Video Gamers Podcast - Composing Fear – Tobias Lilja on Little Nightmares & Game Audio – Gaming Podcast

Episode Date: April 4, 2025

Gaming hosts Josh and John sit down with Tobias Lilja, the composer and sound designer behind Little Nightmares 1 & 2! Tobias shares how he broke into the gaming industry with no experience, the art of crafting eerie and immersive soundscapes, and what it takes to shape a video game’s mood from the very beginning. It’s a must-listen for fans of indie titles, game audio, and anyone looking to break into the video game industry! All the gaming news you need, every week from the Video Gamers Podcast! Thanks to our MYTHIC Supporters: Redletter, Ol’ Jake, Disratory and Gaius Connect with the show: Support us on Patreon: patreon.com/videogamerspod Join our Gaming Community: https://discord.gg/Dsx2rgEEbz Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/videogamerspod/  Follow us on X: https://twitter.com/VideoGamersPod  Subscribe to us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU12YOMnAQwqFZEdfXv9c3Q   Visit us on the web: https://videogamerspod.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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from storytelling to visual art to an incredibly memorable soundtrack. Music and sound is such an important part of the feel of a game, whether it's joy or fear. But how the heck does someone even do that? On today's episode, we're diving into the world of video game music. But first, some introductions are in order. I am your host Josh and Joining me. He said multiple times that little nightmares is one of his favorite series So I have a feeling he's really gonna enjoy this episode

It's John and it yeah advance warning for anybody who's been on the discord You guys have heard me talking about this for a very long time. I would say if you were to say series, Little Nightmares is my favorite series and certainly my favorite soundtrack. So I'm absolutely stoked to be talking to our guest today. Well we're going to explain why because joining us, the man behind the incredible music and sound of Little Nightmares This man is responsible for those feelings of dread and fear so you can thank him for all your anxiety It's Tobias

Hi guys, how you doing Tobias? I'm good. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for having me on the show. Oh We're very excited to have you man. Thanks so much for being with us. We're going to make this a good time. I know it's always a little weird to be like, I'm going on this podcast. I don't know who these guys are. So but we are very excited to have you, you know, and just to kind of give you a little bit of background, we've been doing this kind of fun series

where we're really trying to talk to various people that are, you know, that are responsible for making the games that we love. So we have talked to voice actors, we have talked to developers, you know, and you are our first actual like music composer that we've had a chance to talk to. So I know we're both very excited because I'll be honest, this is a world that I know nothing about. Okay. I make the joke, and this is a true story, that I was once kicked out of third grade band. I took trumpet lessons for a year and then went to band

and they actually said, no, hey, you're probably not ready for this. And so, you know, I you're probably not ready for that. And so, you know, I'm not musically inclined at all. And so I'm always fascinated by people that just have a talent for that. And so we're really excited to have you and kind of pick your brain a little bit. Okay, cool. I was actually playing the trumpet myself when I was a kid for a few years. So, you know, people think it's only three keys at the top and it's so hard. It's so hard. You can't. Yeah. It's you. I mean, kids shouldn't play the trumpet.

You need so much airflow to make it sound like one note. Even it's really difficult. I'm curious. Why didn't the trumpet make the cut for Little Nightmares soundtrack? Is that not a, I mean, there are't the trumpet make the cut for Little Nightmares soundtrack? Is that not a... I mean, there are actually some trumpets in there, like the doctor character. He has a lot of kind of brass instruments layered in there, so the music for that character.

So there are some trumpets in there. Okay, interesting. Yeah. So Tobias, let's get to know you a little bit better for our listeners, because we've had a chance to kind to know you a little bit better for our listeners. Because we've had a chance to kind of chat offline a little bit and stuff like that. But we were talking a little bit before we actually started recording. We were kind of asking you if you were a gamer.

Being that we're a gaming podcast, you know, obviously that's one of our interests here. So you were saying that you do quite enjoy video games. It's just one of those things where when you work on them and sometimes coming home from work and then playing them is not always ideal. Exactly, exactly. I mean, I've been playing video games all my life. It was a huge thing when I was a kid.

I got a PlayStation when I was 11 or something and I played that all the time. But these days I spend a lot of time working with games, working with the sound and sound effects and music. So it's not the first thing maybe I want to do when I get home from work. But I still enjoy games. All my friends are game developers and I still really like games. I do play games sometimes, of course. We do have a video game club, me and some of my friends. It's similar to a book club kind of thing.

Exactly, like a book club, but with video games. So we are mostly playing kind of indie games. We played Animal Wealth. My favorite. A while ago. Oh, great game. Yeah, that was great. We played Outer Wilds.

Oh, oh, you're speaking about, I love Outer Wilds, man. I have been shouting Outer Wilds to everybody that will listen, because I think that game is incredible, man. Everybody gets really bent out of shape about trying to fly the little spaceship around, because it's pretty janky. But that game is awesome.

Yeah, it's really cool. They are using narration in such a unique way. And yeah, it's cool. It's really cool. So for this video game club, is it like, do you guys take turns saying, hey, this is the game I want to pick? Or do you guys all kind of just agree on one? How do you go about picking a game for that?

It's usually just someone says, I heard about this game, it seems cool. And then we just check it out and just play it. I mean, we don't always complete the game. Maybe we just play it for an hour and try it out. I love that. Yeah, it's like video game tapas. You just like little samples of...

Yeah, and it's a great way. We also spoke before about like taking the time to play video games, and that's also a good excuse. Like I need to play this game now because we are going to say something about it tomorrow when we have coffee and talk about it. There you go. There you go. I'm that same way where I love just a little sampling of games. I famously don't finish very many games. Even if I love them, I just want to try this next thing or this other game that somebody was talking about or something like that. So I know that bugs a lot of people that are like, you bought this game, like you have to beat it. And then I just, I can't. Yeah, I'm actually kind of like, I want to complete games. I tried to play through Elden Ring last year.

I got really far. I got really far, but it was just too big. That game was just overwhelming to me. Tobias, so where do you lie on the Souls-like difficulty level? Do you like that sort of grinding difficulty, or do you play more casually? I play it kind of casually.

The thing is I don't really like the boss fights in those games. Yeah. I love the exploration part and playing like the non-boss fights. Best exploration in a game, yeah. Yeah, the exploration in Elden Ring was amazing. But the boss, but it gets a bit repetitive after a while,

I think, and the boss fights aren't that, after a while they start reusing bosses. Like it's the same boss, but now it's a ghost. Like, but I already completed this boss. Yeah. That exploration is one of the things I love. Outer Wilds, we talked about, is fantastic for that because it just lets you go.

And then the way that you discover stuff through just playing the game is fantastic. Elden Ring is like that, but I love a really good challenge. John and I were actually talking about the difficulty of like Elden Ring this morning. For me, I'm the kind of guy where it's like if you put this boss in front of me, I will fight that boss 50 times in a row because it's like, well, I have to beat him. But Elden Ring did it really well with that ability to say, listen, if you're stuck, just go do something else. Like you can play this game kind of the way you want,

which I absolutely love. So that's true. So we're chatting about games. How did you get into video game music, man? I actually wanted to work with film sound at first. So I tried to get gigs in the film industry, like sound recording and music for film and short films and commercials.

And I did some freelancing with that for a few, for some time, but it was difficult to get jobs in that industry. And suddenly, by fluke, this Tarsier Studios job showed up. So I applied for it. This was in 2011. So I didn't have any experience in video games. But I applied for it. This was in 2011. So I didn't have any experience in video games. But I applied for it anyway. And this application, they needed someone to... They had recently opened up a studio in Malmö, Tarsier Studios. And they needed someone to take care of the audio. They did a lot of licensing work for Sony. So they were working on LittleBigPlanet.

And they were working on the, do you remember the PlayStation Vita, the handheld? Yeah, oh yeah, that's a throwback. So they were doing LittleBigPlanet for the PlayStation Vita, and they needed someone to handle the audio part. And I was kind of, at that time I had like a part-time teaching job at the university teaching sound design.

In music? No, sound design. Okay. And so I just had just been, what's the word, let go from that job. And so I needed, I was like So I needed a job. And they were also like, we need someone to do this. So it was a good match in time. And I lived just around the corner from the office.

And I think I did a decent work sample and interview as well. So I got the job. But it was a difficult first few years, since I had no experience in video game development. It was kind of a big threshold in learning all the... I mean, it's a very technical job. A lot of applications you need to know how to implement sounds in games and stuff.

It's very technical. But the good thing was that we were using the same game engine as LittleBigPlanet 2. So it was more about that we could reuse a lot of the code and we used the same audio pipeline. So it was a good kind of learning project for me to add sound effects to the game. And I was also-

Right, because there was existing infrastructure already. You weren't learning everything from the ground up. There was some base, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I could focus on making sounds. And I wasn't making music at that point. I was more like, I was writing so-called music briefs for other composers, which means that I kind of explain

like this level needs this music. And like, I tried to kind of explain what kind of music we needed for another external freelancing composer. So, and I like sourced a lot of kind of references for music that we would, that we liked that would fit. And I also, did you play Little Big Planet at all back in the day? I mean, yeah. Oh yeah. Great, great games.

Yeah. They had this thing where you could, as a player, create your own levels. So we needed to create some kind of music library so players could kind of pick a music track for their level. So one big part of the job was to kind of source, try to find music for this. I mean, existing release music. Some of it was composed, this, I mean existing release music, it was not, some of it was composed original music, but we also kind of sourced available release music kind of from indie rock bands and stuff. So that was a big part of the job just to like find these tracks and I did that work together with Sony, Martin Hewitt at Sony helped us to contact these record labels and license these tracks to the game. So that makes me.

You said something, and I've always been curious about this, too, where you said you worked with giving other composers a little bit of an idea of what this needs to sound like. Yeah. Like for a game, like for instance, like Little Nightmares, right? Do you compose the music for that and then they do the level? Do you see the kind of the level design and art and then you go, oh, okay, well, this should have this kind of sound like it's almost like a chicken or egg kind of thing, right?

Like which one comes first? Because I have no idea. I mean, audio, both sound effects and music is usually late. Like often it's kind of the last thing. Really? OK. Yeah.

It's very common. That's interesting. But one thing, like game development, it's a lot about iteration. You do one version, and then you change a bunch of stuff. And then you keep doing versions all the time. So it's not very often you nail something on the first try. It's a lot of kind of, you do some part.

Yeah, you inch closer to the answer every iteration. Yeah, and that's the same for all disciplines. Like both level designers are kind of trying out. It's a lot of trial and error, essentially. You're building a layout of a level, and you do some tweaks. And it's the same thing for the artists that do maybe the level art. And it's the same thing for me, like trying to continuously

tweaking both sound effects and music until everything fits. And it takes a same thing for me, like trying to continuously tweaking both sound effects and music until everything fits. And it takes a lot of time. It's a, it's, and it's a very, it's a, it can be a bit of a big headache. Um, it's difficult to plan the work because everyone is working on everything at the same time. It's kind of building, like building a house. It's changing all the time. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's changing all the time. Yeah, yeah. And it's changing all the time. And if the end result isn't that fun to play, you kind of have to rethink the whole thing. So it's not a guarantee that it will be fun in the end, even though it's like a perfect idea on paper. So it's a lot of fun. Luckily it worked out.

Yeah. I honestly kind of like that way of working, trial and error and just trying it out. And you have to kind of use your gut feeling all the time. Like, is this cool? Is this fun? And I kind of like that way of working. Tobias I have a couple of questions for you. First of all, I want to preface this by saying we've had the opportunity to talk to a lot

of amazing people in this industry, including, you know, really big studios where, you know, probably 20 years ago, I would have been absolutely at floored by the opportunity to talk to him. This interview with you is the closest that I've ever been to Starstruck. Like I can't tell you how much I love and appreciate the sound design for these games. Oh, thank you. So I want to ask you a couple of questions here. Of course.

So you mentioned that you were teaching sound design. Do you have a, you mentioned you played trumpet earlier. Did you come from like a musical background? Like have you been playing music more or less most of your life? I don't have like a formal music or composer training. I mean, I have three older brothers and they all kind of listen to a lot of music when I grew up. And I was also listening to a lot of music when I grew up, especially electronic music.

Yes. Do you have a favorite? Favorite music? Yeah. I was also listening to a lot of music when I grew up, especially electronic music. Yes. Do you have a favorite? Favorite music. Yeah. Yeah, a couple favorite artists. Yeah, I mean, obviously when I grew up,

I listened to a lot of kind of techno, underground, like Chemical Brothers. I loved that when I was a kid. The Prodigy. Crystal Method, Prodigy. Yeah, yeah. I saw Prodigy at a concert. Oh, you did? The Fat of the Land is, my buddy CJ is probably listening to Method, Prodigy. Yeah, yeah. I saw Prodigy at a concert. Oh, you did?

The Fat of the Land is, my buddy CJ is probably listening to this by the way, but the Fat of the Land is probably like a top three album at the time, I think. Yeah, yeah. So it was kind of, I was playing the trumpet from age 11 or 12 or something. I played that for a few years and had like lessons

in that and I also played in like a school band. So I guess I... Nobody didn't kick that out of their band. But the thing is, I never... I was much more interested in electronic music. My brother Joakim bought a sampler, like a sampled keyboard. It's not a synthesizer, but it's a keyboard that can record sounds and they can play those sounds on a keyboard. So he bought one of those and he kind of taught me how to use it. So that was kind of my first kind of, that's how I was making music when I was a kid. I was kind of sampling other people's music and putting it together, kind of like old school hip hop, sampling records

and putting it together in some kind of collage fashion. So I was much more interested in that way of working out, more than writing songs on the piano. I didn't really know how to do that, honestly. And that kind of interests, I've always been more interested in the sounds and the, like how things sound and the textures and rather than the melodies and chords and lyrics, and that's why I also kind of was really interested

in kind of sound design for film, because that was more, that I was working with that type of interest more than becoming like a composer because I wasn't really into being a composer. I mean, I don't have, I don't really know how to, you know, write for an orchestra or something like that or. Okay, so that actually segues really into the core question that I wanted to ask quite nicely is that when I'm

again Little Nightmares the first one really good game the second one in my opinion masterpiece at like it is absolutely one of my favorite games especially from the narrative component component and the I think the best thing about the game is the audio design. Thank you. And I can't imagine developing that game without knowing what that game sounded like first. Like there's some like Josh and I were just talking about this offline, but the level where you are being stalked by the flickering TV man and sort of the sound design is synced to the footsteps of him stalking you, it's like, I have goosebumps right now just talking about it. It's brilliant, but I can't imagine,

you mentioned that the sound design sort of comes much later in the development of the game. I can't imagine you mentioned that the sound design sort of comes much later in the development of a game like I can't imagine developing that without the sound design in mind first and You know you mentioned you had no You had no interest really in the the composition that the actual music part of it it was more of the the sound design like the atmosphere probably that you're interested, but the theme song for Little Nightmares for me is so iconic,

that's surprising to me. So I was hoping you could speak to how that works out. Like how do you go about layering on a soundscape for a game like this? How do they even develop it without the soundscape in mind first? Yeah, I think one advantage I had was we started working on the prototype that eventually became Little Nightmares back in 2014, I think.

So I had the luxury to kind of be part of that product from the start. Since I was working at Tarsier, I was kind of following the prototype and I also had the opportunity to do sounds and music for the first initial kind of vertical slice, the first prototype that we used to kind of pitch the game to publishers. So I think that was, I think that really helps if you're part of the product from the start. You can together really form an idea about the game together. It's much more difficult. Like you say, if I would come in the last six months and just try to shoehorn in some sounds in there, that would be really difficult. So I'm a big believer in that you should involve audio designers really early on. And it's also because you, when you're working with

it, you have to be kind of marinated in it for a while to understand it. That's a good term. And I also like to kind of play the game all the time. Since I, when I was working at Tarsier, it was like an office job in many ways. I had my own room and I could play the game all the time, every day. So I had really good kind of overview where the game was going. So I think that also helps to kind of understand the game. Because if you're doing music for a scene, you kind of have to understand what's happening next

and what happened before. You kind of have to understand all the context. So the more you know and understand, I think the better job you're able to do audio-wise. OK, I got to jump in here because this is the part where my brain just goes haywire and I can't honestly I can't even fathom it It's like looking at a circuit board for something You know what I mean? Like I know that like people understand how this works

But I look at it and I'm just like this is alien technology Like how does you're telling me this can add up numbers and stuff? So like You're talking about these iterations and you're talking about like, you know You you kind of see the design and you kind of have this idea. But like, so, you know, last night I was listening cause I've played Little Nightmares 1 and 2. I think they're very good games. Like, you know, John loves them a little bit more than I do as far as, but I cannot deny like, like honestly, and I'm not saying this just cause you're here, but like the,

the music and the sound design in that game is absolutely incredible. When I can be on a level and feel like that, but the music and the sound design in that game is absolutely incredible. Oh, thank you. When I can be on a level and feel that terror or that fear or that buildup, that's something, even though I don't know anything about music, I can feel that. So I was listening through Boots Through the Undergrowth and it's this very kind of pulse heavy,

it almost sounds like footsteps to me. And like, do you do you hear it in your head? Like, is this one of those things where it's like you can just kind of hear this sound or this music and then you just have the the technical ability to like, you know, put it forth into the world? Is it like I'm just experimenting and throwing things out there until I go, oh, yeah, that might actually work. More like the ladder as it's more a trial and trial and error,

trying things. And it's, it's no, it's very, I mean, I can, I can hear, I can have an idea about, okay, is this, uh, is it going to be fast pace? It's going to be intense or is it going to be, I mean, I can have an idea about how I should feel when I hear it. But it's a lot of try of experimenting. That's what I also really love about it. You can maybe...

What I do is usually try to find some kind of limitation. So in the case of that track Boots Through the Undergrowth, I think that's from the forest level in Lil' Nibbles 2. So that level has like a distinct kind of forest look or woods and it's like a cabin in the woods, a wooden house. So the first thing I did there was kind of to try to nail down some instruments that would work. And that's very subjective. To me, that's like, OK, that should be some acoustic instrument, something that feels kind of rooted, maybe a guitar, acoustic guitar,

or a banjo even. And then I just try to limit myself to that. Say, oh, what can I do with a guitar? I'm not a guitar player, so what can I do with it? And that's kind of a very experimental thing. I don't try to write a song on the guitar. I try just to make noise, like make sounds from it. That is musical, but it's not like what you would expect from a guitar.

And that's also what's fun with the kind of the horror genre. It's kind of rewarding experiments like that. It's, you need to make, I think the airiness comes a lot from sounds that you haven't really heard before or you don't really understand what it is. And it's kind of familiar but you can't really place what it is. I think our brains almost revolt a little bit. Like it's like you said, like, it's like my brain knows

that this is a guitar, but this is not the way that a guitar should sound. And so it kind of creates that anxiety almost where it's like it is familiar, but it's it's not the way that's the familiar that my brain likes. And so you get this kind of guttural response almost to it. Like, I was listening to this literally last night and I shouted to the other room and I was just like, this song's freaking me out, man. Yeah, absolutely, Josh. I mean, like the soundtrack for these games, if you listen to it with zero context, zero visual context,

you will still get the same emotional response. Yeah, oh really? Oh wow, okay, thank you, that's amazing. I thought that you kind of had to have played the games before to understand it. Oh no. Oh wow. No. Oh, wow. No, no, no. When I'm like, if I'm in a mood where I feel like I need to be writing or something, you know, depressing or scary, or I need to be in that headspace for whatever reason,

I put this on and on its own merit, you kind of get the, you know, like the in a good way. Yeah, cool. Yeah, it's the it's one of those things where, you know, like the in a good way. Cool. Yeah, it's the, it's one of those things where, you know, I think, you know, maybe it's just me getting older. I think maybe with the rise of indie games lately, like, you know, we've seen a big shift in gaming. Like indie games have always existed,

but you're starting to see a higher appreciation from gamers as a whole for the indie genre, because I think what's happened is a lot of these AAA studios have kind of gotten routine. And as gamers, we go, man, I can really appreciate the passion that these indie developers have. And so it's one of those things where I think we're starting to appreciate the music and sound design

for games a lot more. And I think we're really starting to understand how that can impact us. Like, you know, I am a, I say this a lot, but I love good graphics. Like I love cutting edge graphics. I think the technology is amazing. I love to just see a game and go, wow, you know,

but we have spoken, you know, another person that we spoke to was like an artist and an animator for games. And one of the really neat things that we took away from that is you can only get so real with graphics before it just looks real. And that, but reality does not have any artistic sense to it, you know, like that's just what we see every day.

So there's not really art to it in that case. And with music, I think we're really starting to kind of appreciate that maybe it's not the visual that we see, but it's those feelings. It's the way that a level can make us feel. Like Hollow Knight is a really good example of a game that has really, really good sound design to it where it's like, I can close my eyes and remember a level,

not for the visuals, but for the music in that level, if that makes sense. And Little Nightmares, kudos to you, is another one of those games where it's like, I just feel it, man. Yes, I can see it, but that's not the part that I remember. And so I think that's where music really comes in. And I think it's almost something

that flies under the radar a little bit. And that's not to dismiss the music, I mean with gamers, because when you feel something, when you walk into that grand city in the Witcher, you know, or Red Dead Redemption 2, for instance, and you're riding your horse across the, you know, the Old West, that music that's playing in the background is what is making you feel what you're feeling at the time. And I think gamers are starting to realize that. So I'm just blown away by it, man, because it's, like I said, this is something that my brain just doesn't compute. I know when I like something, you know.

But one part of the job is to also be a little bit invisible. Like you're supposed to kind of be a bit subconscious in a way. I think that's when it's working the best. I think that is a phenomenal point because you're right. It just fits into the general sort of suspension of disbelief, you know, it's just a part of this experience that you're not necessarily picking out for its own, yeah. Yeah, sorry, it's the intro.

Especially like ambient sounds. It doesn't have to be music even. It can be like the background sounds. I think David Lynch is doing that really well in some of his movies. He has these, have you seen Eraserhead? RIP, oh yeah, yeah. He's doing-

Every goth kid in the US watched Eraserhead. That used to be the question that you would ask other people to know if they were cool or not. But the thing with that film is that you have these industrial drones in the background all the time, even though when they're indoors, they have these indoor scenes, and you still hear those factory drones in the background. It just makes you so claustrophobic and uncomfortable. And it's just background ambiences. And that's really on a kind of most like a subconscious level, I think. Okay, Martin, let's try one. Remember, big. You got it. The Ford It's a Big Deal event is on. How's that? A little bigger.

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It's a big deal. The Ford It's a Big Deal event. Visit your Toronto area Ford store for.ca today. One of the things you touched on was kind of the difference. And I'll be honest, this is another kind of just blind spot for me, at least. But you kind of talked about like the composing of the music versus like sound design and the iterations, how you come up with these sounds and things like that.

And I think a lot of times people just lump music together. I mean, obviously there's a thousand different genres, you know, as far as that goes. But I think a lot of times somebody goes, oh, well, if this guy's a composer, then he knows how to do everything. And I think that is very not true. It's almost like artists, right?

Like somebody might be a great sculptor, somebody might be a great painter, somebody might be a great digital artist. And I think we kind of comprehend that because it's a little easier to see visually in the differences. Yeah, you're totally right. I've never thought about the fact that somebody

that might be a composer is not composing, like you said, like an orchestra, and does not want to or have the desire to get into like electronic stuff or sound design or something like that. So is that more like just the medium of art where people are talented at different things or you prefer certain mediums like that? I think it comes down to a lot of like personal interest I think. And it's also like like I think most people who enjoy writing for orchestra has probably played in an orchestra. Maybe they have a background, maybe they play the cello or violin in an orchestra.

They have that kind of background. I have I don't have that background. I have like I said before, I like techno music when I was a kid. I was like have that background. Like I said before, I liked techno music when I was a kid. I was listening to the Prodigy. And if you're writing for an orchestra, you kind of have to know the range of all the different instruments and kind of how they work together. Also, you have to kind of listen to a ton of orchestral work to kind of start thinking, thinking about it that way. Yeah. And you don't necessarily have to be good at any of the instruments. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Right. You're right. You're right.

It's not about performing. That's the thing. I'm a lousy performer. I don't, I'm, I don't, I'm terrible at playing the piano because I never practice. But it's more interesting to me to kind of play instruments in weird ways. Well, it works great, sir. Explore the sound, like the sonic potential in the instruments in other ways. Because I mean, there's already a million people playing the guitar really well. I can't compete with that. But I think it's a lot about background and interest and some... Yeah, and as I said before, I was part of Little Nightmares from the start, from the first prototype.

So I had the chance to also kind of find some music that was really fitting to what I could do, to my style, or something that I felt I could do. I gotta ask you, I'm sorry, John, this is just a quick one, but I am a huge fan of EDM. It's my favorite genre by far. My wife makes sense for you, John. Yeah, I'm an old guy, you know what I mean? And so for me listening to techno and progressive house and stuff like that,

like my wife and kids pick on me all the time because they're like, dad, you like this weird music. And I'm like, okay, it's just what my brain loves, man. So do you have a favorite, is there like a favorite artist or band that's in the EDM genre that is your favorite right now? Mine is Stodo. So I don't know if you've heard of Stodo,

but that's the one where it's like, those guys, every song they make, I just, I think is phenomenal. No, I mean, I'm also pretty old school. I like the, I like artists like Aix Twin, which is more maybe more like an experimental. Did you listen to like industrial music like Skinny Puppy or Ogre or anything? Yeah, yeah. Actually, my oldest brother was listening to Front 242 a lot when I was a kid. Yes. Yeah, okay.

a lot when I was a kid. Yes. Yeah, definitely. And Duff and that kind of like body music. I love that stuff. Probably more into that stuff than EDM. It's just the progression. I love the layers. People try to ask me like, why do you like this stuff? And I go, it's the layers. It's that build up, man. It's that, you know, that just hearing this song building up and then come crashing down again kind of thing. So it's also super energetic music. Like Josh is our resident energizer bunny. So it's the perfect theme song for you. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. Well, what I was going to say say is is that from the layman's perspective again Like I I was in a band for a while, but I'm like not a musician at all. I was Barely competent and that's putting it generously

But it's cool. Like when I'm listening to the your music when I'm listening to your sound design I go Guys a master like this guy is like next level genius. Like you could like, you should never explore music because there are two biases in the world that you could never catch up to. And it's, it's just so, um, it's so honest and refreshing to hear somebody who I'm like, you know, I like, I covet your talent for you to go like, yeah, I kind of had to find music that I felt like I could replicate or whatever.

I'm like, oh my gosh, that's just crazy to me. It's a very humble thing for you to say. Yeah, yeah, thanks. Is there, so that's a good question too, because we look up to people that are in the industry and we go, obviously this person has made it and their career, they have this crazy talent. Is there somebody that you look up to? Yeah, of course. I mean, I look up to people who kind of, you know, stay creative their entire life, you know, people who keep being an artist when they are 70, like David Lynch for example.

That's really inspiring to me. People like Scott Walker. He was like a boy band singer in the 60s and then he got sick of that. And so we had this kind of avant-garde experimental music career before he passed away. That was really inspiring to me. He's basically like a crooner singer that started to make this really experimental music when he was like 60 years old. That's amazing to me. That's awesome. And he wrote these incredible lyrics and collaborated with some really great musicians.

He did an album with Sunno, like a doom metal band, also in his 60s or something, that was in 2014. That's amazing to me. That's something I really admire. You're talking about it's Sun, Zero and then like parentheses like a million parentheses. That one, yeah, exactly. I bet you and I have similar taste in music. Yeah, that's a great one. But stuff like that, yeah. Yeah, that's a really inspiring story, Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That's a really inspiring story.

Honestly, somebody who's probably been a musician his entire life has this sort of self renaissance at 60, you know, completely reinvents himself. So, you know, we're talking about little nightmares, you know, reanimal has been announced. Is that something that you're working on? No, no, I'm not working on reanimal. I'm a freelancer now. I resigned from Tarsier just when they started to work on that. Oh, okay. Cool. Their loss.

But I mean, I think- Yeah, it is their loss, but it gives you the ability to do what you want to do at that point. Yeah, yeah. I jumped on, I did some sound and music for an animated feature film. I had the opportunity, so I kind of wanted to jump on that just to try it out. And now I'm working on another game project that's not really announced yet.

Some, yeah. I can't talk about that, but. Is it horror? Yeah, yeah, I can say it's that, but is it, is it horror? Yeah. Yeah. I can say it's horror. Yeah. Okay. But, but, um, uh, but I'm sure reanimal was, it's going to sound amazing.

I'm sure of it. It's, uh, the thing is, uh, Christian Vasselbring was my colleague, a Tarsier working, he also did a lot of the sound design for little nightmares. Uh, so he, he's working on the reanimal. Oh, so I, I mean So I mean I didn't do all the sounds myself for Little Nightmares. It was me, Christian Wasselbring and Christian Björklund. So we were a team of three people who did the sound design. But I did all the music. So it's in good hands at least. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, okay, good. So were you involved or consulted

in the Little Nightmares handoff to Bandai at all? Is that something that you? Yeah, I'm involved in some work for Little Nightmares 3. Not in the same way. I was super involved in Little Nightmares 2. I was, you know, like I said, I was working with it every day, but I'm doing some work for it, but

not in the same way, really. So I am a person who like indie games are tend to be more my speed. I tend to find that the the narrative and the art style is a bit more to my liking and I have like a few it's almost like, you know, again, like growing up as like a goth kid, it's like once something hit mainstream, it's like, ah, this can't be cool anymore. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, exactly.

Do you have any thoughts on, you know, a big studio sort of taking the reins on an indie project like this? Hmm, that's a good question. Like I hope they do really well, but at the same time... I mean, the good thing with publishers, I mean, Bandai Namco was the publisher from the start of Little Nightmares.

So they've been the publisher all along, but it's another studio doing Little Nightmares 3. But I think the good thing with big publishers is that they have kind of money to spend on, to make it good. Like they can maybe delay the project to make sure that it's improving and they can also spend more money with marketing and so the game has a better reach. I think Banda Namco did a good job at making sure Lil Nightpals was kind of had a good reach to the audiences. Well sure, but I think that the budget can be a double-edged sword So like the Marvel movies for instance like just because they have the money to make these movies reach large audiences doesn't Necessarily mean that's the right thing to do. That's true. That's true. Yeah, but yeah, but it's it's tricky with

nightmares was very much a It was he said a different it's a Tarsier game. It's very shaped by the artists at Tarsier. They have a style that's very recognizable. Absolutely. The art team at Tarsier is world-class. To me, it's the best art team in the world. It's no question about it.

They are incredible. If you look at some of the concept art, you look at the concept art and you look at some of the concept art, it's like, you look at the concept art and you look at the scene in the game, it's like, yeah, it's the same. It's just the same image. Yeah. So you mentioned that you're doing freelance work now. Does that feel like freeing to you? I mean, is this like something where, you know, it's like, hey, I've done this, I've done game design, or game, you know, the audio design, sound design,

and that kind of thing. Is it more that it's like, I just want to have the freedom to kind of do what my passions are at that point? Is that kind of like the driving force behind wanting to do like freelance work? That's a good question. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's, it's to be able to pick what projects and also I think one, it may sound simple, but

one really big factor is that you are able to kind of design your own space, how you work. Just simple things like I can decide in a heartbeat if I want to buy an application or if I want to go and buy a cello. I can do that. It's no problem. I can, you know, design, I can go and buy a new chair. It doesn't have to go through like five different approval layers to make sure it's in the budget or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so, so, and, and, yeah. And also being able to pick projects. And I was, I also wanted to try some other type of game. I mean, I don't mind working with games. But I, I get bored if I, if I have to do the same game,

like, you know, over and over again. I want to try to do something new every time. Like, if you feel like you've kind of carved this name for horror, for instance, right? Like where it's like, OK, everybody knows I can do horror, you know, music and sounds, and I'm great at that. But it's like, but now you just have people approaching you going like, hey, you want to do the sound for this horror game?

And you're like, oh. I don't mind horror at all. I think that's a really fun genre to work with. It's more like Little Nightmares. It's a lot about building suspense and hide and sneak gameplay. It's a lot of stealth. It's not that much kind of typical gameplay. So one thing I want to do, maybe more do a game that's more, that has more gameplay, more classic. More of like an action game or something.

Yeah, something like that. That would be fun to try. And I also had the opportunity to do sounds for that feature film. It's actually an Algerian animated movie called Shamsa that I did a couple of years ago. So I had the opportunity to do sounds for that. So I could kind of try to work with a film for the... it wasn't the first

time, but it was the first time I could do both sound design and music for a feature film. That was really interesting to me to try that. So I'm just gonna plug you here. I would also love to hear your music in a bigger, more action-oriented game. So if anybody from From Software happens to be listening to this, I think Tobias and perhaps an Elden Ring or Dark Souls collab would sound very nice to me.

That's awesome. Well, Tobias, listen, we are running short on time, but we wanted to kind of wrap things up with just a couple of gaming questions for you, maybe put you on the spot just a little bit here. What is your favorite game of the last few years that you have played? The last few years.

It's probably Animal Well or Elden Ring. I mentioned those previously. I mean, Elden Ring was... I never finished it, but it was a really... It was an amazing experience anyway. That's a good choice. Yeah, Elden Ring is a top five game for me by far. And so I don't know. And if you don't have an answer for this one, that's plenty OK. We know you're busy.

But is there a game coming out either this year or maybe next year that you're very excited to try or to get your hands on? Oh, that's a good question. I don't have good... I don't have... I'm really lousy at keeping track of upcoming games, to be honest. No, that's okay. I mean, that's part of what we do is put games on people's radars. So we're always curious if there's a game... John and I are both excited for a game called Expedition 33 that's coming out very soon that looks really, really good. So it's always a curious question to say, is there something coming that you're excited for?

The thing is, I'm always super late to the party. Like, Elden Ring was released several years ago. But it's always like that. It's like, oh, I should play that at some point. And then two years later, I pick it up and play it. It's always like that. And's like, oh, I should play that at some point. And then two years later, I pick it up and play it. It's always like that. And I'm terrible at doing it. It's also that Johnny, we're talking about

this kind of indie thing. Like everyone's playing that now. I don't want to play it. Right. Yeah, no, I get that. Everyone is watching Squid Game. I'm not going to watch it. But I watch it two years later anyway. Just to miss out.

Yeah. Not to miss out. That's awesome. All right. Tobias, I have three goofy questions for you. Okay. You're Swedish, correct? Yeah. How often do you shop at IKEA? at IKEA? A couple of times a year maybe. Yeah? Yeah. Do you eat at the food court? Yeah, but it, oh man, that food isn't good at all. No, no. That's what John was fishing for right there. I mean, they serve these green peas. They were like raisins. Oh god. Gross. What do you think about pickled herring? It's okay. I'm actually a vegetarian, but I do. Before I became a vegetarian, but it's okay. I do like the schnapps. You'd usually drink like schnapps two herring, like in Christmas and Easter and stuff.

Yeah, just kind of like a belly warmer kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, like a spiced liquor kind of thing. That's really good. What is your favorite Swedish vegetarian food? Sweden. I mean, Swedish don't have, I mean, Swedish vegetarian food. Swedish? I mean, Swedish don't have, I mean, my favorite food is like Korean food and Vietnamese food.

Because Swedish food is, that's the only meat. Meat and potatoes is sweet. I was gonna say, you never see it like a Swedish restaurant in like the United States where people are like, come have the Swedish food. No. I mean, right. I can't think of a single one. Yeah. And then, sorry, one last question. What is your favorite Swedish movie that an American might not have heard of? Swedish movie. Oh, that's probably, there is a Swedish hyped director called Ruben Östlund. He made a movie a few years-

That's unpronounceable for us. Ruben Ostlund. Thank you. He made a movie a few years back called De Ofrivilliga. Let me check what that was in English. Josh, did you ever see Let the Right One In by any chance? Yeah, I've heard of it, but I've never seen it.

Oh my, it's slants horror. I wouldn't say it's a straight up horror movie, but God, is that a good movie. Yeah, that's also an amazing movie. It's called, Dom Ofri Villager, it's called Involuntary in English. That was a really good movie. Sounds better in Swedish.

Yeah. But Let the Ripe One In is also, I mean, actually, he's one of my favorite authors, the author behind Let the Ripe One In. Gotcha. Brilliant movie. Awesome. Well, Tobias, this has been so much fun, man.

I mean, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show and chatting with us. I've learned a lot. Like I said, this was a huge blind spot for me. My brain just doesn't work with music other than just appreciating it. It's really cool for our listeners and I think gamers in general to just kind of get that peek behind the curtain as to like, you know, we all, we, we hear it, we feel it, but we had no clue like how this is made, you know, how it's incorporated into a video game. Uh, you know, the, the genius behind it, honestly, uh, to, to do that and to be able

to create like that feel and that vibe. Um, you know, I, I kind of explain it as like a guttural response. Like you mentioned with horror that you like working on that and it's so crucial to get that feeling. If it doesn't scare you, then horror is not really doing anything at that point. If it's not giving you anxiety, then what's it doing at that point?

So really appreciate you giving your time to just hop on with us and kind of give us that insight. You know, we wish you the best of luck. You know, thank you for the music and the sound design on Little Nightmares 1 and 2. They are insanely well-known games in the gaming community. So there's definitely an appreciation the gamers have for that. There's definitely an appreciation the gamers have for that. Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me. It was really fun. Of course. Honestly, this is a selfish episode for me. Like, this has been such an honor. Like, my gosh.

I'm still like, I just have like butterflies in my stomach from being able to talk to you. But we wanted to give you, where's the place where people can follow your work or connect with you, social media, any projects that you got working on? I'm terrible at social media, but I do have an Instagram, tobias underscore Lilia. I will post something there, like updates

about new projects and stuff. That's probably the best way. Awesome. All right, well, listen, everybody, that's gonna do it for this episode. Thank you, Tobias, once again. This has been an absolute blast. This is awesome for me.

I know it's awesome for John. He's still just grinning from ear to ear there. So that's gonna do it for this one. Until next time, happy gaming. Toodles.