Upstream - Palestine Pt. 8: Indigeneity and Settler-Colonialism w/ Krystal Two Bulls & Sumaya Awad

Episode Date: March 26, 2024

As the ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinian people continues, it's crucial that we continue to critically scrutinize and dismantle many of the myths and deadly ideologies that Israel and its Zionist supporters use to try and legitimize their project. We began our ongoing series on Palestine with a critical exploration of Zionism, and in this episode, Part 8 of this series, we’ll be zooming in on one particular element of Zionism: the claim of indigeneity. Zionists claim that the Jewish people as a whole have a right to the land between the river and sea because they are, quote, indigenous, to that region. Putting aside the question of whether this assertion can be substantiated—what do we do with this claim of indigeneity, especially as we see it being weaponized by the forces of Zionism? This is a huge question, and in this episode we’ll explore what it means to be Indigenous—both in the context of settler-colonialism and also as a relationship to land—and how our understanding of indigeneity relates to ongoing liberation struggles. And we’ve brought on two incredible guests to help us in this exploration. Krystal Two Bulls is an Oglala Lakota/Northern Cheyenne grassroots organizer, former Director of the NDN Collective’s Landback Campaign, and Executive Director of Honor the Earth. Sumaya Awad is Palestinian writer, analyst, and socialist organizer. She’s the Director of Strategy and Communications at the Adalah Justice Project and a contributor to and co-editor, along with brian bean, of Palestine: A Socialist Introduction, published by Haymarket Books.  What does it mean to be Indigenous? How does one's relationship to the land inform our ideas about indigeneity? How does the structure of settler-colonialism form a contradiction in dialectical relationship to indigeneity? And how are the struggles of Indigenous people, from here in the so-called United States, to those in Palestine, interrelated? These are just some of the questions that we explore in this conversation with Sumaya Awad and Krystal Two Bulls. And before we get started, Upstream is almost entirely listener funded—we couldn't keep this project going without your support. There are a number of ways in which you can support us financially: you can sign up to be a Patreon subscriber which will give you access to bonus episodes, at least one a month but usually more, at Patreon.com/upstreampodcast, and you can also make a tax-deductible recurring donation or a one-time donation on our website, upstreampodcast.org/support. Through your support you’ll be helping us keep Upstream sustainable and helping to keep this whole project going—socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund so thank you in advance for the crucial support. Further resources: Honor the Earth Adalah Justice Project Palestine: A Socialist Introduction co-edited by Sumaya Awad and brian bean Upstream: Palestine Pt. 1: A Socialist Introduction with Sumaya Awad Upstream: Palestine Pt. 2: Justice for Some with Noura Erakat Upstream: Palestine Pt. 3: Settler-Colonialism and Medical Apartheid with Rupa Marya & Jess Ghannam Upstream: Palestine Pt. 4: False Solutions and Paths of Resistance with Sumaya Awad Upstream: Palestine Pt. 5: The Political Economy of Palestine with Adam Hanieh Upstream: Palestine Pt. 6: One State with Ghada Karmi Upstream: Palestine Pt. 7: Direct Action w/ Max Geller of Palestine Action Donate to Middle Eastern Children's Alliance (MECA) Anera: Provide urgent humanitarian aid to Palestinians Write your member of Congress to demand an immediate ceasefire Neither Settler nor Native  The Making and Unmaking of Permanent Minorities by Mahmood Mamdani Khobs by Samih al-Qasim Same old story / same old song / like bread on the banquet of eternity. / So let the vacant heads / and the croaking throats / during the hour of ablution - / enter your filthy bathrooms, / o fortress of sorrow, o city of crime! This episode of Upstream was made possible with support from listeners like you and from A Bookkeeping Cooperative. Want to learn about values-aligned financial management? A Bookkeeping Cooperative offers engaging online workshops on organizational finances to develop the skills and confidence of those working towards a just world beyond capitalism. Sign up at www.bookkeeping.coop Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at  upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

This episode is brought to you in part by A Bookkeeping Cooperative. Want to learn about values-aligned financial management? A Bookkeeping Cooperative offers engaging online workshops on organizational finances to develop the skills and confidence of those working towards a just world beyond capitalism. Sign up at www.bookkeeping.coop. That's www.book.coop. When I heard about the olive trees and seeing these pictures of that, that was the exact same thing that was happening. It's like they knew if they destroyed the buffalo, which they did, millions and millions of the wild buffalo on the Great Plains were massacred and killed and none of their their body or anything was utilized. They were just left to rot. And you reference that to pictures that you can see of like

these huge mountains of buffalo skulls that are piled up, right? And that was strategic. That was done specifically because they knew if they could kill our economy and they could kill our connection and our relationship to the buffalo and our ability to feed ourselves and take care of ourselves. And spiritually, our relationship to our relative,

the buffalo, they knew that it would disconnect us further from the land and it would further their project, right? And I viewed that very much the same of what was happening with the olive tree. They do that intentionally. They know if they destroy these things that it disconnects us, right? And that if they further disconnect us, then they're able to drive larger wedges in there and further their settler colonial states. You are listening to Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. Upstream.

A podcast of documentaries and conversations that invites you to unlearn everything you thought you knew about economics. I'm Della Duncan. And I'm Robert Raymond. As the ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinian people continues, it's crucial that we continue to critically scrutinize and dismantle many of the myths and deadly ideologies that Israel

and its Zionist supporters use to try and legitimize their project. We began our ongoing series on Palestine with a critical exploration of Zionism and in this episode, part 8 of this series, we'll be zooming in on one particular element of Zionism, the claim of indigeneity. Zionists claim that the Jewish people as a whole have a right to the land between the river and the sea, because they are quote, indigenous to that region. Putting aside the question of whether this assertion can be substantiated, what do we do with this claim of indigeneity, especially as we see it being weaponized

by the forces of Zionism? This is a huge question, and in this episode, we'll explore what does it mean to be indigenous, both in the context of settler colonialism and also as a relationship to land, and how our understanding of indigeneity relates to ongoing liberation struggles. And we've brought on two incredible guests to help us in this exploration. Crystal Tubles is an Oglala Lakota Northern Cheyenne grassroots organizer, former director of the NDN Collective's Land Back Campaign,

and executive director of Honor the Earth. Sumaya Awad is a Palestinian writer, analyst, and socialist organizer. She is the director of strategy and communications at the Adala Justice Project, and a contributor to and co-editor along with Brian Bean of Palestine, a Socialist Introduction, published by Haymarket Books.

What does it mean to be Indigenous? How does one's relationship to the land inform our ideas about Indigeneity? How does the structure of settler colonialism form a contradiction in dialectical relationship to indigeneity? And how are the struggles of indigenous peoples from here in the so-called United States to those in Palestine interrelated? These are just some of the questions we'll explore in this conversation with Sumaya Awad and Crystal Tubals.

And before we get started, Upstream is almost entirely listener funded. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. There are a number of ways that you can support us financially. You can sign up to be a Patreon subscriber, which will give you access to bonus episodes, at least one a month, but usually more, at patreon.com forward slash upstream podcast. You can also make a tax deductible recurring donation or a one-time donation on our website at upstreampodcast.org forward slash support. Through your support, you'll be helping keep

Upstream sustainable and helping keep this whole project going. Socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund, so thank you in advance for the crucial support. And now, here's Robert in conversation with Crystal Tubles and Sumaya Awad. All right, well Crystal, Sumaya, it's really great to have both of you on and I'm wondering if maybe you could both begin by introducing

yourselves for our listeners and telling us a little bit about how you came to do the work that you're doing. So, I'm Oglala Lakota, Northern Cheyenne. I reside in Northern Cheyenne territory in southeastern Montana, but oftentimes go back and forth between South Dakota, Montana, my people's territories. How I got to the work is actually a pretty long story, but in summation, I come from peoples who have resisted for a long time, but my parents were organizers. They've organized against coal mines here in our territory.

My grandparents organized against coal mining. So it's been about 40 years that we've been able to hold off coal mining in our territory and on our lands. And so I grew up seeing my parents organize in our community, just, you know, good old fashioned grassroots organizing knocking on doors, you know, getting petitions together, talking to the people, things like that. And so, you know, I grew up really seeing that. And then as I, yeah, just grew into an adult, you know, started to organize in many different places. And my journey led me to many different spaces in life. But I've organized on many

front lines. I'm a veteran as well. And I think I'm an anti-war veteran, anti-militarist veteran. And I think that was a really formative thing where it made it very clear who my people were. I think when I was deployed in 2009, 2010, I related more to the people who were working on military installations and whose lands we were occupying than the people I served with. And so it was a really formative time for myself

where I realized like I can't be a part of this anymore. And that really threw me down a path of like, just really recognizing like the difference between the oppressed and the oppressors and how our oppressors use all these different tools against us, including ourselves, against ourselves. And so it was a very, obviously an eye-opener for me at a very young age. And that really threw me down the path of organizing and a lot more commitment to what is just and what is right.

And from that point, you know, I dove in headfirst to all of the organizing, you know, environmental justice, anti-war organizing, Indigenous rights and sovereignty. And then later in my life, met amazing people that took me down the road of, yeah, having anti-Zionist politic and abolitionist politic and whatnot. And so, you know, have been on this journey for, for quite a long time since I was basically a child, you know, and then have had so many people, like amazing people that have kind of guided me and mentored me through life.

That's kind of led me to this point where I am now. Thank you so much. Sumaya. Sumaya Alwald. I am Palestinian, currently based in New York City, which is the Napa land. And I don't know how to answer the question of when it all started. It feels like you're just born into it when you're Palestinian. My grandfather, who was from Jerusalem, was forced out in 1948 along with most of his family and they became refugees in Lebanon

and he was never able to return to his home in Jerusalem, which actually still stands today, that exact house. So I grew up with that being like a very integral part of my identity and how I view the world and how I interact with it. A lot of it, just not of my own choosing. We don't choose where we're born and what we're born into. I was in elementary school during the Iraq war and I was in the US. And I think that was also a really important politicization moment for me because it understood Islamophobia

sort of firsthand and how that the role that plays in justifying a number of wars, just US imperialism in the Middle East. And I guess the last thing I'll mention is class. I think growing up and going to college in the US, I really began to understand the role of class and the importance of class in understanding how we build a movement for justice and what it will take to really transform society. That in fact, we have more in common with the workers

anywhere in the world than we do with the elite and the ruling classes, whether that, frankly, whether that be here in the US than we do with the elite and the ruling classes, whether that frankly, whether that be here in the US or in Palestine or anywhere else. And that was like a really, really important grounding in how I approach all my organizing today. Great. Yeah, thank you both so much for that. And so as as our listeners have probably been able to tell from the title of the episode where we're going to be talking about indigeneity and settler colonialism today. And so just to get us started,

my understanding of indigeneity has certainly evolved over the last even just a few months. And I would say it's sort of evolved into an understanding that it has something to do with connection to land, of course, and that it has an interesting relationship to settler colonialism, you know, that in a way it arises in opposition as well to settler colonialism. And, you know, dialectical materialists would characterize it. It's a contradiction to settler colonialism. I also think that there's something important about the nuances between indigeneity, more broadly speaking, and then being part

of a specific nation or a specific people, such as the Oglala Lakota people or the Palestinian people. So I'm wondering to start if maybe both of you could share with us how you define for yourselves the concept of indigeneity I do think that there's a lot of Co-opting and misuse or simple and misunderstandings around that term. I think it might be helpful to frame our discussion Moving forward with like a clear definition of the concept of indigeneity

What it is what it isn't from your perspectives and either one of you, whoever feels like you want to jump and attack this question first, please go ahead. Yeah. I mean, I don't think that there's like, you often feel like you have to have this like singular definition of things. And I don't think that that's the case. And I think that, yeah, and how we experience these things is obviously very different depending

on the context. But for me, there's, there's that I look at indigeneity. There's the way that I grew up, which is in my community, on my land, like with my people, and for us, with resistance. So for us, a lot of times when we use the word indigenous in my organizing lineage, we were taught that years ago when the first native folks made it to the United Nations, that they were there with other folks of the land from all over the world. And that when they got there, they needed a way for them to present themselves as this cohesive group of peoples. And then that's where they started to use the framing

of Indigenous, right? Of calling ourselves indigenous peoples in relationship to each other, right? And so for us, I grew up understanding it in that way. And so for me, I connected it immediately to like, oh, that's because like we're all peoples of the land, right? Like we are peoples who come from the land, who have that relationship from the land,

who are rooted in that land. But beyond that, I think, you know, as I grew up and started to develop like political analysis and understand these things, I was like, oh, we called ourselves that in a cohesive group because it brought us more power and it was in opposition to a colonial state, right, to settler colonialism. And so it's also, you know, the political identity, I think, that we've given ourselves. And so I think deeper than that, in terms of the way that I hold indigeneity as well, is that not only is it like in opposition to settler colonialism and

how we identify ourselves, but it's also how we see each other and relate to each other. And so for me, it's recognizing that there are other peoples in this world that have these same relationships to the land. And we call ourselves many different things, right? Like I'm Oglala Lakota, right? I come from the Oceti Shakowee people. I'm Northern Cheyenne.

I come from that territory as well. And those are my relationships. Those are, and how I introduce myself is in those languages. And those are my relationships. Those are and how I introduce myself is in those languages. And that's my relationship to the land, because that's where our language came from. That's where our identity came from. That's where we're rooted. And in recognizing that there's other peoples that have that same relationship to the land, and who have those same teachings. And I think saying indigenous is just this container that helps us relate to each other across languages,

across distance, across territories, in addition to looking at it in a political sense of like, it's also an opposition to settler colonialism, right? Into the settler colonial states that we are forced to exist within or to fight and resist against, right? But I'll just start with that. Yeah, thank you so much. That's really helpful. Sumia?

Yeah, thanks, Crystal. I agree with everything that Crystal just laid out. And I think in the Palestine context, it's really important to look at the concept of indigeneity, to push back against it being seen as just or like merely a relational or subjective term because I think that's often how it's used and certainly weaponized by Israel and the Israeli settler colonial project against Palestinians when you have Israelis saying oh we're indigenous to the land because Jews were here 2000 years ago when the reality is like we actually have to look at the facts on the ground right now where take any Palestinian village since 1948 where the people there can trace their family back,

their grandmothers, great grandmothers back for hundreds of years as being on that land, developing that land, having this relationship to the land, who are then wiped off the land and completely erased, ethnically cleansed, and replaced with settlers that claim to have this age-old relationship to the land that is so abstract and frankly, largely meaningless when the ethnic cleansing that's happening right now is so absolute, right, and so raw. And so it makes me think, when I think of, you know, the word in Janadia, I think a lot about the word like sovereignty and self-determination

and what that means and how important those are and how we understand what it is that we're fighting for when we're thinking of going up against settler colonialism, whether it's here in the US or in Palestine or elsewhere. And also to think about settler colonialism as something that comes hand in hand with the concept of nation states, that those are not two separate things, that the whole idea of a nation state

is deeply embedded in settler colonialism, that they actually reinforce each other, they come hand in hand. And there's this really great scholar, Mahmoud Mamdani, who's an anthropologist that writes a lot about this, but I think one of the things he says that really struck me is that for any nation state to be built, it requires this exclusivity, right? It requires ethnic cleansing, it requires violence and expulsion. And sovereignty is sort of the antithesis of that. What does it mean for there to be real sovereignty,

for that not to be confused with tolerance and assimilation, which I think is very big here in the US, and to some extent in Palestine, although it's a little different. And so just like unpacking these differences and thinking about what does sovereignty mean in the struggle against settler colonialism and internationalism and how important that is

as a framework. And I think that sort of connects to what Crystal was talking about, like how the term indigenous has brought together so many people across the world in this container that is useful in so many ways. And that's also internationalism and like transnational solidarity. What comes to mind right away when I'm thinking of sovereignty and self-determination in the case of Palestine is Israel's nation state law, which was introduced in 2018 and which very explicitly stipulated that the right to self-determination is a right reserved

exclusively for Jewish people. That in Israel you are afforded self-determination and sovereignty only if you are Jewish-Israeli, completely excluding Palestinians. And I think that's a really important example of the way in which settler colonialism plays out and how blatant it is. The other thing I wanted to mention that Crystal touched on or talked about

is land, relationship to the land. I think that is such a powerful and important part of defining this term. In the case of Palestine, there's this deep rooted raw connection to the land. And it's so visceral that even when Israeli soldiers were expanding the occupation in 1967 and taking over the occupied West Bank,

in their journals, they actually point out that they sort of marveled at how well taken care of the land was. The irrigation systems, the olive groves, the farmland, how it was nourished and nurtured despite the ongoing colonial project. Of course they then proceeded to like completely desecrate and burn the olive groves, ruin the land, and this goes on to this day where every year, hundreds of all of Groves are just to settle blaze. Water wells are destroyed and contaminated.

In Gaza, during this genocide in the last five months, one of the things that Israel did was completely contaminate the soil in Gaza by flooding the tunnels with seawater, saltwater, just destroying them. And I mention all of this because I think the concept or the aspect of land in relationship to the land is a really really important one and it is a really powerful one and

there's a reason that Israel goes to depths in destroying Palestinian land. There's a reason they set those olive groves ablaze. There's a reason they contaminate water wells, the water apartheid that's happening in Palestine. There's a reason that the Jewish National Fund every year plants thousands of non-native species on Palestinian land, again ruining the environment, and it's because they are trying to desecrate and destroy the land as it was. And that is part of the Seller Colonial Project and that is part of attempting and failing until now to completely sever this relationship between Palestinians and the land.

Thank you so much. Yeah, there's so many important points that you both touched on. There's probably like an entire conversation that we could have if we were just to dive deeper into any one of them. A couple of things that I really wanted to underscore is, Sumé, you brought up this fascinating view of how nation states are built, right? And how nations are created and how that relates to both the emergence of Zionism as a European nation state building project that was trying to emulate the violent processes of European nation states, which is also very much

connected to the colonization of what we know now as the United States, and also this apartheid nature of Israel and the attempts to try to erase Palestinians' connection to the land. And it's fascinating. I was reading a book recently by Noor Masala called The 4,000 Year History of Palestine. And he really gets really deep into how the town names were changed. And as you mentioned, all of Groves were burned, and all of these different processes that were meticulously implemented to do just that, to erase the connection, to sever the connection from the land, as you said. And you also talked about

solidarity and internationalism. And I think one of the things that I wanted to ask you both about and maybe Crystal, we could begin with you on this one. If you can talk about how the Palestinian struggle is connected to the struggle of indigenous people here in, you know, what we know is North America and why it's important to make that connection. I think that is a podcast in itself as well. I've spent a good portion of probably the last five, six years of my life really going into all of the comparisons of our peoples and the relationship of our peoples and deepening that relationship and understanding how the settler colonial process parallels but also differs right and so really looking at that and so in my mind you know the way that I carry it is um it's really like on on like the spiritual

and cultural plane is like where I hold things like Like, yes, I hold it, hold our relationship to Palestinians in a political context, obviously, because we are political beings, like from the moment we're born until our death, like we are held as a political being. And we have to continue to move in that way as well and resist and organize. But also, you know, my relationship and my connection to Palestine was was in a cultural and spiritual context when I first was introduced deeply and built that relationship. And that was when I was introduced prior to Standing Rock, but at Standing Rock, Palestinians organized and showed up without having to be asked.

And that was really later what I learned of just as Palestinians being taught from a very young age that you resist where you are, on whoever's lands, wherever you are, you continue to resist and continue to move until you get to go home, right? Until you get to go back to your lands to continue that struggle and that fight. But I think that when we were there,

I sat on a webinar that was organized and there was a presentation about the olive tree and the burnings of the olive tree and just witnessing that was a really emotional thing for me. And that like, it hit me really hard because that was the same thing that happened with our buffalo. You know, we have those deep relationships and all of our teachings about who we are and how we are supposed to be on this earth and how we are supposed to be as human beings on this earth come from our teachings around to be as human beings on this earth come from our teachings around the buffalo and around you know many other elements as well but

primarily around the buffalo is like you know when you come to hardship and there's hard things happening buffalo are the only animals on earth that turn and face towards these storms and walk straight through and that is the way that we are taught to be as people is when you come to hard times and tough things in life, you face that storm and you walk straight through it. There's all of the things that we utilize when we hunted buffalo, right? Like they were at the center of our economy. They were at the center of how we feed ourselves,

of how we care for our children, even having clothing, of being able to have utensils to feed ourselves. Like all of these things came from that and these teachings. our children, even having clothing, of being able to have utensils to feed ourselves, like all of these things came from that and these teachings. And so it was like this, not only this like material usage, but it was also the spiritual teachings and the cultural teachings that came along with it. And I, when I heard about the olive trees and seeing these pictures of that, that was the exact same thing that was happening is like they knew if they destroyed the buffalo, which they did, millions and millions of the wild buffalo on the Great Plains were massacred and killed and none of their their body or anything was utilized.

They were just left to rot. And you reference that to pictures that you can see of like these huge mountains of buffalo skulls that are piled up, right? And that was strategic. That was done specifically because they knew if they could kill our economy and they could kill our connection and our relationship to the buffalo and our ability to feed ourselves and take care of ourselves and spiritually our relationship to our relative, the buffalo, they knew that it would disconnect us further from the land and it would further their project, right? And I viewed that very much the same of what

was happening with the olive tree. They do that intentionally. They know if they destroy these things that it disconnects us, right? And then if they further disconnect us, then they're able to drive larger wedges in there and further their colonial states, right? And build over the top of that. And so for me, that's where the relationship started was on that level of understanding viscerally what it means to lose those types of things in our lives, in the spiritual and cultural hit that that is on our people and how deep that wound goes. And so that was really my connection. And then from that point, you know, starting to make all of the connections

between the militarization and between the massacres, between the genocides, the nuclear biological chemical warfare that they use on us, being able to look at like national parks, you know, in the way that national parks here in the so-called US were strategically created to remove us from those lands. And then the propaganda started of like, that was created to keep these lands pristine and untouched, right?

And save them for the future generations. But the only reason those lands look like that is because we tended and cared for that land and we lived on that land since time immemorial, right? And that those were strategic ways to remove us from the land. And that actually like put it into law to keep us from that land, right? And that those were strategic ways to remove us from the land and that actually like put it into law to keep us from that land, right? And from being able to go onto that land. And we see that happening in Palestine too, right? Of like having national parks built over the top of villages, built over the top of communities that were fully thriving,

right? I think there's just so many different elements that are the same, but I think that like the way that we see it as well is just that, you know, our colonizers, they communicate with each other. And so for me, what I'm witnessing and what I'm watching, like, I don't know how many times I've talked to my Palestinian sisters and was like, I feel like I'm like remembering something that I didn't even live through. But my ancestors, my grandparents lived through that and told me these stories and those stories were passed down. And so now I feel like I'm remembering something or that I'm having a memory of all of these things that I'm watching over social media and whatnot

and on the news that I never even lived through, but my ancestors lived through that. But what we're seeing happening and play out in Palestine is a refined version, right? They couldn't get rid of us. My people still exist here. We are still surviving and we still have relationship to our land.

And so what we're seeing also is like more extreme even than what my people experienced because it didn't work, right? It didn't eradicate us. We're still here. And so what I'm seeing is like a more refined version of settler colonialism and of genocide, right? Because it wasn't effective on us in the way that they had hoped it would be. The last thing I'll name is that like the boarding schools. And so for us, you know, one of the most singular, devastating and most effective tools of settler colonialism

was the boarding school system for us. And the way that you remove and eradicate a people is by you take their future. And our children are our future and that's how we survive. And so there was entire generations of our people that when they were supposed to be in our communities and in our villages, learning how to be a relative, learning how to be a daughter, a son, a sister, a wife,

a child, a grandparent, a community member, right? They were learning rape, they were learning assault, they were learning violence, they were learning shame and guilt and these things. And when and if they survived that and they went home, that is what they knew. That is all they knew. They didn't know how to be in their own communities. And that has rocked every single Native nation in the so-called United States.

And it's something that we still are feeling the effects of to this day with my generation and the current generations and we're still trying to heal from. It has devastated our languages, it's devastated our cultural practices, it's devastated our relationship to the land, it's even gotten us to the point where we think buying into these colonial systems is the way that's gonna save us and that's gonna lead to our sovereignty and so now it's to the point that we do it to ourselves. They don't even have to be in our communities doing these things to us

because we're doing it to ourselves now. And that's the phase of settler colonialism that we're in. And so I think that's something that I sit with and look at in terms of the way that I see things playing out in Palestine is like how they're going about things as well, parallels, but there's also differences, right, in refinement in more strategic ways that they're moving now to actually eradicate, right, to actually make sure that people don't exist there. Yeah, and that's something I sit with every day, I think, is reflecting on these memories that aren't my own, and looking at the fact that this is happening in real time.

Yeah, but those are some of the things that I see in relationship to both of our struggles. Like Crystal said, there's like, there's just so much to unpack about the relationship between the two. And I think it goes beyond just solidarity,arity often has like a very, I don't think it does it justice because there are so many material connections between the two and spiritual connections like Crystal was saying that I think solidarity does not encapsulate fully. I want to share like a particular moment where I fully grasped the similarities between the indigenous struggle in the US and the Palestinian struggle against other colonialism. It was in college where I was taking some US history course.

And we were reading about the Trail of Tears. And there is this one quote that we read, and I'm going to read it now. I remember when I first read it I was just overcome with emotion because I realized I felt like I was reading about Palestine. Like you could put this in a book that was about Palestine and that was describing the NECBA or any of the subsequent ethnic cleansing campaigns and I wouldn't bat an eye. I wouldn't think oh wait this isn't that. And the quote was from a pamphlet from 1830

that was printed by the Cherokee Nation. And it read, were the country to which we are urged much better than it is represented to be, and were it free from the objections which we have made to it, still it is not the land of our birth nor of our affection. It contains neither the scenes of our childhood nor the graves of our birth nor of our affection. It contains neither the scenes of our childhood nor the graves of our fathers."

And it was about the Trail of Tears and the forced expulsion and removal. And when you read this, you can't not think about Palestine. I mean, it's exactly the same thing. And that was really powerful for me and sort of grounded this shared experience. There are differences, but so much of it is similar. And it's actually a big part of, I work with an organization called the Adala Justice Project.

And one of the things that we did in 2018, at our core, one of the things we really focus on here in the US is building that struggle with indigenous people here and this the struggle against US settler colonialism. And one of the things we put forward is you know the importance of de-exceptionalizing what's happening in Palestine. This is not the first time that the settler colonial project has existed and Israel's methods are not being used for the first time. They are unique in some ways and they are not unique in many others. And the US is the biggest, most glaring example of that.

And of course, we made sure to say that de-exceptionalizing Palestine doesn't mean that we should lower its ranks or think about it as like here is like the tiers of oppression, but instead that what that means is if you stand against racism if you stand for indigenous sovereignty here it means you stand with Palestine there's no but it's only and and that that's really really important for us to understand in the Palestine movement and for us to understand here in the US regardless of what struggle you're a part of and in many ways Netanyahu made this point for us when in 2015,

he was giving a speech at Congress and he said, quote, America and Israel, we share a common destiny, the destiny of promised lands that cherish freedom and offer hope, end quote. And if it weren't so violent and disgusting, it would be laughable that you could say that in front of Congress in 2015. But that's the reality. And I think that just really emphasizes and underscores this relationship between the U.S. and Israel and part of why they continue to support each other, whether it's financially or diplomatically, politically, etc. And I think the joint struggle and the relationship between Indigenous movements in the U.S.

and the Palestinian struggle are so important that even Israel has recognized the danger that that sets to them and their project. Because Israel goes to great lengths to try to say, no, we're the Indigenous ones, and to use that term intentionally, and to try to build alliances and relationships with various tribal authorities here in the US, whether that's over weapons or providing certain services to Native veterans, et cetera. And I think that's proof of why this joint struggle is so important and that transnational

solidarity is so key and is so powerful beyond this, beyond solidarity, that there's like a material power to understanding this as a joint struggle. And I think it's also, you know, we always say this, Adala, and not just Adala, just project. I think most of the Palestine movement, Fannie Lou Hammers, quote, nobody's free until everybody's free. And I think this joint struggle between indigenous people here and Palestinians is like a very good example of that, that we need each other to be free of both

of these violent projects of both of these oppressive colonial regimes. And then it won't be over until we are all free. Oh yeah. Yeah. Thank you both so much for that. And Crystal, what a really beautiful teaching about the buffalo and such a profound connection between the olive tree and the buffalo.

I think for for me, one of the most important early connections was the connection between Zionism, which Sumaya and I have spoken about on previous episodes and Manifest Destiny, both as these colonial ideologies. And I feel like they both inform each other. And understanding how Zionism is connected to Manifest Destiny gives profound insight

into what's happening in Palestine and also a window into what took place and is continuing to take place with indigenous people here in North America and all across the planet really. So yeah, I really also appreciate Sumaya you bringing up and underscoring those material connections with what's happening in Palestine and the struggle here. I'd also maybe like to add too that it might seem like somewhat more of a nebulous connection because it's abstracted through layers and layers and layers in many cases. But you know, I think although it's still very deeply grounded in material reality is that there are the same structures and the same processes of monopoly capitalism, imperialism, of settler colonialism. Like these processes are all interrelated

and the impression and repression of indigenous people here in the US is done by the exact literal same forces that are funding and driving the genocide in Palestine with the same money and the same drive for ultimately geopolitical hegemony. I just wanted to add something that Crystal talked about standing rock. I visited standing rock during the encampment

and we were there for a week and we overlapped with when the native veterans came to protect the land and to stand with the encampment. And one thing I remember, I was really powerful, I've never been to Palestine. My family's not allowed back. We never got the proper documentation

to be able to go back or even visit. And when I was at Standing Rock, I remember feeling like this is, this is the closest I'm getting to defending my land, that this is my struggle too. And it was, I'm getting emotional defending my land, that this is my struggle too. And it was, I'm getting emotional even just thinking about it now. It was so powerful. And it was sort of a glimpse into how it's, it's not about, oh, this is something that happened hundreds of years ago, that this is happening now.

That it's still happening. And that it is as much my struggle as it is Crystal's struggle and vice versa when we think about Palestine and being there at Standing Rock, staying in those tents, going to Facebook Hill to send the tweets about, you know, like, as Palestinians we're here, et cetera, et cetera, that that was such an important part of what it means to show up and such an important part of what it means to fight for Palestinian liberation too. You're listening to an Upstream Conversation with Sumaya Awad and Crystal Tubals. We'll be right back. So The story is the mirror and the old building The O' you, who are the Al-Mukah, Ya Madinah Al-Jareemah Music Al Qisab Al Miraz Wal Qomya Al Qadima Khabzun ala ma'idati d-dayumna Fadadkhuliladmigatulghiwaad Waldadkhulilhanajirussaminad

In the hour of dawn, your baths are who saw the world through the eyes of the world. That was Khobz by Issam Hajjali, whose songs feature lyrics from the Palestinian revolutionary poet Sami al-Qasim. We included the lyrics to this particular track in the show notes. Now back to our conversation with Crystal Tubalss and Samea Awad. One thing that I'd be really interested in hearing your thoughts on is there's this understanding among many of us that Israel does not have the right to exist, right? Which I personally think is correct. It doesn't.

But something we hear as a response to that for many Zionists is to respond to that question with, well, in that case, do you think that the United States doesn't have a right to exist? And my answer to that is also, of course, no. But not only do states not have a right to exist, but especially not those two states. But yeah, I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this. Do you think that the United States has a quote, right to exist? And how does this relate to Israel's so-called right to exist?

Yeah, for me, no. Neither Israel or the US has a right to exist. Both are illegal occupiers on our lands, you know? And I think that they know that, you know, and I think that that's why they fight so hard to control propaganda and control the media and to control these stories. And for me, and Smeah, you know, alluded,

or named this earlier, just like, you know, how intertwined our freedom is and how our liberation is and our sovereignty is, is that for me, because my people are like, close to over 500 years into settler colonization, right, like we're over 500 years into this settler colonial state. That's where we are, you know. And so for me, watching what's happening in Palestine is like, how many years is that since 1948, You know? And so for me, that's a very small amount of time.

And so that means that it is still very much possible and that much more possible for Palestinians to return home and to reclaim their lands, right? And to have that relationship. And when they do that, that means I'm that much closer to reclaiming my sovereignty and reclaiming that in these lands. Right. And I view like the Hawaiian kingdom in the same way. Right. Is that there there's so many years along in being a so-called US state. Right. And so that means that they're that much closer to actually reattaining their sovereignty. And when they do that, that moves me that much closer to my sovereignty, right? And that's the way that I hold it and the way that I look at it is like, because my people are this far along in this process, right? Is that

these other struggles for sovereignty move me closer towards my sovereignty, right? But I think that, yeah, like neither of them have a right to exist. And we know that they know that as well. And that's why they control the media, as I mentioned, but also even when you look at like what's happening at the United Nations, it was actually Palestinians when when native folks first started to organize and go to Geneva, go to Switzerland, go to the United Nations, it was Palestinians who actually showed us the ropes when we got there, who showed us how to maneuver through that system, right? They were there. And it was interesting because when I look at that and I look back at like the UNDRIP, right, the United Nations Declaration

on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, when the first version of the UNDRIP was drafted by Indigenous Peoples globally, and there was consensus on the language that went into that, it had teeth. It actually had the right for redress in there. But when the UN Subcommittee on Human Rights approved that, the United States didn't like that and actually eradicated that whole council or eradicated the commission on human rights altogether. They just got rid of it. And then they turned around and created the Human Rights Council at the UN, right? A different body, but with a similar name. And that body is what presented what we now know as the UNDRIP,

right? The Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People, which that language has no teeth whatsoever in it, right? And so had the original version been put forth and been approved, Native people in the so-called U.S. would have been allowed the right to redress and to reclaim our lands, which means that the so-called United States would be an illegal occupying force by international law, right? Not to say that would have been enforced either, but just to say that what we're seeing play out right now at the United Nations and the demand for a ceasefire, a permanent ceasefire in the United States being the singular nation state that keeps vetoing that is just

we've we've experienced that already. My people have gone through that. We know what they do. They just you know we're never going to win in their battlefields. One of my mentors, Tupac Acosta, he passed away recently and the singular most important thing he taught me was that we have to define our own battlefields, because we will always lose on their battlefields. They will always change the rules. They will always change the guidelines. They will always change it up on us. And I'm still exploring what that means. But I do think that what we're seeing and what we're witnessing with Palestinian resistance is the start of redefining what these battlefields look like and how we resist and what decolonization actually requires

of us, right? And so all of that I know is like a little bit removed from the question, but I think also speaks to the fact that these occupiers, these illegal occupiers, know that they are illegal occupiers and they are willing to do whatever it takes to make sure that other nation states don't view them as such, right, and to do whatever it takes to completely eliminate us and eradicate us so that way they can exist. But the one thing that I think seems circulating was that we know that they are not Indigenous to these lands and that they are not indigenous to these lands and that they are not original to these lands because no one that has relationship to land would be doing what Israel is doing to that land. And no one that has

true relationship to land would do what the so-called US is doing to our lands. They would not do it. It would not happen. You know you're a colonizer. You know you are illegal. You know you do not have relationship to that land when you are capable of destroying it the way that we are witnessing. And so just to add that piece in there is that they know that and neither of them have the right to exist, especially when the right to exist means

eradicating an entire group of people and the land together. Just reminded me of Joe Biden during his State of the Union speech using the word illegals and just how just disgustingly ironic that is coming from his mouth. Sumaya, is there anything you'd like to share or reflect? Yeah, I mean, just jumping off where Crystal left off about the point of like, if they had a relationship to land, this is not how they would treat it. Israel just, it's almost like they're trying to prove they don't have a relationship to the land with how they treat it.

Whether that's with the Raze and the genocide that's unfolding and the fact that they have completely annihilated an entire strip of land and have destroyed it ecologically in every way possible is proof of that or that you know one of the largest organizations the Jewish National Fund which I mentioned earlier and which frankly mostly operates here in the US raising funds plant a tree in Israel give money to plant a tree this This greenwashing, when in fact all these trees are actively ruining the native environment, are ruining, are destroying the ecological landscape.

75% of the forests that the Jewish National Fund has planted cover dozens and dozens of Palestinian villages that had been destroyed in 1948 and are actively destroying the landscape, the ecology, because they're non-native species. They're like trees from Switzerland. What are they doing in the Mediterranean? To go back to your original question about the right to exist, I mean, I don't think any state has

the right to exist. States don't have rights. People have rights. People are the ones that have rights. And this idea that we need to talk about abstract formations that have only existed for a couple hundred years, right, this idea of a nation state, is absurd to talk about the rights of these concepts of these abstract terms when there are literal human beings being eviscerated, being wiped off the face of the planet in the most brutal, violent ways.

The question is just not, when people ask a decision to have a right to exist, it's just not grounded in any reality and really reflects the fact that we're not seen as human. We're not seen as worthy, legitimate beings for our livelihood to be sort of erased and pushed aside in order to talk about this abstract state and these abstract borders that are drawn up randomly like literally randomly and that change so frequently and that have only existed for a limited amount of time We have all existed for generations and generations and generations

and I think also that this goes back to the concept of the nation state and that the entirety of it, and I know I said this before, but I'm going to repeat myself, is just based on exclusivity, is based on ethnic cleansing and on supremacy, whether that's white supremacy in the US or Jewish supremacy in Israel, and that that's what it's grounded in. And so to talk about the right for any supremacist state to exist is just absurd. Like, of course not. Of course they don't have the right to exist as a supremacist state. That should be a no-brainer to any of us. And when we start to think about it on terms that aren't about Palestinians or indigenous people in the U.S., people are like,

oh, of course I would never let something like this happen. But what it's about are people. It's like, oh, well, here are all the excuses, violence, this and that, safety, protection answer. Thank you. I believe it was Ali Abunimah from the Electronic Intifada who said that the Western settler colonies see Israel as a sort of an incomplete settler colony, pointing to this idea that in the United States, for example, the genocide against the indigenous population has reached a degree, which it hasn't yet really in Palestine. I'm wondering if you'd agree with that and if there's anything that you'd like to add or underscore or push back against that claim from your perspective. And then also, I'm curious how you would relate the experience, or the position rather, of settlers in both the United States and in Israel.

As a settler, personally, I feel like the only ethical way to live in the United States is to devote my life basically to dismantling the United States and fighting for socialist revolution. And of course, obviously, an integral part of that is land back. And so maybe by way of closing out, if there's anything that you'd like to add or reflect on some of those thoughts that I just shared, and then I would love it if you could maybe talk about what a decolonized United States would look like and what would be the role of settlers in a decolonized United States and how we could be in right relationship. It's hard to know where to start. Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing that came to mind when you asked about the differences between like this, the settlers is that the reality is most of the settlers in Palestine come from the United

States and Europe. Like when you think about the last five years in particular, it's sort of like the examples that sort of made it into the headlines in the US. So I'm thinking Sheikh Jarrah in 2021, when Palestinian families in Sheikh Jarrah in Jerusalem were being forced out to make way for settlers to come in and quite literally take over their homes. And in one of those cases, this settler was from Brooklyn, this guy from Brooklyn that decided I have a right to this home in Jerusalem and simply came in and took it over. And I think there's something interesting in that these settlers are coming into Palestine, quite literally the same ones that have for like generations before them, their grandfathers, their great grandfathers that were part of the settlement in the United States on Turtle

Island. Obviously, that's not the case for everyone. You know, there are waves of this. But I think that's one thing telling about like this idea. And you mentioned this, Robbie, of like the relationship between manifest destiny and Zionism, this idea that, yes, we have this integral inherited right to this land, regardless of what the facts on the ground are. And this like very deep, not just supremacist, but like religious fanaticism, frankly, that comes with it, right?

Like Zionism as a political ideology, and the way that it uses Judaism to cover this political ideology in order to enact this settler colonial project. And then the same thing here on Turtle Island with the Christian fanaticism, that allowed them to believe, yes, this is our destiny. Yes, this is our land now. Yes, this is our right. And that carries on to today when you think about MAGA and Trump and everything

that that represents and how it manifests itself in the terrain, the political terrain today in the United States. Thank you for that. And yeah, Crystal. Yeah, I think it's accurate in looking at I also, but I also would argue that, like, it's also not complete here in the so-called US either. Right. But that we're just farther along in this process. But the fact that, like, it is now normalized that we don't exist anymore. Right. Like you go to schools and history books and things like that, like we're completely erased out of this, right? And only since like the 70s with the American Indian movement and the resistance that has happened since that point in like the different kind of like,

yeah, like waves of resistance that we've had has it really become this thing of like, oh, Native people still live here, like they still exist. And Standing Rock was another one of those like big flash points and movement moments where people realize that we still exist. Right. But in general, the majority of the United States population doesn't know that we exist. Right. Like we are an invisible people on our own lands and that's by design. Right. But I would say that like there is still resistance. It's just,'s just, we're farther along in this piece. And I mentioned it earlier of just like the colonization where we're at in that process is that we have internalized

that many people have internalized it. And so now people are of the belief that, we can reform our way to sovereignty. We can vote our way to sovereignty. We can actually like work within the system to attain our sovereignty or their definition and understanding of sovereignty is that it's through, you know, our tribal governments,

which is from the Indian Reorganization Act, which were imposed governments on us, right? Those are not our traditional forms of governing ourselves. It was something that was imposed on us, but people are now of the belief because we've been in this for so long and we've internalized it to this point that like, that that is what sovereignty is,

is these tribal governments that are through the Indian Reorganization Act, which is not true in my mind. And I think our resistance has shifted from resisting the settler colonial state and resisting settler colonization to resisting into protecting the land. And I think that that's just an indication of like how far along we are in this settler colonial project, but I wouldn't say that it's complete either. Otherwise people like myself wouldn't exist

because I actually don't think that this governance system should exist at all, right? Like I don't think, I think the US is an illegal occupier. I don't think that this form of governance should continue to exist. And I don't, and I think that we need to dismantle it and replace it with something that works for peoples, all peoples, right? I'm also not of the belief that like we just send everyone home, right? Like that's also

not a realistic thing that I think is possible. But what I do think is that through land back, the non watered down version of land back is sovereignty is truly us reclaiming autonomy, reclaiming our right to have the say over our own bodies, over our land, over our own peoples, right, over our nations that pre-date colonization, right. We were fully thriving economies and societies pre-colonization, but what does that look like in today's time? To maintain those values, those teachings, that spirituality, the cultural grounding in the relationship to the land in today, right? And for me, you know, I am an abolitionist. I don't believe in this. And so for me, you know, I think land back means reclaiming that right and sovereignty, right? It means us, instead of like you going down to, you know, the bank to get a loan or going to a private owner

to buy land or going to the federal government to access land or all of these things, you come to me and my people. You have a relationship with us and you have a conversation with us about what our relationship together collectively is going to look like to this land, right? And that it's about proximity.

And so rather than folks going to these different, you know, agencies and these different like private banks and all of these people that own quote unquote the land or the state that owns the land or things like that, real estate agencies, that you come to us and that we have the say over that land again, right? And we have reclaimed that relationship to that land. And now you and I have a conversation about what your relationship with us is going to look like to that land, right? And I think that is what for me, land back means. It's not this watered down version of getting land put back into trust that is then turned around and managed

by the federal government through the BIA. That's not sovereignty. That's not land back. Land back is us truly having say over these lands, right? Of really, truly reclaiming that relationship and those values and those principles that we actually got from the land itself. Right. And so for me, that's what I strive towards.

You know, that's what I move towards. I don't believe these systems are going to get us there. I know we have to move within them right now, right, because we there's material needs, there's material things, and impacts on our peoples. And so we move the best we can in that. But at the end of the day, that sovereignty and like dismantling of these systems, these colonial systems is always my end goal. Always, always.

And I may not see that in my lifetime. And that's a fact that I accept and I know that, but I will do everything in my power while I'm here on this earth to move us in that direction. And so for me, you know, looking at like the differences in an incomplete state, that's the conversation that I want to have. That's the thing I support with Palestinians is like, seeing that colonization is a violent and horrific process. And so it's like, to undo that, what do we think decolonization is? Like, it's not just this buzzword. It's not just this like, you know,

it means, you know, this metaphorical thing. It's real, it's a practical thing. It's a material thing of reclaiming access to our lands. Right? And that requires resistance. That requires upholding our North Star, our end goal. That requires acknowledging that these systems should not exist anymore.

And thinking about that as a real tangible thing, as opposed to this metaphorical decolonization buzzword, that the way that it's being used now, right? And so I think, yeah, like that's what comes up in my mind when I think about an incomplete settler colonial state, right, is like also it is not complete here in the so-called U.S. We're just farther along in this process, but I think though the thing I know about that and why it's so important for us to continue to have this

relationship and to look at each other as relatives is because we know what it's like to survive this far into it. We know what that looks like, we know what it takes in that, yeah, like we have to do everything we can to make sure Palestinians don't get here and get to this point to have to go through these pieces that we're going through now. And to be over 500 plus years into this. And for me, that's, yeah, that's the commitment, right? Like that's the work.

And that moves me farther to my sovereignty when we can support and move Palestinians to their sovereignty. Yeah, I think that is, like as Palestinians, that is exactly what we're trying to do. And to make sure that this doesn't continue, this genocide is not successful in any way, shape or form. And I think that this is the beginning of the end for Israel.

I think Israel is digging its own grave, as Ilan Pappas says. Yeah. You've been listening to an upstream conversation with Crystal Tubals, an Oglala Lakota Northern Cheyenne grassroots organizer, former director of the NDN Collective's Land Back Campaign, and executive director of Honor the Earth, and Sumaya Awad, Palestinian writer, analyst, and socialist organizer. She's the director of strategy and communications at the Adala Justice Project and a contributor to and co-editor, along with Brian Bean, of Palestine, a Socialist Introduction, published by Haymarket Books.

Please check the show notes for links to any of the resources mentioned in this episode. Thank you to Issam Hajjali for the intermission music and to Carolyn Rader for the cover art. Upstream theme music was composed by Robert. Upstream is almost entirely listener funded. We couldn't keep this project going without your support. There are a number of ways in which you can support us financially. You can sign up to be a Patreon subscriber, which will give you access to bonus episodes, at least one a month, but usually more, at patreon.com forward slash upstream podcast.

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