Upstream - Cuba Pt. 5: Under Siege w/ Manolo De Los Santos & Liz Oliva Fernández

Episode Date: May 5, 2026

In this episode, part 5 of our ongoing series on Cuba, we're joined by Manolo De Los Santos & Liz Oliva Fernández for a conversation exploring the current state of the island and how Cubans are responding to Trump's oil blockade. Manolo De Los Santos is a founder of the People's Forum and a researcher at Tricontinental: Institute for Social Research. He is the co-editor Viviremos: Venezuela vs. Hybrid War, Comrade of the Revolution: Selected Speeches of Fidel Castro, and Our Own Path to Socialism: Selected Speeches of Hugo Chávez. Liz Oliva Fernández is a Havana-based journalist with Belly of the Beast (a U.S.-based independent media outlet) and the presenter of The War on Cuba.  The first half of the episode is our conversation with Manolo De Los Santos and begins with him recounting what he witnessed and experienced during his recent trips to Cuba. Manolo brings us up to date on the Trump regime's efforts to impose blockades and sanctions on Cuba and then describes what the impact of these assaults look like on the ground on the island. He then tells about the Cuban people's efforts at not just surviving these assaults but continuing to resist and build decentralized networks of support while also working on a centralized scale to continue to organize and build socialism. Finally we look at the global implications of the United States' efforts to subjugate Cuba and tie things together by understanding the war on Cuba as part of the opening salvos of a new Cold War with China.  In the second half of our conversation Liz Oliva Fernández joins us from Cuba to go further into depth regarding what life is like on the island. We discuss the dynamics of energy and solar while being realistic about its short term limitations. We explore the violence that is imposed on Cuba by the United States and bring into relief the toll it has taken on the Cuban psyche. Liz tells us about the various efforts of the Cuban people to resist the United States and gives us a sense of both the exhaustion and the drive towards resistance that is present on the island today. Further resources: ¡Cuba Vive! A Night of Music & Solidarity Let Cuba Liva: Donate The People's Forum Tricontinental: Institute for Social Research Belly of the Beast Related episodes: Listen to our ongoing series on Cuba Listen to our ongoing series on China Listen to our ongoing series on Iran Listen to our ongoing series on Venezuela Upstream is entirely listener funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants—just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. Subscribe to our Patreon for bi-weekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, and for Upstream stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Through your support you'll be helping us keep Upstream sustainable and helping to keep this whole project going—socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund so thank you in advance for the crucial support. patreon.com/upstreampodcast For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Instagram and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

Just a quick announcement before we get started on today's episode. So for those of you who live in the Bay Area, the San Francisco Bay Area, Upstream is co-hosting a benefit concert for Cuba on May 9th, that's Saturday, May 9th, at the Ocean Alehouse. And all donations for this event will go to the Atwe Project, which is bringing much-needed medical supplies to Cuba. And Al-Gua Hero, whose music has been featured in our Cuba series, will be. be playing live at the event and we'll also have special guest speakers including Nikki Franco, aka Venus Fruits, and Gloria De La Reva, who is the leader of the Atwe project. So please check

the show notes to learn more about the event and to register. When your Facebook is such brutal onslaught from the U.S. and essentially your economy is told, you know, you have no access to fuel, absolutely no fuel. I think most societies would. would collapse. Most societies just don't have the level of organization or, I'd say even political principles or unity to be able to survive or compensate or resist such heavy onslaught.

Very few countries have in modern times. I mean, this is like siege warfare at its maximum. So I'm always marveled by, I wouldn't say, I don't like to use that word resilience because it's like the Cubans are, it gives a sense that the Cubans are like adapting to the situation. No, I would say the Cubans are demonstrating an incredible level of resistance in trying to overcome this horrible scenario. You're listening to Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. A show about political economy and society that invites you to unlearn everything you thought you knew about the world around you.

Robert Raymond. And I'm Della Duncan. The brutality of U.S. Empire is difficult to fully comprehend when you're not on the receiving end of it. There's only so much that news clips or soundbites can really convey about the experience. What's also difficult to fully comprehend is the immense amount of heroic resistance that is put up in the face of this empire. Resistance that takes all shapes and forms and which spans multiple generations.

where U.S. imperialism rears its ugly head, resistance follows. And this couldn't be more true for any country than for Cuba. In this episode, part five of our ongoing series on Cuba, we're joined by Manolo Delos Santos and Liz Oliva Fernandez for a conversation exploring the current state of the island and how Cubans are responding to Trump's oil blockade. Liz Oliva Fernandez is a Havana-based journalist with Belly of the Beast and presenter of The War on Cuba.

Manolo de Los Santos is a founder of the People's Forum and a researcher at Tri-Continental Institute for Social Research. He's the co-editor of Vivi Ramos, Venezuela v. Hybrid War, Comrade of the Revolution, selected speeches of Fidel Castro, and our own path to socialism, selected speeches of Hugo Chavez. Manolo was also our featured guest

for the first two episodes of our Cuba series. And before we get started, Upstream is entirely listener funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants, just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. Subscribe to our Patreon for bi-weekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, and for stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Through your support, you'll be helping us keep Upstream sustainable and helping to keep this whole, project go. Socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund. So thank you in advance for

the crucial support. And now, here's Della in conversation with Manolo de los Santos. Welcome back. Let's start with a quick introduction. I know you've been with us twice before, but let's start with a quick introduction and please share the journey that you've been on since we last spoke. Wow, I'm trying to switch with myself in time. I think six, Since we last talked, things have gotten dramatically worse in relationship to Cuba. But there's also just been a major outpouring of global solidarity with Cuba as well. I was a part of the Nostra America Convoy that brought hundreds of activists and aid, a lot of aid that went to Cuba. And I've been probably back to Cuba maybe three or four times since we last talked.

Wow, so many journeys since we last spoke. And do you want to give just a quick introduction to yourself for those who maybe didn't hear the first two episodes with us? Yeah. Well, my name is Manolo de los Santos. I'm an organizer with the People's Forum. I was originally born in Dominican Republic, but have become an organizer. I've spent most of my life doing work either in New York City, which is where I live now, working with the People's Forum, or in Latin America, in places. like Cuba and others doing political education work, organizing, linking work together. And you mentioned that since we last spoke, things have been intensifying. So please bring us up to the Trump regime's latest efforts to Lacey's to Cuba. Particularly, I know even things happened as of May 1st, right? So what are the latest in terms of the actions and words coming out of the Trump administration? Well, as always, I can't give you simple answer. I like to complicate everything and go back in time and say that since the first

Trump administration, I would say there's been a different approach to how US foreign policy deals with Cuba. The objective has always been the same, which is how to overthrow the Kim Revolution, how to take away sovereignty and independence from the Cuban people. But that has always taken many different methods. And we went from a period of regime change through normalization of relations with Obama, this belief that, you know, if you get hundreds of thousands to millions of Americans to come to Cuba, they will slowly begin to change the culture. And before you know, there will be McDonald's in Havana. Trump cut that short when he comes into office the first time. And his approach from the beginning has been one of surgical strikes against the Cuban economy,

meaning very targeted and very specific sanctions to cripple key sectors of the Cuban economy. And going to back to 2019 and 2018 specifically targeting Cuba's electrical grid, meaning Cuba's ability to actually purchase equipment to renew its electrical grid, and therefore we see the consequences of that today. Early on in 2018 and 2019, they started to target Cuba's ability to import fuel at a smaller scale, and that's just kind of incremented since that. And going back to then to the first Trump administration, there was a major campaign to essentially cut Cuba's ability,

to both bring in tourism by essentially putting hurdles in the way of European and Canadian tourists, who were the main communities or groups of people traveling to Cuba, and then also cutting Cuba's medical cooperation abroad, which brought in reasonable amount of revenue for the country. That has basically died tighter over the last year. We've seen essentially at this point four months of a fuel blockade, which is the most intense it's ever been, meaning in four months only one ship of fuel has arrived on the island, namely from Russia,

as a result of U.S.-Russian negotiations. And just on May 1st, there was, for the first time in recent years, a whole new set of a formal sanction applied, which essentially is now targeting Cuba's ability to trade with its orange partners. Essentially saying that anyone who does foreign transactions with Cuba essentially could be sanctioned. Surgical, but in a sense also broad sweep. The U.S. can essentially target anyone they want with a new set of sanctions. And I think it's essentially set the stage for trying to intimidate the Cubans,

trying to give the sense of an ultimatum. Either they surrender now and save themselves or else. And there's the threat of, you know, the Lincoln Carrier group that has been fighting in the war in Iran could possibly come to the Caribbean again and be on the coast of Cuba. Cuba is next. It's the mantra they keep repeating. Yes. And also poetic that this new escalation happened on May Day, which is such a, you know, historic and present-day celebration for Cubans, right? And I also know that there's been negotiations. Can you talk about how the negotiations have factored in? And if there were these negotiations, why this escalation?

Well, I think that the announcement of sanctions on May 1st wasn't a coincidence. I don't think it was random. I think it was actually a typical erratic Trump response to what he was seeing on the screen, which was millions of Cubans marching across the island saying they're ready to defend their country. I mean, it was a spectacular site starting around 6 a.m. In cities across the island. In Havana alone, it was over half a million people,

which is quite considerable considering the lack of fuel and transportation, meaning that whoever was there showed up out of their own willingness. There were no government buses bringing people to the protests. It was pure popular will. And this scene was repeated across the country. People really came out in a sense of unity, in a sense of, you know, even folks who have differences with the Cuban government,

but have their criticism one way or the other, but who firmly defend their country sovereignty. That is the most basic principle, I think, that unites all Cubans at this point. and unites them behind their government, which means that I think the Trump administration is visibly rattled because at this point, four months of constant threats, which would have forced most other countries to agree to U.S. demands.

I mean, we look at how the U.S. is negotiating everywhere else in the world. It's these crazy ultimatums. Do it our way or you will be obliterated. But the Cubans just don't work that way, and they've never operated that way. they've entered negotiations early on, I think, in good faith and with a real desire to say, let's use this negotiation to actually talk about what's wrong with U.S. Cuba relations. Like, what has been the issue for 60 plus years? And the issue is not whether Cuba is communist or not.

In fact, the Cubans have made very clear in multiple statements, in interviews, in direct conversations with the U.S. U.S. officials, that they're not actually willing to negotiate the terms of their surrender, and they're not willing to negotiate the internal functioning of Cuban society, meaning these calls that the Trump administration makes to say, you know, Diascanel, the president of the country, secretary of the Communist Party, has to resign. The leadership of the Communist Party has to resign for there to be a reprieve from the fuel blockade, that Cuba has to free political prisoners, that Cuba has to allow for different political parties to exist, that Cuba has to do this and that.

There's a long laundry list of the U.S. demands. And the Cubans have been so clear. We're not engaging with that. In fact, we're not engaging that because we're not making demands like this of the U.S. You know, there was one Cuban vice minister, I think, who very famously quipped on Meet the Press, said, you know, we're not asking for Donald Trump to free all U.S. political groups. prisoners. The president of Cuba himself said in an interview as well, you know, we're not demanding

that that Donald Trump resign as the condition for negotiations. I don't think any negotiations really starts that way. So it's interesting to see also just the firmness and the dignity that the Cubans have and engaging with obviously a government in Washington that doesn't use negotiations for the sake of actually negotiating. They're using the negotiations essentially to buy themselves time as they prepare their strike plan. That's what we've seen everywhere else. Confirmed in Venezuela, confirmed in Iran. The Trump administration has a track record that is quite visible to everyone now, including the Cubans. You mentioned you've been to Cuba a few times since we last spoke. So share your experience of how the oil blockade imposed on the island is affecting people at the day-to-day

sense. So how would you describe their life now, both in the rural and the urban areas of Cuba? Well, it's really hard to talk about because it's really been a devastating, brutal change of the Cuba I've seen since I lived there a decade ago, the Cuba of even a year ago. the war essentially against the Cuban people that's been in place for all these decades has had a real cruel accumulating effect that has been probably sharpened to a level that I haven't seen in such a long time because, you know, we talk about fuel blockade. We can say this many times over the word sanctions blockade, etc. but it really makes a difference when you're an ordinary Cuban who walks to work in the morning because there's no fuel, there's no public transportation. You leave home without being able to have made breakfast normally because there's no electricity

at home. You take your kids to school knowing that there's no electricity at your children's school. and you work through the day, again, with no guarantee of electricity, and just the most ordinary aspects of life just become inordinately much more difficult. And you walk back home at the end of the day to find that there's also no electricity. Talking about power cuts, maybe months ago were already, you know, between 12 and 16 hours. but that I've now, basically in many parts of the country, both urban and rural reach levels of over 20 hours.

Maybe electricity comes at some point way past midnight, maybe at 2 a.m., 3 a.m. And some people have essentially had to change their whole biorethms because you wake up at 3 a.m. And in some cases, I have close friends who cook everything they can. at that time and wash whatever they can

because that's the other element without electricity there's no ability to pump water there's a major water disruption across inland it just changes everything up about your life everything becomes so much more complex and difficult

and on top of that all the other elements associated with a few blockade which is I think also what make it so clearly genocidal which is it targets food production, the ability in itself to produce food in the countryside at a large scale, and then the capacity to transport it to the cities.

And it means whatever food is available becomes much more expensive on the island. Again, I've not seen Cuba hit so hard in these last few months like I mean I've never seen it so bad and you can see it actually

in the faces of so many friends including people who are you know members of the Communist Party who are cadres of the party but also people who are not you can see it how much this is taking a toll on them physically as well as emotionally

and psychologically it's a lot on top of, you know, having to live under the constant threat of a U.S. invasion. I think it's probably a scenario, again, I don't think it's comparable to the special period. The special period has had his specific characteristics. This is a completely different moment under completely different circumstances. Yeah. And yes, you're right that Cuba has faced this. before in times like the special period and yet this is unique. And so how are people responding?

What does people sense both the practical but also the emotional response to this? That is where I'm always marveled because I think in any other country in this day and age, when you're faced with such brutal onslaught from the U.S. and essentially your economy, is told, you know, you have no access to fuel, absolutely no fuel. I think most societies would collapse. Most societies just don't have the level of organization or, let's say even political principles or unity to be able to survive or compensate or resist such heavy onslaught. Very few countries have in modern times.

I mean, this is like siege warfare, but it's maximum. So I'm always marveled by, I wouldn't say I don't like to use that word resilience because it's like the Cubans are, it gives a sense that the Cubans are like adapting to the situation. No, I would say the Cubans are demonstrating an incredible level of resistance in trying to overcome this horrible scenario. And I see it in the young Cuban doctors who, you know, against all odds, go to work every day, always on foot, all 12 to 14 hour shifts, sometimes more in Cuban hospitals, to give whatever treatment they can to their patients. I talk to a group of young Cuban surgeons who are, some of the surgeons who are essentially working in the dark, working with their cell phones

as they're doing some risky and complicated operations. And they're telling me, for example, that they're not able to do all their operations they would like to do. I mean, there's a backlog in Cuba now of over 96,000

patients waiting for major operations. 11,000 of them are children. It's devastating to hear that. But yet these Cuban surgeons and doctors are still showing up to work every day. It's heroic.

It met so many of the young people across different sectors in Cuba. Like the scientists, there's a group of young scientists working essentially in the medical and the biomedical sector who are essentially working on

a set of medical responses to some of the epidemics that have flared in the last few months. I mean, for example, which the U.S. press loves to focus on visually the piles of garbage because there's no fuel for garbage trucks to be able to take up garbage. Well, that creates a whole new set of infectious diseases

across the island. There are scientists who are working nonstop to try to give the Cuban people an ability to fight that and to not be left alone in the face of such levels of infection. I met some of the young Cubans in the oil industry who are basically doing miracles to basically still produce a small amount of what Cuba produces of its own crude oil. And essentially, without all the chemicals that are needed to refine it, have found new ways to refine Cuban crude oil. I mean, it's just, it's incredible.

It's like the Cubans are showing how incredibly smart and brilliant. Years of training and preparation have basically allowed them to, again, to find solutions in the midst of this crisis. But also to demonstrate that there's no sense of surrender on the island. I mean, I never got a sense that people were afraid of the Trump administration or essentially willing to lay themselves down and become a U.S. colony again. it was remarkable. Again, I think in any other country under this level of pressure, you would have, I think, significant segments of society that would say, why go through this?

Why not take the easier route? I mean, and there's an easier route open to them. I mean, they could easily change their whole system, renounce to building a socialist project, renounce to their independence. And who knows? They could get a deal with Trump. But the people of Cuba are intensely patriotic and intensely revolutionary.

I mean, I was even surprised to see that people who normally would be so much more critical of the Cuban government, of the Cuban Revolution, have essentially adopted in this moment of more of an intransigent position of essentially saying, under no circumstances, could we surrender ourselves to the U.S. So returning to the special period, two of the things that I know really supported Cubans in surviving that time, one of them was having a centralized government, that the centralized government function could make decisions that would benefit all, kind of more equitably distribute the harm caused by the collapse of the Soviet Union. And another was the motivation, right? the motivation of people to continue to show up for the revolution and for one another. So I'm curious whether you saw either of that in the response, the benefit of having a communist government and the centralization of decisions, and then also the kind of motivation

being connected to what would help the people right now, what would be in service of the revolutionary spirit. It's incredible because part of it is definitely the level of organization that Cuba has, which would not be possible without having had a socialist revolution and without the role that the Communist Party of Cuba plays in every aspect of Cuban life. Having mass organizations, having a party, having essentially institutions, each with their responsibilities, creates a greater level of response to the types of crisis that Cuba is facing right now. And at the same time, it's that same level organization

that also gives Cuba, I think, incredible capacity to respond right now, not just with central planning, which I think is obviously an important feature of socialist development and so on, but also of being capable to decentralize and to create a level of more local autonomy that allows people to be able to respond locally

to the level of crisis as well. I mean, for those who don't believe in the concept of democracy in Cuba, i.e. the United States, they wouldn't be able to function unless they had a level of profound and practical democracy in Cuba. And already for many years, there's been sort of a higher and general push towards decentralization of responsibilities and decision-making in Cuba.

But I would say it's taken full speed in this moment. I mean, in the middle of all this crisis during the last four months, for example, the Cuban government launched the debate and discussion around the national economic program. Essentially, how do we respond to this crisis? What is our economic development plan in the light of this crisis? over 2 million people participated in this debate. I don't know what country essentially says, let's figure out how we solve this problem

and let's have everyone give their opinions, meaning that the original document that was suggested or proposed is different from what was returned in the end. Two million people participating in a debate means that everything changes and for the better, from not just the name of the document, which was completely different at the beginning, to essential elements of the document. At this point, food production is being sort of heavily reorganized

to take place in each municipality, so that local people are much more responsible for the production of food rather than having to depend on the countryside. Because, again, there is no fuel to move food from the countryside to the cities. But there's also a greater weight and greater level of responsibility being given to each, municipality, the local government, which in many cases is led by nonpartisan figures, meaning you don't have to be a member of the Communist Party to participate in level of decision-making at the local level. They're being given essentially all the power to make a lot of decisions

about how daily life has to be reorganized to meet these demands of the crisis. So it's a level of political maturity, again, a level of deep democracy that is basically in motion in Cuba right now as a mechanism for survival, which is not the first time that Cuba does this. The special period going back 30 years ago was also another moment of deepening of democracy in Cuba because they don't understand in their concept. There's no way of making economic changes or changes to Cuba's economy without also deepening the ability of people to make those decisions at the most local level. And also, what a time to think about energy, right? So we're facing a climate crisis and then in the U.S. rising oil prices, actually globally rising oil prices due to the war on Iran.

And then what's happening in Cuba? and really, as you've just demonstrated, what happens to a country when there's an oil blockade. So let's talk about what does this moment tell us about the potential for energy transition, right? Whether that's Cuba refining its own crude oil, so that's one pathway, but also the implementation of solar. So from countries like China or even, I know the recent campaign let Cuba live that the people forum supported with PSL to bring solar panels and generators to Cuba. So just give us a sense of what this moment offers by way of potential for transitioning us away from oil to something more renewable like solar. Well, luckily, Cuba had already been thinking about how to become less

dependent on fossil fuel energy. And it's been thinking about it for many years, but I think the conditions of the blockade, meaning the lack of hard currency to be able to make that transition, which is, I think, the problem that that most durable countries face blockaded or not, sanctioned or not, which is, how do you transition

to renewable energy to a green economy if essentially you've been forced to surrender your hard currency essentially to either pay debts, international debts, to structural adjustment plans, by the IMF and the World Bank. Essentially, you've been deprived of the resources

to be able to make those major changes. But Cuba, I would say, in the last two, three years, has sort of made radical decision to, regardless of whether it has a resources or not, by sheer will, and with the support of key allies,

particularly China, to make this transition because it sees it as a question of its radical survival or not. And already by the beginning of the fuel blockade meaning by the beginning of January Cuba had installed enough

solar parks with a capacity to generate during the day at least a third of its energy needs which is a major leap for the country and this was done through I would say the level of Cuban resistance and creativity

that only they are capable of of because getting those solar panels to Cuba in itself was a major challenge. Sometimes folks don't realize that even in scenarios where China wants to help Cuba, China is also suffocated and limited by the weight of U.S. sanctions and the U.S. blockade. I know so many companies in China that want to trade with Cuba and don't because they have to weigh and balance their trade with Cuba and other sanctioned countries, with that of their trade with the United States. It's a major challenge for them as well.

But despite those difficulties and some of the crazy scenarios that they face, they've advanced and they've installed hundreds of solar parks and solar equipment that have been installed across the island. And since January, it's like they decided, like we need to go even harder and faster in the installation of this process. By the way, all being done by young people. I mean, again, the idea that all young Cuban people

are filled of apathy or a counter-revolutionary or have left the island is such a fallacy. On the contrary, they're the protagonists of these major transformations that are taking place in Cuba today. And they're really building up towards the point, at least the national objective, is to get to the point where they could produce, more than two-thirds of their energy needs without fuel,

meaning major transition to green energy to renewable energy. But the limitations remain. They have to do this in a world in which essentially the blockade becomes tighter. I mean, Trump's sanctions announcement from May 1st essentially will make that process much more difficult because they will essentially be targeting the few remaining European banks and banks from other countries that allow Cuba to make the transactions to purchase these supplies. They will make getting everything from the wires to the batteries to the inverters much more complex. And I think cognizant of this fact, many solidarity groups around the world, including us from the People's Forum,

but also working together with the PSL, with Code Pink, with dozens of other groups, Passes for Peace. in the country have kind of decided that we wanted to support this resistance and creativity of the Cuban people themselves and put the tools in their hands because we saw how the US was making it much more difficult and the response we've gotten

has been amazing. I mean I never imagined that we would raise, I think this is the first place where it's being said we've raised over $700,000 in resources for solar panels which have been purchased now and are making their way to Cuba. It's been

difficult. We weren't able to purchase that in the United States. We had to purchase into other countries. I think chippers for that has been incredibly difficult. I mean, we've had to face the real limitations of what the U.S. blockade means in terms of getting basic supplies

to Cuba. But it's all to support what the Cuban people are doing themselves. I mean, at this point, it's incredibly young. I mean, you've been engineers in their setting of these solar parks across the island and creating the capacity for Cuban hospitals, Cuban clinics, schools to try to run autonomously and get to the point where the country

is no longer dependent on fossil fuel, which is clearly one of the tactics of imperialism to destroy their independence. And we will link to the Let Cuba Live campaign in the show notes as well. So let's go into tourism. So tourism has been, well, there's also a complex history with tourism in Cuba, but the latest siege has really impacted the tourist industry and the economy around tourism. So in your understanding, and also as you've been to Cuba recently a few times, do you feel it's ethical or helpful to travel to Cuba right now? If so, how? And yeah, how can you respond to the ideas that even some airlines have suspended or reduced flight? and, you know, there's just been a lot of impact on tourism in general in the island. So what would be your read on the situation and what's an ethical and wise response? I feel like we could make a whole episode about the ethics of tourism. I mean, I personally don't believe that there's ethics in tourism in any real way. I mean, it's a purely extractive industry with such visceral and

violent forms of transactional relationships to the global self. But it's a reality that it's for many countries, including Cuba, it's a major source of currency of revenue. However, you know, I was thinking, you know, 10 years ago in 2016, Cuba was receiving like a record number of like 4 million tourists annually. It was like one of their biggest years yet. and there was clearly a high level of tourism coming from Europe and Canada, but in particular there was a huge increase of tourism coming from the United States.

It was something that had been unprecedented for so many people from the United States to see the reality of what life in Cuba was like with their own eyes. And to discover, I would say, in very clear terms, that one, Cuba is not their enemy, but also that Cuban society has a lot to offer from culture to medicine through the way it's organized. I think people began to see that, well, this Cuban socialist thing is actually,

this project is not so bad. And I think that generated the opposite effect of what the Obama administration had originally intended, which was that it would become a way essentially to move Cuba But the right, that it would create the grounds for counter-revolution in Cuba. Now those numbers have gone from 4 million, 10 years ago to, I think, less than 30,000 in 2026. That's a drastic change. And that's not a coincidence.

That is by design. The U.S. government has targeted heavily the ability of Cuba to sustain its tourism industry. And from the question of creating sort of the level of alert, you know, the sense of fear that Cuba is simply not a safe place to be in right now, which has been a major contributor to this chilling effect on tourism, who also just literally the fuel blockade, which has forced a lot of airlines, I think under pressure directly from the State Department, to cancel flights and to say, you know, we can't guarantee the sustainability of our operations. on the island, even though the Cubans are making, I would say, in order and amounts of incredible effort to guarantee that airlines still have jet fuel in these circumstances. That has had a horrible effect on the Cuban economy. Horrible effect. It's less the Cubans about a major source of hard currency needed for them to make necessary

purchases of food and medicine and other basic supplies abroad. Now, I encourage people to go not out of a sense of tourism. I encourage people to go because this is the time to be with the Cuban people and to see what this reality actually looks like. Go and fill your luggage with medical supplies, with whatever you can, and take it to Cuba. Stay with the Cuban people. And I would say, you know what? Stay at the hotels too.

There are a lot of folks complaining about a horrible, is it that some of the people of a convoy, Hassan Piker, staying at a hotel in Havana. So what? It brought some currency that allows the Cuban people to survive as a country. But more importantly, it's just important to be there right now. I think particularly for people from the United States, to be there physically is a sign of opposition to the cruelty of U.S. foreign policy. I mean, if I could, I would be in Cuba right now. I wish we could have tens of thousands of people from the United States there saying, you know, we refuse to surrender alongside the Cuban people.

That we want to be there with the Cuban people no matter what and against the war driver of the Trump administration. Yeah. And similarly, there's a lot of brigades and convoys that are traveling to Cuba so folks can travel with a group, right, and feel both guided but also find ways to contribute through those experiences. So shifting to the president of Cuba, who is not Raul Castro, as many people may think. Instead, it's Miguel Diaz Canal. What was the sentiment in terms of support for him and his government like when you were there? Are people standing with the government through all of this or just share the complexity of that for us right now? To me, the beautiful complexity of Cuba is that ordinary Cubans, for the most part, are highly critical of their

government. I mean, I don't know any Cuban that doesn't criticize their government. It's such an essential element of cultural and political life in Cuba to openly and heavily criticize the government. I mean, that's what Cubans are trained for, in a sense. Their high level of political education, but also academic education, has prepared them to, I think, lever and provide serious analysis of those. the world they're living in and also how their government's responding to things.

So I don't know any Cuban, you know, contrary to U.S. myths to how the U.S. sees this situation, I don't see anyone who isn't critical to the Cuban government. Yet that high level of criticism doesn't always mean, and for the most part doesn't mean a level of disengagement from the government, meaning that for many people, for millions of people in Cuba, they see it as their government and they see themselves as part of this governing experience. I mean, either because they're participating at the local level in decision-making structures or more realistically because they feel like this is, in the most patriotic sense, their government against the Trump administration. That is who the Trump administration is

clearly targeted. And I would say that in this moment, I probably, several things have united the Cuban people closer to the government thanks to Trump in ways that I had not seen in quite some time. And it was during the attack on Venezuela, the fact that 32 Cubans died fighting the U.S. military forces, that had a profound impact on the psyche of the Cuban people. I mean, I don't think it had been felt or seen in such a long time. How proud the Cuba's feel of having taken the sacrifice of defending another group of people, another country, defending their sovereignty. I mean, the funeral services, the memorial services in Havana were attended hundreds of thousands of people.

I would dare say millions of people waiting in line under the rain. every action called by the government since then, I think, has had overwhelming level of support. Because I think for many Cubans, again, not just the question of patriotism or seeing how the country is being threatened, but of also essentially seeing that the church administration is not a reasonable government. It's not a government that you could, on reasonable terms, come to an agreement. rather that it's an erratic, irrational, hyper-violent and militaristic government that is essentially trying to destroy the Cuban people. That creates a new line of division, which is no longer those who support the government and those who are against it. It's really a line between the Cuban people and the U.S. government.

So let's go upstream. And I'd love for you to share what is this. intensification on Cuba about, and particularly in connection with what's recently happened to Venezuela and the war in Iran. How do you see these patterns in terms of global geopolitical dynamics? What is this really about? I'm so glad you asked this because I think this is really the fundamental question because it's not that Cuba has like major natural resources. I mean, it has some that are of interest to the U.S. I mean, Cuba has nickel and some rare or of minerals that are of importance to the U.S.

But Cuba itself is not like a, it's not necessarily the prize that the U.S. wants in a traditional sense. It doesn't have the natural resources that let's say Venezuela or Iran have. But with the attack on Cuba, when you put in the context of the attacks on Venezuela and the attacks on Iran, I would say the prequel to this major conflict that the U.S. sees its greatest existential threat, which is the need to attack China, ultimately. The real war of the United States is not against Uba, Venezuela, Iran, the people of the world in general. It's really a war against China.

It's a war to try to contain and, in many ways, I would say, destroy the capacity of China to counter to be the alternative that it represents. for the development of the rest of the world. The U.S., which has become accustomed in the last 30-plus years since the fall of Soviet Union, to be the unipolar hegemonic force on the planet, capable like it is, of incredible capacities for destruction and violence, and it unleashes it on the world, essentially doesn't want to be questioned. And I think Trump basically reveals it often in his speeches, in his comments, that they just simply do not want to be challenged. They don't want anyone to question their dominance. And I think we cannot understand what's happening in Cuba today without looking at what the bigger game is.

And that all these countries, Venezuela, Iran, Cuba, present the first shot of this major. sort of comeback, as you could say in quotations, but really a new hyper-imperialistic drive, essentially to reinforce and reimpose the U.S. unipolar control over the planet, which does not need to just contain China, but it also needs to contain the idea or the force, the political movement of the rest of the countries of the global South to achieve full independence from the United States.

destroy Cuba is an essential political task within that larger agenda because Cuba in many ways represents consistently a defiance of U.S. hegemonic rule on the international stage. I mean, I've heard so many diplomats in private, of course, always say Cuba says the things that we all want to say but are always afraid to say. Cuba does what all of our countries are always afraid to do, which is say, in the kindness of words, fuck the U.S.

We don't care what the challenges or the sacrifices are that we have to make, but Cuba essentially puts its life on the line, its blood, it's the work of its people, essentially to try to push forward a different type of world. And it's the type of world where there are no longer sanctions where they're no longer blockades, where the U.S. doesn't have the capacity militarily, politically, economically to impose its will on the rest of the planet. And the vision for what the U.S. wants is clear, right? To be the unipolar power on the planet

and for Cuba, Venezuela, Iran to be subservient as well as China, right? To win this, we can call it a second Cold War. So that's what the U.S. wants. And there's what the U.S. wants. This is not just an existential threat to the U.S., right, but to the whole planet. I'm thinking of Abby Martin's phrase that the U.S. military is the world's greatest enemy in terms of climate emissions, but in terms of all of our lives. So tell us the alternative, right? Because all we're seeing is intensification and increasing sanctions and increasing of the blockade and just ramping up.

What could happen in the alternative, the vision of the more beautiful world we want to What is that alternative vision? How could this go well? I think we're already seeing signs of that because the most important element needed in our world today is the courage and the willingness to resist all of the awful violence that the U.S. unleashes into the world. We've seen that in Gaza, people who essentially almost have have nothing in their hands but yet refuse to give up in their quest for independence and sovereignty against the Zionist occupiers. We're seeing it in the people of Iran who have also united as a country to face this unprovoked war by the United States and in many ways have delivered level of defeat that the U.S. military have not seen in decades.

I would say probably since the Vietnam War, the U.S. has not suffered. The type of defeat is suffering in Iran right now. Where despite, again, the U.S. has this immense war chest and capacity to inflict damage. It can blow up as many children's schools. It can kill endless numbers of girls and boys. They can kill innocent people nonstop, but it hasn't had the capacity to create regime change in Iran. It has not forced the Iranian people to surrender.

And I think they're going to essentially make the same miscalculation with Cuba. And I think they would make the same miscalculation with China. That where they somehow expect submission, they will find resistance. That is, I think, the mood of many people. peoples around the global self. That is what changes in many ways the correlation of forces towards the movements of liberation on the planet. They call it the axis of resistance, but I prefer to call it the global movement towards liberation because that is what countries are Cuba, also Iran, China, and many others are essentially putting forward, which is that

saying yes or subjugating yourselves to the U.S. does not actually provide happiness, freedom, or life. The only way to attain those things is to fight. It's to fight for your sovereignty, to fight for your independence, to fight with all you might, even if it means incurring major sacrifices in the loss of life. But again, I think the people of Iran have demonstrated that the U.S. is not omnipotent, or undefeitable. So one thing I'm really sensing right now is that, you know, in times of crisis and in this case,

a manufactured crisis from U.S. imperialism, there's both the response of disaster capitalism and disaster collectivism, right, in any crisis. In this one, disaster capitalism, you know, Naomi Klein, the shock doctrine, is when a disaster crisis is exploited to push through privatization, deregulation, right? the opening of the Cuban economy to U.S. companies and U.S. intervention and also the regime change. And then disaster collectivism is the emergence of mutual aid, of solidarity of grassroots cooperation, of, you know, local agriculture, the turning towards one another to meet our needs and come together to survive and to thrive. So in your recent visits and in your understanding,

how do you see these two stories playing out? This, this trend. or this theme of disaster capitalism in Cuba and instead this idea of a disaster collectivism taking place. I mean, I think this is what separates Cuba from many countries around the world, which is that I do think, I mean, we're seeing right now, I mean, it's interesting how a few months into the fuel blockade that Cuba's been facing,

many more countries around the world are facing because of the consequences of the U.S. war on Iran, their own levels of fuel blockades, their own forms of fuel blockades, the reality of the high cost of fuel, making it harder for countries in the global South, particularly in Asia and Africa to attain. And that affects all aspects of life in those countries too. I think we're going to see a period of major political upheaval and unrest across the global South, because the response of those governments, from Kenya to the Philippines,

this sort of disaster capitalism. It's the sense that, well, we just have to guarantee the ability of the elites to reproduce themselves to continue to make enormous profits in a very parasitical way of the backs of working people and remove whatever remaining subtlides remain, particularly to the production of food and essentially raise the prices of everything alongside the prices of fuel. I think Cuba is just completely different because again, there was a revolution. There was a socialist revolution.

There was a revolution led by the people themselves to transform not just the political structures of the country, but also the economic structures of the country. Cuba does not have a system run by elites, contrary to what the U.S. Again, the U.S. State Department always say. In Cuba, the objective, of the economy is to provide

and fulfill the basic needs of the Cuban people to develop their ability to sustain themselves. Obviously, those objectives have always been impacted by the brutal onslaught of the U.S. blockade, but in many ways, they have accomplished these objectives over the years and become quite capable in moments of crisis like we're living now, like we're seeing now,

to essentially provide real concrete measures to try to not pass off this crisis to the poorest of the poor. On the contrary, for example, we've seen in Cuba how in the last few months there's been a major campaign, apart from the creation of solar parks, for example, which is because there's so many donations of solar panels coming from other countries, including China, apart from the ones that Cuba buys, Cuba has prioritized that not just for infrastructure projects, meaning not just for Cuban hospitals and clinics, but there's a program right. now, which is to install solar panels in the homes of the most remote sections of the country,

meaning there are families that live in the mountains, far from other families, far from hospitals, far from schools, far from places of work. And the government is installing solar panels in those homes so that they can have fully autonomous access to electricity. And what other country, other than a socialist country is that type of detailed priority given to working people. Even the fact that Cuba is able to heavily ration its fuel to meet the needs of the people is incredible. I had the incredible experience of meeting on the street one of several hundred drivers who have been given a special allotment of fuel essentially to guarantee that.

that patients who have to go to dialysis can still get to the hospital. I mean, if you have to get dialysis in Cuba, they can't skip your treatment. You still have to go to the hospital. They have to take you to the hospital physically to get that done. There's no running around it. There's no alternative to it. So the government is making this incredibly complex rationing system where they guarantee that you can get your dialysis treatment.

I find that incredible. I think it's a type of response that Cuba is, capable of. But also when it comes to food production, I actually went with a group of young people who volunteer in one of the local farms that in municipalities are basically being strengthened and being heavily supported to produce more food for their locality, meaning they're producing for the families that are in their 20, 30 mile radius. It's an incredible effort. I know a very few countries that would be able to do this. I mean, in a way, it's a stark contrast, but I think of what the Cubans are doing now

with the siege of Leningrad during World War II. How were the people of Leningrad be able to survive so many years of brutal Nazi onslaught? Siege warfare that was preventing food, medicine, basic supplies from getting in and then bombing them constantly. It was because of the existence of a communist party and because of the high-level organization. of the Soviet people. I would say the same applies to the Cuban people today. They have resisted.

They are overcoming. They are incredibly creative, not just because they're Cubans, but because they have socialist orientation towards development. They have this strong and imposing belief that there's no way out of the crisis for a few. The only way out of the crisis is for everybody to get through it. So to close, you and I have been having these conversations over the last few months around pre-revolutionary Cuba and the revolution and now Cuba under siege today.

So as you traveled through Cuba on your recent visits, what elements of our previous conversations did you notice? Did you see anything that we spoke about or at least the revolutionary spirit in what ways was that alive and well? And then finally, what are your calls to action? So we have folks listening from around the world, and we are eager for not letting the U.S. regime vision of the surrender of Cuba to happen. And instead, this other vision of international solidarity and the abolition of U.S. imperialism. So what are your concrete invitations actions for us today?

the thing that continues to impress me the most with every time I return to Cuba is that young people in Cuba who are truly I think the greatest protagonist of the revolution, meaning they are the ones on the front lines of the daily battles to sustain this political revolutionary project, that they dig deep in their history. I mean, these young people fighting in the year 2026 against the Trump administration's threats of war against the Trump administration's fuel blockade are referring to some of the few figures that we talked about. They're referring to Hathway. They're referring to Jose Mardi. They're referring to the Mambisas. They're referring to this whole arsenal of struggle which situates them not as like separate episode of their history. as the continuity of over 500 years' struggle basically between or facing the real contradiction, which is either to be a neo-colonial project of the United States or to be free.

It goes back to the question that Cuban revolutionaries have posed throughout time and time and time again, which is, do we return to the plantation? do we return to the slavery imposed by the United States or do we fight with everything we have, even if it means giving our lives for the project of freedom, which has become clear in the last 65 plus years that freedom for Cuba is only possible

through a socialist revolutionary project. My call to action right now is both in the short term and in the long term. In the short term, I think we need to see even more solidarity with Cuba. I mean, we've been fundraising to send solar panels to Cuban hospitals. We definitely need more money to keep sending more solar panels to Cuba. It would be important. I encourage people to travel to Cuba alongside the different brigades that are traveling to the island.

I encourage people to speak up about Cuba. I think we have to help defeat the psychological warfare being imposed on the Cuban people right now as well. Every time they say Cuba is next, we have to respond absolutely not. under no conditions. That is not the narrative. But I do think in the long term, there's a bigger question which has to be answered, which is,

for the sake of Cuba, for the sake of Iran, for the sake of Venezuela, for the sake of China, for the sake of humanity, for the sake of all the people on this planet, people in the United States in particular have this immense responsibility, which is to end the U.S. empire.

We cannot continue to believe that life on the planet has a future as long as the U.S. Empire continues to exist. It is the single greatest threat to humanity in the planet. And ending that empire is not a question of throwing slogans at it. It's not a question of being angry at it. It's not a question of making the right post online and being good politically on Twitter or Instagram. It's actually about becoming part of an organized effort to change reality.

And that's where I encourage people to take seriously, particularly in the United States, young people in the United States, the necessity of joining socialist organizations. I think without building a revolutionary force here inside the United States, we are basically saying we do not believe that the world can change and we're leaving the rest of the planet to its own fate. And that is irresponsible but also unacceptable. We have to accept our role, our tasks in history, which is, to change the United States from within. You're listening to an upstream conversation with Manolo Delos Santos and Liz Oliva Fernandez. We'll be right back with the second half of our episode.

It's a quack, that no dee de venas. From the menor, the Saoco, fresco, my loco, when the foebo-in'boc, pura calentura is what he provocco. Baya, faya, candle, the good. I goreys, in the berns, the marra,

the rain, the arena, soul that you're quen, your love and aligua, yeah, making an honor to my raise, leaving to my quay at where pice, like they say, that's on c'rancet

and so onus, if it's on bribes, That was Candela Wena by DeMay-Eiorena. Now, here's our conversation with Liz Oliva Fernandez. All right, Liz, welcome to Upstream. So good to meet you. So good to have you here. We start with our guests introducing themselves.

So would you mind introducing yourself in the work that you do? Of course. My name is Liz Alia Fernandez. I'm a Cuban journalist. I work for BLEOFTPS as you're a series. to 2020, believe the business and U.S. independent media on that based in the U.S. who aims the collaboration between journalists between Cuba and the United States. Perfect. Thank you for talking to me from Cuba. So excited to just know what's going on for you

and the people there. So let's just start with bring us up to date on what's happening with Trump's efforts to lay siege to Cuba. So what are the latest, what's the latest? What's the latest? in terms of actions and words coming out of the Trump administration? Well, the last thing is like they are just talking and they seems like they give in ultimatum to Cuba government to do certain things in order to avoid a naval blockade to Cuba the same that they did with Venezuela. The Cuban government on the other side has been talking about

this is a sensitive issue, so we are taking all the steps that is pertinent. But these talks for me are so violent in all the sense because it's like you have to be on talks or in dialogue with your bully, with your abuser. So I don't know, like some people are optimistic about this, some don't. But in my case it's like I feel that the whole thing is really violent. and produce me a lot of emotions because it's wrong. It's wrong. Why the United States has to dictate the steps that Cuba has to take in order that don't do a naval blockade to Cuba

because the United States is so this is crazy. And what kind of war we are leaving that, like the international law is allowing the United States do whatever they want. And no one is doing nothing. It's like we are talking, one of the most powerful countries in the war against a small island in the Caribbean. This is crazy.

I really hear you. I hear you on how violent it is and how unfair due to the power dynamics. And, yeah, your analogy of having to negotiate with your bully. It really rings true. And so let's go into the oil blockade that's been ongoing. How has that been impacting people in the practical sense, in the day-to-day sense? What's the reality? there. It's everything. It's like, we are used to have blackouts. It's not the first time that we

have black house. Also, when people talk about oil blockade, they think January 26th, but the oil blockade is coming from home side. I remember, for example, in 2019, that the Cuban president called something like, this is a specific moment that we are going through when the United States US President Donald Trump in his first term started to sanction chips like oil tankers that were coming to Cuba. And they sanctioned it and in some way prohibit them to go to the United States or to do trade with other countries. And that was like the last episode of this, well, the last is January 26th, but in my head, like being a grown woman, this is the first of the last episode of this oil blockade against Cuba so we are having blackouts like my entire life I know how to deal with a blackout

but this is the first time that we have blackout so long and it's so lonely in a period of time it's not just during the day that it can be 12 18 hours it's just like the amount of time that we have been living in that kind of conditions because like Well, we have this Russian tanker that came with the humanitarian oil help, but it's just nothing. Okay, the situation with electricity is better since the last Friday. But this is nothing. This doesn't represent nothing. I think like whatever country should have the rights to buy oil to whatever is open to send us oil.

and that has been cut like Cuba since January since December so sorry Cuba wasn't able to buy oil from Mexico or Venezuela or any other country Jamaica for example

because people and countries are afraid of the United States tariff and the United States threats that's the other thing the United States is not suggesting it's better to do business with other countries that Cuba or whatever he's saying.

Like, if you are doing business, if you are selling, sending oil to Cuba, you're going to face the United States sanctions. You're going to face new tariff. And then most of the countries in the hemispheres depends in so many ways of the United States economy, the US dollars, in so many ways. That's why, for example, the medical missions,

the Cuba medical missions around the Caribbean and also in Latin America has been impacted by this, because it's a threat. directly threat. So I was talking that is violent because how can you talk to someone who is threatening you to do whatever he say that you have to do? And not only you is threatening the people and the countries around you. So even if you want to help Cuba, even if you want to send sell oil to Cuba, you don't want to put your own population because you don't want to be Cuba. I want to say, you don't want to be Cuba, but then it's just like people know what it means being on their sanctions.

They know. That's why they bowled against every October in the United Nations because they know the damage that they can do. Because when we talk about the sanctions or the political position between the United States and Cuba, This is not like a bilateral thing. This is unilateral coercitive measures. From one of the most powerful countries in the world, it is small island. This is collective punishment. This is people suffering.

This is people have to cook with charcoal or wood, whatever they can find. This is people really are affected like psychologically because they are tired because it's hot, because they need a fan, because they have a long day working, they just need to rest. because people can't cook like it properly so they don't want a lot of work just hid some food oh because people are worried because they have people sick in a bed so they have food in the refrigerator that can be wasted because a black house are longing to much so they have to live day by day but it's also complicated because sometimes you don't have the money to live day by day it needs to

organize your economy because the crisis is affecting everything. The first thing is affecting is tourism. And then the rest of the everything. We are talking about a country that used to produce more than 60% of the medications that we consume inside of Cuba with our own formulation and everything. And now you can find nothing.

Because Cuba can access to raw materials, because Cuban can access to credit. So this interest has been in place. forever because the decision was placed when my mom was born when I was born to I was born the dissentions if I have a child next year it's gonna or this year or even in five years it's gonna born under the dissentions probably so we are talking about generations after generation that have missed to face these brutal conditions but the sanctions has not always been the same depends on

the government depends on the moment, is going to be more flexible or more strict. And the case with this president, if we can call Donald Trump like that, deserve, is just that he has been a strong decision so much that it has been impossible for Cuba to survive under that conditions. And you can say it.

The infant mortality in Cuba, In 2018, it was four per 1,000 babies. And now in 2006, it's almost 10. That's crazy. That's in a period less of 10 years. And for me, that's the most evident part because some people say, how do you know that it's essential? It's because the government is inefficient because Cuba's a FFL's day,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I say because the government was the same in 2012, 19 and now. And it was the same when I was born, too. It was in 1993. And we have not just like infant mortality. It was also like expectancy of life. We have this data. Cuba could compare with whatever country from the Western.

We are not the same from the global South. We are not the same. than other countries with similar population economy that us in the Caribbean and in the global south. We have that kind of things. We are a country that are able to produce vaccines against COVID-19 really fast. We are a country that is able to produce medication against lung cancer, against Alzheimer, and it works. So you can't compare Cuba. And it was the same government.

It was the same process. It was the same revolution. The only thing that is different now that it wasn't before is the sanctions. And the way that implemented the sanctions. Yeah, I really hear you on how it is violence. And just to continue with what you were just saying about how Cuba has different stats than other countries, it really is due to, you know, socialism, communism, the revolution. And so it's like, even though there's been this overwhelming,

experience of counter-revolution throughout the entire time of Castro and the government, the Cuban government now, it's still produced so much good for people. And so along with that has been this underlying siege throughout. And I really hear you on the day-to-day experience and how it's exhausting and makes life and planning so difficult. So tell us more about the response of the Cuban people to all of this. You talked about the exhaustion and the difficulty of the day to day. So what are the ways that people are responding, taking care of each other, and just facing all of this? I think that the main thing that I will say is like, not all people respond the same. Like, there are people who actually blame the Cuban government of all these

issues. They actually believe that it's not, essentially that nothing to do with this. It's just the Cuban government that is incompetent, but there's still people who believe the government who recognize the sanctions and recognize the importance of essentials have on this. But I think the same that is common here is like the sense of the people that we need to take care of each other. We need to try to go through this all together. And I think that this is really characteristic from Cuba. And maybe is because the process that we have in the 50, the revolution. Because I think like the feeling of we are on this all together

is essential to survive so long to this. Because for circumstances, people have been already killed himself. Like, there is no way. Like, if everything is a scarcity and everything is difficult, you need to, I think that's my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think like with the mentality of, individuals, like do all the things that matters, that in other countries, maybe in other

countries, people should kill each other. For example, in the United States, people should kill each other, so immediately. Like, one less, more toilet paper for me. And I think, like, here is different because you can find ways where people actually try to create way not just to be well then, but try to make sure that other people are well. For example, we have an interview with Natalia. Natalia is an old lady. She's around 60s, years old, late 60s.

She has a project in a vulnerable black neighborhood here in Kavana, that she called Bida. Natalia, she takes care of the kids. She gave them classes to define, like, to do like a sad, assignments after school and also the kids cheer and teach all those things that they know about nod or whatever and it's a really lovely project because it's like everything is is collaborating everything is contributing to the education of the collectivity that's one part and the other part is like there is a group of more than 100 women they are trying to produce their own food in their backyard

because this is not inside of the city. This is outside of the city. So people in their houses have space. So she's incentivated women to grow food. But there are no growing food for their own. They are growing food for them and also for the neighbors. So they have a schedule on the kind of systems where they grow food in a way that they share it.

And that's not all. They say, okay, we are close to a family. hospital more or less close to a hospital so let's go all together to try to create a space next to the hospital to grow food for the people who is internal the hospital in order that the kitchen of the hospital have access to fresh products for free so that's the kind of the following i'm talking about like people are not just thinking about them to how we can survive to this. It's like how we can all survive to this. And Natalia's not, it's not, it's not this section. I would say that she's the rule. There are more Natalias, they're just in Havana,

but around the country. And I think that that's the most valuable thing. Because when people talk about, because Cuba has resisted so long, people have resisted so long. And people have been able to do that because they care of each other. They try to take care of each other because in other way, it's not possible to survive or not to, on their so difficult conditions. Thank you for that story and that response. I really heard that, that collective response to crisis. Now, let's go into energy.

So this is really revealing, you know, oil and the necessity of oil to run an economy. And yet I know that, you know, just like you said, Cuba has people power and it has, you know, trying to grow food for oneself and for one's community. So let's talk about the sense of what kinds of energy Cuba can generate itself and the dynamics around crude oil and Cuba's refining capacity versus the implementation of solar. I know there's been people who've been donating solar panels and things like that and possibly with the help from China to have more solar. So tell us about the energy situation in what's going on right now. Well, the first thing is like a cube is able to produce some energy.

It's not enough to maintain the whole country running, but it's some. And also the quality of the oil that we have is not so good, but he can work in order to make the grid system don't collapse, to say it in a way. On the other hand, like Cuba in the last couple of years has been working hard in incrementing the capacity of Cuba with solar energy, renewable energy. And we're doing this through solar. So in 2014, between 2024, 2005, he was able to install 1,000 megawatts, the solar energy. that's not enough yet, but it was, for me, it was epic because in just one year in the middle of the crisis, he was able to produce and install the same amount of solar energy that was trying to produce an install in 10 years. So he did that four times. In 10 years,

we have like 250 to 60 megawatts in 10 years. from 2014 to 2004. And then in one year, we multiply that capacity for four. That's huge. And we did it in the middle of the crisis. But that's not enough because, first, that's an important thing, because, for example, a numb in a sunny, really sunny and hot day, this capacity is able to reach the 10% of the 10% of the, the energy that we need to generate.

That's something. But this is unknown. So this is the more the part of the sunny day that is more sunny. Let's say in a way. But this is not enough because what are you doing a night? So it's not just producing solar energy. You have to create capacity for storage energy. And that's also cost money and that needs investment.

and that's money that Q I don't have right now. So there is a group of people that are working hard in trying to create that capacity because also you need not just to read the knives to like the way that it works is like you need to produce the same amount of energy that people require from their homes and not always is the same.

Maybe you have a sunny day but people are not working or whatever. They are not getting as much as you are producing. And if there is not a balance, the entire grip system collapse. So you need to find a way to regulate that. Because with fuel, it's easy. You just burn fuel. They need more energy, you need to burn more fuel.

So when you don't have that, and the people are not needing so much energy, just go down the flame, like turn down the flames. That's the way it works. That's the way that you maintain the balance between what people need and where you are able to offer them. But with the solar, you can't do that. It's not so easy. So you can say the sun, okay, let's turn down a little bit now. No, that's not.

So you need to find a system in a way that you can in some ways maintain the balance and create energy when people are demanding more and dismin away them when people are demanded less and that's technology and that's required is funny that's the hard part I think like that's the the part where people in Cuba are working on it because that's the most difficult part is not just the storage for the days or the moments that you don't have so many sun so many light three today but also the way that you can play it in some way with this and that's the most difficult part. Cuba has been trying to transition to renewable energies from more than 10 years now, but it's difficult. Like, which other country from the global south do you know that it's trying to transition from fuel to renewable energy? This is technologies and way of life

who just the Western Hemisphere has been implemented in some way, like Europe, in some countries, not because they have they need to, it's because they have this feeling of clean energy, environment, and everything, not? Because the footprint of Cuba is

nothing compared with the United States of the country from the Western. So, it's difficult, but we are working on it. I don't think that we are going to do it tomorrow, but at least for me is a hope that there are smart

people that are thinking about that, they are working so hard to trying to create that capacity and also to try to create that opportunity that hope because after you create that you need them to transform me the way that people think and the way that people live. Because if you have renewable energy where you are charging your motorbike that is electric at 9, you don't have zero emissions vehicles because you are charging with fuel. So it's just also the step that is coming after all of this is trying to transform it and change the way that people live and acting. So it's a mindset that have to be different. And that's another step on the top of everyone.

I hear that. And so what is the sentiment in terms of support for the Diaz Canal government? Are people standing with the government throughout all of this? And you mentioned the negotiations. and just what does that look like right now? It's mixed. I can tell you how many people support that, and how people are torn.

I just want to say that I was being surprised for the level of mobilization that the government has been able to do in the last couple of months. Because when you are on social media, that is a bubble, of course. You say, oh, my God, no one wants the human government. But then you go to a march or a demonstration and you see thousands of people there

really convinced that they're believing and supporting the human revolution and super they go. It's like, oh wow, wait, it's not the way that social media portrays us. So it's mixed. I think you can find everything. I think also that generations have a love to do with this because there are iterations that have the experience the before and after the revolution, they have a better sense of what is coming. And I think the kind of things like public access to education and health care

and have your own house because most of the people in Cuba own their home houses, that's what kind of conquered for my grandma, for my mom. But for me, it's a right. It's different from my generation because since I was born, It was the way it was. I own houses. Well, me, my family owner of house, but it's ours. We don't have to pay for it.

We have access to good quality, health care, and education. And that's the way it should be. Why not? But for my grandma, specifically, that was a conquer because she wasn't able to do nothing of this thing before. She started to work when she was nine. And then she has a daughter that is a soldier And she never have to work before

They should have to work So it's different Like she couldn't finish the high school But she has a daughter that is a soldier And another granddaughter that is a journalist That's a dream So I think like depends of the generation Depends also the critical thinking

Because I have to say That's another thing that I was proud about Cubans. We have a lot of critical thinking. I think that we're having lost critical thinking with social media, a social media's culture, and the United States propaganda. That is really good. So it depends, depends of different factors. But for sure, there's still a lot of people who support the government

who wants to the government's state in place. They want changes. And Cuba's changing. And it's changing for us. And now all the time I'm sure that we are changing for the best, but we're changing for sure. In our ongoing series on Iran, we've been exploring how the war on Iran can be understood

in a few respects as part of a war on China and part of a possibly growing Second World War or Second Cold War that the United States is attempting to initiate in response to shifts in global dynamics. So can you talk about why you think that the U.S. is going after Cuba and how it connects with Venezuela and Iran? And just in general, what is the intensification about right now? What is driving it? I don't think that we can put together the same reasons for every country.

I think like every country have different reasons why the United States is there. And then most of the time it's just access to resources and money. Economic reasons, strategic reasons. In Cuba, you can say, well, strategic reasons because of position, the geographical position, but I think that beyond that, like, Cuba, for the United States, represent the danger of the good example. If a small country in the global South as Cuba has been able to achieve so many things, you just, you just, you just, you just, you just, you. just demonstrate the people that what is possible, like, how is possible that Cuba has public, uh, quality access to health care and you don't have access to that in the United States. It's just private. If Cuba's able to create their own vaccines and to create their own

medications and to like eradicate the alphabetism in their population, how is it possible that you can't do it? Why you are not doing that? If you are not doing that, if you have, you have access to more money and resources. And also, it's the tenure of the good example for the global south. Because if we were able to do it, you also can't do it. You don't depend of X, Y, C that sends you's money or help you with funds or whatever. Because we are able to do that in the middle of the longest sanctions in modern history. So how much we are being able to do without sanctions?

I'm curious about that, but I'm not sure that does a lot. So to close, talk to us about what is needed right now and what people can do at both the micro level but also the macro level. What is needed and how can folks respond with solidarity and support? Okay, we need so many things that we can talk about the things that human need. But I think that most urgent thing is like support, visibility and education about Cuba. And also, we can do nothing here

because we don't vote in the U.S. We don't have any agency in the U.S. government or U.S. representative. But people in the United States, they have those. So I think, like, there is time that you maybe have the privilege to don't say nothing, but this is not the time. You need to take positions. You need to do something in order to help.

Whatever is in your help. Call your representatives, send an email, ask about their positions about Cuba. Because we need to be in the map because we are too small. No one's going to take the risk for us. So we need people to talk about this. But not just talk between them. I think we need to like do it. And we need to shoot the perspective.

Like we don't have to be the perfect vector. Cuba doesn't have to have. to be perfect order to support them. We are a country. We made mistakes. We try to fix it. But that doesn't make the right to the United States to decide what we need to do or what won't. That doesn't make any sense because no one is saying in the United States, what should do better? Or, and this is from my partner that he has a really, he's a really smart guy. and he said like if the people are thinking about like Cuba deserve this because human rights violations of whatever just think about the amount of sanctions that the United States should have in order than the all human rights violation that has been committed in the history of the United States

so that's why we don't need to be a perfect victim we just need to be us and the United States have to understand that the best thing that they can offer to us is let us alone. If we have collaboration, great. We are open to do that. We are open to have dialogues with the United States. Even when it's violent. But we have the right to survive. No, we have the rights to believe.

We are tired of surviving. You've been listening to an upstream conversation with Liz Oliva Fernandez and Manolo De Los Santos. Liz Oliva Fernandez is a Havana-based journalist with Belly of the Beast and the presenter of the War on Cuba. Manolo Delos Santos is a founder of People's Forum and a researcher at Tri-Continental Institute for Social Research. He's the co-editor of Bibi Ramos, Venezuela v. Hybrid War, Comrade of the Revolution, Selected Speaches of Fidel Castro, and Our Own Path to Socialism, Selected Speaches of Hugo Chavez. Please check the show notes for links to any of the resources mentioned in this episode.

Thank you to Daimé Erosena for the Intermission Music. The cover art for today's episode is from a 1975 Cuban Film Festival poster titled A Trip to the Moon. Upstream theme music was composed by me, Robbie. Upstream is entirely listener-funded. No ads, no promotions, no grants, just Patreon subscriptions and listener donations. we couldn't keep this project going without your support. Subscribe to our Patreon for bi-weekly bonus episodes, access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes,

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