Upgrade - 90: Nobody Should be a Siri Power User

Episode Date: May 23, 2016

This week Jason and Myke discuss the future of Siri on the Mac and elsewhere, and ponder Apple's new Apple Store design. Plus we've got some talk about Google I/O and final (for now) thoughts about the business of podcasting.

from relay fm this is upgrade episode number 90 today's show is brought to you by text expander from smile and pingdom my name is mike curly i am joined by the wonderful mr jason snell hi mike good to be back we are back it's, it's another Monday. I think we're on the road to WWDC now. I feel that kind of feeling constantly, thinking about San Francisco related things. Last week my diary got jam-packed with events and such. We are on the path now. Getting very close, we're very close now. close now yep yep so it's exciting stuff but there's a there's a few things that i think we want to cover today which are tangentially related to wwdc i think most of the news will be uh leading up to our event in the middle of june

but first off i tried to give a quick reflection on last week's episode because we kind of came to an end to not too long after we let lex go last week i just wanted to mention uh i thought it was a really great discussion i think lex provided a useful and positive look at the other side of the argument that we've been posing for the last couple of weeks he hasn't changed my mind about anything but i know i haven't changed his either so um i'm sure there will be more for us to say on this topic in the future i think it's clearly something that people find interesting uh but we're not going to flog a dead horse like i don't have anything else to add

nothing else has changed uh but it's something going to keep in mind as a point of discussion for the future right i think lex brought uh i think it was a good perspective to have um i don't feel like a lot of those conversations happen anywhere. And although this is not the ideal venue for those conversations, I'm glad that we could kind of likeing. It's the perspective of the people he is dealing with who are being interested in buying advertising and podcasts. And so he's got his perspective as a sales guy. He's got his perspective as a creator of podcasts. And he's also aware of the perspective of the people with the money and what their desires are. And that's a really great combination of perspectives to have. And, yeah,

we can disagree about things, but I feel like he brought a dose of sort of reality of like, this is what it's like out there. And some of it is philosophical and some of it is, it doesn't make sense, but is the reality that, you know, not everything that happens, not every bit of behavior is, is, uh, is rational. And, uh, there's some irrationality going on in terms of the quest for some of these metrics too. So it was good to hear that. I thought that was a great, his anecdote about people basically saying, oh yeah, we'll, we'll have a pixel on your podcast to measure listenership. It's like, wow, that's just amazing. So I was really glad to hear all of that. And yeah, I think we'll, I think we'll cover it again. I

wish on one level, I wish that there was a place for inside baseball podcast stuff to live on another level. I'm not sure I want to listen to the podcast. That's just about that. So, um, maybe revisiting it here every now and then is a, is a better, a better idea while also being respectful of the fact that not everybody wants to hear about podcast inside baseball, which is why we brought him on at the end and, you know, we're trying to make it skippable for people who don't care. So, but yeah, I thought it was really good. And we got a lot of positive feedback about it from people who were, you know, I've never heard that perspective before. And it was good to hear it from Lex.

And Lex is a good communicator of what the issues are. So let's get back to our regularly scheduled programming. iOS 9.3.2 came out, I believe, last week and was brought with it another upgrade issue. This is focused around the 9.3.2 update on iPad Pro 9.7-inch, so the smaller iPad Pro. It is bricking them with the error 56 issue

that we've seen in the past. Apple has actually pulled the update down. I have not updated my 9.7 inch iPad. Luckily, the news started to come out about bricked iPads just before I did it. My iPad is very upset and is asking me to upgrade, but I'm terrified uh that i'm going to destroy my device uh by doing this i am continually perplexed at how this

is still happening like this it feels like every update now there is some kind of issue where it's just bricking devices it's becoming a trend which is concerning i mean it's not every update but it's happened a few times and more often than not i think in recent times there have been some kind of issue with yeah i feel like i feel like i almost want to do if only we had hyperlinks and podcasts um don't get me started uh that that we could literally do a badoop and drop in a conversation we had a few weeks ago. Because it's a very similar thing, which is hard to understand why this is happening. Is it the pace of software updates?

Is it a lack of proper testing resources, time, people? Is it that Apple's user base is so large, although the 9.7 inch iPad pro isn't a very large base that they're not able to test things properly. And so things fall through the cracks. It's a little unclear, but you know, no software update should brick, uh, even, you know, a small percentage of a particular product that's being sold currently, especially, I mean, in terms of the hierarchy, it's like it's not that huge an install base. It's a brand new product. How did it not get checked? And I don't have any answers

for that other than that something is wrong because it shouldn't be happening. And we can have excuses and we can have explanations. But in the end, I don't think anyone would disagree with the idea that Apple shouldn't release software updates that make people hesitate to update because they they feel like there's a chance that it could completely disable their hardware but there have been enough of these stories now that that's where we are and that's something that whoever is in charge of this aspect of software at apple has to has to fix they have to correct it because i don't know what to do now just just put it in airplane mode and run away because this is a story for another time but the 9.7 inch ipad pro is my favorite computing device now oh yeah we we should talk about that we should at some point i'm i'm

formulating some thoughts on it you had that we should put a link in the show notes to that tweet that you i think it was a tweet or maybe it was just in the we did a live thing on the talk show app um for the that's by you know mike sippy and greg nos and some other people this app called talk show and we embedded it on six colors and you were in there and um you took a picture of your setup and it was sort of like a 5k imac and two ipads was how you covered the Google I, IO keynote. The, the, the,

the big iPad pro and the small iPad pro were both being used by you for different tasks, which was kind of hilarious. So I do want to talk more about, uh, why you love it, but for now you're, you love it,

but it can't be updated. It mustn't be, mustn't be looked at because it could just turn into a brick overnight. That's the thing because I, I love to use it so much, I'm now too scared to update it in case I then can't use it anymore. So when do I do it?

Like, I have no idea when. My mom is frightened to update her iOS stuff now because of, I think, mostly because of iOS 7, where it was such a dramatic change. Like, the auto-update happens, and suddenly nothing looks the same, and she doesn't quite know what everything is. And that one traumatic experience,

two-plus years ago, has led her to basically not update her iOS devices. Because you don't know what's on the other side. You don't. And she's not tied in to it, right? So she's like, well, Jason will tell me if it's okay. And that's how she does it. And it's not she's not tied into it right so she's like well jason will tell me if it's okay and that's how she does it and it and it's it's not like she couldn't do it and i'm not doing the old ploy of like oh moms just don't understand their their proxies for

people who don't understand about technology no this is like legitimately she learned a lesson from an apple software update which is never trust them again which is really bad it's like i don't know like i think since it was um it was one of the releases that was bad for everyone, right? Like if you got it, it kind of killed everything, and they were able to pull it. And I can't remember which one that was. But since then, people ask me, oh, should I update? And I'm hesitant to give a definitive answer to people now.

Yeah. I had the update like a year before that i had the update that um that uh turned off the cellular radio on my iphone that's the one that was that was the really bad one right that was a good one so i don't know i feel like it's got to be a qa thing right yeah you feel like it's got to be found there ultimately so i don't i don't really know what's going on and i think that's a good point that it's um whatever the reasons right there are probably reasons the reasons might involve the way the software is being developed the development pace um other issues other things that they're

trying to fix and they're sliding in you know they're sliding in these fixes and they lead to other problems but it doesn't really matter right what the the net result is that whatever testing they're doing isn't finding these things and you should never get to the point where you're pulling an update because it's killed killed a product for a lot of people this is where like the one of the difficult lines of doing what we do is because i understand that there are people making these things i understand there's a lot of work that goes into it but on the other side of it i'm like i don't care you shouldn't be breaking my devices you know again that's where it's really hard to sit on the line that we sit on i think when thinking just don't release it yeah just don't release it and if you're if

it's a if they're critical security fixes in along with this then there's that question of like did you just release critical security fixes or did you do other stuff? Because some fixes are critical and need to get pushed out. Other things are bug fixes and they can wait for testing to see if there are any side effects. And I'm just I'm not convinced that that the stuff that was in here was all critical. Right. I mean, I think that's I think that's a good question to ask is, just don't release it. If you haven't tested it, don't release it. Just wait. And I get the pressure and I get that there's probably pressure for iOS developers inside Apple to be working on,

you know, pushing for whatever they're going to show and release to developers at WWDC in a few weeks. And that probably makes it an incredibly chaotic time to release an update. But that comes back to, okay, what's in 9.3.2? What absolutely had to get out immediately and what didn't? And did you really make the right decision? Obviously not, I guess. But did you really make the right decision in terms of what went in and what went out? Because if you can't test it, then don't release it. This wasn't the only release that Apple had this week. They also released their new Apple Store design and the theory that goes into a lot of it.

This isn't the first redesigned Apple Store. It's the first one that's really kind of encompassing all of the new ideas. The Memphis store has a lot of these elements and i remember uh steven went and took a look at those when they reopened it because it was just done recently um the selfridges pop-up store that sells apple watches has a lot of like the foliage and stuff like that in it but this uh new store in union square which has been in construction for i think for as long as i have been going to wwdc i feel like there's always been something happening uh to with this apple store

so this is the new space though this is this is a completely they shut down the old space and they're in a brand new space that's right on union square so it's a it's a larger space okay they that they because they built when they opened that like i don't know what 10 years ago right next to the bart station that um that a, that was a big deal. But this is a different, completely different space. It's not just a remade, you know, remade store layout. It's a, it's a brand new building, basically, brand new location. So I've included a couple of links in the show notes.

One to an article at The Loop, which has a lot of the kind of apple's thinking in it in text uh but also i've put in a link to the verge which i suggest everybody goes to look at because it has tons of fantastic photography which really shows off a lot of what they're doing here and this was very interesting this this uh event angela aarons and johnny ive were there, I believe, either presenting and then the next day kind of with the opening of the store to the public. And it really kind of encompasses some new thinking that Apple has around the way that their retail spaces are going to work. And they kind of have three or four new big things that

are happening here. So the Genius bar has been renamed to genius grove and that's where you find the foliage that will be in the stores in these beautiful planters these like white and wood planters or they're like cushions i think no no wood they're like leather um they're very good looking uh and it's genius grove is going to take some time to settle in for me because it sounds strange but i think it just sounds strange because i'm used to genius bar uh but that's one thing they have something called the avenue the avenue this is all very like high concept thinking but the avenue is like a a row of their products that changes by season effectively like that's where they put all their headphones and all the stuff like that and they change them around then they have something called

the forum which is this massive 6k screen they have one of these in the memphis store as well i think i'm going to bring all of them they're very very expensive it looks like which will feature something that apple is calling today at apple which demonstrates the community creators and app developers and musicians it kind of highlights them and focuses on them. It's things that Apple care about. And then this store and some of the other key stores that Apple owns will be getting something called the Plaza, which is a 24-hour public space, which features Wi-Fi, free public Wi-Fi,

and has the Today at Apple thing taken outside with performances and stuff from the people that are on the screens. So this is a, I i think kind of natural evolution for the apple store uh it is focusing a lot more on the overall thinking of an apple product right there's a a lot more focus on accessories there's a lot more focus on open space the actual store itself from the outside looks like an apple product it has the new mirrored uh apple logo that they're using on their products and this one is just like all glass at the front it's a beautiful store and i think it's you know they're moving it forward and there's a few stores that are under construction the regent street store which is one of the key stores in london is currently uh majorly closed. You have to

go to the basement where they have all the products crammed in now, and they're going to be reopening that store at some point, and it will feature all of this stuff in it. And I expect that one will be spectacular because it's such a huge space. So yeah, that's the new Apple store. I'm looking forward to going to check it out in a couple of weeks. Yeah, I'm looking forward to to go and to check it out in a couple of weeks yeah i'm looking forward to seeing it uh it's you get the sense that this is angela errant's uh big initiative right like it feels like something with her and i've together right working on this i've designs right i mean because all the tables and stuff right those are all like johnny i've conceptual conceptual stuff that they've had so it's it's it's more stuff from him but then from for angela

erin's it just seems like she did a lot of putting out of fires when she came back but this was her sort of long term how do we kind of re-envision the modules that we use in the various stores and every store is different and every store is going to have a different mixture because this is you know this is not a virtual world this is reality and they've got to they've got to build these things and deal with building codes and deal with employees and figure out you know what with that you have a 24-hour space how do you handle security and there's a lot of practical considerations but she wanted i think a a set of new tools and to just refresh some of the concepts because some of the concepts in the it's hard to think about it but the apple stores have been around a long time now

yeah and a lot of them are not that different. They have had, definitely they've had updates as they've gone and they've made changes. A lot of them, like the Union Square store, the old Union Square store used to have a big theater. And they, you know, then they de-emphasized that the whole idea of having a theater in the back of the store and the genius bars in a lot of places sort of vanished. And it was just sort of an area where people might come and help you. And so this is kind of defining how they want to use these pieces going forward. It'll be interesting to see. My local store, which is a mall store, changed from, it moved locations to a somewhat bigger space, in still in a mall it's california so it's outside but it's still a shopping mall and um i was struck by that because

it definitely shows some changes in their approach from from before um including a huge video wall at the back of the store yeah the video wall is a new key thing that I think they're putting in most of them. Yeah, so I was struck by how it felt different. And then they had a bunch of also some ergonomic stuff. Like they had a bunch of benches and stuff at the back. Because I think they're aware that, you know, in reality, people are coming in and asking for their genius appointment and having to sit and wait for five or ten minutes while they go back in the back and get a new iPhone or whatever it is. And, uh, and so I think that's interesting too, of showing like, I chalked that one up to Angela Ahrens as well, of like, why, why are people milling around here waiting? We should give them a place to sit and, you know, we should, we should handle this all better. So, uh, it's interesting to see her take on it. We'll see how this rolls out to everybody.

I mean, not everybody is near a flagship store. So what elements of this go into the shopping malls around the world and things like that? Yeah, because the trees, whilst you can maybe think that trees are strange, they're actually seats, right? So when was the last time you had somewhere you could sit in an Apple store?

It doesn't happen. So yeah, you're completely right. She has a brand new vision for it, which I like. There's a quote from the Ver article i just find this interesting she says angela says this is more than just a store we want people to say hey meet me at apple they're trying to turn it into a thing and yeah whilst that is a bit of a i think a slightly ludicrous statement i get what she's trying to to say right because no one's ever going to say that, right? Well, I think, okay, so on one level, I look at that and I'm like, yeah, sure.

Right? Like every company says, oh, we think that our corporate structure is going to be part of everybody's. They will incorporate it into their lifestyles and it will be, you know, happy corporate lifestyle people will go there to live their lifestyles and it will be you know happy corporate lifestyle people will will go there to live their lifestyles and i roll my eyes i'm like yeah okay dream on corporate people people are going to live their lives they're not going to just attach to their brands that said if anyone can do this is apple and one two i'm not sure this isn't more a reaction to the fact that this is already true, right?

Like, a lot of these places, this already happens. People go into the Apple stores. There's their computers, right, that they use there. It just, I don't know. I think that there's some truth behind that already about how people use Apple stores. And so maybe they're just kind of going with it and saying, all right, we could do that. Let's try that. Why not?

I mean, in New York, I think the New York store has always been open 24 seven and people go in there, the Fifth Avenue store, and people go in there and use the computers and stuff like that. So I don't know. Yeah, I'm of two minds about that, which is one, it seems kind of ridiculous.

And on another level, I'm not sure that people don't already do that with apple stores so maybe it's smart to to uh you know turn into the spin and be like yep okay got it we're gonna be that then let's just do it instead of sort of having it happen in the background i am happy that you know that angela aarons is there and she's speaking about it and it shows that she has some kind of vision over this I think that I think overall into the future we're going to look back on her as being a nice positive kind of change for Apple because the stores definitely look more high concept and luxury now than they did before and I think that was why they brought her in right

that's that's the world she came from true true with burberry um and they needed they needed change bottom line like even if they're doing incredibly well the fact is it wasn't it was getting to be an old concept and you do need to always question and refresh and you know the at the apple store was a bunch of variations on ron johnson and steve jobs's original concept yeah and um and now it's uh you know it's it's dumb to say things like this but here i am saying it it's kind of apple store 2.0 in in in just just in the sense that it seems like this is a new person coming in and saying let's reconceive this let's let's uh let's go back to basics and ask ourselves a bunch of questions about what we should be doing instead of just iterating on what's already there. And I do get the sense of that a little bit,

which is good because even the best idea gets old and stale. You bet. All right, let's take a break and thank our friends over at Pingdom for sponsoring this week's episode. You can start monitoring your own websites and servers today by going to pingdom.com slash upgrade. When you go there, you will find yourself with a lovely 14-day free trial. And then when you use the offer code upgrade at checkout, you will get 20% off your first invoice. Pingdom is focused on making the web faster and more reliable for everybody who has a website.

They do this by offering fantastic tools and services. For example, if you're a Pingdom user, you'll be able to monitor the availability and performance of your server, database, or website so easily. They make it so simple, and they make sure that the use stay up and stay protected. Pingdom takes care of this with more than 70 global test servers that emulate visits to your site, checking its availability as often as every minute. So they are making sure

that your site is staying up and they're checking that people all over the world will be able to access it. But one of the things these days which makes monitoring your website a little bit different is it's not just about, oh, okay, does the page load? There are also tons of little elements within your site that if they go down could be a problem. Contact forms, e-commerce checkouts, login functionality, search functionality. Pingdom can monitor all of these things individually. So you'll know if the key interactions of your site go down. I mean, if your site's up and you're a store, but your checkout functions down, well, there's kind of no point in the site being up, right? It's not just about the whole website anymore. Pingdom take care of all of it. Stuff on the internet breaks all the time.

Pingdom detect around 13 million outages a month. That is more than 400,000 outages every single day. So regardless of whether you have a small website or you're managing a complete infrastructure, it's super important to monitor the availability and performance of your website. All Pingdom Regardless of whether you have a small website or you're managing a complete infrastructure, it's super important to monitor the availability and performance of your website. All Pingdom needs is the URL you wish to monitor, and they'll take care of the rest. When they detect an outage, you'll be immediately alerted so you can fix that error before downtime affects you. Don't be caught out when someone's trying to access your site. Get Pingdom. Check it out today, and you'll be the first to know when your site has a problem. access your site, get Pingdom.

Check it out today, and you'll be the first to know when your site has a problem. Go to pingdom.com slash upgrade for a 14-day free trial and use the code upgrade at checkout to get 20% off. Thank you so much to Pingdom, to their support of this show. All right, Mr. Snell. Google I.O. happened last week. What do you think? Yes, sir.

We talked about it on Clockwise clockwise last week i recommend people check that out and you can look at six colors for our like live blog that we did of it uh none of us being there um which you're in there and dan's in there and we had a good time um casey liss is in there for a little bit he was next to a bunch of the android developers he works for which was kind of fun or works with which is funny um i wanted to mention it only because uh um first off they announced a couple of things that i think are are fascinating and i i get really tired of the whole one-upsmanship thing where uh apple announces a feature you know it everybody knows it apple announces a feature that android's had for a while and the android people are like, oh yeah, congratulations Apple,

you got that new feature that we've had for two years. And I just don't get it that, isn't that a validation that you had a successful feature or product and that they need to have it now because that's how competition works? I think it's dumb. But what I'm saying is, Allo is iMessage and Duo is FaceTime and good for Google, right? I'm not entirely sure I'm saying is, Allo is iMessage, and Duo is FaceTime, and good for Google,

right? I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of Allo, only because I feel like what it's really trying to do is kill the momentum, and I don't think it will, but kill the momentum of things like WhatsApp, that Google kind of wants to be the platform owner and own all of those things. And there are also the issues like they've got this incognito thing, which is actually not quite incognito. It's just secure. And it's a mode you can go into. But by default, your texts are not encrypted end to end, which means it's less secure than a lot of these other services that encrypt everything. So but still, I appreciate it from the sense of Google saying, look, we need to do better on messaging that we had google talk and uh they've got google hangouts and and you know they've got a whole bunch of different things but they need to do better so alo seems to be their take on

whatsapp and then duo is it's like quite literally facetime it's keyed off of phone numbers it's one-to-one video chat uh they've got a feature that they spent way too much time on, which is that when somebody calls you, you can see them before you pick up, which struck me as being a minor feature, but it was the only thing that was different than FaceTime, so they overemphasized it. But, you know, should Android phones have FaceTime? Plus, it's going to be available on iOS. So shouldn't you be able to make a FaceTime call to an Android phone, a friend who's got an Android phone? Well, now you'll be able to do that. You just have to use Duo instead of FaceTime. And I do wonder, since they made a big point also of saying this is all based on public technologies, this is not proprietary in any way.

I'm going to hold out a little bit of hope that maybe down the road FaceTime is interoperable with it. I'm going to hold out a little bit of hope that maybe down the road FaceTime is interoperable with it. Because I think Apple's initial concept of FaceTime was that it would be using public stuff and interoperable with other things. And for somewhat hazy reasons, it never happened. And I don't think people like to make fun of Apple for that. I think Apple was legitimately intending for it to be that. was you know legitimately intending for it to be that and then something like legally happened probably patent and royalty related that made them go oh we can't do that they could have built and could still have built a facetime app for android though they could they could but um you know they they they don't want to do that apparently although maybe they should but uh failing that i mean why

not just make it interoperable if everybody everybody can use email addresses and phone numbers to video call each other and have it all be interoperable, wouldn't that be nice? And does that really need to be some sort of a wedge feature between platforms? Google doesn't care. And that's Google's game. Google's going to run it on iOS and Android. Apple only is doing their stuff on iOS right now. So, you know, one way or another i think i think if you're apple would you not rather have facetime be compatible with other things rather than have

everybody getting google's app and using it instead because they can talk to everybody in their family with that i don't know but but again i'm not going to gloat and be like oh good job google you finally invented facetime because uh facetime's a great feature and android phones should have it and it should be uh from the platform vendor because more people will use it when it's more deeply integrated into the operating system so you know so good for them for doing it i'm not going to mock them for it um i if i mock them for anything it's going to be i'm not sure i like the platform vendor coming in and trying to squash the successful chat apps that are on its platform but you know i'm not surprised well it's going to be a choice though i reckon i don't think aloe and duo will be installed i think they'll need

to be downloaded from the play store so you know they're not like destroying for now i like do it why would you not put that in android eventually why would you not just put it in there because of the european union oh well that's why maybe maybe it'll just be in we'll get it here in the u.s and you'll just have to i'm sure you'll have to download it but it prompt you would you like to download duo um in general though i thought this was a really good io keynote i did too it it you know google keynotes have been really bad they they have been it it felt like um i in the talk show thread that we had i was saying how i thought um past google keynotes were kind of like Soviet Communist Party meetings, where like every O-blast must be heard from.

Like every fiefdom inside of Google had to make an appearance. And it was so obvious. It was like there were I-O keynotes where people would come up and they literally had nothing to show that was new. Let's do a recap of what we did a while ago. And it was just very clear that there was a lot of pride and political whatever in being on stage at a keynote and that these people wanted to be there even if they had nothing to say. And that shows a tremendous lack of discipline in whoever is supposed to put the event together the leaders should be like no you don't get in if you don't have anything to say this isn't what we're trying to do here this one felt like the the right thing which is they they

their message was clear they prioritized they were um they were pretty snappy and they left a lot of the the like really esoteric developer stuff for the end. And that's when it started to drag. But again, if you're going to make those decisions, and you're, you know, this is how you do it is you have the stuff that's got the broad appeal up front. And then as the as you get into your, your second hour, then you know, you're losing people. And that's the developers are all still there so you just you keep going with the developer stuff but i just i i was struck by that that that google's keynotes have generally not been disciplined at all and this one was really on point i was impressed yeah i agree

um should we talk about siri sure sure uh what what else would be appropriate for Siri? What better than talking about Siri? Good work. There was a rumor on MacRumors this week that Siri is coming to OS X. Yeah, they had screenshots and stuff. Some screenshots. They had a screenshot of a dock icon and a screenshot of a menu bar icon.

Menu bar icon that says Siri. It's ugly as all hell i don't know why probably let's hope it's a placeholder yeah i feel like they have a super cool looking dock icon but an ugly as all hell menu bar icon yeah it's just the word siri in a box which yep i don't even know why you would need a menu bar icon unless you're entering text into it or something but we'll get to that in a little bit all sorts of things have menu bar items icons that don't make any sense so why should this be anything different very good point uh max will seem uh from this mac rumors article max will get the ahoy telephone feature it would appear yeah it seems like um although i think mac rumors said that it would be in the current the

current thinking is it would be off by default and you would need to turn it on um although that can that can change um because we're talking about a product that wouldn't ship until the fall right next version of ost well it's always off by default right i mean that's the thing you you enable it during setup of an iphone so i guess it'd be the same yeah i guess that's the question is would they would would your mac get in your way when you reboot it after an update and say all right i need to ask you about ahoy telephone or not probably would yeah i reckon it would i reckon it would yeah run you through the setup process again and enables that sort of stuff uh like when i uh whenever i update my ipad it asks me if i want to enable it

because I don't have a Huawei telephone on my iPad, so I think it's pointless. But it asks me every time I update if I want to set up Siri. Like, actually, on one of them, I don't even have Siri enabled because I just never use it. Like, I just said no. I never use it on my iPad, and I too often accidentally trigger it by pressing the button too long.

So I just want it to go away. Yep. I wanted to ask you, now, if we just could box this part into considering Siri's current feature set, why would you want Siri on OS X? It's very likely, I think, that you would have an iOS device device close enough i think i don't

think there are many people these days that are like that would not have an ios device close enough to them when they're using a mac that they could use it there are some not every mac user is an ios user um and you could argue that you know so you don't everybody's got different contexts of how they work so why not provide it everywhere and then you've got it you know so you don't everybody's got different contexts of how they work so why not provide it everywhere and then you've got it you know whenever you're near anything you've got it ready to go right there i guess you'd have you not everybody has their phone on their person at all times when they're sitting at their computer let's say but to do what though all right like if you assume you have that series only available on your mac what are you doing with it like you

know setting a timer like it's it's it's a little bit like um they brought a lot of ios features kind of halfway to the mac like the like the notification center stuff where there's like the weather widget that doesn't really go any there's no app it just sort of lives in there or find my friends it's just sort of in the notification center. And, uh, and this strikes me as being maybe potentially like that, where it's sort of not really that integrated. I hope it is. I would imagine like the people who work on automation at, at Apple would be beside themselves to have access to this. at Apple would be beside themselves to have access to this. It's not like there hasn't been triggerable voice control on the Mac before. In fact, there's triggerable voice control on the Mac now. But it's not Siri, it's not branded that way. So it might be interesting to see if they

roll all that stuff in. So you end up with the ability to run scripts and things and which would give you a lot of power to write your own kind of wire together app control and stuff like that. That might be kind of kind of fun. But I don't know. I mean, what Siri really is, is it's data sources, right? So I guess the idea here is that you should be able to to, you know, without doing anything else on your Mac, say, I want to I want to have Mac, say, I want to have a, you know, I want to have a timer or can you open this app or whatever.

I'm not sure. I do have a hard time picturing it. It feels more like it would be useful in terms of consistency than in terms of like being a huge productivity tool. So how would you use it? I don't think I would. I can't think of any use case for me, as I say, given its current feature set,

I can't think of any reason why I would want Siri on my Mac. I use it for so few things on my iOS devices. And a Mac is an engaged interface, right? I mean, that's the thing about the Mac, is that it's not true for every user, right? I can see that for people who've got mobility issues, anybody who has accessibility concerns, having more voice control on their Mac might be good.

Although I have a hard time imagining that Siri for Mac would be enough to be really satisfactory, but maybe. But it's just, it's such an engaged user interface. It is something that you're, you know, your hands are on the keyboard and your fingers are on the trackpad or the mouse. And, you know, I have a hard time seeing why suddenly also talking to the computer is something you you would that you would find particularly helpful you know in it because i mean siri in some ways is a solution to problems that exist on touchscreen devices that are maybe not necessary on a device where you've got that keyboard mouse right in front of you yep so let's break this conversation open a little bit to take it to the the place that people are screaming at us about let's look at what siri could be and think about it that way so

do you think that having siri on os 10 after all of or mac os as i and you expect it to be called. Yes. MacOS 1. MacOS 11. Spinal Tap will make an appearance at WWDC for MacOS 11. Turning it all the way up. Do you think that finally having Siri on OS X signals a potential change for Siri? Do you think that we're going to see something at WWDC that will push Siri further than what we currently have? Wouldn't that be nice? It would make sense if they're going to do it because they haven't done it yet.

Yeah, it's so frustrating. It needs to be better. It needs to be better in so many different dimensions. Apps need more access to it. And on the Mac especially, it will be frustrating if there's no way to access other stuff because the Mac has so much other stuff. But even on iOS, the ability to do that, more data sources, more intelligence, there's so much, you know, there's so much. We've seen the demos of other assistant technology lately. And there's a difference between a cooked up demo and something that's

shipping in tens of millions of phones. That's absolutely true. But, you know, Google is planning on having their assistant be, you know, be coming out soon, right, with with a lot more sophistication than Google now maybe currently has. And that's the, that's the bar being set. Right. And, and Siri has been, um, I would say a letdown because I feel like it, it is progressing very slowly from its initial release. And, uh, some of that is, is the uncanny Valley thing, which is when I talk to a robot, I expect it to, I expect it to behave like a human, and it doesn't because it's a robot.

It's just a dumb piece of software. But it doesn't mean that it's any less frustrating to have it not be able to converse with me and understand more of what I'm trying to get out of it. So one thing that I would like quite a lot, and this was something that Google was showing off, was text entry for their assistant. I would like quite a lot, and this was something that Google was showing off, was text entry for their assistant. I would like to be able to text Siri. I think that that would be helpful in a lot of ways.

Yeah. Yeah, that's actually a very clever idea. I thought about that every now and then too. Something that I use quite frequently more recently, which is great, is you can enter some stuff right you can in the search box and it's like you're kind of texting with siri so like for example i wanted to do some currency conversion and i thought i wonder if siri will do this and it will like if i type in 1000 usd it shows me the gbp like the pound sterling it shows me the amount right it just

it knows what i'm looking for or if i type in uh 25 c it knows i'm looking for temperature it shows me fahrenheit like right that's the stuff that i want it to do and i want to be able to just really talk to it i want to be able to plain text entry like pull down from the uh my my phone so i bring up the search box and just say book an appointment with jason at four o'clock tomorrow, like I do for Fantastical, but just to have it everywhere would be fantastic, right? Or just type it in and say, like, what do I have next? Like, things like that, that I don't have to talk because I don't always want to talk to these things because I feel silly. I think most people just feel silly talking to it when it doesn't understand you. And part of the reasons it doesn't understand you sometimes it doesn't get the words i'm more likely to get the words correctly if i can type

it to the the assistant right because i can see immediately what it's understanding it's true although that's that goes back to being like uh on atp a couple weeks ago john syracuse has said that it's like a command line and he's exactly right like you have to phrase things a certain way with with the echo or with siri in order to get it to be exactly what you want and the goal is that it should be more conversational it should be able to pick up in your cues and it should be able to figure it out and what you're advocating is sort of like yes it is a command line let me type it which i also see i totally see but i think the bigger problem is that not only are there all sorts of data that it doesn't understand, but that you just you can't you can't have it do complex tasks, nor can you train it to do those complex tasks if it doesn't know.

So you said, you know, book a meeting with Jason for four o'clock. That's something that really needs to happen at a high level where it's okay. Do you mean Jason Snell? Yeah, I do. All right. What's this meeting about? Do you want to tell me what this meeting is about? And you tell them, and then they send an email or a calendar invitation to me because I'm in your address book saying, here's what this meeting is about. And that when I reply that it sends you a message or tells you Jason's accepted that meeting, right? It needs to be like that high level. And right now, it's right now, it's not right now, you have to say things in a very specific way, if it's something that it can do in generally in one shot for it to do it, which is not not great. One of the big things that I found very impressive from what Google was showing,

and it's stuff that they have now in some instances is context so understanding the context of the questions that you're asking but also understanding the context of you as a person so you know they showed this off and i was playing around with this on connected and we did it with the with my google device you ask a question then you ask the google assistant another question and it knows that that second question was related to the first one right and there are a couple places where i think siri does that but it's few and far between but part of the problem with siri though with these types of things is the inconsistency is that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and it gets back to the command line thing where you're essentially like you have to have a very prescribed way of uh of talking to it and and

know the context and it becomes its own like little language and that's not how this is supposed to work i i mentioned uh mrs soup in the chat room just talked about the car a little bit and nothing frustrates me about siri more than more than being in the car because i feel like i i want and and it there are in car features but i want a much more intelligent active active assistant when I'm driving. Like, when I get a text in the car, I would really like at least the option of having Siri say, you just got a text from so-and-so, would you like me to read it? And it just doesn't do that. And be able, and it just, it doesn't do that. It just doesn't. I mean, I think I can say,

ahoy telephone, read me my texts or something like that. But again, I'm not being assisted then. I have to be the driver of it. And I'm not exactly sure what I need to say, because there's probably a very specific way to say it. And I have no doubt somebody out there is listening and being like, oh, sure, you can do that. Here's exactly what you have to say. It's like Siri power users are a thing and bless them. But the bigger point is nobody should be a Siri power user. Nobody should have to be because it should be able to figure this stuff out. And having an intelligent agent who can tell me what's happening on my phone while I'm

driving, I would love that. I would love to be able to. I was driving to, I spoke at MacNexus, the Sacramento Mac user group last week, and Sacramento is an hour and a half or so from here. And so I had, I was in the car for a long time, and I was listening to podcasts, and I listened to some music, and I was thinking on that drive, this is the kind of thing where I'm in a bubble for, you know, an hour and a half, two hours, sitting in traffic, driving to Sacramento, where I can't look at my phone and it's just me in the car. And at several points, I really wanted to say, ahoy telephone, what are the latest posts? What's going on in Slack? Ahoy telephone,

what's going on on Twitter? Ahoy telephone, do I have any new text messages? Which, like I said, I think that one it will do. But, you know, it's just, I want it to be better. I want it to understand context. I want it to read into other apps. I want it to do better summaries of what's going on and then let me dive deep if I want to. And I have no doubt we'll get there. But with Siri, I feel like the progress is so slow that we might as well never get there. And then when Google demos something like Google Assistant, and yeah, it's a tech demo. I get it. It's the best possible look for that tech. And when it comes to in reality, it will not be as good.

But still, you get the nagging suspicion that Google is really putting a lot of thought into this. And Apple, you know, I'm sure they're trying, but I don't see a lot of momentum into this and apple uh you know i'm sure they're trying but i don't see a lot of momentum with the with siri improvements i think part of this problem is around data collection uh leading apple blogger marco arment wrote a good post about this that i tend to agree with over the weekend um kind of comparing and it's it's you know it's it's kind of a thing you have to just go along with, and I think he makes a very good point, but when you try and break it down simply, it sounds a bit outlandish, that kind of comparing Apple to BlackBerry,

in so much as BlackBerry did not see coming the smartphone, and then when it happened, they couldn't compete with it. And I think that this is a great analogy for data, what is happening with data right now. Because as Marco puts, if Google and Amazon and companies like that are right about collecting data to make their assistant products better, Apple kind of culturally doesn't and won't do this. And this could come back to bite them if ai and like assistants are going to be the next big thing for our devices i really don't think that unless they've got some kind of magical technology apple can do this without changing some of their core beliefs

about the data that they collect about us all individually. Yeah, I think it can be overstated a little bit. I think there's a lot that Apple can do, but I do think the larger question is perfectly valid, which is, you know, companies with wild successes don't fall because suddenly the wild success is hated and goes away. It happens because some other thing becomes important than the thing that they're good at and that they have control over and that they can't adjust. And so that's the

fear I think that comes through about like, well, what's Apple's future is, does Apple really get this stuff? And again, who knows? Maybe there are some amazing tech people inside Apple who are building voice and assistant technology that is going to be great. And it might not even be great this year, but they're working on it and they're waiting for their right moment. Maybe so. We can't see them. We don't know. All we've got is the evidence. And the evidence is that Siri was an interesting idea in beta with the iPhone 4S, right? And it's come some distance, but not really. If you would ask me what I envisioned Siri of being capable of in 2016, when it launched, I would be grotesquely, crushingly, just spectacularly disappointed with what the reality is and that's that's just it

and some of that is optimism and some of that is not fair because it's like well i dream that it'll be this thing but i think even a fair appraisal would say it doesn't seem like it's gone very far and does it require quantum leap i mean the people at sri who left to found this new company they feel like that feel like they just basically need to do another agent, that it was time for a completely different take on it. Google's got a lot of people doing machine learning and all this stuff because that's Google.

That's what they do. And that's the thought here is like, if Apple's really good at making polished objects integrated with software that runs on them. What happens to Apple when the most important feature is the super intelligent brain that lives in the cloud and can help you with everything that you want to do? Can Apple do that? Because right now the evidence is that that's not a thing that Apple's good at. Proactive Siri was introduced at last year's wwdc as a kind of a step into this you know because companies are starting to move that way you know google has a lot more of

this smarts built into it and if i didn't know that this feature existed because they told me i would never know that anything was happening because it doesn't feel like it's being smart in any way. I think the only thing that I've ever gotten any use out of is in Spotlight when it seems to predict what applications I'm going to be using. That's great, but outside of that, that's not incredibly smart.

You're not really blowing my mind with that functionality. Did I download something recently? Yes, no. did i just open an application and close it yeah maybe put it in there i or like does mike seem to do open this application at 12 o'clock on a monday morning yeah he does like that's cool but i'm not really getting a massive amount from that and i'm really feeling like and i am very much hoping that i'll be surprised that at wwdc we're not

going to see anything that is going to be able to compete in this realm whether apple will be able to at some point in the future i am kind of unconvinced that they will be able to do it right now and i think that might end up being a problem for them you know a lot of these things we can kind of sit in our little world and take a look at what we think the next trends are going to be but ultimately one of them will break out and this could be the next one that breaks out and it feels like apple we're not going to be ready for it right and we don't we don't know for sure it's just this feeling like well if they had if they had this game down then we would see it in siri more than what we've seen in siri like that that that simple and you know i i am prepared to be surprised i do wonder sometimes

if this is just one of those areas where apple strategy is um is acquisition is what they what they say on the analyst call analyst call is m&a strategy which is they they'll buy it when they think they need it but can you imagine that like we'll buy another siri company and and integrate it and make a new siri i'm not sure i'm not sure i get i get that sometimes that's what you need to do but um you know google it's a it's a part of Google's core being doing this sort of thing in a way that it isn't for Apple. And I don't know how you get it to be part of the core for Apple. Google have been collecting data about us before they even know that they needed to create an intelligent system, right? You know, but I think, I gotta say, I think that Google's collecting of data is, as an advantage, is overstated a little bit. That Google, you know, there are ways for Apple.

There are ways for Apple to do a lot of that. Apple can collect data on the devices. Apple could encrypt data based on your Apple ID and share it among your devices. Now, the devices might need to do some of the intelligent processing. It's possible if Apple really doesn't want to ever see any of that data for you. Or Apple could come up with a strategy where there's some of that data that Apple holds on to. But, you know, although that can give Google a leg up, I don't think that's the biggest

advantage. I think the biggest advantage is that Google has cloud services as a real core part of what they are, that having intelligence in the cloud and doing machine learning because like personalization is harder without personalized data but you can still have data and machine learning and and uh and make the products better and i'm just not convinced that apple as it's been structured it goes back to that um ben thompson article about the the the about paint and gunpowder, that Apple is a polished hardware company with integrated software, and then the services stuff has sort of been floating around.

And they've made some steps to maybe realign how they do that. So maybe they're headed in a good direction. I don't know. But that's that's still the open question is if that becomes the most important thing, the single most important thing in being a platform vendor for for a smartphone, then Apple's gonna have a challenge. Because right now Apple is getting by with middling services because their hardware and the software on the device is good. But at some point, it won't matter. And that's the BlackBerry analogy that Marco made, and I think it's right, which is at some point,

all the things you're good at won't be the things that you need to succeed. And what happens then? What happens is you're either ready for the change or you miss it. And this is Facebook as well. Facebook are a recent example of this and this is something that zuckerberg has spoken about quite openly and i bring this up a lot because i i really love the candidness of a statement like this which was when they bought oculus zuckerberg basically said we missed mobile we were late i won't let it happen again and it's like i love that right

like we're just gonna take a bet on vr because we think that that's going to be the next big thing we didn't take the right bet on mobile and we were behind where we should have been i think that is a great attitude to have yeah it's yeah we'll see what happens uh it's hard because you make forecasts about what is going to be important, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're right. It's also interesting because Google wants to be everywhere, right? And iOS is an incredibly valuable platform. So one of the advantages in some ways of being, especially if you're an iOS user, is that you can use Google stuff and it will work. It won't work as well because it's not as integrated into the platform, but it will work.

So iOS users will be able to try all this stuff out. But in the long run, a lot of the stuff just needs to be in the platform. It needs to be integrated deeply, especially if the platform is so locked down like iOS is. So I don't know So I don't know. I don't know. I mean, this is, this is the, I hope, and Apple's pride will never let them talk about this stuff publicly. Right.

But I hope that in the background, Apple is well aware that one of their greatest sort of existential threats is their lack of good, you know cloud services and investment in things like this assistant technology i hope that they know that siri has kind of been a disappointment and that they need to do a lot better with it and not that they figure they can just sort of like it's fine it's not that important we'll just keep patching over it which is sort of what it feels like has been happening with it so um yeah i don't know we'll see what happens but um but you make a good point with facebook remember how facebook was just totally missed missed uh mobile they just totally like whoop just and by the way instagram still doesn't work on the ipad except in iphone mode so i can't they're

not all they're not all the way there yet i just i can't understand that i will never understand that just yeah if you don't if you don't want me to take photos on my ipad and post into instagram that's fine give me just an app where i can view them especially after they pulled the api function for people for apps that were doing that there were third-party apps that you could look Instagram photos on, and now they're gone. It's like, what are you doing? This week's episode is brought to you by Smile and the new TextExpander, which is simply indispensable.

Imagine for a moment, dear listener, you having the ability to never need to type the same email address, chunk of code, slogan, marketing copy, directions, or any kind of data more than once. Because with TextExpander, you just type it in that one time, you assign a snippet to it, which is a couple of characters of text, and then every time you need that piece of data again, you just type in that character of text,

and automatically it just expands for you and fills the text in magically. It's fantastic. TextExpander, at its core, helps you save one of your most precious resources, time. So I use TextExpander every day. And one of my favorite features is the fill in the blank snippets that they have. So you can create snippets with certain areas in them, which allow you to choose from dropdowns, or you can just enter in text, which allow you to choose from dropdowns, or you can just enter in text, or you can have your cursor placed in specific areas so you can paste stuff in. I love all of this.

So if you send emails frequently that have pretty much the same content, but you need to change a few parts of it, super, super easy with TextExpander. And now something you're able to do with TextExpander is also share groups of snippets with others. So let's say you work in a team, maybe you do customer support or something, and there are frequent responses that you want to standardize across everybody. This is super simple to do with the new TextExpander. And if something changes in a snippet, it just needs to be updated once and it's updated for everyone. TextExpander now includes apps for Mac, iPhone, iPad, and Windows, which is currently in beta. So no matter where you are, all of your snippets will be right with you at all times.

Live Hacker subscriptions to TextExpander cost $40 per year and include all of those apps and the TextExpander sharing service. And there are discounts available for registered and previous TextExpander users as well. You can also get team subscriptions. These include organization-focused snippet management, detailed access control, consolidated billing, and so much more. You want to boost your productivity and learn more at smilesoftware.com upgrade. Thank you so much to Smile for their continued support

of this very program. It is Ask Upgrade time, Jason Snell. We didn't do any last week, so there were some extra lasers because they've been kind of waiting in the wings. They're overpowered now, those lasers. The first question comes from C. Fickett. And C. Fickett asks, is there a way to always get the desktop version of websites by default on my iPad Pro?

Now, I know that both Safari and Chrome have an option, so you can go to a page and you can click the options, whether it's the three little lines in Chrome or the weird square arrow button in Safari. And you can bring up the extensions view and say, I want to view the desktop version. And it will then force the desktop version to show. Now, with those applications,

there is no way that I am aware of to force the browser into that mode. Yeah, in those applications, you can't. However, you want to check out an app like iCab, which is another third party browser, which has a gajillion settings in it. And one of the things that you can do with iCab is force the, what are they called? Is it user agent? Is that what it's called? Yeah. Yeah. User agent string. You can force the user agent to present to the website that it's something that it's not. So you can say that you're a Mac rather than an iOS device. So if this is something that's really important to you for some reason, that is a way that you can force the websites to change. Now,

iCab, there are some others, I believe, that will do this, but iCab is the one off the top of my head that I know can. It is an incredibly feature-rich and complex application, which you will either love or hate, but it does some stuff that no other app will do. I think iCab on the iPad will allow you to have two web pages open side by side. So you could have in split screen, two web pages on the left and something else on the right. So it is an incredibly powerful web browser. And for iPad power users, I think it is a good tool to have.

I've heard Federico and Fraser on Canvas speak very highly of this. And I think there is an episode where they go into detail about web browsers. I will find that and put it in the show notes for you if they do do that. I'm pretty sure they did do that at some point, but I can't remember. It sounds familiar.

Yeah, and I would say I would love it if Safari and Chrome would provide a desktop browsing mode. You do give some things up when you do that. Some websites will try to put Flash video and stuff in the desktop version that they don't bother with the mobile version. Sometimes I find myself switching to the mobile version on my Mac in order to see video without having Flash. in order to see video without having flash. Um, but, uh, but yeah, one of my frustrations about having, especially the 12.9 inch iPad pro is there are a lot of websites that are aggressively like you're on a mobile device. I'll give you this weird phone view on your 13 inch screen. And it's terrible. And, uh, and so I, I find myself hitting that request desktop site uh button a lot and uh a lot more

than i than i used to in fact so uh icab is a good if you want to just sort of have an icon that you can open that will give you the desktop browsing experience and then keep safari and chrome around for uh for other uses uh that would work too blake asked should I get the 9.7 or 12.9 inch iPad Pro, mostly going to be used for movies, music, and email? Easy question. No, this is incredibly difficult. I know. Because you've given two separate uses.

So if you're going to be mainly watching movies and consuming entertainment, I would say go 12.9 because it's a better screen, a bigger screen, louder speakers, you know, it's a better music and media consumption device. But if you're going to be doing like email and web browsing, then maybe you want the portability of a 9.7 inch. I think this is a really difficult question to answer. If you are mainly going to be using this as an entertainment device, I would say go 12.9. If you're mainly going to be using this as an entertainment device, I would say go 12.9. If you're mainly going to be using this as a reading device, whether that be, uh, reading

articles, reading Twitter, uh, reading email, I would suggest 9.7. So I think if you kind of got to boil it down a little bit more, I think the default should be 9.7. And then you should consider, do I really want the extra weight and size and cost of the 12.9 because i want to do x and if it really is like well i just want to have the biggest screen possible for watching movies and the loudest speakers then okay but um but i think most people will prefer the 9.7. I agree. But the 12.9 is a marvelous machine for what it does. I love it. Yeah. All right. And then Fred asks, this one's definitely for you, Jason. Does the Kindle Oasis allow you to tweak quotes like earlier models?

So as far as I don't tweak quotes from my Kindle generally, occasionally I do, but very rarely. I haven't tested this, but as far as I can tell the software is exactly the same it's basically always the same Amazon doesn't tend to remove features they just keep on kind of adding features as they go to the existing you know to the to the new models and occasionally it'll be an update for old models so I think it hasn't changed substantially so I don't see why that feature wouldn't still be there. You can still link your Twitter account and your Facebook account, and I believe you can do all of those social sharing features that they used to offer. And finally, Jim asks, Hamilton the musical is taking America by storm.

What does Mike think of it? This is a very good question. I have never listened to Hamilton. It is on my list of things to do i wonder for my own self and you know i'm sure that many people probably feel this if just listening to a musical is going to give me the effect that i really want you know like am i really going to learn to love it but the thing is everybody that i know has only pretty much just listened to it right and that's how they fell in love with it um

this was funny to me because a couple maybe like a week or so ago uh adina kind of came across hamilton for the first time um i think she saw some some links to something and we will she was showing me some youtube videos like of the trailer and the promo of the broadway show um and as literally as soon as it is possible for tickets to be purchased for the West End show, which will happen eventually, I will be buying them because I know how much of a hot ticket this show is.

So I'll be trying my level best to get tickets. I also did, we're watching House right now. We're going through all of House and we just got to the few uh sequence of episodes with is it lin-manuel what's his name manuel miranda that's it he's in some episodes of house uh and he's fantastic in them uh i'm very excited to see hamilton at some point um i plan to listen to it at some point um i am excited by the thought of it because so many of my friends love it I am fascinated by a few things so it sounds like Cameron McIntosh is going to bring it to the west end in London in in 2017

so next year sometime I'm fascinated to see how you in particular as an English person and the English people in general who love theater but also are the other side of the war being told in the story of Hamilton. The perspective, not how they will react to, oh, they're laughing at the king, oh, you know, but how they will react just because it's not a part of their story that they're told as a child, like it is in America. And so, I'm going to be fascinated by the kind of international reactions to this american american musical it's an intro it'll be interesting i think it might work and and i read the reason i think it might work very well is the book of mormon the book of mormon was incredibly popular here like it has been everywhere else it's gone and the average

british person knows nothing about mormonism right and it's also a very american focused musical but we love it for that because we laugh at that yeah sure well i mean les miserables is about the french revolution and it has played successfully everywhere and i'm sure the the the french have a different perspective on it but that's you know but it's fine so um and there's some definitely some lamest moments in hamilton anyway people cross promotion people should check out pod for ham which is at the incomparable.com slash pod for ham or you can just go to the incomparable.com and uh you'll see it there and it's a weekly podcast about the musical hamilton taking it one track at a time from the cast recording so uh it's a weekly podcast about the musical Hamilton taking one track at a time from the cast recording.

So it's different panels every week, but we've been doing that in the incomparable world. We're getting close to the end of Act 1 now, and if we do one track a week, we'll be done before the end of the year with the entire 40-some tracks on the cast recording. So that will also be on our show notes, which you can find at relay.fm

slash upgrade slash 90. Big 9-0 today. our show notes, which you can find at relay.fm slash upgrade slash 90, big nine zero today. We've been doing this show for a long time. We're approaching episode 100 before you know it. Imagine if we were, if we were John Syracuse or Marco Arment, we would be 10 episodes away from retirement. Oh,

don't leave me, Jason. We're not, we're not. Thank you so much to text expander and Pingdom for sponsoring this week's show. If you want to find jason online head on over to the incomparable.com and sixcolors.com for jason's other work uh he does also host clockwise and liftoff on relay fm very embedded here and we love that

very much if you want to find jason on twitter he is at jason l j s n e double l i am at i mike i m y k e um we don't say stuff like this very often. Recommend the show if you enjoy it to people. We would love that. If you just tell a friend, maybe you could leave a review for us in iTunes, or even recommend the show in Overcast. I don't think I've ever said those words on this show before,

like all of that stuff, so it's only one time. Go and do it. Or, go sign up to be a member. Relay.fm membership. Just go check all that sort of stuff out we'd love you forever thank you so much for listening as always and we'll be back next week until then say goodbye mr snow aloha hello goodbye