Upstream - [TEASER] Alliance of Sahel States Pt. 3: Hyperimperialism and the Fight for Sovereignty w/ Mikaela Nhondo Erskog

Episode Date: September 16, 2025

This is a free preview of the episode "Alliance of Sahel States Pt. 3: Hyperimperialism w/ Mikaela Nhondo Erskog." You can listen to the full episode by subscribing to our Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/upstreampodcast As a Patreon subscriber you'll get access to at least one bonus episode a month (usually two or three), our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes, early access to certain episodes, and other benefits like stickers and bumper stickers—depending on which tier you subscribe to. access to bi-weekly bonus episodes ranging from conversations to readings and more. Signing up for Patreon is a great way to make Upstream a weekly show, and it will also give you access to our entire back catalog of Patreon episodes along with stickers and bumper stickers at certain subscription tiers. You’ll also be helping to keep Upstream sustainable and allowing us to keep this project going. In this episode, Part 3 of our series on the Alliance of Sahel States, Mikaela Nhondo Erskog joins us for a wideranging conversation about hyperimperialism and the Sahel's fight against it. We begin the conversation talking about the anti-LGBTQ law that was passed in Burkina Faso criminalizing "acts of homosexuality." We explore the law itself (part of a broader family code bill) and explore how we in the West can wrestle with the contradictions it presents. We then focus our conversation on hyperimperialism, looking at how Western Africa is responding to decades of colonialism and neocolonialism. We talk about what the decline of the US portends for the future of the Global South, the on-the-ground development projects that the AES is embarking on with Russia and China, how the AES and other states on the African continent are attempting to reverse decades of underdevelopment and unequal exchange, and much more.  Mikaela Nhondo Erskog is a researcher at Tricontinental. a doctoral student in International Relations at Fudan University in Shanghai, and regional coordinator of the International People's Assembly in Pan Africanism Today. Further resources: Tricontinental The Sahel Seeks Sovereignty Hyper-Imperialism: A Dangerous Decadent New Stage International People's Assembly Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) 2025 Yearbook Related episodes: Our onging series on the Alliance of Sahel States Imperialism, The Highest Stage of Capitalism w/ Breht O'Shea and Alyson Escalante Post Capitalist Parenting Pt. 3: A Dialectical Perspective w/ Breht O'Shea NATO Pt. 1: An Anti-Imperialist Introduction w/ Elina Xenophontos Third Worldism and the Bandung Spirit w/ Pranay Somayajula Listen to our ongoing series on China (Chinese) Socialism vs (U.S.) Capitalism Artwork: Soviet-era propaganda poster by Eduard Artsrunyan titled “Colonialism is Doomed!”  Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at  upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Instagram and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

A quick note before we jump into this Patreon episode. Thank you to all of our Patreon subscribers for making upstream possible. We genuinely couldn't do this without you. Your support allows us to create bonus content like this and provide most of our content for free so we can continue to offer political education media to the public and help to build our movement. Thank you, comrades. We hope you enjoy this conversation. Previously, one in three French light bulbs were being lit by the electricity generated from the uranium extracted from that region at a time in which most households, I think it's like one in nine households had access to their electricity grid, let alone had electricity at all,

and where, I think, 10 years ago, Niger's uranium export revenue, they were only receiving 13% of the export revenue, like 1-3%, was going back to the country. And so you wonder why they're unable to develop. They're not reaping the benefits of their natural resources. So when the call actually happened of a coupism process, it was people's organizations, those grassroots organizations who went out to the street to put forward their agenda for rejecting French imperialism and for proposing also a patriotic project. You're listening to Upstream. Upstream.

Upstream. Upstream. A show about political economy and society that invites you to unlearn everything you thought you knew about the world around. you. I'm Della Duncan. And I'm Robert Raymond. It was almost exactly two years ago today when the Alliance of Sahel States was formed. An alliance which has proven to the world that it is possible to buck off the yoke of imperialism and pursue a path towards sovereignty and development that does not pass through the frothing maw of the imperialist bloc. In this episode,

part three of our ongoing series on the Alliance of Sahel States, we're joined by Michaela Nando Erskog to advance our exploration of one of the most significant anti-imperialist regional multi-state projects on the globe. Michaela is a researcher at Tri-Continental, a doctoral student in international relations at Fundaan University in Shanghai, and regional coordinator of the International People's Assembly in Pan-Africanism, today. And now, here's Robert in conversation with Michaela. Michaela. It's a pleasure to have you on. Thank you for having me.

I love it if we could start with an introduction. So maybe if you could just introduce yourself for our listeners and tell us a little bit about the work that you do. Sure. So my name is Michaela and I am a researcher at the Tri-Continental Institute for Social Research, which is basically a kind of movement-driven research organization that serves the research interests and the kind of ideological battle of ideas playing for trade unions, left progressive organizations, peasant organizations in a network known as the International People's Assembly, which has over 200 different organizations from across largely the global self

that are basically have a kind of left progressive agenda. And so that's kind of where our work is focused on. I'm also, I'm based in China right now. I'm studying, doing my PhD at Fidan University in Shanghai, where I'm focused on international relations. So that kind of is my geopolitical focus. And I'm also part of the regional coordination of the IPA in an organization called Pan-Africanism today

that basically works on the African continental networking, educational agenda, et cetera. So, yeah, I'm also, in my heyday, I was considered myself a popular educator. So I do enjoy talking with comrades, with people who are interested in these kinds of subjects and having a rational debate about what's happening on the continent and in the world today.

Incredible. Yeah, thank you so much for that. You're doing such important work. And we could not be more grateful and rely more on the Tri-Continental's vast back catalog and your current pieces and dossiers and studies that you all are all constantly putting out. Such a great resource and then like a wealth of information. So thank you so much for the work that you do with them. And so today I want to spend most of our time. Of course, we're talking about the Alliance of Sahel States, and I want to spend most of our

time talking about hyper-imperialism, which is a term that we'll unpack and get into a little bit more as we go forth with the conversation. But I think we would be a little remiss if we did not touch on sort of what you might call like a more of a breaking news item that came out last week and was covered widely in the press, a new law passed in Burkina Faso, which criminalizes homosexuality. So I know a lot of people, a lot of listeners and followers of ours were thinking about this and were talking about it online and posting about it. And so I thought it would be kind of helpful maybe just to touch on it up top in case, you know, anybody is thinking about it in a really pressing way, and we can then move on to talk a little bit more about broader

questions of imperialism. But maybe just to start, tell us about what this law actually entails and, like, the bill that it was a part of more broadly, I think is some really important context. And then also, too, like, I'm particularly interested in the context of like how much support this law has within the population of Burkina Faso, because, you know, as an American, I'm very familiar with how many times, in fact, almost all the time, laws that are passed don't really reflect what me or the majority of the country are interested in. So I'm wondering what the dynamic there is. Like, is there opposition to it internally? Are there LGBTQ organizations or collectives in Burkina Faso that oppose it.

So I know I threw a lot at you there. So just like give me a sense of what you can and however you want to sort of tackle all of those questions. So I'm sure many of you, yourself included, your listeners included that when we saw this splash across the news headlines, it was quite devastating. And especially as, you know, people on the left who are trying to pursue a progressive agenda

where any forms of discrimination are not part of our, we only discriminate against capital and the elite. So I think that this was quite hard, especially in the circles and the people I work with, where there is an ongoing challenge and debate around the question of homosexuality, of different gender identities, because largely homophobia is a colonial import and comes with colonialism. The kind of criminalization of quote-unquote non-hitrosexual activities is part of a colonial legacy. And so, And not only that, it's also, I think, in the last 20 years, the Salafist part of Islam that comes from the Gulf that is a lot more conservative and has a more punitive approach to any kind of heterodoxy is also a part of the big influence. So just to put that in there, it's both, I think, a mixture of colonial history as well as religious conservatism.

Islam is a big part of life and culture in the region. But Islam of the recent Gulf predomination and orbit of the influence of Saudi Arabia is quite influential. Let's put it there. Then the other part, though, is that the framing, of course, and I think it's not coincidental that this made big headlines just, you know, a couple of weeks before on the 16th of September, it will be the second anniversary of the formation of the alliance of Sahel States, where they initially, in September of 2023, entered into a collective defense compact. And this was at the time when ECOWAS, the West African economic zone, was essentially threatening, through Nigeria, threatening to invade Niger militarily just after the third of the three military-led, you know, outsting of these kinds of neoliberal Western puppets, let's say. And so I'm putting this in context to say that the Alliance of

health states is having their anniversary very soon, it is a big political deal on the continent because it represents a kind of outright rejection of not only French imperialism, but imperialist projects on the continent. It's also a rejection of some of the more compromising organizations like ECOWAS and to an extent the African Union, where these kinds of regional organizations have not been able to deal with the social and economic and political problems that the African continent has faced post independence in the 60s. So I think it's interesting that this news came and comes in a very, you know, tailored and kind of myopic view where you're just seeing through a keyhole

but not seeing the bigger picture. So jumping to the bill itself is the law that was passed is called the Code of Persons and Family, which is essentially like a sweeping overhaul of Burkina Bay's civil law. And actually at first glance, you know, the document has this contradiction with this criminalization because the actual and the fact of the matter is now, and it previously wasn't criminalized, that now it's so-called any acts promoting so-called homosexual behavior are prohibited and can be punished with two to five years of imprisonment as well as some fines. I think it's like around two to ten million francs, which is serious. It's a very

serious thing. And there is opposition within not only the Burkina Bay civil society and various organizations linked to human rights and LGBTQI rights. But I think, and I was talking to a Nigerian leader of the left who has been part of important processes happening in Niger with the AES as well. And he was saying, well, you have to understand that one, this is also a failure of the left. The fact that we on the continent have been unable to just push for legal. rights for all people. I mean, this is across the continent. I mean, I'm sure some of your listeners would know about Uganda

a couple of years ago made homosexual behavior punishable by death. Like, this is part of like a bigger, I think, conservative push across the continent. But going back to the material basis of this is that

sad to say that this is the reality of the continent. And in many ways, the bill, its actual true intentionality, has to be seen in a bigger scope, which is that the bill itself is part of a draft code that has been in discussion for a couple of years now since I think 2022. And essentially it prohibits and punishes any kind of act of homosexuality where you can be in prison for two to five years and have huge fines that you have to pay for, which of course, like we on the left don't endorse

any form of discrimination, especially criminalizing what should actually be like acts of love and people's own preferences. But I think that what it has to be read in context, especially with folks who do support the AES and do want to understand what's happening, is that largely the main bill, the main essence and the main innovations behind it and why they decided to make this into a law is they're trying to modernize and stabilize a really unstable society. One is that part of the big push in this bill is to modernize state machinery, where essentially a big part of it is to create, you know, certain digital identity markers where your kind of registrations, birth certificates, et cetera, are better managed and to create like a centralized digital registry because prior to this, everything was pretty much analog. And so they're also trying to get a sense of how can we bring the whole population under the orbit of the government in a country and in a region. where there's a lot of instability based on the fact that there's jihadist extremists coming from the north, based on the fact that there's a lot of economic instability,

based on the fact that there's a lot of social instability in a moment and time when they're trying to pursue a national development project. And if you want to develop a nation, you actually have to have a sense of who's in the nation, who's part of the citizenry. So other elements to the bill that are actually quite important are, for example, there's more precision around citizenship and nationality, there's more precision around parental care roles, rights for children. They lowered the age of majority for minors to 18 from 20, and part of it is that the mean age in Africa is 19. So they're also trying to adjust to the

reality of their population and bring more young people into the working force and into the laboring force. And if we look at it from, you know, I'm somewhat a student of Marxism, And one of the key texts that I always reference when I'm trying to think about society is angles on the origin of the family, the private property and the state. Part of it is that the basic unit of society is fundamentally tied to the mode of production and social reproduction. And right now they have a crisis both of the mode of production as well as social reproduction. So family is where labor power is reproduced, where social norms are instilled and where, you know, properties transmitted. And so a lot of the code in many ways is implicitly trying to address the fact that the nation state is facing an existential crisis and they're trying to control and stabilize the basic unit in their society. And this is also a question of national security.

Part of the reform that they've created is that foreigners can only get permanent residency after, I think it's a five to 10 year period. And there's certain exceptions around, you know, if you're promoting national interests, et cetera. or have a certain level of capital investment that is promoting national development project. But essentially, they're really concerned about being infiltrated. And one of the regressive elements that I do think is something we need to improve and fight on the left is part of the rejection is also a rejection of so-called Western values. And unfortunately, that often falls under the orbit of homosexuality being wrongly associated with a Western import, when it's homophobia that is the Western import. And I spoke to this senior leader in Niger, and he was also talking about how, like, transgender people are generally not ostracized in West African society, generally enjoy the same rights as everyone else, but that the influence of Islam and colonialism has created this disproportionate demonization of homosexuality, and also particularly because of this productive question of, are you producing citizens and members of society that can build the nation? So in many ways, it's a material reality.

Homophobia is widespread, but I think that there are certain elements to the bill, and I'm sorry if I'm going this into quite a lot of length and a lot of detail, but I think it's important for people on the left and supporters of the AES to see what the bigger picture is. And also to understand that they're responding to the concrete reality and to concrete sentiments. And for example, and I've been trying to speak about this in a progressive way with other comrades, but it's hard for me because the question of, for example, polygamy has been legalized. Essentially, from 1989, when the first code was written, which was largely based on the kind of Western neoliberal model of human rights, etc.,

monogamy was considered to be the only form of marriage regime and legalized. But polygamy continued and is widely pervasive. In Burkina Faso, I think it's like 36% of households are under polygamous marriages, and it's higher than other countries that border it, like Mali and Nileg and, Niger and others, but part of it is not to necessarily endorse the kind of patriarchal, multiple women under one man. It's more to bring it within the orbit so that greater restrictions and greater coordination can happen in what is largely a pervasive practice that was ignored in the 1989 bill. So they're trying to again bring into their orbit already pervasive practices

so that they can better manage what is a fundamentally, like, crisis mode. They're in crisis mode. And so other elements to the bill that are really important are, for example, rights for stateless people and kind of crisis resilience things where if there's a natural disaster or if there's some kind of a conflict, citizens have recourse to government services, even when they don't necessarily have, like you're not close to an urban center where you can, you know, go to the legal infrastructure of the government. So that makes the government have a stronger onus to reach out to the citizens

and to service the citizens, essentially. So I know this is like a long story short, and we by no means accept a policy of discrimination, because I think that we can endorse and support the progressive agenda and processes that are happening in the AES, and I think we'll talk about some of them shortly, without necessarily accepting every single policy. And it still is up to us to continue to push for,

and we being the international left, to push and try to help our comrades in the region to push the agenda of equality. But I think it's important for folks to understand that this is one piece in a bigger picture in a society that's fundamentally fighting for its survival in a moment when I'm sure a lot of people have heard, and I think you mentioned this in previous podcast

with one of the guests that Ibrahim Traore has been tried to be outstead and assassinated multiple, multiple times, dozen and dozens of times in the last two years. So they're definitely in crisis mode. And this is what the bill is largely responding to you. Well, I really appreciate the context and you telling us what the intention of the bill is. And I think we can still be very critical while also having, you know, some context and understanding some of these intentions. And I especially think it's really interesting to think about how, you know, homophobia is a colonial import, like you were saying, and I agree with that completely. And then this view among the population that homosexuality is a Western import when really it's homophobia, which is a Western import. So that's just a really fascinating sort of contradiction and a sort of twist to this whole situation.

And it brings me to something I'll get into a little bit more in a second, but the fact that imperialism is the primary contradiction and a lot of these things can be traced back to imperialism. And yeah, I mean, with that being said, I also have to say that, you know, when I saw the headlines on this, I was also really devastated, you know, and I think that, yeah, I mean, that's the language you used, I believe. And I definitely felt the same way. And I had to take a step back and really sort of like ask myself, you know, wrestle with this idea, like what is happening in the AES, right? Like, is this is this a socialist project is it a move towards a socialist state or is it a national liberation project because those are two very different things and and they can overlap obviously

but liberation from imperialism is a necessary step in order to institute socialism which is our goal right and if a state follows a socialist path to anti-imperious liberation then that's great. That is the ideal, right? But that's not always going to be the case. And I think it's important to remember that, again, imperialism is the primary contradiction. And these states and these state projects have very, very specific goals in mind. Like you mentioned, it's to liberate themselves from Western hegemony and develop their productive forces and lift their populations out of poverty. And so when I and many, others on the Western left look at projects like the AES. It's easy to project kind of like a whole

lot onto them, right? Like when in reality, this is a bit unfair for us to do. Of course, we can still be critical of reactionary or, you know, regressive laws and ideas in the population of Barquina Faso. And we can criticize those laws. But we have to do so within the context that like, you know, you so helpfully shared with us. And also with the understanding that these are anti-imperialist national sovereignty projects. They are not yet socialist projects. And of course, we all have a role to play in making sure that, you know, they don't take a reactionary path. And I think there is a role for us here in the West to be vocal about that. But our primary goal should be to help free up the space for these projects to liberate themselves from the states who are subjugating them

with our tax dollars and of course to also support the left in these states who they know the situation on the ground better than we ever could and who are pushing a left agenda, right? Like, you know, those groups that are pushing a left agenda and like those elders that you were speaking about, like that must include LGBTQ rights and liberation as well and we need to support those groups as well while supporting the state in its project of liberation. So critical support, right, but still support, not abandonment because we don't agree with certain important elements of the project and just remembering that this is not a zero-sum game.

And I think that most of our listeners do understand this and just really want, you know, more information and to understand the context a little bit more. and I think your response was really helpful with that. So thank you again for tackling that up front. And I think maybe now we can move forward with the conversation. Can you talk a little bit about, I guess, sort of the specific ways that neoliberal, neo-colonial control of the Sahel worked

before Mali, Niger, and Burkina Faso began breaking the chains of empire. Like, I'm thinking specifically of some of the examples written about in the recent Tri-Continental dossier titled Issael Sikhs sovereignty. So in that dossier, you mentioned the CFA Frank, for example, colonial debt regimes, and, of course, military dominance by France, but also U.S. military presence under the pretext of combating terrorism. So, yeah, maybe lay all of that out for us. So we tried to introduce some of the mechanisms of control that had preceded the AES and the processes of popular revolt.

But the dossier is by no means comprehensive. We just wanted to give a kind of overall picture, especially since these countries have had different historical trajectories. With Mali, there was a socialist project in the 60s that was really important that I think has had some level of what some of us call socialist residue or resists. residual. Niger is a highly underdeveloped country. I was there in November last year for a meeting of solidarity with the people of the Sahel. And, you know, you come into Nyami, the capital, and the largest buildings are, one, the Radisson Blue, which just was built like a couple of years ago, because there is kind of more Indian and Turkish construction and projects coming in. And I think it's largely for those people who are using it.

And then the next and largest complex is actually the U.S. Embassy. And I was there in November, and I was right next to the former French embassy, which was huge, but luckily it was totally dark, completely, you know, offline. But when you go through the city of Niami, most of the streets are extremely poorly lit. Most folks are using solar panel lighting essentially to, you know, see in the dark. and this is just like people's personal private, but there's really no infrastructure in what you would consider a capital city

to have access to or should have access to. And this is largely due to the fact that, and I don't think it's hyperbolic to say that French colonialism really did a number on a lot of West African countries. And this is largely due to the fact that in the 60s, when finally the French accepted to kind of negotiate around the question

of national independence, most African countries, except for Guinea, who basically voted, there was a referendum in 1958 that the goal put out, which said, basically, you can leave and we're going to leave you high and dry, or we can have a kind of slow decoupling, if you will, based on our terms and our interests. And a lot of the countries, like Niger, had big mass support through a party he was leading this process called Sawaba, that was a left, organization that were saying, no, we will, we want to cut ties and like Guinea, say no to this kind of slow decoupling. But most countries were put under extreme pressure, and including Niger, where a lot of the domestic support for full liberation was completely squashed through

forms of domestic, like terrorism, threats, acts of essentially putting people in a corner where it didn't have much maneuvering room. And so a lot of the populace. sentiment was completely squashed and most African countries except for Guinea had to go with the yes to slowly, quote unquote, decouple. And this decoupling wasn't a decoupling. It was a rewriting of some of the legal codes and agreements that subsumed a lot of the dependency within a kind of more liberal framework. So one example is the, of course, the CFA Frank, where this is a cornerstone of France's continued dominance in the region, where it's a currency system that effectively outsources the monetary sovereignty of most of these countries to Paris,

where the currency is denominated by the French currency and the French treasury. And so if you're going through a process of crisis, if you want to offset the fact that your exports need to be, you know, lower the price to be more competitive in the international market, you have no room to set the prices or to set any controls or, you know, to deal with any inflation issues without having to consult essentially the French Treasury. And so this neocolonial process continued. And one of the things we mentioned in the dossier is that one of the agreements Niger signed in 1961 was a defense agreement that essentially allowed for French, even though it's a military

agreement, that initially you can see the very clear ways in which the French military was allowed to operate and use public infrastructure for its own interests. But it also has economic terms of reference and terms of agreement subsumed within it, for example, that a lot of French companies basically were tax exempt from, if you're doing a big mining in Niger and uranium, you were basically tax exempt because it was called like a double taxation where if you're paying taxes in France, they don't want to pay taxes again in Niger. So without taxes, the country has no public revenue and the coffers are empty. then you also had things like France could basically intervene and if Niger wanted to open up new trade routes to export the uranium, they had to consult the French because there was a kind of small, in tiny handwriting, basically saying that if it's against the French military interests,

aka the French political and economic interests, then they had to consult, in quotes, the French. So those kinds of agreements lasted up until the 90s, And so for decades, the monetary and therefore the political sovereignty of the country was completely subordinate to French interests. And I mean, in terms of like, you know, debt, et cetera, in this 1961 agreement, one of the things that was allowed to happen is essentially also that one of the, I think the most despicable things is that Niger and many African countries, and this is the history of colonialism across the world, ended up having to pay for the debt incurred on public infrastructure that was essentially created to service colonial trade routes and the kind of colonial system.

And it was also produced through forced labor and forms of coerced labor. And so right from the jump, when a lot of countries were experiencing so-called flag independence, they were, first of all, made to pay back public debt that was essentially incurred during a process, of colonial infrastructure being built. Then the other part is that, of course,

without having any kind of economic sovereignty, there's been a process of underdevelopment and underfunding of the public revenue. Not being able to generate public revenue means you can't pay for basic public services. And therefore, this has trapped people in the kind of structural adjustment programs we saw in the 80s.

And once you take a loan, it becomes this horrible cycle of always having to pay back because you never are actually developing the conditions in which you have any form of revenue generation. So it just becomes a cycle of taking on more debt and more debt and more debt. And the cycle of debt independence, you basically ensured that the economic policies of a lot of the countries in the Sahel remain subservient to neoliberal policies. This was a clip from our Patreon episode with Michaela Nando Erskog. You can listen to the full episode by becoming an upstream patron.

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