Upgrade - 639: I Know How to Go to Sleep

Episode Date: September 28, 2026

From Relay, this is Upgrade, episode 639. Today's show is brought to you by FitBod, Keeper, and Century. My name is Mike Hurley. I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason. Hi, Mike Hurley. I'm sitting in my garage right now. Where are you?

I'm in a hotel room in Memphis, Tennessee. When I got off the plane yesterday, the person who was like on the other side of the door, you know, when they opened the door, I guess they're like an attendant or something. They started singing walking in Memphis. and it's like, is this your first day? Is this your first day on the job? I feel like you're not doing this constantly, but yes, I'm in Memphis.

I'm in a wonderful hotel that we're in that you'll be in a couple of days. I'll be in tomorrow night. And we'll talk about why in a moment, but right now we have to do a snow talk question and it comes from Patrick. And Patrick wants to know, Jason, do you have any go-to airplane or airport snacks

that you like to get while traveling. Oh, this is really interesting. I'm curious what you have to say about this. And I'll also say one of my favorite most, one of the most endearing things of the many things that are endearing about our friend James Thompson is that I discovered when I've flown with him a few times that he always gets,

they're called, I believe, mini-cheddars in the UK. Yeah. And he'll get little mini-cheddars. And then he got extra, and we shared mini-chedders. flying to Ireland from Scotland. I was very, very sweet of him. I go to airport snacks.

You know, I like to travel with some chocolate. Dark chocolate is my preference. I like to have some chocolate with me. This led to that situation where I kept my bag in Steven's trunk when we were in Houston and my entire bag filled with molten chocolate. Yeah, that'll happen. That'll happen. We mostly scraped it out.

Oh my God. Oh, and I didn't discover until I was at the airport. And it was like, oh, no. It was amazing. Amazing. I'll never make that mistake again, though. But that's a very California thing of, like, who would even leave chocolate in a car?

It's like somebody from California would leave chocolate in a car in Houston, Texas in the summer. Anyway, so chocolate, if I don't, sometimes I'll just bring it from home. Sometimes I will get it there. You know, maybe, maybe like honey roasted nuts, like a sweeter, kind of nut, but mostly I think my comfort to have, well, I have the nuts on the plane in case I desperately need something and the food on the plane is no good, right? Like that is like, I'll have some almonds or cashews or something just as emergency protein. Also, my stomach

sometimes, if like they serve tea and I've had too much tea that morning, which sometimes happens on morning flights, the stomach gets a little rumbly and the nuts will help with that, but the treat is the, is the chocolate generally. That's, Yeah, I would say that that's my go-to. And then beyond that, you know, it's just game planning. Are you going to eat at the airport or are you going to eat on the plane or how you, you know, I've got places that I know to go at the San Francisco airport for various things and the Oakland airport. I've got my places. And in fact, coming back from Memphis, I'm going to be sad because I'm coming back in the morning after we do the thing we're going to talk about.

And that's too bad because one of my favorite things about that. The Memphis airport is that there is a, there's a, like a brew pub right there where you can just get a beer and sitting in it. Yeah, you sit in an Adirondack chair looking out at the planes and stuff and just drink your beer and then go to the gate. And it's not going to be beer clock when I get to the airport. It's going to be early. That place does a really good barbecue sandwich too. So there's your top tip for the Memphis airport. For Memphis Airport.

Yeah, we're serving for all your Memphis airport needs. Like, listen to these guys. These guys have spent a lot of time in the Memphis airport. airport let me tell you. I know that airport. What about you? Do you have a... Yeah.

It's not going to be nuts. No, definitely not. Definitely not going to be that. I mean, that's the end of the trip. Land and flight emergency diversion. They have to take you to Iceland. Yeah, Atlanta, Iceland. Yeah.

Reference acknowledged. I will always, when I'm at any airport, I will buy a bag of crisps, chips, as you would say, and a chocolate bar. It doesn't really matter what. It's more about what am I feeling on that day. And for when I,

I'm traveling, it's rare I eat it on the plane. I actually just had that bag of chips before we recorded today because I have breakfast at 7 o'clock this morning and it's now 11. So I was like, I wanted to have something small. So I had them now. So we usually have them at some point on the trip. Yeah, I will say. So I don't, other than, you know, for Halloween, I don't, I don't buy candy. I don't eat candy. But that happens sometimes, right? Like sometimes instead of the chocolate bar, a dark chocolate bar, It'll be a different kind of chocolate bar or one of the like garbage candy bars that I like. I will occasionally do that.

If I'm ever going to eat a butterfinger on a day that is not Halloween, it will be on an airplane or at the airport. If I ever buy a package of Skittles, it will be at an airport. I guarantee you. But that does happen from time to time. It has been known to happen.

It really is the mood. I'm like, am I so sad and bereft of human feelings that I need to buy skittles? And sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes. I am also a gym. ginger ale drinker on planes. And I have heard that this is a thing that people do. And I don't know why.

But I am one of those people. I do know why. Okay. During the day, I will just get a Coke zero if they've got it or tea. But in the evening, when I don't want caffeine, I always will get the ginger ale. The reason is sometimes people's tummies are upset on airplanes because they get that bad tummy on an airplane. And ginger is good. Always feel terrible on the airplane.

Okay. Ginger is good for your stomach. Ginger eases stomach pains. That's a, it's a, it's true. I actually was feeling kind of sick the other day, and I just ate some ginger because I, that is a thing I sometimes keep in the house is candy ginger, and, uh, which is not a candy. It is a good time, though, candy ginger. It is a good time.

So anyway, that's, that's the, you know, I should probably bring candy ginger on an airplane. Yeah. If we're ever on an airplane together, please bring so. Yeah, I will. And one of my favorite dark chocolates, actually, that's a little bit of it. that I can get sometimes at Whole Foods, it has ginger pieces in it, which is also a super... So that's fascinating, because this is just one of those things that my body is asking for more than it is my decision. Like, it's just a thing that I naturally gravitate towards, but don't really think about it.

That's why they always have ginger ale. They do. They always have ginger ale on planes because it's a thing that people like on planes. And I've always, since I was a kid, I have always thought of ginger ale as a thing you drink on planes. And sometimes elsewhere, but especially on planes. You know what's a good, an alcoholic ginger beer. That is a good drink. Oh yeah. Oh, man. That's a good time. Anyway, that's enough for that. I feel like I have to do the Snelltalk break for Snell Talk. You know, I've ever got no time for this. I'd like to do it now. Working as intended. If you would like to send in a question for us to open a future episode of the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com and send in your Snelltalk question. I am in Memphis right now and you're coming to Memphis because it is September. September is Childhood Cancer Awareness Month. Throughout the month of September, we raise money for the kids of St. Jude.

And this Friday, October 2nd, from 12 p.m. to 12 a.m. U.S. Eastern Time on the Relay YouTube channel. We will be live streaming the podcastathon for St. Jude. Jason will be here. September 32nd. September 32nd, aka October 2nd. Jason is going to be here. Obviously, Stephen's going to be here.

Kathy Campbell, Brad Doughty, Casey Liss. We're going to have a great time, Western themed. I am currently wearing a piece of my costume, but you can't see it. Oh no. So we've got that going for you. I have taken possession of a vintage shirt thrifted to me by video producer Jamie Snell, who is an inveterate thrifter. Hi, Jamie. I don't know if I've mentioned that, but she is, that is her hobby, is thrifting.

And she has found a podcastathon appropriate shirt for me. I had to bring her in. I said, help me here. I don't even know what I'm doing. And she came through. There may be another one coming. and then I bought something dumb that I'll also bring. So I've got some things ready.

And I just wanted to be known, again, just to make clear, I do this entire Western themed thing under protest. But, you know, I'll, I'm game. I'll do it. It sounds like for somebody under protest, you are protesting very well, you know, in that like you are involved. I'm a team player. Yeah, you are.

I'm a team player. I grew up in a cow town. I grew up in a cowboy town. Yeah. And I look forward to cowboy stories. So it isn't novel to me and in fact, kind of not my favorite. But I am going to, I'm a, team player, I'm going to do my best. Let me talk a little bit about why we do this. So St. Jude has

produced 18 of the world's most highly cited scientists. So the people that work at St. Jude, they are cited so often. In November 2025, the list of highly cited research has recognized 18 St. Jude's scientists as among the world's most impactful, which is the most in St. Jude's history. These researchers authored multiple scientific papers ranking in the top 1% by citations for their field for roughly 10 years. Citations refer to how often a published research paper is included as a reference by other investigators in their work, which is a measure of that research's reach and influence. Being on that list indicates the value of research by St. Jude for scientists worldwide seeking to raise survival rates for children. It also shows that research from St. Jude is used and built upon the scientists around the world. So every dollar invested in St. Jude multiplies impact way beyond its walls.

And this is one of the many reasons that I am so proud, we are so proud to support this institution. While they are a wonderful place in Memphis, their work spreads around the world for kids to be saved globally. It's incredible stuff. It only takes a minute to help give a child of cancer, hope for, a better lifetime. We're inviting the Relay community to help us reach our goal of $700,000 this September. We're doing really well so far, $526,000 raised before the podcast is uneven. This September for Childhood Cancer Awareness Month. As always, there are multiple ways to support the campaign. Go to St. Jude.org slash Relay to make a donation. You can set up a fundraiser of your own and

see the awesome incentives available to donors this year. And you can also check if your employer will match your donation. And I will remind you again, The 26 podcast is on Friday, October 2nd, is the grand finale at the campaign this year for the first time ever. We'll be running from 12 p.m. to 12 a.m. Eastern Time on Relay's YouTube channel. Please come and tune in. There's a link in the show notes to the YouTube video. You can click to be reminded. We'll be posting about it everywhere we can. Come and join us. It'll be a great time. More cures, more hope, more tomorrows.

Go to St.Ju.org slash Relay to donate or start a fundraiser today. Let's do some follow-up, Jason Snell. A few people wrote into this, but I'm going to read from somebody who labeled themselves as not Mark German. I don't know if it is the person who has previously given us information as not Mark German,

but this isn't information, it's just help. So this person says, Mike mentioned the display on his new iPhone 18 Pro looked cooler than his previous phone. This is because Apple is calibrating the 18 Pro displays using Apple CMF, 2026,

a new calibration technology which they first debuted on the studio display XDR. So it does look different. So your phone is cooler, but more accurate. But I don't like that. I like the warmth. So, you know, good for them, I suppose, but I don't like it. But I'm at least pleased that I could see it, right? Like, I could actually see the difference.

So I'm not going mad. You see in colors. And also, my concern was that there was something wrong with my display, right? but it wrong to me, but it's fine. Okay. You wrote a, I don't know what you would call this, Impressions post about the... Yeah, not at first week with the Apple Watch Series 12.

Not a review, because what would be the point in reviewing it when I've only had it a week, all the reviews already came out from people who also only had it for a week, and the two major features that everybody's talking about haven't shipped. So I wrote about what I've done with, by wearing the series 12 since I got it. last Wednesday, Thursday, something like that.

And you referenced about doing sleep tracking more, and you were talking about some of the vital stuff. And I was just following up and asking you, have you not used the sleep tracking since the vital stuff shipped? So when they shipped it, I did sleep tracking. And I did that for a good, you know, I don't know. I mean, long enough to, I did the sleep apnea check and all of that, past that.

So more than a month. probably maybe two months and then I just stopped. I decided it was more convenient to take my watch off at the end of the day and charge it than it was to charge my watch opportunistically when I take a shower or maybe when I wake up in the morning. Even though I do appreciate very much the idea of the silent alarm, I really like the silent alarm on the Apple watch. And anyway, so I'm back on this. I'm back. Apple, I mean, look, I'm fine not sleeping with the Apple Watch, but Apple clearly wants me to sleep with the Apple Watch. Absolutely. And if I'm evaluating the Apple Watch, I need to sleep with the Apple Watch. So here we are. I am back charging my phone before I go to bed. Only one night did I forget to put it back, or my watch. Only one night did I forget to put it back on before I went to sleep. So I missed one, but the rest of them I've gotten, I got a really great sleep score today. Congratulations to me, 99, nailed it. Wow. That's good. Yeah.

Look at you. Yeah. She's so proud. It yelled at me. I got a bad score. Like, we went over to a friend's house for dinner and it yelled at me the next morning. It's like, you went to bed too late. It was past your bedtime.

And I'm like, shame on me. I don't like this sleep tracking. Because I don't like the emphasis that it puts on bedtime. Because that doesn't be going too bad at you, certain time does not dictate as to whether I will get enough sleep or not. And I feel like Apple's system really likes to wait the bedtime as part of it.

It's doctor, you're not listening to Dr. Desai. There is science that suggests that your sleep is much better with a consistent bedtime. And that's why they do the whole thing where they tap you on your wrist and say, it's bedtime now, you should go

to bed. Again, does this suggest that I am skeptical of Apple intruding in the I look I've been alive for a long time for more than 50 years now I know how to go to sleep so I don't need their help but I'm doing it I'm doing it I don't care so much for the sleep school I don't care about that but I like the vital checking and I do like the new readiness thing and I obviously use sleep plus plus and I have for a long time I do prefer the sleep place plus-plus style of sleep tracking and the readiness score that it gives me of apples. I just don't find that out of 100 score to be that effective for me, but I do like their readiness. Like, that is better from me because the score out of 100 is kind of just marking my sleep, but I don't really feel like I can do anything with it, where readiness score is more helpful.

And I have done enough sleep tracking now that I'm getting the readiness score because I'm on the point two betas. so I'm getting that. And it's more helpful for me. And so I prefer that as a system to just the out of 100 sleep tracking. But I love Apple's vitals thing. And the thing that I've found the most interesting is my Apple Watch gives me a sense for if I'm going to be sick. Now, there's not really much you can do with that, right?

Like it says to you, hey, look, there's a bunch of things that are out of whack. And I have noticed that, like, that tends to lead to me getting sick. Now, right now my vitals are out of whack, but they tend to be when I travel, but it will be, but this is the thing that, like, now I know I'm going to keep an eye on that over the next couple of days to see if it calms down or not. But, you know, I don't really feel as much I can do with it that, but I like knowing that information. Like I do find that information to be interesting at least, so I sleep track a bit. I wanted to ask, how do you charge your Apple Watch? Do you have like, because they have fast charging now, right? If you have the right cables. And that helps a lot for me because I can just give it a little quick top up before I go to bed. I mean, I have an Apple Watch charger at my bedside and I put it on there and read my book. And then I take it back off and go to sleep.

Okay. It works fine. Maybe in the morning I do the same thing when I shower. And that's it. That's all I do. I don't know. It's coming out of a, it's coming out of a, it's coming out. of a device that is a

it's like USBC and USBA and a couple of plugs so that I can, it's like right under my bed so that I can have my iPad charger there as well. So I don't know what it's putting out and I don't care. It works enough. It's weird though

that the puck dictates the speed. So they have newer, the newer Apple Watch puck charges allow for the higher speed. If you have a watch that does fast charging, but don't have a more modern charger, you don't get the faster speed.

I think that's the Series 10 charger that's back there, but I'll give it a look. Which probably means it's fast, but they actually, it's got faster again, and you need the new charger, I think. Again, if I felt like this was an issue, I would probably care more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you getting the sense, like, that I am, I wouldn't say I am a begrudging. Apple Watch reviewer, because I'm not, but I am not as, I'm not trying to optimize my Apple Watch usage, right? Like, I've integrated into my life in a way that works for me. And so, you know,

fair enough. I, you know, so I'm using the plug that I was. I, I, like, okay, I'll wear your watch overnight, but I'm not changing the plug out. That's ridiculous. So I don't know, we'll see. But I may, I may do that, but it hasn't been a, bottom line is it hasn't been a problem. Sure. Right. Like, I have, I have not. finding a time to charge my watch has not been a problem because charging it when I, especially since I used to take my watch off and then go to sleep, taking my watch off at bedtime while I'm reading my book and then remembering to when I am done, put the watch back on, or when I think of it while I'm reading is enough time. And then I'm fine. And then if I also charge it in the morning

when I wake up or when I shower, it's just not a problem at any point during the day. So I've been talking about with Siri AI and kind of having to ask it where to remind me of things, right? We've been talking about that over the last couple of weeks. And I noticed in the messages app, you know, it sometimes pops up and it's like add to reminders, add to notes, that thing. My add to reminders now has a to doist logo. Oh, interesting. So it has learned something about you. seems to have learned. And like, maybe this is one of the ways that it teaches me. And it's like,

I was surprised to see it. So it's like, I don't, I don't really know what, again, I don't know what to do with that. But it's like, oh, that's a change that I have noticed now. Right. That wasn't that case before. So it's interesting. I wanted to mention, um, there is one audio intelligence feature that is enabled on the Apple Watch right now. And it's music recognition. Yeah. Which is just Shazam, right? Like you can use a Shazam app on your iPhone. There's a music recognition app called Music Recognition.

I was like for Shazam. It's not called that. It's called Music Recognition on the Apple Watch that's been there for a while. But it's using its audio intelligence, which means I think it's that buffer of audio that it's doing. And it detects when music is playing. And so if you scroll or swipe down to the widget stack and it hears music, that widget appears. And then if you give it a moment, it identifies. identifies the song right on your wrist without you doing anything other than checking to see what the song is.

Do you have to enable the widget or does it do it automatically? No. It should do it automatically. Okay. Because I tried this and it wasn't, I couldn't get it to work, but I didn't know that it was called music recognition. I was looking for Shazam. And I just opened the app now and it had that like the handshaking privacy thing. So maybe I had to accept that. And so now I'll try that out as well. So that's because it is, it's very effective. I was watching, I think, Ted Lasso and I was like, oh, what's this song? And I thought, oh, I could do this on the watch and I scrolled. And it was almost instantaneous because I think here's the thing. I think the problem with Shazam is you get a moment where you hear a song. It's probably a moment where the song is really recognizable.

And also maybe in the environment you're in, especially if you're in like a cafe or something, it's a moment where it's clear enough for you to hear it. And then you're like, oh, I should open my phone. or go to that, what's the name of it? It's music recognition or Shazam on the phone. And now, and you hold it up and like the song's fading out. People are talking and maybe you miss it. And because it's using the buffer, I believe it's using the buffer. It feels like it's using the buffer.

It is listening. So it's probably caught what twigged you to wanting to know it. It's probably able to, and I think that's why it's probably faster, is that it's able to not just process from the moment you say, why don't you process? But it can process backward a little bit. Yeah. And the result is it's fast and effective. And it's really nice. And my big complaint is I would love on the watch to be able to say,

can you log the music you hear here here? Give me a list. Until I leave, until a time is over and put that in a list somewhere. Because I've absolutely had that happen recently where we were in a cafe in Portland. And Lauren and I were really liking the playlist. And Lauren's like, this is exactly the kind of music I want to listen to on a plane because it was like Sunday morning early. So it was like real vibey electronic kind of music, really good for that mood. And like 07 and, oh, I forget what else is on there. I sort of started

to build a playlist based on the ones that I did recognize. Apparently in a Shazam app on the iPhone, you can do that. You can say start logging and just leave your iPhone out. But again, my watch is out and my iPhone is in my pocket. And it wouldn't be nice on my watch to say, you know what, why don't you log until, again, until I leave here or for half an hour or whatever it is. I think that's a feature they should add, but it does apparently exist in the iPhone version.

But it's smart. So we can debate listening to people, but capturing, logging songs in a place where you want to know what the song is, I like it. I think they did a good job. And bad news follow up to last week's follow up. A GM spokesperson confirmed to join

understand that they have not changed their car play plans for electric vehicles. The announcement that we spoke about last week was just for their gas pickups, which have always supported car play. They have no change of plan for EVs supporting car play. Okay. We have to do this follow-up, but I will say there's the other story, which was about the Cadillac EV that is apparently keeping car play. And that was a sign that this policy may not be clear, and I'm just going to say it, I don't believe them. Yeah, I don't think. I don't think they are still in the process. I agree. I think there's no policy now to give up and put car play on all their EVs going forward, but I will make

a prediction, which is that they are in the process of giving up. I think, I think the Cadillac announcement was the one where they're like, we've listened to customers, where it's like, well, if you listen to customers, you're going to give this policy up. Because And like I said last week, one of their arguments was, we don't want it to take over the interface, but they've done this innovative thing where it doesn't take over the interface. It goes in a window like everybody else. So I think they are, I think this is all part of the process where there's an internal struggle and a struggle about how to communicate it. And they probably have some products in the pipeline that don't have this. And they don't want to get ahead of themselves because then they're going to have to say, except for these, these are bad.

Don't buy our cars. They don't want to do that. but, you know, mark my words, the avalanche has already begun. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. That's a reference. No one will get. Someone will get it.

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So go now and get your customized fitness plan at FITBOD.mee slash upgrade. Once again, that is FitBOD.combe, and you'll get 25% of your membership. Well, thanks to FitBod for the support of this show and relay. Room a roundup time, Jason Snow. I guess, Yee-Ha. You've got to get ready for a bunch of Yehaws.

You've got to get ready for it. Yehah, indeed. Mark German at Bloomberg is reporting that Apple is advancing their plans to build a screenless fitness tracker. He says that they have been exploring the category, developing prototypes as well. It now has the backing of several senior executives at Apple, so it's being moved forward to what is called the technology investigation stage. If the work continues to be positive, we would expect to see something maybe in 2028. I've got to pause on that timeline. Yeah.

So this is a thing I think we talk about a lot and have spoken about a lot. We spoke about a lot with the smart glasses thing, which we'll get to in a little bit too. So it's also something in a later report about this. I know it's hard to build products. Like I understand that. And the problem that Apple has is specifically difficult because every product they make is put under the microscope, right? It's under intense scrutiny from the public. and has to be ready to be potentially sold in immense volume, right?

I understand how that creates complications, but that's a real long timeline for a product category that they understand the majority of how to make something like this. It's not like a brand new area for them, you know? And smart glasses would be harder because that is a very different form factor to fit your technology inside of. But they know how to make a good band

and they know how to put sensors in a puck. Yeah, and they've got a whole framework for it with Apple Health. Yeah. So I, yes, we talked about this with regard to the glasses and I did a little rant which again, like you said, I know it's hard, I know they have to build it volume.

I get it. but I feel like, and I know that Apple today is not the Apple of 25 years ago, but I feel like the company needs, and this is like a note for John Turnus, right? Yeah.

And for Johnny Sruji as the head of hardware. It feels like Apple needs a way to move fast. And I see no evidence that Apple knows how to move fast anymore. And part of that is their size. I get it. But the size of the company and the size of the market, if they put out a product, they're going to sell millions and millions of them and they've got to source the,

they've got to figure out where they're getting the parts from. And they've got to figure out how they're manufacturing. I get that it's more complicated than it was in the past. But there are going to be times, if there aren't already, where you're going to need to move fast and you're going to need to challenge your people like, how do we build this product in 12 months? And if the answer everybody gives you is, well, it's impossible in 12 months. I would say, maybe you do need to challenge those people and see what happens. And maybe if they say 24 months and you say 12 months, it turns out that they can do it in 12 months. Maybe it takes them 15 months. Maybe it takes them 18 months. But anything that shaves off of the 24 months would be good. And so like, I don't want to,

I don't want to be that person who's like, oh, just fix this bug or add this feature. It's an easy fix because I know it's hard. I know it's hard. But I think this is a skill Apple needs to have. Not for every product, but in its toolbox to get a crash project out the door quickly. And not quickly like next month, but quickly like in the next year, let's say. And the reason I mentioned 25 years is you and I are producing a series that is going to come out and design in California next month, which is about the origins of the iPod. which is turning 25 this fall. And the iPod, let it this way. John Rubenstein and Jeff Williams

are in Japan in January, I think. I think it's January, meeting with vendors. And they meet with, maybe it's February, I don't know, and they meet with Toshiba, who shows them this weird little hard drive that is way smaller than a laptop drive and holds five gigs. And they've been thinking of doing a music player.

And literally John Rubinstein goes outside and calls Steve Jobs and says, I need you to write me a check for, you remember what it was? A billion dollars? No. A hundred million, I think it was. A hundred million dollars?

I don't know. A lot of money. A lot of money. because they want to buy the entire production run of this hard drive. That was early 2001, and the iPod shipped in November of 2001. Again, different time, different scale, different volume, different. I get it, but they took a product from parts and an idea.

They had a software, they had an OS that they had to get, which they didn't make themselves, a UI to put on top of it, an entire industrial design. Johnny Ive had to choose the right shade of white. This is like a real trailer for design in California. But like they did it in less than a year. So it was February they went. I just checked all script.

And it was 10 million was the amount of money that they needed to buy a. Write me a check for 10 million. And Steve Jobs, of course. The thing you always want to hear when you ask somebody, can you write me a check for 10 million is yes. I will do that. So they went from February finding the hard drive to shipping the product built around the hard drive in November.

November. And I know it's not 2001. And I know Apple has changed. Again, I want to be as understanding as possible before I say, you've got to be able to make products faster than this. You just, you just, you need to have in your tool set the ability to make a crash program happen because you don't want to get caught years behind the curve on something that you realize is super important. And all the glasses stuff. is like that. Like, it's gone so far that their, Apple is working on a compromise to the meta glasses that is just an audio product, I think.

And meta has backed off of their product to release another product that's an audio. Like, even the reactions to the reactions are happening faster than Apple's reactions. It's like,

it just seems like they need, again, not for everything, but they need the ability to move fast when they decide they need to. I think you almost want to do something like this just as a test.

Let's see if we can build the skills to do this. What would happen if we tried to make a product in a year? And this really feels like a product where you could do that test. Because it is by design a simplified version of a thing you already make. Yeah, you've got all the parts here. Yeah. I mean, really, it's like, can you take a relatively small team and say, using what we've got on Apple Watch and Apple Health,

can you do a fitness band? And rather than having a go-through prototype and technology investigating, we've done that, now I want you to get a product that we could start to manufacture by the end of the year. What would happen?

Not in September, but by the end of next year or by the middle of next year, something like that. So a product we could ship in the fall of 2027. And I would love, again, you almost want to do it

just to learn what the production issues are, are we too slow or are we just right? Even if it's a disaster, you'd learn something, right? So I feel like this is some, it's just a skill they got to be better at this. They're too slow. And I feel like, you know, it is, we are being harsh, but the reason we're being harsh is because of this story that we have just looked at in great detail. And like when you hear all of the story about how they put the iPod together so quickly with what must be stated,

infinitesimal resources compared to what they have at their disposal today, it kind of makes you wonder, like, are you too stuck in your bureaucracy that you can't move forward? Also, I will say, I don't know if John Turnus is the problem or the solution here, because John Turner is a product of Apple's hardware development group. Maybe he looks at it and says,

no, no, no, no, no. The way we get Apple products, the way we like them is by taking several years to build a lot of time. Yeah. Or we don't know. Or maybe John Turnus, now that he's the CEO, looks at it and is like, finally, you know. We need to step it up. We need to try this. I hope that's it. I, like I said, I don't know what the right time span is for something like this, but I would hope that John Turneris and Johnny Sruji and his new role would have a conversation that would be something like, why don't we try to create the skill? to do a product faster for the ones where we really need to do it faster. Like, not all of them need to be on this track.

Maybe there's another way that we could learn from and maybe learn, take some of the stuff we learn and put it into our other process so that it's a little more nimble too. This is why I perked up so much when Mark Herman reported

that they were going to ditch the high level M6 chips and go to the M7. It's like, oh, Apple going off path to do something faster. Showing some like nimble in the development. Yeah. Yeah. You'll love to see it. Yeah. More of that, please.

As we spoke about previously, this screenless fitness tracker is an area of focus for Eddie Q, who is a fan of the Woot Band, and has been, and this is something that has been progressed significantly since you took over the health team. I like this, because it's like, I like the idea of an executive of a particular point of view pushing something forward. I just think that that feels good to me, right? Like, there are good ways and bad ways of doing something like this, but I like that he's like, no, we should be doing this. Like, come on, let's go over there and do this.

Like, I don't want to hear these excuses anymore. We're going and doing this. A product like this kind of thing, I think also enforces and is a good thing for what they're doing with the health app. The health app is pushing into the areas that companies like WOOP and the URA ring and all of these companies are in. So it's like we were talking about earlier, readiness, but also the health age, the fact that you can upload,

and they actually really encourage you to give them blood test results and stuff like that, to kind of build out your longevity scores and stuff. Like, these are things that these more hyper-focused fitness and health tracking devices really encourage, and it's been their point of differentiation against Apple, which was more focused around the activity rings. But clearly someone, maybe ADQ, maybe others, have liked the experience that companies like Woot provide so much that they've decided they're going to start pushing more aggressively into some of these more niche areas of health. Yeah. Which they, which, I mean, it's great.

It's just very funny that, you know, they've got all the pieces here. They just need to decide. The other thing that I've railed about recently, so I won't go over it again, but you and I have talked about that it feels like Apple's attitude when they ship the Apple. watches, there will be no other wearable but the Apple watch on your wrist. The only possible form that this could take is a full-on Apple watch. And like, I don't know culturally why that happened, but it's bizarre and wrong. Like, not everyone wants an Apple Watch. You've got the pieces.

If people keep telling you, and I keep hearing from people, like, I don't want an Apple Watch. I like my watch. I do wear a fitness band. or I want a fitness band or I'd be interested in a fitness band. It's like, yeah, maybe listen to that. That not one size does not fit all. Not everybody wants an Apple watch.

So what are you going to do about it? And for years, it seems like Apple's answer was, nothing by an Apple Watch or else. And that's dumb. So I'm glad that maybe they finally stopped. If someone out there needs another excuse to tell somebody at Apple, you've also got customers like me,

where I want to wear an Apple watch most of the time, but sometimes I want to wear a nicer watch. But then I would also have the fitness band for that. So I would buy, hey, I'll buy two products. What do you think of that? One customer, two products? I think that is also a thing where people would sometimes want one or the other, depending on what they're doing.

Because I would very easily wear a band, which is just like a nice cloth bracelet that's going to sit very nicely under a shirt and wear a watch that I like. But I don't need that every day. so then I could end up with hey two products are the same customer we know you love that incredible imagine the possibilities

in this report Mark Gohmann says that work on Apple's AI pendant has been postponed I think that they're probably going to want to wait to see how the watch features and these camera AirPods and stuff kind of land with people maybe before pursuing a very AI-focused device

because I just don't know what customer appetite is going to be for this kind of stuff Right. You would assume that that AI pendant would do all the things that are in the Apple Watch. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Or that like could it really do anything that the Apple Watch couldn't do? Like, realistically. So. Again, but you know, not everyone wants to wear an Apple Watch. So maybe. But it doesn't feel is pressing a product need. It doesn't. Honestly. And the report, this report also closes out with another mention of a big redesign coming for the Apple Watch in 2027. which we've heard before from Mark.

Maybe this is the one that breaks ban compatibility, that kind of stuff. So we'll say. But how many times have we heard about a watch redesign that's never come? Flat-edge watch design, remember that? Oh, boy, was that a rumor. Yeah, sure. In Power On this week, Mark Gomez's newsletter, he also kind of in the context of talking about Meta's new VR glasses product

that they showed off last week, he shares that Apple's vision team is working on a new version, of the Vision Pro. There are four concepts that they're working on right now. The new design, with kind of with new ideas that offload some computing from the headset itself, which is what meta has done. They've put all of the computing in the puck and have made essentially a pair of safety goggles is what it looks like. And it's very light. That's just where the screens are. But no matter what Apple decides on, the company knows they need to find ways to make the product both cheaper and lighter

if they want to produce something that people will actually buy. They're exploring different materials like plastic and titanium to reduce weight, but no matter what, the focus from the company in general right now

is on smart glasses, which are still on track for next year, but they have something bubbling. It seems like maybe they have something bubbling again with vision where maybe it wasn't bubbling so much in recent history. So, yeah, so that's where they are right now,

of that stuff. Sure. I mean, the meta thing thing is interesting because it's lower, one of the things they've done is they made the screen lower quality than the Vision Pro.

But it's all about getting the price down and it's still not cheap, but it's just way cheaper than the Vision Pro. It's like half the price or something like that. Yeah.

It does feel like even this product of a lighter, cheaper Vision Pro, I'm not sure all the pieces are there for it to make sense because I look at the meta product, I'm like, well, this is interesting. Yeah. But is this even a product that anybody is going to want?

Or do you really want something, you know, even cheaper? And that we just, like, the tech is not there. Like when John Ternis was quoted as saying, like, it's the early days of personal computers a little bit, like, yeah, the tech is not there. To make it at the weight and the price they would like. That said, I do keep coming back to the idea that Apple refused. for design reasons, I guess, to put,

they've got the big battery, but they refused to put the compute on the external blob. Or any compute, not even all of it, right? Like, any of it. And like,

and the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

the, the, the, is on the blob, on betas, in addition to battery, and it's like, if you're going to have a,

a side blob, why would you not put more stuff in the blob and off of your head so that you could put it in a pocket or something. Plus, the idea that we've talked about before of like, or maybe you make it that it's driven by, optionally driven by a different Apple product. And maybe that's a Mac or maybe it's a thing that you buy for the device,

but that it could be either one. Maybe it's even driven by, I don't know, an iPad or an iPhone. But I don't know. It just like all the stories where everybody says, oh, John Turner's was down on the Vision Pro as a product. It's like, well, I mean, he should have been because it's too expensive and it's too heavy, and it doesn't make sense. The tech is really amazing, but, like, there's not a product there yet, and there may not be for years. So, I don't know, I'm glad they're noodling with it and thinking about it, but I still wonder if the answer is going to be, yeah,

META's doing this thing, but even that is too expensive and doesn't really make sense and the quality is lower. Maybe it's a good thing to do. I do think, like, I would love a light, small, packable, wearable on an airplane device that lets me watch movies really nice. Have you ever

tried those X-real glasses? X-reels? I haven't. Because I hear nothing but good things from people that use those. And that is exactly what you're asking for. That's what those are. Yeah. And they don't look as goofy either as one of the sets.

And they're all like USBC, so you can like plug them into basically anything and it and it will work so i mean i feel like i agree that the meta product is interesting but it's still not there but it feels like that form factor wise is closer to whatever there is than the vision pro right because it's like it's it looks like it's comfortable to wear on your face rather than being really heavy and it's way cheaper and so we'll see what they end up doing with this if anything This episode is brought to you by Keeper. We're always switching devices from phones to laptops to a different computer, maybe if we'll work.

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and the link is in the show notes. Or thanks to Keeper Security for their support of this show and relay. You wrote an article that I enjoyed a couple of days ago, which is imagining the next MacBook Neo, is the idea. And I thought we could.

with charts. Have fun with charts. He loves the chart. And I thought we could maybe just use this as a time to also kind of like check in on the Neo a bit and kind of talk about where it is and where it could go. So it's been about six months actually since the Neo came out. So it came out in March. And so, you know, less than half a year in, I think undoubtedly, even at this point,

that product is a hit product. Like Apple knocked it out of the park. They created a product that people want. People wanted. It had a great launch and there's always a whole set up of them in Apple stores and I always see people there. When I was buying my, when I bought my iPhone, I went to the Apple store on launch day. Someone next to me was buying a MacBook Neo. I'm like, today, today's the day you're buying it, but they wanted that green MacBook Neo. So they did it. The starting configuration for the MacBook Neo is $699 now or $59 of an education discount, which is kind of the real price of that product, really, for. for a lot of people that are buying it. And that gives you a 256-kibytes SSD, 8 gigabytes of RAM, powered obviously by the A18 Pro chip.

You bump it up by 100, and you get touch ID and the 512 SSD. So this is $100 more than when it started, right? But I still stand by it being competitive because of the market. So compared to what is out there, this product is very cheap. I don't know if you've been seeing

much of this Google book thing. has this come across your world? So Google has created another operating system called Google Book OS, and they have a bunch of products that are Google Books, and it's essentially like a version of Android as a desktop operating system,

and they're like $1,200. When you can go get a $700 Mac, like I don't understand who that customer is, really. I don't know. This is a real computer. It's not an Android or iOS-based computer. This is a real computer. It looks great, has the features you want,

and you can get it for $700. It's interesting that Apple has not made any other changes to its availability or pricing. Like months ago, we were talking a lot about what are they going to do? This product's been such a hit. How are they going to support this product? We were wondering if they were going to take one of them

off the market. Yeah, the report is that they ended up deciding they were just going to pay TSMC to make more chips for it, more A17 Pro chips for it so that they could keep selling it, which they've apparently done. Which is interesting, right? Because it's like now they've had to pay a higher price for the chips, and they're paying a higher price for the RAM,

and it only went up by 100. Obviously, this product has a smaller amount of RAM than a lot of Apple's other products, right? Like even the phones. The A17 has 8 gigs of RAM. The A17 has 8. The A18 and A8, or the, sorry, the A18 has 8 gigs of RAM. The A19 and A20 have 12.

So going to a new processor will cost them, right, obviously. Yeah. So maybe they were able to, you know, put that price up to that level, but it's actually not as big of a hit in the RAM department. And maybe they've been able to absorb some of the cost of having to pay a lot of money for chips. Right. like as we mentioned before, chips that were for this product essentially supposed to be free. That was the idea for this product is these are chips that just didn't get put in iPhones.

Exactly. So you, I think, were kind of encouraged to write this because now we have two more pro chips that have come out, right, since the one that's in this machine. And, and, you know, new iPhones, you don't normally think new Macs, but now we have to. the A20 Pro and last year's A19 Pro are on deck to be in the MacBook Neo in the future. And so, you know, obviously the A20 Pro is much more accomplished than the A19 Pro. And so the question is just, one, are they going to just go to the A19 Pro and what does that look like? You know, next year when they revise the Neo? Or would they go to the A20 Pro?

I think it's less likely that they will. I think that they'll use the year-old chip and not the few months-old chip. But I wanted to look at performance on both of them and then just, you know, again, just kind of dream on it a little bit. Just kind of imagine what are those presumably next two generations of MacBook Neo look like in terms of performance,

starting with the fact that they'd have 12 gigs of RAM, presumably, because that's what the A-19 and A-20 have. So more memory, which is probably good. And then we look at the, chips and it's just funny like the A19 Pro not super inspiring honestly it's still basically in the ballpark of an M1 for CPU and around like M2 or M3 which are very close to each other in terms of GPU so it's not it really is just sort of like kick the can down the road a little bit you still got something that's basically M1-ish in the form of the Neo which

remember we all sort of think the Neo is essentially the replacement for the M1 MacBook Air, which they were still selling. It's when you get to the A20 where you perk up because there's a big, I mean, there's a big change. The A20 Pro is about M2 CPU performance, so up a generation in a way that the A19 Pro is not. And GPU-wise, it's like M4.

So it feels much more contemporary. which is, again, probably why it won't happen. But I could see a scenario where they don't do the A-19 and they go to the A-20. But it probably won't happen for a year. But if it did, I mean, an A-20 Pro is going to be good in a Mac. I guess that's my real overarching point and why I wanted to write the story is I look at the A-20 Pro numbers and I think that would actually do, that would play pretty well in a MacBook Neo.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, you've also got the neural improvements, right? And again, I don't know how much the neural engine stuff really plays into the average customer's use case on a day-to-day basis. But I think it's only going to be more over time, though, is what I do feel, right? I think GPUs are going to be even more, though, and the GPU is. But the GPU has the neural accelerators, right, inside of the cores, which the, obviously

the A18 Pro does not have in the way that the A20 Pro does have. So there are additional benefits there for technology that will come down the line, right? I feel like Apple and others are going to start to build more stuff that relies on this, on this technology, because they have it available to them. So you could do more things with it. It's wild, right, that like I'm using my, what do I have, M5? Yeah, the M5 MacBook Air now. And we're coming from the M2 MacBook Air.

Yeah, I want to correct you. Okay. A20 Pro is based on the M6 architecture. They're the same architecture. And the GPU core is in the A20 Pro have the GPU accelerators in them. Yeah. They do. Yeah.

That's what I said. That's what I meant. So the phone's got it. Okay. Because I read that as they don't. But they do. So there are a lot of GPU benefits to going up as well, more than the neural engine. Yeah, yeah.

I meant compared to maybe, maybe I misspoke. But I meant that like the A-20s. 20 would have so much more potential than the A18 does, right? So what's currently in the MacM? Certainly. Certainly, although it's still, you know, we're still talking more like an M4 versus an M2 or three. But yeah, I mean, that's, it would bring, I mean, the real issue for Apple is like the cost, because that's a brand new two nanometer process chip.

So it probably costs too much. Probably not, you know. And so next year we'll probably see the 19, which would be okay. But I mean, that was part of my point here is that 18 to 19, A18 Pro to A19 Pro, is not super exciting. It's better. It's much better on the GPU side. But it's like, but then you look at the 820. You're like, oh, right.

Like, oh, I can see where this is going because the A20 is a much more impressive story. Yeah. And, you know, I know what you mean about cost, but I guess the thing about the MacBook Neo is just like, how did they make the plan for it? Right? Like, what if the plan was always they were going to do the A20 Pro, and then they just scale that chip production in such a way that it benefits, right? Like, that's the thing we just, there's just no way of knowing that. And, I mean, I'll throw out there too, the 17 did really well, the iPhone 17. Yeah, that's true. So the question is, that whole line did incredibly well.

So the question is, one, did, do they not have a lot? Or two, because it was so successful, they do have a lot of bin chips that they have. that that actually helps the price of the chips because they had to scale and that at the scale maybe they have more of these affordable chips to go in the MacBook Neo? I don't know. I think, yes, I think it's fun to dream on the A20 MacBook Neo, but realistically next year's MacBook Neo will be an A-19. I'm going to ask a question that I think is stupid, but I want to ask it anyway because it popped into my head, which is like, is the Neo always going to have an A-chip?

Like, why could it not have an M-chip in it? Like, could they put an M-3 in this or something instead? I think mostly it comes down to production lines more than anything else. If they had a production line going that was running on an old chip or they had a bunch of old chips binned, they could probably do that. But my guess is that there's just some fundamental things about the iPhone production that make the Neo makes sense for it because they've got those chips that they're making that are lesser.

You're always going to have more chips. You're always going to have more. As long as the iPhone is using A chips instead of M chips, there will always be a lower profile chip. And so as long as the iPhone's not using M chips, right, which really when you think about the A versus the M at this point, they're obviously very similar. The A20 Pro and the M6 are very, very, very close together.

But the M6 has more of stuff than the A20 Pro is. So on that level, it kind of makes sense that the MacBook Neo always gets the slim down. because it's the MacBook Neo's existence shows you that you know taking stuff stuff off of the M which gives you an A is what the Neo is all about. It's just one step down from the base. So the M6. So I mean, they could, but I don't think they would make it that. I think I'm more likely to have this strategy. I think it emerged from the strategy of using the iPhone chips, honestly. It seems to me most likely. I agree. It's just like it just popped into my head as a thought, right? Because it's like, What is the goal of this computer, you know, like ultimately? And can it be served by doing something else? My understanding anyway is, you know, they finish the run of M4s and then they stop making the M4. And so you would again be on this thing where it's like, just because it's an older chip,

like if you don't, if you don't, if you're not paying to make them, you only have a certain amount. I mean, they cost what they cost. I think that's the challenge there. that is that production-wise, they want to be on to the next thing. And the beauty of using the A-series is it gives you another skew, basically, another product to put in a Mac at the low end that's in production or just left production. I think that's probably what it's about.

So going back to the Neo, right, thinking about a Neo2, I wanted to touch on a few areas where I could see some improvement for this product. And we can wonder if they will do it yet or if it's going to maybe come down the line. I think the thing that should be fixed first is the webcam. So the Neo has the 1080P FaceTime HD camera compared to say the 12 megapixel center stage camera that the other laptops have. I figure that's if you're going to make a hardware improvement, that's probably the first one that you make that a Neo, right? Like that's going to have the biggest impact for the user experience having a better webcam. Mm-hmm.

Sure. Sure. People would like it if it was nicer. The question, again, it all comes down to price and what you're willing to do. Apple has shown, I think, that there are moments where they are more generous with specs than you think. And so I think FaceTime camera is probably number one. and I might put I might put another USB port

that's a good one yeah yeah yeah or on the other side or something like that like another USB port I would probably put on the list as a nice to have as well so that you can charge and plug some stuff in although most people you know two ports is is plenty the fact that they did the work to have there'd be two ports there

but you know that might be a nice to have I agree though I think that in terms of appreciation the webcam is probably number one for the users of the MacBook Neo. Or maybe they could put Mac safe on it. Right. So you could... I mean, maybe. I don't know what the cost of that is. And, you know, but it's possible depending on the chips, because it comes down to like what's getting power, what's doing data. My understanding is that getting two USB ports off of it itself was kind of hard.

Yeah. To engineer it that way off of a phone chip. But then the new phone chips are more capable than that. And then it's all about keeping the price envelope. But like, if MagSafe plus two ports one on either side was something they could do that wasn't too expensive, great,

but it may just be like, it's a nice, again, I feel like there's a line below webcam. I think you're right. I think it's clearly the feature that makes

the most sense to upgrade on the whole computer. It doesn't make any sense put Thunderbolt on this thing, right? Nope, totally irrelevant. Two other things that I think the customer

base would like and it's just about when they could do them. One is a touchscreen. I think that people would like that. But I think we're a long way away from that. Years. Years. But here's the next one. It'll be in every other laptop before.

What about a 15-inch MacBook Neo? Depends on, kind of depends on how expensive the MacBook Air is. Yeah. I feel like. Like, sure, they could do it. But then, you know, what is that one cost? Yeah.

And now you're getting close to MacBook Air. And is that one of those? those things you hold down is like, look, if you want a bigger screen, because the MacBook Air exists, right? That's the thing about the MacBook Neo is the MacBook Neo has to be designed in some ways in opposition to the MacBook Air. It's everything you give up to get it cheaper. And size is one of those.

So yes, maybe they could add any of these things, but I think it comes down to that price calculation and also doing too much to be too much like the MacBook Air. Because it's not the MacBook Air. We start to put things in and it becomes the MacBook Air and then it costs $1099. So we can have to be limited there. There's a lot of space between $6.99 and $12.99. There's space. That's true.

But I don't know. I mean, it's one of those things of, we can never know. How popular is the 15-inch Mapware, right? I think that's the question to answer whether this makes any sense to do. The computer you forgot about. Yeah, I never remember that the 15-inch

matchwork air exists. Like, I never ever think about this computer. But if, you know, it's just one of those. things where it's like, I know that people like big screens. That's obviously a bigger screen laptop. If you live on your laptop, you're always on your laptop, you use it as your TV, right?

Which is what people are using this computer for, right? Like this, people that have the MacBook Neo. No, I get it. It is the screen in their life. And I just wonder, right? You got to do some research. You got to look at the MacBook Air numbers, and you've got to look at the expense of doing two skews of the product and whether that makes sense or not. But yeah,

sure, maybe. While we're in this corner, We've spoken about it before, but Mac Neo, like a little Mac Mini Neo, does that, do you think that makes any sense to do? Yeah. I used to say absolutely not. Now what I would say is I don't think Mac Neo makes sense.

I don't think making another, I mean, talk about a niche of a niche, another desktop Mac. Like the Mac Mini is not niche enough for you. You want to have another one down there too. However, given the fifth, 50% increase in the price of the Mac Mini. What I'm going to say is,

what if the Mac Mini could start at $499 again? But it had an A chip in it. And it was essentially, it starts as the Mac Neo. But it's the Mac Mini, right? But it starts with an A chip. And then it goes to an M chip. And then it goes to an M Pro chip. And you have three chip options.

And that allows you, could they engineer it so that either of those chips, could go into the Mac Mini, tiny Mac Mini case, and that would get their starting price, which you know matters to Apple, down lower on a chip that's capable, maybe like the A20 Pro. That doesn't seem out of bounds to me. But that's how I would do it.

That's how I would pitch it. I don't see there being another Mac model. No, this actually makes a lot more sense to me. This makes a lot more sense to me. The starting price of the Mac Mini includes an A chip because it doesn't matter, right? Which is the story that the Macbook Neo is shown.

It absolutely does not matter because at a base level for some products, it is absolutely enough powerful. So I will ask one more. IMAQ? What about the IMac? Put an A-chip in the I-Mac? Again, this would be my question,

is how is Apple feeling about A-chip supply and how is Apple feeling about the prices of their computers right now? because the iMac, just like the Mac Mini, could probably have a cheaper version that's powered by an A-chip. They could probably do that. And there's an argument to be made

that like with a MacBook Air, you've got so much power in your base system of this type, and it really doesn't need to be that powerful for a lot of people. And you could save money and you could lower the price and you could have a better starting price. I don't know how aggressive they want to be about this

But if Apple wanted to get aggressive And respond to the fact that all the prices have gotten up One way you could get aggressive is by taking the iMac And starting it with an A chip inside for a for two three four hundred dollars less Yeah Obviously it would have fewer ports And it would be a much lesser computer Although you can do Thunderbolt on an A20 Pro right

You could And same with a Mac Mini It's just a matter of will Like, laptop is the most important category. Yeah. Everything after that is like, you could. Do you want to spend the time and effort doing it? Or do you just want to focus on the Mac on the laptop?

Do you want to potentially eat into your Mac mini sales? Because now people are just going to buy the A20 Mac Mini and you're not going to make as much money if you don't have the margins right. Maybe. But like, they could. I think it's not unreasonable right now, especially, given pricing, to look at the IMac and the Mac Mini and say, you could make a cheaper one driven by an A chip. And there would not be riots, right?

Like, the MacBook Neo is not a thing that appeals to most people who listen to the upgrade program for themselves because they're computer-focused people who want that power. But like, it's fine for most uses. So you could totally

use that same strategy on the iMac and the Mac mini if you wanted to. I don't know if they want to. That I don't know. I don't know. I feel like the decision seems possible, but the actual decision would be based on lots of data that only people inside Apple know for sure. And it would have to be a will to be like, do we want to do this to the iMac and the Mac Mini?

Do we want to try this? But if they feel real pressure, I think the reason I'm willing to entertain this is if they feel real pressure on the pricing thing, this would be a solution. This episode is brought to you by Sentry. Most AI tools help you write code, but SEA by Century is built for when it breaks. SIA is Century's AI debugging agent, and because it's built right into Century, it has your full context.

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They have a free dev plan, and listeners of this show can use the code, Upgrade 26 to get $100 in Century credits if you're a new user. That's S-E-N-T-R-Y-O and the code Upgrade 26. Thanks to Century for their support of this show and all of Reli. It is time for some ask upgrade questions. Patrick says, I've always loved the size of the iPad Mini, but I feel that iPadOS is just not scaled correctly

to the mini screen size and resolution. Now that Apple was actually put forth some effort into properly supporting an iOS device of a similarly sized display with the iPhone Duo, do you think there's any chance we could see a future version of the iPad Mini running the version of iOS that we see on the inner displays of the iPhone duo.

I could see arguments full or against, but I'm curious what you think of this idea. No. And why? Sorry, Patrick. No, because there's no reason to it. The stuff that's happening on the duo on the inside is basically stuff because it's a folding display,

and it's an iPhone. It's lesser. The iPad Mini doesn't need to be lesser. The iPad Mini is fine. It does all the things. that the iPad does, which is more than you can do. Like, I could see an argument of like, well, what if you want to make a simpler side-by-side multitasking systems?

Like, I guess they could do that, but like, are they going to rip out iPad OS for one iPad and say, well, this iPad doesn't run iPad OS? Or are they going to make some sort of like weird hybrid where like some iPads also get some things that are on the duo? I don't think it makes any sense. So I don't see any arguments for this. I actually just don't think it makes sense. Sorry. No, I don't disagree with you. Because also you can kind of run an iPad in a dumb mode, right? Like just single app or split view. And they've kind of made that a little bit better. Like you're not going to use stage manager or fully resizing Windows very often on an iPad mini because it's just not the display for that. So just don't do it. Right. Like just use it in like side by side split view and you'll be fine. I see the point that Patrick is making. But it's, but it's just don't do it. Like just use it in like side by side split view. And you'll be fine. I see the point that Patrick is making. But it. I see. I see. But it.

It doesn't make sense to take... It just doesn't make any sense to take an iPad and not have it run iPad OS. I agree. In the same way that the iPhone Duo doesn't run iPad OS either. They just changed iPhone iOS to support this style of interaction. Right.

Like literally the only thing that argues for this is what if you could make the side-by-side multitasking a little bit easier? which if they wanted to add that to, I mean they took it out, but if they wanted to add something like that back to iPad OS, that would be fine. Because the gestures on the iPhone Duo that I've seen look really good. Like it just looks like it's done really well.

So maybe they bring some of that back into iPad OS to kind of make that better experience if you want to do that. Amar asks, with the iPhone Duo, do you think Apple should adopt a strict approach to developer adoption? For example, give developers until December 2026 and any update or new app sent to the app store after that must target 27.1 with proper duo support. No.

Okay. Sorry. Why? Let me elaborate on my nose again. Apple really wants the iPhone duo to go well and holding a gun to the head of developers is a bad idea. They don't want the duo to launch and have apps not run. That's ridiculous.

They can't do it. They will use as much of the carrot and the stick as they can, but I'll just remind you, the iPhone 10 had apps that didn't launch right in it for months afterward. And they eventually, it got there. They will set this at some point. I think Amarish is saying,

do you do it sooner than you would normally? Sure. but again, you know, you just you can't, I mean, first off, they didn't give developers anything until like mid-September on this, mid to late September.

They need time. There's a lot here. I just don't see it. And I don't think they should do it. No, their relationship with developers is tenuous enough already. And they want the iPhone duo to be successful. But they also don't want to like, I just, it seems incredibly counterproductive.

to me. Yeah. Yeah, I do agree of you though. Like I think at some point this will be enforced. I don't think they need to make it much sooner than they would normally have done that, right? That like at some point you will have to use 27.1 or a version

of X code to submit your applications which means that it has to build on the duo. Whether it runs well or not is a different scenario. But I think where Amar was coming from with this question is looking at, at things like liquid glass and Vision Pro of like stuff that developers have been dragged into

supporting in some cases where I feel like in, you know, looking in the same places, like on on Mastodon and places like that, I feel like I'm seeing much more excitement for iPhone duo development than I saw for either Liquid Glass or Vision OS. Like I think people are encouraged and excited and interested to build for this. So I think that they're going to have less of a problem. It feels like this is a product that people are excited about more than they feel like they are forced to deal with. Also, there will come a time when Apple obviously will enforce, Ms. Zerog points out,

like in the spring, Apple will enforce iOS 27 regardless, maybe 0.1, maybe just 27. Like, this will happen. but right now is not that time. And I keep stumbling on the idea of like Apple is Apple going to get tougher on developers about dragging their feats to support the duo and it's like a lack of duo support at launch is going to be Apple's fault, not developer's fault.

It's just it's Apple's fault. A lack of duo support in apps all until the end of the year will be Apple's fault. Developers seem kind of interesting. but it seems like it's going to be a heavy lift, and they got a late start. Yeah. So I just, I can't even imagine.

I'll put it this way. If Apple did this, I would think it was outrageous, because this is not a developer adoption problem. This is an Apple failure. I think that the launch of the duo will go less smoothly than it could have. If Apple had done more for developers in advance than they did, like shipping the SDK on day one of announcement instead of a couple weeks later.

Yeah. So it's all on Apple now. And the time will come when Apple will say, okay, you need to do 27 now. But that's down the road. Like Apple's got to give developers time. And I agree with you, Mike. The developers seem excited about it. It's a new iPhone, but it's an iPhone, right?

It's going to be a fun thing for them to play with. That's probably a phone that they're actually interested in, a lot of them developers and that will sell, even if it's a small fraction of overall iPhone sales, you know, it's going to sell better than a Vision Pro or some of these other things that they might more slowly adopt. If you are an indie app developer, I think you have an opportunity here that you don't tend to always have where there will be people buying this phone and they will want apps that look cool or have fun experiences on that device. And so there is an opportunity here.

Yeah, and not, they will want apps that will not be as somebody I know who will remain nameless referred to as the shame rectangle, which is where you launch a non-duo savvy app on a duo and it launches sort of in the center with space around it. Yeah. And you're like, oh, it's one of these apps. Like, developers don't want to be in the shame rectangle, right? They don't. No, they don't.

They don't. So they're motivated. They're motivated to at least, and I think the challenge here is there's a give and take. A lot of them are motivated to at least get it brought up in a decent way and then to start to noodle on all the ways that they can make it better. It's going to take time, but I think they are motivated to do it. And I do feel like I'm seeing a lot of people say the thing that I feel like I see very often and it's fine to keep seeing it. People are like, don't develop custom UI. Just avoid custom UI in your apps as much as possible and you will just have a better experience.

Now, of course, some apps require it, because that's the app that you're making. But again, it's thinking that the more kind of standard controls that you can use, you will just have a better time as a developer. Like, your job will be easier and nicer if you're not trying to hack things too much. Yeah. Eric Wright-Sinner says,

I've been hearing people accept that the iPhone duo is just too thin for face ID, which is why it doesn't have it. But the iPad Pro is thinner and manages to have face ID and true depth systems about any issue. I understand that there's more area to work with in an iPad, but I feel like this means the thinness isn't the limiting factor.

And if Apple could, if Apple had the will, they could get Face ID on the iPhone do or why don't they? Yeah. I mean, Eric, you're right. You're right in a technical and pedantic way, which is the best way of being right, which is it's not about the thin. It's about the thin and the lack of space.

I think space is the problem. It's not the thinness. Because the thinness, well, the thinness requires, yeah, you could do it. You can do it. But the device is so thin that whatever you do there, that's all that's there, right? Yeah. And that means some other thing has to be somewhere else. And they're like, they're trying to get battery in there.

They're trying to get processing in there. They've got issues with the screen. They've got two screens with different orientations, right? So do you need to do two face IDs? And if that's true, now you've got to take more space in this very small item. So you're right, it's not the thinness. It's what can they pack in this thing? And what does it cost, right?

Because we know that the face ID stuff does cost. It is more expensive. There are a bunch of sensors. The standard face ID, it's blasting out little IR dots that it has to read. Like there's a lot of, so there's the projector and the camera. There's all this stuff going on there. so they can get it in there, but it costs and they got to fit it in,

which means there's going to be a tradeoff with something else. So, and they might have to do it times two, because they may want, if you're going to do it, you may need to have it facing out on the small screen and also facing out on the big screen when it's unfolded. And like,

now you've got two, unless they can come up with some clever kind of like Reverso face ID system where it looks one way and then it looks the other way. Oh, but so I understand why they didn't do it. I do wonder, this is a Mike conspiracy theory thing, I do wonder if with the,

we know that because of the underscreen stuff that they're doing with the face ID on the 18 Pro. And we now know that they've changed the algorithm a little bit and they use some other facial recognition in addition because it's a little less effective when it's under the screen. So it feels to me like,

maybe they are progressing in ways to do face ID differently. That may be a different combination of sensors. Yeah. That still gives them the acceptable security that they want. And if that's true, maybe the answer is they're also engineering this for not just those iPhones, but for the duo so that they can get to a point where if they've got an outward facing camera and maybe a sensor that they can put somewhere that's cheaper, they can do something that they consider good enough for face ID.

but again imagine like a big whiteboard or a big spreadsheet with all the components and the volume and it's like Apollo 13 right where they're like well if you flip this switch the power goes off so you need to turn this off and then turn this on and then can we turn this on? No there's too much power then so then you need to turn this on

and then you can turn that on that's what they do when they're designing something especially like the duo where they have limited volume they have a price tag that they're trying to that they're trying to not go over so that they get their margins like it's complicated so but but Eric is right it's not the thinness it's all of the rest of it

that makes this including and I want to say this again two screens either of which could be pointed at your face so maybe you have to do two like and that's like it now we've doubled the problem here so I think they could do it I think they could do it

I think they want to do it but and you know so I guess we'll see but I'm sure they're working on it I'm sure it I'm sure they are not happy that it uses touch ID I think that was just a a thing they realized they had to do and no choice yeah I will also just say again um so far still the face ID on the 18 pro is not as good as the 17 pro I am putting my pass code in more and more than I have before um it's interesting I'm sure it's going to get better I do feel confident in that, but it's absolutely noticeable that I am, face ID is failing for me more than it did before, which is a shame. So the infrared camera, for people who know, the infrared, there is a

camera on the iPhone 18 pro that is under the screen. It's not, you know, there is an underscreen camera there. It's not just the duo. The underscreen camera is an IR camera used for face ID, but that, and they had to spread the pixels out a little bit. There's a little area where if you look real close, you can see that the. pixels are a little bit spread out, not as dense, and it's not as effective, so they also use the camera,

but that means it's a new algorithm, and you know, you're seeing maybe the results of that, which, yes, I imagine they will tighten that up. But, like, that shows you that they're on the case because I think they realize, like, face ID is great and all,

but it requires so much hardware. Yeah, yeah. And maybe they need to find another approach so that they can have a, uh, a cut out. list iPhone and or reduced in the case of the 18 reduce the size of the dynamic island and maybe it's like a future iPhone duo as well. Last question in our iPhone duo ask upgrade today.

And we have more. We're getting so many questions about it, which is great. Everyone's so excited about it. I can't wait. Aidan says, I've always been a believer that version two will be better than the first version of something. And that's how me and my partner are approaching the duo. However, having seen no air two, I'm slightly nervous about this approach. I appreciate the air was a bit of proof of concept, but do you think it's likely we'll get a duo two next year? I think good news. Mark German says the air two is coming in the spring, and I would imagine we'll get a duo two next fall as well. Yeah.

I don't think they're going to let that one go. I don't think we'll get an air three, maybe. But I feel confident that there will be a duo three. Like I think that this is just a thing now. At this point, yeah. I think that's probably right. And I do think there'll probably be a duo two next fall. Just because they're putting like, yeah,

they're putting their whole operation behind this thing. And I think with some good reason. So, so yeah, I think we'll get the air two. They just moved it just like the 18 to the spring. They moved it without telling anybody. But I think that's what's happening. And then the duo two in the fall. I think will happen alongside whatever iPhone 19 Pro, iPhone 20.

Who knows? iPhone Ultra? Who knows about that? But I would put, I'm not a betting person, so I would not put money down or invest in a prediction market. Anyway, I think it'll happen. I have very little doubt that there will be a duo to next fall. If you'd like to send in a question for us to answer in a future episode, just go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send in your Ask Upgrade question. You can also send us in your follow-up or any feedback that you might have there as well. On Design in California

this week, our episode features the final demos and pitches that both be a next give to a special team that Apple assembles to help them make their final decision of which operating systems will be the future of the Mac. This is a great episode. It's a real shark tank situation happening. Real shark tank. We'll tell you who the sharks are. I think this is my favorite episode of the series.

I think was this one. It's really, really good. And some very important, like, lifelong business lessons to be, some learnings, as they say, to be taken away. Good learnings. About always being at your best. Yep. And what happens when you're not?

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to 12 a.m. U.S. Houston time. We'll be hanging out on the relay for St. Jude Podcast athon for 2026. Until then and until next time when we will hopefully be recorded this episode in person. Hopefully. Should be next week's episode.

Fingers crossed. Should be. Knock on wood, we'll see. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow. See you tomorrow, Mike.