Upstream - COVID, Feminist Economics, and Democratic Socialism with Julia Salazar

Episode Date: April 21, 2020

Continuing our focus on the coronavirus pandemic and its intersection with capitalism, in this conversation we speak with New York State Senator, Julia Salazar, who represents New York's 18th district in northern Brooklyn, which includes the neighborhoods of Bushwick, Cyprus Hills, Greenpoint, Williamsburg, and parts of Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brownsville, and East New York. This pandemic has hit New York City harder than any other city in the world, and the neighborhoods represented by Senator Salazar are some of the hardest hit in New York City itself. We spoke with the Senator about how she got into organizing and politics, democratic socialism, feminist economics, and the economics of the coronavirus pandemic. This interview is part of a series of Upstream conversations about the coronavirus, capitalism, and potential systemic interventions and solutions during this challenging time.  This episode of Upstream was made possible with support from listeners like you. Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

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In this conversation, we speak with New York State Senator Julia Salazar, who represents New York's 18th district in northern Brooklyn, which includes the neighborhoods of Bushwick, Cypress Hills, Greenpoint, Williamsburg and parts of Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brownsville and East New York. and parts of Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brownsville, and East New York. This pandemic has hit New York City harder than any other city in the world, and the neighborhoods represented by Senator Salazar are some of the hardest hit in New York City itself. We spoke with the senator about the economics of the coronavirus pandemic and how she got into organizing, politics, and

democratic socialism. I would love by just starting by asking you to introduce yourself. How would you introduce yourself for the listeners? My name is Julia Salazar. I am the state senator for New York's 18th state senate district in Brooklyn. I live in Bushwick in North Brooklyn, and I am a democratic socialist and a member of the Democratic Conference in the state senate. I'm also the youngest woman to ever be elected in the history of the state senate.

So I'd love to hear about your journey to this place. So your journey into politics and particularly your journey to this place. So your journey into politics and particularly in relation to the Democratic Socialists of America. What was what were the reasons that it brought you to that that path in that profession? Back in 2016, when I was working as a community organizer, I became involved in the campaign to elect a democratic socialist, Latina, working class candidate running a really inspiring grassroots campaign against my predecessor for state Senate. Her name is Debbie Medina. And she was supported by what was then a small local New York City DSA chapter. And so that was my first introduction to DSA, also through Jacobin reading groups, where we would, you know, just gather typically

on a monthly basis at the Brooklyn Free School and discuss articles, readings, and sort of make democratic socialist ideology relevant to our daily lives. So that was really my first introduction to the DSA was doing electoral organizing for Debbie Medina's campaign. She ran a strong campaign, but ultimately lost her election and also decided not to run again. Over the next two years, I continued to be involved in DSA. And of course, DSA saw a huge membership boom after the 2016 presidential election. And so our chapter grew and our various work in the city grew. I was on the organizing committee of the Socialist Feminist Working Group, and we were focused on passing the New York Health Act to try to bring universal health care to New York State. I worked for a union during that time. I also worked for a nonprofit

as an organizer focused on criminal legal reform and police accountability policy. And so most of my time was spent between the organizing that I did for work and for DSA. And then in early 2018, some friends who I had organized with in DSA, who also live in Brooklyn, who I had organized with in DSA, who also live in Brooklyn, reached out to me and said, someone needs to run against Senator Dilan. And I said, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, it brought me back to, to Debbie's campaign. And I recognize the urgency of someone running, but never had I considered running for office, personally. And they said, well, you're the candidate. You know, you're the one that we want to run. And initially, I was a hard no.

I said, absolutely not, not going to run. But I recognized how important it was for someone to run. And so I began searching for a candidate who would be willing to run, knowing that we didn't have a lot of time because the election was coming up in September of 2018. And this was like late January. And in order to run a viable campaign, especially against an incumbent, the senator had been in his seat for more than 16 years. He had been in the city council before that. So really an entrenched incumbent and a machine politician. In order to defeat him, we would have to run, especially as a grassroots campaign,

we would need to build as soon as we could and really hit the ground running. When we weren't able to find a candidate, and additionally, when I asked people, they always would say, well, why don't you run? Eventually, I reluctantly said, okay, I know that we're going to have a movement behind us and also that the people in our district can't afford to wait another two years because we have elections for the state legislature every two years, we can't afford to wait another two years because of all of the challenges that our district was facing, especially being at the forefront of the affordable housing crisis and seeing enormous displacement and gentrification in North Brooklyn. So that's really, you know, it was housing justice was, I think, the biggest motivation for me to run, I think the biggest motivation for me to run, recognizing that the incumbent took more from the for-profit real estate industry than any other sitting Democrat in the state Senate, which says a lot because real estate money really has an outsized influence in New York

state politics. And seeing that our Senator was beholden to the very forces that have been driving people out, especially people of color. I mean, the majority of people in the district are black and brown communities. Seeing that the incumbent was complicit in the harm that our communities were experiencing, it was really, really critical to replace him and to do it with integrity to run a campaign that would always reject for profit real estate money, would always reject corporate PAC money, and really prioritize always being directly accountable to the working class district and the people who live here. Thank you. Wow. Yeah. Interesting story hearing like both the organizing and the interest in DSA,

the Jacobin Magazine reading groups, and then kind of reluctantly entering when you were called literally and very needed, it sounds like. I'm wondering about, you said in those reading groups and when you were joining DSA, there was a like, how to make sense of democratic socialist principles in your own life or like how to connect them. And I'm just wondering for folks listening who maybe don't know DSA that well, or even maybe are reluctant to think of the word democratic socialist, how did you go about the process of learning about the ideology and making sense of it in your own lived experience? Yeah, well, I grew up mostly in South Florida and mostly raised by a single mom.

I started working when I was 14 in the local grocery store. I worked in the service industry for restaurants and cafes through the time that I was in high school. And then I was fortunate enough to be able to move to New York as a teenager and go to Columbia. And when I was in college, what I found was there were, you know, Columbia is relatively diverse socioeconomically, identity wise, but it still is an, but in a place where the public schools compared to the quality of public school education in the Northeast, it's really lacking. So I found that I felt sort of inadequate, or at least that I was having to catch up to my peers. And additionally, most of them did not have to work. But I ended up working as a nanny and I worked as a nanny as a caregiver for a family of four throughout college. In the summers when the family would go away, I would do miscellaneous work. I would clean apartments, do some service industry work. And basically that experience, you know, I don't regret

the work experience that I had and how it led me to be in solidarity with other workers when I was in college. It was really what allowed me to develop class consciousness and to look around and say, it's frustrating that my peers don't have to work as hard as I do just to get on equal footing with each other. And from there, there were other students' campaigns going on in the community to organize workers, for example, at a local restaurant called Indus Valley, where the management were stealing tips from the workers. I later became, I worked for the UAW on a campaign to organize a union at Barnard College for the adjunct faculty. So really my own experience as a worker and my political education that I received both formally in the classroom in college, but also in my lived

experience. It's what motivated me to, while also reading Marx, reading Jacobin, being exposed to democratic socialism and to some, I guess, revolutionary politics, I developed my political consciousness and eventually found out about the Jacobin reading groups when I was living in Brooklyn, and still am living in Brooklyn. Oh, thank you. And yeah, I want to want to bring in this time that we're in currently, because I'm sure that there's many insights that you're having around those same themes now today during this time of the coronavirus. So I'd love to speak with you about how your own experience and now the work that you're doing pre-coronavirus and then how this impacts the work now. So maybe if we could start with this theme of class consciousness and how the virus is impacting different folks. It's an inequitable distribution of suffering that's being caused right now. So just wondering like what

you're seeing in terms, I know, and you're also in New York, right? And as Amy Goodman says, the epicenter of the coronavirus in the US. So just wondering what you're noticing about class consciousness and the effect of on labor in particular right now during the coronavirus. Sure. This public health crisis has had an enormous impact on most people and on our city as a whole in New York and our state, but especially an enormous impact on people economically. A ton of my constituents and people all over the city have been laid off or lost their jobs. Businesses have had to close for various reasons. And as a result, people are struggling. That's, of course, in addition to just the illness and death that is

surrounding us every day. We've now lost more than 10,000 people in the state to coronavirus. And that's unfortunately probably an undercount. In my district specifically, we've been hit very, very hard. In Brooklyn and Queens, we have the highest number of positive cases and also the highest number of deaths in the state, which it's safe to say in the country at this point. We initially didn't have data demonstrating exactly how this is impacting people by demographic. Even the data that we had showing where the impact is geographically in the city was sort of ambiguous. Now we are finally seeing more data and reporting on the impact in neighborhoods like Williamsburg, Bushwick, East New York, Cypress Hills, all of which I represent, part of Bed-Stuy, Brownsville.

And these are majority Black and Brown neighborhoods, overwhelmingly working class, and communities where a lot of people are on Medicaid and therefore receive services primarily at a couple, one or two safety net hospitals and only one public safety net hospital in our district, which is Woodhull Hospital. They're not receiving the resources that other more private hospitals, which have always had more resources than our public safety net hospitals, Woodhull is not receiving the resources that they are receiving. And as a result, that inequitable distribution of resources paired with the just higher vulnerability of communities that these hospitals serve is leading to the hospitals being overcrowded. They're having to prioritize people who have

coronavirus over people who also at the same time are experiencing other health conditions just as they normally would even without the public health crisis. And it's finally become apparent that because of the risk factors that exist in the environment that we as black and brown New Yorkers are forced to live in, because we are already tolerating those risk factors and at a higher risk for asthma, often for chronic illness, that's also making our communities more vulnerable. And now we know that the impact is real. It's showing in the number of people who are losing their lives and contracting the virus, even as we have typically less access to testing. I've heard very disturbing reports of people dying in their homes. And of course, all of the cases that I've heard about were in East New York or Brownsville, in some of the poorest communities in our city and in my district., what it's exposing is the problems that existed before this public health crisis. Also, it is not exclusively our communities that are being hit by this, even though we are being disproportionately impacted.

Because other communities, you know, the virus otherwise does not discriminate based on race or hardly even on age, despite what we originally thought that it was only really affecting seniors. We now know that that isn't true. It's certainly not true in New York City. The virus doesn't discriminate even based on socioeconomic status. on socioeconomic status. And so because the same challenges that our communities are facing are now shared by people across class boundaries and identity boundaries, it's considered a crisis. But we know here in Bushwick and Cypress Hills, we know that there was already an urgency and a crisis. It's a crisis that people were living paycheck to paycheck, unable to pay rent, that evictions were increasing, that people couldn't afford to go to the doctor. All of these things have been an ongoing crisis for our communities that could have been addressed

even with some of the responses that we've seen to the coronavirus, the emergency responses, that's action that if we just had the collective political will should have and could have been implemented before. And so I think it's exposing the policy failures and our failure as a society to take care of the most vulnerable people. What a time. What a time to be a senator as well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, exposing the policy failures. I hear that. And yeah, this kind of sense that we might return to normal, that once this is over, we'll go back to normal. What you're saying really

highlights that that might not be what we want. So that leads to what I'm seeing a lot is folks are speaking about kind of a dual choice now, whether to utilize this time to expose the policy failures, as you're mentioning, and to advocate for progressive policies that may not have even gotten much traction or attention before the coronavirus. And to kind of also, in terms of a more like qualitative felt sense to move towards disaster collectivism, this or disaster socialism, this kind of how can we emerge out of this more compassionate, kind, empathetic and solidaristic. And then there's also this other thing, which is disaster capitalism, and that we might actually see the erosion of our

liberties, not just for this time, but beyond this time, right? Like what if not gathering in spaces or kind of more police control becomes a regular feature, as well as the worry for things like land grabs and property acquisition right now, as you're saying, as folks are potentially evicted or really financially insecure. So I'm just wondering, how do you see this time in general? Does that kind of view make sense to you? And, you know, what demands do you feel that we could make now that maybe we weren't able to make before? We can have a response that is unsustainable. It will return things to the way they were before the crisis, which we need to be governing the way that we need to be living our lives and constructing a system that is actually sustainable and is a more caring society. What I consider to be a feminist economy or a feminist society, one in which the care work that people do is valued, the labor that people do is valued, regardless of market forces, or whether

or not it is considered essential by the wealthiest and most powerful people, a society that is more interconnected and even interdependent and collaborative. I think that on going back to normal, it's natural for us to desire for things to go back to normal. And in some ways, I definitely miss certain things that I associate with normalcy. I miss hugging people and shaking their hands, especially as an elected official. I miss just being out in public, seeing live music. have conversations with constituents about anything other than coronavirus, right? It really is affecting every single part of our daily lives. And I think that while I recognize the desire to go back to those things, and I hope that we'll have all of those things again, once we get through this, it's completely unrealistic to think that things even could, even if we thought, you know, America was great, New York City was great before this, even if we bought into that, I think it's totally unrealistic to think that things can go

back to normal. It's not possible. It's delusional because of the impact that this has had on work, because of the impact that this has had on work, on our economy. And it's an opportunity at the same time to, on the one hand, change work to make work more accessible, to make our society value the labor of essential people who are now considered essential workers who didn't have that title or recognition before, whether they are nurses, paramedics, first responders who earn like on average 30 something thousand dollars a year in this city, which is absurd. agents at hospitals, teachers who just in general are not paid commensurate with the essential role that they have in keeping our society running. So, you know, my hope is that we won't return to normal if normal means undervaluing their work. But we also won't be able to return to normal immediately because we know the domino effect that the loss of jobs alone has had on our local economy, the loss of business. When people lose their income, they're unable to pay rent. As of right now, there hasn't been a rent suspension.

Thankfully, people aren't being evicted because there's an eviction moratorium, but that is woefully inadequate. I'm hearing from constituents every single day saying, and it makes perfect sense, how are we supposed to pay our rent when we are unable to work, but from no fault of our own, even if it were. What I believe as a democratic socialist is that housing is a human right, healthcare is a human right, and our policies have never reflected that. We made progress in passing stronger rent laws in New York State last year, which I'm really proud to have been a part of. But that is not still not enough to keep people in our homes. It doesn't do anything for the hundreds of thousands

of people living in public housing that's been neglected in our state that's still being neglected. And it doesn't do anything to address the tens of thousands of homeless New Yorkers who don't have the ability to follow a stay-at-home order. They don't have the ability to quarantine, to shelter in place because they don't have shelter. And if they do, it's typically, you know, it doesn't allow for social distancing or for them to take care of themselves. social distancing or for them to take care of themselves. So basically, this public health crisis is sort of a conglomeration of multiple pre-existing public health crises. And I don't think it will be possible for us to go back to normal. And so given that reality, what we need to do is pass the policies that these problems, pre-existing problems as well, demand. We need universal health care.

We can do it. prevent people from being unjustly evicted or even subject to a sort of de facto eviction where their rent is raised an unconscionable amount and then they're forced out and replaced with a wealthier tenant. We really need to take action on climate justice. Last year, we passed legislation at the state level that committed to transitioning to 100% renewable energy. But in this budget that we just passed weeks ago, there was no real commitment, no investment in reaching the goals that were set out by that landmark climate justice legislation. We really need to completely reevaluate our priorities. I naturally, I think as a nation we need to, but naturally I'm more focused on New York state policy and the impact that it's having on people who live here in New York. We really need to thoroughly reevaluate our priorities and then act accordingly. We have a totally inequitable tax system in New York. The governor has been very committed to austerity, refuses to raise revenue,

and time and time again, even amidst this crisis, said that this is not the time to raise taxes. said that this is not the time to raise taxes. That's absurd because we have at least a $6 billion. I think now it's double that because of the public health crisis. We have a large deficit. And at the same time, every year in the budget, there are tax credits and tax breaks for corporations, essentially corporate welfare. And in the meantime, there is no new funding for the billions of dollars in capital repairs that NYCHA needs, that public housing tenants are relying on. There isn't an investment in the regulatory agencies that need to actually be protecting people, say, from displacement and eviction. There isn't an investment in social housing, in housing first, permanently housing, people who are experiencing

homelessness. There's an inadequate investment in our public education in a state where we have the most inequitable public education system system where the quality of your education is largely dependent on property, on local property taxes. And there are, based on a lawsuit from years ago in New York State that was taken all the way to the state Supreme Court, the campaign for fiscal equity, based on the ruling in that lawsuit, public schools in New York State are owed billions of dollars by the state in foundation aid. All of these things are impossible to rectify as long as we are prioritizing the desires of the very wealthy over the needs of everyone else. So I think that this is sort of a

reckoning. I don't say that to minimize the very severe impact that this is having on people's lives that nobody deserves. But I do think that it was not inevitable. And in order to avoid, you know, anything similar happening in the future, and also in order to mitigate the damage, we absolutely need to change course. You're listening to an Upstream Conversation with New York State Senator Julia Salazar. guitar solo guitar solo guitar solo guitar solo guitar solo ¶¶ ¶¶ That was Hemet Pine Singer by Will Stratton. You're listening to an Upstream Conversation with New York State Senator Julia Salazar. I heard you definitely mention health care and education and climate and housing and so many different policies. And I've heard them as well,

either renewed interest or increased interest in, say, universal basic income, universal health care, a Green New Deal. One area, though, that you spoke about that I'm interested in exploring more is you mentioned as a feminist socialist, valuing labor and particularly care work. And I imagine both our unpaid care work and our care work, as you mentioned, the care work that's not being paid adequate wages, right, living wages. So and I know this is an interesting thing to look at in terms of inequality. And I'm just wondering, is there anything that can come out of this or any policy suggestions about that revaluing labor? Obviously, taxes are one thing. And you did speak about that.

But I'm wondering if because I am seeing as well, like much more appreciation for what you said, you know, essential workers and, you know, signs out of people's windows and just expressions of gratitude that, you know, I hadn't seen before. So that's quite beautiful. But I wonder, how could that translate into the economy? How can we have a revaluing of labor to, say, give teachers and care workers and folks who maybe weren't making very much just more income and also just greater equality in the economy in general. So I'm just wondering if there's any policies that you're seeing related to that or any interventions that you see that could be possible. through public policy, because we know we can't, from experience, we can't rely on the private market to provide for the salaries, the benefits that essential workers deserve, that everyone really deserves. What it's going to take is certainly fighting for universal health care.

going to take is certainly fighting for universal health care. We should be fighting for safe staffing legislation to make sure that nurses and health workers are not overburdened and also that they will be able to improve the quality of care when they're not forced to do more than is humanly possible or reasonably possible. When it comes to a socialist feminist worldview, what we're really talking about is how labor is valued and the role of gender and sexuality in that. and sexuality in that. Women in our society, typically, and people who are socialized as women are raised typically to perform reproductive labor, not only the labor of raising our own children, often the labor of raising other people's children, care work, essentially, caring for our elders, people who are sick, have disabilities, maintaining the home and making the environment beautiful for all of us to enjoy. really is reproductive labor and most of it is unpaid. So people have to perform that labor in addition to somehow finding a way to receive income. So probably in addition to doing all of this unpaid labor are doing what society considers to be productive labor. And then for those who are actually paid to do care work, domestic workers, right,

which is close to my heart as someone who worked as a domestic worker for years, they're underpaid. They are systemically excluded from many of the protections that other workers have due largely to a legacy of slavery and the history of who was and still is forced to do domestic work. Not only is it disproportionately women and women of color, but many undocumented New Yorkers are care workers. I'm finding that many of the undocumented workers, but then just domestic workers in general are now losing income because the families who they worked for, either they lost their income or even if they didn't, they no longer need a caregiver at home because they're all home in quarantine. says when we as the state collectively, when we fail to recognize the value of this labor, is that we don't see it as essential and part of sustaining our society, which is delusional. The policy changes that I want to see are we should be providing for people to be able to actually do this labor,

because right now it's unsustainable. And it's having a harmful impact on every generation whose caregivers are really spread thin, having to care for their own children and someone else's children. It has a negative impact when we fail to value this labor. And so the society and economy that we want to see, a more caring economy, a feminist economy, will require an investment from the state in developing the care workforce.

There's also just an increasing demand, almost exponentially increasing demand for care work, as we have first and foremost an aging population. But of course, in this very moment, there's this very intense demand for care workers. And with that, we need to be providing the resources to scale up, to develop the workforce, and also to help agencies pay that otherwise can't afford to pay workers sufficiently. I think the state really needs to make up the gap. We really need to demonstrate with our wallets, essentially, at least as the state budget is concerned. Budgets are about priorities, and we really need to be making that investment in the care

workforce. And also, that translates to public education as well. The things that are not profitable, or at least not immediately and apparently profitable, are actually the labor and the things that sustain our society. Yeah, thank you. And what you brought up reminded me of one thing that I've seen around opening our wallets and sharing that on an individual basis. I've seen this great campaign called Share My Check. And it's just in reference just in reference to that the money that folks are receiving from from the government from the stimulus package will only go to those who

I believe paid taxes last year and also are U.S. citizens. So this Share My Check, if you check that out, you can find a way to redistribute that money to those who may need it more and also who won't be receiving any money. So just to say that's one solidaristic way that individuals can participate. Definitely. Yeah, I've been really, it's been very encouraging to see people respond who have the privilege and haven't really been financially impacted by this crisis, recognizing that and then sharing it exactly like what you're describing the share my check, people who are who are donating their stimulus checks, especially to undocumented workers and people who both need the support more and are not eligible for it. Yeah. And that brings us back to that, that kind of that choice that we face right now as to whether to go towards more collectivism and solidaristic economies or potentially more extractive and

authoritarian. So we have that choice on an individual basis as well as through our politics and policies. Yeah. So, you know, the show is called Upstream, and it's based on this metaphor of looking at the economic, political, social, ecological challenges that we face and then going upstream to the root causes. And you've spoken about so many of the challenges that we face, both before and during coronavirus. You spoke about, of course, the value of labor, of women's labor, of care labor, and also about gentrification. You mentioned that, you know, where you are, particularly in Brooklyn, and the health inequities of black and brown peoples, both before the coronavirus and then what this is exposing and the inequity of suffering that's happening now. You spoke about the climate crisis and also just about insecurity and precariousness in general around evictions and health and jobs. So I'm wondering if you look

at all of that, you know, all these things that brought you to work in politics and to the Democratic Socialists of America, and you kind of go upstream to the root causes, what do you see is there? What are these root causes that are leading to all these problems that we face? Yeah, I think the most concise way to describe the root problems of this crisis is that we as a society have valued profits over people. And that is what it says when in a state budget, for example, prioritize something that is a stimulus essentially for big business and then completely fail to once again fund public housing as we are essentially the landlord for these hundreds of thousands of tenants. It says that, okay, we actually value the profits of corporations over the ability of

our neighbors to survive. And that's a very sobering and really shameful thing. You know, it's a really shameful thing that you can see in so many issues across our society, how we have historically prioritized, whether it's wealth or whiteness or privilege, over the needs of the most vulnerable and over the needs of everyone who doesn't fit those parameters. Yeah, so I think overall, if we go upstream, some of the problems and mistakes, terrible things that we see in our country's history, mistakes, terrible things that we see in our country's history. You know, the legacy of slavery, for example, of sexism, of people of color and women not being able to own property and not being able to vote as well, not having autonomy or civic efficacy, these problems persist because even in 2020, where, yes, we've abolished slavery, certainly, but there is still an enormous pay gap between men and women, especially between

men and Black women. There is still an enormous disparity in the care that black women receive versus the care that white women receive. You know, you can see it in really every aspect of our society, the legacy and lasting impact of mistakes, to put it very delicately, mistakes of the past. And until we take what some would consider radical action in order to rectify those things, they're going to continue to persist. And so I think it's really enlightening to look upstream and say, you know, how are we going to determine where we are going and make informed decisions about where that will lead us if we don't look back and recognize the source of how we got to where we are now? Yeah. And also what you're saying by going upstream can help us

to determine which policies are most helpful, right? Like where do we see that we're choosing profit over the well-being of people on the planet? Where do we see that our policies might be inequitable or might have white supremacy or systemic oppression built into them. So it's helpful, very much so. And so I'm wondering, what is one thing that really worries you or troubles you or breaks your heart right now? And what is one thing that's really giving you hope? Just as you look forward, and you're holding the kind of the tension of this time and the potential. What is worrying you and what is giving you hope? What's worrying me right now, aside from perhaps the obvious, the death toll, the enormous impact that this is having on so many people's lives, what's discouraging me and worrying me is the failure of some in power

to use their power to fix it. And people responding callously or selfishly. For me, that that looks like price gouging, you know, charging people 10 bucks a piece or more for basic masks and personal protective equipment and seizing the opportunity in a crisis instead of using our positions and resources to heal. We are just opportunistically using this situation to make a profit. unwilling to pass policies that actually are seeking to address public needs, who I would expect to change course amidst a crisis like this, who have still been stubborn and obstinate about not changing course and as a result causing more harm and perpetuating the crisis. But even amidst all of that, I've been very encouraged to see people demonstrating solidarity and quickly assembling and coming to help people who are suffering, seeing neighbors helping neighbors, seeing mutual aid networks just emerge overnight and jump into action to deliver meals, supplies, prescriptions to people in North

Brooklyn, especially. I'm really, really proud of my community right now and of everyone of our neighbors who has just without any extrinsic motivation, without any incentive, just as fellow human beings have stepped up. And it encourages me because I know that it won't be enough for people to be offered material incentives for something to be profitable. That isn't enough for us to transform our society into a more caring society and a more caring economy. So it's encouraging to me to see people recognize the need and have this intrinsic motivation to change things. That the solidarity that I'm seeing, I think solidarity is always something that continues to amaze me, whether it's as simple as organizing when I worked for a union and we were talking to everyone in the college and there were those who

are tenured professors, they could join the union, but they don't, you know, they already have job security, they already earn a living wage, but seeing them join the union, use their position and be in solidarity with adjunct instructors who were working three different jobs in order to just make it work and survive. Just that demonstration of solidarity, I remember being amazed by it, thinking you don't have to do this, but you're doing this because you know that it's the right thing to do in this situation. And similarly, seeing people share their stimulus checks with others simply because they know it's the right thing to do. That kind of solidarity, the rent strike movement

is enormously encouraging to me right now to see tenants who can afford to pay their rent, but know that so many people cannot afford to pay their rent because they've lost their income and are unable to work. They are striking in solidarity with them and even seeing some homeowners in solidarity with tenants. In my own district, I've seen homeowners and tenants coming together and saying, our interests are interconnected and we rely on each other and we're family. And that means that we're demanding a rent suspension and a mortgage suspension. The banks, the lenders, they need to take responsibility for this and step in and help because they're in a position to help. That's really encouraging me and telling me that we not only can get through this, but that we can change as a society. Wonderful. Yeah, that's really hopeful and uplifting.

And yeah, I'm just really appreciating our conversation today. And I'm just wondering if you have any parting words, any any last things you'd like to share or say. And particularly, you know, as you mentioned that that you said you're the youngest state senator that's been elected in New York. Yeah, I'm the youngest woman to ever be elected to the state Senate. I'm currently the youngest person, the youngest senator. And I'm yeah, and I'm wonderful, proud of that, even as I'm proud to serve with my colleagues who, you know, there are fellow senators who are, I think, in their early 80s, certainly in their late 70s, you know, so they're generations before me. And I really appreciate learning from them. But the reality is that before I entered the state Senate, 76% of the state Senate

was men and mostly white men. So it's really encouraging to see not only myself, but others who don't fit that traditional description of who can be an elected official and who can be a public servant with, you know, the ability to help people and change lives. That changed in 2018 when I was elected and other insurgent grassroots candidates were elected. And I am hopeful that it will encourage other young women. You know, when I was when I was a kid and when I was growing up, it was it was very unusual for me to see a Latina elected official. they represent in office, including young people is, you know, I hope that it'll encourage more young people to be actively involved in politics. Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. It's definitely inspiring. And I really appreciate hearing your journey, especially learning about the Jacobin

reading groups and kind of making sense of that. And yeah, and it's beautiful to hear that you had this calling, and you were reluctant at first, and then you felt like, okay, this is the right thing to do. So any parting words before we close? The only other thing I would want to mention is that we do have some models and precedents in history for a society facing a crisis, even a pandemic, like the Spanish flu or the Black Plague, that became an impetus for social programs to be created and for the people in power and the society to change in a positive way after getting through it. And I really hope that we will take this moment and learn from those examples and follow suit so that we can come out of this stronger and together get to a better place. I think the only, actually, the only other thing that I would say is I'm really appreciative of how people across the country have expressed solidarity with New York as well. In East New York, in my district, the other day, I saw multiple

ambulances from other states, including it. There was an ambulance from Minnesota. It's very heartwarming to see people willing to just show up when they see the need. Yeah. And I hope that anyone listening on the West Coast or across the country knows how deeply we appreciate it. Well, thank you for your appreciations and your insights and your reflections and sharing your story and also for your leadership. It's been really lovely to talk to you today. Yeah, it's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for your time, Della, and for doing this. You've been listening to an Upstream conversation with New York State Senator Julia Salazar, part of our ongoing series on the coronavirus pandemic.

Thank you to Will Stratton for the intermission music. Upstream is a labor of love. We distribute all of our content for free and couldn't keep things going without the support of our listeners and fans. Visit upstreampodcast.org forward slash support to donate. Because we're fiscally sponsored by the non-profit organization Independent Arts and Media, any donations that you make are tax exempt. You can listen to any of our past documentaries at upstreampodcast.org and you can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Upstream Podcast. Thank you.