Utilizing Tech - Season 7: AI Data Infrastructure Presented by Solidigm - 05x02: Stakeholder Demands at the Retail Edge with Simon Gamble of Mako Networks

Episode Date: May 8, 2023

Edge has many different stakeholders, applications, and needs, and this is especially true in distributed retail environments. This episode of Utilizing Edge features Simon Gamble of Mako Networks talking with Brian Chambers and Stephen Foskett about the complexities of technology at the retail edge. The key according to Gamble is segmentation of brands, franchisees, and technical applications. In some cases a single location might even include multiple separate companies or tenants under the same roof. Video, sensors, IoT, and location-based services are coming to retail locations as well, and some of these leverage outside service providers as well. Although sharing infrastructure is desirable, segmentation and security is key. Retail edge environments are increasingly complicated, but there are many ways to consolidate, converge, and standardize to make them practical to implement. Hosts: Stephen Foskett: https://www.twitter.com/SFoskett Brian Chamber: https://www.twitter.com/BriChamb Mako Networks Representative: Simon Gamble, President of Mako Networks: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simongnz/ Follow Gestalt IT and Utilizing TechWebsite: https://www.UtilizingTech.com/Website: https://www.GestaltIT.com/Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/GestaltITLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/gestalt-it/ Tags: #UtilizingEdge, #EdgeComputing, #RetailEdge, #Edge, @GestaltIT, @MakoNetworks

Welcome to Utilizing Tech, the podcast about emerging technology from Gestalt IT. This season of Utilizing Tech focuses on edge computing, which demands a new approach to compute, storage, networking, and more. I'm your host, Stephen Foskett, organizer of Tech Field Day and publisher of Gestalt IT. Joining me today as my co-host is Brian Chambers. Hey, I'm Brian Chambers. I lead the enterprise architecture practice for Chick-fil-A. We do a lot of work at the edge. I write about technology at brianchambers.substack.com. And as for me, you can find me as the host, of course, of Utilizing Tech, but also of

the On-Premise IT Podcast, as well as the weekly Gestalt IT News Rundown. So Brian, you and I participated in Edge Field Day recently. We also, of course, have been talking about planning for this particular podcast series here, Utilizing Edge. And one of the things that came up is the fact that the Edge is, well, one of the things that makes the Edge, especially retail edge, very different is the fact that, you know, it's not that sort of regimented top down traditional corporate architecture. In many cases, you've got different people, different demands, different constituencies, different applications, all sorts of differences in terms of who's doing what and why. And we've got to figure out how we deal with all these people, right? Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I think the edge has a whole different group of stakeholders who are dependent on its services. And on top of that, there's a number of people that we're used to having available in an IT environment, in a data center, even people who work on services in the cloud where they're usually more developer accessible, that we just don't have at the edge. So in my environment at Chick-fil-A, the people we have in our environment where the edge lives

are people who work on prepping food and cooking things and serving customers. But we don't have anyone there who has that traditional IT skillset. We don't have system administrators, and it's not really viable for us to do a model where we have to deploy them across 2,800 plus restaurants across our chain in order to resolve issues. So it's very different and brings a whole new set of challenges that's different as a result. Yeah. One of the things I think that came up at Edgefield Day when we were talking to Mako Networks was not the specifics around the networking, which is great by all means. But the fact that you need different connections, different solutions, different ways of connecting with different applications back to, I guess, different motherships. And it's all very, very confusing. That's why we wanted to bring in Simon Gamble from Mako Networks here

to talk to us on utilizing Edge. Simon, this is one of the things you brought up in the Edge Field Day presentation. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. Thanks, everybody, for joining us today. So as I said, you talked about this. And again, the interesting angle here is that it wasn't really a technology angle so much as an organizational thing, a unique aspect of retail at the edge. Tell us kind of what you told us then, and let's talk about it.

Yeah, sure. Distributed retail enterprises have their own unique challenges. They're often very, very large organizations, and they're often franchised. And the franchise groups themselves can sometimes be as big if not bigger than the main retail brand. They have their own desires and wants for the technologies being deployed at their edge, as well as the desire that may conflict with the desires that the brand has for the technology at the edge. So being able to accommodate all parties in these pretty complicated environments is really

important to have a successful technology deployment and to be able to give people the flexibility to use the technology for the purposes they wish. But really, at the end of the day, still adhering to a brand standard that is often primarily aimed at protecting customer data at the edge. Yeah, I completely agree with you. I think it's a very interesting dynamic and it probably depends a lot on the business that we're talking about. Right. Like if you have the the big franchisee in a retail world that maybe is very particular about what they want to spend on technology and what their footprint is going to look like, what they're willing to do. And then you have a new set of capabilities you want to introduce. But it's across a very heterogeneous environment, that's going to be

challenging. So how do you bring an appropriate degree of standardization to that? Are there solutions that you've seen in particular that you've been really happy with? That question, I guess, to either one of you, is there stuff out there that you've seen that you feel like starts to solve that problem, maybe by bringing a good balance between giving autonomy, decision-making to a franchisee or a location owner while still bringing enough standardization to actually build some sort of platform or something that's useful that doesn't have that wild west feel, that doesn't have all the concerns and challenges of almost everything is different in every single footprint. What have you guys seen that is doing that and places maybe where they've been successful

applying that sort of pattern? Yeah, I'm going to come from a pretty one-sided perspective and that's obviously the Mako one because we do deploy technology like that. And I think the key is segmentation. And another issue that we see at these big distributed retail enterprises that I didn't already mention is often these franchisees own different brands within the same industry as well.

If you're in oil and gas, these big franchise groups will own different brands of gas stations. If you're in quick serve restaurants, they'll own different QSR brands across their own estate. And we believe the way to do it is through segmentation. So properly segmenting the areas of the network that are important to the franchisee from the areas that are important to the brand. And that allows the brand to get their standard deployed properly in the parts of the network that matter to them. And it leaves the rest of the network that matters to the franchisee to be under their control. And if I were to overly simplify things, I would say typically it's point of sale and front of house networks that the brand wants to keep under control. And it's typically back office networks that the franchise groups want to keep

under control. Yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned this, Simon, because it really is almost a matrix here where you have multiple owners, multiple brands, multiple franchisees, and of course, multiple applications. Because part of your segmentation discussion as well was the fact that your payment processing system really needs to be segmented from your inventory control system or your HR system for legal technical reasons. But also, as you mentioned, I think that this is really key for organizational reasons, because it's very possible that the franchisee might have their own payment processor that they need to use across their various locations, whether it's restaurants or retail. And I think that this is something that is very different

about Edge. And those of us who are listening to this who come from more of an enterprise background may be kind of looking at this in terms of, oh, well, so there's different application owners, there are different groups within the companies, different stakeholders within the companies. So we can kind of see where this is coming from. But to those people, I'm just going to say, hang on, because you cannot imagine, I think, how different it is when, you know, at the end of the day, all those people have the same boss. And at the end of the day, all these people don't have the same boss. And I think that's a very, very big change. Yeah.

And those people often have multiple bosses. I mean, if you're a franchisee, in some ways, the brand is your boss, but also your own organization is your boss. So you're reporting to multiple people and you're trying to achieve multiple things. As you said, Stephen, enterprises are typically segmenting networks up primarily based around security. I want to keep my credit card data off my VoIP network, for example. But in a distributed retail enterprise, you're also segmenting because of different organizations, different applications. So the decision and the choice of how to segment is much more complicated. And you need to leave yourself the flexibility to make modifications over time. As new technologies come along, as you're wanting to do different things in the retail environment,

if you're wanting to connect the store to different applications, either in the cloud or in physical data centers, you can't paint yourself into a corner on day one because technology delivers amazing things to retail and retail customers and brands and franchisees need to leave themselves open to be able to adapt to new technologies and bring them into their environment when they want to. Also to keep them out. In some markets there's a lot of third-party app providers that will try and go around the brand and put their own technology into a retail location to cater to things like home delivery, maybe advertising menus online. And the brand might not want that. So giving the brand the power to stop that stuff from happening, to stop them from being circumvented by a third party is also important. So, yeah, point being, distributed retail is really, really tough because there's so many different people involved.

Yeah, it occurs to me that some of that stuff they may actually want to. And I know, again, this is one of those unusual aspects of retail stores, especially. A lot of them have sort of subtenants where they'll have, you know, maybe it's a different company that owns the pharmacy. Or maybe it's sort of like a different company supplies the dairy and frozen foods than supplies the, you know, boxed foods or things like that. I mean, so you as a consumer think, oh, I'm going to such and such store, but instead you're walking in and encountering almost a mall of different of different things with different agreements. Like you said, certainly the brand may not want that, but they also might want that and they might want to enable that. And so that's

kind of the flip side of this. Do you see that as well, where brands are coming to you and saying, look, we have to allow this completely different company access to the same connectivity, the same physical locations. We have to be able to make that happen, but we don't want it to touch us. Yeah. I mean, the example you gave of pharmacy is a great one. So, you know, most main major pharmacy chains, the pharmacy is different from the rest of the store and the pharmacy might only be a really small part of the store. So there's two separate businesses under one roof. You see that all the time. Gas stations, the same. They might have a quick serve restaurant or a sandwich shop or a coffee shop in there. And that's a completely separate business run by different organizations with different IT needs. Sometimes

like with the pharmacies, that separation is decided ahead of time um and you know it's part of their business other other times it's it's just something that a franchisee puts in there and the main brand has to accommodate it so yeah gets even more complicated um but yeah if if uh if you choose technologies that that can accommodate that type of scenario, then not wanting to repeat myself, but you're not painting yourself into a corner. So for the, and most of these brands know this, they're used to it.

They've been working in it all day, every day. It's just hard to find technologies that can accommodate them because technologies that are typically aimed at an enterprise often try and squeeze themselves into a distributed enterprise and in particular distributed retail enterprise. And they don't fit the different products for different different needs. Yeah, I think you're we're starting to touch on something I think is interesting about the edge that we maybe haven't gotten into as much, which is the different degrees to which the edge requires multi-tenancy, right? And obviously we've talked about segmentation a bit. That's where that becomes valuable. But multi-tenancy is very interesting because in kind of one extreme, say to the far left,

you've got cases that are actually similar to ours where we kind of own our environment holistically in a restaurant. We can do kind of whatever we want with it. And we have multiple tenants, but they're all internal teams that are building applications specifically for our business and for our restaurants. And so we have a lot of control over that. And we have certain things that we don't have to be quite as concerned about from a security perspective, because we own that environment outright. It's in our space, et cetera. Now, if we flip over to kind of the far right of the spectrum, you could have these environments where you have two, three,

four plus different businesses all sharing some degree of infrastructure, possibly for compute for these workloads. And that raises a whole new set of challenges, which is really interesting. In addition to segmentation, what are you guys seeing in that space? And what are you finding interesting in terms of challenges and solutions that exist yeah well i mean segmentation is key um sending data to to different locations for processing as well as doing it at the edge is is we see as um something that's growing.

Data processing for both information purposes and monetization are things we're seeing in different industries. The point of sale data that traditionally has really just been used for accounting purposes in big retail is now being used for monetization. If you think grocery or convenience stores, for example, there's limited shelf space and they're supplied by these big consumer packaged goods companies

that want sales data because it allows them to do things like modify packaging and see what sort of impact it has at locations, getting locations to put product on different shelf areas and seeing what impact that has. But they can't get real-time information without paying the retailer for the data out of their POS systems. And from a retailer's perspective, they can get quite good revenue from selling that data. There's obviously concerns and cautions that need

to be taken around sending too much information and sharing too much information. But that's an example I see that I think is quite interesting for a lot of retailers for sending data away from the edge and it needs to be done in a secure manner. Then there are other really smart things that I see being done at the edge by analyzing video. So most retail locations have lots of video cameras around. And that information is really heavy. It's a big data cost to sending that into the cloud for analysis. So you can do the compute at the edge and you can then send just the data streams into the cloud for combining information

across multiple stores and businesses can get a lot of really useful information about that if you think of a gas station how many people never come in to the store so how many people are in the forecourt how many people come in the store and of those people that come in where do they walk in the store and what do they buy and retailers can use information from the video processing to see if i change my shelf layout what happens if i move things around what happens so they can get that information for themselves as well so it's two different types of data being processed in different places to the retailer and the brand's benefit so i see those things really starting to

accelerate and a lot of that is because the price of computing has come down. So retailers can afford to do that sort of stuff now, whereas five years ago, it sounded like a great idea. But when when priced up, it was, it was just too expensive. And I think as compute price, the price of compute continues to lower, businesses will be able to do a lot of really interesting things with data that they own that's theirs both monetization wise and in terms of getting information that helps their business i think you hit a really great point there simon about the big data payloads and the potential to do things that are just not possible to do otherwise by shifting that compute to the edge i think you hit camera vision, which is a huge use case, but it just seems like we're going to live in a world

where more and more of the things that are involved in every single business, be they retail, manufacturing, oil fields, whatever else the case may be, it's going to be a more and more rich data environment. And we're probably going to see more and more different types of data sets that are very large, very big, video, image intensive things. And I just think that is going to be a critical thing that we're able to leverage that edge capability to do a lot of processing. We share the things that we need back to the cloud and all is well there. But we can also use those things operationally, which I think is a critical differentiation. We can use them in our business, even if we're offline, when we have that compute at the edge.

So I think you hit on something that's really big and important there that I'm seeing emerging a lot in the edge as well. Yeah. We see a lot of that video compute not only being used for analyzing customer flow and things, but also reducing in-house shrinkage. So if you can overlay POS data on top of a video stream, you can see if someone at a bar is pocketing money. You can see if someone's handing out too much change on a regular basis to people. There's a lot of stuff that you can do with that that makes it affordable

to keep an eye on things and automates it at scale. These businesses tend to be pretty large. And a lot of the industries we work in, the sort of the mom and dad stores are really going away. For a lot of these big distributed retail enterprises, they used to be made up of a lot of little mom and dad companies. Now we see in all types of verticals that changing. And a lot of these mom and dad businesses are either acquiring the other mom and dad businesses around them or they're being acquired themselves. And so that big data piece is getting bigger.

And I have to say, like 10, 15 years ago when that term big data started coming around, it kind of scared me a bit. I thought, man, how do people deal with this? And whilst I just said, hey, these guys are starting to combine and these companies are getting bigger, the price of compute coming down means that stuff is also open to smaller businesses so small companies that are starting out that want to one day get big that stuff's no longer off limits to them you don't have to be a

colossus organization to get benefit from this stuff but it it makes it easy it makes it the price of computers making it easy for smaller businesses to get the benefits of this analysis. And it's also making it more efficient for large organizations to make sense of it. Because the problem that bigger organizations had

is so much data was going into places that you couldn't analyze it. You couldn't look at it. You couldn't understand it. Couldn't make sense of it too much. Just falling out of the bucket. And for bigger organizations, they're now getting really clear pictures about what's going on. There's third-party companies starting to appear that'll do it for you.

So you don't have to do it all yourself. If your business is serving high-quality fried chicken meals to customers that they really love, you don't necessarily have to be a data analysis organization as well. In fact, you probably shouldn't. It's probably more efficient for you to do some of it in-house. But outsourcing stuff is really important too. And organizations that are analyzing data at scale can often do it cheaper, faster, better than you can do things in-house.

Certainly in my opinion. So I want to bring in another application that we see a lot at retail, and that is location based services. And, and basically the the collision of Wi Fi for customers for customer use, apps, and memberships, and hyper location services. And we have seen this at our mobility field day events quite a lot, where companies are preparing solutions for retail, especially, that are designed to basically, as you were just saying, Simon, with this whole big data and customer

customization, custom experiences, where businesses are rolling out these solutions that would basically track people throughout the store. I guess you could say that it's to improve customer experience, but we know that it's actually to improve retail results, let's say that. And a lot of this stuff is either handled, as you said, by a third party provider, or is handled through basically, quote, free Wi-Fi. Is that something that you think is sharing the same infrastructure? And Brian, this is legit question for you too. I mean, do you think that that stuff would be sharing the same infrastructure? And Brian, this is a legit question for you too. I mean, do you think that that stuff would be sharing the same infrastructure

as point of sale, credit card processing, et cetera, or do you think that this would be entirely separate infrastructure? I tend to think that segmentation is key again. I think it probably depends. In some cases, customer Wi-Fi might be sharing certain elements of network architecture, but then have some really clear separation from things that are operational and business critical. And in other cases, it could be a completely separate solution.

I know in the United States, we have a ton of companies that they have services that are just offering customer Wi-Fi. So you could partner with them and they'll take care of it, right? It might be a separate circuit even that all that traffic is going over. I'm curious to see what Simon's seeing and thinking about. But I think no matter what the solution, whether it's separate or they're sharing, we'll go back to our phrase of the show so far, which is segmentation is key. What do you think, Simon? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think at scale, you want to share as much as possible. It drives costs down significantly, but you need to segment as appropriate. So guest Wi-Fi shouldn't be anywhere near point of sale, for example. But there's no reason it can't share the same equipment if it's as long as it's secure. And, you know, the bigger you get the more saving $1 a month at each store across 10,000 locations makes a difference, you know. So we see a lot of shared infrastructure, we deploy a lot of shared infrastructure. I also want to point out you're getting that data. I see a lot of demos from from new from new companies that are saying, hey, we can help you analyze customer flow through a store. And we might do that by having three Wi-Fi access points and triangulating where people are moving, etc, etc. on is watching that data live and in real time because it's kind of intriguing but in reality no one's going to be sitting there watching that stuff in real time so you need to have an

executive summary that comes out once a day week month um for it to actually be value to an valuable to an organization so yeah i just say people need to be careful about looking at the there's a very big difference between looking at a single site in real time for 10 minutes while someone's demoing technology to you versus looking at your entire estate in a way that you can actually make sense of. Yeah. What, what sells and what works operationally are sometimes two very different things for a tournament.

Exactly. But you know, if you can, it's an old, it's an old story, but if you can get, if you can get budget out of marketing to pay for an, for an it spend, that can be good too. And that's, that's why a lot of these things exist because if it straight struggling for money and marketing has got a pile sitting there, then, you know, you can, you can get some money out of them. But a lot, a lot of those, a lot of the marketing bells and whistles can't be utilized properly. So people need to think about it.

Yeah, and it is pretty scary to think about basically crossing the streams and having guest Wi Fi, able to access, you know, important behind the scenes retail applications. But that being said, I think that it's also inevitable that that's going to be happening, that they will share infrastructure. So I think that it requires extreme levels of security. There was a highly publicized situation of sort of a sitting in the in the parking lot, hacking over the Wi-Fi at a retail company. And that is not at all uncommon. Anyone who's been to DEF CON knows about some of that stuff. But yeah, I think that it's pretty

scary from a technical perspective to think about crossing those streams. It's also scary, I think, from a consumer perspective to think about all this data that's being collected. But I don't think that we're going to be able to be stuffed that genie in the bottle because of what you just said, Simon, which is it kind of comes down to budgets and the way that these things are sold. I think a lot of companies look at localization

and location-based services and customized ads and things like that as a way to basically make a lot of this edge IT pay for itself or even more become a profit center. And in many cases, that's working. I think that if you look at some of these large retailers, many of them are making money, like real money, real profit off of the IT infrastructure they have in their stores nowadays, whether it's through partner-based advertising, multiple tenants, as we said, loyalty programs

slash customer location services, et cetera. But it's not all bad. I think that also some companies are also using these to improve customer service and to make customers happy. You know, I know that increasingly we're seeing distributed purchasing where you can basically buy something from anywhere in the store. And at restaurants as well, we're definitely seeing at quick serve restaurants, a proliferation of self-service ordering, roving ordering, as I know, Brian, that you guys have implemented as well, where people are ordering from places that you wouldn't think, you know, from the driveway, from the, you know, outside. And that actually improves customer service. And

I think that customers really appreciate those applications. So maybe we can shift gears a little bit. Yes, some of this stuff is scary, but some of this stuff is helpful too, right? Yeah, I think ultimately it all has to be helpful. I mean, everybody in business, no matter what vertical you're in, is in business to make money. That's what business is about. But, you know, your most important asset are people, whether it's internal people or customers that come back to you. So if you scare off your employees or your customers, you're not going to be making money in business for very long.

So these things have a way of self-repair. There are some dodgy people around that come up with technologies that maybe are more of a scam than not, but they don't last very long. And anyone that's been in business for a decent period of time knows you have to look after your customers and your employees. So yeah, everybody needs to be aware, but as a consumer, speaking as a consumer, I'm not particularly worried about a lot of this stuff. I have some cautious skepticism about a lot of technologies, but I think by and large, these things are for the best.

Yeah, I don't have the answer to this one, but I think we're in an interesting intersection where everybody wants the best possible customer experience, which look across all businesses. And there's almost always a digital, you know, mobile application or person using technology. There's some technology in the mix of that, like that value chain, that customer experience, whatever it looks like. So at the intersection of that, where people are actually demanding that, that's what people seem to want is convenience and, you know,

fast service and all those kinds of things. Then we've got on the other side, privacy and being able to respect the wishes of people from a privacy perspective. There's a ton of laws about that, obviously, both, you know, in Europe and the United States, among other places. So we've got these two sort of like different ends of the spectrum. And then ultimately have to figure out how do we mash those together, honor people's desires on both sides, and then still do what you're saying, Simon, which is still run a business and hopefully still have a degree to where people can connect with other people in the service aspect. So I think it's a very interesting intersection. And those two spectrums, I think, are going to keep kind of butting heads with each other and running into each other a little bit for a while. But I do share your optimism that I think these are things

that can be worked out over time. And I think there's ways to find solutions to respect both privacy and to meet that customer service and customer experience expectation. Yeah, I agree, Brian. And it really sums up our conversation today. Complication. For these big distributed retail enterprises, the networks are complicated, the solutions that are being delivered are complicated, the considerations that everyone has to take about how this impacts internal and external people coming into and out of the business.

And I think if I had to summarize our conversation today, and I've said this before on a couple of other conversations like this, it's think. Think about what you want to do. Think about all of the inputs and outputs that you're wanting to do, and you'll find a solution. Work with partners that work with organizations like yours and have some experience.

Talk to your own people that have done this before. Think about what you want to achieve and you'll have a great technology in your business. You'll have great edge. You'll have happy customers and hopefully you make more money. I think that's a great way to wrap it up there, Simon. And thank you so much for this conversation.

Frankly, you've given us a lot to think about. And this to me, again, was my takeaway from the Mako presentation from Edge Field Day. Yeah, it was great to learn about what the product does, again, was my takeaway from the Mako presentation from Edge Field Day. Yeah, it was great to learn about what the product does, but it was also, and I think maybe more valuable to think about the unique aspects of these environments and how that demands a different solution. And it kind of comes down to it.

You know, I guess if I had sort of a thing that I'm always looking for with products, it's not about how cool the technology is. It's about how well the technology solves the specific challenges of a specific environment. And so that's why I think we need special purpose products, special purpose solutions for edge. And we can't just throw in whatever worked in the data center, whatever worked in the campus, whatever worked in the cloud, whatever worked previously. We have to try to find a solution that meets the specific needs, whether it's multiple tenants under one roof,

whether it's the conflicting demands of the brand versus a franchisee, whether it's, you know, the kind of data collection that's happening with consumers, whether it's offering new solutions, new levels of customer service to those people, all of these things require specific new solutions. And so it's really been an interesting conversation.

Before we go, Simon, where can we connect with you and continue this conversation on Edge? Well, you can find both me and Mako at LinkedIn, also at makonetworks.com. And there's some other discussions and things that you can find in the Gestalt IT Tech Notes series as well. Yeah, thanks. And we'll link to those in the show notes too. Brian, is there anything new going on with you? Nothing too much. I continue to do my normal weekly newsletter,

brianchambers.substack.com. It's called the Chamber of Tech Secrets. So having a lot of fun with that and getting some good engagement from the community. So love to have you follow me there. I'm also around on Twitter, B-R-I-C-H-A-M-B. And then on LinkedIn as well, Brian Chambers. I got that name at least among the others. So I'd love to connect with folks and talk more about this kind of stuff. Love all the things that are going on in the Edge environment and all the unique problems that

people are working on solving there. Yeah, thanks, Brian and Simon. And thank you for listening to Utilizing Edge. This is part of the Utilizing Tech podcast series. If you enjoyed this discussion, please do subscribe. You'll find us in all of your favorite podcast locations. You'll also find video of these on YouTube. Just go to YouTube slash Gestalt IT video and you can see those. Also, you might want to check out Tech Field Day and specifically Edge Field Day,

where we heard from Mako and we learned a little bit more about their specifics along with a bunch of other companies. And we'll be returning in July with another Edge Field Day event. This episode is brought to you by gestaltit.com, your home for IT coverage from across the enterprise. For show notes and more episodes,

go to utilizingtech.com or find us on Twitter or Mastodon at Utilizing Tech. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week. Thanks, everyone.