Upstream - Cuba Pt. 2: ¡Viva la Revolución! w/ Manolo De Los Santos

Episode Date: February 24, 2026

In this episode, part 2 of our new series on Cuba, we're joined again by Manolo De Los Santos for a conversation on Cuba's revolution.. Manolo De Los Santos is a founder of the People's Forum and a researcher at Tricontinental: Institute for Social Research. He is the co-editor Viviremos: Venezuela vs. Hybrid War, Comrade of the Revolution: Selected Speeches of Fidel Castro, and Our Own Path to Socialism: Selected Speeches of Hugo Chávez. The conversation picks up where part 1 left off, in the early 50s, setting the stage for lead up to 26th of July Movement and introducing some of the main characters of the revolution, including of course Fidel Castro and Ernesto "Che" Guevara. Manolo tells us about the attack on the Moncada Barracks, Fidel's exile to Cuba where he meets Che and begins training, and their return on the Granma to Cuba's Sierra Maestra mountains where they reignite the revolutionary guerrilla army of the 26th of July Movement. We talk about the Battle of Santa Clara which led to Batista's overthrow on January 1st, 1958 and the triumph of the revolution.  We explore the role of political education in the revolution and the role that the United States played in resisting the revolution. We then talk about the reforms that were initiated immediately after the revolution, the largest and most significant being land reform and de-privatization as well as some of the complexities of the early revolution such as elections. We analyze the Guantanamo Naval Base, notions of nonviolence and Cuba's material support of revolutionary movements across the globe. Further resources: The People's Forum Tricontinental: Institute for Social Research Let Cuba Liva: Donate Support the Nuestra América Flotilla to Cuba Related episodes: Listen to our ongoing series on Cuba Intermission music: "Que Se Vayan" by El Guajiro Upstream is entirely listener funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants—just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. Subscribe to our Patreon for bi-weekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, and for Upstream stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Through your support you'll be helping us keep Upstream sustainable and helping to keep this whole project going—socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund so thank you in advance for the crucial support. patreon.com/upstreampodcast For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Instagram and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

Cuba's revolution is a profoundly socialist revolution. But it's not just because of what its leaders read or didn't read, but it's profoundly a socialist revolution because from the very beginning, it chose as its political base. It chose as the vanguard of political change in Cuba, the working class, and the peasantry. It understood that these were the two groups of people who ultimately had nothing to lose

and would be the only ones willing to take the revolution or the struggle for Cuba's independence to the last consequence. It's a revolution made by the humble, of the humble, and for the humble. It's a revolution of the poor. It's a revolution of the lowest people in society for their own sake, for their own dignity, for their own survival. That's what the key revolution is. And that's what makes it a truly socialist revolution. You're listening to Upstream.

Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. A show about political economy and society that involves. fights you to unlearn everything you've thought you knew about the world around you. I'm Robert Raymond. And I'm Della Duncan. The Cuban Revolution has been one of the most long-lasting and inspiring examples

of actually existing socialism in practice. A truly magnificent and awe-evoking event which helped it change the course of human history. An ongoing process which has survived attacks and assaults by the Western capitalist class since its inception. and a triumph which continues to stand up as a beacon of hope and as evidence that, yes, it is possible to break the chains of empire. In this episode, part two of our new series on Cuba, we're joined again by Manolo de los Santos for a conversation on Cuba's revolution. Manolo de los Santos is a founder of the People's Forum and a researcher at Tri-Continental Institute for Social Research. He is the co-editor of Vibbi Ramos. Venezuela versus hybrid war,

Comrade of the Revolution, selected speeches of Fidel Castro, and our own path to socialism, selected speeches of Hugo Chavez. And before we get started, Upstream is entirely listener-funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants, just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations.

We could not keep this project going without your support. Subscribe to our Patreon for biweekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, and for stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Through your support, you'll be helping us keep upstream sustainable and helping us to keep this whole project going. Socialist political education podcasts are not easy to find, so thank you in advance for the crucial support.

And now, here's Della, in conversation with Manolo Delo Delo Soutis. All right, Manolo, welcome back to Upstream. So happy to have you back on the show. And I know we had you introduce yourself last time, but maybe for this time, if you could reintroduce yourself briefly. And this time, share what impact did the Cuban Revolution have on you personally? Well, first of all, thank you for having me back on the podcast. You know, when I think about why or how the Cuban Revolution impacted me personally, I just have to matter of fact, as a Latin American, as someone from the Caribbean say that it altered the course of our history.

I don't know if we would be able to recognize ourselves as who we are today in terms of our resistance, in terms of our capacity to dream even without 1959. It's a before and after for how all of Latin America understands itself. Yeah, absolutely. And as we are talking today about, you know, that time right before 1959 and then that period of revolution, we would be remiss not to also name what's happening in Cuba today as we record this conversation. So maybe just to begin, what are you noticing? What are you sensing? What are you, what's going on right now in Cuba? Well, it's been now several weeks of Trump's fuel block.

which is, I would say it's like the greatest escalation in the 60-year war plus year war against Cuba. I mean, it's gone to the point where as I talk to friends, family on the island every day, it's just seeing everything that makes a society work and run sort of grind to a halt. The desperation that that creates, the upsetness that that creates is precisely what U.S. government planners have been hoping for for decades. I mean, this is the essence of the Mallory memo written 60 plus years ago about how they wanted to push Cubans to the point of having to overthrow their own government or to be able to live. Sadly, it's kind of what we're seeing now. And it's kind of, I would say, progressively worse because it's not that this blockade kind of just

is a new element in U.S. policy, but that it's, it comes on top on years, on decades already of affecting Cuba's electrical grid, of affecting every way in which Cubans have to reproduce and survive for themselves. But to me, the most enlightening element of all of this is in the midst of this fuel blockade, in the midst of progressively the worst scenario the Cubans have faced in decades, their morale is through the rule. their sense of history is profound. Their understanding of who they're up against and why they have to fight against it,

no matter what, is immense. I don't know a more heroic people than the Cubans. I mean, I think it's the Gazans, the Palestinians and the Cubans are up there with each other in terms of just pure heroism against bloody empire. Yes. And, you know, it's interesting in these times, one of the frames that I've seen is,

and the fuel blockade, Cuba is not a threat. There's an interesting frame of Cuba is not a threat. And I want to know your reaction to that, because for me, when I read that Cuba is not a threat, I, you know, thinking about studying the revolution. And I'm like, well, it may not be a threat militarily, but ideologically, right, the symbol. And like you said, what the revolution has meant. that is actually a threat to U.S. imperialism and to U.S. hegemony.

So I don't know, just any response to that of this kind of framing. I totally understand it, right? And the fuel blockade, Cuba's not a threat, right? But what's your response to that? I mean, I think in response to Marco Rubio's words, in response to Trump's executive order, in response to what the U.S. establishment is saying about how Cuba presents some sort of military

military danger and how, you know, all the enemies of the U.S. are somehow hosted in the small island 90 miles away. I think it's important for us to affirm that Cuba is, in fact, not a threat. Cuba does not pose an immediate danger to the national security of the United States. It never has. On the other hand, I think Marco Rubio's and Trump's statements also point out to the ways in which Cuba is a ideological threat, a political threat. Because I go back. back to Trump's quote because he synthesized this so well, we will never allow anyone to question our domination in the Americas ever again. And that's what Cuba has done for 60 plus years. It has questioned every day by virtue of its own existence, the domination of the U.S. and the region,

but further, Cuba has questioned U.S. hegemony over the world. I would say a few countries have actually not just posed political speeches against the U.S. imperialism, but have actively worked to undermine U.S. imperialism in every possible way. I mean, when Cuba sends doctors to countries around the world, they're undermining the belief that

healthcare is only a privilege for the rich and powerful in the global north. They affirm that by giving it, providing quality access to health, care to millions of poor people around the planet, that gives poor people an opportunity to become organized and to become capable of shaping their own futures, free from the rule of U.S. Empire. That by itself is a great threat. That is why we see Marco Rubio literally hunting Cuban doctors down, making sure that countries cut off their agreements to have Cuban doctors.

They don't want Cuban doctors in Guatemala because the threat would be the threat would be so huge of Cubans giving people a right to live, showing that people have the right to live. How dare they? That is what makes Cuba such a great threat in our times. So let's dive in to the revolution. So we're here today understanding, yeah, what happened, you know, both for just honoring, you know, that experience and that meaning of it, but also for what it means today. So we left off our last conversation in the time before the revolution in the 1950s. We have Batista in power. We have incredibly high levels of inequality. We have U.S. ownership and control over a lot of land industries, banking. We have a lot of repression.

So what I want to start with first is what were the strategies for change that people tried before revolution? I think that's a great place to start because, I mean, we talked about it last time, but I think I wanted to go a little deeper this time in the sense of Cuba had a vibrant political culture has a as a vibrant political culture that goes back centuries of mass mobilization, of mass participation in politics.

The period after 1902 when the neo-colonial Republic is imposed on the Cuban people instead of actual independence, it led to both arise in major labor struggles, meaning, you know, unions of Cuba began to play a major

political role, organizing strikes across sectors, and including the organization of multiple general strikes against successive lines of corrupt and inefficient governments in the country. There were political parties that were formed. One of the leading ones was the Communist Party of Cuba, which is founded by, it has a connection,

actually, to the previous history of Cuba's struggle for independence. You know, members of the Cuban Revolutionary Party who fought alongside Jose Marti are among those who become the founding members of the Communist Party of Cuba in 1925, alongside a new generation that is learning to fight in this period. The party is extremely active in labor struggles, social struggles, women's struggles, racial struggles on the island.

But they're also progressive sort of, I wouldn't call them social democratic, per se. I would say they're more of, a radical liberalism that was prevalent in Latin America in the 20th century, that, for example, really championed the ideas of the 1940 constitution in Cuba, the ideas that there should be land redistribution, the idea that there should be social justice in the running of the country. And there were parties like the Authenticals, or the Authentic Party, or the Orthodox Party that both kind of captured elements of these aspirations

that were mostly concentrated among the middle class in a way. for a clean republic or a better republic. But progressively, the 1940 constitution was nothing but a piece of paper. There was nothing about it that was enacted, that was actually brought into place. And the 1952 coup by Batista effectively shuts down all legal avenues of struggle, meaning the Communist Party was banned almost immediately. they had to go underground in many ways. The orthodox and authentic parties are also not allowed to have open political activity.

Labor struggles are immediately shut down, meaning that the possibility of striking becomes much more harder in this repressive environment. So for a generation of young people, particularly the generation that identified itself with the centenary of Jose Mardi's birth, which became like a big movement across the island, La Generacion de Centenario, it was called. They looked at petitions. They looked at organizing mass mobilizations,

organizing strikes. They had open political activity, but Batista's regime made that impossible. I mean, when the students at the University of Havana famously went out to protest, they were met with brute force, like full-on police brutality. bloodied and attacked for simply raising the right of the students to protest.

Women's groups were brutally attacked for protesting. Elections were effectively cancelled. So there was a scenario in which even the normal elements of bourgeois democracy that would have allowed some level of critique in society and opposition were effectively shut. And this left only one avenue to people in Cuba who wanted to see change. And it's important to affirm this because I don't know of any revolutionary in history that chooses violence as their primary strategy for change. Neither Lenin nor Mao or any other political force that has led revolution exclusively says violence is the only way we want to change society. It's an option that is forced on oppressed people everywhere,

across the planet. And that is not the exception for the Cuban revolutionaries. For people like a young lawyer like Fidel Castro, he was running in elections in Cuba before 1952. He was in fact a leader in these progressive political formations that were taking place in Cuba. He would have most likely become a leading political figure if there had been democratic elections in Cuba. He could have risen up the ranks in a sense in that way. If the Communist Party

had existed legally, if labor unions could have existed, there would have been a different type of changes that we would have seen in Cuba. I don't think revolution itself would have not happened. I think it would have been delayed in the ways that we know it, but I think that ultimately

the strict closure and the strict repression of 1952 with Batista's regime basically opened the way to the only other path for changing Cuba. And that was the armed struggle. Yes, absolutely. I think, yeah, when I learned that Fidel had run for office, right, and you're right, he was a lawyer.

So trying the legal pathways and the protests and all of this first, right? And then no other option. But arm struggle, thank you for voicing that. And so let's go into the key cast of characters in the Cuban Revolution. So you mentioned Fidel, but there's several other people who were a part of it. So who might you introduce as we set the scene for the revolution? I always, I feel like there is a risk that I miss some key characters out, but I will do my best. I mean, I think there's sort of two stages of that revolutionary process that has, I think, their key cast.

The first stage, which really begins with, again, the generation of the centennial of the centennial of Jose Marti, The first group of young people who begin to meet early on after the coup and who begin to organize the first steps towards what became the assault or the attack on the Moncala barracks, they start meeting in a quaint little apartment on 25 and O streets in the Vedado neighborhood in the house of two young revolutionaries, Abel Santa Maria and his sister, Aydeh Santa Maria. two incredible young people who grew up actually on an American sugar plantation. Their parents worked in the plantation industry, and who, precisely because of that experience, grew up with a fierce anti-imperialism or fierce hatred of the system imposed by the American sugar barons. You also had figures like Mel Bernandez, a young woman Cuban revolutionary,

who along with Aide would become the two women, only two women who participated in the assault of the Moncada attacks. You have, of course, Raul Castro, who is a figure in his own right. I think that people often assume that there's like some sort of nepotism or some sort of like, Fidel kind of just put his brother as a mechanism to keep some sort of family legacy alive. But on the contrary, Raul was an active student leader, also a card-carrying, communist before the revolution, unlike Fidel, who was extremely active in student struggles. But there are also other characters. I mean, there are people who sort of come into the process after the Moncala attack,

who come from different sections of society, different backgrounds, not just politically, but also geographically. And two of those people who I always highlight are Celia Sanchez, who grows up in eastern Cuba, and because of her father's work as a doctor, ends up developing an acute knowledge of the lives of rural people across eastern Cuba and becomes a gifted organizer at a young age. First, organizing in a sense what you would call charity

for poor people in the region, but ultimately turns that capacity to organize into organizing, essentially the underground network that would eventually support the armed struggle in the Sierra Maestra. Another crucial figure to that part of the process is Frank Paiz, who is a young Baptist student organizer. I always emphasize this because this is important for people to know that they were Christian revolutionaries. There were people who were not socialist.

There were people who were not communist, but who deeply felt the same level of injustice that revolutionaries like Fidel and Raul also felt. And he became essentially the leader of the underground network across Cuba. He was after Fidel, perhaps the most hunted person by the Batista regime in the later years of 1956, 1957, 1958. And I feel like there's a long list of people, but the most important character that often doesn't get enough mention is the Cuban person. peasantry. To me, the protagonist of this whole movie is the Guajitos, or the Guajitos, the peasants of Cuba, the farmers. A group of people who mostly throughout Eastern Cuba were landless, were forced to work essentially as serfs on great plantations owned by

mostly American but also Cuban landowners. And who, had nothing to lose in a sense and therefore became the rock upon which the Cuban Revolution was successfully built. The revolution could have not succeeded if it had not been for the Guajitos, the peasantry of Cuba. To this day, they continue to play, I would say,

a remarkable role as a strong, important political base for the revolutionary project. Thank you. And I do appreciate the kind of part one and part two. right part one being the moncara attack and the well fidel going to prison right and all of that and then him being exiled to Mexico and then part two is the return right and then there's there's also new a new cast of characters who join on that granma boat return and you know going up into the sierra maester mountains so starting with that part one tell us you know you described people gathering in this apartment

And then, you know, what was that attack on the Moncada barracks like? And also the date is also very important there too. So what was that, what happened there and what was the aftermath? Well, the attack on the Moncada perhaps is the major turning point for the history of the Cuban Revolution because it was in many ways a tactical failure and a great strategic success. and understanding the contradiction, but also the unity between these two ideas is key. Because the objective of this assault on the Moncala barracks, which was like this, it's one of the most important military barracks in eastern Cuba,

was not so much that they would immediately take power. Fidel and the revolutionaries didn't have this concept. Their objective was that by taking over the Moncala barracks, taking its weapons, and having a quick victory, they would inspire, essentially, a new wave of armed struggle in the country that had, as its symbolism, the start of all previous wars for independence in Cuba,

always in the East, you know? And Fidel very cleverly always thought about guaranteeing that there would be a historical connection between the generation of Maximo Gomez, Antonio Maceo, Carlos Manuel de Cespérez, and Jose Marti with their current struggles for the true independence of Cuba in the 1950s. So Fidel essentially leads a group of 160 young people

recruited from across the island who, you know, the night before on July 25th, he gathers them at a farm, the C1A farm, not that far from the city of Santa Rica and tells them, you know, this is our moment. Many of us may not survive this next day. Anyone who wants to leave, this is their chance. No one will be considered a coward if they do not continue forward with this mission. But these 160 young, brave and heroic people under the darkness of the night

and under the cover that it was also carnival time in Santiago, Cuba, took on the attack of the Moncala Barracks. And it was quite quickly a tactical failure for many different reasons. Some of the units that they thought would be away partying during Carnival were in fact woken up and actually quite ready to confront the attackers. Some people lost their way because most of them weren't from Santiago, so they didn't know how to make their directions correctly in Santiago, Cuba. So some people were late.

but only one of the units essentially was able to fulfill their tactical mission that day, and it was Raul's group. Raul Castro was from the beginning the only one who seemed to have serious military capacities and knowledge, which would prove fruitful years later. But many of them were killed that same day. The horrific thing is that many of them were taken prisoners by the Batista's military, and instead of being held prisoners and being taken to court, were essentially executed, extraditionally executed that day.

In fact, Fidel would have been among them, had it not been for a sergeant, a black sergeant, who famously intervened to save Fidel's life. But most of Fidel's comrades were killed that day. And what comes next essentially becomes a major political trial in Cuba because Fidel and the remaining survivors are essentially forced to appear in court and defend themselves. And instead of defending themselves as in simply saying we're not guilty, Fidel actually starts defending himself and others by claiming that Jose Marti is the intellectual

author of this attack and that everything they've done or their pursuil of this attack was actually in light of Jose Marti's call to duty of all Cubans to fight for their true independence and to fight for social justice. And that in itself shook the courts and shook public opinion in Cuba. At a time when the Batista regime itself was trying to claim Jose Marti,

there's a famous speech that comes out of that trial, the history will absolve me, which essentially is, Fidel instead of having to defend himself he becomes the accuser of the Batista regime and he accuses the Batista

regime of a series of inequalities that are existing in Cuban society he gives probably the best conjunctural analysis of all times describing with full detail everything that's wrong in Cuban society from the illiteracy to unemployment

to the lack of a granderary reform or land reform in Cuba, the great injustices that the Cuban people face. But more importantly, and I think this is, like, again, what makes Fidel

the revolutionary that he was, is that he says all of this, but finishes off by saying, we're not going to tell people that the only solution to this is to trust in us. The only solution to this is to fight. So all of a sudden,

the courtroom becomes the call to arms for all of revolutionaries in Cuba to rise up and join this movement of young people, which after this day, essentially becomes known to the public as the 26th of July movement for the day they attacked the Moncada. Yes. All right.

So we have the Moncada attack on the 26th of July. We have, yeah, it didn't go well, like you said. I love what you said. It was tactically not a failure or not very good, but strategically very important. And then, yes, the executions right after horrific and also this platform that Fidel was given to give this speech. And yeah, history will absolve me, that famous phrase. You know, looking back, would you say history absolved Fidel Castro? I think history has proven beyond any doubt that Fidel has been absolved because they essentially take the Munkada speech.

He actually, while still in prison, Fidel asked Aides-Santa Maria and Mel Bernandez to print this speech, the history will be, and to spread it across Cuba. It becomes fire in public opinion. Everyone in Cuba reads it. It's read around the world. And it becomes the program of the Cuban Revolution. It becomes like their manifesto that they carry on years later. To the point that, like, for Fidel later on, the proudest thing he could say, actually,

more than history will absolve me was, did we fulfill the program of the Moncada? Yes or no? And the answer decades later of success of the Kim Revolution is, yes. They dealt with every question. They answered every question raised by Fidel in the Moncada speech.

Are there any quotes or specific elements of that speech that you want to uplift? There's so many, but can I share a silly one? Yes. In the course of the trial, Batista's regime's lawyers bring up all the horrible evidence of Fidel, you know, the plans for the Moncala attack. And they find in one of the apartments that they use a set of Lenin's complete works. And the Batista regime kind of puts that in public opinion. It says, look, they're communist, they're evil communists.

This was an evil communist plot supported by. by the Soviet Union, of course, you know, to which Fidel very calmly responds, yes, we read Lenin. Anyone who doesn't read Lenin is just ignorant. It's a question of universal culture. But it exemplified already how fearless they were, but also when people ask later on,

what are the politics of the Kim Revolution? Fidel was reading Lenin before the Moncada. So after his arrest, the tribal, the speech, the time in jail, right? He was in jail for many months. He was exiled, which is so interesting, too, that he wasn't executed, right? But Fidel and comrades were exiled to Mexico, where, as you said, they really cultivated this 26th of July movement. So tell us about that decision for Batista to exile him. And then tell us about that period in Mexico. There's new people who joined the cast and also, you know, what did they do there? How did they train for what was to

Well, interestingly, because of the publicity generated by the Moncada trial, which again, that's what made it a strategic success because this is what Fidel wanted from the beginning with the attack of Moncada, is to raise the public consciousness of the people of Cuba. You know, a movement essentially began in Cuba demanding amnesty for the survivors of the Moncada. And there was massive public opinion pressure on Batista, and he was essentially, essentially, forced to grant them amnesty. In hindsight might have been their biggest mistake, but it was really a question of how much public pressure there was

at the time. They're exiled to Mexico, and immediately in Mexico, Fidel starts both recruiting movement members to come to Mexico and start training, but he also starts a very important political process of

building sort of building both the structure of the July 26 movement abroad, meaning like solidarity clubs with the July 26 movement across the region, even in the U.S. Fidel actually traveled to New York and other cities during that time of his exile

to fundraise for the July 26th movement and to organize among Cuban Americans and the Cuban community living in the U.S. to support this process, which was quite popular. but he also started meeting with members of the other political forces in Cuba, from the communist movement to the Orthodox Party, the authentic party, all these different political forces,

to try to essentially build a broad political front for the liberation of Cuba from Batista's regime. But you raised the, I guess, the question of the cast. This is where figures like Che Guevara, who was recently exiled from, Guatemala. He had been there during the revolutionary process there. The Arbenz coup forces him and many other Latin Americans to flee to Mexico. And Mexico, in fact, at this point in history, is pretty much like it is today, actually, a focal point for Latin American political exiles

from all over, from Argentina, from Brazil, from all over. And Che meets Raoul, who introduces to Fidel. There's a moving story, you know, that Che writes about his goodbye letter to Fidel in 1965. And he says, you know, I remember the night we met in the house of Maria Antonia in Mexico City, the beginning of this deep friendship and camaraderie between the two. But they're also important figures like Wang Almeida, Afro-Cuban revolutionary, who ends up becoming one of the commandants of the revolution, who all gather in Mexico

city, and they begin training with, interestingly enough, a veteran of the Spanish Civil War, Alberto Bayo, Cuban by birth, but who served in the military of the Spanish Republic during that very important anti-fascist war. And they begin to train for armed struggle. Of course, you could say, how does one train for such an endeavor? They would do multiple hikes up and down the valleys and mountains outside of Mexico City. They trained in many in basically how to use firearms, how to

fire their weapons. This is mostly a group of people who are training for the first time. So it's quite an experience for them. And in this group is not just Cubans. There are several Latin American exiles who, other than Che who joined them from Dominican Republic, from

Puerto Rico, from other parts of the region. And it's a group that once they set off for Cuba again on the famous Grama Yat, it's a group that doesn't know at all what to expect when they land in Cuba. In fact, they're met with quite a surprise. But I don't know if I'm going too far now. Well, let's go to what was happening in Cuba at that time. So you mentioned Celia Sanchez and Frank Paiz, but yeah, there were people who who were still in Cuba.

So what were they doing while Fidel was in Mexico City with this group going up these hills and hiking and training and also these, I do love what you said about, those late night conversations in Mexico City talking about revolutionary struggle all across Latin America. Like what a powerful, a powerful time that was for all of them. But what was happening in Cuba? Well, in Cuba, there was a major anti-Batista struggle

still unfolding under a lot of repression, under a lot of severe difficulties, but the group of people that Fidel was coordinating with on the island, led by Frank Pais, essentially were calling for a general strike for the end of November to coincide with the arrival of the Granma. The idea would be that the general strike, which would bring in hundreds of thousands of Cuban workers into the streets. And, you know, in Latin America, when we say General Strike, it often means violent political struggle on the streets. I mean, it would have been,

the army would have been preoccupied with keeping the peace on the streets of Santiago and major cities, rather than waiting for the arrival of the revolutionary. So it was a very carefully planned tactic. But the grammar was delayed by several days. One, because of the climate and multiple storms along the way, But also, because the things that happen on journeys like this, someone was thrown overboard by the storm,

and Fidel refused to keep moving until they found this comrade. You know? And they eventually found them. But it cost them, all these abhazards along the way, cost them time. And they didn't land until after the general strike. They didn't land until December 2nd. So it was a big ship for their plans. But as soon as they arrive, they're essentially met already by Batista's military forces who essentially in the first two to three days massacre most of the group.

Most of the group is killed. Very few survive from that original group of young men who came on the grandma. And in fact, it was reported that Fidel died, right? They claimed that they killed him as well. So, yeah, what happened then? I know Fidel went into the Sierra Maester Mountains. So tell us about that journey. And yeah, what was that experience like being up in those mountains with those who survived

and those who were cultivating the resistance while they were gone? Well, it's, you know, I think it's hard to describe fully the shock of arriving and seeing most of your comrades killed, you know, of 82 men who arrived. and the gramma, very few survived. And they're all essentially scattered. I mean, they all had to essentially run in their own directions. So for two or three days, they're kind of wandering aimlessly throughout the Sierra Maestra, trying to find each other and trying to recover whatever they have. People, you know, there's sort of like a foundational story of the Cuban Revolution

that takes place three days after they land in a place called La Elegre de Pio, where, you know, finally, Fidel and a group of 12 surviving men find each other. And they find each other and they're counting how many weapons they have. And they realize among the 12 of them, they only have seven weapons left. And what is possibly the most despairing moment of knowing there are only 12 of them, they only have seven weapons, and they're facing a superior, a vastly superior army

that controls the air, that's constantly bombing them, that has them surrounded, Fidel famously quips and says, well, now we've won the war. And this is the type of, I would almost call insane optimism of Fidel,

of never feeling that defeat is certain or that defeat is ultimate. You know, that there's always, a way to overcome defeat. And that is the optimism that all revolutionaries need to have in adverse conditions. After the Aligrella de Pio,

they essentially begin to build the first major nucleus of what would become the new 26th of July guerrilla army in the Sierra Maesra, which begins to grow in part because they begin to attract members of the peasantry, of the Guajitos, living in the mountains. people who join them, sometimes with nothing, no guns, sometimes not even enough clothes on their backs, but who become the foundation of this new revolutionary army in the mountains.

And this period, particularly over the year going into 1957, is essentially a year of small battles, a year of small intense battles, but where the... The revolutionaries, Fidel, particularly, choose the battles themselves. Rather than allowing themselves to continuously be harassed and surrounded, they choose when they want to fight. And they slowly accumulate strength and force through this war of the guerrillas. I always recommend reading Che's own account of this period. Because, you know, it's these decisive moments in which Che himself went from being the doctor of the army

to having to drop his medical kit and pick up a gun in one of these intense battles in order to defend his comrades. And I know Celia Sanchez said that these were some of the best of times, too. So there's a, yeah, a really warm sense of those times in the Sierra Maester Mountains. And like you said, they chose their battles. They also chose how they wanted to share out about their activity. I know that this was also a time when they called reporters to come visit them. I don't know, do you want to tell that story?

Because that feels also strategically important, how to frame what they were doing and why. I mean, I think that from the very beginning, Fidel had an important sense of why and how their story had to be told. That part of how they would win this revolutionary war would to let the people of Cuba know, but also to let the world know what was taking place. And immediately, one of the first requests that Fidel makes of Frank Paiz and Célez-Sanchez is, you have to bring journalists to the Sierra Maestra. Like, you have to. Like, this is a huge priority.

And they bring, partly to journalists to break the story that Fidel, in fact, is not dead, which was one of the main talking points of the Batista regime in order to say that, you know, there was nothing happening in the Sierra Maestra. but also to reaffirm that there was this potential, that there was this hope for actual change in Cuba, that people should not be demoralized to think that nothing would ever change. In fact, everything was increasingly changing quite fast. And one of the journalists that comes to Cuba

and is brought to the state of Myanmarstad is Herbert Matthews, who is this interesting character. He's what we would call a liberal journalist, writing for the New York Times, but someone who had a certain sense of the truth, and I would say was a type of liberal that does not exist in our world today, which was a liberal, an American liberal who sympathized with the underdog, who sympathize with the struggles of people in the global South. And he comes to the camp site in the Sierra Maestera, where he meets Fidel and he talks for hours endlessly with Fidel and other revolutionaries, and he's the one who public. And he's the one

who publishes in the New York Times the story of, A, Fidel is alive, but also this is a real army. Of course, Fidel played some tricks on Herbert. Famously, he ordered, they only had a small group 30, 40 men at that time. He told them to march around in circles endlessly, to create the impression that they were much larger than they were.

But I think Herbert came back with a sense of, these were real revolutionaries who had a serious political, objective in a program. They weren't bandits. They weren't criminals. They weren't corrupt people simply out there for the lust of killing. They were actual revolutionaries.

You're listening to an upstream conversation with Manolo Delos Santos. We'll be right back. Imperialists that that are in peace that terminate in the blocker

in harmony we're going to in the sudor of Guajiro nas in the future of the people what that produces the country

is the part of the the world of the stranger Hey! That's go two imperialists

that they're in peace that go two imperialists that

that they're in peace tussure of the caean that

should be not be not That they go That's going The next Avion That they're

And that They go To go to To caray That's Two Imperialists That they're

They're in peace That's That's Those imperialists That's that they're

in peace That's That's going to be That was Ke Séviets by El Guajiro, written and recorded specially for this upstream episode. Thank you. Now, back to our conversation.

with Manolo de los Santos. So tell us more about the coalition building of the revolution, because this is really important. There's this guerrilla group in the Sierra Maestra Mountains, but there's also the rural peasants, there's the students, the urban workers, there's the Communist Party. So, yeah, tell us about how did he build coalition and this more of a movement throughout the country at this time. I mean, because of the level of repression and restrictions imposed by the Batista regime, and also because of the high level of corruption, Batista created enemies across society. And I would say those enemies had very little in common other than their deep disdain and hatred of the Batista regime.

They hated the way Cuba was essentially living under a... dictatorship. They hated the fact that their country was being robbed of the potential to come into its own. And some people may have not agreed with Fidel's tactics, but ultimately understood that what was happening in the Sir Maisera was possibly the most hopeful experiment in social change in decades to have taken place in Cuba. So Fidel started meeting with people from the bourgeois people from the middle class, people from Cuba's working class. He started meeting with, like you said, everyone from the student sector that started to organize across cities in Cuba, but primarily in Havana, and had a robust movement against the Batista

dictatorship. He also was meeting with other political forces, again, from the orthodox and authentic parties. But most importantly, Fidel was interested in sort of speaking to not just political leaders, but I would say what we would call now influencers or influential people from across all sectors of society with the premise that the new Cuba that would come after the time for the revolution would have to be a Cuba built with everyone for the good of everyone. I think Fidel from the very beginning demonstrated a highly non-sectarian spirit. The idea that the 20th of July was not the only political force in Cuba and that they would not be able to win by themselves. They worked with

the directorio. They worked with the Communist Party, even though they had real disagreements among themselves. But united really by the premise that the dictatorship of Batista was unsustainable, was unacceptable and it had to be ended by all means and those who could fight and join in the battle had to join

and the armed struggle that was being led in the Sierra Maestra, which is also something that often gets missed when people talk about it is that it wasn't in isolation from other forms of struggle

that continued in Cuba like the labor movement the workers movement actually continued against high levels of repression often leading illegal strikes across the country.

This was major. There was an underground, urban armed struggle movement that was, you know, attacking police stations and, you know, leading all sorts of attacks in the cities. The student movement was extremely active.

There was a movement of mothers of victims of political repression that became massive in cities across Cuba, meaning that arm struggle was one factor of a multiplicity of tactics that were taking place, all creating greater and greater tension within the island. It became clear by 1958 that it was only a matter of time for Batista to fall.

Everyone began to see that the level of struggle taking place in Cuba, again, not just a Sierra Maestra, was going to lead to an overturning of the situation. And so they did win, there was victory, the morning of January 4th, first, 1959, which I just think is so powerful that it's literally the first day of the year. And in that, Batista left. He flew out of the country with several of his cronies and a huge fortune. So like a lot of wealth. So tell us about that victory. What happened there? What led to it? And then what was that like that moment when they learned Batista had left? Well, I think there are many factors that we talked about, all these different tactics that

contributed to this moment, but militarily, I would say the biggest factor militarily that ended the Batista dictatorship was the moving of the war from eastern Cuba to the rest of the country. And this was essentially an offensive led by Che Guevara in the central provinces of Cuba, primarily centered around what became known as the Battle of Santa Clara in December of 1958, which basically broke the back of Batista's army. Batista, in response to this

moving offensive into Santa Clara, sends a military train packed with a load of weaponry, all supplied by the U.S. government, by the way, that seeks to stop this military offensive by Che. And in a fierce battle

that took several days in Santa Clara, Che forces the resignation of the military commanders in that region, forces the surrender of most of the military forces, and takes over, derails that train and takes over that weapons depot, essentially. That kind of seals it for the Batista. His own military men saw that. It was, they were not going to be able to stop an offensive into Havana. And in fact, several of Batista's lieutenants essentially try to work out a deal with Fidel in advance so as to like continue their

government without Batista, a dictatorship about Batista. And Fidel cleverly negotiates in a way that says, you know, we're willing to negotiate about everything, but neither Batista or his people can stay. And between Santa Clara and those negotiations, Batista runs away, lutes the bank of Cuba. takes away millions of dollars, which have been unaccounted for until, even to this day. And January 1st, they revolutionarily triumphed and marched into Santiago de Cuba first before they start a journey, essentially, with Fidel at the lead, and what they call the caravan of freedom from Santiago de Cuba all the way to Havana.

They don't actually, people often mistake this. They don't enter Havana on January 1st. They enter Havana, January 8th, January 9th, I believe. Caravan of Freedom. That must have been just an amazing experience. And yeah, you talked about just now, like, what was Fidel's response to those who were in Batista's army? Because just like you said before about the Moncada barracks, like what happened immediately after for those who were captured were executions. So, you know, as this shifted, this victory, what was Fidel's stance? And also they're, because there were some even disagreement, I understand, of like, what to do with those who formerly served as Batista's army? You know, how did that unfold, the kind of trials, tribulations, and all of that for people who were prisoners, but also who really were pro-Batista under his regime? Well, to answer that, I think we have to go back into the war in the city of Maesera, actually,

because throughout the war in which the revolutionaries faced in combat their enemies of the Batista army. They always made a distinction between soldiers and even officers who had no choice but to fight for Batista's army and were fulfilling their duties, which the Cuban Revolutionaries always respected and they always treated them basically under the Geneva Convention, you know, treated as prisoners of war and many of them were often released rather quickly. In fact, some even joined the Revolutionary Army. But, you know, there weren't, contrary to popular fiction, Fidel wasn't executing enemies in the Sierra Maestera.

This is rarely ever seen. The lives of enemy soldiers was respected highly, actually. And they kind of take the same philosophy when they win. But the distinction is made between regular army officers and soldiers who were members of the army and simply were fulfilling their duty versus people who actively planned massacres, people who actively killed and tortured and repressed Cubans. People, you know, in the list are out there of known criminals

who killed young people innocently, who killed extraditiously before the Trump Revolution, they were put on trial, and many of them received a death penalty. the U.S. media immediately made a huge sort of fuss about it and created this sense of like extrajudicial trials, but there were nothing but. I mean, these were legal trials with actual judges,

actually tribunals, filmed. They were made public, you know, like all of the human people could see it. And there were trials in which victims and families of victims would make testimonies and publicly declare what happened to them or their family members. imagine in public it was heartbreaking. I mean, you have people crying and sharing how they were tortured under Batista's regime

or how their family members were killed and they had to be justice. And the revolutionary applied, I think, in a very specific time period, a very limited number of executions. You can count the number of executions that have taken place in Cuba since then. rare and in between.

But this was a part of the history. I think that the revolution triumph in January 1959, there was this major outburst of joy across Cuba. Millions of Cubans came out to the streets to celebrate and many wanted to take justice into their own hands. I mean, one of the first things that Cubans did across the island was to both destroy casinos

because they represented such a big sign of American imperialism on the island and to destroy parking meters as a sign of the corruption and the Batista dictatorship at the time. But the revolution had to control as much of that outburst to not let it turn into just outright violence on the street. And they did that successfully, you know. There weren't mass acts of violence across Cuba after January 1st. So we have this caravan going across the country.

We have these trials. we have this breaking of casinos and parking meters. I love that. What else was that sense right after the victory? What did it mean for folks? And what were some of the first policies or decisions enacted? I mean, I would say the feeling it's of euphoria. I mean, because it's like what some people thought was unthinkable a few years earlier was now reality.

the idea that A. Batista was gone, that a dictatorship in the Caribbean and Latin America was gone in a time in history in which there were still military dictatorship across the region was incredible. I mean, it was euphoria for the Cuban people, or I'd say euphoria for the rest of Latin America. There was also, I think, a sense, a deep sense of being honest among us, of what the hell do we do now?

I mean, one talks about taking power, but once you have power, once you're in power, once you've taken over the state, you begin to think, okay, so what do we do? And they had thought about some of these things in the Sierra Maestra. It wasn't that they had completely not thought about these things. But, you know, in the Sierra Maestra, they started the first land reform and the first sort of acts of justice.

The first literacy campaign started in the Sierra Maestra, among peasants and among soldiers of the Revolutionary Army. But now they actually had to think about how to do this for an entire country. And immediately, I think, the challenge of what it means to govern became a reality for them. You know, there's a famous meeting where they're talking about who takes up what role. Fidel is asking, who is a good economist among us? Do we have any good economists? Do we have any good economists in the room?

And Che raises his hand immediately and everyone starts laughing and nobody knew Che was a good economist but he says, oh, I thought you guys were asking who's a good communist in the room? So it's like this crazy moment of these young revolutionaries having to take up responsibilities.

So in fact, Che does become the head of the Central Bank of Cuba. You know, a young Argentinian communist in his late 20s no financial experience beforehand becomes the head of the Bank of Cuba. but so do all these other young revolutionaries. And immediately they start thinking about the most important reforms

that needed to take place, which was, for example, to slash the cost of rent in all of Cuba, to slash the cost of utilities, and perhaps the most ambitious project, which was land reform, which was hotly debated because there were even people within the July 26th movement and within the revolutionary ranks

who were kind of advocating for a slow approach to land reform or a land reform where big landowners could still somehow enjoy large tracks of property. But Fidel signs that land reform in April of 1959, I believe, and essentially it's like the biggest blow already to both the hegemony of private landowners in Cuba but also the U.S. and it kind of, I would say, it goes uphill from there. So for the U.S, it goes downhill, but for the Cubans, it goes uphill because it's a heated day after day, week after week, month, to month, major announcements that come out every day about how Cuba basically becomes a country for its own interest. Self-determination becomes a reality.

Among the first acts is to start ending segregation in Cuba. people forget that there was real segregation in Cuba if you were right before 1959 and that in fact there were variations and forms of Jim Crow legislation that existed in Cuba until 1959 and that Che himself had to get on a tractor in Santa Clara to throw down the guardrails in public parks that prevented black people from walking in public parks in Cuba

laws had to be put in place that all Cubans could have access to public beaches. All beaches were made public in Cuba. Imagine living on an island where you can't access your own beaches. Actually, that's the case of Puerto Rico today, where so much beaches are privatized. The Cuban Revolution ended that. Beginning to provide health care as a human right.

Education. Within a quick succession, that became a reality for the Cuban Revolution and for the Cuban people. Yeah, huge changes. And one thing I understand happened in that land reform piece was Fidel's own family Finka, family farm was one of the first to be deprivatized, decommodified. Can you say more about that? Well, I think integrity and honesty were big factors for Fidel always.

So when they were talking about the need to do land reform, I think Fidel said, our family farm has to be the first one. Like, how dare we launch this land reform? across the country and not actually take responsibility for the huge tracks of land that his father had previously owned and that were under the control of his family. I think they decided early on that, you know, even if Fidel's mother would hate them for it, even if she would cry about it, that they had to do this as an act of justice. And they did so, you know.

It was a huge first step. But that scene was across the country because there were other members of the Roeuf Shrine movement whose families also own. land and who had to go through this land reform. It was the biggest also demonstration of how far Fidel was really to go, that there was no sense of corruption or family loyalty that would hold back the dreams of this revolution. So what about elections? Because I know this was also something that that group talked about, you know, and also were there promises of free and fair elections? quote-unquote after the revolution and then, you know, was that changed? So tell us a little bit

about the complexity of elections during this time. Well, I think in this period, this particularly early period of revolution, there were no mass public demands for elections in Cuba. Like, no one was protesting in Cuba for elections. I think it's a demand that some sectors of the bourgeoisie and some sectors of the middle class had because their hope in some ways was that the return to the 1940 constitution would have been simply a return to the electoral democracy that Cuba knew before 1952. But early on, I think Fidel and the revolutionaries kind of make a point, which I think is important for us, even in our own context today, to think about that.

Revolutions are not meant to be U-turns. revolutions are not meant to be sort of like let's go back to a somehow a vision of the better past that we think we had at any given point like I don't know if I'm stepping into contemporary politics now

we don't want to go back to after Trump to the Biden era like that's not what change would actually look like that's not what democracy would look like for us in these terms Fidel kind of raised the same thing when we think about democracy for Cuba post-59, we're thinking about democracy

where the poor, the working class, the peasantry have the ultimate say. And that is not a democracy that is determined by elections solely. And therefore, elections are not a priority, particularly at a time when everyone is actively participating in other forms of democracy. I mean, this is a period in which

not only are there mass mobilizations across Cuba, I mean, millions of people are literally on the street, every day agitating and organizing around a million things in the advancement of the revolution, but they're actively for the first time getting involved in local organizations and revolutionary formations. Young men, young women, children, everyone in Cuban society is like actively doing things that is determining their future. So people, honestly, in this moment, felt that, you know, what does it mean to vote or what does it mean to have elections when essentially you are already

the master of your own destiny and you're changing everything that can be changed? I mean, you're literally in the middle of a revolution. So let's trace the threat of communism through the revolution, right? So you mentioned Raul Castro was a card carrying communist. I know he spent some time in the Soviet Union and Fidel wasn't, you know, right before the revolution. You mentioned the text of Lenin, right? You mentioned the Communist Party, but just trace for us the threat of communism through the whole time of the revolution and whether you would say the revolution was quote-unquote communist. Well, I tend to stay away from simple answers to complex questions because there were many

members of the revolutionary movement who were communist. I mean, Che Guevara was a communist in the... the revolutionary process. Raul Castro was a communist. I believe Fidel was a communist, was a communist. These are all people who had actively engaged before 1952, before the Sierra Maestra, with the ideas of Marxism and Leninism. Again, Fidel was very open about it in the trial. I think a lot of them engaged with the ideas of Marxism and Leninism, not because simply they were interesting ideas, but because they saw in these ideas a avenue

an instrument for the type of liberation that Cuba desired and needed. I think like many others around the world, I think of Ho Chi Minh, Mao, they don't come to Marxism because they're bored and have nothing

else to study. They come to Marxism because in the absence of any other ideology that is deeply anti-colonial, that is deeply emancipital, that is deeply emancipital, that is deeply for self-determination, Marxism was it.

The Soviet Union, having defeated fascism after World War II, the Soviet Union that was the main anti-colonial champion, was the only reference for a society that could be different. So for young people or across the world, it was the most natural thing to want to study Marxism. And I think that's the case for many people like Fidel Raul and Che. But you also have other people like Ayreira-Santa Maria, who were very explicitly, you know, I always recommend people read her reflections on the Moncada,

where she very explicitly says, you know, I didn't go to the Moncada being a Marxist. I went to the Moncada as a follower of Marti. But in the journey after the Moncada, also realized that Marxism was the only way to recover our independence, to build a future for our country. You know, and now it became inseparable. We can't have Marti without the Marx or vice versa. And in that case, Cuba's revolution is a profoundly socialist revolution. But it's not just because of what its leaders read or didn't read,

but it's profoundly a socialist revolution because from the very beginning, it chose as its political base. It chose as the vanguard of political change in Cuba, the working class, and the peasantry. It understood that these were the two groups of people who ultimately had nothing to lose and would be the only ones willing to take the revolution or the struggle for Cuba's independence

to the last consequences. And that's been the case since then. Fidel, in 1961, as the Bay of Pigs invasion has started, Cuban cities are being bombed by the U.S. And Fidel gives the famous speech, I believe, on April 15th, April 16th, in 1961.

You know, what is this revolution? And Fidel defines that it is in fact a socialist revolution, but it's a revolution made by the humble, of the humble, and for the humble. It's a revolution of the poor. It's a revolution of the lowest people in society for their own sake, for their own dignity, for their own survival.

That's what the key in revolution is. And that's what makes it a truly socialist revolution. So what was the role of political education in the revolution? I know he did these speeches. I know there was the arms struggle. But what was the role of political education in the process? The process of the key and revolution, the success of the king of revolution, in part is due to the high level of political education, engaged with the broad masses of people. I mean, the speeches, Fidel giving a speech was a class.

I mean, when he spoke for hours, it was a class on history. politics, philosophy, to the broad masses of people. But they actively did engage in itself in other forms of political education. One of them was in the classroom. I mean, millions of people had to learn to read and write. And, you know, the literacy campaign was one major step in which young people, sometimes as young as 10 years old, 11 years old, 12 years old, would go into the countryside, but across the country, to teach others to read and write.

And I think for people of the global south of the third world, learning to read in a way is the first step towards having a sense of consciousness of their own reality, of beginning to understand the world they live in. And that was one major aspect of political education. But the other elements of political education at this time was the fact that people began to join organizations. I mean, people began to join, for example, the committees in defense of the organizations. revolution, which essentially became the black level organizations that most Cubans belong to to this day. Learning to organize on the block was literally the greatest form of political education. People who joined the armed forces, people who volunteered for the women's group, the Federation

of Cuban Women. There's a series of things in which people became engaged in. But there's a think another element of political education which became, I think, important for the relational process is that is engage all forms of media. One of the first laws that the Cuban government made was to start a national film institute called Ikekeke, which began the task of producing films by Cubans for Cubans to talk about their reality.

I mean, some of the first films were literally about the reality of landless farmers or peasants in Cuba. So the whole country would understand why land reform was so urgent. They began to make documentaries about what poverty looked like in Cuba. They started to make documentaries also about the importance that the Cuban Revolution was beginning to hold in the imaginations of freedom-loving peoples and people struggling for freedom all over the world. They start making documentaries about the civil rights movement in the United States.

Films become a huge tool for political education. But so does all the other media. I mean, print, one of the first things Che leads, essentially, is the publication of books. They want Cubans to read, to have access to books. And Che orders the first book that they mass publish in Cuba is El Quixote. And they begin to publish other classics, not just of the Spanish language, but of books from across cultures.

By the end of the 60s, Cubans are reading African novels, you know, before they're even being read in the U.S. it's an incredible process of political culture, of political education, of mass engagement with ideas, based all really on Fidel's own concept of, we don't want people to simply believe the revolution. We want people to read and believe for themselves. I'll add one of my favorite elements of media from Cuba

is the poster art. I love Cuban posters. I actually have a ton of them in my hallway. So just so beautiful and powerful statements. So let's trace another thread, the United States. What was the U.S.'s role in the revolution? Well, we definitely can't ever forget that the U.S. is another main character in this cast. And that it primarily for most of this period of the struggle is clearly and massively supporting the Batista regime.

I mean, they're supporting it through. the sending of weapons systems, military funding, funding for the Cuban military. They're funding all of Batista's political projects. They're giving him essentially a blank check to continue operating as he had in a government of corruption, repression, against the Cuban people.

But as the U.S. government begins to realize that Fidel and the Revolutionist Center Mayans have a strong chance of being, beating Batista, they begin sort of thinking about what would be a certain way to sort of engineer an alternative to the revolution, meaning, you know, again, a solution of dictatorship or Cuba without Batista, but definitely without the revolutionaries. And they kind of support the idea of different candidates or different figures, political figures, who could be figureheads for a new government in Cuba, but none of them had a base. None of them had a political movement behind

them. None of them had any real political chances, actually. So the U.S. at the triumph of the revolution has to kind of begrudgingly accept the triumph of the revolution. The Eisenhower administration at the time kind of begrudgingly has to recognize this new government, but begrudgingly. with major suspicions already about not just whether they were communist or not, but rather than what are their intentions regarding U.S. properties? What is their intentions in terms of protecting U.S. interest? And Fidel makes a trip to the U.S. in early 1959 that kind of, again, changes, it's a before and after.

It changes to rules because it had always been the tradition of Latin American leaders, presidents, elected officials, upon winning to visit the United States to basically ask for the blessing of the U.S. and to ask for funding for their projects from the U.S. It was always a beggars trip, essentially, a trip with no dignity. And Fidel is like the first leader who comes to the U.S. not to ask for anything. And the Americans are shocked. I mean, Nixon, who is the one who meets with Fidel, Eisenhower, doesn't want to meet with Fidel.

Nixon is the one who receives him. Immediately comes out of that meeting saying Fidel's a communist. Like, how could he not ask us for money? He clearly is not, you know, he's not making himself submissive to our interests. He's not actually

offering to protect our interests. Therefore, he has to be an evil communist. And, you know, the famous Bay of Pigs invasion starts getting planned then. It starts in the Eisenhower administration. The U.S. government immediately begins to say, I don't know if we can actually live with this government. We actually have to find every possible way to overthrow it. And I love the photo from that visit of Fidel standing in front

of the Lincoln statue, this huge statue. And Fidel looks really tiny and it just is such a David and Goliath image. And another thing I found, Fidel in the revolution, wrote Celia Sanchez, and he wrote her saying, once this struggle is finished, I'll begin the real struggle of my life. The fight I will wage against the United States. I believe that is my true destiny. So it's like, yeah, the revolution had this victory

and yet definitely not over, right? Far from over the, in some ways, the real struggle had just begun, right? And the important thing to say is that Fidel doesn't say this simply out of spite or out of anger to the U.S. just, but actually in continuity with Jose Marti's own warning to the Cuban people as he is killed in the 1890s, Jose Martín dies with a message basically to his friends saying,

be worried that if we allow the U.S. to take over Cuba, they will use Cuba essentially as a form of controlling the rest of Latin America for their own interests. And therefore, we have to organize a government. against the US. That's what Fidel is thinking about. Fidel is thinking that the battle essentially is to prevent US imperialism from controlling Cuba

and through Cuba controlling the rest of Latin America. Again, responding to Trump right now, preventing the domination of Latin America and the Caribbean has been the task of Caribbean and Cuban revolutionaries going back hundreds of years. And they have had to face all the things time against the U.S. government, against the Monroe Doctrine, against every phrase, every concept of either Latin America is the backyard of the U.S. or the idea that Latin Americans owe their loyalty

automatically to the U.S. That's what Fidel was fighting against from the beginning. You may not know the answer to this, but why did the U.S. maintain control over Guantanamo after the revolution? Well, there are several factors to this. One is that the U.S. had essentially signed, I believe, a hundred-year contract or 99-year contract for the lease of Guantanamo Bay. That lease expired a long time ago. And the Cubans have never had the interest of renewing it. In fact, the U.S. continues to always pay its annual rent check for the use of Guantanamo Naval Bay. The Cubans have never accepted these checks. They've never cashed them.

There must be millions of dollars and interests somewhere massing up, which Cuba could definitely use at a time like this. But Cuba has simply never accepted it. And they don't accept it because they believe that, and with reason, that the least to begin with was illegal because it was based on the illegal Platt Amendment, which was forced upon the Cubans. The Cubans had no say on whether this lease could be signed. And since then, the Cubans have made vocally clear in international forums at the UN to the U.S. directly in negotiations that they don't accept U.S. authority over Guantanamo Bay.

It's an affront to Cuban dignity. It's a front to international law that the U.S. continues to hold on to Guantanamo Bay illegally. So I want to go now to the role of weapons and military training. And I ask this partially because, you know, in the broad history of struggle, there have been approaches that are nonviolent, you know, nonviolent approaches, which are really, you know, beautiful and honorable and often even successful. But, you know, how should we understand the Cuban Revolution and the role of weapons and military training in changing a society? compared with nonviolent approaches, especially when we think about movements today, right? And we think about all of the complexity around guns and weapons in the U.S., but more generally in this effort for change. So how do you reconcile that and how would you look at the role of weapons in military training in terms of the revolution?

Well, I think we always have to make clear that it's not a moral decision. It's not a moral choice. It's not about whether guns are good or bad. which is often how the debate is sort of talked about in left circles or U.S. circles today. Like I said before, violence was forced upon the Cuban revolutionaries. I think they could have, through other means, successfully waged their struggle. I don't think they would have been prevented from winning precisely because they had chosen other methods or other tactics. I think violence was forced upon them.

like it is forced on the people of Palestine. Like it is forced on many other peoples around the world even to this day. So when we talk about tactics today, it's not a question of, again, whether we morally agree or disagree with armed struggle or we have a moral preference for nonviolent struggle. I actually think that debate is irrelevant.

I think that is really determined by the context in which people are struggling. If there is the, space to mobilize and organize and ways within a legal system that allow for it, use it because every revolutionary on the planet would too. I don't think anyone, including Fidel, would have simply chosen armed struggle if they had other means to their disposal. So after the revolution, Cuba became trainers and supporters of revolutions around the world. So can you talk about that history and its legacy.

Well, I feel this is something where it's very personally connected to my own history because the Cubans, like I said before, their revolutionary process was deeply impacted by the struggles of other Latin American peoples. And with them in the Sierra Maestra, with them on the Granma, throughout this whole journey, they had other Latin Americans with them from across the continent. including some people even from the U.S. And for example, when Fidel first met Che, one of Che's conditions for joining this group was

that Che wanted to be able to, when the time was right, join or be part of processes to free the rest of the continent. The Cuban Revolutionary Project never saw itself as an isolationist political project. In fact, they always understood internationalism or the idea that they had to fight for others' freedoms as conditional as a key element of their own struggle for freedom. So their first, like almost immediately, like within months of the Kimi Revolutionist's triumph, they begin training revolutionaries from the Latin American and the Caribbean.

The first group to go free Dominican Republic from the Trujillo dictatorship. and that group leaves in June of 1959 to fight in the Dominican Republic, led by a man named Enrique Jimenez-Moya, who had actually been on the Granma with Fidel and Raul and others. He was one of the few survivors of the Granma expedition, had been the captain of the Granma boat. And he later on plays a tremendous, role in the Sierra Maestra campaign. In fact, he's one of the main gun smugglers for the July 26

movement bringing guns into the Serra Maestra. He then leaves in June of 1959 with Cuban support and with Cuban fighters actually to fight the dictatorship of Trujillo, which had been sponsored by the U.S. for 30 years. Ultimately, they fail. They land on the 14th of June and are massacred. But just like the Moncada, it inspires a whole new movement, the way that of revolutionary struggle into the American public. Same happened in Venezuela, in Guatemala. Across the region, Cuba begins to offer its support to revolutionaries from these countries

to begin armed struggles in those countries. Many of them without success. But ultimately, Cuba is committed to supporting the struggles of other revolutionaries, and that leads ultimately to two really fundamental moments. One, the 1966 Tri-Continental Conference, which becomes the sort of like the formalization. You know, Fidel openly says in a speech at that conference

that Cuban revolutionaries are willing to shed their blood on any continent on the planet in support of any revolutionary struggle. Meaning there is no geographical limitations to where the Cubans are willing to go or what they're willing to do to support revolution on the planet, which affirms that they, again, see themselves not as a Cuban revolution. They see themselves as an internationalist project, a project of anti-colonial struggle,

of anti-imperialist struggle all over. The other fundamental moment in history is 1975, 1976, when the Cubans, against all odds, basically send a large force of volunteers to defend and help Angola proclaim its independence under the threat of invasion from South Africa. Tens of thousands of Cubans flown overnight. Their weapons shipped by sea to go fight for another country's freedom.

There's a huge epic, essentially, that the Cuban Revolution inspires of essentially the strong belief that I think resist to this day, even though Cubans don't send soldiers to the countries that often are anymore, but they continue to send teachers, doctors, overall people to help with this underlying belief that their freedom is deeply tied to the freedom of people over the world. And like Fidel said, if you are not capable of fighting for others, you're never going to be capable of fighting for your own freedom. Yeah, another element of that that I'll share is Che's death, right? Che died in, I think, Bolivia helping with a struggle there. So, yeah, the revolution continued and this idea of like they had their revolution and

then how do we share this out? How do we share out the training, the lesson, and the legacy around the world? And so I want to bring us back to today. And, you know, when I think about what's happening in Cuba, I think about the time of the fall of the Soviet Union, because that had a really intense economic impact on Cuba in the early 1990s. And in my understanding, there was this sense then, as there is now, that Cuba was going to collapse and that communism. in Cuba was finished. And it was during that time that Fidel said in this speech, may our country always have dignity, always be independent, not a Yankee colony. We must save our country. We must save our revolution. We must save socialism, socialism or death.

So I want to ask you, as we close, bring us again to today. How are people preserving, saving, right, the Cuban Revolution today? And what would it take right now? What are our invitations, our demands, right, for Cuba and the revolution to not only survive, but thrive and continue to radiate it out in these ways, both in Cuba and beyond? I love that speech you quoted. It's one of my favorite speeches by Fidel in a moment of crisis, because Cuba's been threatened with collapse many times throughout its history. I mean, Cuba was being threatened with collapse in 1961. And again, in the 70s. and again in the 80s, again, especially in the 90s,

which was probably before this the most difficult period in Cuba's history since the revolution, of literally facing not just the collapse of your whole economic network, of the collapse of your economy overnight, but that at the same time the U.S. essentially chose to put in new laws to effectively strangle the Cuban Revolution. I mean, just like now, there were journalists in 1991, 1992, who were all sort of counting the days. I mean, there were literally headlines in all the major newspapers around the world saying, it's only a matter of days for the Cuban Revolution to fall.

And just like today, the reason why the Cuban Revolution didn't fall then and won't fall now is that the U.S., Marco Rubio's of the world, the Donald Trumps of the world, always underestimate the level of both organization and patriotism that the Cubans have in wanting to defend their country. No matter how difficult the circumstances become, which they can definitely become worse in the coming days. I mean, there's already very little fuel left in the island. Students are at home.

students are faced with a horrible scenario in which there is no way to get to school or to work. Food is going to become harder to transport from the countryside into the city. So we'll begin to see the real difficulties of an induced famine on the island. But the Cubans always base their resistance on their ability to out-organize their enemy. They will find a way to guarantee that whatever is left, whatever food there is, they will distribute to the people in an equal way.

Whatever medicine is left will be shared adequately. They won't leave anyone behind. Their socialism is based on taking care of everyone, not in taking care of the few who can afford it. That's what allowed the Cubans to survive, the 90s that will allow the Cubans to survive now. And in this period, essentially when, again, it's like we see the vultures sort of circling around Cuba, in which they have been given sort of the deadline. Trump says again a few days ago, you know, the Cubans have to make a deal.

They have to make a deal. They have to make a deal. Or else, the Cubans have responded with so much dignity, which is to say, it's just like Fidel called for in the early 90s that. they will fight ultimately to save their homeland because they know that Cuba represents the hope for socialism in the future for all of humanity. They know that if they were to allow the Cuban Revolution to fall, it would be the greatest setback to the revolutionary movement not just in Latin America but around the world since the fall of Soviet Union. It would take decades, if not centuries, for the socialist movement to be able to rebuild itself on serious and concrete terms. So the Cubans know the weight of their political responsibility, not just for themselves, but for the fate of humanity.

They also know that if they were to quit, they were to give up, if they were to surrender now, it would also mean that Cuba would become a U.S. neo-colony forever. And that is a reality they're not willing to accept. So the Cubans are fighting on, and they're calling the world to stand with them. Some of us in the U.S. have been organizing around the need, to send aid to Cuba, the need to send solar panels

so that, like you said, Cubans don't just survive this moment but that they can drive and actually build towards the future. This is the most important element. But others are organizing flotillas, caravans, movements of people to stand with Cuba in their hour of need. Whatever happens, we cannot let Cuba alone. Not just so that Cuba can survive, but so our own dreams of socialism can survive into the future.

You've been listening to an upstream conversation with Manolo Delos Santos, founder of the People's Forum and a researcher at Tri-Continental Institute for Social Research. He's the co-editor of Veevi Ramos, Venezuela v. Hybrid War, Comrade of the Revolution, selected speeches of Fidel Castro, and our own path to socialism, selected speeches of Hugo Chavez. please check the show notes for links to any of the resources mentioned in this episode. Thank you to El Guajiro for the intermission music. The cover art for today's episode is a 1962 poster by Jesus Forians titled Be Alert.

Upstream theme music was composed by me, Robbie. Upstream is entirely listener funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants, just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. support. Subscribe to our Patreon for bi-weekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, and for stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Through your support, you'll be helping keep Upstream sustainable and helping to keep this whole project going. Socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund, so thank you in advance for the crucial support.

And for more from us, please visit upstreampodcast.org and follow us on social media for updates and post-capitalist memes at Upstream Podcast. You can also subscribe to us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And if you like what you hear, please give us a five-star rating and review. This really helps to get upstream in front of more eyes and into more views. Thank you.