Video Gamers Podcast - Dungeon Defenders Review - Gaming Podcast

Episode Date: January 23, 2023

Gaming apprentices Michael, Josh and Paul are diving into the beloved gaming world of Dungeon Defenders. A co-op classic with a great mix of tower defense and action RPG in a perfect harmony of gaming genres. We break it all down like no one else can! Thanks to our LEGENDARY supporters: Toro, Scrump, Gaius, Remi, MarbleMadness, Dr. Catatonic, Blackstar (DQ), Glapsuidir, Phelps, Michele B, Redletter, Nevo, Waynerman, TFolls, AceofShame, Jake, RangerMiller, and Ad Connect with the show: Support us on Patreon: patreon.com/multiplayerpodcast Join our Gaming Discord: https://discord.gg/Dsx2rgEEbz Follow us on Instagram: instagram.com/multiplayerpod/ Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/MultiplayerPod Subscribe to us on YouTube: youtube.com/channel/UCU12YOMnAQwqFZEdfXv9c3Q Visit us on the web: multiplayerpodcast.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You hear that? Ugh, paid. And done. That's the sound of bills being paid on time. But with the BMO Eclipse Rise Visa Card, paying your bills could sound like this. Yes! Earn rewards for paying your bill in full and on time each month.

Rise to rewards with the BMO Eclipse Rise Visa Card. Terms and conditions apply. Hello fellow gamers and welcome to the Multiplayer Gaming Podcast. We are three lifelong gamer dads and today we will be deep diving Dungeon Defenders. Please make sure to follow our podcast so you don't miss any episodes, rate our show five stars, and also leave a written review. You can also help support our show financially while getting bonus episodes through Patreon at MultiplayerSquad.com. I am your host, Paul, and joining me, he is our resident monk using his pole arms and

auras to defeat his enemies it's josh every monk says hiya when they do monkey stuff right yeah exactly by the way i love well we'll get to it in a minute but i love that you picked the monk because the monk is bald as are you i knew that was coming that was so easy yeah it's low-hanging fruit i know all right and joining me and josh he is our apprentice using his staff elemental towers and occasional mana bombs to nuke everyone around him it's michael oh snap i'm like a wizard hitting in the shoes with the pew pews get you good oh michael just rap no that was rap it sounded a little oh snap i'm like a wizard hitting in the shoes with the pew pews get you good

oh snap i'm like a wizard hitting in the shoes with the pew pews get you good that sounded a little rubbish michael how did I do? Michael the freestyler. All right. Well, before we jump into our deep dive here in this episode, Josh, you've got a couple reviews people left the show. Oh, you know I love reviews. So if you haven't left us a review, leave us one. Quit being lazy.

Help your favorite podcast. Leave us a review. It takes like 20 seconds. There's a good chance we'll even read it on the show if it's a good one. Quit being lazy. Help your favorite podcast. Leave us a review. It takes like 20 seconds. There's a good chance we'll even read it on the show if it's a good one. But we do like to read these. We do appreciate them. They help the podcast. And it just kind of lets other people know, hey, it's worth your time to check this out. Okay, this first one comes in from MinifoodDK, and it says, hi. And it says, I know I've sent two reviews, but I am here to say that this is the best podcast ever made.

And guess what? Chicken butt. I have nine episodes left. Thanks for the content. Very nice. I'd love a good chicken butt reference, by the way. Oh, and there's a food. There's food in the name and chicken.

It's perfect. This is fried food, chicken, happy time. time and also be more like mini dk and and leave multiple reviews you got multiple phones you know you know somebody it's got a phone that's not on your account multiple apple ids uh fun fact i might have recently taught chicken butt to my five-year-old daughter and it went over quite well it's a good target audience chicken butt never gets old man yeah my my my seven-year-old still our six-year-old still walks around and everything has a butt lamby butt cheap butt i'm like no no just chicken butt that's the one that works but anyway and uh guess why chicken thigh yeah you gotta hit

all the different chicken parts yeah all right this next point we get sidetracked all right this next one is titled nothing and everything to say and the review says best pod ever always looking forward to the latest episode and the discord server is family friendly and very active signed anger bomb oh we know that person we know everybody in our discord man yeah and it's it's an awesome community we say it time and time again but if you're not in the discord server you're missing out on hands down one of the best gaming communities nay the best gaming community in existence you can learn a whole bunch of stuff there shoot i learn new things all the time like i just ask questions that i don't know and there's somebody in there to answer for me so go go do it

also thanks amber bomb amber bomb anger bomb for finally finally leaving this review thank you yeah and also if you join our discord that's where we get a lot of suggestions for what games to cover what to do for our bonus rounds we get a lot of really good tips in there so we love when you guys join josh michael and i are all active in there we'd love to hear from you guys we love to also give you our feedback so we'd love you to come join if you want to do that there's an episode there's an episode there's a link in the episode description i've infected you all it was the wrapping that's what did it. It's infectious.

Alright, well, we don't have very much housekeeping today. The orcs, ogres, and wyverns are on their way to destroy our Eternia crystals. Let's bunker down and deep dive Dungeon Defenders. Okay, here's a description of the game from Wikipedia. Dungeon Defenders is a hybrid multiplayer video game developed by Trendy Entertainment

that combines the genres of tower defense and action role-playing game. The game takes place in a fantasy setting where players control the young apprentices of wizards and warriors and defend against hordes of monsters. A sequel titled Dungeon Defenders 2 was released in 2015. All right, so Dungeon Defenders 1 released back in 2010. Some of our listeners might be wondering why we are covering a pretty old game here. Michael, do you want to let the people know why? Yes, absolutely.

I will let you all know why, because you'll all want to do it once I tell you why. So, you know, there's a little thing you can do to support the show, and it's by going over to multiplayerpodcast.com, and that gives you access to our Patreon page. And if you go legendary tier, you get special perks. One of the perks is when you type in our Discord, which we just talked about, it comes with a gold color. Yeah, because you're incredible, and we give you that gold standard, and you get to keep that forever. But there is a one-time offer that you get as well, is you get to pick any game you want to have us play and review on the show. So that's really cool. It gives you extra perks, and just go do it. Just go do it right now. I'll tell you what, pull the car over. You can do it from your phone multiplayerpodcast.com yes we are sponsored

by our own show and sponsoring an ad right here with my voice go do it also it's multiplayer squad.com oh it is not you can get there from multiplayerpodcast.com though shoot there's a link from there but that's the long way somebody that's internet savvy could probably find their way around oh it's okay michael because not only am i going to pick on you because people can go to multiplayer squad.com if they want to become legendary like remy and pick a game but also i'm going to pick on remy for just a second here too because when remy was thinking about the games remy was like hey i'm picking dungeon defenders and we were like dungeon defenders 2 and he was like no no the the right the

first dungeon defenders and we were like oh okay and then we go to look dungeon defenders 2 is free dungeon defenders is 15 wow you just made me completely realize that I also forgot to say that Remy did this and he picked the game. I got the website wrong. I forgot Remy. I even have notes written down. Like I can't. This is why I never go notes because notes just mess me up.

This episode is riddled with errors. Right. You guys are catching us. Okay. So listen, here's thedled with errors. Right. You guys are catching us. Okay, so listen. Here's the thing. Okay, you also get access to the Squadcast if you join our Patreon at MultiplayerSquad.com. Go to CNN.com. Yeah, CNN.com.

But let me tell you, though. If you go over to and you become a patron of the show, you also get access to twice a month the Squadcast. And it's just filled with nothing but this nonsense. So if you like what you're hearing right now, you'll love those. That is a very good point. Yeah. So here we are going to be covering Dungeon Defenders 1. Oddly enough, I took to Steam Charts to take a look, and Dungeon Defenders 1 and 2 have about the same player base, which I thought was kind of interesting. So Remy's not alone. There are a lot of people who prefer the older game that costs $15 as opposed to the newer one that's free. They even released a third game called Dungeon

Defenders Awakened, which actually has fewer players than 1 and 2, even though that just came out in 2020, which is kind of funny. So these devs just struck gold with the first one and just consistently just get less and less from going on. Pretty much. That's kind of what it seems like. I will also say in Remy's defense, a little bit of a spoiler preview here that most people prefer the first one over the second one. In looking at reviews, the majority of people say, don't play the second, play the first. So Remy knew what they were doing. Yeah yeah the consensus from what i saw on reddit because i also searched like which one should you play and it seemed like a lot of people said the second one has more features and updated graphics but everyone agrees the first one just has like that it factor where it's more fun more

fluid a better experience totally makes sense yeah all right so normally we start off talking about our deep dives in breaking down story uh dungeon defenders yes technically does have a campaign a little bit of a story not really it's certainly not the focus of the game this is a little more akin i would say to something kind of like left for dead where you are launching a session you select the mode you select your difficulty, and then basically as you start each game, the game cycles between two phases. There is a preparation phase where you get ready for the hordes of enemies, then you activate the horde, and then you have your action phase where enemies are coming through doors, they are rushing what are called Eternia

Crystals, which you have to protect. If they defeat the crystals, then you lose the game. So I think probably the easiest way to start to talk about how these phases work is to just talk about the heroes that we played. So Josh, do you want to talk a little bit about the hero that you honed in on and what they can do? So I did try the Apprentice first first that was the very first character that i tried out because who doesn't want to sling fireballs and use magic um and then it didn't really resonate with me a hundred percent and i was like well there's a lot of characters to let me hop over here and try the monk and i just stayed with the monk the whole rest of the time

i really enjoyed playing as the monk um what i liked about this is all characters have melee or ranged abilities that they use. So you do actual action combat in this game, but then it's also a tower defense game. And so each character has their towers or their utility that they can place down on the map, and then they can fight other than that. And so the monk specializes in auras. These auras basically do a variety of different things. And there's stats in this game. So you can put those stats into your defenses, which would grow the size of the auras or the effectiveness of them or something like that. But just to give a couple examples. So for instance,

the monk has a slow aura, which everybody knows in tower defense is super important to slow everything down. They have an electricity aura. They have an aura that makes the enemies fight themselves and so on and so forth. But that's kind of how the classes work in this game, is your class might be really good at the action combat part of it, or you can build your character that way, or you can kind of spec into the defenses portion of it as well. And as the monk, you were mostly using pole arms, getting down and dirty right in the masses.

And I remember you doing like a lot of AOE damage and that kind of stuff too, right? I played a lot of melee. That's kind of how I focused on my build initially, was just saying, I want to be in the thick of things, just slaughtering things by the dozens. And so while I do have, as a monk, very effective defenses in the auras, I was the guy that was just charging in like Leroy Jenkins and just wading into swarms and swarms of monsters. What about you, Michael? What character did you hone in on?

So I like people with pointy hats, and I like slinging the fireballs. And also, when I picked a character, as you pick it, there is underneath the character words like easy, medium, and expert as you pick your character. And there was one that said easy. So I went with that because I'd never played this game before. That was my thought. I didn't know what they did. But picked the apprentice and i stuck with it and honestly it was a typical wizard essentially you know you start out relatively weak you're not super

powerful in fact for the first half of the time that we played together i was by far the weakest even though i was a couple levels behind paul and josh it was still not scaling up at the same rate but once i started kind of getting into you certain level range where I put enough of my points and so forth into upgrading things, the scale went up real fast. Every time I went up in damage, I went up by a lot once I was getting kind of in the mid-20 levels and so forth. So it's pretty cool, though. Really no melee at all. Well, there it is. It happened.

All right. The biggest thing that I've got really is I've got one ability that's more of a ranged ability where it's just flinging fireballs. And depending on what wand I get, it's either electricity, fire, poison. So, you know, obviously we'll talk about that later with different things you defend against. Or I've got a close ability, which is a giant knockback. And it will knock back anything. I also found out that this was really good as using as a boop tool, kind of like Lucio in Overwatch, where I would boop people off of towers.

So I loved levels where there was spike traps on bridges and, you know, infinite lava pits. Because I would just be like, you know, I'm not very good at damage yet, but I'll just boot the whole thing. And it was really nice. It worked out really well. They also do get one ability, which is absolutely insane later on. It's insane. It costs a lot of mana, but it's called a mana bomb. And it just like, it's a one shot anything on the screen or around the screen, which was really cool. So that made me pretty nice. uh but really it's just a wizard you know and i was super squishy just like a wizard should be so i appreciated that it made me super squishy like a wizard should be yeah and whereas josh's monk would put down these auras which looked like big clouds on the map that would just affect

anything that walked through it michael's apprentice would do more traditional towers that would just shoot at enemies i and the walls i decided yeah and walls yeah michael could also put down walls that would block enemies and prevent them from moving on until they destroyed the block which was really nice for strategy because like i put a wall down right in front of a trap or the aura and the enemy just gets stuck in it and so it was just helping the damage and so forth. So it was nice. Yeah, the hero that I picked first was the Huntress. I always will pick a ranged character. So for me, immediately, I did not want to play the Squire, which is more of like a sword and board warrior kind of hero. So I went with the Huntress. I love playing with bows and arrows or crossbows. And so I love the idea of doing that. And what the Huntress does that's

a little bit different is that she will put down traps. And basically a trap is relatively small, but once an enemy walks over it, then it explodes and hits a very large area, kind of like Josh's auras as the monk. So there's different types. They might just do fire damage, or they might do poison, or they might confuse enemies, things of that nature. And then also, the Huntress has the abilityress also has an ability where you can basically pierce enemies with a shot from your bow. So you could line everyone up, hit that one big ability that just runs all the way through all the enemies. So that was kind of the three that we picked. The game initially launched with four characters. There are eight additional characters that you can unlock through DLC, but none of us

sprung for that. We just played with the base version of Dungeon Defenders. All right, so let's go ahead and move on and talk a little bit about these two different phases. We've talked about there being the prep phase and the action phase. When you first start the game, when you first load in and you're taking a look at the map and you're preparing for that first wave, Josh, how does that work? What are you doing as preparation? So basically, you're trying to... This is where the tower

defense portion of the game really comes in, in my opinion, because this is the prep phase, right? The game tells you, hey, monsters are going to come out of these six different points on the map. So you know where they're going to spawn. You can kind of see it doesn't necessarily highlight the path, but it's pretty obvious the path that they're going to take to try to get to your crystal. Sometimes they can split, you know, and you don't know if they're going to go right or left. But ultimately, you know where they're going. And so in the prep phase, one of the things that I really enjoyed was trying to analyze the map. And these are fairly big maps. This is not a simple little corridor or something where you're trying to build

sequences of walls to try to stagger them or something like that. These maps are a decent size and there's multiple monster spawn points too. So you kind of got to survey the land. But I enjoyed trying to say like, this, this spot right here is a great choke point. Like we should fortify this area. And with the combo of characters that we were playing, Michael could put down a wall, which would help create a choke. You and I would both drop traps and auras on top of it. That way we can group up as many guys as possible, be as effective as possible during that time.

So I enjoyed that strategy aspect. There's also the mechanic in the prep phase of money. And so you can go around the map and collect these treasure chests that give you basically like mana that you can spend on your defenses. It's just a currency, really. And then once you're out of that mana, you can't build anything else. So you also have to be smart about how much am I going to build? Where am I going to build this? Maybe Paul's traps do more damage than my auras, but we really need a wall for Michael to

filter or funnel people into this spot. So that's where the tower defense strategy aspect comes from, in my opinion. And if you're a fan of tower defense, this is where you're going to thrive at, I think. Yeah, that's exactly right. The preparation phase is more or less just the tower defense phase, setting everything up. The only thing I would add on top of that, Josh, is that the game also gives you a limited number of defensive units. So that way you cannot just build an infinite number of traps on the battlefield so every aura tower trap whatever they are they all cost between three to five defensive units and maybe you only have 60 to spend on a certain map or maybe it's 80 or 90 or

110 and so there is a little bit of the strategizing by analyzing the battlefield and then also figuring out well how many of each kind of trap do we actually want? What's going to give us the most bang for our buck? And there were sometimes times where we were like, oh, we only have 10 defensive units and we don't really have anything on this path yet. So how do we want to spend it? And I thought that was always kind of fun. Yeah, they end up becoming more overlords the hive cluster is under attack

i mean that ended up becoming fun strategy too because then like you look at each of the characters abilities that you have and you're like hey is it like on some of these things it's like well i could put down uh like 10 walls but what's that gonna do or we just let him come get in the traps and use some of the strengths of the other characters. So to Paul's point, the strategy on this part is really well laid out. Yeah. And I think the really cool thing is that all of the doors where the monsters spawn tell you exactly how many of each type of monster is going to come through. And so if you're going to start fighting bigger enemies and you can see like,

okay, we're going to get four ogres coming through this door, then that might adjust your strategy. Because for me as the Huntress, I have traps that do lower damage but hit a ton of enemies, but I also had the option to put down traps that would do massive damage to a single enemy. And so this is all part of the strategy. Now, once you have your preparation done, at this point usually Josh and I had readied up and were yelling at Michael to please click the crystal. Oh, come on.

We're ready to get started. Michael was always shocked. He's like, oh yeah, I gotta click the crystal. I just forgot to click the crystal. And so now we actually start the action phase. Michael, do you want to kind of explain what are you doing as all the enemies are pouring in? Freaking out. Oh, what am I supposed to be doing?

Chicken with a tent cut off. Yeah, I'll tell you. Oh, poor chicken. I'll tell you real fast. So honestly, a lot of this action phase is really multitasking a whole bunch. And I'll go through the couple of things you're going to be doing and looking at. But let's just say if Overcooked is multitasking on a made-up scale of 10, this is probably like a 6 or 7 because you're kind of running around doing a whole bunch of things all in a level of priority. So the most important thing is as the mobs start pouring out

of these purple areas on the ground, these doorways, they're trying to get to your crystal. The whole point is for them to break the crystal. If the crystal breaks, you lose. And some of these maps have multiple multiple crystals so it kind of goes in the fact that you've got to look at the crystals on the map and you might not be near the crystals you might be over somewhere zerging down a whole bunch of mobs or in one of those final areas we talked about earlier because we kind of had them all go through this one trap and we can just kill them all there but then behind us some drake or some wyvern that's the better word because it's what they're actually called, wyvern will sneak up on you and just start attacking your crystal. You've got to look back and make sure that you don't let it destroy it.

And they don't follow the path. They don't. The wyverns will just beeline in the air. And so you don't even know. And so for a while, you're mostly just trying to destroy enemies as they're coming up and around the map. And you're getting an idea, though, of where they group up, so you can kind of make mental note of that

for the next build phase. Because if you see them all kind of ignoring one spot and you've got a bunch of traps there, you can get rid of that trap and put another one where you think they're going to path. As you're going also, though, it's important that you're able to repair things as you go. Because if you've got a couple walls in a good spot

that are making traps, and those traps are starting to get blown up by enemies because they're they're going to try and get through them you might need to go and pivot and repair the trap or repair the wall as you're also making sure you're paying attention to the crystal as you're trying to make sure that you're putting out the most damage so the damage meter for your character is the most so you got bragging rights right which was never me by the way it was literally never me and then like josh mentioned also you have to build money through the action phase also by these crystals that drop on the ground because that helps you build up your super abilities like

the mana bomb that i talked about earlier and so there's a whole bunch of different things you're doing but really the most important thing is to kill things going for the crystal uh so communication between you and your teammates is actually pretty important because if their crystal goes down you're done you gotta you gotta try again yeah and on top of that monsters are dropping loot so i think that's kind of like a nice transition to talk about the game's rpg systems because i'll be honest when josh and i first jumped in uh when michael was still working josh and i jumped in first and we did our first one or two maps. And I was like, I don't know what Remy is seeing because this is the most simple game I've ever played. I'm just running around

and left clicking on mobs and I can build a couple traps and everything's dying. But very soon I realized how deep the RPG systems actually go. And I ended up being pretty impressed at this part more than anything else, I would say. So I kind of don't know what you guys want to start off by talking about, but this game hits you with different weapon types for every hero. There's an upgrade system where you can upgrade your weapons. There's multiple armor slots. You can upgrade your armor. You can purchase pets that run around and fight with you. Every time you level, you get stats that you have to put into your character or into your structures. So what do you guys want to break down?

What did you find most interesting? For me, the gear system is what really made this feel like it had RPG elements. And I'm with you, Paul. This bear is saying that when we first jumped in, I remember it was like, you get a left click, which is melee attack. You get a right click, which is ranged attack. And that's kind of it. You can build some defenses and stuff, but you got to have money for it. And it takes a really long time to build something if you're trying to build during the action phase. And I was exactly like you. was just like dude this game is simple and kind of dumb but then that's where you know oh wait like this guy dropped a weapon on the ground oh let me go

grab that well where'd it go it went in my item box well why can't i use it right now you know so there's definitely that there's definitely that learning curve for a game that you think looks simple in premise. There is... What's the saying? It's like it's two feet wide, but a mile deep in this case versus a game that's very shallow and has nothing to it. This game's kind of the opposite. It looks very simple, but there's actually a lot of depth to the different mechanics in this game.

So for me, the items would just pour out like you, it was a pinata. You're slaughtering these, you know, hundreds of monsters and there's items all over the ground. Armors dropping, weapons are dropping weapons for your, your friends that you're playing with are dropping, but you can pick those up.

Yeah. Um, that kind of thing. And then it's like, well, where'd all this stuff go? And then, you know,

oh, well they're in the item box. So let's go look at the item box. Okay. Well I see, I've got 50 things. I have no idea what they are. You know, I've got boots. I've got gloves. I've got weapons. What the heck? How do I tell what's good? What's not? They all have eight stats. And I don't know what half of those stats mean.

Exactly. Yes, exactly. And so, but you do slowly start to figure that out. It's not too difficult, but it is just daunting at first. It's like, dude, what does this mean? Or a strength. Okay. Does that mean it's like how hard it is to kill? Does it mean how much it affects the monsters? I don't know these things. But what we discovered is that these are rich systems, man. You start getting weapon drops where it's almost following a Diablo-type naming system where it's like, it's a rusty sword. And then it's like, it's a fine sword. It's a polished sword. It's a godly sword. It's an impeccable godly sword of flaying or something like that. And you're like, this thing is great. I want to try this weapon out. Let me go equip this, guys. Hang on. Hang on. Don't start the next round. I want to try this weapon out. Let me go equip this, guys. Hang on, hang on.

Don't start the next round. I want to see what this does kind of thing. So it had a pretty robust equipment system, which I really enjoyed. Yeah, I liked how you really did have a lot more control over what your character does than I expected in the beginning. Because in the beginning, like, it's very simple.

You're like, okay, I'm doing this much damage when I'm pew-pewing, you know? And my towers, my little dragon towers that spit flames or the traps for other characters or the auras are doing X amount of damage. But as you level up, you really have a lot of choices if you look at the points that you're putting into the leveling system and so forth.

So for instance, you can choose to use your three or four points that you get per level to put into your character doing extra damage. As it into your character doing extra damage as far as like your character's combat abilities doesn't affect what your traps do doesn't affect what your auras do or you can choose to put all of it into the tower defense part of it where you sit there and you just say hey you know what we're just going to put a whole bunch of points into doing more damage with that stuff or a balanced build whatever you want but then you get into like the weapons and so forth like josh was talking about there was there was a couple of the levels we did where paul for

instance i think you had a bunch of things that weren't able to be hurt by lightning and you had a lightning weapon i think is what it was something like that and so when i picked up a weapon like i had a flame weapon and a lightning weapon and i'm like oh shoot you know what i'm gonna use the flame weapon instead because my buddy who i've got here with me can't attack things that are immune to lightning, and so I'm going to use a flame one so I can help him by killing those things. And if we would have both used lightning weapons, then all of a sudden Josh would have to kill these things,

and there's no way that he can be running all over the map doing an extra layer of multitasking. So there's a lot more strategy involved than I was expecting, and I kind of liked that. I actually started building it first, very character-centric, where I'm a wizard. I want to do lots of damage. But then I started putting points in my towers, and those things started to slay.

It was pretty cool. Yeah, the towers are very strong. I kind of realized pretty early on, oh, I should have just really probably pumped most of my points into my traps. Right. The one thing that I thought was really neat RPG wise is how you upgrade your gear. So for example, maybe you find that really cool weapon and you see that it's level one of 12 or maybe it's level three out of 15 or whatever it might be. And this is where the game really started to take off for me because you've got a lot of gear and they have all of these different

stats. Most of them are a benefit, but some of them will also take away other stats. So maybe this weapon gives you a ton of lightning damage, and it's got a huge clip of 60 arrows before you have to reload, but it's also going to give you a minus to your character movement speed, and maybe it'll give you a negative to your projectile speed. So when I shoot, the arrows are going to fly slower. Well, what the game lets you do is if you have enough mana saved up, because that's also part of the strategy, you can spend all of your mana during every prep phase, but you can also choose to hold some back and you can put it in your bank. And now you use all of this extra mana to upgrade your gear.

So I could go into my item box, click on my weapon, and maybe it says, okay, to upgrade to level two, you have to pay 250 mana. Okay, that's hardly any. Easy. And I do that. And then the game lets me click on what ability I want to upgrade. So maybe I want to increase so that it'll do even more lightning damage. Or maybe I want to reduce the penalty to make my arrows start to fly faster. And so the game, that's where it starts to give you more of that customization and giving you the loadout that you actually want. And some of these weapons are vastly different. I mean, you guys saw, especially, I mean, for me, I'm going to remember my weapons the most right sometimes i was running around with a single target crossbow and i would shoot like 14 times then i'd have to reload for a while i was using a gun that shot a purple sphere that would hit

the ground and then explode for aoe damage and so it was really fun to be able to swap between weapons figure out which ones do i like which which ones do I want to upgrade, and then what stats do I want to upgrade on it to make it more fun and make it more effective. And I thought that part of the game was probably my favorite thing that it offered. Yeah, don't forget also, one very important thing. When you max out, like you can level up your weapons as well. I think we talked about that. When you max out the level on your weapon and you can't put any more points into it, you can rename your weapon. And I renamed my favorite wand Bruce, because that's all I could think of at the time.

Go Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce!

Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce!

Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce!

Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce!

Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce!

Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce!

Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! I was going to say the equipment in this, it reminds me of Diablo in a lot of ways. Now, the stuff doesn't come shooting out and have a name on the ground like Diablo does. But as you start getting into the inventory system and the equipment system, you start to realize that this is definitely pulling from Diablo in some good ways. Very, very plentiful. You're constantly getting flooded with stuff, but maybe one out of a hundred is like an upgrade. But then you're looking at it going,

well, it's not an upgrade at level one, but if I start to upgrade this, this is actually going to be more powerful than my maxed upgraded weapon I'm using and I love right now. So there's that trial and error of let me test this, which can be fun in its own right to say, yeah, this thing feels great. Okay, now I'm going to level this one. And just when you think you found your favorite weapon or armor, you get something else that comes along. And then you go, let me try that out, man. And then you're like, oh, I really like, okay, I'm going with this one now. And then you got to level that one up. And it really just sinks its hooks into you because you're always looking for that next

thing or you're always getting that next thing, even if you aren't necessarily looking for it. Well, and the carrot that they dangle in front of you is that as you go through the initial campaign, which is what we did at first before doing anything else, but you would start to fight bosses. So for example, you'd go through your six waves or whatever, and then it would say boss incoming. And maybe you were fighting goblins that had like 300 HP. Well, now you're fighting a giant, huge monster. That's got 25,000, which is a lot when you're a low level, obviously not as much as you level and play higher difficulties. But then when we would kill that boss,

it would drop some killer loot. And maybe at the time we were like level 16 and it's dropping loot that you can't use until you're level 25. And so we were always saying like, oh man, once I hit level 25, I'm gonna have such a huge upgrade to this or that. And I found that that was a really good way to encourage you to keep playing.

And sometimes I wouldn't upgrade any of my gear because I was like, you know what? I only have to level two more times and then I'm going to have a better weapon. So I don't want to waste my mana now. And so it made it fun to just constantly tinker and level and get to upgrade new gear. I found it to work very effectively in that regard.

Yeah, and you would always get those like five or six levels before you could use them so it dangled the carrot really early and so you just gotten like let's say there's an upgrade at level 20 and then 22 i think in 27 or something like that well at 22 at level 24 i'm getting that 27 gear drop and i'm like i just upgraded but this thing that i just dropped oh my goodness it's like four times as powerful i can't wait to get there and it keeps you coming back and keeps you playing, just like Paul said. So it's like, it's the, you know, and it's very replayable as well, because you just, you go in,

you just smash a bunch of things, kill a bunch of things, different maps and just go again, you know? Yeah. This is an ad from BetterHelp Online Therapy. We always hear about the red flags to avoid in relationships, but it's just as important to hear about the red flags to avoid in relationships, but it's just as important to focus on the green flags. If you're not quite sure what they look like, therapy can help you identify those qualities so you can embody the green flag energy and find it in others. BetterHelp offers therapy 100% online and sign up only takes a few minutes. Visit

betterhelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com. So let's kind of divide the different parts of the game and talk about how well it works. So, like, Josh, if you look at Dungeon Defenders and you just, you know, look at its own merits in regards to tower defense mechanics, if you stripped everything else away and it was just a tower defense game. Do you think it would stand up on its own? I am a fan of tower defense. Almost every tower defense game that I've played has been 2D. You're usually looking at a map from the top down, and you're trying to create a path for the monsters to go. And then you're using all of your different towers for their different purposes. I will say, I think if you were playing with a single character, which is what most people would be doing, if you're playing solo,

I think it's going to lack a good bit in the tower defense only world, simply for the fact that when you start off, you get one, I'll just call them towers for simplification, but you get one tower that you can plop down and that's it. So a large part of the game in the beginning is relying on the melee and the action RPG mechanics. I feel like that changes as the game progresses and you get access to more towers, but every class, I think it's access to five towers, if I remember right, you know, and that's it. And so I'll say that solely based on the tower defense mechanics, if you're playing solo, I don't think it holds up real well. If you're playing with a group, I think that changes massively because now you're working hand in hand with

the other classes that you're playing with. And I feel like that's where the tower defense mechanics really came to the forefront is us strategizing my aura with Michael's walls and Michael's tower and Paul's traps. And if we put these combinations here, this will do this. If we put a different combination further down the map just to slow things down, that'll help us for when things get to the crystal and so on and so forth. So it's's like it kind of depends whether you're playing with friends or solo um is my lame answer on that but ultimately if i had to put i'd say they're weak by themselves what about you michael yeah i i agree with pretty much everything that josh just said as far as like you know i i get like it's going to be simple when you

start out the earlier levels almost any tower defense game you've got a couple of things you can do off the start but this one was really basic like you have enough for one tower one type that's it later on though I I don't know I I really want to try and imagine this game without the action rpg part because I think there's a way to play this game without ever firing a shot in action rpg you can probably be successful if you just upgrade only your towers and just for sure put them in the right spots and i think that i think it'd be fun but i think there's other tower defense games that might be more fun if you know what i'm saying like it'd be fun but i think there's other ones that just have a little bit more depth on the tower defense part. Yeah, if you're getting a little bit nitpicky, the one thing I didn't like is that each hero only had one type of structure to build.

So if all you can build are auras, it's just not going to be as interesting tower defense mechanic-wise as if you could build maybe one or two auras, one or two traps and one or two towers that would give it a lot more to it. So I think if you just look at the tower defense, especially playing solo, I would actually say it's not that good. And even if you played cooperatively and you just did the prep phase and you hit go and that was it. And you just sat back and watched, I would probably say it's like a four or five out of ten i would say it's not that robust but what's interesting is that it's not just a tower defense right so so tower defense wise it sounds like we all say that aspect is pretty good if that's all it was it would be a little weak how how would you look at the action

rpg elements by themselves because it's not as robust as playing diablo right right but it's still interesting it's also very simple though you've got a very simple map you're mostly going to focus on the center of the map if you're not doing the tower defense part right because things are going to come from everywhere and they're trying to get to your crystal so you can't just focus on coming to a certain hallway you're going to stand in the middle and just kind of shoot in circles probably and just destroy things it's almost like playing whack-a-mole like as it comes at you you kill it and you have certain abilities like two abilities i had the ability to shoot with my wand or use the knock

back ability and then maybe some of my some of my mon abilities which is you know a big bomb every like minute or so when i have enough of the crystals on the ground. I do think that it would be a little bit boring without the tower defense part. I think it would end up being just a little bit more of just standing there and shooting. So I mean, for me, the action part is very simple, but that doesn't mean it's not enjoyable. Again, I played as a monk who my big thing was guys throw me into the fray there. What? There's a thousand mobs coming from that corridor. I'll see you later guys. You know, and I would just wait in and then I'd be like, oops, I died, you know, or I, you know, or I got this, you guys go handle something else. I got this. And so Josh, no, seriously, there was a couple of times where I'm like, I'm trying to

kill this, this mob of things. And it's taken me like 30 seconds, and I'm getting nowhere. Josh just goes flying by on the screen. They're all dead, and I'm like, all right. But so they're very simple. There's no, I mean, each character is two activated abilities that you can use, but I'll be honest as an action RPG, while it is chaotic and I love chaos, the controls aren't very good. Like I wound up jumping a lot of times and I'd wind up standing on top of monsters and then I get stuck in it. Like, it's just,

I'm kind of like you, Paul, as an action RPG, I think I'd put this at about a 4 out of 10. It's not bad, but it's just definitely not good. So then here's the $64,000 question, which is probably a reference none of our listeners are going to get. You see a TV show. But the beauty of this game is that you've got both of these elements together. And I think the worst element of tower defense games

is that you're passively sitting by while the enemies are running through. So this game takes the tower defense, they let you build your towers, but then instead of it being passive, you get to run around with action. So is the sum of the two better than its parts? Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's the secret sauce right right it really is i i mean we just sat there and said each each individually is a four out of ten right but we kept playing put the two together and i'm like it's way better than it should right yeah i think it stumbled maybe not stumbled is is the wrong word but i think that this game

really discovered something really fun about this, which is taking the defense tower, adding in where you're actually running around in third person mode, or I guess you can also scroll your mouse wheel and go into first person. So I think that this game is rather ingenious in that way. And there's also another series that a lot of our listeners are probably aware of, which is Orcs Must Die. And that's actually a series I had played. I had never played Dungeon Defenders. And both of these series take exactly the same concept. Let's combine action RPG elements with tower defense. And I found it to be incredibly fun, especially with friends. So if you try to

play it solo, I don't think it's the same experience. I found a lot of the fun to be talking out loud, the strategizing, calling out who needs help where, calling out which crystal is being attacked. If you're going to play solo, I think you're better off with Orcs Must Die. It plays better for the solo player. But if you've got a couple friends that you're willing to play with or to just find groups online i think dungeon defenders is a really really good option if you like tower defense at all if you like action rpgs at all i think there's a pretty good chance you're gonna like this one yeah and it has a story too i can't tell you what it is but tell me what it is sometime yeah a fantastic story uh yeah and then the last thing i would just toss out is that there are a million dlc options for this game now being 12 years old or almost 13 so there's new maps

there's new challenge missions there's new costumes there's new heroes there is so much you can play i had a blast just playing survival mode and i every once in a while would get matched with someone who was like level 80 with really good gear. And I was just trying to run around as my level 30 squire and do my best to help out. Because I did dabble with some other heroes. But the Huntress was overall my favorite. But that tells you guys a little bit about what we think of Dungeon Defenders. Josh, you've got a couple community reviews.

I do indeed. We always go to reviews so that people can get more than just our perspective on a game. We always find a couple positives, a couple negatives, just to give everybody that kind of overall view of a game. This first review is recommended. This person has 831 hours on record. And I will say that I've seen some of the highest gameplay hours in Dungeon Defenders than any game. And that's like including Rust and stuff. I've seen people with 7,000, 8,000 hours in this game, man. So this review says,

Probably one of the most time-consuming games I have ever played. And I mean that in the most positive way possible. I have put countless hours into playing this game and it was all well spent. All the gameplay is smooth. Each class helps out the other when you get to higher difficulties. How could I forget the best part? The loot system. You're always looking for better quality items for your hero, and it's actually a nice grind.

I'm not going to make a huge paragraph about this game, but all I can say is it's worth every penny. Buy it. Totally agree with all that. And I think another huge benefit to this game is unlike playing something like Rust, where you kind of have to play long play sessions and be on a lot. In this game, you just play however many rounds you want, and then you can just quit. So especially when you're going through like the campaign levels, maybe it's only eight waves and you knock out your eight waves and maybe you're going through like the campaign levels, maybe it's only eight waves and you knock out your eight waves and maybe you're just done for that play session. And I

really enjoyed that aspect as well. Maybe you just play one round and then you quit for the night. And I found that you can play as long as you want, but you don't have to. You can cut it into small sections. And I really appreciated that. All right. This next one is not recommended. They have 31 hours on record and it says, I'll give the game this. It's enjoyable at first with friends, but it's badly designed,

imbalanced mess the further you progress. I'm glad I gave up on this as soon as I realized it. Well, that and the friend I was playing with quit too. The reason that I mentioned this one is because it does touch on a lot of what the negative reviews are, is that they say that, again, if you can put 800, 3,000 hours

into this game, you get to a point where you have to min-max and the balance of how difficult it is just doesn't start to pay off at that point. So a lot of the negative reviews in this game basically said, listen, unless you're that person that's willing to spend 1000 hours to min max every little stat, build up your armor so that you can survive a hit and that kind of thing. The end game to where you get into the super high difficulty levels just isn't worth it. Play it for what it is while it's fun. But just beware if you get too far into the end game part of it. Good thing it's cheap. Yeah, and I can't speak to what this game played like from 2010 for the next couple years,

but I do remember reading online that a lot of people said they really messed with the game's balancing right around the time Dungeon Defenders 2 came out. And I know a lot of people really had some negative backlash to that. So I wonder if part of that min-maxing, I don't know if that was before or after those changes, but I guess that also kind of messed up the game as well. Yeah. All right. This next one, 291 hours on record. Tower defense combined with third-person hack and slash. Creativity makes this game extremely fun. There are many different characters. Each has other unique defenses and abilities, a lot of interesting maps, challenges, opponents, and equipment. Also, the atmosphere of this game

is fabulous. Music, graphics, and game with your friends causing you to want to return to it. Incredibly many well-spent hours. the music was kind of fun i enjoy the music i don't know that the graphics brought me back to it but the graphics are fine but the graphics they're cartoony i mean you know they're serviceable graphics not but i didn't have any problem 2010 2012 though that's pretty far back and they held up today just fine their world of warcraft graphics yeah yeah very cartoonish too yeah all. And then this last one is not recommended 40 hours on record. And it says, don't get me wrong.

The game does have redeeming points for it. I just don't want to recommend it for being what I consider way too linear and doesn't encourage real creativity as much as I'd like, because I felt I was more driven to succeed due to difficulty level, even at lower difficulty. There seems to be a grind. A lot of grind perhaps is what it seems to be a grind, a lot of grind perhaps, is what it seems to be about. Do pick it up though if you don't mind repeating the missions over and

over to get better loot and upgrades. Missions that don't really offer variability at all once you do them, unless you ramp up the difficulty. It's a bit too steep for me, but I think those who like tower defense games can appreciate this one. So take it from a tower defense noob, it's not a hardcore, or take it from a tower defense noob, not a hardcore tower defense games can appreciate this one. So take it from a tower defense noob. It's not a hardcore or take it from a tower defense noob, not a hardcore tower defense fan. I think that's completely fair. And I will say that the game's difficulty meter and also the different mission selections, it is a two-edged sword because if this game just had a campaign and you beat 20 missions and then you're done you'd probably quit and not play it again so the whole idea of this game is to play it again

on a higher difficulty see how many rounds you can get through in survival and that gives it unlimited play time as long as you're enjoying the grind and so i feel like we've said this with a lot of games like this play it until it starts to feel grindy and then start a new hero or quit but if you just drop 15 in this game i guarantee you you're gonna get your money's worth and just quit as soon as it starts to feel that way paul just gave us a sneak peek behind his make love marry murder later all right well before we get there we have to guess the overall steam rating for dungeon defenders this game's been out for a long time um but we are going to actually guess what we think the the overall rating for this game is on the steam scale of zero to 100 percent um michael won last time hit the nail on the head

i got dead on what's your i've never your guess? I have no idea. Let's go with... Man, so it's been out for so long. We do all time, right? This is the all time score. All time reviews. Not recent. All time. You always get me, Josh, when you read a couple of negatives, and it always affects my score.

And I always start way too high. So I'm going to say 75. We're just going to split it and say that three quarters of people liked this game one quarter didn't that sounds super low to me i think this is gonna be in the 90s not winning this one i'm just like you got me you got it with the reviews again i was gonna say the fact that they were willing to follow this up with a free to play game and they were banking on people buying DLC and micro transactions tells me it must be pretty high. I bet it went through phases where people kind of review bombed it here or there. Normally, I would say like 96, but instead I'm going to say 93%. 93 for Paul.

I'm going to say I'm going'm gonna say 92 i guess 84 percent um i kind of was just a little safe on this one because i also didn't know and i thought man there's a lot of enjoyable stuff in this game but maybe people will find it simplistic and i just kind of went with the wimpy like mid 80s on this one so one of us hit the nail on the head once again and since i already said michael has no chance on this one paul it's either me or you and it's you buddy that's the bingo oh that's a bingo you just say bingo bingo how fun which is a very favorable rating on steam so that kind of gives you an idea of what people think about this game overall samsonite i was way off maybe it's on the briefcase look on the oh yeah it's right here samsonite i was way off i knew it started with

an s though i'll take it okay all right Paul, bring us into our next segment, buddy. Let's get everybody in the mood. All right, let's do it. Look over here. Excuse me, Huntress. I would like to extend to you an invitation to the pants party. The party with the pants. All right, everybody.

This segment is Make Love, Marry, or Murder. This is where all three... I had to get my anchorman on, guys. All right, I. This segment is Make Love, Marry, or Murder. This is where all three... I had to get my anchorman on, guys. All right, I just watched it. I showed it to my 13-year-old son for the first time. Still holds up, by the way. He absolutely loved it. I love lamp.

Yeah, I love lamp. Do you love the lamp brick, or are you just naming things in the room? All right, so this is where all three of us rate this game individually. Is this a game... Is this game marriage material Is this a game, is this game marriage material, or is it just make love, or is it murder? I found this game to be incredibly charming. I will say I am a sucker for tower defense games, just like Josh. I have played many of them over the years. Mobile games, I usually do not ever drop money, but I have probably bought five or six mobile games over the years.

I loved every aspect of this game. I did not love it for the first hour or two. I was making fun of it actively to Josh, and then at some point it just clicked as it got a little more complex. So once you level up a bit, I think it gets a lot better and more difficult, which I think is a good thing, I'm absolutely going to marry Dungeon Defenders. A marry from Paul. Wow. I really enjoyed this game. I thought I was going to hate this game in the very beginning. The first play session, I kind of said, man, this game's dumb. All I'm doing is like the controls aren't good. My guy just kind of swipes in front of them and I hit things and oh, I've got a little right clicky thing that sucks too.

And I've only got one tower. Like what's going on? Like this is terrible. Like why would Remy pick this for us? And then we got into it and we got to play together and I found myself just having a blast, man. Yeah. Every time we were in the thick of things and chaos is happening, Michael's yelling for help, falling off of ledges.

I did do that once. We're 15 hours in before he realizes he's got this thing called mana bomb that can absolutely obliterate everything on the map. Also true. You know, and I just, I found myself just having fun, man. Like, no, you know, this is not, you know, some Oscar winning game. It's just stinking fun, man. I'm marrying it, too, to be honest with you. I don't know that I'll ever play it again, to be honest. But this game with friends is an absolute blast, man. You cannot go wrong if you've got a couple buddies to play this game with. And I think if you really get into it, you could put like 1000 plus hours into this game as well. So for me, it's a Mary and that surprises me. But it also says a lot about the game itself. Yeah, I don't need to defend the dungeon. The dungeon defends itself because it's a really good game. i really congratulations

you know you got a mary from all three of us i think that triple mary i i loved this game i thought it was charming it was a lot of fun it was the characters like the artwork i don't like cartoony things but it really worked in this game the art style really worked out well for this i mean at the very end you know not i don't think this is a spoiler because this game doesn't really have a story. But like one of the last bosses we're fighting is this like dragon that's going from tower to tower and crumbling things. And it's a cartoon dragon that was totally scary, but also totally adorable. And I know I'm going on artwork for a little bit.

I'll get off this. I promise. I just it was fun as again, as I don't play the tower defense games. Really? I can't remember. I can't name a tower defense game that I've played. I know I've played some. Bloons Tower Defense?

I don't even know what that means. Oh, wow. Yeah. It's not even a genre that I know if I dislike or like because I never touch them. And this kind of gave me a peek into, hey, this is kind of cool, the strategy part. Maybe I want to check out a tower defense game later on because i've already played a lot of action rpg games but i think you marry all that stuff together and it's just a fun game to play with friends it's how much was this game cheap 15 bucks 15 for 15 bucks it goes on sale a lot yeah for 15 bucks you're getting a game that has stood the

test of time it's you know it's over a decade old. It's super fun. Every time we were talking in Discord and trying to sort our calendars together between the three of us and play, I was excited. I was like, yes, I get to play this game tonight. And that's a merry for me easy. I had a feeling it might be a triple merry because it's pretty rare that when we all three get on for a play session that no one seems to want to quit like every time we were almost done josh was like all right let's start up the next one and i was like all right i guess josh is liking it it's not like it was not it was never pulling teeth to get someone to play we were always very willing to hop yeah there's one one final comment too because i know josh said this

he was like ready why did you pick this game for the first hour or so and we don't know sometimes if when you go legendary you're gonna just troll us and just pick some game for the first hour or so and we don't know sometimes if when you go legendary you're gonna just troll us and just pick some game that we want to smack our faces against the wall and i'm sure at one point each of us was like is he trolling us but no you picked a great game i definitely recommend this to anyone who wants to have a good time for several hours totally agree yeah it was it was a lot of fun all right right, well, we only have one segment left, guys. Let's go to the leaderboard and see where this game stacks up. All right, so being a triple Mary here, I assume we're going to put it here in the top half of our games. If anyone is new to the show and doesn't know about our leaderboard, anytime we do a deep dive at the end of the episode, we have to rank it as a three-man

consensus. We have to agree, how does this game stack up against every other deep dive game that we've done? We currently have a list of 86 games. This will be number 87. You can see the full list at multiplayerpodcast.com. But we've got some things in here just to give you a couple of highlights. We've got Disco Elysium at number 5. We've got Halo Infinite at number 18. The Forgotten City at 28. V Rising at 38. Operation Tango at 50. So on and so forth. And down near the bottom, we've got some stuff like The Forest at 81. And we've also got Hood Outlaws and Legends at 84. So looking here at Dungeon Defenders, what do you guys think? What range are we looking at?

This one's a tough one for me for the leaderboard because all three of us married it. We said this game is a lot of fun. I'm having a hard time on this one because I have to compare it to other games where they're co-op type games. And it's like, Broforce jumps to mind. Had a lot of fun playing that. That's chaos. Would I rather play this or would I rather play Broforce? That's a tough call for me, man. Oh, that is tough. That is tough. And so that tells me that in my mind, I think it's somewhere in the late 30s-ish. If I had to throw a dart and say at least what part of the leaderboard are we going to be on? For me, I would put it a little bit higher.

The spot I was thinking would be below Risk of Rain 2, Splitgate, and Demio. But I would probably put it above Hollow Knight and The Forgotten City. I would put it at 27. But that's just me. So what are you thinking, Michael? I would be higher than Josh. I'm looking at games that I'm like, okay, when you look at a Triple Mary, you're thinking, okay, easy top 20, no problem. But a lot of those games are iconic. A lot of those games are games that have 60 hours of playtime. You'll go back and play it every five years. And it's something you'll talk about, a memory that you had, or you might hear a song that sounds like something that reminds you of

that game, and you'll never forget that. That's a top 20 game. This is not a top 20 game. So I think mid-20s, you're in a good spot. I think that, would I rather play Hollow Knight? That's tough. I haven't played much Hollow Knight. I played about two hours. I loved it. Would I rather play this than Nier Automata? Probably. That's number 31. So I'd probably

put it right in the same range. Forgotten City's tough for me because it's just a darling gem, but you can play it one time, really, and you're done with it. This game I can come back to. So I'd say one spot above that feels good to me. One spot above Nier Automata? So at 30?

No, one spot above Forgotten City. Oh, okay. So Michael and I were almost exactly the same. Honestly, I think I would have a hard time putting it above Hollow Knight, to be honest with you. I know I'm higher than both of you on that game. I'm fine putting it at 28, to be honest. If we're in agreement there, then I could see that. All right.

I don't want to make Ace of Shame cry if we bump down Hollow Knight. We know how much he loves that game. I know, right? Dude, Hollow Knight's beloved by a lot of people just not on this podcast i like it i like it because ace of shame thanks for the gift all right so do we want to lock it in between hollow knight and the forgotten city let's do it i think that's fine that's a good spot and this you know that's to be said this game is older right like we get it but it doesn't matter it It's just fun. It's fun to play. I had a great

time playing this game. Solo, I think, would be a different experience. If you played this game solo, I would not rate it anywhere near this spot on the leaderboard. But this is the Multiplayer Gaming Podcast. We played it together. It's meant to be a co-op game, and that's kind of how we're rating it. And all that into account, i think 28 is a fine spot for it you know what makes me kind of rate it high too is like i know that we all played it together we probably won't play it again together we might never play it again but let's say that a buddy of mine is like hey man i'm looking for a good co-op game i heard of this game it's called dungeon defenders you want to try it out and i'll be like heck yeah i'll play it with you man and i'd go right back in and pick a different character and play it again. Yeah, totally agree. And also, I know for me, I put a

lot of weight into The Most Bang for Your Buck. And I feel like for $15, you're going to get a lot of content out of this one, even if you don't buy any of the DLC. All right. Well, that wraps up this episode. We want to say thank you again to Remy for going legendary and picking this game. I don't know that I ever would have played it. I felt very satisfied with Orcs Must Die. And it's only because of Remy that we picked this one up. And so as a reminder, if you want to get bonus episodes, you can sign up on Patreon at MultiplayerSquad.com. And if you have a game that you would love us to play, you can always suggest it to us on Discord or on socials at MultiplayerPod. Or if you sign up as legendary, you can always suggest it to us on discord or on socials at multiplayer

pod or if you sign up as legendary you can always select it for us we would love for you guys to sign up and let us know and also we hope that you'll come back on thursday when we break down recent gaming news with our this week in gaming episode and uh do you have something for us Josh I was I was hand signaling to Michael answering a question for him I'm like I don't know sign language all right well thank you so much everyone for listening

we're trying to have a sidebar conversation no no I thought you were telling me I was forgetting something Paul keep going we're totally totally listening, I promise. I'm sure. I know everyone tunes out the outro. All right, well, thank you, everyone, for listening.

Until next time, happy gaming. Oh, man. Cheers, all. All right, see you, everybody.