very clear that Phil Schiller even made the argument that maybe they should live up to what Steve Jobs had said, which was we're really just here to cover our own expenses. And once they're making a billion dollars on the app store, maybe they should start easing some of the rules of the app store

or some of their cut of the revenue from the app store. And it's clearly that somebody, whether it was the CFO or whether it was Tim Cook, somebody was like, no, maximize revenue. That's what we're here to do now, which is not what the original idea was as sold by Steve Jobs. And Schiller was like, maybe we should, you know, know, say we've got our cut and the rest of this is to the benefit of our developers. Now, that's a, you know, that's a decision that if Tim Cook didn't make it directly, he allowed it to be the decision, right? The CFO was like, no. And Tim Cook's like, all right, I'm going to

go with the CFO here. It's still his decision. Well, that's an area where John Turner's, we don't know. Maybe John Turner's in the background was like, I don't love this. This has gotten this. Maybe he's making a lot of the arguments we're making, which is like, is, have we gone down this path too far? Have we been too aggressive? And are we courting just more trouble from all of these other groups, all these other regulators when we're doing fine? And that like, like the best thing here is not to have this hard rule, but to like back off. Maybe, maybe not. But I would say that it's unlikely that Tim Cook, who allowed this decision to happen in the first place is going to backtrack.

But John Turnus could say it's a new era and we're going to make some changes. And he has the ability to do that, I would say, in a way that Tim Cook is just not going to do. So, you know, in terms of the App Store, that's what I think. It's like, there's an opportunity for change here because the old regime is gone. And so the new regime, I know it's a lot of the same people, but like the boss is different. And this is what I've been saying all along. It's a lot easier to get the new boss to say, let's change some things than it is for the old boss to say, hey, some of those decisions I made in the past, they were bad and I'm going to change them, right? It's just it's easier for a new person to say that.

Because I wonder if you're coming into this role, do you want to now enter yourself into the ongoing legal problems that are just going to continue? for all of history, because no one's going to give this up. Like, it's a good kind of area for governments to attack. Do you just kind of hold up your hands and be like, forget about it? And also, if you're a hardware guy, you know, I mean, if he was involved in Vision Pro, say, we all know what happened there. Like, we all saw that developers weren't interested. And if you have ideas for new platforms in the future, would it be a good?

good idea to maybe try and make developers a bit happier with you again? Exactly. This is obviously something that is not lost on them. Like I do not believe that Apple are not aware of this, right? Because one, we're all talking about it all the time and I know that they pay attention to the media, but also they know more than anyone that developers clearly were not interested in that platform. And so what?

Now you can never make another platform? Like, you're basically, it has to be piggybacking on the iPhone forever. Like, that's not a good idea. Like, you need, I believe that they need to try and incentivize developers. So maybe you just take this as your time to just do that. I don't know. Also, I think, I mean, because you could, I'm sensitive to the argument that the first thing that the new CEO does is come in and announce a policy that has the effect of decreasing revenue, right? Yeah.

I can understand. And I've seen this argument. It's like, well, they'll never do that because that's the last thing that the new CEO would want to do. But my counter argument would be you could also say that settling a bunch of lawsuits, reducing friction with the EU, solving some political pressure in the U.S., and also dealing with this in other regions, creating maybe a single worldwide Apple policy that lowers the, lowers the tension, lowers the, the scrutiny being placed on Apple in this moment is also beneficial to Apple, right? That's my counter argument, is that it's not all, I would argue, in fact, that one of the reasons we got here is because Apple's executives over-emphasized the value of, like, app store revenue and some aspects of app store policy and felt like they were worth more than all the stories in the media, all the scrutiny from regulators. And I don't believe that's true.

I think Apple makes so much money from so many different areas that a small reduction, not a vacancy of all that revenue, a small reduction in one small revenue line amid all the other revenue lines in exchange for reduced legal encumbrance and scrutiny and maybe a better relationship with your third-party developers that you're trying to cultivate because you're the new boss and you can turn the page now especially.

Like, maybe that's a better, maybe that's a better story. But he may also, like, we don't know. He may also feel like that's an area that he doesn't have as much power over. That, like, that's not where he wants to spend his political capital is on,

um, is on app store policy because he's got bigger fish to fry. That's also possible. And then what about Apple events then? In terms of events, yeah. Um, um,

again, I mean, I would say anything's possible. I think you're going to need to see I mean, I'd be interested to see what Phil Schiller thinks. Huh. Because Phil Schiller's in charge of events and what Greg Josriak thinks because he's in charge of product marketing. They have experimented with a bunch of different ways of doing it.

I think, I think the truth is that the only events that we can count on are the iPhone and WWDC. I think they're probably pretty happy with them. Being there they are production wise. Yeah, that they're all kind of pre-produced and completely controlled. And yet they still can invite the press or the developers or both to those events.

And then they're, yes, they're just playing a video, but they also have kind of an in-person element. And I think they're probably pretty happy with it. So, you know, John Ternis could say, hey, is there any way for us to go back to, streaming it live, but having it be sort of like a couple of hosts and we talk about some stuff and then we throw it to videos. And you know, you could do that, but what's the benefit? And there's a lot of different downsides of that. So anything could happen. My gut feeling is, is that the way events are

changing for Apple is that you're going to see more things like the MacBook Neo, where there's a press event somewhere and there's a video and there's a hands-on. But it's not, you know, that was an experience, I know, but like that's what that was. It was an event that happened for press and influencers and things. But there was also just a press release and a product video and then they moved on. So I think that I doubt there will be much immediate change in that area. But I do think that they're always thinking of tinkering with the format because they just want to get the most publicity and exposure. But for the new iPhone, I think the way they've done it is probably the way that they're

they want to do it from now on. So Tim Cook is remaining around, right? He's, while taking the role of executive chairman is also involved in some day-to-day operation of the business, right? Like, the political stuff is a level of day-to-day operation. So, like, he's not gone.

Right. How long do you think he's, do you think this is, I mean, we'll get to some stuff that he said later on about being long term, but do you think this is expected to be a long-term? long term post. I think he'll be there at least five years.

At least five. Okay. And so in that regard, what do you think about like, is he going to actually be able to let go? Or like, is it going to be hard for Ternus to, like the previous,

he's right there. You know, the guy's right there. Well, I, okay, let me frame this differently. If you're the CEO

for 15 years, yeah, and then you've got your protege that you're going to bring along and now you're going to be the executive chairman, are you going to be able to let it go? I think that's a good question. Is Tim Cook going to be disciplined enough

to allow John Ternis to have the space to be his own CEO while focusing on the areas where he needs to specifically focus as executive chairman? I'm going to say he's going to have no problem with it because he's Tim Cook and he strikes me as an incredibly disciplined person who wants to give his successor the space to learn. in the job. And so that's the difference there, right? It's like, I think it's a perfectly

reasonable thing to say, I don't know about this setup, but I think about Tim Cook and everything we know about Tim Cook. And I just don't think Tim Cook is going to be meddling in John Turnus's business. I think he will, they will be clear boundaries about like what he needs to care about as a board member, as the executive chairman of the board versus what the CEO will be doing. And, you know, my history, and on the my one nonprofit board that I was on is the job of the board is not to be the micromanager of the CEO

or the executive director in our case. It's not. It's to be representing the shareholders, due diligence, advice, but it's not like the org chart, you know, the board is a human being that the CEO reports to. That's not quite how it works. And I think that,

I just have a great deal of confidence that part of this is all about Tim Cook giving John Turnus the best runway being available for advice. But I just can't imagine that Tim Cook is like, yeah, I'm going to micromanage that guy. I'm really going to be in charge. I just, I can't see it. Yeah, no, it's a really good point about the discipline. You know, it's like how I wonder, like, you know, what it will feel like for Turnus and also that there are elements where it's going to be odd, right? He wants to make a change, but then Turner has to go sell it to India and China. It's like, what is, what is that going to be like, you know? But I guess that the same as anybody working for the CEO, which Tim is going to have this strange role where he is

the executive chairman of the board, but is also kind of like a member of the team, depending on what is needed of him at any one time. But yes, I think you've made a really great point that Tim Cook made that decision, so he's going to stick by it. And then it's just like to John turnus to be able to feel confident enough in himself that he will be able to tell Tim what he's doing on what he's not doing. Yeah, and also, let's be clear, when they make that announcement that says Tim Cook is going to still be involved

in dealing with, you know, global issues, et cetera, et cetera. And when Donald Trump comes out, we miss this part, right? Like, the next day. Yeah. And says, oh, I'm going to miss Tim Apple. Cook, all the more. But I'll still be around

and I'll still talk to him. Like, this is what, this is literally the message Apple is sending. And I've seen people say, like, Oh, can John Turnus? We may get to some of this later. Can John Turner really avoid dealing with all the political issues and all of that? It's like, well, this is what Apple's setting up here is. This announcement is very literally like world leaders continue to call Tim Cook.

That's what it is. And if they call John Turnus, they're going to get Tim Cook, right? It's going to be like, can I speak to John Turtis? Yeah, this is Tim. Yeah. That's going to be it, right? Like, that's how it's going to be for those world leaders. That's his bailiwick.

And not only is that meant to insulate. Ternus, but it's also, so when I hear people say, oh yeah, but what's going to stop Donald Trump from calling up John Ternis, the answer is going to be, because Donald Trump doesn't want to talk to John Ternis, he has a personal relationship with Tim Cook. And he knows Tim Cook, and he knows Tim Cook's the person he's

supposed to talk to, so he'll continue to talk to him. That's the idea there. I agree. And I, you know, like I'm seeing an audience code he mentioned too. I do, and I'll point this out again, I do think people are over-indexing on Trump in this scenario. Like, it's not just him. It's, no, it's China. It's every country around the world.

And it's India. Yes. And it is, it is all of that where, because Cook has got those relationships. Yes. And that is, I mean, Trump is the one that's, especially for Americans, the most visible. Sure. But there are lots. And that is a whole part of the business that, honestly, not only does Cook have the contacts there, but it would take years more for Ternus to get up to speed with them.

And I'm sure that's part of the deal. But like, that's one of the reasons this has happened. is that Tim Cook can take that load when he's learning other stuff. And then gradually he will learn it over time so that he can take it over from Tim. It's like in 15 years time, if John Turner's had a good stewardship of the company and has built relationships with the world leaders, I expect this to go exactly the same for the next person. Because it's relationships. And Apple has the ability to manage these relationships effectively. And it's like as the leaders change, I don't expect him to continue working with new people.

But for as long as they remain, and in some parts of the world, that could be a very long time for some of these people. It makes sense to have some level of continuity for a period of time until Ternus is like in that world too. And it's also like if you have the ability to not have to give him everything to deal with on day one, then yeah, you should do that. That's the whole idea here. This episode is brought to you by Mercury Weather. Mercury Weather is a thoughtfully designed, I will say beautiful, weather app that shows all essential weather details at a glance. It has a wonderful, colorful interface that dynamically adapts to conditions with a warm orange palette on a sunny day, icy tones on a cold day, or a deep blue on a rainy night.

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model is simple. No ads, no selling of user data. Mercury is available on iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch and Mac. You download it, use the standard features for free, and upgrade to Mercury premium to unlock everything. Go to Mercury Weather dot app slash upgrade to download Mercury Weather now and use that link so they'll know that you came to them from this show. That is Mercuryweather.com slash upgrade. The link is in the show notes as well. Try it out and then you can get all the standard features for free. Our thanks to Mercury Weather for their support of this show and Relay. So we've got some additional reporting. That obviously happened after we spoke last week. So Mark German has shared some quotes from an all-hands meeting that the outgoing and incoming CEOs did together at Apple.

So Tim shared that he was, quote, healthy and plans to serve as executive chairman for a long time. So the idea of sharing the healthy part is interesting, right? It's like they didn't mention this really anywhere. And I can't remember which podcast I was listening to. I've listened to lots of them now. But saying that like this seems to maybe have been something they wanted to get out there because it wasn't mentioned and maybe they didn't need to think about that. But now Tim is saying, don't worry, I'm all good.

He also said, I'll be here to offer my knowledge and experience and be a sounding board any time I'm called upon. Apple will be my top priority. It's who I am at my core, and I can't imagine it any other way. Yep, sounds about right. On the political side, he said,

this is an area where we've built relationships over multiple years and a decade plus, and I think I can help with that. And I'll probably help on some other things. That is so nervous. Right, some other stuff. I'll be doing web objects. I'll be adjusting the, what is it?

I'll be in Cafe Max, checking the pizzas out, you know. I'll be looking at, you know, the machining on the factory in India. I'll be popping up. Yeah. This is a quote from Montgomery. Cook was asked why he decided now was the time to step down. He said he desired the best ever transition, which means that the business had to be going great. The roadmap had to be incredible and for turnus to be ready for the role. He said he wanted

to transition to be a textbook succession plan, the best in the world, and I hope that business goals and so forth are writing about it. Yep. This is what I've been saying. Yeah. You're right. Tim Cook wants the best transition. And I'll just say, you know, he didn't get it and he wants it. And I get why. Like, I totally get it. And that's what they're going for here is Tim Cook didn't want to stick around because keep in mind, every year, I mean, reasonably, let's just view it this way. Every year he stays as CEO is one fewer year maybe

that he can be in a mentorship executive chairman role. And I think he doesn't want to make it that like, well, I'm going to stay longer and then I'm just going to say later and disappear after a year. Like he doesn't want that. Also, there's, the other thing here is turn us to be ready for the role. right like you also don't want it to be that Tim Cook says I gotta go I got a thing and John Turner's like well wait I'm not ready right you want to hit the timing right where things look good and you think the guy who's going to take the seat is is ready for it because if you wait too long he's going to be impatient maybe he'll even go somewhere else who knows or be unhappy so you got to get the timing right and part of the timing is is he ready I don't get the sense from anyone

here that John Turnus isn't ready for this job because if he wasn't they would just wait and do it later right like they're doing it now because I think now is the optimal time. If there's anybody who's focused on the optimal it's Tim Cook. And that readiness may have also been kind of functional of like, all right, we've made the decision. Now let's have John spend some time with every team. You know, like let's have him go and really understand what's going on in Deidre O'Brien's team. and let's go have him really understand, you know, like, just spending that time. Now, right? Between now and September, there may be a bunch of that going on if it wasn't already. Exactly. Yeah, so that there will be bits and bobs that they can do without causing too much attention and then some that they will do from now.

But, like, start having this guy. And also, like, his overall visibility has changed, right? Where, like, as you mentioned with the Neo, but even before then, he's giving more interviews and is being the person speaking about products more. So, like, giving him a bit more experience in this world, but also visibility amongst the media, et cetera, right? So, like, he is kind of becoming more of a public presence as such. And then John Turner said he was especially excited to be stepping into the role at this moment. He said, because I am telling you, we are about to change the world once again. I'm not exaggerating when I say this is the most exciting time to be building products and services at Apple in my entire career. So that sounds very exciting. I mean, you know, you can say that. Do you mean it? Maybe, right? Like, as we spoke about before, you, you, you, if you're Tim Cook, a great time to do this as if it's about to be a bunch of change. If they've got some products that they're really excited about and software and should be, right? That like, if they've really cracked Apple intelligence and are feeling good about that, excellent time to do it. And if they have a bunch of iPhones or Macs on the horizon that they think are really good, also a great time to do it. And so turn us.

may be correct. This might be the most exciting time possible for him to have done this, which coincides with it's also the exact perfect time to make the transition. Sure. I will also say Apple always says that the pipeline they have is the most exciting and amazing one ever. Wouldn't you say, Jason, every year is more exciting than the last? I think that they would. I think that that's the case. And I see people like, oh, what does he mean? It's like, well, he means that he's saying positive things about the future to Wall Street and to everybody else. But, you know, maybe he's also thinking about that folding. The possibility is there, though, right?

Even the stuff we know about suggests that the possibility could be there. Like, if they can actually nail those products and make them all really good, you know, like, this year's iPhone, next year's iPhone, which could both be big deals, and touch screen MacBook Pros and some home stuff. Whatever's going on with Apple Intelligence. Whatever's going on with a MacBook. Like, there is a possibility in which that could be accurate just based on what we know. know. And so it's exciting to hear him say it. We also have more information from Mark Goerman about Johnny Sruji and kind of the position that he is in now as Chief Harbour officer. So apparently, following up from his previous reporting, at the end of last year,

Johnny Sruji approached Tim Cook to say that he was considering leaving Apple after feeling burned out from leading the Silicon team, which has been a very big job, very relentless work. And also there's a lot of reporting about like, sorry, it's a lot of reporting in Mark's piece. about Sruji being quite a hard leader. And so maybe if you're, that is tiring maybe on him. And apparently that people said it might be some people that are surprised with the change in leadership from Ternus to Sruji. So, you know, maybe he wore himself out a little bit, being a bit too intense.

And so apparently Cook offered him, quote, a massive new compensation package and he brought a role as Apple's first chief hardware officer. That job, which combined. Sruji's old role and turn as his current oversight of hardware engineering, this is what Mark says, effectively makes him the number two executive at Apple. Now, when I read that, I was like, all right, Mark, come on. But then I started thinking about it, right? So in Tim's error, the CEO is number one and the chief operating officer is number two, which is pretty standard for a business.

But I was thinking that, like, well, to Tim, the most important person of it in him is the person running operations, because that's who he is as a person. To John Turnus, is the person running hardware, the second most important person at the company? And so, like, from that perspective, I could see it. But just in general, I don't agree. Right? Like, yeah. Well, being in charge of the business.

of Apple Silicon and hardware does, I think, functionally make you the second most important person at Apple because of what you're in charge of. But that's more about the details of the contents, not about the title. Yeah. I think you might be right. I mean,

I don't think anybody would say Sabi Khan is more important than Johnny Sruji. Yes. Like, no way. So, okay. Like, sure. It is amazing. It is a major role.

There's no doubt about it. We don't need to count. Like, any Q's job is also important. So, so Joe's job is also important. So, Jaws, right? Jaws is important.

To Apple. Absolutely. They're all important. They're all good executive as well. You're all important to me. Apple leadership page. It is a C-suite position, which we keep talking about.

It is. That is an important deal. I don't know what that says about the future. And I really hope that Surrey G is in this, not following the same route that Johnny took when he got his C-suite position. So we'll see.

So Johnny Surugi is going to be splitting the new hardware organization into five distinct teams under his new role. So we have five leaders. We have names for all of them. So Tom Marib, Tom was picked by Ternus to succeed him. So he will take the role as head of hardware engineering. But this now goes into Johnny Surugi. This role will not report to the CEO anymore.

Right. You will report to the chief hardware officer who reports to the CEO. Yep. We have Sri Sathanam, who will head up the Silicon team. So you assume, you know, this is like Sruji's right-hand person, right? Yep, to kind of take the son. Friend of the show, Tim Malay will run platform architecture. Yay, Tim.

Tim has been on the show multiple times. Tim, you're standing invitation to return. whenever you like. Tim's brother Listen to upgrade, right? Yeah. So brother Malay, you can tell Tim

that he is a standing invitation to return. But we'll also, Tim has been very present for a long time in Apokinos as the person who tends to explain

the chip and what it can do. Yes. We then have Zong Jian, Zong Jian, Zong Jian, who will be in charge of advanced technologies. I don't know what that means.

I don't know. And Donnie Nordhue who will run program management. I also don't know what that means. Yeah, that's okay. But this is not my area of expertise. The other ones I can work out. You're not a CHO. That's why.

Exactly, exactly. So I clearly cannot do this job. So there we go. We have people now. We can't really do much with that, but it's interesting to have those names. They're names that we now have in the role of X as such. So that is all the additional information that we have.

I have some questions that I want to get to from Upgradians about Tim. But I wanted to ask any additional areas of speculation that you may have. So, you know, my one, and I'm going to say it again. I said it last time I was say it again, I'm going to keep saying it forever. I think there will be more C-suite positions in the future. That is my thing that I think is going to happen because it would be very strange to me to just have Johnny Seruji elevated because that is going to start hurting some feelings if that's the case.

But what about you? Do you have any other areas that you wanted to? talk to them. I want to say that when you've got hardware ascendant in the organization and the head of software has not been promoted and that there's been some issues on the software side that I would say there's a spotlight on Craig Federigi and he has to execute especially the Gemini integration Siri kind of thing. But we also know that like those home products that John Turner's like so much have been. held up because of software issues. Now, now, I think you could argue that it was because of AI issues that were really the responsibility of John Jan Andrea, who is gone now because of that, and that that's not on Federigi, but it's on Federigi to deliver. And I would say, I don't, I don't know because I don't have inside information about this, but I would say that if Federigi is not on the hot seat, I would say what I said, the spotlight is on.

on him. And I do think he needs to deliver because I think in an area where you've got this incredible hardware and these incredible chips. And at least for those of us who look closely, we feel like the software side is just not operating on the same level. Yeah. As the rest of Apple's business. From that perspective, you would think that the person in charge of software would be scrutinized. Now, I don't know, right? Like, what the personal relationships are and what the strengths are

that Craig Federigi brings to the table and how he's perceived and, like, all of that, I don't know. And so it's a complex issue, but I would just say as an outsider, I look at that and say, I feel like Craig Federigi as a person

and also the software organization as a whole feels like is going to be under a lot of scrutiny. But I also feel like the AI reset where the AI stuff was kind of happening off on the side and now it's been integrated into the organization, I feel like that hits the reset button a little bit, but still it's super, it doesn't, it doesn't erase what's gone on before.

So I think that that's going to be an issue. My kind of my optimists take on this in the way that I could imagine this going is that the 27 operating systems deliver, I think they should be able to deliver because they will be using models that everybody knows are good and Apple just has to implement them correctly. So I'm assuming that they deliver and I believe that if they do and they receive well, then Craig Federigi is elevated to Chief Software Officer by the end of the year. That's what I think will happen, but it's predicated on it working.

but I think it will work. I do. As we stand here right now, I've been a big Debbie Downer about Apple Intelligence, I think for good reason for the last couple of years, but I believe

that they will that they will be able to pull something together this year. I still don't think that the things that we saw at WWDC 2024 will ship because I think that they were completely fake things created with hope.

But I think that they, In the meantime, we'll have had some features that do work and that will work well, and they will implement them correctly across the operating systems. But the WWC24 stuff, I just don't know if it's feasible at all. And so I'm not expecting that to occur. But I just think if Federigi can actually pull some stuff together and change the perception of Apple and AI, I think that will be a bit of a win for him. But we'll have to see.

Yeah, we'll see. The other thing that came out of German's report that I thought was interesting is Mike Rockwell, who got the Vision Pro to ship. And now I see people saying like, oh, he's no good. He did the Vision Pro. And it's like, he got that product out the door. I think that's a miracle. Mike Rockwell is on the, he's been tasked with Siri, right? But also the report from German is that like he's been angling for like a promotion and maybe like a CTO kind of role.

I don't know quite what's going on there, but this is an interesting example where you've got some people who are well thought of, who are in kind of nebulous positions and have been given tasks to perform. And I don't know whether it's a power struggle or whether, I don't know quite what's going on here, but that's the other thing to watch.

Because like, Mike, if Siri integration goes well, is Rockwell, the one whose reputation is burnished by that. And can they keep him? Do they want to keep him? Because it's the, again, it's the Allen Die thing. It's like, you know, does his opinion of his prowess match that of management? And I don't know. But he seems, you know, he seems based on reports, like a pretty remarkable person,

but that doesn't necessarily mean that. He was brought in as a fixer in two areas, right? So they must think of him well, right? It's like, you are a fixer. Right. But if he comes in and says, well, I'm really disappointed if I'm not given a C-suite position, And then you're like, well, I'm sorry. And that might be enough to make him leave, even if they like him.

Like, that's always the challenge with this sort of thing. But this is another reason why I hope for and can imagine larger executive change. Like, by creating these new roles like Seruji has, you just created five team leads now. Like, you can create new roles for people to get increased visibility in the organization and move up, right? So that, like, in 10 years time, friend of the show, Tim Malay is the chief harbour officer, right? Or whatever it might end up being. I think that you, Apple needs to, the people that are on that leadership page, have been on that leadership page forever. Yeah. They have to start creating new people that could move in or they end up leaving. And

that's not great for the future of the organization. When you have somebody new in John Turner's in place, maybe that creates opportunity to kind of start moving people out and up without firing people, right, like that maybe don't need to be fired except for the fact that you want to have some fresh faces and so we can start kind of laying the groundwork for that. Got some questions. Alan wrote in and said, do either of you see an official biography

of the infamously private tomb cook ever being produced? If so, is there someone you would see him trusting to write that story like Steve Jobs did of Walter Isaacson? It seems wild that someone who can make the case for the greatest CEO of all time might go down in history is essentially an enigma. I'm going to say, I think that before all is said and done, there will be a semi-official, if not official, Tim Cookbook.

But it will be, it won't be a cookbook. I mean, by definition, it will be a cookbook, but it's not going to be recipes from Tim. Cooking up a storm. I'm going to tell you what it's going to be. It's going to be, this is my prediction. It is going to be a lessons learned my life and my challenge. and how that it's going to be a business book that's what i want that that's that's what i'm going to say it is it's going to you're going to the people who yearn for a like a heartfelt biography

about like tim cook and his you know his life and and and and i think you will be disappointed because i do think it's going to be that the when i think of what's the book that tim cook participates in. It's going to be like Apple University for Tim Cook. It's going to be Tim Cook and how lessons from his life informed his understanding of business. That's my prediction. And I want that book so bad. Because look, everything we know about Tim is that there really isn't much else to say. And like, and that seems to be the choices of his life. He cares about work. He cares about business. He seems to have put his entire being into that. Well, and when he shares biographical information, it's often in the context of either a business understanding or a core value that is applied to the business.

And so I can see a whole book that's about that. So not just like how I learned about this thing that made me think that it's great to not have any, you know, excess inventory in the channel, right? It is also like, you know, in the South, I learned this lesson that is important. and it's why I'm committed to this particular set of values. But I can see that as a, that kind of a book. That's what I predict. Logan wrote in and says,

as stated in his community letter, Tim Cook is famous for getting up every morning and reading emails from customers. Tim's email is public information, but Turnus's isn't as of now. Do you think that John Turnus will make his email public so you can continue this direct line of customer feedback? People are just going to email

all possibilities of turnus and see what they He's going to get John at Apple.com I'm sorry for whoever has that You're going to lose that email address, right? By the way, I'm pretty confident that there is a staff Who is the gatekeeper to the email

And then passes the email to Tim Because I've seen a lot of people say Oh, you think that they've only feed Tim good stuff But no, no, he also sees the bad stuff Yeah, they also feed him the bad stuff But he still has gatekeepers the fireholes of email and is going to Tim

at Apple.com. It's a curated subset. But he sees a spread of all of it, clearly. There will be a CEO at Apple.com or John at Apple.com that will go into the executive assistant pool and will be curated and passed

to John Ternis. Or either that or the first time he appears at the iPhone event, his little credit will say John Turnus, CEO, don't email me. Don't email me. One of those.

The thing is, this is a, this will continue because it's not a Tim Cook thing. Jobs did it too. Like this is a, I think, time on a tradition now that like essentially it's possible to receive an email from the CEO of Apple. Like it, you know, they wrote them differently. But it's possible. Like it is a thing that can happen. and will continue to happen,

so I expect that there will be a John at apple.com email address. Probably. And an anonymous person wrote in it says, is it delusional to think that Ternus would not get dragged into the politics even with Cook taking ownership? No, because they won't let it. I mean, I don't think it's delusional.

I think that they are going to make a concerted effort to not, that Tim Cook is going to be the voice of that. and people might try, but I don't think they're going to succeed. Interesting. See, I think that I think that he will and he should be. I don't, I think it's ridiculous to think that he won't be involved. Like, he's not going to be interfacing, maybe. What is the dragged into?

Is it, I mean, like, I got an email today that dragged John Turner's into politics because I got an email today from the union that represents the people at the closed Towson, Maryland Apple Store. that was the first unionized Apple store and they're Apple shutting it down along with a couple other stores. Yep. And they are doing like a press conference

and the entire like angle of their story pitch is as Apple undergoes an executive transition, is it time for Apple's new executive team to change the way it handles its workers, right? Like obviously it's a very self-serving. It's from the union.

But, but so that's, is that dragged into? to, well, then I guess. I mean, are people going to be able to point a politics and point at John Turnus? Sure. But I would say in terms of Apple's engagement with it, Apple has the ability to just not engage with John Turnus over that stuff and engage with other people. If putting a picture of John Turnus up and pointing at it and saying, see, shame, politics, then sure. But like, I would say that there is a real power in controlling where your executives go and what they say and who says it. And I think Apple's going to be pretty disciplined about that for a while.

I think I'm looking at it more from the functional side, not from the world side, like of people like pointing it. Like, for example, if Xi Jinping is meeting with Tim Cook and he's like, I would like John Turner's to be there too. they're not going to like say no right like they'll manage it the best that they can but ultimately yeah maybe he goes along but he doesn't really do the talking tim does the talking like i i consider there a scenario in which he is involved as he should be as the CEO of the company but not in that he's the person necessarily dealing with it in the same way that he wouldn't be dealing with the application of new HR procedures which would be didger o'brien's role to do but it's not like he's not going to know about it if it's something he needs to know about. That's kind of what I'm getting at more, but like I guess the dragged in part seems to suggest a little bit more

kicking and screaming, which I'm not expecting as such. This episode is brought to you by Claude from Anthropic. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude, extends your thinking, to tackle the problems that matter. If you're a developer spending half your day on tasks that you wish you could just hand off, Claude code code code code, and can take on things like writing tests, refactoring,

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So MacWold is reporting that a source in the supply chain has shared with them the color options for the pro iPhone this year. Well, that's exciting. We have light blue, it's described as somewhat similar to the current mist blue color of the base iPhone 17. Dark cherry described as a deep wine-like red, not a bright fruit punch style. red, silver. This is described as similar to the iPhone 17 Pro's silver and white design, and a dark gray. So I've also pulled some of this information from 9 to 5 Mac who have an image as well that they've kind of made like a render. So, well, I have to say goodbye to our friend Orange, it looks like.

But I personally, I like the look of that, that light blue. That looks really fun. I like the look of that, if that's the way it's going to look. It looks like a real color. I mean, we'll see how it looks like in person. And I, the, the, uh, dark cherry, I'm sorry, that, that feels very much like the classic color, not a color. Yeah. From Apple. It's like, it's a red tinted black. Yeah. Whereas the light blue is, uh, at least in this concept, in this image. And we should say Macworld got this right last time.

Same writer got this right last time. So, um, that, that looks like something that's, that's noticeable and that you'll be like, oh, that's the new iPhone blue. I see. Yep. Yeah, I dig the blue. I agree with you that the, I'm just not a fan of that, that kind of purply reddish, whinish color. It's just not for me. But it feels like what the blue was for this year's phones, these past years phones, 17, right? Where it was like very dark. So it's like a hint for color. I'm happy to bring it back essentially a black phone. I think that was a bit of a miss from the lineup, like just to have silver. I think they should have also had a darker color, but not at the expense of there being two colors. So two colors, two neutrals. I think that's a great lineup. And I'm excited about the blue. I'll miss the orange,

but I'm happy to get something hopefully that's also pretty vivid in color. And that blue one, I dig. I dig that. Mark Goeman has also shared that he expects the touchscreen MacBook Pro will most likely ship in early 2027, not late 2026, because of the ongoing round. I'm shortages, which is a bit of a bummer. Yeah, it's funny because he's been hedging, I mean, honestly, right, from the beginning when he was talking about this, he said it could be early 27. It's Stephen and I on the liftoff podcast, always used to joke that whenever anybody talked about a mission that was probably headed for, for Q4, well, we would always say

is Q4 is Q1. Like, Q4 is Q1. It's just so easy to push those back. And since the beginning, German was like, maybe. Maybe they're targeting end of the year, but it might be next year. So clearly it was one of those things where it's like even the faintest gust of wind would send it over the edge. Yeah, I'm a bit disappointed about it because I would like to upgrade my laptop. And I'm waiting for this because I think it's going to be interesting and all really good to have a touchscreen Mac.

And so I'm waiting. but I would love to have a little bit more RAM and a little bit more storage than I do my MacBook Air. My M2 MacBook Air, which is also it's feeling its age, it's showing its age a little bit at computer. So I really would like it a lot. And I would also, so in my,

I've been going through this ongoing disaster of backups, which I've been chronicling on the Connected podcast. And so I now have a, my old MacBook Pro, my M1 MacBook Pro, I've been running, to do some backups and to back up my Dropbox account and stuff like that. And I've remembered how much I enjoy a high refresh rate screen on a Mac. Oh, it looks so good. ProMotion on that display.

I love it. Well, finally getting your money's worth there. Well, no, because I'm not plugged it into the studio display. No, no. So I look forward to eventually being able to have a laptop that can drive my studio display. XDR correctly as well. Wouldn't that be nice? Yeah. So that will be, yeah, I'm excited about all of that. But then it will be so funny that I'll finally have the display specs that I want, but then it will be a touchscreen that would just be closed whenever I'm at the studio. But I do use my Mac. I've been using

my Mac more and more at home recently rather than my iPad for work stuff. Like I use my iPad for all kinds of things. But for a while, I was using my iPad Pro for any kind of work stuff. But now I have this feeling of like, I'm just going to get my MacBook out of my back. It's just, I know I'm just going to be able to do whatever I need to do easier and quicker using the MacBook. And so I've just been, I've been jumping for that. Like, love my iPad Pro, use it for all kinds of stuff.

But if it's a work thing of any description, I just want to grab my MacBook here now. Which has been another part of me where I'm like, Napgo Neo. You know, every time, well, you know, MacBook Neo, you know. So every time, every time there's any kind of, I was like, you know, MacBook Neo. MacBook Pro, MacBook, Neo. You know, MacBook Pro could, I'd be bringing the MacBook Pro home every day, but I could just use the MacBook Neo, right?

A long time ago, we had discussed Apple suing John Proser over the manner in which Proser leaked information about iOS 26, which was essentially, allegedly, I'll say allegedly, paying someone to. break into a roommate's iPhone and that roommate work to Apple and show John Proser information and pay them for it. And then we're also followed it up by talking about process seeming lack of cooperation with the court.

This seems, with this case continues and this inconsistent cooperation over this lawsuit also seems to be continuing. So Mac Rumors is reporting that recent filings suggest that Proser is only partially cooperating, quote, while he has provided some responsive materials,

he has failed to fully respond to certain requests and has not responded at all to others. Apple's lawyers are essentially asking the judge to force Proser to explain why he is not being forthright and provide the documentation. Prosser's co-defendant, Michael Rema Kioti, appears to be continuing to do all that has been asked of him thus far, and it looks like a potential settlement is on the cards between him and Apple because of this. I'll also say Jay Peters at the Verge had a really good feature story about the whole ordeal.

So if you're like trying to catch up of what's going on here, Peter's. And also Peter spoke to Prosser of certain times to try and get information. Which process seems to be like, I would say maybe in a way that feels accurate to the type of person he portrays himself on his YouTube channel is like, saying things that aren't at all backed up in what is going on in the court filings of like, he's like, oh, I'm fully cooperating. But then Apple and the court are saying that he isn't. So I still at a time, like struggle to get my head around this because it feels like Apple is eventually going to destroy this man's life. and from the outside kind of appears that John Prosser is trying to pretend that that's not going to happen

as he continues to also do what he has done. And Jay Peters at The Verge says that like if you, because it seems like he's been watching Prosser's videos and like, you know, for the research for this article. And he's like, you can see that while he continues to do the leaks, the process in which he is reporting appears to have adapted a little bit, that he is trying to hedge a little bit more, so maybe he's trying to, at least not pulling these exact tricks.

But I find this a fascinating story to keep track of. Because right now, it feels like we're hirthling towards a disaster for this man. I do wonder, I mean, if he's got legal representation, I do wonder what his lawyers are saying. I did have a thought about him continuing to post stories about Apple rumors, which is one of the things Apple's, I think wants to try to do is get him to stop

reporting about Apple rumors. Yeah, that was one of the things Apple was seeking, right? Was to force him to stop. So I do wonder if one of the pieces of advice, assuming he's got, you know, actual legal counsel, one of the pieces of advice is

you need to continue to post what you post so that we can and again, not a lawyer here, but I just, I wonder if it's so that we can say this is part of your profession, this is part of your channel, this is your business that you've built, and that it's active and that you are continuing to do it, and that, you know, to make the argument essentially like, don't take this active part of his business away. Like to make the argument that saying never report about Apple anymore is going to do more damage to his business than is justified.

because fundamentally it's a big question. It's a big thing to ask to say in the United States where we have a First Amendment to say, we want to bar this person from their speech. And having it be in his business and an act of publishing that is happening on an ongoing basis, I wonder if that's like maybe even the lawyer saying you need to keep posting because you need to stay, keep your business active because that's part of our argument. or the concern here is that this guy is like posting through it and is not getting good advice. So I guess we'll find out.

But it is very weird. Also, given the other defendant who seems to arguably have done the, had the worst behavior here is the one. I mean, maybe that's why. That's the one who's like going to Apple and trying to negotiate a settlement. and all of that. But it is a little bit weird, and I appreciate Jay Peters at the verge checking in about it,

but it's a very strange situation. Yeah, like there was this one part, again, like I've had to do a bunch of Google in this morning to try and understand some terms, right? But there was this one part in Jay Peters' article that I find, I don't understand that the law works, but a clerk entered a default against the process

earlier that month after he repeatedly failed respond to Apple's complaint. The company said in a filing that Proser had been served personally in July 29, 2025, had missed the August 19th deadline. Apple gets to continue its case against Proser and Ramakioti, only now Proser can't participate in his own defense. Yeah, we talked about this before, and I think that there's this idea that they will be able to move the court to set aside that default judgment and that they will engage in the case. but it is a very weird situation that you let it get to that point and that it still seems kind of unclear

about what's going on with his defense of this. And it's like, okay, so that happened and you're like, oh, we're going to try and get him to push that aside, but also we're still fully not participating. I just, all of it to me is just like it just feels, it just feels so disastrous the whole thing. And like I agree with what you're saying about like there being a First Amendment

and, you know, maybe he's continuing to pose for that reason. But, like, from Apple's perspective, it's like, they obviously see what he does as something different because of the methods in which it came. And from their perspective, they just want to stop him, right? Right, but this is the thing is, there's what he did and there's the harm that it caused and that you could argue that's illegal.

I'm personally skeptical of the idea that you run from that to, this person is barred from performing their act as a journalist. Yeah. Which, you know, we can debate it. But like, let's just say that John Prosser is a journalist. We might not like him. We might not like what he does, whatever. But let's say it.

Like, that is, to me, a very different argument. The idea that, and that's what in the original reports about this jumped out at me is Apple wants him to never write about Apple or report about Apple ever again. I'm like, I don't know. Like, I don't think the law barring a person from speaking, I'm really, really skeptical about that. Because that gets to whole, like, freedom of speech issues that are separate from, did he induce these people to break their contracts and potentially even pay them to induce them to break these contracts to do things? that's not legal, but that's not necessarily the same as saying,

and now this person is barred from a whole area of speech. That's like another aspect of it. Not lawyers, just saying as a journalist, I find that troubling. Yeah. It's a mess. It is absolutely a mess. And I'm still, every time this pops up every few months, I still can't believe that it's continuing and that it hasn't been resolved.

Yeah. I can't believe that John Prosser doesn't seem to be portrayed as being an active participant in these affairs, that's the part that really gets me. Exactly. Like, that's the part that baffles me. It's not that our lawyer is jousting about this in court, but that John Prosser then is sort of mentioned as being like, well, you know, maybe he'll be involved or not,

which is, I don't know what's going on there, but I guess eventually we'll find out. Yeah, and like my favorite part in Jay Peters' is that he says somewhere along the lines of, process still appears to be in the US. It's like, oh my God, I guess he is to that level, right? Where like, maybe eventually the way he deals with this is he flees. Proser tells the verge he is still in the US.

That's not great. This episode is brought to you by Steam Clock. A lot of mobile apps get the job done, but they aren't exactly delightful. When an app is great, though, you look forward to adding it to your home screen. SteamClock Software builds mobile apps for companies that care about taste. They're a design and development studio based in Vancouver, Canada, and they've been shipping iOS and Android apps for over 15 years. Their clients are growing tech companies that care about mobile

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That's Steamclock.com. Snash upgrade, our thanks to Steam Clock for their support of this show and all of Relay. It's time to finish out on some Ask Upgrade Questions. This first one comes in from Mark, who says, Do you ever imagine yourself being in a similar situation as someone like Mark Gurman, where you have a secret source in Apple supply chain and you were the one breaking the rumors that everyone's talking about? Or are you comfortable with your level of analysis where you break down the possibilities of the rumors and come up for your own theories.

Well, I want to say, well, I mean, Mark Grimmond has more than supply chain sources. He's got Cooper Tino sources. Yeah, big sources. And he cultivates sources. And he's got multiple sources. And he puts a lot of work into it. And I think that's an important part of understanding what Mark German does is he's putting in the work to do this.

It's not a passive receiver of information. This program sometimes passively receives information. But Mark German is a reporter who is dealing with sources and checking and double checking with other sources and things like that. So it's a high-level thing that I am not interested in doing and have not been interested in doing in my career. And so I do not imagine myself in that situation. That's not a role I am interested in playing. Yep. I was thinking how you just posted a podcast about somebody who does this.

It actually just came up. Yeah, so I will promote this. So we're just an episode of Cortex today. So we have Jason Shrier. Jason Shrier is Mark German for video games. Yeah, at Bloomberg. Shriar works at Bloomberg. And I would say actually, like, you know,

Mark German is who he is mostly for Apple. Shriar is the entire video game industry. So, like, imagine someone who is connected in every tech company. And that is who Jason Shrier is for video game. Like if you care about video game news, you come across Jason's work because people talk to him. And so this was a lot of my conversation with him was kind of asking what it is like to have this kind of trust and to work with sources. And it was really interesting to hear his process. So if you're intrigued about what it is like for somebody who has this kind of sourcing and how they manage all of that.

You can go listen to it. but it informed to me, it underlined to me why I would not want to be this person. I would not want to have to think about my, as Jason called it, upsec as much as he does, that you are dealing with information that could mean that people lose their jobs. That could mean that people are in really tough situations and you have to handle that and handle all the trust and handle it all very responsibly. that seems horrifying to me and also it feels like

a level of work that I am not interested in. I care more about talking about things that have happened or information that is received by others than being someone who has to try and cultivate and break that news. That's just not what I'm interested in. I care more about what we do

and it just seems like, I don't know, it just seems very, very stressful in a way that I wouldn't want to deal with. Yeah, I mean it's a choice and it's not a choice that I think either of us are interested in making. No. No. It's fun. It's fun when something comes in over the transom.

Yeah. Yeah. Breaking scoops and cultivating secret sources and stuff. I'm not. I like it as the occasional time that 9 to 5 Mac writes an article about a thing we said. You know, like that's fun for me. Everything else is like, I don't know, man. That seems hard. Yeah.

Macho writes in and says, What do you think about Apple rebranding any chips for the? Neo as maybe a new N-series chip. I could see them coming out and saying, the Neo was so successful we're making chips for them. They're still just binned A-series chips, but they could call it whatever they want. Do you think they could do this?

I mean, they could do this. Mataa wants to know if they would do it. I mean, again, the marketing power of Apple is incredible. They can do whatever they want. It doesn't solve any of their problems with bin chips, though. No. I don't think they will do something like this. I think they've got

enough labels, and I think Apple's been pretty good. at labeling chips what they are and not sticking fake labels on them to call them things that they're not. So I think they'll just kind of continue doing what they're doing. But they could. I mean, if they found value in it, they would do it. Do you think that they pay any mind to the like

to people saying like, oh you know, this just this is an iPhone chip and it can do all of this and the iPad can't? Do you think you care about that kind of criticism? No. No. Like, isn't this not what their product is? I think I think there is a very small group of people

who will make statements like that. But I don't think the people in the market who are buying these products care. Yeah, that's fair. Phil Wright-Sendon says, My current iPad is an 8-year-old iPad Pro that I exclusively use for travel. I'm thinking about replacing it with a MacBook Neo,

since I like the idea of having a full Mac with me when I travel, but I need something that will let me download streaming shows and movies for offline viewing, for example, on a plane about Wi-Fi. Netflix and the like do not support. port this. They don't allow downloads except on mobile devices. Is there a way I could do this or should I just stick with an iPad? Stick with an iPad. I think for this very specific use case,

if that is that important to you, then that's what you're going to have to do. They won't let you do it on desktop because they're afraid that you're going to crack the DRM and pirate it and stuff. So you got to use the iPad. Or you get used to buying a bunch of stuff from the Apple TV app and just like watching that on your Mac, which you could do, you know? It's not going to be. It's not going be a Netflix show. No. Right? No, it's not going to be. You have to change the things you're doing.

But yeah, it's like it depends on what are the most, what is actually the most important thing to you? Like, is the idea of having a full computer when you travel? Is that more important than downloading this content? But if the downloading of content is that important, and you have no choice because they don't let you do it. It's just the app versions only will they do that?

Logan writes in and says, if Apple launches an AI-based Siri chatbot, as has been rumored, do you think that they would block it from presenting information, say, like rumors of upcoming products? If you ask Claude or Gemini, will tell you all of the rumored features. But I doubt Apple would want Siri being a spokesperson for features that they don't want public in the first place.

I don't know. I mean, Apple blocks some stuff and pre-codes some things into Siri, and there's still going to be like a layer here where Apple is controlling what goes to and from and filters things out. So, I don't know, maybe. It is an interesting question. It's like the actual question here is like, I don't know,

but there is the broader question of how Apple is going to tune Gemini's responses and what they will and will not allow, like the guardrails as such, and like, will this be part of the guardrails? It's going to be interesting to see. Like this was something we wondered about with Apple Intelligence, but it just turned out that Apple Intelligence just wasn't capable enough that there really was much you could have to worry about in the end.

But now they will be dealing with something quite different and what that's going to look like is going to be interesting. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they'll make some attempts, but I don't know. My guess here is that they won't do a lot of this stuff because everybody's looking for the gotchas from Apple. but like it's not like you can't go into safari and search and read things like that apple doesn't want you to see because apple's not going to intercede there and i think this is probably one of those areas but you know they do they are they are kind of customizing what the siri guardrails are and and we will have to see what those are and finally darren says assuming that the macbook pro that supports touch comes out at some point what is the over under and whether they'll also support Apple Pencil. Do you think there could be any special features that you may get if

using an Apple Pencil, or do you think a Mac-specific version could be released? I am going to say, I'm not going to give you an over or under. I'm going to say they're not. I've got two reasons. One is the incredible thinness of the top plane of a laptop really reduces what can fit in there. And two, you can't detach the screen. or even fold it back real far and the ergonomics of reaching over the keyboard to write on the screen

with the Apple pencil are lousy and so I'm very skeptical that Apple will do that. Yeah, I agree. I think it's just not the setup that works for the pencil. It would be weird. It's like too much pushing against it.

It would be too much wobbling. And you're pushing against the screen it's going to what? It's going to fold back. Yeah. Where like a tap is very, as you push on it. Yeah.

I just don't see it ergonomically unless they completely rethink how MacBook Pro ergonomics works, which I don't think they'll do. And I also just think from a product market perspective, once the Macs support

touch screens, they need to keep some reasons for the iPad, and like the iPad having the pencil is like a good thing that it can do. Sure. That if you care about that,

you still have that world available to you. I don't think that an Apple pencil support on the MacBook Pro makes sense. And also, let's just get touchscreen dealt with first before we start putting styluses in as well. If you would like to send in a question of your own

or if you have any feedback or follow up for this week's show, please go to UpgradeFeedback.com. Thank you to our members who support us with Upgrade Plus. This week, Jason, let's get an update on Jeopardy from you. Because I know there's been a lot going on. Still an update on Jeopardy. All right. So go to GetUpgradeplus.com. You can sign up and get longer ad-free version.

of the show each and every week. If you want to find a video version of this show, just go to YouTube and search for the Upgrade podcast. I'd like to thank Fitbod, Mercury Weather, Claude and Steam Clock for their support of this week's episode. And most of all, I'd like to thank you for listening. Until next time, say goodbye, Jason Snow. Goodbye, Mark Hurley.