Upstream - Cuba Ep. 10: Cuba after Castro w/ Abby Martin

Episode Date: August 25, 2026

In this episode we're joined by Abby Martin for a conversation on her film, "Cuba after Castro: The Island in the Crosshairs." Abby Martin is a journalist, activist, founder of "The Empire Files," and director of the films "Gaza Fights for Freedom," "Earth's Greatest Enemy," which was the topic of our first episode with Abby, which was actually our first live show ever, and the film we'll be discussing today, which she co-directed with Matt Belen, "Cuba after Castro: The Island in the Crosshairs" which features the first and only interview conducted by an American journalist with Cuban President Miguel Díaz-Canel. The conversation opens with Abby explaining her connection to Cuba and why she chose to interview Cuba's President Miguel Díaz-Canel for this film. We explore President Miguel Díaz-Canel's story and talk about the series of crises that Cuba is facing as a result of U.S. aggression—a kind of slow genocide. We then explore parts of Abby's interview with President Díaz-Canel, beginning by situating criticisms of Cuba within the context of U.S. terror, sabotage, and invasion attempts and making sense of why Cuba's system has had to remain partially closed and on guard. We acknowledge the advances that Cuba has been able to make, despite this aggression, in terms of its democratic acheivements, its ability to navigate COVID, its robust healthcare infrastructure, etc. We discuss the recent announcement of economic reforms in Cuba, discuss the concern about capitalist restoration, and explore why Abby believes that Cuba will make it through this latest assault by the Trump regime. We end by exploring the world that can be if we are brave and committed enough to fight for it.  We are now on Youtube! You can find us and subscribe to our channel at youtube.com/@upstream_podcast Further resources: Cuba after Castro: The Island in the Crosshairs Earth's Greatest Enemy Gaza Fights for Freedom Related episodes: Listen to our ongoing series on Cuba Live Show: Breaking the Chains of Empire w/ Abby Martin (with Bonus Q&A) Intermission music: "to each their dot" by Haley Heynderickx and Max Garcia Conover Although the episodes in our series build on each other in certain ways, all of our series are designed so that each episode can be listened to as a standalone. Upstream is entirely listener funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants—just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. Subscribe to our Patreon for bi-weekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, and for Upstream stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Through your support you'll be helping us keep Upstream sustainable and helping to keep this whole project going—socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund so thank you in advance for the crucial support. patreon.com/upstreampodcast For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Instagram and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

Hey everyone, just a quick note before we jump into the episode today. I just wanted to let you all know that upstream is now on YouTube. It took us a really long time to get that going, but we've uploaded pretty much our entire back catalog, at least up to several years into YouTube. So you can now listen to all of our stuff, both past, present and future through YouTube. And just make sure to subscribe to the channel so that you get notifications when we have new episodes and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, so hope that's helpful for some of you who prefer to get your podcasts on YouTube. And I will put a link, of course, in the show notes so that you can get there very easily. All right. Thank you. And on with today's episode.

Just the fact that Diaz Canel opens himself up to that. Can you imagine any congressional figure. I mean, all they do, especially when the Gaza genocide started, these people don't have open town halls. They hide. They cower in offices. Even the most progressive senator here in Oregon, I mean, he wouldn't face us when the genocide started and he refused to take a stand. None of these people have the courage to face their constituents because they are scared. President DeEascone goes out. He doesn't have a bulletproof vest on. He's not surrounded by security detail.

He's going out in the throngs of the people. people, receiving the critiques just like Fidel Castro did. You're listening to Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. A show about political economy and society that invites you to unlearn everything you thought you knew about the world around you.

I'm Robert Raymond. And I'm Della Duncan. Can you imagine if our political leaders, let alone the president himself, sat down for an unscripted long-form interview with a journalist, answering any and all questions posed to him? Well, that's just not how the theater of politics works in the United States, but things are quite different in Cuba, where their president, Miguel Diaz Canal, actually sat down and spoke to a U.S.-based journalist for hours. And this conversation is what we'll be discussing today. In this episode, we're joined by Abby Martin for a conversation

on her film, Cuba after Castro, the island in the crosshairs. Abby Martin is a journalist, activist, founder of the Empire Files, and director of the films, Gaza Fights for Freedom, Earth's Greatest Enemy, which was the topic of our first episode with Abby, and which actually happened to be our first live show ever, and the film that we'll be discussing today, which she co-directed with Matt Baylon, Cuba After Castro, which features the first and only interview conducted by an American journalist with Cuban president Miguel Diaz Canal. And before we get started, Upstream is entirely listener funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants, just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. Subscribe to our Patreon for bi-weekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, and for stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Through your support, you'll be helping us keep Upstream sustainable and a lot of

allowing us to keep this whole project going. Socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund, so thank you in advance for the crucial support. And now here's Del. In Conversation with Abby Martin. Welcome, Abby to Upstream. So good to be in conversation with you again. It's amazing to be back.

I still have people all the time telling me that that live event that we did together was transformative. And it really, for me, it was one of the best events I've ever done in my life. So I'm so thrilled to be back with you guys. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. And for those who may not know you and your work, would you mind just starting with an introduction? How would you introduce yourself today? My name is Abby Martin. I'm an anti-imperialist investigative journalist and documentary filmmaker, a host and creator of the Empire Files, which is a foreign policy-focused show. And yeah, director of the new documentary, Earth's Greatest Enemy, formerly Gaza Fights for Freedom. Yes, and that was what we last gathered to talk about was the film that you just mentioned. And I know you're wearing the shirt. Do you want to show us the shirt of it?

Earth's greatest enemy. So people don't think I'm wearing an actual American flag shirt over here. Change my whole political ideology. I'm now very nationalistic. Now, just kidding. This is, for people who are listening, it's the Earth being chomped up. by the American flag with very sharp teeth. And it says Earth's Greatest Enemy. It's kind of the retro vintage inspired shirt for my film. Ours Greatest Enemy, you can get it at Empirefiles.com. And it's a great shirt.

And so we last spoke with you in anticipation of that film. So that came out. Congrats on that. And then now we're talking about Cuba after Castro, the island in the crosshairs. But maybe first share the journey from the one film to the other, because I see the connections, and I'm sure our listeners will too, but how would you share that journey and the connection between the two films? Exactly. I mean, Earth's Greatest Enemy, you know, as people who have seen it know and kind of instructed by the title, it is a very gargantuan topic. It is the cumulative story of imperialism. It's our attempt, at least, to try to kind of synthesize all the material to really prove the case.

that it's not just the U.S. military, it's actually the U.S. military as the enforcement mechanism to uphold this unsustainable, global capital system that we're all enslaved to. And Cuba is a case study. Cuba is one of hundreds, if not thousands of case studies that we can kind of zero into under that larger umbrella of U.S. imperialism and look at a country just 90 miles away from our shores of how it's been attacked, demonized, brutalized, subjugated to the worst economic consequences and repression from its island neighbor, from this global mafia. So that's kind of the link between these two stories. Cuba after Castro dives into the story of Cuba from the beginning of the revolution until today. And it's through the eyes of the leader who's living under the

crosshairs of the Trump administration, President Miguel Diaz-Cannell. And it's a really instructive interview. We kind of try to bring these stories to life and illustrate them with this rich archival B-roll that really illustrates these things and makes you feel like you're there. It makes you feel like you're one of these people who has been living through this horrific, horrific period. Absolutely. Yeah. So from Earth's greatest enemy to one of the U.S.'s greatest enemy, Cuba, or at least it's framed as such. And, you know, we each have our own connection with these places, our subjects, right, of research and inquiry. So how would you say, how would you describe your relationship with Cuba, maybe the impact of the revolution and Cuba in general on you and your

work? Yeah, I mean, Cuba's always been one of those countries that, of course, necessitates our defense and solidarity. But until you really go there, just like all these other countries, Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua, until you really go and, and, understand kind of that rich legacy and the resilience of these people who have been living and confined to U.S. brutality and subjugation for so long and have persevered with incredible resolve. It's unparalleled. It's something that's extremely motivating and inspiring to me as a socialist, as someone who considers myself an advocacy journalist or an activist journalist, someone who really creates adjut prop to try to counter these dominant narratives that exist throughout corporate

media that help basically manufacture the consent for these brutal policies in my name as an American. So it's always been in the periphery as I learned and constructed my worldview, but until I really became anti-capitalist, did I really really sympathize with the revolutionary project and really understand it for what it is? Because of course, you can come to the defense of so many countries around the world just as a necessity and say, no, we should be looking at our policies for our government and try to stop those, because that's the power that we wield as American citizens with our privilege and duty. But with Cuba, I do sympathize with the entire political project. And I find it really revealing so many people who, you know, as you know,

I mean, try to constantly criticize Cuba from this kind of third rail political idea of this impossible notion of what Cuba should look like, what it should be doing under the current conditions. And that's why I feel such a personal kinship with Cuba because it's progressive. It's a progressive government that's trying to do everything that it possibly can. That without the boot on its neck, we can only imagine what Cuba could bring to the world in terms of all of its incredible and inventions and research and it's just internationalism. It's something that's really incredible to behold, and I am committed to defending it. And that's why we wanted to explore this movie and provide this story to people for free,

which it's for free online now, which anyone can watch. Yes. And so that film, again, Cuba after Castro, the island and the crosshairs. And like you said, it is both footage, historical footage, and footage, of Cuba and many historical events, interviews, etc., but also speeches, and this interview, this really unique interview. So tell us, how did you get to be in conversation with the president, Miguel Diaz-Canal, who's the president since 2018 and the first secretary of the Communist Party of Cuba? And what was it like meeting him? And why did you want him to be in conversation right now? Why was his voice important?

I mean, this is such an amazing story because, of course, people look at Cuba as this, you know, succession of kind of nepotism and dictatorial reign. And that's the corporate media narrative about Cuba. And so it just kind of underpins all this mythology that justifies these horrific criminal policies. In reality, of course, Fidel Castro and his successor Raul played this enormous outsized role and obviously cementing. all these values and all of the cultural traditions of the revolution. But President Diaz Canel is a completely different figure. He was born after the revolution. He was someone who ascended in the post-revolutionary period where he actually lived through the things that he's talking about. I mean, we can go into his story later. But I wanted to go to the source

because there is this tendency across the media that just talks about the story. these countries, talks about these leaders in cartoonish caricatures, and we do not ever hear directly from them. I mean, I remember when Oliver Stone interviewed Putin for the Putin tapes, and it was this huge scandal. It was like, oh, my God, how could a filmmaker sit down with a dustbit? It's like, I'm sorry, are we children or are we adults? Are we living in a global stage where we have to talk to scary countries that are deemed our adversaries and actually understand where these leaders are coming from, especially if we're fomenting a fucking proxy. against this leader. So it is absurd and insulting, I think, to our intelligence that we don't hear

in long form from formerly President Assad when we were involved in the Syria war, Putin, or, you know, Maduro. When did a Western journalist sit down in long form with Maduro and really get his insights on the country before he was fucking kidnapped by this criminal government? So that was the initial reason and interest because I knew where this was going. We saw the writing on the wall during Trump's first term, obviously the unchanged nature of the policies during Biden. This interview was actually conducted before Trump took office in his second term. So there is, it's a totally different setting. But I just wanted to present to President Diaz Canal all of these pillars of propaganda, as well as really dive into the rich history of the revolution,

what it meant to him, his entire ascendancy, and give this context to Americans and people in the West to really understand how unique this country is, how incredible the story of Cuba is, and not just what the U.S. has done to them, the cruel nature of the blockade and this expixating suffocating policy of economic coercion, not just that, but the perseverance and what they've been able to achieve under the boot. It's just an incredible story, Della, and I'm so happy that we have it out, and it was so urgent to put it out. We spent a year and a half trying to put it together because we wanted to make it into a movie because it sounds boring to just say, watch an interview with the president of this country. But if you say, watch this movie about an

interview, then it becomes much more appealing. And in fact, it is a journey. It's a very beautiful and rich journey that I encourage everyone to take. I agree. I encourage them as well. And so to dive into the history a little bit, for those who may not know, tell us about the transition from Fidel to his brother, Raul, to then president. President Miguel Diaz-Canel, just in case people aren't familiar with that, how did that transition happen? Yeah, I mean, there's this narrative that's painted in the media of this kind of succession that's dictatorial, that's nepotist, and of course, there's continuity at the top. I mean, Fidel led the country for decades, and Raoul took over as his successor. The thing is,

Diaz-Canel represents this kind of generational shift because he was the first non-revolutionary figure, right? I mean, you had this lore of the revolution of, you know, Fidel Castro always in the fatigues. You know, I mean, they were military figures. They were iconic representatives of what was fought for with blood, sweat and tears to gain and achieve what they were able to achieve after the dictatorial rule of Batista. And so, President Diaz-Cannell had a completely different history. I mean, he grew up after the revolution. came up, as you mentioned, through provincial government outside of Havana. I mean, he became the first non-Castro to lead the government. But it wasn't because he was handpicked. He fought his way. He was kind of a reluctant leader. I mean, he first was an engineer. You see actually through this rich archival B-roll that we discovered in Cuba, President Descanal himself as a 13-year-old

boy toying around with this engineering equipment. And it's incredible. He's talking about this stuff. I mean, such an eager kid. And just to know that this was his passion. His passion was putting things together, technology, being hands-on, really how to solve problems tactically and tangibly with your hands. And then as he mentioned, I mean, he was elected in the same way that all political figures are elected in Cuba. People think of Cuba as this cartoonish system where everything's handpicked by the Communist Party,

and that's not the case at all. In fact, there's rich democratic traditions. and that's exactly how we saw President Diaz-Cannell ascend. Yes, and to go into his story a little bit more, one of the elements of footage that you have is his time in Nicaragua. So I love this idea of, you know, what radicalizes us? And so for me, I'm curious, was that part of his radicalization? And can you tell us that part of his story?

Yes, exactly. I mean, he goes to school. He goes in the Young Communist League. And in that time, I mean, we saw the U.S. fomenting and agitating against Nicaragua. We saw the counter-revolutionary forces being funded by the CIA against the Sandinista movement. This was a similar story that echoed Cuba's revolution just decades prior. And so at his teenage young adulthood, he went on an internationalist mission as he was serving in the armed forces in Cuba to Nicaragua as part of this international solidarity mission.

And he served there for two years. And he was living through the height of the army of, the political repression from my government to the Nicaraguan revolutionaries. And so that completely, I think, transformed him cemented and kind of catalyzed his probably rage against the U.S. because for the first time he was actually on the receiving end of what his, what he had only known through the lore of his family. You know, his parents telling him how brutal the repression was under the Batista regime. But because he grew up after that, this was the first time that he had really seen, oh God, he was living through another attempt to crush a revolutionary political project in Nicaragua.

So he has firsthand experience there of the CIA's working. Of course, as we know, the CIA also, you know, brags about how its largest political project ever was on the ground in Cuba. Can you fucking imagine that? I mean, Jesus Christ, what a waste, an immense waste of resources and money spent to try to overturn this political project in this small island. But yes, I think, you know, living inside this revolutionary project while it was under attack, while serving militarily. And then he goes back with this kind of lived experience and with further resolve to serve his country. As he mentions in the documentary, being a politician in Cuba, it's not a career path. It's not a career path.

It's not like it is in the U.S. where people become politicians and then they just, you know, it's so careerist and it's so kind of sociopathic because you just know that you're just kind of. going to be doing favors and doing the bidding of lobbyists and corporations in order to get or ascend anywhere. For Cubans, it's your life. It's everything to you. It's your being. It's everything that defines what being Cuban is. And that's, I think, why you see this incredible political consciousness that spreads throughout all of Cuban society. It is simply born and bred in all of what it means to be Cuban. Through your political education, just being a human being, and living with a different set of values. Yeah, and then unfortunately, being Cuban since the revolution

has also been experiencing counter-revolution, right, whether it's militarily and especially economic. And you really focus in the film on the, as it's called, the cruel and genocidal blockade. And so tell us what, let's bring it to the present. We're here in the time of Fidel Castro's, what would have been his hundredth birthday? You know, what is the latest,

with Trump and Rubio. And what is the, where is the blockade at now? How would you describe the blockade and the story of it as to where it is today? One of the most difficult things about explaining the blockade, which is just kind of known in the colloquial, like, basically just people call it L. Blockayo. I remember when I first went to Cuba and I saw the billboard saying the blockade is genocide. And it seemed dramatic, but I was just like, wow, like, what is, what is that really mean. Like, the blockade seems all encompassing, but it's really hard to describe. It's not easy to summarize in a sentence. And so for people, it's so abstract and they're just like, oh, well, why can't Cuba just buy it with other countries other than the U.S.? Well, that's not the way it works.

I mean, the U.S. is the heart and the hub of global capitalism. And so a lot of these corporations that provide high technology in terms of medical, biotech equipment, it is U.S.-based corporations. Of course, U.S. is the heart of global finance. So we're not only talking about the impediment of buying directly from U.S. corporations, it's U.S. threatening sanctions and tariffs and all these economic consequences from any third-party vendor or third-party, meaning another country that wants to directly deal with Cuba. It's simply not worth the risk of having a gun to their head from the world's military dictatorship, the criminal mafia that runs this country.

So Cuba has such a huge problem with the supply chain of getting just basic necessities to the country. So this has always been the case of the blockade. I think what Cuba presented last year at the UN, I think it was $170 billion of cumulative, like tangible losses financially of the blockade since the beginning of the embargo. But just since 2024, we've seen, I think, like $8 billion of losses because when Trump got in, these sanctions that he increased. creates 240 new sanctions in his first term, completely crippled the economy. We saw COVID hit soon after that, which torpedoed the entire tourism industry. So, of course, this hits remittances, this hits tourism, which was the backbone of Cuba's economy. And so since COVID, the presidents had to deal with just one disaster after another. And since Trump's second term, because Biden

didn't change anything about the architecture of these sanctions. He didn't lift one sanction. And in fact, he left Cuba under the designation of the state sponsors of terrorism list until the last week that he was in office. So, of course, Trump just reverses that the next week. And, you know, what does Trump do? He basically employs this full-scale oil embargo of January of this year, which just shut off all oil completely from the island. So this is insane. I mean, this is directly, mass murdering Cubans. Every single day we are seeing elderly, vulnerable, infants in the NICU, garbage pickup, running water, basic hygiene and sanitation. We're not just talking about like refrigerating food and medicine, although that would be deadly enough. We are talking about hospitals

being shut down. We're talking about babies dying. We're talking, no running water. That's the situation right now. Blackouts that sometimes persist for days on end. Can anyone imagine in our positions going, like living through that? And it's completely invisibleized. It's completely invisible to the corporate media. All these people have just ceded to the notion that this is inevitable, that we're just waiting on pins and needles to see what Trump is going to do, these sadistic maniacs. So yeah, it's, it's unbelievable what that actually amounts to on the ground. It is literally mass murder. But Della, I think what's so kind of traumatic is just the ability to really wrap our minds around the scale and scope of this because we've been hit

with genocide for three years. We've been watching this genocide for three years. And I think it's flattened kind of the moral threshold, the rapidity and scale and scope of these atrocities committed every single day that it's made us unable to respond to even take in these crimes. on this scale. And to pay attention to something like Cuba, while Gaza is still going on, while we're seeing babies being blown apart, children ripped limb from limb, this is the invisible silent aspect of genocide. And this, again, it's the case study of Urus greatest enemy. It's happening right to our beautiful island neighbors that we should be collaborating with, building peaceful relations with. Instead, we're slowly suffocating them, choking them to death every single

day. Yeah, genocidal blockade. And in your film, there was one image of a article that said, you know, how many babies were killed due to blockade. And again, that was before the recent intensification. So, you know, yeah, we can only imagine. And, you know, the show is called upstream about going upstream to the root causes. And there was a really powerful quote from Diaz Canal that I want to read, because I found it really interesting. He said, as unbelievable as it may seem, the subject of Cuba, which ought to be a question of foreign policy for the U.S., has become a domestic issue, because the U.S. administration, namely Trump and Biden, as of late, have been conditioned, have submitted to, have bound themselves to the interests of the Cuban American mafia, who don't want relations between the U.S. and Cuba, who are constantly torpedoing those relations. So I just think that's like unpack that for us. It's almost like it's not just Biden and Trump, that there's this deeper level or layer that's really sabotaging. And like he said, it's making it a domestic issue. So tell us more. What does he mean? And what does this mean is kind of like why we're seeing this intensification of the blockade? Very good point. I mean, yes. And I think it's important to first underpin that point, exactly, which is this is a bipartisan effort that's been.

consecutive ever since Kennedy, arguably Eisenhower. I mean, under Kennedy, we saw the 1960 memorandum that basically declared the impending sanctions regime and justified it by saying, we need to bring about starvation, desperation. It was all a response to the overwhelming popularity of Fidel Castro. That sanctions regime has been in place ever since. We've seen ebbs and flows. Of course, we saw the normalization attempt under Obama, which again points to what Diels-Cannell is talking about today. the potential of normalized relations because we saw the potential. We did. I was on the ground when Obama did that. It was a new dawn. It was a new day of what was possible between these two

countries. Of course, Trump gets in and completely destroys any capacity of normalized relations. And it's because I think obviously Marco Rubio plays such an oversized role here. I mean, first, let's talk about the oversized role of Florida, because we have this dysfunctional electoral college that basically decides our president based on this disproportionate population that outsizes certain states and really renders the rest of us completely obsolete when it comes to our, you know, democratic participation. Florida is completely outsized in its representation every single year. And so the Florida lobby, similarly to kind of the Israel lobby, you've seen them be subsidized, right? Hundreds of millions of dollars being poured into this lobby of essentially

mafia figures in Florida to continue to lobby and influence Congress to make sure that no normalization efforts really ever succeed because of the power and the outsized influence, the undue influence, excuse me, of this lobby. Marco Rubio is a hardliner that came to power in this context. I mean, he is a conservative from South Florida, if I'm not mistaken. He is a bat-shit crazy sadist who has always been committed ever since he stepped foot into politics to destroying Cuba. Of course, he's never stepped foot in Cuba, but that doesn't matter. None of these people have. Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, all they care about is destroying Cuba. And I will never forgive Bernie Sanders and every other Democrat for unanimously endorsing him, voting him to become Secretary of State. Now,

Because of this, he's in charge of the entire foreign policy of the empire. So now you have this kind of fusion where once it was just this political constituency in the backdrop that was influencing Congress, and it kind of depended on who the president was, what the power block in Congress was in terms of how strong this faction was or how much power they were granted. But now you see this fusion of the political constituency that was mostly domestic as a lobbying force. positioned in the highest position of the U.S. Empire, deeming all of our foreign policy, dictating our foreign policy. And so this is why you see Trump is kind of this chaos president. The first term he had so many fuck-ups. He was trying to figure out his game. Now he is only surrounded by loyalists. It's a very, very tight-knit circle of loyalists, and they know

exactly what they need to do to push through and ram through their agenda. Marco Rubio has one goal, re-enlisting them in Roe Doctrine, destroying Cuba. And so he sees Trump as the senile con artist who has no value system at all, and he's trying to ram through what he knows that he can, possibly, because he'll never have this political capital again. I don't think any of these people will. So that's why we're seeing the Iran war. That's why we're seeing these extremely draconian measures be taken across Latin America and across Cuba, because I don't think that they think that they'll have it the chance again. So it's a very dangerous and unpredictable moment that we're in right now. And that's exactly what President Miguel Diaz-Cannell

is talking about. He's talking about the fact that this is a power block that is now in this unprecedented position of power, Marco Rubio. He represents the worst of the worst, and he's going to do whatever he can. And as Trump has said and gloated many times, they're going to do it again. after they kidnapped Maduro and black-bagged him, and nobody can stop us. Nobody can stop us. We're going to do it again. And every day, Della, I wake up with this pit in my stomach thinking,

what the fuck are they going to do? What are they going to do? God, I mean, what are they going to do? They're already murdering so many fishermen, extrajudicially, drone bombing people. I mean, I just, I just, we know that it's going to take a lot of bloodletting for them to actually try to usher in some sort of new political leadership that is going to reverse these social gains. And we know what these people like to do, which is bomb people from the sky because they're cowards and criminals.

They know that they can't invade without a huge fight, which is why we saw what happened and Venezuela happened. So every day, we're on pins and needles thinking, what the fuck are these people capable of doing? And they said by 20, by the end of this year, they want regime change. And we know what that would look like. And you mentioned or you referred to quote unquote democracy in the United States. And I know that in terms of justification for what's happening in Cuba, there's the area of the press and democracy. And I know this is a subject in the film. So tell us how the blockade, how this economic and military warfare is being justified.

and what was President Miguel Diaz-Canel's response? Because I think it was really powerful. Yeah, Miguel-Diaz-Canel's response to my question about democracy in the one-party system. It's really important, and I think people really need to sit with his answers about not only that question, but about the question of free press and political repression in the country. Because I think overall, we have no idea what these countries would be like, what they would look like what their political processes would function as if it weren't for the boot on their neck. I kind of liken Cuba's political system to people who criticize political's one party system.

It's the same people who look at Hamas and they're like, why didn't you have an election since 2006? It's like, well, it's a country. I'm not saying Hamas is a country or Gaza is a country. I'm just saying Cuba's a country under siege. It's a country at war. Similarly, you could argue Gaza was under siege, right? And so why would they open themselves up to elections when they're trying to survive, a war, committed and perpetrated against the most largest military force that has ever existed in the history of humanity? So there's not a lot of options there.

I mean, sure, they could do what Venezuela has done. They can have a multi-party system. What would that look like? Well, it would mean the other party would be the capitalist party. It would be injected with hundreds of millions of dollars from this government from CIA proxies. And it would do everything possible to reverse the social gains that were cemented with the Cuban Revolution. We've seen this playbook rolled out dozens of times. So I think Cuba has been smart out of pure preservation to hold on tight to the political project and not open themselves up for sabotage.

Why would they? So I, you know, I always look at these things and I blame my government. DPRK, Cuba, even the extreme paranoia that exists within Cuba about dissent, about free press, about whatever, the mass arrests from July 11th a couple of years ago, I still blame that paranoia on my government. Because if it wasn't for the CIA admitting and having hundreds of CIA agents crawling all over, the ground in Cuba, if it wasn't for the decades-long terrorist campaign that took the lives of hundreds of Cubans, if it wasn't for this reign of terrorism and economic strangulation, hundreds of assassination attempts, right? CIA plots to try to foment and agitate the hip-hop community against them, to try to, you know, have a fake HIV program within Cuba, to create a fake Twitter,

to try to agitate people. If it weren't for all these things, sure, then maybe we can have some sort of constructive critique about what Cuba could and could not do. But for all those reasons, it is about political unity for Cuba. It's about holding on to that unity and not opening themselves up. And that is a smart tactic because you're facing down a monster. And this monster cannot be trusted. And this monster has no soul. So you're not on an equal footing ever. And so it literally is survival year after year of trying to maintain the bare minimum, which is the gains that is the basis of everything in the country. And that's the threat, Della, that's the threat. And, you know, I want people to go into the documentary and I want them to really watch this because he really does

go into this rich history of not only the revolutions that failed before 1959. And he talks about the lack of political unity and the division that didn't cause the successes of the revolution before the Cuban revolution. And so that was a factor as well. But then he also goes into the fact that there is a rich democratic process within Cuba. So even though they have a one-party system, there's still rich democracy. There's still massive amounts of voting on referendums, on figures, on, you know, on processes. Look at the family reform bill. This was one of the most revolutionary progressive bills in the world. That codified family law, LGBTQ rights, adopt. practices for these people, and that was voted on by the entire country. So there's so many things

that you can argue are more democratic than what is deemed the most democratic country in the world, ours, which is a complete farce, but it's just all subjective, and it's all relative. And that's why it's incredible to have him kind of invert these theories and kind of tip them on their heads and just say, well, let's look at it from a completely different angle. You're listening to an Upstream Conversation with Abby Martin. We'll be right back. I see you clearly now. My skin is a soft shade of brown.

Our revolution's coming around. We're watching a system disrupt. Two coins in a pinhole cup. Crush with Tansi. What do you want me to believe? And what can I not? Of our nature. To reach their color.

I see you clear lost in your deep versions coming. Watching a building collapse. No prayers or the foals take a step. Because you don't trust me, I don't trust you, yet we put these men in suits to handle conflict like they do all night. I can see a nice, stupidiology on either of us want to be crucified. How kid you are. And if I look at you and your rage is testicular. Their interest is circular.

They're just making money off. That was to each their daughter, nature, which they're called. That was, To Each Their Dot by Haley Hendricks and Max Garcia Conover. Now, back to our conversation with Abby Martin. One of my favorite parts of the film was where you had a scene of people speaking to him, a huge crowd speaking to him, both things positive about the government, but also critiques or things that they were challenging, right? And so tell us a little bit more about.

dissent within Cuba and kind of what you learn through filming this process. Again, all, you know, I personally think it was an overreaction. In fact, I told him it was an overreaction to arrest, you know, the hundreds of people that they did during the July 11th protests. But again, it's this culture of paranoia as a result of my criminal government, doing the things that it's done. And so dissent, as it exists today, I mean, the thing is you are free to dissent. You are free to criticize the government. Like, that's just a fact. We see these these fake, like, feds, like, you know, like these fake so-called journalists that are really essentially federal assets like Nick Shirley, for example. I mean, here he is in an El Salvadorian

prison. He's on the streets of Israel. And then all of a sudden he's in Cuba, claiming that the Cuban regime is chasing him down in the hotel and about to, like, kidnap him. It's like, no, dude, no one gives a shit about you. Sorry. But that. But that's the, That's the truth. Like, you go to Cuba, you talk to whoever you want. No one's breathing down your neck. No one cares about the cell phone that you have in your hand or what you're recording. No one cares, man, because it's not a police state. It's not what you're trying to tell us it is. So, I mean, that was my experience as going there and being like, oh, God, like, you can do whatever you want. You can talk to whoever you want. What's amazing to me is I always take a snapshot of people wherever I go with man on the streets.

And I was expecting, because I was there during when basically likened to the special period, right at the end of the Biden administration, when nothing had really changed from the sanctions regime that Trump exacerbated, I was expecting everyone to just be like, this sucks, dude. Like, we need a new guy. Like, help us. Like, really, you know, kind of the trope that you always hear. I'm like, well, the sanctions finally worked. People are pissed.

Because, of course, they're going to, who are you going to blame when you don't have things right in front of you. You're probably going to blame the people who are representing you as opposed to, like, what has always existed, what you were always born into, the blockade, I'll blockayo. Like, it is very abstract, especially for Cubans who are born during the special period and who are now growing up. That's all they've ever known. Of course, they're going to be pissed at the government. And in fact, a lot of people are, because it's just so exhausting, right? And so people are just like, fine, capitulate, fine. But what's amazing to me is I thought that would be like the mainstream view. No, it's the opposite.

The mainstream view is get off our fucking throats and leave us alone, America. Yankees get the hell out of our country. Yeah, we have problems. Yes, we have critiques. That's for us to decide. That's for us to figure out. It was incredible. I mean, everyone knows more about my government than even Americans do.

And people were coming up very robust conversations and dialogues that I was having with people just randomly on the street. People would come up and argue with anyone who was like criticizing the government. I had Cubans coming up and be like, no, you're fucking wrong. You know, it was just insane. It's incredible what is happening in the streets. But the meetings that I've been to, I mean, hundreds of people that are discussing these things, just the fact that Diaz Canal opens himself up to that.

Can you imagine any congressional figure? I mean, all they do, especially when the Gaza genocide started, these people don't have open town halls. They hide. They cower in offices. even the most progressive senator here in Oregon. I mean, he wouldn't face us when the genocide started and he refused to take a stand.

None of these people have the courage to face their constituents because they are scared. President Deascone goes out, he doesn't have a bulletproof vest on, he's not surrounded by security detail, he's going out in the throngs of the people, receiving the critiques, just like Fidel Castro did.

And they do receive the critiques, and you see people in the document. He's saying, how long are we supposed to put up with this as revolutionaries? How long? How long? And he sits there and he listens and he goes out in the middle of these mass rallies with tens of thousands of people. Can you imagine if Trump did that or Peter Thieler?

They'd be killed because so many people hate them. Because so many people understand that they are parasitic force that is actually causing the material destruction of our reality and our planet. But President Descanal can go out there. and be actually one with the people. It is really incredible. And you really don't see people doing that. And you certainly don't see people sitting down for three or four hour interviews,

not scripted, not given the questions in advance, and saying, go for it. Ask me whatever you want. And I'm going to do my best to answer these questions. It's amazing. Yeah. And from the other films that I've seen on Fidel Castro, like you said, he did that too. He would go and just talk with people in the countryside and hear their grievances and respond to that. And I love that kind of, we could call it barefoot democracy, right?

People just like having conversations, very powerful. And, you know, when you've been, you said the conversations you've been having you had had in Cuba, you've been showing the film now, you've been traveling. What has been the response where you've shown it here in the United States and elsewhere? How are people responding to both seeing the whole story and also hearing from the current political leadership about what's happening right now? I mean, overwhelming sympathy and solidarity. One thing that I wasn't able to include in the documentary, because we were kind of concurrently working on another Cuba project that I don't know if it's going to come to fruition because this one was really urgently rushed out because of just how urgent the situation has become, how much the threats have ratcheted up, how escalatory Trump. has made this aggression. But one thing that we weren't able to include

was kind of the blockade going both ways because I think it's really important to show what Cuba's been able to achieve, what they've been able to do despite the boot being on their neck. And that's, I think, I like to bring that as kind of an accessory to when I'm doing these screenings

because Americans are just blown away. I mean, they're blown away at the story of Cuba because we're like goldfish in a bull. We have collective memory loss. We don't learn anti-imperialist history, obviously in our education system. And we certainly don't understand Cuba. Mostly it's just this cold war grudge and this Cold War relic. People look at Cuba and they're like, why do they

have old cars? Why are they trapped in a time capsule? It's like that it's absurd. It's absurd that people don't know anything about this country and they don't know what the U.S. has done to them and they don't even know the 70 year period of what Cubans have been forced to live through. Because, of the actions of this government, it should be common knowledge with everyone. I mean, as should every country that's been on the receiving end of these criminal policies, right? It's like for Cubans, they know everything because they've been living through it. For Americans, it's just, it's similar to Guam. It's like all Chamorro people know that they're American, no Americans understand that Guam is part of America. It's just like, it's this complete ignorance. And that's why, as a

journalist, I try to make long-form material to try to counteract this algorithmic, driven, hypersensational kind of 24-hour news cycle. And I want to take people back, give them the bird's eye, and sit down with really instructive educational material that really enriches them and leaves them with a permanent understanding. And not even, if you don't remember all the facts in the documentary, that's okay. You take away understanding how unique Cuba's story is. how incredible it is that this country has been able to survive. Hundreds of attempts of sabotage, terrorism, economic sanctions. It's unlike any country in the world.

It serves as a beacon for all of us, a beacon of so much of hope, of dignity, of revolutionary ideals that we can emulate and strive towards. I mean, so much, right? The medical internationalism, the cancer breakthroughs, all of these things. And that's, I think, what people take away most as they think, oh, my God, I mean, not only does President Miguel Diaz-Canel just seem like such a personable figure and not at all like this picture that's been painted by corporate media or by our political

establishment, it's someone that you feel like you could actually sit down with and really understand, someone who really cares about the plight of not only his people, but the plight of people all around the world because internationalism is such a bedrock of their value system. And it's such a bedrock of MDC's understanding in his ideology as someone that's served in medical, you know, internationalism in Nicaragua and understands that principle. So the movie has been incredibly profound, I think, for people and people understand that it's a tool. It's a tool for all of our movements to continue to educate people and to catalyze people and understand why international solidarity is paramount for all of our political lens and perspectives.

And on the subject of what they've been able to achieve, I'd love to hear the story of COVID in Cuba. Because as you mentioned, Miguel Diaz Canal has experienced many challenges, and one of them was becoming president in 2018 and then Cuba experiencing COVID and the blockade. So tell us about that story and how this really demonstrates what Cuba is a president of. to achieve despite the economic warfare that it's experiencing. This is such an incredible story, and it made me come to tears thinking about just the criminal, evil, sadistic nature of the policy that the U.S. has against this country, where it literally treats 11 million people as pawns on a chessboard of this imperial madness. This global pandemic hits. This is already after these debilitating crippling sanctions. This is already at, you know,

Cuba's suffering, right? COVID hits completely shuts down their economy. Cuba being very centered on medicine and education about personal health, you know, unlike Americans who have no trust with the medical sector and no trust with with biotechnology, no trust with with the medical system at all, of course, we had this huge anti-vaccine movement in this country and a huge detachment. It actually kind of precipitated a lot of mental illness and detachment from reality in this country. And Cuba was the opposite. Everyone locked in. The whole community got on board.

It was a massive, mobilized effort before they created not only one, not only two, but three different COVID-19 vaccines, all internally with their incredible biotech sector. but before that they already had mechanisms in place to have a really successful lockdown and to help and assist elderly people where they had actually one of the lowest COVID death rates in all of the planet because of the measures that they took before they were able to develop the vaccine. So then basically what happened is that the sadistic nature of the U.S. blockade prevented them from even importing oxygen. The president talks about a story. where they were trying to import oxygen from Germany, from all these other countries,

and they actually had calls from the U.S. directly to these countries and directly to these manufacturers saying, no, they wanted maximum death. I mean, wrap your mind around that. It's absolutely insane that the U.S. was preventing oxygen tanks from getting there. And, you know, he describes one scene. It's really hard to wrap your mind around of people literally hand-pumping ventilators for hours on end to keep people alive. Like eight hours, everyone is hand pumping these ventilators

because they could not get the oxygen in time. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable that's what they were reverted to do. And that's what they're struggling with today. So, you know, that's what they were dealing with until they knew the necessity of creating these vaccines because they knew that they couldn't survive under the conditions of the blockade

because of what the U.S. was doing to prevent them from getting medicine and prevent them from getting the supplies that they needed. And so within just a couple months, they developed their vaccines and they had 90% of the population vaccinated within weeks. And it was a huge success story. Incredible what they did. I mean, they were the only essentially like underdeveloped country in the entire world that was able to develop their own vaccines. And it's not just COVID-19. I mean, when I was there, I was blown away at the diabetes medication they have. I mean, in America, you see people with lost limbs constantly because of necrosis because of diabetes. Cuba, they have actually eliminated that.

They have like a direct shot that can actually completely eliminate necrosis from diabetes. And so that it's insane that that, it's like a blockade prevented from us. not only that, but they have several cancer breakthroughs that can essentially extend people's lives for several years that have terminal cancer, lung cancer, I think liver cancer, ovarian cancer. When I was in Cuba, I was like, I was pleading with the biotechnologist. I was like, please give me the cancer vaccine for my lungs. And they were just like, no. They're like, you have to have lung cancer first.

You can't just get, it's not, they're like, we're not that good yet. And we can't give you like a preemptive cancer vaccine, but come back when you do have lung cancer. I was like, all right, I'll be back when I do, probably inevitably. But it's just amazing. Again, if Americans only knew what they were prevented from getting, it would just be if the news only told us the medical breakthroughs that we were prevented from, I think, you know, selfishly, maybe the blockade would end. Yeah, Alzheimer's research as well as another. Yeah. So what I'm hearing is all the ways that they've been creative, inventive, and resourceful,

even with the boot on their neck, right? So as you said at the top, you know, what would be possible had they not been under warfare during this entire time? What would the Cuban Revolution do, right, for them and for the world? It's really amazing to think about. And, you know, one thing I'm watching is since the release of the film, there's been these reports that there's been economic and social reforms, things like expanding the role of private businesses and cooperatives, giving state-owned enterprises more autonomy, encouraging foreign investment,

and even loosening restrictions. And I know it's like, you know, this is very topical news, but I'm curious, is this a sign that, you know, socialism is weakening in Cuba and it is transitioning to capitalism? Is it even true that we know of this? Or, you know, what's going to? You know, what's going on here just to the best of your understanding? It's not completely unique. We did see similar reforms, obviously, on a much smaller scale during the normalization process. And under the predecessor, Raul Castro, we did see that opening up of small businesses, restaurants, for example, things like that. This is obviously happening on a much larger scale. Definitely could be characterized.

as capitalist reforms, but I think the context of the necessity for survival really does matter. And I think that we can go back to the kind of instructive rhetoric from Fidel Castro during the special period when he talks about, he basically talks about how sometimes it's necessary to take a step back economically in order to preserve the gains of the revolution. So I, you know, I think people are obviously understandably very worried looking at Cuba as seen as they're completely capitulating and acquiescing to the confines and dictates of the U.S., and that is not what is happening. In fact, President Miguel Diaz-Cannell has said over and over again in every single speech since these reforms have taken place that socialism is the answer to this capitalist barbarism, that they are doing this simply out of necessity to preserve the game. unlike Venezuela, which literally is under the dictates, like it is literally now a client state and a vassal state of the U.S. Empire being run from Marco Rubio and his cohorts in D.C. and Delci Rodriguez is a vassal for that. This is not what is happening in Cuba at all. So I think that we need to look at these measures as simply survival measures, and we can be really clear-eyed and honest about them that a gun, is to their head. They are doing what they feel is necessary in order to survive, literally. But it does

not mean that they are diminishing their revolution. It does not mean that they're diminishing anything that they know is the glue to the entire society. And that is all of the incredible gains and their value system. I'd love to explore what are all the possible pathways for the future that you see? because I see this happening that we were just talking about. And you mentioned Trump's kind of plan or saying that he's really, and Rubio saying that they're really going for regime change. But then we also see the international solidarity, right? In the film you show that in the United Nations,

it was all countries voted to end the blockade except the U.S. and Israel, which was really interesting. So, you know, what are all the part? possibilities for how this can play out. I know we cannot predict the future. And it can totally change overnight. But what are all the pathways that you're seeing are possible right now? I think let's get the worst out of the way. One of the possibilities is them to attempt what they did to Venezuela. But I think they know that that's not going to have the same outcome. That if they did some sort of operation where they bombed a bunch of sites and kidnapped Diaz-Canel, that they would not

crush the revolution. It's a completely different project that we're looking at, and you can't just take out the top and replace it and have it under your thumb. I think that the only way for that to happen, and this is why I think that we haven't seen this, is because they know it's going to be hugely disastrous and unpopular on a global stage, is to actually do like a full-scale invasion, where they usher in some sort of Pinochet type actual dictatorship that actually is going to mass murder protesters and really, you know, put Cuba in dire straits just under the thumb of a complete foreign mafia power. I don't think that that's going to happen. I think Rubio is capable of that.

I think Trump is capable of that. I don't think that Cuba is going to go down easily. I think there's going to be a huge fight, and they've been preparing for decades for that very scenario. So I think because of that, it's the same reason why they chose not to invade Venezuela, because they know that there's tens of thousands of people mobilizing and preparing for that very moment,

and they simply can't take the chance because they're cowards and they don't know how to fight on that terrain. And so because they know that, and they know that simply bombing them from the sky in replacing Diazcanel is simply not going to be the outcome that they want. So I think that's why we're seeing this maximum pressure, insane campaign, where they are trying to make it completely unlivable. I don't know what they think is going to happen because President Miguel Deiaskinell

is not just going to give up power and surrender his leadership. And if he did, it would simply be taken over by another cadre in the Communist Party who's loyal because they have a very tight circle. So I don't really even see what Marco Rubio and Trump are trying to do. It's like this project has survived for 70 years for a reason because of the power of it. And you cannot crush that overnight. You certainly can't crush it with just more expixating sanctions. They know how to survive.

That's all they've ever done is survive under this. They know how to live. They know what they need to do. and it's not going to create some mass unrest where they're going to overthrow their government, like this government's tried for 70 years. So let's get that out of the way, because that's what obviously the U.S. wishes to happen, but I just don't think it's feasible and possible. You know, in terms of international solidarity and the good outcome of this, I think Cuba will survive as it always has, and I think this is the worst that we're going to see.

I think, you know, if we can stave off this nightmare, I think, you know, if we can stave off this nightmare, I think that we're going to see a very optimistic and hopeful future for Cuba. We just have to get through this period. And I think that's what they're hoping for too. They're hoping to stave off the worst of what is happening, the worst possible president, the worst possible secretary of state. And essentially, this threat applied to the world. And what we saw, the maximum pressure campaign resulting in Australia

and all these other countries basically abstaining from the vote for the first time. So for the first time, actually, it wasn't just the U.S. Israel, it was other countries abstaining, and that's a huge pivot as well. It shows you the cowardice and complicity of the world stage to say, yeah, we're going to go along with this collective punishment of Cuba for your sadistic maniac. Oh, God, it's sick, Della. But I think that we should have a much more optimistic lens, because I think Gaza changed the world forever. We're never going to go back to what once was. We're never going to go back to Cuba being in the backdrop, being kind of this invisible problem where it's just only hardcore like revolutionaries who care about Cuba and who are trying to normalize relations with this country. I think that we're going to see Cuba folded in now to collective liberation in the same breath that we see Gaza. Because people understand the connective tissue of these issues. They understand that Cuba is the same struggle as the liberation of Palestinians. They understand the threat that poses to the planet.

it is US imperialism. This is the outcome of that same exact global machinery. And that's why it's not going to get lost. It's going to be at the forefront. It's going to be a pillar. It's going to be a core demand. And that's why we need to push for international solidarity, collective liberation, and the end to U.S. imperialism. Yes. And another reason why the people of Cuba are not going to just, yeah, suddenly protest and demand a new leaders, because they're understanding. that and they're understanding the root causes of what they're facing as you articulate it. They understand that it's U.S. imperialism that is the root of this, right? Exactly. So I'd love to read a quote from Fidel that's featured in your film. I love the footage and one of them was a speech

of his. He said, I have 9.5 million siblings, siblings and ideals, siblings in homeland, siblings and revolution. Those are truly my siblings. We have millions of children. Those are are truly our children. For them we fight, for them we labor. And as President Diaz-Canal points out, you know, the, and this relates to the title of the film after Castro, that a really important thing today is that the revolutionary deals are passed down to people who were not even there for the time of the revolution. This is really a central question. How can a revolution reproduce itself politically and ideologically after the generation that made it is gone? That's kind of a really core question. So, you know, he kind of ends with this, uh, hopeful note of the Cuban youth

and the Cuban youth in relation to the survival and the evolution of the Cuban revolution. So share about kind of his hopefulness there and what you see by way of the role of Cuban youth today. It's a great point. And I think there's a, a schism, obviously, generationally, for obvious reasons, this kind of detachment, not only from the revolutionaries, like Diaz Canel's parents and him, not only that generational difference, but the generation that now lives on social media. This is a generation that's lured by Western capitalism, that's lured by their, you know, their relatives in Miami. And at this point, you know, the U.S. really doesn't even need to pay people on the ground in Cuba anymore. They can just kind of bolster and subsidize influencer operations that exist not even inside Cuba.

because people are getting their news on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok. And that, I think, poses a big problem and challenge for Cuba's future, just like it does for all of our, like the entire world. It's like this ideal that doesn't exist, this war that is hollow. And that's the challenge. The challenge is going back to the basics, the core tenets of what makes us human, what makes life worth living. It's the struggle. It's the, it's the movement to try to fight for a better world. For us, for our children, for the environment, to live in harmony with nature, to have a value system that's based on internationalism, on solidarity, on love, not on hatred,

on discrimination, on death and destruction like capitalism is. It's, it's, it's, It's something that the young people of Cuba are going to really have to fight. They're going to have to fight. And I think as the world sees, we're in or out at this point. There's no towing the middle ground. There's no endorsing the status quo. You have to go all in. There's no passively watching from the sidelines anymore.

And living in the heart of Cuba, it's hard to stay. That's why so many people are leaving. It's a challenge to stay. But we have to stay, just like it's a challenge to stay here. I would love to go and flee to Canada or Barcelona. I choose to stay in the heart of this imperial project because I want to make it better. I want to fight for a better outcome. I know my privilege and my duty as an American citizen.

And I just encourage all youth in Cuba to stay, to stay and fight for the political project that you know is possible. that's always existed and to cultivate and cherish that and lock it down because it doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. And we have to, we have, the world needs Cuba. Cuba doesn't just need the world. We need Cuba to survive as a beacon for hope for all of us to continue to fight for a different possibility, a different outcome because I refuse to see to the notion that this is the end of history. I refuse to accept the fact that these technocratic billionaires have decided the outcome of my children's life. And I'm going to fight for something different, just as I know millions of people across Cuba are going to fight every day, that they're fighting with their

blood, their lives, their tears, their sweat, surviving the worst conditions that my government has thrown at them just to live another day and to put one foot in front of another just to show the world that they're surviving. So thank you for doing that for all our Cuban brothers and sisters. And that's why it's so important for us to lend our solidarity, keep educating people about Cuba so we can continue to help preserve this incredibly unique political project and fight for it to go to its full potential and to come to its full fruition of beauty, love, revolution. Yes, absolutely. You're reminding me of a quote from Miguel Dias Canel in your film where he says that sometimes folks are called by the siren of U.S. imperialism to leave the country.

It was a powerful phrase. And yes, let's close with your closing invitations for those listening. And I really want to encourage folks to check out the film, Cuba after Castro. It is available freely online, and we will link to it in the show notes, as well as Earth's Greatest Enemy. And I really encourage folks to see them in community, if possible. I know you're touring, but also folks can get folks together or find the nearest screening. So there's many ways to see it with others, which is really galvanizing. And to talk about it with others, what it brings up and what it encourages us to do right now.

So, you know, as we close, what are your invitations? Folks fired up. They're ready. They want to demonstrate, act in the solidarity that we're feeling and hearing from this conversation. What would you encourage? What would you invite? I think we need to, there's so many things that we can do. You need to do everything that you can with every ounce of your ability.

Speak about this issue loudly, proudly. Do not live in fear. Do not be scared to bring up these issues and to pressure all of your local politicians. I mean, if we had simply resolutions and solidarity, that would go a long way. To try to make politicians have a statement on this issue and to try to push diplomatic means that way. in terms of having community events and efforts, it is absolutely essential that you hold screenings of this film, that you also make it fun. There's Cuba Libre, Viva Cuba events all across the country held by DSA, PSL, all these communist groups. And it's so awesome, actually, to have an event where you actually celebrate Cuban culture and Cuban life and really make it fun.

Because there is this kind of dower, like, viewpoint of, you know, that all these. These things need to be really depressing and demoralizing. Absolutely not. We like to have fun. We like to party. We love to dance. We love to sing. We love to just have fun with our comrades and friends celebrating how amazing and rich Cuba's culture is.

And so do that. Do that all day long. And, you know, be loud and proud about it. And that's, you know, use this film as a tool not only to educate yourself, but to educate everyone that you know, bring it into community spaces and have conversation and discussion groups about what you can do with the knowledge. And we have to just continue to integrate Cuba into every single thing that we discuss, whether it be immigration, ice, whether it be climate change, whether it be Gaza. Everything needs to be folded into this understanding of what we are doing to Cuba, why we are doing it to Cuba and what needs to happen to stop this madness. Cuba aftercastro.com.

Thank you so much for the conversation. you guys are the best. It was amazing to come on. I really appreciate it. You've been listening to an upstream conversation with Abby Martin, journalist, activist, founder of the Empire Files, and director of the films, Gaza Fights for Freedom, Earth's Greatest Enemy,

and Cuba after Castro, the island in the crosshairs. Please check the show notes for links to any of the resources mentioned in this episode. Thank you to Haley Hendricks and Max Garcia-Cons. for the intermission music. Upstream theme music was composed by me, Robbie. Upstream is entirely listener funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants, just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. Subscribe to our Patreon for bi-weekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, and for stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Through your support, you'll be helping us

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