Upstream - Post Capitalist Parenting Pt. 1: Parenting Under Capitalism w/ Toi Smith

Episode Date: February 25, 2025

Capitalism has placed us under many spells that influence and limit what we believe to be normal and natural. Parenting is one intimate site where capitalism’s spell is particularly impactful. Often leaving parents and children to feel especially isolated, alone, and precarious—perfect for keeping working people separated and oppressed and for grooming children into docile workers under capitalism.  To kick off our new series on Post Capitalist Parenting, we’ve invited on Toi Smith, mother of four and a Growth and Impact Strategist. Toi’s work centers on doing life, business, and motherhood differently and collaborating with people who are countercultural, liberatory, and revolutionary. In this conversation, we start to reveal and unlearn what Capitalism has told us about what parenting should look like and what it is for. We deconstruct motherhood under capitalism and explore post capitalist parenting strategies, tools, and resources. And we look at how viewing parenting as a political act can help to empower, connect, and liberate both families and communities. This episode was produced in collaboration with EcoGather, a collapse-responsive co-learning network that hosts free online Weekly EcoGatherings that foster conversation and build community around heterodox economics, collective action, and belonging in an enlivened world. In this collaboration, EcoGather will be hosting gatherings to bring some Upstream episodes to life—this is one of those episodes. We hope you can join the gathering on TK to discuss the topics covered in this episode. Find out more at www.ecogather.ing. Further Resources Toi Smith Loving Black Single Mothers Deconstructing Motherhood The Black Panther Party: A Graphic Novel History By David F. Walker, Illustrated by Marcus Kwame Anderson An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States for Young People By Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz, Adapted by Jean Mendoza and Debbie Reese Winners Take All: The Elite Charade of Changing the World By Anand Giridharadas Ejaculate Responsibly: A Whole New Way to Think About Abortion, By Gabrielle Stanley Blair Cannibal Capitalism: How our System is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet – and What We Can Do About It by Nancy Fraser Feminism for the 99%: A Manifesto by Cinzia Arruzza, Tithi Bhattacharya and Nancy Fraser Black Scare / Red Scare: Theorizing Capitalist Racism in the United States by Charisse Burden-Stelly  A People's Guide to Capitalism: An Introduction to Marxist Economics, By Hadas Thier  Social Reproduction Theory: Remapping Class, Recentering Oppression, Edited by Tithi Bhattacharya Revolutionary Mothering: Love on the Front Lines, Edited by Alexis Pauline Gumbs, China Martens, and Mai’a Williams Related Episodes: Black Scare / Red Scare with Charisse Burden-Stelly A People's Guide to Capitalism with Hadas Thier Feminism for the 99 Percent (Documentary) Cover art: Carolyn Raider Intermission music: "Left Fist Evolution" by Bianca Mikahn Upstream is a labor of love—we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at  upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

This episode of Upstream was produced in collaboration with EcoGather, a collapse-responsive, co-learning network that hosts free, online, weekly eco-gatherings that foster conversation and build community around heterodox economics, collective action, and belonging in an enlivened world. In this collaboration, EcoGather will be hosting gatherings to bring some upstream episodes to life. This is one of those episodes. Find out more, including the date and time for this EcoGathering, in the show notes, or by going to www.eco-gather.ing. I do a lot of work helping people to uproot and unspell from capitalism and

deconstruct motherhood and things like that. And the spells that we are under are like interwoven and interconnected, right? They're the spells of the big systems that we name capitalism, patriarchy, white supremacy, all those things. But I like to help people pull it closer to themselves and see how those things deeply impact our interpersonal lives and our relationships and our relationship with self. And so the spell is like a spell of deep harm and exploitation and violence and not caring

and not caring about ourselves, not caring about our relationships, not caring about mother nature and the natural world. And it's a spell that also tells us that this is how it's supposed to be, this is how it's always been, and that we can't change it and be more collective, more loving, more caring, more communal. You are listening to Upstream.

Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. A show about political economy and society that invites you to unlearn everything you thought you knew about the world around you. I'm Robert Raymond. And I'm Della Duncan.

Capitalism has placed us under many spells that influence and limit what we believe to be normal and natural. And parenting is one intimate site where capitalism's spell is particularly impactful, often leaving parents and children feeling especially isolated, alone, and precarious, perfect for keeping working people separated and oppressed and for grooming children into docile workers under capitalism. To kick off our new series on post-capitalist parenting,

we've invited on Toy Smith, mother of four and a growth and impact strategist. Toy's work centers on doing life, business, and motherhood differently, and collaborating with people who are counter-cultural, liberatory, and revolutionary. In this conversation, we start to reveal and unlearn what capitalism has told us about what parenting should look like and what it's for. We deconstruct motherhood under capitalism and explore post-capitalist parenting strategies, tools, and resources.

And we look at how viewing parenting as a political act can help to empower, connect, and liberate both families and communities. And before we get started, Upstream is almost entirely listener-funded. We could not keep this project going without your support. There are a number of ways in which you can support us financially. You can sign up to be a Patreon subscriber, which will give you access to bi-weekly episodes

ranging from conversations to readings and more. Signing up for Patreon is a great way to make Upstream a weekly show, and it will also give you access to our entire back catalogue of Patreon episodes, along with stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. Sign up and find out more at patreon.com forward slash Upstream Podcast. And if Patreon's not really your thing, you can also make a tax-deductible recurring or one-time donation on our website, upstreampodcast.org forward slash support.

Through your support, you'll be helping us to keep Upstream sustainable and helping to keep this whole project going. Socialist political education podcasts are not easy to fund. So thank you in advance for the crucial support. And now here's Della in conversation with Toy Smith. ["In Conversation with Toy Smith"] All right, welcome to Upstream. So happy to be in conversation with you. May we start with an introduction from you? How might you introduce yourself? Yes, my name is Toy Smith and I always struggle with intro, so we'll see how this flows out.

But my name is Toy Smith. I am a mother, a creator, a facilitator, a lover. I work at the intersections of unspelling and truth telling. And a lot of my work is found online. I facilitate a lot of study groups that help to change people's perspectives on how we're living. Thank you. And thank you for the work that you do. And you know, this show is called Upstream based on this metaphor of going upstream to the root causes. And so to begin, I'm curious, when you feel into what's happening right now in this time on this earth, what is it that's breaking your heart? And what is it you

find when you go upstream from that heartbreak? So much I feel like is heartbreaking right now. But when I think about this question in particular, I really think about just how many people, many of us are under a spell. Like meaning that we have been told such a lie in terms of the ways that the world works and that things operate and how we live. And so many people are under this spell. And so that breaks my heart, truly.

Can you say more about the spell that we're under? And I love that you called yourself, you said someone who breaks spells or… Yes, helping to break spells. You know, I do a lot of work helping people to uproot and unspell from capitalism and deconstruct motherhood and things like that. And the spells that we are under are like interwoven and interconnected, right? They're the spells of the big systems that we name, capitalism, patriarchy, white supremacy, all those things. But I like to help people pull it closer to themselves

and see how those things deeply impact our interpersonal lives and our relationships and our relationship with self. And so the spell is like a spell of deep harm and exploitation and violence and not caring and not caring about ourselves, not caring about our relationships, not caring about mother nature in the natural world. And it's a spell that also tells us that this is how it's supposed to be. This is how it's always been and that we can't change it and be more collective, more loving, more caring, more communal.

Yeah, I can totally resonate with that. That sense of needing to unlearn, needing to challenge assumptions around mainstream economic thinking, what we've been told to believe is true, that lack of care, and then also the decolonizing. You know, I hear that as well. And yeah, I really am happy to have this conversation with you, particularly for your work around breaking those spells of capitalism and also motherhood or parenting. So maybe to just start, you know, you mentioned that you are a parent, a mother,

that's part of your identity. How would you describe your journey or your connection with parenting and the types of parenting experiences that you've had in your life? Yeah, so I always say, motherhood is one of the things that has radicalized me, particularly my version of motherhood. I am a black single mother of four sons, they are all teenagers. Now my oldest is almost 20. I have twins who are 16 and my

youngest is 13. And they all have different fathers. So I'm a Black single mother of four Black sons in the U.S. by three different men. And that's really important for me to name, particularly for Black women and Black single mothers to hear, because we have been used, particularly Black single mothers, as a stereotype of what not to be and what not to do. And we have been the scapegoat for a lot of harm in the US. And so I reclaim that and use it as like, this is my social location.

This is what has politicized and radicalized me. And so that is where I start my deconstructing motherhood comes from is from that social location. So you mentioned that you do facilitation of groups and writing and speaking. And one of the things that you've written is about the different types of single moms. So this essay that I'm referring to is titled, there are two different types of single moms. So this essay that I'm referring to is titled, There are Two Different Types of Single Moms. And you start the essay by saying, not all single mothers are created equal. And you speak about two different types of single moms, this idea of the co-op mom and the mad mom or the M-A-D mom, which stands for mom and dad. And the differentiation that you share is

that the co-op mom has support. It has support either from the co-parent, even if they're not together in a relationship, they still have that support, or from community. And what the effect of that is, you write that the co-op mom is a little less stressed. She's a lot more carefree and able to move in the world with more energy. But then, in comparison, you write about the M.A.D. mom or the mad mom, which you write is normally a quiet sufferer. She wants a better life for her and her child, but finds the climb a little steep since she alone is carrying the load of what is meant for two. And so can you talk a little bit more about these two types of single mom? So a co-op mom is someone who basically has support, who does things, think of a co-op in the economic sense.

It's people who are making decisions together for the good of an organization, a company idea or something, right? It's not just one person doing it all. The co-op model is all of us together doing this thing. And that's what I think of when I think of like parenting in that way, right? Mad Mom is basically like like you're by yourself.

You're doing it alone. Even though you didn't create this life alone, you are the person who is holding it, holding all of it, right? The decisions, the actual labor, the grief, the love, those are the distinctions between the two. And you've written a lot and held groups around the family and marriage and parenting and these differentiations. And so one of the things that you've written is that marriage and the nuclear family were sold to us as being about love, care and belonging, when actually it's the perfect arrangement to uphold and support capitalism. Can you say more about this and also the spell

that we're under and that we need to unlearn? Yeah, as someone who does not exist in the nuclear family, right, I am a single mother. Also, it didn't really come from a nuclear family. My mom was a single mom and I was raised in an intergenerational home with my grandparents and cousins. My mom was married for a while, but it was never really a stable thing. And so when I started becoming a mother, and particularly after my last son was born, and he's 13, and that relationship crumbled after we were trying

to kind of form a nuclear family, and it crumbled and I had to move back in with my mom, I started to really look at what I was trying to do and why. Why was I trying to be with this one person, build this nuclear family, and all of the weight that comes with it? And what came from that kind of deconstructing was like, oh, because society told me that that's what you do as a good woman, as a good person,

is that you form a family in this way. And what happens inside the nuclear family is it takes us outside of the broader community, the broader collective, because all you care about or all you can care about is a reproduction of your family, your little unit, and all the things you can consume. So if you have a block full of nuclear families that don't talk to each other, that don't know each other, but they're under the thumb of capitalism and under the grind, like you're all consuming the same things that you could possibly be sharing. You're not talking about the harms that most of us are all experiencing,

some level of the same kind of harm. So we all think it's us. We all think it's our little nuclear family that is going through this thing that are having hard times when mostly it's everyone. So the nuclear family makes it so we become these little consumer units So the nuclear family makes it so we become these little consumer units that have to buy our own little things that are isolated from the world and that think our problems are only our problems instead of the broader collective. So it's just this perfect design to keep us all kind of churning, internalizing and blaming ourselves for the pain that we're under. internalizing and blaming ourselves for the pain that we're under. Yeah, I can really hear the way that capitalism really individualizes us and separates us and that the nuclear family is one manifestation of that. And then yeah, that's turning us into consumer items that must have one of everything, right, and not share and be collaborative and be in community with one another.

And then that important point you add about also individualizing our pain and suffering. That if we're feeling alienation or extraction or exploitation or even financial hardship or difficulty or loneliness, that that must be our problem. We're not working hard enough or there's something that's fault with us instead of the systems that are isolating and individuating us. And you know, you talked about how becoming a mother radicalized you. And I also know that you write, mothering is political. So tell us a little bit about that because that may not be everyone's experience that becoming a parent or a mother radicalizes

them. So what was your own journey with that? And how might we reclaim or reframe mothering as political? I mean, I want to name I didn't start out 20 years ago almost and have my first son, I was in my early 20s, 21. I didn't start out thinking like I'm going to be political and my mothering, that was not the thing at all. It came through a lot of pain and a lot of like abandonment through my mothering experience and isolation that at first I was internalizing like these were choices that I made so I have to lie in this bed of like all the things. And once I started really unpacking things, I was like, no, like this is a collective problem. This isn't just my problem, right? Again, if you go upstream, I can look and see like this doesn't begin and end with me.

And so I really started to see and understand how I raise my sons and how they think about themselves and how they are in the world as deeply political, right? Because mothering, parenting, raising the next generation, socializing humans, you're socializing them into an ideology, to a paradigm, to believe certain things, to uphold certain beliefs. So you can go whichever way you want with that. You can go with dominant culture and really have them believe

that their life's plan is to be here and be a worker, that they need to always uphold authority. And what happens in the home is that we become the first like bosses and authority figures of our children. And if we don't unpack that, we teach them to just always, always be giving themselves up to authority. And for black children, I feel like it's really important for my sons, for Black boys, to really understand what that means when they're going into institutions

such as schools. And where I live, it's predominantly like white schools with white teachers, I should say, and what that means and how they have to look at that. And so when I say mothering is political, it's how are we socializing our children, A, and what are we teaching them to believe about themselves, about the world, about their power, and how they can move with that power, right? And how are we disciplining them

to either collude with the systems or be, you know, in opposition to the systems in the ways that we can? And how are we giving them, you know, the voice? Because they learn with us first what they can challenge and what's acceptable and how to ask for their needs. And we have a choice. We can just be the authority figure that's like, no, listen to me. You don't get to ask me questions. You don't get to challenge me about anything.

I am the end all be all. And then when you do that, what happens? They go out into the world and they either just really succumb to authority figures or they're really, they don't know how to express themselves. And so when I say it's political, it's that we have a duty and an opportunity and a responsibility, honestly, to if you are someone who believes in a version of the

future or the version of the world now, where more people have sovereignty, autonomy, and are able to feel their body, feel their feelings and have a voice, particularly if you are of the global majority, then how you parent and raise your children and how the voice they can have with you as their first authority figure is deeply important and political. Yes, I really hear that. The responsibility of being, you know, the first agent of socialization, right? And it's, of course, you know, just to note, we're expanding not just biological parenting, but also not just mothering. Like, if any of us have children in our lives,

like that responsibility, and what are the things that we're teaching even subconsciously? And I really hear you around if our mainstream dominant economic system is one of bosses, right? And that is like the core element of capitalism, right? The differentiation between the bosses and the workers or the capitalists and the workers. To socialize that, we socialize that some have power and some do not. Some have agency and voice and some do not. Some people's hours and labor is worth more than others. Exploitation is not just possible but normalized, right? And yeah, how are we instilling that in children? I'm wondering, do you have an example with any of your children where maybe they asked a question and you had a choice of whether to tell them, you know, you can't ask that, I'm the boss,

or you provided that space and you explored that question with them. Like, does anything come to mind? I mean, I will say raising your kids to have more autonomy and to challenge you is not for the faint of heart because they are, my kids are constantly asking me questions or being like, well you said this but you did this, like that doesn't seem in alignment. And I will say like, I get a lot of questions but a question doesn't come to mind but a practice does. So I give my sons wellness days. So they can tell me like, my sons call me by my first name, they call me toy, they don't call me mom, and some people people take issue with that But it's just a way that we kind of relate especially as they've been growing up. And so they'll tell me like Toy, I don't feel like going to school tomorrow. I'm gonna take a wellness day So they get one wellness day a month and for me what that is is allowing them to

Reclaim and be in charge of their time Because we know capitalism takes our time and kids are under our thumbs of our time. They hardly get any say so around what their time looks like, particularly when they enter the schooling years, right? They're in school or they're doing after school sports. They're doing chores. They can't tell you that they don't want to do the thing, you know, because they're under your time. And so for me, I was like, how do I start to teach them that even when they become workers and they start working and get a job, that they can take their sick time,

that they can take their vacation time, that they have this experience of being able to, as young adults, have a say so. So that is a practice I started around, you get one day a month. And if there's more days that you need, we talk about that, but they know right off top, they'll be like, okay, it's about to be February. They'll look at the calendar and they'll say like, oh, tomorrow I'm gonna take a wellness day

because this and this, or just they'll wake up and I don't feel like going. And so I don't force them to have to explain to me, why are you taking this wellness day? All right, I trust you, you trust you. And so you get to do that. Wow. Yeah, I can really hear that. And, and the pressure that we put on ourselves to continue working when we're not feeling it. And also just that, that you don't have to explain yourself, like you're not asking them to explain themselves, that they get that autonomy and the permission for them to feel feelings, whatever they are, and to advocate for

themselves in that practice of sovereignty. That's a great example. Thank you. So I know that some of the ways that you describe yourself are countercultural, a womanist, a liberationist, anti-capitalist, a revolutionary. And these are all things that are really doing that deconstructing or unlearning around how socialization under capitalism happens. So, you know, how would these orientations influence your parenting? You know, and maybe you've already touched on them a little bit, but going from, you know, not necessarily a politicized parent to one who's politicized, like how do these orientations show up for you? I think they show up in all the ways. And they show up in how I hold myself as a mother, right? Because in our culture, what happens when you become a mother is that it's

supposed to be the thing that's all consuming of you, that you're supposed to lose your identity to motherhood and not have anything outside of that, be anything outside of that. And the culture of mothering says that if you are a person outside of mothering, you travel, have things outside of it, that you are wrong, that you are not doing the thing you are supposed to do. You chose to have a child and your life should be absorbed by that. And that's, you know, under capitalism, under patriarchy, because fathers don't have that same kind of responsibility levied against them. And so for me, I really have had a practice of throughout the years talking to my sons, asking them to see me as more than their mother.

I'm also a part of this house. I'm a community member in this home. And as they've gotten older, I've asked them to see like, I don't need to do everything for you. And because I don't do everything for you doesn't mean I don't love you, right? It's a reorientation to you maturing and you being able to see me as a whole person, not just as your mother.

And I think back to like my mom and my grandmother, and I wish they would have had those kind of conversations with me and asked me to. I think I would have grown up a little bit differently if they would have asked me to see them in a different kind of way. And then directly in like how I discipline my children and the conversations I have with them, I allow them to have dissent against me. And I think that's really a powerful thing. And to challenge me. And I'm not gonna say I get it right all the time because it's really exhausting when you're like, do this thing and they're like, no, and you're going back and forth. That's exhausting. And so I'm not saying I get it perfect all the time,

but they know that they can dissent. And it doesn't mean that I'm going to like crush them and I'm going to yell and scream at them and belittle them. I'm gonna meet them and say like, OK, let me hear you. Let's talk about it. Because I think what happens as parents is we try to really crush children so they're moldable and so that it's easy for us to deal with them. But these are people, they are complex people.

And I want my sons to be able to go out into the world and challenge the things that don't feel good to them. And so that has to start here. So those I would say are two examples. And another thing I can think of is really encouraging my sons to have community relationships with not just me, right? Because I don't want to be the only adult in their life that they think to think about as the person that is responsible for them or loving on them. Right? I want even beyond family members, like my close home girls to be like, those are my sons, those are people I care about. So I want them to be in deep relationship in a multitude of ways.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I'm not a parent yet, although my due date is May 30th for my first child. And where I do have some experience into what you're sharing is like as a facilitator, I'm hearing, you know, when I facilitate, I try not to do teaching, but facilitating. And part of that is saying at the beginning, this is not the truth with a capital T, and really inviting folks to question, interrogate and challenge and make sense of what I'm sharing in their own lived experience. Instead of I'm telling you the truth and you must listen, I'm really hearing that kind of style. And then as well as this concept of like calling each other in, right? Instead of this very like top down, you're wrong. I'm not even going to tell you why you're wrong. You know, I'm right, you're wrong. Instead, you know, accountability is very important and holding each other accountable

and speaking to why we're feeling impacted or even where harm is created. That's very important and holding each other accountable and speaking to why we're feeling impacted or even where harm is created. That's very important. But the sense of calling people in, calling each other in, instead of calling out or putting down, feels kind of a little bit like what you're sharing. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I really want my sons to be experienced in healthy conflict, especially as boys who are going to be men who I don't want them to just their only emotions be rage and anger and not be able to express their fullness with me, the tears, the grief, the frustration, being scared. So I like really try to hold the space and listen, like really be present

when they're taking issue with something that I'm doing and be met with like, I don't see you just as my child, I see you as like a human and I need to relate to you in that way. So speaking of anger and rage and all of that, I'm wondering, you know, how do you negotiate conversations with your children around like, what is capitalism? And what is racism? And, you know, the history of the United States or the history of global capitalism and other systems of extraction and oppression? Like, how do you handle those conversations and any recommendations from your own experience around like what ages or how to offer that

because that could definitely lead to some anger and rage and even grief from children. And when is that appropriate for you? When have you found that that's been most useful or helpful and maybe when not? I wish I could say I'm raising like little revolutionaries who understand capitalism and all these things because they've been raised by me. But I'm raising teenagers who

are deeply intertwined with their peer and social group, right? And so their social group doesn't really necessarily care about these things right now. So how I negotiate that lately is through like I challenge my sons to read and I pay them to read. So I don't pay for chores in the house. My sons, they just have to they're part of the community. They have to do things. Everybody is assigned things. There are certain books and texts that I want them to read that they don't feel deeply interested in.

So I will say the book for this month is this book. Here's the amount and you can read it. And because they want the cash, they will read the book. And so I really try to meet with where they're at, like cognitively and like what they find fun and they find having their own money fun and they want to get paid for certain things. So that's how I negotiate some of the learning. But I've also, like for instance, my younger son who's 13 and Neurodivergent, ADHD, and he has had a lot of challenges with school. Like really, he's in seventh grade, does not enjoy school, does not enjoy the structure at all.

It's very, very hard for him, but he loves the social aspects of it. But when he's in fifth grade, one morning we were driving to school and he said, Mom, I know why we have to go to school the way we go to school from like eight to three. And I was like, why? He's like, so you can go to work. So the only reason we have our school time is because you have your work time. And so our school time has to fit inside your work time. And so while he didn't say that's capitalism, I said to him, you're right. He's like, so none of it really makes sense because I could go to school from 10 to 2 and learn the same things.

And I'm like, you could. And so I have these conversations, maybe not using the overt language, you know, but what I do is I really affirm what they're saying. And I think now, in these moments, particularly for my older sons, who are on social media and see certain things, and we were in a collapsing world, because they've grown up with a lot of tech and a lot of things, they don't see the world as like crumbling a lot.

They're like, things feel fun, I have my technology. They remember the pandemic and certain things like that, but they're not really like the world is crumbling. So we'll have certain little conversations. For example, if we see like Trump stickers and particularly where I live in Aurora, Colorado, the immigration things that are coming up will have conversation because it impacts them at school.

So it's not overt conversations about these certain isms, but it's about when they bring to me what they see, we'll have those conversations, or I will ask them, what do you think about X? What do you think about Z? And allow them to really share how they're feeling about things. You're listening to an Upstream Conversation with Toy Smith.

We'll be right back. We'll be right back. Hey, our grand display We once was weak, and now we're brave What time it'll take, no man can save King Keef, he's enslaved, the role he wants to play All the things that you could be today, I'm saying What time it'll take, no man can save Our history sampled like a memory, played it twice then let it be and gave midnight the best of me. Stormy occasions of weather festering just above my eyebrows. Hot clouds severely threatening as though my words would roll the jet stream piece. Offering see me see me see me tendencies, posed up for TV screens.

We oh so clean and on your weak, but we gon' be brave What time I take you to? No one can say, woo, oh, great The road you once played, the path you create The wheels you set me face, reactions as they change These connections help us make our way But dear the cost, oh Reactions as they change, these connections help us make our way But never call us like those we always miss

I gave it a 360 day wait to be 5 days late You caught me past frustration, an empty plate complacent With the past like dead weight and angels dance adjacent To this dream that I've been chasing Keep it clean and please be patient with my soul's stomach Akin' the digestion if it's hatin' Lack of a better way These days the lies display

With no honor to sift through Still we're picked to live through These reflections that we've made Can we be slaves? Boom, earth, grave The world becomes slaves Like it's a choice Like you got an option Like you might just be able to decide exactly who you are right now and who you will be then That was Left Fist Evolution by Bianca Micken.

Now back to our conversation with Toy Smith. So you mentioned books and I know that you read books with groups, with people, facilitate those discussions. And so I'd love to hear which are the books that you've had your sons read, and then also which are the books that you have read that have most impacted you around this topic around capitalism and parenting? So the most recent books in the last few months that they've read, I bought them all copies of the Black Panther Party, the graphic novel history, because they are into anime, they like to read

anime and things like that, and they like graphic novels, and so I got them that, and so they read that. And Indigenous People, History of the United States for Young people, which is a fabulous read. So that was one. And one that's not like for young people, but they, I had them read and they liked was winners take all the elite charade of changing the world, which was an interesting conversation to have them hold. And I think last summer I had them read the book called ejaculate responsibly summer, I had them read the book called Ejaculate Responsibly as boys to have them to start to think about what it means to have sex and things like that.

But for me, and particularly the books that have really been helpful for me are, when I think about the ones that continuously go back to are Cannibal Capitalism by Nancy Frazier is one of my favorite books recently. Feminism for the 99%. I list these books because they're smaller and shorter and easier for people to get into. Black Scare, Red Scare by Cherise Burton-Stelly is heavily academic but it's probably it's one of my favorite books in the last couple of years that has come out. The People's Guide to Capitalism was a really good, and I teach from that book, facilitate from that book I should say, because it's it's written in a way that people can grasp. Social Reproduction Theory, I facilitate from that book a lot too around mothering and parenting

Revolutionary mothering one of my favorite books around mothering So many so many more, but I think that's a good list Wow, thank you a great list and of course we will link to those in the show notes So I'd love to ask more about So I'd love to ask more about education, because I'll be honest, as I become a parent, that's one of my biggest questions is, you know, you mentioned one of your sons saying, hey, I know why we're in school from eight to three, it's so that you can work. And yeah, when I just look at the options, right, it's like, yeah, and also the ways that schools are led. And, you know, I'm

definitely sending a lot of appreciation right now to any teachers and folks in the education space because it just feels like such a difficult space to work in and lead in more progressive and post-capitalist and collective collaborative ways. So I'm just curious, yeah, how do you, how have you and how do you negotiate this conversation, this question around educating with your kids? I mean, Gala, this is probably one of the hardest parts for me because it's been the most challenging. And I'll just quickly say like how my sons have experienced school.

My older son, who graduated a couple of years ago, did not enjoy school at all. It was very hard for him. He thought it was boring. And so he got out and was like, I'm not going to college. I don't know what I'm doing, but it's not going back to school. And so he's on that terrain trying to figure that out. I have my twins who are honor roll students and honor students and AP class and don't love school,

but find it easy enough. And so they go and they do the thing. And then I have my youngest who has always been resistant to school. His just constitution himself does not fit the model of school. So since kindergarten it has been a struggle to have him conform himself to be in school because at every step of the way he has fought against it and he has walked into the school knowing that it was a location that is going to try to force him to conform. And so we've had those problems. And I was just actually at his school last week talking to the dean and the assistant principal because he is struggling. And I've had to make

some kind of the concessions of like school isn't the focal point, grades are not the focal point. They can't be because if that was it then I would be under so much stress trying to get my sons, all of them, to conform into this. So I allow them to kind of tell me and I watch how they are navigating that relationship of like discipline. It's a disciplinary relationship and each of them have have been different. I just think what I really do is like change the focal point of like this isn't going to inform your whole life. Right? This is a season. This is a moment. And will your grades from middle school impact you when you were 25? Probably not. So we have to decide what is the function of school. Right? So for you right now, you're going to go and make

some friends. We don't want you getting in trouble all the time because I don't want to hear from the school all the time. You don't have to do all the work, but don't be a disturbance in the class if that can be a thing. Right? Like, I'm not going to punish you if you have all horrible grades, but what does that mean going forward? And so, like, kind of having this question and allowing them to kind of be in that dance with me of, like, we don't 100% know what the future holds, but we know like right now this is challenging for them, some of them to do. And also, I'm not going to homeschool you. Like I do not have, I don't have the Constitution to do that. And is that the only option? Because there's just, there's homeschool or there's put them in school. And like there's very few other places to have them.

And as a single mom, I still have to I have to work. And as someone who is self-employed, I have to work. So I can't reasonably bring them bring them home to home school. So really, it's been a I would say a dance, a decentering of school, of being like home and what we agree on and how you move into the world is more important than what the structures and systems tell you you need to be. And also really being truthful around like, what does it mean and what are the opportunities for you if we decide to move in different ways and being truthful about that. Yeah, and I'm also hearing the need for systems change because somebody might listen and say, you know, some third ways could be the alternative education systems, right?

Steiner schools, unschooling forest schools, and all of those amazing modalities, and yet they're so cost prohibitive, right? And so we really need holistic education that is free, you know, and accessible to all. And so, yeah, we need this total system change to really create those opportunities. Yeah, and like front of mind, because when I think about those models, I'm like, where do they exist in my community

and how do I find them? Like, how much research do I need to do? If they're not close by me, they are maybe 30 minutes away. Do I have the accessibility to get there and continue that up and do that as a thing? It becomes really difficult to reach beyond what is just here. And that's kind of the struggle I have found over the years. Absolutely. So another interesting element around socialization is around language and

vocabulary and language. And, you know, because this is an important part of our socialization. And I do have one friend who's a mother who, for example, is raising her child to not use possessive pronouns over things. So she doesn doesn't say, this is my toy. They say, this is the toy I'm playing with. To illustrate like stewardship, not ownership, which I thought was a fun vocabulary shift that elicits this like alternative paradigm value. But I'm curious if you've looked in or in the books that you've read around language acquisition vocabulary and what invitations to alternative socialization we might have for children.

I mean, I think language is really, really important. And I think particularly with my sons, what I focus on is how they speak to each other and how they speak about themselves. Because as Black boys going out into the world, I think it's really important that they have a really deep, loving self-awareness. And that they also have a loving and healthy conflict style amongst each other. And so I'm really always asking them to reframe how they're talking to each other, right? Cause they're boys and they're teenagers. And again, they're around peers.

And sometimes some of the language can be very harsh and very like combative. And I don't want that to be the energy that they hold all the time. I want them to be able to, when things are heightened or even when we're calm and like they're talking to each other in certain kind of ways, I want it to be loving and I want them to understand that that's not a feminine trait to be loving and to be kind and to.

Hear and listen to each other. And so I always ask them to like they'll say, it's cold in here or something like that. And I'll be like, well, it's cold to you. Right. So maybe we should ask like, is it cold to everyone in here? Can we switch? Or I don't want to watch that. Well, maybe someone in here wants to watch that. So how do we think about everyone that's in the space

or you know, when they're like fighting with each other, like asking each other, well, can we take a breath and then come back and talk about this when we're calmer? Like giving them those tools and the permission to take space when they need needed, to be slower and gentler with each other instead of just very urgent and like just impactful, like hard in that way. And so I think that's the location I really try to focus on is like, how do they be with each other? How are they kind to each other? How are they upholding the like this morning?

They all like in the morning, they're like, oh, you look really nice. You look, you know, I like that outfit. I like that fit, as they say. And they'll start to like talk down to each other. I'm like, do you have some kind words that you could say to your brother instead? Like, how does what do you like about what he's wearing instead of it being in competition and letting them beat in that practice of saying kind words. And I will say like we used to do it monthly but now it's like maybe once a quarter. I do family meetings and I ask them to say like what is something that you enjoyed

from your brother over the last few months? And that sometimes it's a struggle but you know pull it out let's pull out one thing that you like or enjoy, just so that they get in the practice of being able to witness each other and use the language to actually share it as boys. Yeah, thank you. And what's coming up for me to kind of vocabulary or language shifts that we've really seen

in mainstream culture is black lives matter and black is beautiful. Right? Just like repeating that and saying that and, you know, really internalizing that, I can imagine. Like that feels related to what you're sharing. And so I want to ask about one of your projects, speaking about love and blackness, is one of your projects invites people to love Black single mothers. And so tell us more about that work. Tell us about that phrase

and what are the invitations and yeah, what does that work about? Yeah, so Loving Black Single Mothers is my organization that was officially founded in 2021. And it's really about just that, loving Black single mothers. If we know the history of Black single motherhood in the US, we know, like I shared, that Black single mothers have been under the guise of so much scrutiny, right? Scapegoating and all the things, welfare queens,

not deserving of love, respect, just the fullness of who we be. And as a Black single mother myself, I've experienced different levels and different versions of kind of just being dismissed and isolated and just not cared for inside of my mothering. And so loving Black single mothers has really been born from that. And the work that we do is to really honor Black Single Mothers

and truly improve their material conditions. So right now we have three ecosystems, which are our programs, that really we like to just give money to Black Single Mothers and uphold them. So our first one is Holiday Love, which for four months, Black single mothers get $500 a month to help with holidays, to help with just tending to themselves and their children through a time that can be very, very hard. And again, that's born from my experience of the holidays being a point

where we are really told to consume in the nature, if you're not able to buy for your kids, that you are a person or a parent or a mother who is not doing what you're supposed to do. And even if you try to get outside of that, your kids are socialized and in spaces where they know it's Christmas and they know it's the holidays and things like that. And so we wanted to create a way to balance that and give moms some reprieve. And so they get $2,000 over the course of four months

and it's been beautiful. And our next ecosystem is forever flourishing and it gives moms a $30,000 grant over the course of a year. So it's $2,500 a month to basically spend how they need. And so it's in the line of universal basic income and just giving moms money and saying, for us, we're saying we trust you because the support systems that Black single mothers who are lower income are usually under welfare, WIC, things like that. They don't say they trust you. They say, tell us all your information, prove your poverty,

prove that you need the support, and then we're going to police everything you do. And we flip that and we say, no, we trust you to make the decisions that you need. And so they get that amount. They also get a five thousand dollar wellness grant to help them do therapy, go to yoga, get anything they need to tend to their body and their systems. And so we have our first cohort inside of that program right now, and that's ending in May. And then our final program is Summer, Summertime Joy, which gives moms $3,500 to support them during the summer, because when school's out and you don't know what you're

going to do for childcare, or you can't afford to put your kid in summer camp or you can't afford to take your family to the amusement park, what do you do? And you don't maybe get those summertime experiences. And so that ecosystem really supports putting your kids in summer camp, taking the kids out to the amusement park or the water park, maybe just buying popsicles for the block, like anything you need for the summer. And so our ethos is really around, A, telling the stories of Black single mothers and the social location of Black single motherhood and how it has been used as a source of scapegoating and stereotyping and really trying to challenge that narrative

and also in deep reverence and support of Black single mothers. I can really hear the benefits and not just the financial, but the community. You're mentioning their cohorts. You mentioned the example of popsicles for the neighborhood. So I'm just, yeah, what have been the kind of benefits more on the like community level that you have experienced both being a part of these, but also seeing in the folks

that you're working with? I mean, I'll speak around this cohort that we have right now for Forever Flourishing, which is our $30,000 a year grant. These mothers have been journeying together for a while now and we recently had one of our evaluations come back and from talking to the moms and the mom just really reflected on yes the money's good but the sisterhood that they formed with the other

moms in the cohort is really where it's at for them. That they have finally been able to talk about the, that they have finally been able to talk about the experiences that they've had as Black single mothers with people who get it. Because normally in mother, like, mommy groups or motherhood spaces, you don't have a lot of Black single mothers who are able to really talk about what it's like to mother inside of these conditions. And so what they tell us is that it's been a, that part is deeply impactful, the community aspect, being able to be seen, to be heard and to be be nourished in that way. Yeah, no, I love that. And I love that we're

returning to something you said at the beginning of our conversation around one of the ways that we must come out of a spell or unlearn around parenting and motherhood is the isolation. And so the work that you're doing is in practice bringing people out of that isolation and into community, into more of the co-op parenting style, even as single parents. So I do want to ask, this is really the first of a series that I'm hoping to do around post-capitalist parenting. And I'm just curious, does anything come up for you when I say post-capitalist parenting? Like how can we parent today for the post-capitalist world we long for? How can we liberate our children in the now for that world that we're building,

that revolution, that post-capitalist world that we're striving for? So does anything come to mind when I say post-capitalist parenting? Yeah, so we've been having these beautiful conversations in my group, Deconstructing Motherhood. And one of the things I've really been sharing with our group is, you know, a lot of,

usually the flow is that your kids grow up, they go to college, they move outside the house, and then they're gone. And they recreate the nuclear family and they just do, they're on this conveyor belt. They just do what capitalism wants us to do. But we're seeing because society is collapsing in a certain kind of way and shifting

that a lot of young adults cannot live on their own, right? They have to live at home because they just cannot afford to be out on their own. And so what does that mean? That means that we have young adults who are still in our homes, but we are maybe still treating like our children. And our opportunity now is to be like,

we're raising community members that are more than likely for more communities than not going to be at home in some capacity longer than we think, right? Maybe until their early 30s or late 20s. And that means we need to relate to them differently. That means we need to be in relationship with them differently.

They're not just your children living in your home. They are community members who need to help you tend to, especially if you're a mother and you're the one who's normally holding the caretaking role, the labor and all the things. How do we raise our children knowing that they're not just going to be gone at 18, 19, and you know go to college and maybe come back at 22. They may be home for the long term. And how do we set our homes up with that knowledge? And how do we set our relationships

up with our children? And I also think it's a really beautiful, it's a beautiful moment because and that frees us up as parents to not just be the overseers, but to also be in relationship with the community as well. And so it acts as to like parent differently in terms of like, I'm always going to be in the caretaking, depending on their age, like when they get to teenagers, can they cook dinner once a month, right? Can they help you grocery shop and plan and understand what it takes to do those things?

Are they holding, are they responsible for something in your house that they have to do, right? Like that is their thing. How do we get outside of like, I'm just parenting so you can leave, but how do I make you make sure you're a good community member for my benefit and for the benefit of us all? And when I think of a post-capitalist world, like when more of us are interested in being closer, even to our children, that looks like changing how we relate when they're

younger and things like that. Thank you. Yeah and I want to come to our final invitations for those listening and how folks can get in touch with you and continue to learn with and from you and but so just to close what would be your final invitations for listeners, ways to stay in touch, ways to learn more and any other closing invitations for listeners, ways to stay in touch, ways to learn more, and any other closing invitations for those listening, whether they are parents, mothers, or not? I mean, you can find me on the normal platforms. Mainly Instagram is probably where I'm most active, just at Toy Marie. Or my newsletter, I send out a couple times a month, which are more longer form.

And I think they're really good. So that's another space to find me. And at lovingblacksinglemothers.com, if you're interested in the work that we're doing there, if you're interested in becoming a donor and supporting or just understanding our perspective around things, that's a good place to start. And what was the other question? Yeah. Any other closing invitations for those listening?

I mean, I would just say we're in a moment to question everything. And I think it's easier to look out at all the media and all the information we get and just be like, that's a thing over there and all of that. But I think you really have to, the invitation is to like look at our relationship with self, our relationship with our children, our relationship with our beloved, and how can we deconstruct those so they're more liberatory and that they're more loving and pleasurable and all those things instead of thinking we have to, that that kind of activism only exists on the outside of us, it's more internally of how we think about things and the things that are happening

in our home and the things that are happening in our close relationship. So I always invite people to look there first as a source of a place to start to do things. You've been listening to an Upstream conversation with Toy Smith, a growth and impact strategist. Please check the show notes for links to any of the resources mentioned in this episode. Thank you to Bianca Micken for the intermission music and to Carolyn Rader for the cover art. Upstream theme music was composed by me, Robbie. This episode was produced in collaboration with EcoGather, a collapse-responsive, co-learning network that hosts free, online, weekly eco-gatherings that foster conversation

and build community around heterodox economics, collective action, and belonging in an enlivened world. In this collaboration, EcoGather will be hosting gatherings to bring some Upstream episodes to life. This is one of those episodes. Find out more, including the date and time for this EcoGather, in the show notes, or by going to www.eco-gather.ing. Upstream is almost entirely listener-funded. We could not keep this project going without your support.

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