Upstream - A Socialist California w/ Ramsey Robinson

Episode Date: April 21, 2026

In this episode we're joined by Ramsey Robinson for a conversation exploring the need for socialism in California (and beyond). Ramsey Robinson is a mental health social worker, organizer, and revolutionary based in San Francisco. He is running for Governor of California with the Peace and Freedom Party. The conversation begins with Ramsey discussing what compelled him to run for Governor of California with the Peace and Freedom Party, and in doing so we outline many of the problems facing US society—problems that stem from the concentration of wealth and power in the hands of one class and with the problems coming from this arrangement falling disproportionately onto the rest of us. We introduce the topic of liberation psychology and talk about how it has influenced Ramsey's work and politics—looking at how the mental health crisis in America is fueled by capitalism and what can be done about it. Ramsey then tells us about the Peace and Freedom Party—giving us a sense of its roots and also contrasting it with the Democratic Party, which Ramsey describes as being captured by the same ruling class that is responsible for all of our problems In opposition to this vision, Ramsey shares with us his vision of what a socialist California could look like and how we can get there.  Further resources: Ramsey4gov.com Peace and Freedom Party Related episodes: Voting for Socialism w/ Claudia De La Cruz & Karina Garcia Battling the Duopoly w/ Jill Stein Righteous Indignation, Love, and Running for President w/ Dr. Cornel West A Marxist Perspective on Elections w/ August Nimtz Intermission music: "Rich People" by Carsie Blanton Upstream is entirely listener funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants—just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. Subscribe to our Patreon for bi-weekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, and for Upstream stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Through your support you'll be helping us keep Upstream sustainable and helping to keep this whole project going—socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund so thank you in advance for the crucial support. patreon.com/upstreampodcast For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Instagram and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

You know, when we realize that we're all connected, it's us on this side. It's not the Democrats and Republicans split. It's the 40 million of us in California on this side and the 194 murderers, thieves, the billionaires on the other. When we realize that it's us on this side, this is when we continue to build this movement to get the change that we need. And that's really our message is that when we unite like this in this movement that the Peace and Freedom Party is a part of, this is how we start to take back the power that

we need to survive and thrive here and how we can really alter international relations as well between California. I mean, think about how other countries would regard us when they see how we're treating our own people. You know what I mean? So this is the struggle we're involved in. And we know that we come from a long line of warriors and strugglers that we're a part of that show us the way and the way to get what we need is through this mass movement. You're listening to Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. Upstream.

A show about political economy and society that invites you to unlearn everything you thought you knew about the world around you. I'm Robert Raymond. And I'm Della Duncan. As yet another election year looms closer, you could be forgiven if your response is that of, well, dread. Who wants to go through the same circus show again, right? Knowing for a certainty that the outcome of whatever meaningless, battle between the same two ruling class puppets with different letters branded below their names, the outcome is going to be the same. Nothing will change, and actually, if anything, things will get worse.

But it's also true that elections or times when the most number of people in American society start to think, even if it's just a little bit, about the structural forces that shape their lives. And as socialists, it's an ideal time to take to the Rostrum and spread our message, because even though we aren't afforded the same exposure as the capitalist class as candidates, we have a weapon that they don't. The truth. In this episode, we're joined by Ramsey Robinson for a conversation exploring the need for socialism in California and beyond.

Jamesy Robinson is a mental health social worker, organizer, and revolutionary based in San Francisco. He's running for Governor of California with the Peace and Freedom Party. And before we get started, Upstream is entirely listener funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants, just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. Subscribe to our Patreon for bi-weekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, and for stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers.

Through your support, you'll be helping us keep upstream sustainable and helping to keep this whole project going. Socialist Political Education podcasts are not easy to find, so thank you in advance for the crucial support. And now, here's Delham, in conversation with Ramsey Robinson. Ramsey, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome. We always have our guests introduce themselves. So would you mind introducing yourself and share what inspired you to run for governor of California? Well, first of all, amazing to be here and talk with you this morning today. You know, if you are what you repeatedly do, as Socrates says, then the thing that I've done the most in my life over and over again is be a worker. And not just a worker, but a worker in crisis. And obviously, I'm not alone in that. You know, the 40 million of us that are here in California know what it's like to be in crisis. I mean, we have billions of dollars stolen from us in wage theft every year, right? Seven billion,

actually. We have over a million of us that are behind on rent. We have tens of thousands of us that are being evicted. We have two and a half million of us that don't have health insurance. And I've never been on the outside looking in with this. You know, I've been on the side of like the half of California that is living paycheck to paycheck. And I know deeply in my bones what it's like to struggle as a worker. And this, as I think it does over and over again, whenever folk like us, working people like us, face oppression that we are, we certainly experience in this economic and political system that we live under. it engenders this feeling, this emotion, this urge to fight back. And that's what I want to do.

I'm running as a Peace and Freedom Party candidate for Governor of California because this is a way to fight back against the crisis that so many of us face here in California. And not only did I have that urge to fight back, I started as an organizer to feel the power of organizing with other people together. So it's one thing for me to just feel that anger in my body about like, you know, you're working full-time jobs, sometimes two jobs, and you're still not even able to afford rent and health insurance at the same time. And then it's another thing to just like take that energy and know, oh, there's people that have been, are and will be organizing to make things better for folk like us. And I start to experience that in a very tangible way.

I'm up here in the Bay Area in San Francisco. and when Banco Brown, which is a trans brother, got shot, I was part of organizing hundreds of people out in the streets. That, that were able to put pressure, real pressure on the DA, Brooke Jenkins, and we got that footage released of the murder, the unjust murder of Banco Brown. And so to start to feel, oh, wow, okay, this is what happens when we click up and fight back.

It was a very formidable experience for me. And, you know, a little bit after that, October 7th, happened and I was part of seeing and organizing with people again just here in the bay area tens of thousands of people that flooded civic center if you remember and seeing how we forever forever changed the narrative of Palestine together and we were able to point out that it's our money it's our tax dollars that are going every year under the democrats and the republicans both you know to fund a genocide so seeing that organizing with other people such a formidable experience.

And then, you know, now I'm a mental health social worker. I went back to school 40 years old. And I'll tell you, I wasn't slick getting that college degree and thinking that I was going to avoid anything. Just for me personally, I'm still, you know, in a state of crisis in a certain sense. And for sure, the children that I work with, I'm at a high school, so 14 to 18-year-olds, I see so clearly that it is this, the system that we live under that is really responsible. the underpinning of the mental health problems that they have.

You know, I do therapy with them. And, you know, I'm working with a freshman right now who is already referred for anxiety that's coming from the inside out, who is already trying to make the very difficult transition of being a junior high schooler to high school. But then he has this extra layer of anxiety from the top coming down on him because his mama is three months behind in rent and she's having to get him into the job market, you know, to help close that gap. She's in a very desperate situation. He's not only picking up on her stress, you know, but he's also having this added stress of being a high school

student and working as a freshman. And this is an example of how, wow, if this family had what our campaign is advocating for, that with just a permanent tax on the billionaires, that she would have a guaranteed union job at $30 an hour, that she would have a guaranteed union job at $30 an hour, that she would have guaranteed housing where we freeze the rents. And the governor does have the mechanisms to do that. Of course, we know Newsom is not doing that. You know, these are the things that would completely transform the landscape of mental health in California. Of course, everywhere if we had this, and there's no reason that we can't.

So, and I do have to mention, too, again, as a worker, you know, just the ground downness that you start to experience under capitalism, even if you don't know that it's capitalism yet. I mean, I was working through COVID. I was deemed an essential worker, and I will never forget that the orders that we had, they tripled, you know, because people were locked inside. They needed what we had. And we were so, like, just worn down by trying to catch up to all this work. We're working three times as hard. But I remember the owner of the business came out after about a week or two and was

clapping, had a big old smile on her face. and she's like, thank you so much for the hard work that you are doing. And I want to thank you with a pizza. And it might seem monoculous. But this was one of those first times that I realized, oh, you could call it surplus value, you know, intellectually. But no, this is what it is. We're coming in here and we're just broken off just enough to survive.

And we can talk about what that survival looks like for me and my coworkers at those times. But then all the wealth that we're creating on top of that, it's all going to just a few people and how disproportionate that is. And that's when I start to realize it's, you know, you make those connections that health care, housing, employment, the war on black America on our black communities that as a black person I experienced for, you know, and still do experience, the war on our immigrant communities, what's going on in Palestine and Cuba and Venezuela and Iran, these aren't separate unrelated issues. You know, these are. These are interrelated crises.

And I think the hope that we have is that there's a common source that we can point to with this. And that is the billionaires and the system that they represent and just the power. And this really is what got me, you know, motivated to run as the Peace and Freedom Party candidate for governor, the power of the idea that folk like us are the ones that control the economy and the politics, you know, that we're not looking at someone else. that all through my travels now for this campaign, overwhelmingly, I would even say 99.9% and maybe even 100% of the people that I talk to in my personal life on the campaign know that how we would

plan that economy and use that political power. And that's to make sure our basic needs are met. And that socialism, of course, and the idea or the reality that the Peace and Freedom party is the only socialist party with ballot status in California. Wow. Okay, this is another arena. This is another aspect in an overall struggle that's been going on really since, you know, the haves and the have-nots started. This is a way that we can reach people with socialism and gather people unite our forces so we can put pressure just like we did on Brooke Jenkins. We upscale that to the billionaires, you know. Do we upscale that to the system?

And that's why I'm running. And I know that's a mouthful, and I'm sure we'll be able to unpack that a little more. But, you know, for surely, if folks want to learn more about our platform, please go to Ramseyforgov.com. And I'm looking forward to unpacking more this with you this morning. Yeah, what a great introduction to our conversation. We will absolutely go into many of those themes, the heartbreak and the root causes, the systemic alternative, the history of the Peace and Freedom Party, and, you know, the vision for a socialist California. we get there. So let's dive in. So this show is called upstream. And you may be familiar because I believe it comes from public health. It's the parable where you're standing at the bank of a river and you see bodies floating by drowning. You jump into help and pull them to shore, but you look up and there's

more bodies floating by the river drowning. So eventually some of you have to go upstream to figure out why are folks falling in in in the first place. So the first question for you is what is it that's breaking your heart right now as you sit here today in March, 26. So what is breaking your heart right now? And what do you find when you go upstream? Yes. Well, what's breaking my heart right now is the proactive, intentional, not by accident, wars that we're experiencing. And, and, you know, I think that our mind, when I say that our mind can easily jump to the war against Iran right now, which, of course, is a completely unpopular war. But I also mean, the wars that we are facing right here domestically,

there is a proactive war on black America and our black communities. Obviously, you know, we are seeing all across the country now, we saw on January 30th, there's a proactive war against our immigrant communities and that it, on the one hand, that it just seems relentless, that like as a black American, you know,

I know the history of the war against our people for centuries now that this is. has been going on. Centuries. I mean, the war on immigrant community, this is not something that just started with Trump. You know, remember, it was Obama that deported more immigrants during his first term than Trump did. And, you know, me being in my 40s and living through the war in Iraq, which of course was,

well, I don't want to say, of course, but was unpopular then. And then now this continuation of just, it seems like they're just exerting more and more pressure on our necks, on our lives. I mean, it really, you talk about heartburn. break. It breaks the heart. But on the other hand, well, actually to stay with the heartbreak a little, because I think that's okay. You know, it's okay to feel the pain and know what a motivator that can be. And every day, you know, I see that war enacted with the children that I work with. And here's the thing. These are, like we're saying, they're not separate issues, you know, the war on black America,

the war in an immigrant communities, they're fused with the wars that we see overseas. And as I mentioned, live in Bayview Hunter's Point. And as you may know, this was 80 years ago where the Navy built a shipyard and employed black people to do that, which is, it's a shame that, you know, this is the jobs available for black people to have to be in the war machine. But that's it. That's another thing that we can even get into. But then they build these ships. And then the U.S. military, the imperialists, they use these ships to test the atomic bombs that eventually they did drop on Nagasaki Hiroshima. That's what they did right out of Hunter's Bayview Point. Those ships came back. They rinse them off. Black people rinse those ships off. And that radioactive waste is still in the

soil right now. Every day that I walk up, I take the 38 bus to the 15. And when I get at the top of Bayview Hunter's Point, you could look at up the sundial and I look over. It's so gorgeous. And that's where the land is seeped with this radioactivity that still affects the children that I work with now. The children that live in Bayview Hunter's Point have 10 times the rate of asthma than any other child in the city. The women that live in Hunter's Point, Bayview, have five times the breast cancer than anywhere else, any woman, anywhere else in San Francisco. And this is, again, if we talk about upstream, and I remember, you know, to keep it a buck, I remember just this morning, I was remembering one of my first social work classes talked about that analogy. And it's so powerful. Because when we start to, we see these bodies floating, right?

We see people drowning, you know, metaphorically drowning in California. 15 million of us are drowning in medical debt, you know, as an example. Half of us live paycheck to paycheck. And we scurry to the top. Who do we see? We see the billionaires. In California, there's only 194 of them. And that these are the people that are responsible for the suffering that I see in Bayview.

And they're also responsible for the people who are spending a billion dollars a day for the war against Iran. People who we have everything in common with, the working people of Iran, the people of Iran, and we have nothing in common with these billionaires, you know? And so to see that they're the ones responsible for it, I mean, that's a powerful thing to know what we're up against. And what we're saying is we're going to proactively fight back against these wars, on our black communities, on our immigrant communities worldwide. And, you know, again, I think when we talk about war and we think internationally, well, California can play a hand in that, especially a socialist. I would say only a socialist California can do that because we will

divest the calpers, the calcers for those that don't know, these are the California pension funds that are holding an unimaginable amount of wealth. I mean, almost inconceivable. They have about $500 billion. And not all of that, but some of that wealth, that is pension funds, are going to the Israeli apartheid state. They're going to companies like Elbit that make the drones that drop the bombs on innocent Palestinian children. It's going to Caterpillar, invested, I should say, in Caterpillar that makes the bulldozers that knock down the homes of people that are being displaced, you know? And we will divest that. We can invest that. And this is a way that we will not tolerate a government that's really, these actions are

completely illegal in an international scale. So we're not going to allow California to break international law. But I mentioned this is because this is how we can fight back and change things. Because the war on us, working people, it doesn't stop at the border. You know, it's international. And again, in connecting our struggles, connecting our fights, that's how we can start to challenge and contest this power and make sure that we start to have the peace that we deserve. If we talk about war and what's the opposite, peace is, you know, having guaranteed jobs, knowing that you're never going to be evicted, knowing that if you hurt yourself, you are not going to be plunged into poverty. That's peace. And that's the California that we're

building. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for going deep into the pain for what's happening in the world, the grief, and I agree that can be both connecting and galvanizing for our work in the world. And then also illustrating how interconnected all these issues are and how interconnected California is with what's happening in the world. And, you know, to bring up another connecting element to mental health or social work, I want to bring up the topic of liberation psychology. Because when I read about your background, when I heard your previous interviews, I thought, Ooh, I wonder about liberation psychology and your personal story and in your work. So my understanding is that it's a movement for therapy and mental health to not just alleviate

personal stress, but to really liberate minds to understand systemic causes and conditions for our personal suffering. So that seeing that political education and mental health is actually a tool for liberation. So how does liberation psychology inform your day-to-day work with students as a social worker, but also your role as running for governor? I got plunged into the absolute life and death necessity of liberation psychology. I had a very good education. I went to Cal State Los Angeles, and there's a lot to say about that,

about how much it costs us Californians to just go back to school and get an education. But to be frank, I didn't learn about liberation psychology in school. But I tell you, I'm in my fourth year now being a mental. health clinician, and there's no way around it now, it is clear as day that unless we get to the system, the core root of the problems, just even saying the mental health issues that we face, that our mental health is going to continue to decline in California nationally, internationally. If we talk about who's at the top of that upstream, it's the billionaires and the imperiless, they're the ones that are really responsible for the mental health that we suffer through.

And gosh, it's so clear when you start to work with children that are coming to your office and telling you, A, I'm really stressed out, I got kicked off the basketball team. And you're like, oh, okay, this is maybe some teenager stuff. Let me explore. You know, and you say, oh, what happened? I missed practice. Okay, let's see. Let's see how this is going to unfold.

How come, you know, the magic question in therapy. How come? It was because I couldn't sleep all night. I was so anxious thinking about, I'm three months. from graduating and I have no idea how I'm going to take on the responsibilities I have to take care of my mama, my little sister. This is an actual, I'm not making this up, this is an actual thing, you know, again and again, another brother that's a senior that's telling me, hey, listen, Mr. Robinson, like, you know, I want to work, but there's all kinds of work out there,

above the board and below the board. And I want to be above the board, but working at Target is not going to pay the bills for me and my family, you know. And so you start to see, oh, wow, this anxiety, this depression that they're experiencing, this is not, this is not from the inside out type depression and anxiety, which there absolutely is. And there will always be needs for social workers and mental health clinicians in a socialist society. But this is, I think it's a really, it's a wake-up call for us to know that, okay, we need to change something. And what are we going to change? We are going to permanently tax the billionaires to make sure our mental health and our physical well-being is completely taken care of. And our mental health, and our mental health,

and our physical well-being is not looked at as a commodity like the billionaires look at everything meaning it's not looked at it as a way for the insurance companies the blue shields right the etnas that are getting rich off of our sickest days they're like vampires sucking us dry already when we're sick you know these are the people that we're up against and the system that we're up against and we're saying that we can in a mass movement of people that the peace and freedom party is bringing together, we can contest this and we can fight this. And what we're saying is we will pass CalCare and some. We will take it even for Calcare is a bill basically for those who don't know. It's a single payer health care system, which means your insurance is free and universal. And in California, with that

permanent tax on the billionaires, it will fund free universal health care that covers everything, that covers mental health, that covers reproductive care, gender affirming care, and that covers everybody. I was, we were just in San Jose, it was about two-hour drive from where I live, and I was talking to an undocumented brother, and he was saying his Medi-Cal just got cut. Like, immigrants had it for a little while, now they don't. So in one week, this person's life is completely transformed. And we're going to make sure that the 1.8 million undocumented workers that produce $8.5 billion of tax revenue, but are cut out of the programs that they help fund. We're going to make sure that they have access to health care too because whether it's

health care or housing, these aren't luxuries. The capitalists want us to think that these are some things that need to be earned, that need to be paid for. These are human rights. And we can bring this about in California today if we had the political will to do it. You know, so this crisis, it's not in people's heads. You know, again, there are biological mechanisms that are play that lead to the mental health issues that I diagnose and assess and treat, but then there's so much that that is not in our head and that it's because of this crisis that we're in because of just these 194 billionaires, that the amount of children that go to my school, about 200, that's the amount of people that are destroying these kids' lives, that are making it impossible for us to even afford

to live in California. And it's not by accident that they hoard one point trillion dollars. It's theft. and we are building a movement to take that back. We're not playing around. Yeah, I really hear that, you know, sitting there with a person facing a mental health crisis, it's like, yes, occasionally it can be there, you know, what's going on for them as a teenager

or, you know, imbalances in hormones and all those kind of things. But so often it really is the systemic causes and conditions. And I love that you're saying, you know, I'm in a step beyond my role as a social worker and really prescribe the things that would alleviate that deeper systemic stress and, you know, anguish that people are feeling. So thank you for sharing that. And let's go into the movement. So you're right that many folks may not know about the history, the beautiful history of the Peace and Freedom Party. And also, you know, why the Peace and Freedom Party and not Democrat and

Republicans. So can you just lay out for us, you know, that choice of why the Peace and Freedom Party and share a little bit about its history. No, thank you. I think you use the word beautiful, and it absolutely is. So the Peace and Freedom Party was formed in the summer of 1967 in California, and this is when, as we talk about how history is repeating itself, although history changes with our inaction on it, but this is during the Vietnam War.

And the Vietnam War was coming at a time where the advent of television was really starting to saturate into culture, and people were seeing really for the first time day in and day out the horrors of what was going on in Vietnam. And, you know, maybe a trigger warning, but, you know, we were seeing children's flesh being peeled off of their body. We were seeing people getting shot in the head point blank range. I remember being a child and seeing these images obviously 30, 40 years after, but how they're just like etched in our collective memory. And it was people that was just like us, just like me and me. you, just like the listeners that are listening to this podcast that were like, I don't want any part

of this. I don't want my brothers, my sisters, my siblings, my parents going to fight in this war, and I certainly don't want my tax money to be going there. And they said, we have to do something. And I think this is really key, and it really speaks to the importance of an independent party and an independent movement, because the Democrats weren't even running an anti-war candidate. So you couldn't go to the ballot box and say, okay, at least I can vote for this person who is against the war, whether win, lose, or draw. You know, that option wasn't there. So as folk like us, as working class people always do, when we are oppressed, we resist and we fight back. And the anti-war movement started the process of creating the Peace and Freedom Party.

And two months before the deadline, they needed 67,000 signatures. And you know how many they had? They had 20,000. And what they did was, I think, so crucial to what we're seeing now and how we fight back against the same upstream enemies that we're talking about, the billionaires, the imperialists, is they connected our struggles. And they linked up with the Black Panther Party, which was a socialist party, which also like us guaranteed jobs that demanded that the war on our black communities stopped. And when there was time to get those signatures, they had 200,000 signatures. and the Peace and Freedom Party was born, and we've been able to continue ballot status all that time.

And like I mentioned, we are the only explicitly socialist party with ballot status. And I think that's so important because socialism is what we need to win. And that's why I'm running with the independent party that's unlike the Democrats and the Republicans that are, they're in bed with those billionaires that are sitting upstream, you know, puffing on cigars. drinking martinis, watching our lives disintegrate from above, right? The Democrats and the Republicans are the parties that are literally fused with those billionaires, and they're bought off by the billionaires.

As a matter of fact, the billionaires have spent just last year alone $540 million, of really of our money when you think of it. We say bribe, but you could say lobby, the Democrats and the Republicans, really in California, the Democrats that keep everything as it is. And we don't want everything as it is. We are tired of these billionaires and they're huge corporations that get to dictate, capture the Democratic Party, right?

There's no part of that system that is for black liberation. What do the Democrats do as a party, you know, as opposed to the peace and freedom party, they say, hey, just be peaceful, stay at home, this will work out, right? What were they saying to us on January 23rd? when hundreds of thousands of folk, just like us in Minneapolis, flooded the streets and said, no, we're saying no, no more ice murders, ice out of everywhere. The Democrats were saying, oh, just come on now, you don't have to do this. We're not ready for this.

So we see the necessity of breaking with the Democrats now. I do have to share personally because this really means a lot to me. I mean, I'm in my 40s. And, you know, my daddy's black. My mom was white. But when you're in a black household, you don't even think about it. You're told the name. that the Democrats are for working class people and for black people. And I remember when Bill Clinton was first elected, and they were calling him, it was a joke, but they were saying he was the first black president. And I don't know some of us, or maybe my age, remember images of him with sunglasses, playing the saxophone, which is really insane right now when you think about what this man has done.

And what has he done? He passed a crime bill when he was in office, written by Biden, I might add, I do want to add, that dispopperperperperper. partially through black and brown bodies in jail, in prison. And I have family members right now that are feeling the reverberations of that crime bill. You know, I have family members that are plunged into a deeper level of poverty when Clinton slashed, slashed welfare, as we remember that he did. That he fired 500,000 federal jobs.

You know, if you're a black person or working class people, you know that those federal jobs transform families' trajectories to have a good. Clinton, it sounds like we're talking about Trump right now. Clinton did that. You know, up to Obama. I was there when Obama was, you know, sworn in, and I was standing there right with my father, and we did feel the sense of hope.

And then what happens? What happens? The story unfolds and reveals itself that no matter who you are, well-intentioned or not, if you're in the Democratic Party, you are directed by the billionaires. And what happened with that? The billionaires that make billions of dollars off of war, well, we bomb Libya.

You know, Obama was swept up in that where he's partially responsible for the deaths of black people. Obama deported more immigrants than Trump did during Trump's first election, election cycle. So these are things that like when I see the children that I work with, And they're coming in crying because their mama was taken away. This happened. Crying because they're just afraid of their families being pulled apart. This is personal to me as well. And this is why there's no way that I can run with anyone else but the Peace and Freedom Party.

Because the Peace and Freedom Party is nodding to history and showing. Look at what the abolitionist movement. You know, people just like you and me, of course, if we were back in that time, you know we would be anti-slavery. And they didn't wait on the Democrats. They knew that they had to form their own movement independent from that. And they did. At first, they formed the Liberty Party. Then they formed the Free Soil Party.

Then they formed the Republican Party, which was a lot different than as it is now. And we can go back into history and talk about that too. And at the time, they were saying, oh, well, that's a marginal party, you know. But they won. On the one hand, of course, slavery was abolished. And on the other hand, I think it's actually really important to note historically that we freed ourselves. that there's letters between Lincoln and Grant that say if 200,000 black men didn't take up arms and join the Civil War that the South would have won.

So I mentioned that to say that, yes, like the Peace and Freedom Party is waging a struggle and a movement with the ballot box, but also, just like in the Civil War, just like in the civil rights era, it's a mass movement of us that are being caught up that's really going to put pressure on these people that are responsible for the suffering that we're having. And, you know, just in short, the billionaires got their own two parties. The billionaires have both the Democrats and the Republicans and we need our own party. And that is the Peace and Freedom Party. Because you're never going to be able to rebuild or remodel a house, the Democratic House, say, that was designed from its foundation to keep you out. You need your own house. And that's why I'm just so proud

and honored to be able to run for governor of California with the Peace Supreme Party because the legacy that we're talking about that it comes from and the legacy that we're continuing on in real life fighting for real concrete changes to our existence as the 40 million Californians that make everything run. They make California the fourth largest economy in the world that have an ongoing $4 trillion economy that can meet all of our needs, but it's us that need to control the wealth. You're listening to an upstream conversation with Ramsey Robinson, candidate for governor of California with the Peace and Freedom Party. We'll be right back.

Seems like bad news all the time. We got blood and fires and water. They try to tell me who I ought to blame, but I know who it is because it's always the same. But don't be ashamed if you get confused when you talk to your friends or you watch the news. They tried to tell you where it all went wrong Now you don't need to all you just sing this song It was rich people stacking the dick Rich people with big fat checks

Rich people they're having a ball Rich people been fucking us all In 1979 The Western world was in decline So Ronald Reagan and Thatcher too Well, they fixed it right just for rich people stack in the deck Rich people with big pack checks Rich people they're having a bar

Rich people didn't fucking a song taxes Who took your job? It ain't immigration It's rich people with corporations And who threw the vote? It ain't rednecks Rich people with big back checks Rich people stacking the dick Rich people with big fat chicks

That was fucking us all Rich people Stack in the dick Rich people with a big fat chick People been fucking I saw That was Rich People by Carsey Blanton Now back to our conversation with Ramsey Robinson

So let's talk about another victory the recent victory of Mom Dani in New York City. So tell us the story of his campaign and the victory from your perspective. And what do you see as the lessons, the possibilities, but also the challenges for your campaign? Yeah. Mom Dani's victory is so hopeful for us and reassuring for us that believe that working people should and can't have economic and political power and that our situations can change. It just shows that millions of people are ready for change. You know, Mom Donny's victory showed us that the decades of lies that the billionaires upstream again,

the people at the top have told us about socialism, that socialism is dead, that socialism is a thing of the past, that socialism was tried and failed. It shows that that that's not true. And it shows that the actuality of living in just take a California where we use through a permanent tax on the billionaires, the trillions of dollars that we have to meet our guaranteed needs, like Mom Dani was saying, in part, guaranteed housing, health care, education from cradle to college, guaranteed union jobs at $30 an hour, child care, a dignified retirement. This is what the piece of freedom party is advocating for, is fighting for. And of course, so much of that lines up with Mom Dani. And not just mom Dani, again, it's that Mom Dany reflects this swell of people just like us that are

it's time for socialism in our lives, you know, and are never going to go back on that, you know. And we're seeing with the Peace and Freedom Party, I'm just really proud to mention, is the fastest growing political party in California. And I think that shows, you know, the power that socialism has. And, you know, I think that the political establishment, the corporate media, they want us to think that socialism is dead because they want to, like, funnel us back into the Democratic Party. because they know if they can contain us back in the Democratic Party, you'll be completely impotent again, you know?

And I also think about some of the challenges that may be happening with having a very good intention politician with Mamdani, but just in a, like, rotting and decomposing political party. And, you know, so I think it also shows that we are really going to have to have our own party here and continue to build an independent movement. And I think that's really important because if we talk about Mamdani, it really goes back to the people, right? It's the people that are going to keep them accountable,

and it's the people that drove that, and that's exactly what's going to happen for us to get any changes, you know, because we know the greatest changes that we've had in society have come through struggle. It hasn't come through the ballot box, you know? But there's no way that we can't use the time of the elections to make sure that we reach people with a socialist message because all eyes are on the elections,

and we tell them that, wow, We can get this cracking right here in California with a $4 trillion economy. So again, you know, the fact that it's 40 million of us workers in California that create all that wealth and that we should control it, I think it speaks to the people are embracing this now. It speaks to the power that socialism is like literally sweeping the nation from the east coast to the west coast and stops in between. We know that in Washington state.

We've seen the same thing now. So it's an incredibly hopeful time for us that we want to continue this momentum with the Vote Socialist California campaign. Yeah, and so let's dive in more to socialism. So we interviewed Jason Hickle recently, who brought in this really great quote. He said, we must fight a system with a system. And I just really love that, that it's like these small reforms or policies or worker cooperatives, like they can be really helpful, but it's a system that will fight a system.

So to bring in another quote, a socialist and liberation theologist, Dom Helder Kamara, once said, when we are dreaming alone, it is only a dream. When we dream with others, it's the beginning of reality. So I'm wondering if you can share with us the dream of a socialist California that you and your comrades are holding, that your campaign is really offering. So what would a socialist California look and feel like? Maybe describe a day in the life. Oh, that's an excellent question. Maybe I can take one of the children I work with in Bayview Hunter's point and just like kind of flesh out what a day would look for that child. Well, first of all, You know, when they wake up, say it's wintertime, they're going to be warm.

They're going to have central heating in like sustainably built public housing. We're saying that we're going to build 1.4 million units of public housing. They're not going to have to make the choice like people I know that live in Bayview of running the heat or getting groceries. Her older sister will have her own room. She's back from on winter break from college where college is completely free. her sister's not going to have to pay a penny to go to college. We know that it's not the world we live in now. We know that since 2000, the CSU system, their tuition has increased 250%.

You know, so she's going to have that dignity and security of an education of knowing who she is in relation to the world around her. Her mother is going to be in the kitchen with her daddy, and they're going to be getting breakfast for everyone and they're not going to be coming off of a mind-numbing soul-crushing swing shift where families right now, as it is, sometimes they're like two ships passing the night. They can't even spend time together. And, you know, as a social worker, we learned about attachment theory. And at an early age, the importance of a child being able to bond to at least one caregiver,

we know that under capitalism, that's so impossible for millions of families in California. But they're going to be able to spend time together because their mother and father, their caregivers are going to have union jobs at $30 an hour. they have economic and political power. They're going to be empowered to spend money on other things rather than the $22,000 a year that it costs families in California for child care, you know, so they're not going to be going broke with that. And, you know, that child is going to come to the high school I work with, and there's going to have all three meals provided for, not just one like it is now, which is at least two years ago was the same contractor that did prison food.

that child is going to link up with her home girl and they're going to walk in and they're going to know that both of them, if they've experienced trauma or loss and grief, that is such a part, unfortunately, under a capitalist system, but under socialism, they're going to know that their school is fully staffed with all the mental health social workers, all the counselors, all the teachers, all the nurses that they need. We know that that is not what it's like right now in our education system. We know that our schools are crumbling. And like I said, I go to school that has about 200 folks. My students, my coworker likes to joke about 199 of them need mental health services, you know, but we keep hearing it's not in the

budget, which in a $4 trillion economy, we know that's a lie, but you know they're going to get the services. The children aren't going to have PE one year, but then they had to cut the mental health budget, but then the next year they cut choir and bring PE back, like this back and forth with, it's like our schools can have everything they need. These children are going to have to be able to run around and stretch their bodies and get those good chemicals rolling in PE, the school that I work out, that was cut last year. But they're also going to have the mental health care that they're going to need. They're also going to have full access to all the after-school extracurricular activities that high schoolers need to survive and thrive. And it's going to be

a Bayview Hunter's point, like Richmond, like the Central Valley, that unlike now where it's drowning in pollution that have the high asthma rates that I mentioned, it's going to be clean, And it's going to be tens of thousands of people that are employed through our guaranteed jobs program that are going to have access to good, meaningful work, not throw away jobs, but like connecting the power grids that when we take over the investor-owned utilities and make it public and make energy clean and green for all of us, this is the world that we're going to live in. And I think that on a personal level, it's going to completely change the way that we interact with each other. if we're talking about dreaming of socialism.

And I think that very quickly, very quickly, when people here in California have a socialist California, and if we can imagine that upscale, hopefully as California goes, the whole nation goes, that would be amazing. But, you know, the way we relate to each other is going to be completely transformed. Because capitalism wants to put its hands on everything, every aspect of being a human being, and everything it puts his hands on, it corrupts, it corrods. It's like the opposite of the Midas touch, you know. So they take love, they take sex, they take entertainment, they take education, they take

homes, and they completely perverted and turn it upside down. So, yes, when we dream of a socialist California and a world, we dream of a way that our human interactions are not corrupted by capitalism and they're influenced by the idea that we all have enough to get by and so we don't have to pit each other against each other like the capitalists want to do. And I think it's just important to say that that that is what we're up against. We're in a historical drama in the process of our whole world transforming because more and more of us believe and know and are fighting that socialism is inevitable. But there's also villains in this drama. And they are these billionaires. In California, again, just 194. I want to keep saying

that because we need to realize like that's our source of power when there's just a small amount of them, 194, and there's 40 million of us that want this world that we're talking about that Camara dreams of that we all dream of. And by us getting together and connecting our struggles, when we get together in the millions, that's when the billioners get scared. And that's how we continue this push forward to the world that Camara and us that we dream of socialism. So such an inspiring vision. Thank you for sharing that. And I really feel the ease on the nervous system that day in the life of your student waking up and having what they need and being able to connect with their family and getting able to be creative and play at school and just having food and heat and all the things that they need. That's beautiful. So one thing I want to ask about are metrics because in capitalism there's very financialized. metrics, GDP, profit, et cetera. And one thing we need to do is really redefine, you know, what are our

metrics of success? So one thing I do is I'm part of the California Donut Economics Coalition, and we measure the health of California's economy using the donut, which is how well is California meeting the human needs and then how well is it staying within the needs of the planet? But there's many other movements, too, that are saying, you know, we need alternatives to GDP and we need to really measure what matters, right, and measure what's really truly important to us. So, you know, if you were to become governor and as you work in your campaign, what are the metrics that you think we ought to be paying attention to? What would indicate true progress or true success? And what metrics do we need to let go of? Do we need to release that are no longer serving us at this time?

The metrics that we would use and that we're using right now is really, you know, if you go to rancid forgov.com and you click on that and you see all of our platform points, those are the measures that we are using. Our metric would be, on the one side, is the number going down, currently, it's over a million of us that are behind on rent, is that metric going down. On the other hand, it's how closer we to building the 1.4 million beautiful public homes that we need to make sure that all of us have, you know, a roof overhead in a community that we're proud to live under, you know, that would be a metric. for us. How close are we to divesting these corporate landlords that come into our communities, the snatch up, I mean, you know, if you want to talk about villains, invitation home,

which is really a wolf and sheep's clothing for Blackstone. A lot of people have heard about that awful corporation. But they're, you know, snatching up tens of thousands of homes all across California, jacking up the rent, kicking out families, and then pocketing the money. Our metric would be year one, what's in their portfolio? See? capitalism call it portfolio. We know their homes. Year two, this is our literally our plan, some of our plan for housing, you know, they have to divest half of that portfolio, half of the homes back to the state of California. Year three, all of them are divested. And if they don't, the attorney general is going to assess penalties. And we have the constitutional authority,

as we know, to enforce eminent domain to take those back. That's a metric. Okay, how many of the 187,000 homeless people in California are put into the already existing? existing 1.2 million homes that are empty. That's a metric for us. And, you know, I don't think we have time to go through every platform to see it, but I do want to talk about maybe like health care as well, you know, a metric for us would be, okay, two and a half million of us in California, as we talked about before, don't have health insurance. I know people of my family that are in that category. A metric for us would be how are we doing, getting to 100% of California having health care because we are guaranteeing with that permanent tax on the billionaires that

all of us will have universal and free education, you know, and in short, yes, the metrics are what does our real life look like and not just numbers on a screen? How much have we reduced and really saved California environmentally, but like how much have we reduced pollution in our cities in California because we're having free and green public transportation? transportation, you know, fleets of buses and light rails and subways that are going to roll out that are electric, green, and clean, and free for all of us, you know? These are metrics. How many of the billionaires are we pushing out of these investor-owned utilities and making them public? So, it's the rate payers and the workers that can control how we provide energy, which is a human

necessity as well as food and shelter and education. So these are the metrics that we're doing. this is the way we're going to do it. And it's also, I think, really important to point out that the Democrats that have had the supermajority in the House and the Senate, when it comes to these metrics, they lie to us about them, right? What do they say? They say that we're in an upswing of the economy, you know? These are the lies that the Democrats are not able to peddle to us anymore, you know? And the way that they're keeping that California like that we're talking about as is, is by just straight up theft. These are gangsters and criminals, you know.

Like I might have mentioned, I think, in our opening, for the 40 million of us that create the $4 trillion economy, they steal $7 billion in wage debt from us. And, you know, I lived in L.A. County, in L.A. County, every month, $26 million is taken of wage theft. So I have a lot, like so many of us in California, a lot that's owed to us, you know. But these are the metrics.

How quickly can we implement reparations for black Californians, right, who have undergone centuries of wage theft from them, who have been redlined out of communities? How quickly can we make sure that they will have guaranteed cash payments and reparations? How does it look now that we have community control over the police? How does our California look now in a very concrete way? Are there less racist bills? Is it easier to get a job? Is it easier to get a home?

because with our State Department of Anti-Discrimination, we're going to have elected body of leaders that they get to read and review and veto if need, any racist or homophobic or transphobic or xenophobic law that comes through California. So these are the metrics that we can make, and it really ties into your last question about the California that we dream and build

because they go together. We have to, in short, we have to really work with what's in front of us, and we can't just be talking about these lives, of the billionaires of the market and where the market is right now and how that's good or bad for employment. We know in our bones that it's very hard to have and retain a job in California. But when we get together for this, this is how we're going to change those metrics, you know, because again, when we get together, those billionaires get scared and that's part of this

struggle for power that we're engaged in. Yes. And again, folks can see more of those policies and those metrics on the website, Ramsey 4. That's the number 4.gov. com. So one thing I wanted to ask about is kind of a little bit of a current event. We've had these calls that we may have a potential false flag attack in California, this idea that the, you know, U.S. government might have an attack in California and then blame it on another world power. But it really just speaks to both the like potential and power of California, but also its impact and influence. So can you just share about, you know, what, what you see is that potential or even that dynamic of California and the U.S. government,

particularly if it became socialist. And just this idea of how do we hold California in connection with the global systems? How do we be in solidarity with these movements abroad, but also be a part of the United States, which is so complex and challenging at this time? When that report came out, right, that Iran was going to launch drones to San Francisco and L.A. in particular, it really just shows the desperation that the billionaires and the Republicans, then Democrats, that really bowed down to them are in right now, because it's completely unfounded that that's happening. And it's such a clear example of how they need to lie to change the narrative to get away with the death and the exploitation and the extraction of wealth

that they're inflicting all over the world. You know, the LA Times said that they couldn't validate this. And we know that, unfortunately, corporate media is also in bed with those same billionaires. So it really just is, it's like these billionaires and the political parties, they're hanging themselves with their own rope when they, when they do things like this. Because like I said, you know, folks here, we know that we have everything in common with the people of Iran. We have everything in common with the people in Cuba that are still have 0% homelessness that still have free education, even though the U.S. is completely choking these people. I mean, they're enacting a genocide on them as well. And these are people that are just like

us. You know, we have everything in common with Venezuela because, you know, we also know that all the wealth and the resources that we have, like Venezuela has that oil. We're inspired by, you know, the people of Venezuela and their government that unlike the U.S. take all those natural resources and let it go just to a few people at the top, like we talk about upstream. Venezuela was taking the oil and making sure that everybody in society benefits from it. That resonates with us, you know? We don't resonate with these warmongers who are lying to us as they always do. They lied to us about Vietnam.

They lied to us about Iraq. They lied to us about Venezuela, about Cuba, about Palestine. And no matter how they try to lie again with Iran, we are not falling for. for it. And the fact that we're not falling for it is shown by how many people are coming out. I mean, we just know that the majority of us in America are against these wars, you know. And unfortunately, is these billionaires that are behind it, you know. But when Trump and the Israeli state has broken our own constitution, when they've broken international law, then California has a responsibility to not break that. And that's why we have to divest California.

from war. And as governor, and this is one of our platform points, is that we will, I know we talked about it before, but we will divest those billions of dollars that are going to war in Palestine. And, you know, I don't know if I broke it down, but, you know, that $32 billion that just the UC system is investing in, that can go to nine years of tuition for UC students, or that $32 billion can go to $160,000 homes being built in California. So we're not talking just lips, service like the Democrats do, then they say, oh, well, we're for a free Palestine too. We're really doing it in concrete ways by not being implicit in genocide or in war, but also by making sure that we build up our communities with that, because every dollar that is spent on war is a dollar

that is stolen from our communities. So it really points to, again, the need for a socialist system that uses the wealth that we have, the four trillion dollar economy, the fourth largest economy in the world that uses that wealth to meet people's needs for people, not the billionaires that are getting rich off of our backs, really. Like we said, this war that we see internationally, it's so mirrored by the wars that we're facing here on our black communities, our immigrant communities. And I mentioned that again, I think it's really important, is because when we connect these struggles, just like the Black Panthers did with the anti-war movement, when we realize Renee Nicole Good was murdered for defending a black community.

When we realized that Keith Porter was a black man that was shot by an off-duty ice agent, you know, when we realize that we're all connected, it's us on this side. It's not the Democrats and Republicans split. It's the 40 million of us in California on this side and the 194 murderers, thieves, the billionaires on the other. When we realize that it's us on this side, this is when we continue to build this movement to get the change that we need. And that's really our message is that when we unite like this in this movement that the Peace and

Freedom Party is a part of, this is how we start to take back the power that we need to survive and thrive here and how we can really alter international relations as well between California. I mean, think about how other countries would regard us when they see how we're treating our own people. You know what I mean? So this is the struggle we're involved in. And we know that we come from a long line of warriors and strugglers that we're part of the show us the way and the way to get what we need is through this mass movement.

Yes. So to close, I would love for you to lay out your invitations for those listening. It could be the big picture, but also the practical. Like, let's say someone's listening, they're fired up. Like, what can they do, both if they're in California, if they're in the United States, and even if they're abroad? Like, what can they do to really support this movement for socialism in California? And then the last thing to kind of close it, I would love for you to speak to anyone who really finds electoral politics to be hopeless for system change, who just feels like, this is not the way electoral politics, we need something else, movie revolution, something different. So closing invitations and then speak directly to

those who find electoral politics to be hopeless for systems change. Yes. Well, as we've been talking a lot during this interview, it takes a mass movement of folks like us getting together to enact this change. And so the call is for people to get involved. It's to register peace and freedom party, make that stand, register peace and freedom party, that independent third party that does not bow down to the billionaires, sign up to volunteer. We have people right now going all up and down California that are taking our message that is so straightforward and knocking on tens of thousands of doors in the next few months. I mean, you know, get involved. Get involved. Get out there. One of the greatest things that I hear, we were just in that event, I think I mentioned

in San Jose, is when I asked people, oh, how did you hear about this event? And so many people say, one, I saw it on TikTok or I saw it on Instagram. But two, the interesting thing is they're talking to me in real life. They came out, you know? And I think that's so important that we get involved like that because the Democrats and the Republicans, they want us to feel like we're isolated. They want us to be isolated. They don't want us talking to each other. They want us in our social media cave. And so the power of this campaign is that we're getting out together and we're spreading this very straightforward message of, hey, we have a four trillion dollar economy. Any concern that you have, anything that you think is important, whether it's housing,

health care, or whatever we're hearing, it can be solved by us getting together and having this permanent tax on the billionaires. So please go to ramsie forgov.com. That's where you can register Peace of Freedom Party. That's where you can volunteer, and that's where you can join the movement. And to your question about, you know, people who understandably are like, I don't know about politics anymore, you know, they're so disheartened by the way that things have been, or they think, oh, maybe we need revolution right now, as you had mentioned, you know. Well, we know that a prerequisite for real systemic change, right, is for us to raise socialist consciousness. And I say that for people who are already, we're already socialist in our hearts, you know,

like Fred Hampton said, socialism is the people. We know intuitively what socialism is as we broke down before, you know, but we need to give a clear definition of what socialism is and have people, you know, understand that we can have that. And electoral politics is an opportunity that we can't miss. You know, corporate media is starting to put focus on this. you know how we get down. Our family members, our coworkers, the time that elections come up, we start talking about

these issues. And there's a void that we have the opportunity to fill by sharing our socialist message. So there's no way that we wouldn't take that opportunity to talk about the keys to our cuffs, the life, the life that is the opposite, the counterpoint to the death the capitalism is is waging on our class, you know. and electoral politics historically have always been a time to contest power. We are really contesting power. They've always been an opportunity to see where folk like us are at.

Where is our class? How open they are to socialism. We should be very encouraged right now because 95 million Americans are open to the idea of socialism in a way that's never happened before. So for those who are maybe burnt out or not putting their faith in electoral politics, politics, just to remember that this is one of the components for our liberation and the amazing opportunity that we have to talk to people. I'll just end with this.

One of the most powerful things that I've experienced with this campaign is going and talking to various groups and we leave these events and people come up to me and say, you know, I didn't know what socialism was. I know what socialism is now and I'm about it. I mean, this is something that is really transforming the landscape of California. It's transforming our lives. And we need to use the electoral aspect of it to continue to do that. As we continue to draw in millions to build this mass movement, because as we know, you know, the fact that 194 people hoard $1.2 trillion, this isn't an accident.

You know, this is theft. And it's going to take a mass movement to get it back. You've been listening to an Upstream conversation with Ramsey Robinson, a mental health social worker, organizer, and revolutionary based in San Francisco. Ramsey is running for Governor of California with the Peace and Freedom Party. Please check the show notes for links to any of the resources mentioned in this episode. Thank you to Carsey Blanton for the intermission music. Upstream theme music was composed by me, Robbie. Upstream is entirely listener funded.

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