Upstream - Stop Cop City with Keyanna Jones and Matthew Johnson

Episode Date: March 14, 2023

For the past couple of years, the city of Atlanta, Georgia, has been pushing forward a project known as “Cop City” — a tactical training compound featuring a mock city which has been referred to as a kind of 'war base' where police will learn military-style tactics and maneuvers. The $90 million compound would be built on somewhere between over 300 acres of forest in Atlanta — a space known as the Weelaunee Forest, one of the largest urban forests in the country. As a result of this controversial and extremely unpopular development, a grassroots response has taken shape to stop Cop City. In today’s episode, we’ve brought on two individuals who are part of that movement. Keyanna Jones is an interfaith leader and member of the Faith Coalition to Stop Cop City. She’s lived in the neighborhood around the Weelaunee Forest for her whole life. Matthew Johnson is a minister at Beloved Comnmune, an activist, and also a member of the Faith Coalition to Stop Cop City. Both Keyanna and Matthew are organizers who have been integral to the movement. Thank you to Fugazi for the intermission music and to Zara Wilkins for the cover art. Upstream theme music was composed by Robert Raymond. This episode of Upstream was made possible with support from listeners like you. Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.  

This episode of Upstream is brought to you by the Come Back to Care podcast, a podcast for social justice curious families who want to practice social justice in their daily parenting while reparenting their inner child. Tune in wherever you listen to podcasts or visit www.comebacktocar.com forward slash podcast to learn more. forward slash podcast to learn more. And before we get started on this episode, please, if you can, go to Apple Podcasts and Spotify to rate, subscribe, and leave us a review. It really helps get Upstream in front of more eyes and into more ears. Thank you. And now on with the show. Ah. Ah. We know that Cop City's implications spread far and wide to all of us because it's not only police repression, it's environmental racism. It's not only environmental racism, it's also economic injustice because you are taking from a community. You're not offering jobs to the people in that community. You're not offering to build any other resources for

that community. Everything that Cop City is and will be would take away from that community. You're listening to Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. Upstream. A podcast of documentaries and conversations that invites you to unlearn everything you thought you knew about economics. I'm Della Duncan. And I'm Robert Raymond. For the past couple of years, the city of Atlanta, Georgia, has been pushing forward a project known as Cop City, a tactical training compound featuring a mock city,

which has been referred to as a kind of war base where police will learn military- style tactics and maneuvers. The 90 million dollar compound would be built on somewhere between 60 and 300 acres of forest in Atlanta, a space known as the Waialani Forest, one of the largest urban forests in the country. As a result of this controversial and extremely unpopular development, a grassroots response has taken shape to stop Cop City. In today's episode, we've brought on two individuals who are a part of that movement. Kiana Jones is an interfaith leader and a member of the Faith Coalition to Stop Cop City.

She's lived in the neighborhood around the Wilani Forest for her whole life. Matthew Johnson is a minister, activist, and also a member of the Faith Coalition to Stop Cop City. Both Kiana and Matthew are organizers who've been integral to the movement. And now, here's Robert in conversation with Kiana Jones and Matthew Johnson. Well, Kiana and Matthew, it's great to have you both on. And yeah, I'm wondering to start, I'd love it if you could both introduce yourselves and maybe just tell us a little bit like how you came to be involved in the movement to stop Cop City. Like why are you involved and what drew you to this cause? I'll start. My name is Kiana Jones and I am a resident of DeKalb County in the city of Atlanta. I am also a member of the Faith Coalition Against Cop City. I got involved with this movement because I live right in the neighborhood where they are proposing to build Cop City.

So this is something that is very personal to me. There's no way that I could have allowed something like this to go on without raising my voice. I am Matthew Johnson, executive director of Beloved Commune. Johnson, executive director of Beloved Commune. And I got involved in the fight to defend the Atlanta forest, Stop the Swap, and Stop Cup City about two years ago when there was this initial announcement of this backroom deal where then-Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms had put forward this project even without city council knowing. And before that, I had been involved with several local orgs that were developing mutual aid networks and communities of care. And this was just a natural outgrowth of a lot of our work during the George Floyd rebellions and after to really carve out the world that we wanted to see. And I have been involved in different capacities since that time.

Awesome. Thank you both so much. Okay, so I'm pretty sure that most of our listeners have, you know, at least a basic understanding of what's happening in the Atlanta or Weilani forest. But just to provide some sort of orienting background for good measure and just to bring folks up to speed if they haven't been as involved in paying attention or hearing about what's going on. I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind explaining what's happening, sort of like what's the significance of the forest, what communities live in that area, what is Cop City, and yeah, just maybe sketch us a picture of what all this is about. And, you know, whoever wants to tackle that one

first, go ahead. Matthew, I'll let you start and then I'll fill in anything that you missed, but I know you're not going to miss anything. Such a charmer. Yeah, very thankful for my colleague Kiana. Cop City is a proposed militarized police training facility and unincorporated way that it would be built is by destroying one of the largest urban forests in the country. Just to give a little bit more background, Atlanta has the second longest average daily commute of any major city with the exception of Los Angeles. Yet we don't have nearly the same terrible air quality that Los Angeles does. And that can be attributed to our status and our nickname of the city in the forest, right? That we have all of this space because of how nature works. We have a better oxygen supply

because of the vegetation and the trees that we have in the area. Because of rapid movements to develop Atlanta and then other gentrification and economic pressures, a lot of that is being cleared very fast. And the places where you really get the approval to do such things are black. This particular part of the South River is an area that's about 76% black. You already have about five detention facilities on the road, Constitution Road leading toward this forest, as well as the landfill, right? So essentially we have black neighborhoods being used

as the refuse to contain all of the unwanted parts of the carceral state and mind you this part of the south river was mandated by the clean water act to be clean however because well maybe not because but i think that there's no disconnecting the fact that it's a black area, there's no date for enforcement. Meanwhile, the northern part, north of DeKalb, that is significantly more white and wealthy, this water must be cleaned by 2027. Every time that it rains more than a tenth of an inch, the Atlanta-DeKalb sewage system floods into this water supply in South DeKalb. And nobody's doing anything about it, right? And what are we left to think but the fact that this isn't being done because these are Black working class areas? Now,

and then in addition to that, we have the just presence of police militarization. This project is widely opposed by the vast majority of folks that we've canvassed in the neighborhood. 70% of the record-long 17-hour public comment was against this project in Atlanta. percent of them voted for it so there's obviously an incongruency with the will of the people and the will of the so-called elective officials and meanwhile the atlanta city budget is already 37 and a half percent dedicated to policing this project had 60 million dollars from the private sector and mind you as we've seen an increase in the policing budget and an increase in private funds to make Atlanta the most surveilled city in the country, we've seen a rise in crime. So we no longer fall for this idea that an increase in police spending means an increase in public safety. So what we are really proposing here is that this is the line. We're seeing environmental racism, police violence, we've seen people killed in this forest, we've seen people brutalized in this forest, we've seen

trumped up charges across the board. This is the line where we have to push back and create momentum of new ways to keep ourselves safe that doesn't involve just locking up every black or brown kid that makes some sort of mistake somewhere along the way. So this is a much larger fight. Please continue with anything that Ms. Kiana. No, absolutely. I think that the point that we really have to draw out for people is the environmental racism that goes on in these communities. So I was born and raised in East Atlanta. I only live a little bit less than a mile away from where I was born and raised in East Atlanta. I only live a little bit less than a mile away from where I was born and raised and is very close to the Willaunee People's people. And what I want people to think about when they think about Cop City, I want them to think about Flint, Michigan. Everybody was up

in arms about Flint, Michigan and the water quality and the levels of lead in the water some years ago. But what I want people to understand is that Flint is one case that was highlighted. Most recently, Jackson, Mississippi as well. But during that time that we recognized what was going on in Flint, I was living in Roselle, New Jersey, and there were 12 municipalities in the state of New Jersey that were all majority black that had lead levels higher than Flint, Michigan. So when we look at that and we look at the level of environmental racism and apathy that goes on in urban and majority black communities, we have to look at where the Wilani People's Park is located in the heart of South DeKalb County that is

unincorporated DeKalb, but also within the city of Atlanta. And that is a neighborhood right now that has been gripped by gentrification. But that one piece is the piece that still remains majority black because they are not proposing this. They're not proposing to do this in East Atlanta Village they're not proposing to do this in Kirkwood which are both parts of the city of Atlanta and unincorporated DeKalb because those areas are majority white they're proposing to do this right near the Wilani People's Park and in the Wilani People's Park, which is the end of East Atlanta in South DeKalb County, that is still predominantly black, but also within the city of Atlanta. So we cannot diminish the environmental implications here where our children already don't have clean air to breathe and clean water to drink. clean water to drink and there are numerous studies that show the effects of lead poisoning on young children as it relates to education and their ability to learn and focus and even the

physical health effects of things like lead poisoning and when you don't have clean air to breathe can you imagine what students who are walking in that area will be breathing should Cop City move forward? Because there is an elementary school and a high school right there. That park is sandwiched between that elementary school and the high school. When we think about it, I don't believe that the city of Atlanta truly did its due diligence. And I know that they did their due diligence on one end because they figured that these are people who are expendable. This is not the area of East Atlanta that is seriously gentrified. This is not the area of East Atlanta that looks like the 10 minute city where we have a lot of commercial businesses and we have these new developments that have gone up.

And it's only 10 minutes away from the heart of downtown Atlanta. This is not that part. This part is still heavily inhabited by Black families who have been there for quite some time and they honestly do believe that we're expendable. So when we talk about environmental racism, when we talk about the significance of this land, understand that the repression of Black bodies and the oppression of Black communities is really what we're looking at when we talk about Cop City. Yeah, thank you both so much. So much to unpack. You know, I'm writing down here like environmental racism, trumped up charges, which we're going to get into, misallocation of resources, of course, police terror, murder. Yeah, lots of threads to sort of pull on there. I think one of the things that I want to sort of

explore first, though, because you you've alluded to this, and in fact, you said it up front, you touched on it that the community is overwhelmingly against this, this project, this development. And so, yeah, can you talk a little bit about what the community response to Cop City has been? It sounds like something that's very much being pushed onto the community by a minority of powerful voices. Yeah, maybe if you could just sketch us a picture of what the community response has been like. The community response to Cop City has, as Matthew said, been overwhelmingly against Cop City. And whether we are talking about the immediate

community near the area where its proposed location is, or we're talking about the city of Atlanta at large, there have not been very many people who have expressed support for something like cop city now what we do know is that there is a silent agreement between the power structure and governmental infrastructure in the city of atlanta and the so-called black elite that says that as long as those so-called black elite can keep the rest of us in line then they will maintain their positions of so-called black elite can keep the rest of us in line, then they will maintain their positions of so-called power. They're going to maintain their status as long as they keep us at bay. And what that means right now for the city of Atlanta, because you know there is a big issue of a certain section of the city of Atlanta called Buckhead that wants to secede from the city of Atlanta

but still use their resources as a compromise for Buckhead's secession or the lack thereof we now have Cop City because Buckhead's secession has come about amidst complaints from supposedly the Buckhead majority saying that there's so much crime happening with these people coming to Buckhead and these people who are committing these acts and they're not from Buckhead and we want to make sure that Buckhead stays safe. But there is a large faction of Buckhead residents. In fact, the majority of Buckhead residents are not calling for secession. They have stood against the city of Buckhead seceding from the city of Atlanta. But I think that bears us looking into a little bit deeper the Atlanta Police

Foundation, who sits on the board, a person by the name of Dave Wilkerson, who has led the charge for Buckhead secession, what his relationship is to the Atlanta Police Foundation, and how all of this goes back to the city of Atlanta government being afraid of the corporations that are really in power right now because they hold much of the revenue that comes into the city of Atlanta. So the city council of the city of Atlanta and the mayor have really begun to kowtow to these corporations. They are funding the Atlanta Police Foundation to essentially work for corporations and not the people. Did you want to add anything, Matthew? What we've seen from the Atlanta political class are ways in which they've handicapped themselves by being so complacent and complicit with corporate power.

For instance, they wouldn't be so dependent on Buckhead tax revenues if they hadn't placated Buckhead business interests by ameliorating the tax base that would exist by corporate interests that are inside the city, right? I mean, if you give so many tax breaks that you don't have any revenue coming from a lot of the corporations that move in, now you're dependent on this one part of the city that made you go along with those tax breaks in the first place, right? So essentially they're hemmed up because they made so many concessions, right? And it's become cyclical because now when it comes to major municipalities, Atlanta has some of the least solvent long-term debt obligations. the least solvent long-term debt obligations.

And because of this, they're constantly trying to placate these corporate interests to maybe bring in some more revenue in the future, but it never plays out that way because there's so many sweetheart deals that happen that by the time they convince these corporations to come in, they're not making anything off of it. So there's so many layers of mismanagement where the political class has made concessions that we're stuck in this political quagmire.

Another thing to note, as Kiana was saying, much of Buckhead doesn't want to secede. And even in the Georgia State Senate, the Buckhead secession bill failed earlier this week, even in spite of all this, right? Because what we're really looking at is a genuine vision of the city that actually does keep us safe. Over the past four years, we've raised the policing budget about $38 million among the largest protests in the history of the world that were against increasing police funding towards militarization, right? And over the same four-year span, we've seen an increase of annual homicides from 99 to 170. So this idea that if you were to now give, okay, so now we really need to give more money to police. It's utterly irrational. It's a paranoiac reaction of private and corporate interests that are accumulating wealth at rates that are absurd.

And it's really a guilty conscience that's creating this, not a need or any evidentiary support that should lead us to believe that policing will keep us safer, right? So what we're looking at is a new vision of the city that can actually keep people safe. And a lot of that means y'all are going to have to come off some of this money, resources, and sweetheart deals, point blank, period. There's no getting around that. And that's what we'll have to get to because atlanta has the largest wealth disparity of any city in the country okay like the largest racial wealth disparity of any city in the country we're talking about one dollar for the black median household income to three dollars for the white median household income so even with affordable

housing technically at 80 average median median income, that's still about 60 to 70% higher than that average median income for black households, right? So these numbers are astronomically off. At the same time that we have the fourth largest incarcerated population, if Georgia was a nation, we would have the fourth largest incarcerated population in the world, right? Okay. So once again, these numbers are astounding when you really look at them and it's because the system is predicated on cheap black labor and black faces selling you shit deals in order to sustain this system. Wow. Yeah, that's such important context. Thank you so much for providing that. And I think in so many ways, right, this is such a truly Atlanta local issue.

And in so many ways, Atlanta is a microcosm of so many cities in the United States. And like, I feel like we could be having this conversation around so many different cities. But just hearing those numbers uniquely to Atlanta is just astounding. So yeah, again, thanks for providing that context. And so now that we've sort of, I guess, you know, sketched a little bit of a picture of where you all are, what you're dealing with on the ground in terms of all of the misallocation of resources and all of the other things that you just outlined for us. I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit about this week of action that I believe is just probably wrapping up at this point. We're recording this on Friday,

but I would love to hear from you all sort of what sparked this week of action, what transpired. Folks have probably heard some of the news reports. And so maybe if you could just sketch a picture, set some of the story straight, however you want to tackle this, I'd love it if you could also maybe mention something about the, like you mentioned earlier, the trumped up charges and this charging 23 forest defenders with domestic terrorism charges, which is just absolutely insane. So yeah, just whoever wants to tackle this one first, it's a lot to unpack there. So yeah, attack it however you'd like to. A whole lot to unpack. But we'll start off by saying that this week of action has been a tremendous success. We have done exactly what we planned this week of action to do,

have done exactly what we planned this week of action to do, which was to center the voice of the immediate community, to make sure that Atlantans came out, and to also send a clear message not only to Mayor Andre Dickens and the Atlanta City Council, but to people worldwide saying that we don't want Cop City. The residents of Atlanta don't want Cop City. People in Georgia don't want Cop City. And there's been this growing narrative really pushed by police and the mainstream media that there are only white outside agitators that are coming here and protesting against Cop City. And we wanted, as people who've been involved in the movement at various stages from the beginning we wanted people to understand that that's simply a lie but we also wanted to highlight the fact that this is one of the oldest narratives that has

been put out about movements where black people are affected when When it came to abolition, they said, oh, it's those white people in the North who don't want slavery. Slaves are fine. They like being taken care of. When it came down to the civil rights movement, they said, southerners are fine. It's them white people coming from the North stirring up agitation. But that also was a lie and here we are again in Atlanta which is often called the seat of civil rights it's often called the birthplace of the civil rights movement it is very often called the black mecca here we are again with the same narrative being promoted that the people who are coming here who are against cop city are only white outside agitators and that is simply a lie so whether you are looking at a group of clergy

members or a group of students from the atlanta university center which includes morehouse spellman clark atlanta and morris brown whether you're looking at the people who live in the immediate area of the proposed cop city location, you are not looking at outside agitators. And quite frankly, I don't care if they are black, white, indigenous, or whatever. If you live here in Atlanta and you are protesting cop city, then you are proving that narrative wrong. Because at the end of the day, although that section of East Atlanta is predominantly Black, we know that Cop City's implications spread far and wide to all of us. Because it's not only police repression, it's environmental racism. It's not only environmental

racism, it's also economic injustice. Because you are taking from a community. You're not offering jobs to the people in that community. You're not offering to build any other resources for that community. Everything that Cop City is and will be would take away from that community. So no, it's not outside agitators. We do have people who come to stand in solidarity with us we have people who want to amplify what we're doing and let me just say that the fact that there have been white people from out of state who have been arrested is because those people embody movement values that's what we're about movement values dictate that if you are a person who has the honor of exercising a certain amount of privilege then you use that privilege to protect the more marginalized

so those people have stepped up and said i am not going to allow my indigenous relative my black relative my latinx relative to be the one that is going to get kettled by police and taken away. I'm going to put myself in that position, if at all possible, because they know that the treatment that we get is going to be far worse than what they get. So we have to be very careful when we talk about people from the outside coming in and what it is that they're doing. We know that this movement attracts a lot of people and we know that every movement for justice always has people that are more radical. There are some people that are more radical who want to bring others onto their more radical agenda. That counteracts what the majority of the movement is doing.

And we see that in our movement, just like it was seen in the civil rights movement, just like it was seen in other LGBTQIA plus movements, just like it has been seen throughout history in every movement. You have people that go to the more radical end of the spectrum and begin to try to bring other people over. Their actions, unfortunately, detract from what the overall message is. And it gets people off on a tangent that adds and fuels the police narratives that get put out. But what we want people to be clear about is that our movement from the beginning has been based on our belief that cop city only militarizes police, it increases repression of Black bodies and Black communities, it takes away green space, which is very critical to our environmental health, and that it adds to the economic burden

of our community. So all of our actions have been in line with what we believe, and none of those things include destruction of property or hurting people. You're listening to an Upstream Conversation with Kiana Jones and Matthew Johnson. We'll be right back. Get a lot of questions for me Get a lot of questions for me Got your fingers falling in me Detente I live for what I live for But you don't know You make a great content

You make a great content You make Got a lot of good stuff on me Got your favorite boys and me I'm the entrant I'm looking for one that's not done with you I'm the entrant I'm looking for one And I'm gonna do

Just make her Yeah, yeah, yeah Big break out We'll see you next time. That was Great Cop by Fugazi. Now back to our conversation with Kiana Jones and Matthew Johnson. I think that it's important to put in context some of the figures that people are hearing now, just because there's so much bad news and absurdity. And the news or any social media feed that you look at, sometimes it can just be hard to quantify. So let's go through these numbers, right? We had 23 charges of domestic terrorism on Sunday alone. Now the numbers have totaled over 40 people charged with domestic terrorism.

And in many of these cases, the only thing that can be substantiated is that people were in a park that is currently under litigation to determine who owns it legally, right? So let's keep that in mind about the domestic terrorism charges in general. These aren't tied to anybody necessarily doing a damn thing, but being present in an area where private interests have trumped the will of the people and public ownership for some reason or another. And yeah, just if I can interject just for a second here, just to provide a little bit of context for our listeners. Over the weekend, this would be last Sunday, so March 5th, there was a festival in Welani Park with hundreds of people gathered to denounce Cop City and to celebrate the forest. And there was sort of a breakaway action, which Kiana alluded to,

where some civil disobedience happened. Some property was allegedly set on fire. And of course, the police overreacted, chased people down, broke up the entire music festival happening like a mile away, threatened people's lives, arrested people indiscriminately. So that's where the most recent 23 charges of domestic terrorism have come from. But you're going back further and you're including the total 40 overall up to this point. But yeah, I just wanted to provide some quick context about this last week of action. Oh, I'll get to that. Right. But I mean, those 40 arrests span over the past two months, some of which people were literally just standing in the parking lot when police decided to raid

and start to tack on domestic terrorism charges. Some of the folks were shot at with rubber bullets, had pepper spray canisters fired at them, had tear gas canisters fired at them when they were peacefully sitting in trees, brutalized and yanked out forcibly, then they were charged with domestic terrorism. Okay. So, I mean, it varies. Now on Sunday, there were people who, by the footage, it appears set fire to some facilities that were where they were going to be building the police training facility.

At least quite a few of those arrests were made at the music festival that was about a mile away, with no substantiation that those individuals that were arrested at that music festival were ever near the place where these things were allegedly set on fire. Another thing to note about that, because I think this is important in terms of disproportionate force and the asymmetry of law enforcement. We previously mentioned Dave Wilkinson, who is the CEO of the Atlanta Police Foundation, okay, and the blackest city in the country, who worked the Secret Service for George H.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan, who were, you know, excellent for the black community, apparently.

Sounds like a great guy. Yeah, seems like a great guy. We saw emails where he was essentially flying in the face of the land disturbance permit appeal and saying that they were going to continue construction anyway, although legally all action of construction of that land should have been halted at that very moment. And they continued to clear land, and then they added in this additional infrastructure.

This additional infrastructure has been seemingly destroyed. Nevertheless, that literally should not have existed if they followed the law whatsoever. So you have 23 people that we cannot clearly tie to this action that are sitting in jail for somebody destroying these things that should not have existed in the first place if this person acknowledged the rule of law, right? Here's another metaphor. The most common form of theft in the United States is wage theft. So that's employers rolling back hours, requiring employees to do things off the clock, working outside of their job requirements, etc. But that's not a crime, right? Because it's about who holds power, not necessarily the infraction.

So this asymmetry of law enforcement is something that we really need to look at. is something that we really need to look at. I just think that's always very important context for this particular movement because God knows that people have tried every strategy within the framework of the law. But in so many ways, the things that have been most effective are these direct actions such as occupations

and some other forms of sabotage. Now, I think that there are some concerns, especially with this week of action, in regards to strategy in this action, right? Because we kind of came in knowing that the police were assholes. And, I mean, these are things that we have to navigate because the media has never been on our side, right? So we have to move in this way

where what we're really waging is a PR war because we're outmanned and outgunned. And that's for God damn sure. Right. So the way that we move must be like very clear. And we also have to be very strategic in the actions that we use. Right. Just in the same way that if I want to get from point A to be the fastest, I don't necessarily go on a straight line because that might have fences, yards, bramble bushes, etc. Sometimes I have to take a road and a path that's more winding and technically like a longer way, but it doesn't cause nearly as much fallout and injury to individuals. And so I think that that's something that,

you know, we should also acknowledge in regards to a diversity of tactics that how is it that we can better care for and acknowledge one another in the same vein that we acknowledge that so many ways that people have tried all the right things have been undermined by private and political interest colluding. Actually, I really appreciate that example of wage theft. We actually use that exact analogy in our documentary on police abolition, because it's so helpful in understanding how much of a social construct crime is, right? Like this Wilkinson guy isn't going to get slapped with domestic terrorism charges, you know, and so much of the law and policing, like much of the infrastructure of the state under capitalism, it's just another tool of the capitalist class. And, you know, policing is

deployed as a form of class war. Police are really like the municipal army of the capitalist class. And this is just them doing what they do, right? Yes. And then I think it's something else that's very important. Atlanta Police Department and the DeKalb Police Department are allowed, and in some cases, essentially enforced to be private security at establishments where they use their police car and their police uniform. In fact, at a previous week of action, it was reported that there were uniformed, off-duty DeKalb police officers that were guarding a machine that was doing a legal clearing of land.

And it just so happened that a couple hundred people were currently camping in the forest to stop this, right? And one would have believed, right, that this was a state-sanctioned action or something that was legal because they had the police there to do it, but they were off the clock on working private security. This is literally the police working private security for a political engine. We don't have to make any arguments. We don't have to, you know, just like draw any lines or say this is what essentially the police are. They're literally doing it, right?

Like the same way that they're telling us that this is for creating some like new form of police training of de-escalation. They just told you what they're going to do. They're literally, they quote somebody. They just told you what they're going to do. They're literally, they killed somebody. And they've been using heavy-handed force just to get this land to make this militarized police training facility. What would possibly make you believe that they're going to change the entire policy once they actually get this land that they've been willing to kill for? Sorry, I'm going on a tangent. But I mean, this is just just it's too real for us to joke about. I just wanted to add to Matthew's point about police training. So many people are saying, you know, well, would you want the police to get more training? People are calling for police reform all over the nation. Don't you want more training for police? And our answer is no, we don't.

Because police have been doing training, every type of training that you can imagine. Mental health training. They've been doing diversity, equity, and inclusion training. They've been doing so-called implicit bias training. All of this training has been going on for decades. And Tyree Nichols was still murdered. Torchigita was still murdered. Matthew Zadok Williams was still murdered. Torchigita was still murdered. Matthew Zadok Williams was still murdered. Jimmy Atchison was still murdered.

Oscar Cain Jr. was still murdered. Andrew Smyrna, Javis Benjamin, Jarvis Lykes, Cain Rogers, Sholly Tilson, Leedon Boykins. The list goes on. Rayshard Brooks, George Floyd. Training has been done. It's not a question of training. It's a question of police culture. And again, the police culture is to repress Black, Brown,

Indigenous, AAPI, Latinx communities. That's not an issue of training. Training is not what we need right now because the training that would happen at Cop City, training of outside police forces. Now, if we want to talk about outside agitators, those are the outside agitators. It's already been documented that much of the training that would occur at Cop City would be for outside police forces. And the Atlanta Police Department has already been trained by the Israelis. There is an agreement already with the Georgia State Police and the Israelis. The same way that they oppress Palestinians, they would do that here. Our group that marched through downtown Atlanta on Tuesday was kettled. on Tuesday was kettled. That's a tactic that was taught by the Israelis. So cop city is not the answer for the lack or for the inefficiency of police training. All throughout history, we have seen where things have happened and the answer has been more police, more money to police.

been more police, more money to police. And what has been solved? What has been helped? In 2023, there are Black families in Atlanta struggling to make it. They're making less money in 2023 than they made in 2003. So that's not something that more police is going to fix. And you're talking about police culture, their culture is, yeah, it's to, like you mentioned, like they're learning these tactics from, you know, Israeli militarized forces that are just completely destroying the lives and murdering Palestinian, Palestinian children and women. Just recently, you know, as this is all going on here in Atlanta, children and women. Just recently, you know, as this is all going on here in Atlanta, this last couple of weeks has been an absolute horrifying examples of that happening on occupied Palestinian land with Palestinian people as well. And so, yeah, I really appreciate you making that

connection. And I mean, another thing about police culture is that they're taught to lie, right? And they do it literally all the time. And they manipulate people, they manipulate the media, they manipulate evidence. I mean, so for example, of the 35 people that were arrested last weekend, 23 were given domestic terrorism charges. And so the dozen that weren't charged the other 12 people, they actually released them without charge, because they were local residents, they only charged the people that weren't from Georgia. So APD actually staged the whole thing to look like it was, you know, only outside agitators, they wanted people to see the headline, right? Like 23 outside agitators charged

with domestic terrorism or something. And so like they're literally manipulating their arrests to, to manufacture this narrative that they're pushing. Yeah. I didn't know that you knew about that. And I had forgot to bring it. I didn't, I didn't know that everybody knew about. I mean, I, I just saw it recently, you know, I follow I follow, I think it was like Micah and ATL on Twitter and some other really helpful accounts that have been posting about this. And so, yeah, I don't know if everyone is aware of that. They know now. Unfortunately, there are things that just cannot be contained. And, you know, my granny always says that no lie lives forever.

and you know my granny always says that no lie lives forever and that lie about outside agitators is being refuted even as we speak there are people who were there who are speaking out and Matthew I'll let you take the rest of it just because I know that the truth was going to come out I hope that it continues to come out and I hope that people are not afraid to let it be known what actually happened when people were arrested Sunday night. The arrests were utterly, I just saw, I saw one of them with my own eyes. And it was literally, the police just started chasing after a group of three people. Two of them were white. One of them was indigenous. Then when they veered past, follows the indigenous person, tases him, chokes them, and puts him in a chokehold.

And then we're trying to de-escalate him from choking this person out. and then he was like what i didn't even do anything where he was like well you ran and then i just yelled wait you chased him what did you expect him to do you have a gun and you're running after somebody arbitrarily i don't am i supposed to just wait for you to tackle me i mean I mean, the absurdity that this person thought and vocalized this idea like it made sense, right? That this was a reason to then apprehend somebody because he started running after he was being chased by the person already, right? These are the issues that we're dealing with. And then when you also look at the people that were quite specifically targeted to further this narrative of this outside agitator thing, right? And that's simply one layer of it. We have them quite actively releasing people that didn't fit that narrative in many cases, specifically targeting a legal observer that

was one of the two Georgia arrests, right? Just, I guess, because they didn't like how this person was talking to them as if they were both human beings rather than subservient. And then also, let's look at what people have seen in Atlanta. People have seen indiscriminate arrests for domestic terrorism. So you're already inhibiting people that are local and have families and responsibilities. You're hamstringing them from being able to get into the movement at all without having fear of arbitrary charges being brought forth against them. Right. And then in addition to that, when it comes to these movements, there's so much labor

that's required. Let's also think about the disparity in wealth and resources and people got kids. Do you know how much different it is for someone like Kiana? Like, I don't mean to put your business on the street, but you got kids, you got a family. I'm, you know, I'm an activist without kids. And, you know, I have some family, right? So our risk and being involved in this struggle are different. And we should never go without acknowledging that. And then when you're looking at the knock-on effects of generational wealth destruction because of oppression among the black community, it becomes harder for people to be able to take these risks because we're so interdependent on one another.

choose to do activism and not make money and not have a knock-on effect to your other family members as many other folks can that commit their lives to this type of activism and work. Some of us really just don't have that mobility, for instance, to be like such as myself, a college graduate who's choosing not to make as much money to follow what I believe is the work of God. Many people don't have that option. And I think that's a blessing that I have to be able to do that and people be relatively okay. So, I mean, there are just so many factors that inhibit people from acting in the movement or when I'm canvassing people in the neighborhood and every time I'm like, okay, so we'd like you to come out to this thing at six they're like damn i just got off work um you're usually doing back-breaking work if you're poor that doesn't pay as much and you have to make more hours simply to make it

so this is creating a system in which people are more fatigued like to do this type of activism and this is why you saw when you had essentially universal basic income during the George Floyd uprisings, everybody was there. That was, I mean, this is a lurking variable that we don't talk about, right?

That working class people had more access to resources than they ever have. And people show the true face and how they really felt about working classes. Now they're never going to let the working class get resources again after they saw how we acted. I'm kidding. But for interesting analog to that, that I'm just have on my mind because I'm working on an episode on this is how health care insurance tied to your workplace also limits your ability and your freedom to actually write how you otherwise would. So a very interesting analog there. You mentioned the legal observer from the Southern Poverty Law Center, I believe was the only individual who was slapped with those outrageous domestic terrorism charges who received bail. So everyone else, they could be sitting in jail for who knows how long. It could be weeks. It could be months. It could be years, right? So a lot of folks are talking about how

those charges are probably going to be scrapped because they are so outrageous. But in the meantime, these people's lives are ruined. It's a war of attrition. Exactly. They're just wearing down on people's capacity to fight back continually while they keep pushing forward with a project that nobody wants. Meanwhile, intimidating other people from getting involved and then saying it's because nobody cares. It's a very simple play that fascists do everywhere in the world. All I can do is say amen, because it is absolutely true. Absolutely true. So I spoke with a couple of people about a month ago, you know, about Cop City, Nolan, Huber Rhodes, and Jesse Pratt Lopez. And well, actually, Nolan helped set this interview up.

So actually, just want to shout out Nolan for that. Thank you. But yeah, actually, Nolan helped set this interview up. So actually, just want to shout out Nolan for that. Thank you. But yeah, when I was talking to them for my other show, the response, they told me about that incident you mentioned, Matthew, where there was a forest defender occupying a tree who was like maced for hours. And then they finally came down from the tree. And they were charged with domestic terrorism. Like how fucking ironic is that? Right. Like sitting in a tree is terrorism, but violently assaulting someone with a with fucking tear gas isn't. But I mean, yeah, these outsized charges aren't a new thing. And they've been deploying these tactics for like months and months now. been deploying these tactics for like months and months now. And then you also mentioned the murder of Tortugita. And if this is something that neither of you want to talk about for whatever reason, that's fine. But if you do have the capacity to sort of sketch what happened there for folks who I'm sure most of our listeners have at least heard of what happened, the

murder of Tortugita, the forest offender. But there's been a lot of information that's come to light more recently, again, exposing, you know, potential lying by the police and sort of turning the narrative that both the police and the majority of media outlets that are just usually spoon fed this stuff from police departments have been putting out there. So I'm wondering, yeah, if either one of you or both of you want have any words that you'd like to say about that. All I will say, in reference to torture Gita's murder, is that there needs to be a truly independent investigation. There cannot be trust of the GBI, of the Atlanta Police Department, of any law enforcement agency that was involved in that so-called raid that day.

There can't be trust because the body cam footage that was made available already suggests something contrary to the story that was put out. That in and of itself should be enough to warrant an independent investigation simply because we see that the GBI is not willing to do anything about it. DeKalb County District Attorney Sherry Boston already recused herself. She recused herself from that case as soon as it happened because she knew that the jig was up. She knew that there was something that was not right in that water. So we need to pay attention. And while we see all of these things going on, we can just add that to the list of one more reason why we don't need Cop City and why police repression is a real thing. From the very beginning, there have been massive contradictions that cannot be reconciled. was that they had been ambushed by someone who shot an officer and then they shot back. Two hours later, they had approached someone in a tent. Now, I'm not sure if they're implying that Tortugita Fred Flintstoned their tent, cut out a bottom and somehow was walking in their tent to ambush them.

Or we simply have a lie from the very beginning. OK, and the evidence that was explained and said that was collected there, there was no gun. Now, at the same time, when apparently they've done their research, found out what was permitted, then they came back and said that this was the murder weapon that happened to be registered in their name. Now, I knew Tortiquita, and they have made statements about why it would be bad to have guns in the forest people that know them knew that so there's already things that we know internally weren't adding up about this story from the very beginning and then in addition to that tortugita was shot 13 times okay and the apD body camera among the officers that were about 30 yards away said you effed your own officer up. What are we supposed to make? How much do we need to not believe police?

leave police. How much? Like none of this story adds up from the very beginning. And just if anybody's keeping a record, 40 domestic terrorism charges and one person killed. They couldn't even show us the bruise or tell us what officer got hit with a bullet through a vest. There's no accountability. And the excuses they come to protect the officer, that's what we get? Nobody bats an eye. So many powerful black people in Atlanta. So many. Nobody bats an eye.

Nobody can stand up and say something. It's pathetic. I get disgusted every time I think about it i'm sorry it is disgusting and i don't know how anybody could believe a word of uh anything that the police and any any fucking city say at any time anymore just they've been caught in their lives so many times. One other piece of information that I believe Jesse Pratt Lopez, who was on my other podcast at the episode that I was referring to earlier, mentioned that the gun that Tortuguita allegedly used was bought before Tortuguita was even in the state. So there's just so many holes in that narrative. Just a quick but very important update on the murder of Tortuguita, the forest offender who was killed by Georgia State Patrol on January 18th. A second autopsy,

which was made public after Robert spoke with Kiana and Matthew, revealed that Tortuguita's hands were raised up in the air when they were shot 13 times by the police and that they were likely seated in a cross-legged position. This, of course, strongly disputes the official Georgia Bureau of Investigation's narrative that Tortuguita was shot in self-defense after they shot a state trooper. Tortuguita's family sued the city of Atlanta last week after the release of more video footage of the killing was blocked. So you've all mentioned, you know, environmental racism, you know, climate change, police terror. You mentioned the Muscogee comrade

who was, you know, tackled and choked by police. There's so many intersecting issues and areas of activism that are taking place right now in the the Waialani People's Park, right? You have all these issues, you know, creeping fascism and colonialism and indigenous land theft, if you go back to how the Waialani People's Park came to be known as the Atlanta City Forest. And so I'm wondering if maybe, yeah, if you could just sort of give us a picture of like this broader coalition of folks and organizations that have sort of come out against the project. And what has that sort of like that solidarity felt like? What has the resistance look like? Has it been enlivening at all? Has it made you feel hopeful at all in the sense of so

many people coming together in this one place to fight for and against all of these different issues? It definitely gives us so much hope. When you look at the level of corruption that we're fighting against cop city on so many levels there is a certain level of legitimacy that comes when the sierra club is behind you there's a certain amount of legitimacy that comes when other environmental justice organizations like 350.org are behind you and don't make any mistake about it. We're legitimate in and of ourselves because we are the people of this community. And this is a movement that we felt strongly about that we started. But for some people on the outside looking in who need just a little bit more of an impetus to get them there, when you have organizations like Greenpeace, Sierra Club, 350 sign on. And then when you have legitimate scientists, biologists who come on and ecologists who will come on and say, look, if you destroy this forest, this is what's going to happen to this community.

If you destroy this forest, these are the implications. Now we have those people who would otherwise say, hey, police training is a good thing. Now those people have an angle to look at it from where they understand on a different level. And it makes them think twice about it because at the end of the day, they might want police training, but they don't want our green space destroyed. So now you have a broader movement. Now you have a truly multifaceted movement. And now you have a movement that you are never going to stifle because there are too many people who are involved on different levels for different reasons.

But it makes us all come together because at the end of the day, we are all committed to that land. And that land is the focus of everything that's happening and just like you alluded to unfortunately colonialism and the presence of white supremacy that notion that all of this land should be only for certain people that's what we have in play here because just like the time that the Muscogee people were originally pushed out of their land, some people felt like they had a right to this land and that we should be made to give it up. So we see that happening here once again. Matthew, did you want to add anything?

Matthew, did you want to add anything? Oh, no, I'm fine. It's just the support means a lot. You know, people showing up and showing solidarity, especially after Tortuguita was murdered, meant a lot. The international outpouring of support meant a lot. And God only knows how much that meant to Tortugita, because their perspective had always been international. And I get emotional every time I think about it, because people don't know how much that meant to us, especially in a really tough time. Thank you. Well, thank you both so much. And I guess I just have sort of one closing question.

Yeah, I'm wondering if you mentioned that one closing question. Yeah, I'm wondering if you mentioned that you're feeling hopeful, and I'm wondering what would success look like in stopping Cop City for you all aside from, you know, actually stopping Cop City, which is a fairly straightforward aim. But yeah, I'm wondering, you know, what's, is there a larger intention or vision of the movement that you're a part of? And like, what would it look like or feel like to win? digging their heels into the ground and not being mowed over, but slowing the train down, is essentially what we've been doing. We have multiple, multi-billion dollar corporations behind this project, and we've kept pushing back. The train is militarization, corporate greed, and fascism globally. And now we're getting to a point where the train slowed down so much, it's almost come to a stop.

And we have enough people pushing back that now we can actually change the momentum and go the other way. That's what we're doing. So this is the line. We're not going to allow you to build capacity to train the front line that's going to mow down people standing up for their rights. This is the hard stuff that we're having right here. And now from that point, we're going to make sure that we have access to clean water in everybody's neighborhoods, including black and brown people, for a chance. everybody's neighborhoods, including black and brown people, for a chance. We're going to make sure that we have the basic necessities to live and care for one another so that we're not in a place of constant scarcity, just trying to make it to the next day on your hamster wheel where

we're being paid far less than what we're worth. We're going to make sure that all the necessities that we need to thrive in this world are spread among the people of this world. The profit of the earth is for all. And now that's the direction that the train will be going in from this point forward. But it starts right here. Absolutely. I could not have said it better. Our work is not done until we have just that. And that's what we're going to fight for. You've been listening to an Upstream conversation with Kiana Jones and Matthew Johnson,

organizers and activists involved with the Stop Cop City movement in Atlanta, Georgia. Thank you to Fugazi for the intermission music and to Zara Wilkins for the cover art. Upstream theme music was composed by Robert. To find links to any of the resources that we've mentioned in this interview, check out the show notes. And if you'd like to take a deep dive into the movement to defund and abolish the police, check out our audio documentary titled Abolish the Police, featuring many important stories and voices, including Alex Vitale, Kat Brooks, Kay Gabriel, Thank you. listeners and fans. Please visit upstreampodcast.org forward slash support to donate. And because we're fiscally sponsored by the nonprofit Independent Arts and Media, any donations you make from the

U.S. are tax exempt. Upstream is also made possible with support from the incredible folks at Resist Foundation. For more from us, please visit upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter and Instagram for updates and post-capitalist memes at Upstream Podcast. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And if you like what you hear, please give us a five-star rating and review. It really helps get Upstream in front of more eyes and into more ears. Thank you. you