Upstream - From the Frontlines: Organizing Against Amazon w/ Chris Smalls and Mars Verrone

Episode Date: May 6, 2025

Chris Smalls had no idea the direction his life would take when he was discharged in 2020 for organizing a walk out in protest against Amazon’s safety protocols during the early stages of the COVID-19 pandemic. He had no idea he was about to embark on one of the most challenging David and Goliath unionization efforts of our century.  In this episode, we speak with Chris Smalls, the founder and a former president of the Amazon Labor Union, or ALU, as well as Mars Verrone, a filmmaker, musician, and educator from Los Angeles who recently produced the documentary film, Union, following Chris and the other organizers in their fight for better working conditions at Amazon. We hear the origin story of the Amazon Labor Union, learn about the internal and external challenges faced by Amazon labor organizers, and explore a broader view of the union movement and its crucial role in advocating for systemic change. Chris and Mars also talk about the importance of unions in today’s political landscape—especially under the Trump Administration—and the significance of this year's May Day and its resonance for workers around the world fighting for justice, dignity, and a post-capitalist future.  This episode was sponsored by EcoGather, an experimental educational project focused on heterodox economics, collective action, and belonging in an enlivened world. As EcoGather's active phase comes to a close its self-paced online courses are being made freely available at www.ecogather.ing and its vibrant community is reconvening in a new organization called otherWise. Find out more at www.otherwise.one. Further Resources Union: A Documentary Film Request a Screening  Follow Union on social media @unionthefilm Amazon Labor Union Donate to Amazon Labor Union Congress of Essential Workers DegrowNYC Film Workers for Palestine Related Episodes: International Workers' Day w/ John from Working Class History Technofeudalism w/ Yanis Varoufakis Prefigurative Politics and Workplace Democracy w/ Saio Gradin and Nicole Wires Our ongoing From the Frontline series International Workers' Day w/ John from Working Class History Intermission music: "You Are Not a Number" Original score for Union by Robert Aiki and Aubrey Lowe Upstream is a labor of love—we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at  upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

This episode of Upstream is sponsored by EcoGather, an experimental educational project focused on heterodox economics, collective action, and belonging in an enlivened world. As EcoGather's active phase comes to a close, its self-paced online courses are being made freely available at ecogather.ing, and its vibrant community is reconvening in a new organization called Otherwise. Amazon spends millions of dollars on union-busting efforts, anywhere between 10 to 20 million in the fiscal year, what's was spent on us and also in previous election campaigns especially Alabama they spent about 25 million to stop that black worker led effort as well and you know externally Amazon of course they used the police the NYPD was their best friend during their campaign the film shows y'all me and some of the organizers being arrested once but actually they probably called the police on us over 30 times throughout the year not only the police but they used the fire department they showed up on us a

few times the landowners the fire department we're battling the Union Busters every day we heard it all and seen it all. You are listening to Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. A show about political economy and society that invites you to unlearn everything you thought you knew about the world around you. I'm Robert Raymond and I'm Della Duncan. Chris Smalls had no idea the direction his life would take when he was discharged in 2020 for organizing a walkout in protest against Amazon's safety protocols during the early stages of the COVID-19 pandemic. He had no idea he was about to embark on one of the most challenging David and Goliath

unionization efforts of our century. In this episode, we speak with Chris Smalls, the founder and former president of the Amazon Labor Union, or ALU, as well as Marz Varone, a filmmaker, musician, and educator from Los Angeles who recently produced the documentary film, Union, following Chris and other organizers in their fight for better working conditions at Amazon. We hear the origin story of the Amazon labor union, learn about the internal and external challenges faced by Amazon labor organizers, and explore a broader view of the union movement and its crucial role in advocating for systemic change. Chris and Marz also talk about the importance of unions in today's political landscape,

especially under the Trump administration, and the significance of this year's May Day and its resonance for workers around the world fighting for justice, dignity, and a post-capitalist future. And before we get started, Upstream is almost entirely listener-funded. We could not keep this project going without your support. There are a number of ways in which you can support us financially. You can sign up to be a Patreon subscriber, which will give you access to bi-weekly episodes ranging from conversations to readings and more.

Signing up for Patreon is a great way to make Upstream a weekly show, and it will also give you access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, along with stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Sign up and find out more at patreon.com forward slash Upstream podcast.

And if Patreon's not really your thing, you can also make a tax-deductible recurring or one-time donation on our website upstreampodcast.org forward slash support. Through your support, you'll be helping us keep Upstream sustainable and helping to keep this whole project going. Socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund, so thank you in advance for the crucial support. And now, here's Della in conversation with Chris Smalls and Marz Varela. All right, Chris, Mars, welcome. So happy to have you with us.

And this is also exciting that we're having this conversation for May Day. This is really an important conversation to have for this particular time. So let's start with introductions. Chris, maybe we'll start with you. Can you introduce yourself and also share what does May Day mean to you? Why have this conversation on this day? Sure, absolutely. Thank you for having me. My name is Chris Smalls. I'm the founder of Amazon Labor Union and also the founder of the Congress of essential workers. I was an Amazon worker for five years, an assistant manager, process assistant for four and a half years. I opened up three buildings at Amazon, got hired in 2015 and I was terminated

in 2020 over COVID-19, which was the catalyst to our organizing efforts for the Amazon Labor Union. Yeah, May Day, which I like to really call it International Workers Day, that's a day of remembrance of our history of labor, but also an opportunity for the working class to come together and either join the action, put together actions, join together in solidarity to uplift our voices and once again to hold our oppressors and hold the powers that may be, whether it's the government, whether it's your employer, whether it's your boss, hold them accountable on that day as well. But that day is definitely, um, it's filled with solidarity. It's filled with joy. That's definitely going to be filled. The streets are going to be

filled in America this year for sure with the Trump administration. And, um, yeah, I'm just happy to be a vessel and a part of the working class struggle worldwide. Absolutely. thank you. And Mars, what about you? Would you introduce yourself and share what May Day means to you? Sure, and thanks so much for having me.

I'm just really excited to talk with you and Chris. So my name is Mars Varone. I developed and produced Union. Just a little background on me. I'm a filmmaker, a musician, and an arts educator. I also organize with a couple of different groups, including D-Gro NYC, which is an eco-socialist organization based in New York,

as well as Film Workers for Palestine, which is like a global network of people in the film industry who are organizing towards a free Palestine. Also relevant to this, I wanted to mention that I was raised in a union household, and so both of my parents are television screenwriters and are in the WGA. My father actually used to was witnessing kind of the power and the struggles of labor organizing, and also context in which, you know, my parents

and my family had a real reverence for storytelling and for media making. And so kind of the combination of those influences led me to political cinema and wanting to make documentaries. So yeah, and so as far as what May Day means to me, kind of similar to Chris, it's really a celebration of the power of workers across the world. And I think it's also a reminder to not take for granted some of the rights that we have today, and that seems so basic to us today. I think the holiday right has its roots in the Haymarket affair in Chicago,

which was a strike for the eight-hour workday that actually led to extreme police violence and many people being killed. And I think sometimes when people think of the labor movement, it seems sort of boring. People just think of rallies or like contract negotiations and things like that. And we forget that it has this really, you know, like a really violent and intense history. And I think it's important to remember that we come from that and just like how high the stakes are and what this fight really means, you know. So yeah, so I think May Day

is a really important reminder of that history, but also a source of inspiration, like Chris was saying, for building solidarity for the future of the movement. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for that, that history and weaving in your introductions and also your upbringing, Mars. And I wanted to ask you, Chris, about this. How and what did you learn about unions growing up?

Yeah, I mean, this question is, unfortunately, it's a short answer. I didn't. I was raised in a single parent home, single black woman, my mom. And even though she was a part of a union, she was a part of 1199, she works at Mount Sinai in New York for over 25 years. She was at one point a

union member and an advocate for the union. But we didn't have these conversations. At the time, I really was just trying to figure out myself as a young adult. And yeah, I was a independent rapper. I was a triathlete in high school and I'm my mom's oldest son. So I was very rebellious. So I really didn't listen too much to any adult at the time. Growing up, it was really much of my friends and I could say people that was in my neighborhood that really influenced me a lot. And unfortunately, the conversations of union didn't come up in my household and also at school as well, which is something that I really learned

in my journey currently, that I'm being invited to elementary schools for career day, that I'm being invited to universities and Ivy League schools all over the country, all over the world to share my experience with Amazon labor union. And I applaud the teachers now for bringing in union leaders like myself and others into the classrooms because that's what was needed at my time.

Growing up, I wish on career day day instead of bringing in police officers and firefighters that they had some union representation there, but unfortunately they didn't. So for me, I'm still learning. I take this journey as a learning experience every day and I try to do as much charity work as I can, visiting as many schools as I can a year, especially this last month, or Black History Month, I was all over New York City, elementary schools, middle schools, and also colleges as well. I am so happy to hear you're in schools. That's awesome and definitely a change. And so considering that your upbringing, not being too familiar with

unions and not hearing about it in schools, you said in your intro that you worked for Amazon and then in the pandemic, that's kind of what inspired you to lead and start this unionizing effort. So tell us about that. It was almost exactly four years ago. What was it that inspired you or galvanized you to say, we need to unionize? Yeah, actually, it's five years now. Time is flying. Five-year anniversary was this past March 30th, the day I was fired. My experience at Amazon, prior to the pandemic, I used to tell my new hires, if you have a gym membership, you might want to cancel it because you're going to be doing 10 to 12 hours of calisthenics. You're on your feet all day and you're surveilled.

The moment you clock in to the moment you clock out, you're under Amazon's productivity machine. People didn't last. I've seen good workers, young workers, strong workers. It didn't matter. Over time, the building, the machinery, the repetitive motion that has a way of breaking people down and getting rid of them.

So people were getting hired and fired every day, every week. The turnover rate at Amazon is particularly our building JFK, it's 150% a year, almost two to 3% a week. And the pandemic was just really the icing on the cake for me when it came to the disregard for our safety. I tried to do the proper thing and go through HR. And unfortunately, when I was met with, you know, them quarantining me out of thousands

of workers that I was speaking up for, I knew that they were trying to silence my efforts for telling the truth. And I didn't stop there. I let a walkout exactly five years ago, March 30th, and it led to my firing two hours after that protest. And I think today I'm still the only worker that was ever fired by a phone call. I think back on that day, I received a phone call from the assistant general manager of the building that terminated me over the phone pretty much. That doesn't happen to Amazon workers. Usually you get an email or you get a text to your A to Z app, your Amazon app, and they tell you that you are no longer employed and you had to appeal. I didn't get those opportunities, but what also motivated me to continue my work was the fact that Jeff Bezos, who was the richest man in the world at the time, making $13 billion a day, $9 million an hour, almost $5,000 a second. $5,000 a second. He signed off on a smear campaign, ironically saying to make me your face in the whole unionizing efforts. So that motivated me to continue the advocacy of not just COVID-19, but just workers in general and also the effort to unionize. It followed

that as well. Wow. Thank you for that. And then Mars, you felt inspired to join this team and produce this film, Union, and it does tell just a part of the story, right? It's a long story. So Mars, tell us which part of the unionizing efforts the film tells and why. Sure, and I can also give, yeah, maybe some context

just like on the origins of the film. So like Chris said, when he and the other TCOAW organizers led this walkout March of 2020, I remember when that happened, it was in the news and I found it so incredibly inspiring. Like, you know, we all remember the start of the pandemic was so disturbing. It was so no one knew what was going on. And to see this act of bravery, yeah, it was just so incredible. And again, it was sort of at this time where like a lot of the ways in which people

were celebrating essential workers was like banging pots and pans. Like it was just kind of ridiculous. And so to actually see workers on the front line take this risk and just to see what Chris did was so incredible. And then, yeah, a few days later, the leaked memo, the smear campaign,

it was just so, again, disturbing, but not really surprising to like transparently see this is what this company feels about its black workers, this is what this company feels about workers who speak out, who are pro-labor. So yeah, so all of this was really inspirational to myself and the other filmmakers behind Union. And it also just felt important because it felt like there was this real shift in consciousness at the time in which a lot of people were maybe for the first time relating very differently

to their workplace, to the government. They were sort of seeing like, oh, actually, these things don't have our back. We're kind of out for ourselves right now. And so it felt important to make something that kind of spoke to that moment, that spoke to the creation of the category of essential work.

So yeah, so myself and the other producer of the film, Samantha Curley, we really wanted to make a film about labor, like kind of in the context of the pandemic. And so we reached out to Chris, this was like the summer of 2020. And we actually, we first met in LA, Chris was doing these different protests at Bezos's mansions, where him and the other TCOW organizers would bring like, guillotines and like this big Jeff Bezos puppet. And so met there which is really cool and we just spent a long time getting to know each other and kind of like establishing trust as organizers and

people who had similar political values. So at a certain point right the goal became we actually want to unionize JFK8, the warehouse that Chris was fired from and at that point our team was lucky enough to have raised a little bit of funding where we could actually start shooting. So we started filming in spring of 2021. And what's so unique about that is a lot, clearly at that time, we had no idea that the ALU would win their campaign,

that it would become such a historic event. We were just there from day one, right? And I think, you know, a lot of documentaries that are about a historic or significant event, they arrive after the event has already happened. And so, you know, you have people doing interviews kind of like reflecting back in time, you're using news footage or archival footage. I think what makes a union really special is because we're there from day one, you see this like longitudinal vision of the entire campaign, which was basically a full year,

and you're seeing the action in the moment of the organizing of actually what it took. You're not just having people reflect back and tell you what it was like, you're seeing what it was like. And so I think that's really special and really useful specifically in the fight to unionize Amazon, but also for organizers everywhere, because really the film is about like the nitty gritties and intricacies of grassroots organizing.

And I think there's like a central contradiction in the film about the necessity of collective organizing and also how challenging it is, also how big the obstacles are, how high the stakes are, and yet still we have to collectively organize. So, yeah, so the film, the aspect of the organizing you see is the entire JFK campaign in which they end up winning and making history. And I'll also add not to, like, spoil the ending of the film,

but we actually don't end it at the victory. We show a little bit of what happened afterwards. And kind of the reason that we chose not to end with the victory is we wanted to avoid like a false, you know, fairy tale happy ending because it's really important to show how the fight continues and the ways in which even after the ALU won,

they were still experiencing immense challenges that they're experiencing to this day. Like Amazon still has not come to the bargaining table. The fight goes on and so we didn't wanna make it seem like it was this closed effort where they won and that's it. Again, we wanted to show the contradiction of, it was this incredible victory and yet the challenges continue. Yeah, absolutely. I really found the film to be very, like a very honest and vulnerable

portrayal and like you said, getting into the nitty gritty and really exploring the challenges both internally and externally. So let's explore those not only for the story of the Amazon labor union, but as you said, Mars, it relates to unionizing efforts all around the world. These are similar themes. So Chris, let's start with the external challenges. What external challenges did you face in this effort from Amazon, from the public, from the media, or from any other external challenges? Wow. Yeah. I mean, that's too many to remember, but I can give you the most important ones. Number one, externally, Amazon spends millions of dollars in union-busting efforts, anywhere between 10 to 20 million in the fiscal year, what's spent on us. And also in previous election

campaigns, especially Alabama, they spent about 25 million to stop that black worker led effort as well. And, you know, externally, Amazon, of course, they used the police. The NYPD was their best friend during their campaign. The film shows y'all, me and some of the organizers being arrested once, but actually they probably called the police on us over 30 times throughout the year. Not only. But actually, they probably called the police on us

over 30 times throughout the year. Not only the police, but they used the fire department. They showed up on us a few times. The land owners, the people who actually owned the land, because Amazon doesn't own these buildings, they lease them. So we were battling the land owners. We were battling the NYPD, the fire department, we're battling the union busters every day.

Amazon was playing Russian roulette with them. They were flying them in and out every week, trying to see which ones exceed in creating fear and doubt. And if they didn't, they got them out of there and they brought somebody new in. And they made sure they brought in union busters for every demographic in the building whether you were Hispanic whether you were Arabic Whether you're a black Latino didn't matter they tried to Divide workers racially using a lot of racist rhetoric of course about myself Calling me a thug calling me a gangster

Obviously using money and union dues against us saying that we're going to take all the dues, they're going to make me a millionaire. We heard it all and seen it all. And the real threat was the surveillance. I'm pretty sure they followed me and other organizers, even outside of the Amazon premises. I'm pretty sure that they surveilled us every day out there while we were out in front of the building. There was a camera that was set up with audio and video that just popped up out of nowhere that they claimed they didn't have access to. But we found out later in the campaign that they had access to that camera the entire time. And yeah, the scrutiny of big labor unfortunately didn't believe in us. In the beginning, we didn't have that much support

from major unions. We didn't have that much support from political figures. A lot of prominent people in America didn't believe that we were going to not only even get to an election. So we were written off by a lot of people, a lot of experts as well. And that, of course, externally, what people didn't realize that as Amazon workers, we don't see any of the negativity. We have to work, as I mentioned, 10 to 12 hours a day. And most of us have a second job. So me, for example, I worked three days a week at Amazon, four days a week sometimes

on overtime. And then my second job was at MetLife Stadium, the football stadium on the weekends, on my weekends. So I had a second job, like most Amazon workers have a second job because the paycheck is not enough. It's not sustainable for the cost of living, especially in New York. So externally, we just try to keep everything grounded, keep everything simple, and earn the trust of the workers by showing up every day and building relationships with them.

And the external drama didn't really matter to us. It was really just focusing on meeting workers where they at and being there for them when they need. Thank you. And Mars, as I said, the film's really honest portrayal of union organizing also documented the many internal challenges. And it was that was really interesting to see to see into that in real time, too. So Mars, what did you notice? What did you track as some of the internal challenges and how did the group move through or beyond these challenges? Yeah, definitely. And I think one thing I want to emphasize is just how kind of brave and generous it was for Chris and the ALU to let our crew film this whole process.

You know, it was such an honor to bear witness to what they were doing. And I think now it's such a gift to workers and organizers everywhere to also get to witness what they did throughout the campaign, like the highs and lows, you know, kind of like the good, the bad and the ugly. It's just very generous and very brave. And like, on top of everything that Chris just described that they were dealing with, there was also a camera crew around documenting their every effort, right? Like that's really, that's not easy. So it's just, it's incredible that this even came to be. As far as the internal challenges that we witnessed, I guess I would say, like I would summarize it as just an issue with sustainability. What was so

crazy about what the ALU was doing, right, is that it was an entirely Amazon worker-led effort, which meant that, you know, you have organizers coming off a 10, 12-hour shift and then going right across the street to the organizing tent to spend hours there organizing, which is hard work, you know, explaining things to your coworkers, trying to convince people that aren't into what you're doing. It's, you know, really tiring, grueling work, and you're doing that right after working for hours at Amazon, which is so exhausting. To this day, I cannot believe just the endurance of what we witnessed.

I think a couple of times, Chris, you were at the tent for like three days straight, just sleeping in your car. It was just very crazy. And I think part of that has to do with, one of the reasons that Amazon is so hard to organize is the employee turnover. And what that means is that's the rate at which workers are getting fired

or are quitting or leaving the job. And so with Amazon, the turnover rate is, I think the average is like 150%. Another way of saying that is every six months, it's an entirely new workforce. So this is crazy. Workers are just coming and going. And as far as the union organizing work

in which you have to sign people up, in order to get to a petition, it is so hard to do that because people are constantly, constantly the signatures that you're getting are no longer usable because that worker has left the company. So in order, what was so amazing about the ALU

was that they were meeting the urgency and the pace of that. And they were just moving really quickly to get signatures and to keep up with that pace. But then the flip side of that is that it's very hard to do that short-term urgent work and also be thinking long-term about like the structures of the union. What are like the long term plans? How are you going to support workers in an ongoing way? And on top of also

working at Amazon. So doing all these things at once is just really hard to do it in a sustainable way. And so I think one of the major things that our team saw was that it was so, you know, of course, everyone was getting burnt out and it was really hard to keep up the pace of this. And then especially once the ALU won the JFK 8 election, there was suddenly all this media attention. So now they had to deal with, you know, it's like the eyes of the world are on them. There's so much pressure. So yeah, so I think that led to a lot of internal difficulties just around the balance of how quick-paced the organizing had to be but also the need for like long-term building. And again, with all the things that Chris was saying around

there was a real lack of resources. I mean, the union won that campaign with like a GoFundMe where they raised $120,000. All of this is just, you know it's kind of unbelievable to this day, right? That that's like the context in which they were organizing. So yeah, so I think those issues of sustainability and burnout, these are things that organizers everywhere have to deal with and I think really impacted and continue to impact the ALU and other people attempting to organize Amazon. And then also once you have people that are really

burnt out that are dealing with, you know, where they're struggling to sustain themselves as organizers, it's really easy to turn against each other and to take out frustrations and get into conflict with one another, which is exactly right, what like the boss and what the company wants you to do. So I would say as far as how the union addressed this and moved beyond this, something that I really appreciated about Chris's leadership was there was just a constant reminder of who the actual enemy was.

It's the company, it's Amazon, it's the billionaires, it's the union busters, it's not your comrades. So it's hard in the moment to remember that, but I think it's kind of like a constant reminder of what actually is the issue, what actually is the enemy, and grounding yourself in that. Thank you. Yeah. And I definitely saw that this has been something that we've explored on our show is the difference

between like very horizontal leadership, like sociocratic, you know, like Occupy movement style leadership, and then the idea of leaders and actual leaders, right? And I could see that kind of tension emerging. How do you appreciate and hear from everyone, but also recognize that people have had a lot of experience, a lot of years, a lot of trials and tribulations in this movement? So Chris, is there anything else you'd add by way of what were the internal challenges and how you all move through and beyond them? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Mars is 100% correct. Organizing is hard, you know, and I think people don't realize how hard it is until they actually end the fight because they see things surface level. They get inspired like many others. They get inspired by movements. They want to join,

then they join, and then they realize it's difficult and it's stressful and it's hard and then they don't know how to harness their frustration and really focus on the task at hand and sometimes that causes internal conflicts. For more context, everybody that I was organizing with, for the most part, the majority of them never been in unions before. Just like myself, we weren't not only educated, we were learning ourselves on what a union is at the same time, walking and chewing bubble gum at the same time. I was fortunate enough to have been in a few unions prior to Amazon. I was a former Teamster, so I had a little bit of experience, but I wasn't heavily involved in the organizing efforts but to know

that most of the people that I'm organizing with, most of us were in our 20s at the time. I got hired at 25 at Amazon but a lot of the organizers were still in their 20s. A lot of them never had a real career job yet. Amazon was like their first job right out of college. So telling them how to organize a union at the same time forming a union, creating a union, it's a very difficult thing to do. Especially when you're bringing together people from all different backgrounds and creeds, we're gonna have difference of opinions.

And I think that's a part of every organization you can think of in existence. There's always to be a difference of opinion, but this is how you navigate and how you get through that is the real issue. Of course, we're going to experience these problems forever. There's always going to be new leadership even within the union. I'm no longer the president, so there's always going to be accountability that has to be held. And there's nothing wrong with that.

There's nothing wrong with holding unions accountable, just like we hold the employers accountable and elected officials accountable. And I think that's what makes the movement stronger, is that if it's coming from a genuine place, if it's coming from what I like to say, the bottom up instead of the top down, there's always room for improvement. And the thing that Mars mentioned as well is, yeah, we won a historical victory that nobody could have ever fathomed or imagined, not even myself. And when it happened, it happened so rapidly, so fast, a lot of us really couldn't deal with all the attention that we were getting.

And that also added to the woes that we were dealing with. But needless to say, we're still strong, we're still fighting the good fight. The reason why we don't have a bargaining order is not because of us, it's because of the system. A lot of issues that we're dealing with is not to be put on the workers and the organizers. It's because the system that was in place wasn't meant for us to win. And that's what we have to address, is that the system, the NLRB,

the National Labor Relations Board, to file in for an election, the process of even after you win, the bargaining order should have been handed to us by the Biden administration. That claim to say they're the most pro-labor union president in history. If that was the case, the day he met me instead of handing Jeff Bezos $10 billion, he should have handed me a bargaining order so that we can go and hold

the company accountable and sit down at the table and negotiate a contract. But that doesn't happen. And of course, in longevity, when you're talking about three, four years later, we still don't have the opportunity to negotiate a contract without going on a strike. And that's what we're planning for now. You're listening to an Upstream Conversation

with Chris Smalls and Mars Varone. We'll be right back. The You The That That was You Are Not a Number, part of the original score for Union, composed by Robert Icke and Aubrey Lowe. Now back to our conversation with Chris Smalls and Marz Varone. Chris, you mentioned that, you know, in your upbringing, you didn't learn a lot about unions. It wasn't in your school's curriculum. And then in addition to that, there's things that people are taught about unions that are very like demonizing of unions, very stigmatizing.

So you know, as has you said, Mars, one of the aspects, one of the things they had to do is get people to sign the cards, get people to join the effort. So Chris, what did you have to help people unlearn about unions in the unionizing efforts to get people to join the campaign? Yeah, I had to teach people, especially just give people clarity. Like Staten Island has a history of its own when it comes to unionizing and the Teamsters. Back then it was ran up by Jimmy Hoffa, a former mobster, and a lot of the stigmas and rumors you hear about the Teamsters always have to do with the mobtide days, the days they were tied to the mobs and the days where they were very violent.

And yeah, a lot of those rumors are still circulated to this day. They still believe that in some capacity, like even with the new leadership and Sean O'Brien, they feel like there's still some ties to the moms. And I'm like, no, I have to debunk that, you know? And also, yeah, just the rumors that the company put out there that unions can't really provide anything for you guys. They can't really change anything for you guys fundamentally. And that's just wrong. This is a false narrative. And I start off with the benefits of what unions can do.

And statistically, unionized workers make roughly 12 to $15,000 more than un-unionized workers. So just starting with all the positives is a way that I start the conversations and even a step further I don't even start off with anything that pertains to unions. I tell my organizers try to get to know workers or people on a personal level. What is the issues in their household? What are they going through? What are their commute like to work? What are their needs? What are their disabilities, if they have any? What are some of their hobbies that they're into? What do their kids go to school at? Those type of conversations, when you actually get to know somebody on a personal level, you can fill and actually assess what they may need. And that can open the doorway for a conversation on why unions are important. And I think that helped us in our campaign because the company is telling

the workers that unions can't do anything for you. But then on the flip side, we were able to expose how much money Amazon was spending on union busting and that that was the case and we were not important. Then why was the company doubling down, tripling down on trying to stop our efforts? And ultimately when they arrested me, I think they handed us our victory the day they arrested me because at that moment in the campaign, it was already eight or nine months that workers have already earned trust, built a relationship with me and my organizers for eight or nine months straight. And they saw me out there every day for over 300 plus days,

handing out food, handing out clothing items for back to school, handing out books, handing out literature. And when they saw me get arrested, that was the turning point for our campaign. And I believe just staying consistent and persevering through the adversity, there's nothing like that. And I always say this in my speeches as well. No amount of money in the world can amount to the power of people when we come together? Yeah, beautiful. And I really heard that sense of connection and solidarity in the way you called people comrade, you know, on the Zoom calls and getting to know one another.

That theme of like, we are in this together felt really, really alive in the film. And another thing about unions that has happened, or at least for some unions, is a process of depoliticization. So maybe like a defanging or a siphoning of unions or separating of unions from kind of like larger post-capitalist, anti-capitalist efforts.

So Mars, can you talk about how you saw and see the ALU and unions in general reconnecting with this movement to end capitalism, helping us not only survive today, but helping us with the necessary transition from the extractive and exploitative economic system that we're currently under. Yeah, I think we're at a really, you know, a lot of people refer to the past couple of years in the labor movement as this really resurgent moment. And I think what's happening is a lot of previously, like you're saying, where unions may have distanced themselves from other political efforts or connecting to other, you know, social justice fights. I think we're seeing a lot of young workers, we're seeing a lot of workers of color pushing for the movement to actually connect the dots between different systems of oppression.

And I think we're at this really, yeah, kind of like fascinating and critical moment in which you have these old fashioned traditional ways of union organizing that a lot of those methods are tried and true, are effective. that a lot of those methods are tried and true, are effective, but now we need to reconsider and reassess a lot of those strategies to meet the current moment. And I think that's where the ALU is so remarkable is how 21st century the ALU feels, right? Where because it's worker let, you know, because it's made up of Amazon workers, there's no better group to actually understand how to organize Amazon. Like part of the reason that unions have had such trouble organizing Amazon for years and years was that they were going about it in these old-fashioned traditional ways and they weren't responding to what makes the company different compared to like employers of the past, right? One thing that our team talks about a lot is in the same way that

Ford has kind of defined the last century of work, Amazon is now the company that's setting the standard for what the future of work could look like and what we have to really fight against. Because the stakes are really high. It's like we're up against a future of work in which The stakes are really high. It's like we're up against a future of work in which surveillance, constant turnover, like a gig economy model in which people are just coming and going, they have no benefits, no protections,

high injury rates, automation, a purposeful alienation of workers from their coworkers. That's what we're headed towards. That's what makes Amazon so innovative and so successful is all of those elements in which they can just exploit their workforce and collect their profits. That's what we're heading towards. And so the ALU understood the intricacies

of working at Amazon and so could design their organizing strategies to meet that. One thing that I think is really amazing about the campaign, so historically unions, when you're filing for an NLRB election, the precedent is that you file for the election once you've had 90% of the workforce sign the authorization cards.

What made the ALU different was that they submitted at the 30% threshold, which is the absolute minimum threshold to get an election. Sorry to get into the nitty gritty of that LRB stuff. But the point is they did something that every traditional union was like, did not take seriously, said that's completely wrong, this is not going to work, kind of made them to seem like fools. But they were right, because the only way that you could organize Amazon because there's such high turnover was to file at that bare minimum. So

that's just an example of the ways in which having an effort that's led by the workers at the company that understands the specific, what makes Amazon unique. That's what's so important. That's what makes the ALU so incredible and it's so important in this moment in the labor movement is that we need to have a merging of the wealth of knowledge from centuries of labor organizing, but now understanding the specificities of the future of work of companies like Amazon that we're dealing with now.

So I see a lot of potential and I have a lot of hope in that kind of merging and the work that, you know, like now that the ALU is working with the Teamster is kind of the merging of those two different worlds of organizing. So I see a lot of potential there, but it is going to be challenging. And that's kind of like the task at hand

is how do we learn from the past, but also respond to the current moment. Absolutely. And you're reminding me of a conversation we had recently with Giannis Varoufakis, who talked about how we've moved from capitalism into techno feudalism. And he really spoke a lot about Amazon and just what you're saying about how it's transformed the nature of work. And that's why, again, this win is so epic in the face of this really larger transition from capitalism to techno-feudalism and all that that means for us. So just to share a few things. So, you know, from the win, the JFK-8 win, we had the New York Times describe it as one of the biggest victories for organized labor in a generation. We had Jacobin describe it as the most important labor victory in the United

States since the 1930s. And we're going to play a clip now of you, Chris, announcing that win. Just, it's such a momentous and joyous occasion. So let's play that clip. So let's play that clip. Yeah, this moment, damn, man, I ain't gonna cry right now, but. I spent the last 11 months, the folks behind me spent the last 11 months as well, inside, outside the building at the bus stop, earning the trust of these workers, building relationships. We did whatever it took to connect with those workers, to make their daily lives just a little bit easier. Monday, we'll be right back at it.

We're gonna be phone banking. We're gonna be organizing the LBJ-5 workers, making sure that they're committed to vote. Do you think that's a good business? Oh, we want to thank Jeff Bezos for going to space, because when he was up there, we was starting to keep it up. Yeah, we was driving thank Jeff Bezos for going to space because when he was up there we was starting to keep it low. He was out there getting shit.

He was buying in, buying in. They paid how much money? It was about 4.5 million dollars to consulting lawyers and firms, the same lawyers I just shook hands while we kicked their ass. Thank you all, appreciate it. Holla! Hey, I'm Young! shook hands while we kicked their ass. Thank you all. Appreciate it. ALU!

ALU! ALU! ALU! ALU! Yeah, an epic moment. And now, as you alluded to, Chris, I would love to hear how was that moment, but then also what's been the story of the union since that historic win? Bring us into the present. You've alluded to this, but I think it's important to hear

where has it come from that moment and where is it at now? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that moment, I want everybody to experience that moment. It was the Greatest day of my life next to the birth of my kids, you know I can definitely attest to that and I think I speak on behalf of everybody when I say that was probably one of the greatest days of our lives and um Yeah, it was

It was a whirlwind definitely I said this when I was fired that my life changed forever, but then I think it was times too when we won a historical victory. And yeah, on our birthdays coming up, we just had the anniversary of our victory, which was April 1st, no April Fool's Day, but April 1st is our anniversary. That was our three-year anniversary. Four years for the union's existence on April 20th is our four-year anniversary, our birthday. So yeah, just to see how much we accomplished since then. It's been very monumental, historical, and a journey for sure. We inspired, as you mentioned, millions of workers around the world.

It's hard to even put that into context because a lot of us are not able to leave the country as often as I am. By the way, I just got my passport after we won. So to travel the world to all of these different countries and be praised about our victory and see how it resonated with the workers in different countries, I still can't even express how powerful it is that the ALU is probably talked about in every country in the world. And especially when it comes to socialist countries and communist countries, countries that have labor parties, Amazon labor union is in every union's mouth. It's in every Amazon workers mouth in these other countries

as well. And there's been other campaigns that happened inspired by our victory, even before the movie and the film came out, other campaigns, for example, that I was able to even help launch, for example, the COVID tree in the UK, I was out there when they first launched. Vancouver, they had a campaign last year. Canada, they also were successful in unionizing their first unionized building in Amazon,

for Amazon in Canada last year. Unfortunately, the company closed the building down, but they still were inspired by the Amazon labor union. Since our victory, there's been over 25 campaigns, I believe, almost 30 campaigns nationwide. And right now, currently, after the largest Amazon strike in history that we just participated in in December, this past December, we're continuing to organize. I'm out here in California, meeting with the Amazon Teamster head. Probably tomorrow, I'm going to meet up with the Teamsters over here in California. We just had a couple of meetings with the local Amazon Labor Union, IBT. We just had a local meeting two weeks ago. I put together a powerful

plan. I'm not going to reveal the plan, but I have a powerful plan in motion right now. And I will tell everybody that this plan that I have in motion is going to be like no other. It's going to be really, really powerful once we do go public with it. Something that Amazon is not going to expect at all. And hopefully, if we're able to execute this plan, we're going to rewrite history again one more time. And I wish I could share more details about it, but I'm looking forward to going public. I'll tell everybody here that's listening, stay tuned. Just pay attention because in the next coming months, you will hear some more announcements

from what the unions that are organizing Amazon are doing. And I think everybody is gonna be happy to hear that we're continuing this fight and not only continuing this fight, but we're building a campaign that's going to hopefully shut down operations to get us a contract. Very exciting. And I'm reminded of this quote as you're sharing all the wins and all the excitement and all the inspiration around the world, this quote that things are getting

better and better and worse and worse, faster and faster. And I say that in part because right now in the present, we have the federal unions leading the resistance to cuts by the billionaire Elon Musk and his so-called Department of Government efficiency. And we have just a real attack on unions at the federal level. And unions, some unions are saying that this order, this attack is the biggest attack on the labor movement in US history. So we have like these historic wins and these historic attacks. So Chris, you know, what would you say about the larger context that this exciting news that you're sharing is in, in relation to the Trump administration and the attack on unions nationally, but also globally?

Yeah, I mean, it's going to happen. Unfortunately, things have to get worse before it gets better. America as a whole, as a country, we're very retroactive, unfortunately. We wait for things to happen to us before we actually take action. We saw that with the pandemic as a lot of us wasn't prepared. And yeah, that started from the government, from the top down. They made the most money. Billionaires made the most money during the pandemic and the poor got poorer and people died.

We're seeing the attack on labor because labor is a real threat. They understand the importance of solidarity and bringing people together on working class issues. So billionaires are going to do whatever they can in their power, spending money, gutting the NLRB, destroying the confidence in workers to try to even organize. They're going to do everything over the next three to four years. So I just tell people, don't focus on that. Don't focus on the negativity because it's going to happen. We know who Vice President Elon Musk is. We know who Trump is. We know what the two party system has done for us. And we know that the only way that we have to

control our destiny is by withholding our labor. And knowing that, we're in a very unprecedented time, but I'm very, I guess you could say motivated and also excited about these times because I know when we come together once again as people, we can overcome any oligarchy. And this one is going to be challenging. We have notoriously, Elon Musk, who is now the, you know, I think he's top one or two, if he's not the richest man in the world now. And we have an opportunity to once again, find an avenue to challenge and combat this government in 2028. So it's really the question, what are these labor unions, what are we as a working class gonna do

for the next two to three years? Not what is Trump and the administration gonna do? Because we know what their plan is. Their plan is obviously working for them. We need to figure out as the working class, what is gonna be our response? What is gonna be the umbrella that we're underneath that's going to be the shield. What is going to be the umbrella that we're underneath that's going to be the shield for the working class. And I only believe that unions are the shield of the working class. And

we have to once again not only call and hold accountability out to the administration, but stay focused on the task at hand and organize in our best capacity. Everybody has a role to play, and we have to play these roles over the next two to three years. Everybody can't be a leader. Everybody can't be an activist. Everybody can't be both, but you can be one of the two. And if you're a leader, you lead. If you're an activist, you get active. And that's what we have to do over the next three to four years.

We have to get active. We have to continue to organize and stay focused and on task at hand. Don't get distracted by Elon and Trump because every day, every week, you're going to hear something new. You're going to hear something bad. You're going to hear something negative. And it's not going to do you good to continue just

regurgitating that mentally. Instead, you get your community together, you get your organizers together, and you organize. And I hope to see more of that. And I hope to see that these labor unions really step up to the plate over the next three to four years. This is why I'm working on currently forming the Labor Party for the US. Very exciting. And I love that idea of unions as the shield for the working class.

And I also, I saw recently that you posted Chris that MAGA stands for Meta, Amazon, Google, Apple. So you're really going to that upstream root cause of corporations and their corporate rule. And yeah, I just wanna kind of come to a close by saying this really felt like in the film and also just hearing and being with the story of the ALU that this is a true David and Goliath story.

And one of my favorite scenes illustrating this was when you Chris spoke truth to power, in this case, Senator Lindsey Graham in the Senate Banking Committee meeting. So let's play that clip to kind of close us out further Amazon cannot even come to grips with reality But the workers in Staten Island won the union election there and where? Their strategy is obvious. They're gonna

stall and stall and stall. Senator Graham? Wow. You can have oversight hearings all you like, but you've determined Amazon is a piece of crap company. That's your political bias. Thank you. Well first of all I want to address Mr. Graham. You forgot that the people are the ones that make these corporations go. It's not the other way around. And I think that it's in your best interest to realize that you should listen because we do represent your constituents as well. And we're the ones that are suffering in the corporations that you're talking about. I'm going to let you know right now that on behalf of the Amazon Labor Union and the hundreds of thousands of workers across this country, that we will continue to organize.

This is not a left or right thing. This is a working class issue. And the workers at the bottom are the ones who make these corporations go. Powerful, powerful clip. And yeah, I think to kind of close, Chris, I'd love to hear from you. You know, what has it been like to face such corporate and political power? Where do you find the strength and the courage to keep going? The people around me. It's really simple.

I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the people around me. They're still with me day ones. My brothers and sisters in the fight, the Amazon workers that I talk to every day, they motivate me. And of course, my children, I'm fighting so that my children don't have to go through the things I'm going through and have to fight as hard as I'm fighting. And yeah, really the younger generation, the student movement, the Palestinian movement right now, the encampments, the encampments, they took a page out of our

book with the encampments, and vice versa. Setting up tents on campuses, disrupting, we all for it. And I think that these struggles are all connected. And that gives me motivation every day. Every day when I'm on social media scrolling and I get to see other movements that remind me of the struggle that we had at Amazon and how we continue to fight alongside with one another. That tells me that there's something right that we're doing.

And I'm just a vessel. I know that a lot of people call me a leader and I embraced that a long time ago. And as a leader, my job is to lead by example. And if I don't get up and do the work that I'm doing I know that nobody else is going to pick up where I left off so I had to fight as long as I can for however long I can this is a lifetime fight and I tell people that you can't have one foot and you got to have both feet in and You know love and solidarity is how we win both feet in. And, you know, love and solidarity is how we win.

Absolutely. So we always close with closing invitations for our listeners. So Mars, let's start with you. Do you have a hope or prayer for May Day 2025? And any next steps or closing invitations for those listening? Yeah, I think I would just echo some of what Chris said about the call for everyone to organize and kind of the role that everyone can play in this fight right now. You know, as we've been saying, it's sort of like with each passing day, there's some new extreme, there's some new, you know, like, some record breaking horrible thing that sets a new precedent. And rather than constantly reacting and burning yourself out or on the flip side, making yourself numb, what we really need is long-term organizing, long-term community building. It's a tough contradiction of this work is really urgent and yet also we're in it for the long haul. And it's also just good for your mental health to join a political organization or to work with your community to feel like you're, you know, surrounded by other people who are committed to love and solidarity.

Like Chris said, not only is it important in winning this fight, but it's just, it kind of helps you get through what feels so hard right now. What else do I want to say? I guess also, I think we're seeing a real failure kind of in leadership across supposedly progressive institutions, like the ways that we're seeing, you know, the presidents of different universities, like, sell out their students to ICE, things like that. And I think, you know, now more than ever, we can't cower or make concessions to this administration. Now more than ever, we have to fight. We're on the offense, not the defense. And so again, what Chris was saying about like,

now's the time to strike. Now's not the time to go and hide and go about law abiding ways of getting things done. That doesn't work. That's not gonna work for this administration. It's not a viable plan. Selling out your most vulnerable members and then inevitably your whole membership, it's not a viable plan. Selling out your most vulnerable members and then inevitably your whole membership, it's not going to work.

So we need to stand in solidarity. We need to build towards general strikes. Yeah, again, we're in the fight of our lives, and that means going on the offense, not the defense. I also think, as scary as these times are, there's something kind of powerful of we're kind of living through a paradigm shift. We're living through a time in which things are going to go down in the next couple of years. And rather than seeing that as scary, I think people should see that as sort of

a call. Like for whatever reason, you're here on this earth right now at this time. And so how are you going to use your life and your, you know, what are you going to do with your days to contribute to this fight rather than again, just kind of like fading into resignation or tapping out of it? I think we can see it as an inspirational call and a source of motivation to be a part of transformative change. So that's my larger call, my more specific call, is I just wanted to direct listeners to Union's website. So unionthefilm.com. This is where you can sign up for a newsletter, you can follow us on social media, you can kind of just keep, stay updated about the film.

Something, you know, this is a whole other podcast, but one of the most interesting aspects of the film is that we're releasing it independently because we couldn't secure distribution, you know, on a mainstream corporate platform, I think for obvious reasons. But anyways, and so... It's not on Amazon Prime?

No. No. But this means, yeah, that it's interesting because we can actually kind of release it in sort of a radical way in which we're releasing it through grassroots networks. We're releasing it in ways where we're really trying to support labor organizing efforts in the distribution of the film. So, yeah, so just want to call out you can now, if this podcast is being released on May Day, you can rent the film by going to our website. You can also host screenings for your union, for your community organization. And those are just really beautiful ways to bring community together, to talk about organizing. Yeah, our screenings can often be really special and useful places for organizing. So yeah, and we'd love to work with whoever. So

definitely reach out to us about that. Yes. and we will for sure link to the website and also to your work, Chris, so people can stay tuned for those announcements and updates. And I love Mars that you're saying, if you ever longed for a call to action, this is the moment. So Chris, let's close with you. Do you have any hope or prayer for May Day 2025 and any closing invitations for those listening? Yeah, honestly, it's everything Mars is saying, encourage everybody to do. And also, you know, the times that we're in right now, there's a point in no return. This administration, if it's not checked, or if it goes unchecked, foreseeable future, we may not have a planet to fight for. So no matter what movements you're a part of,

no matter what your struggle is, what your political ideology is, this is the time to take action, like Marce is saying. And I like to end with this, you know, one out of every four Americans And I like to end with this, you know, one out of every four Americans in the next few years is going to work at Amazon. They have already in 30 years hired and fired the entire American workforce. So the Amazon labor union fight is absolutely your fight as well. Amazon owns 75 other companies. You could do the research, some of them you know already like Whole Foods. Some people don't even know that when you're gambling at the MGM gram, you're owned by

Amazon. When you're streaming on Twitch. So doing your research, understanding that this monopoly and the richest man in the world, one of them, Jeff Bezos, makes too much damn money and that we deserve our fair share as workers You will understand why this fight is your fight as well because Amazon workers is your loved ones your neighbors your friends your family We're the ones that's in your communities. You see us every day delivering your packages So get involved educate one another talk to your friends and family and I say this as well, the revolution starts with yourself. You've been listening to an Upstream conversation with Chris Smalls and Mars Varone. Chris is a co-founder and former president of the Amazon Labor Union and

Mars is the producer of Union, a documentary released in 2024 which tells the story of the historic unionizing effort against Amazon. Please check the show notes for links to any of the resources mentioned in this episode. Thank you to Robert Ike and Aubrey Lowe for the intermission music. Upstream THE music was composed by me, Robbie. Upstream is almost entirely listener funded. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. There are a number of ways in which you can support us financially. You can sign up to be a Patreon subscriber, which will give you access to bi-weekly episodes

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