Video Gamers Podcast - Game Court: Indie vs. AAA - Gaming Podcast

Episode Date: June 19, 2025

Gaming Hosts Ryan, Ace and Josh are back in court to argue another hot topic in gaming! Which are more important to the video game world - Indie games or AAA titles? On this episode of Game Court, Ace and Ryan go head to head to stand up for their cause and argue their cases to see which video game developers and games are most important. It’s a fun, zany video game packed episode from your favorite gaming podcast! Thanks to our MYTHIC supporters: Redletter, Disratory, Ol’ Jake, Gaius and Phelps Thanks to our Legendary Supporters: HypnoticPyro and Patrick Connect with the show: Support us on Patreon: patreon.com/videogamerspod Join our Gaming Community: https://discord.gg/Dsx2rgEEbz Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/videogamerspod/  Follow us on X: https://twitter.com/VideoGamersPod  Subscribe to us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@VideoGamersPod?sub_confirmation=1 Visit us on the web: https://videogamerspod.com/  Follow us on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/videogamerspodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Get to Toronto's main venues like Budweiser Stage and the new Roger Stadium with Go Transit. Thanks to Go Transit's special online e-ticket fairs, a $10 one-day weekend pass offers unlimited travel on any weekend day or holiday, anywhere along the Go network. And the weekday group passes offer the same weekday travel flexibility across the network, starting at $30 for two people and up to the video gamers podcast. Hello fellow gamers and welcome to the Video Gamers Podcast. Indie games vs AAA. Is one better than the other? From cutting edge graphics and unbelievable highs, AAA gaming has given us some of the

best games of all time. But indies give us heart and passion, art and music, and sometimes hit way harder than we think. Today, we're taking this age-old debate to court and hearing the case of Indy vs. AAA. But first, some introductions are in order. I am your judge, Josh, and joining me, he wasn't sure how he felt about defending AAA titles until I reminded him how much time he put into Destiny and Destiny 2, and then he remembered how much he loves

live service games. It's Ryan. Wait, wait, where the heck is Ryan, dude? Oh, okay. Oh, oh, oh, shit. Oh. Oh, shit. What? I'm sorry, I'm here, Your Honor. I'm sorry, are we good?

Did I miss anything? Yeah, where have you been? How's your security here? You good? Pretty good? Yeah, this is a legal court. I understand, Your Honor. I apologize. I was delayed. For court? This is important! What the heck?

I plead with you, Your Honor, please. Okay, well you catch your breath while I introduce this other gentleman that wasn't late. I apologize. And joining us... he's the man that's never met an Indy he didn't love. Well, at least he's good at faking it Listen your honor. I would like to call for a mistrial as my My opponent here was late Yeah late his own court date. You know that that will be taken into consideration

Council don't you worry you guys have a pen does anyone have a no oh? Here we go no I got one I got okay. Hey, dude Who's gonna know if the Yankees won last today the Yankees that they were a ball yet? No, they did never mind never mind. Don't worry about it Alright, you know what I'm the judge today. I demand order in this court while I welcome everybody in Welcome to game court everybody. We're back. This is going to be a blast. I look, our first game court was a lot of fun. We love these debates that gamers have and man, we have a debate for the ages with, you know, indie expert ace here to defend all things Indy. Ryan looking like he's afraid of something.

You keep looking over your shoulder. I'm here. Do you owe somebody money? Is that what you say? No, no, no. No? OK. Yeah, no, no, no.

OK. Are you prepared for this? Yes, yes. Your honor, I was not in the vicinity of Wrigley Park from 2 to 4 last You don't need an alibi for this. Oh, yeah. Are you in the wrong court? Oh, no. No, I got it I got it court sir. I got this one. Yes. Yes game court. Okay. Okay. All right. Just make it. Okay Alright, just make it. Okay. You're so stupid.

Oh man. Alright, listen, welcome in everybody. We're going to argue. For those that missed the first GameCourt episode, we're back. The goal of this is to argue things that gamers argue about. I get to be today's judge and I am not going to be a kind judge. I can tell you that. I will say this as the judge, I am actually a hundred percent impartial to this argument. So I am going to actually judge based on who makes the best arguments in this case. I love

indie games. I love AAA games. I'm going to pose some questions to you guys. I ain't making your lives easy on this one either. For those listening, Ace is going to be defending trip or I'm sorry, indie games. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I wasn't ready for that. I was not ready for that. Switch up. Hold. Yeah. So so Ace is going to be defending indie games. Ryan is going to be defending AAA games. The argument here is, is one better than the other. As far as you know, you know, gamers are concerned or the gaming industry is concerned. I can see this going both ways in all honesty.

So we also may allow the listeners to vote on a punishment for the loser of this episode as well. So we hope you stick with us till the end because there may be a punishment on the line on this one also. So, alright, you boys ready to get into this? Ryan, you look like you're settled down now. Yes, yes sir. You're in the right place. Ace is like, bro, I've never done this before. I don't know how I feel about arguing with somebody. I'm the least argumentative of us all, I think. Yes, that is very true.

All right, well, I'll tell you what, man. You guys, Ace, why don't you start us off? Why don't you give your kind of opening statement on why you think the Indies are better than AAA games? All right. Your honor, esteemed members of the jury, today I stand before you not merely as a defender of our pixelated dreams, our crowdfunded hopes, but as a lover of the freedom of creativity

and artistic integrity in the gaming innovation world. I stand in defense of indie games, the underdogs of the passion projects, the soul of our new industry, and I contend that in many ways they are far superior to triple-a games starting off of course with exhibit a creative freedom versus the corporate formula of in of gaming triple-a titles are built on the investments of the people who want to see them succeed not on the love they have for the gaming world and the games they create. What say you to this, Ryan? Ryan? Your opening argument, good sir? Well, ladies and gentlemen of the jury,

thank you for having me here today. Sorry for my abrupt entrance and I apologize again for being late. It's Ryan. We're used to it. That's pretty good. You're breaking character. This ain't the first time Ryan's been late to recording. You're breaking character. Homie, I'm going to be late to my funeral.

Sorry. Okay. I'm sorry. I had my funeral. Oh, I... Sorry. Okay, okay. I'm sorry. I had to. It was just right there. It was teed up, but I could not swing at it, man. Okay, go ahead. Sorry.

Back to your opening statement. Well, ladies and gentlemen, wouldn't it be nice to live in a land of sunshine, fairies, and rainbows? I, for one, would absolutely enjoy such an experience, but we don't. We live in the real world where pride, passion, and excitement does not make a good game, does not make quality graphics, and does not make my eyes stop from bleeding. Ladies and gentlemen, AAA games are where they are because they are that. They are AAA. They are quality, they are graphically, visually a masterpiece in most cases. So I would like you today to consider not just if, but why AAA games are better than

indies. All right. Strong arguments, you two. So this, you guys have presented the arguments. The case in front of us is our indie games better than triple a games All right, I'll hear arguments who wants to go first. I will allow my opponent the first rights, okay? So Ryan you're up man argue your case as to why triple a is better. I Think we're gonna first start with just overall quality of the game visually and gameplay

AAAs tend to offer the ability to have a substantial budget difference from our indie counterparts there allowing them to develop some of the most innovative and beautiful things we have ever seen in all of gaming. This is one area that indie games just no matter what, cannot touch. You know, a broken clock is right twice a day. You'll get those gems with indie games. I'm not going to take away from them. But in AAA games are far superior. So they're far superior because they're graphically better.

That one among many other reasons. Oh, OK. Well, AAA titles are built on investment risks within their management. They're focus tested and equally and equally greenlit by their sequels, by spreadsheets. As a result, we get annual franchises that get more and more crappy every year. You don't get that with indie games Indie games you get a hit because that was the one sole project a team worked on That they truly cared about and they wanted to put a good game out in the world Triple-a council, I'm gonna have to interject something here

I have a question for you on your case and something that you just said you said that Indie games are good. And how do you explain the plethora of terrible indie games that exist in the world? Well, those aren't the ones that succeed now, are they? Yeah, I have a few swinging of misses out there. Triple A titles still make money when they make bad games. And we continue to feed that spirit of making bad games because we keep paying for them. We vote with our wallets and we vote wrong a lot of the time. Fair. Fair. Okay. Objection.

For what? I didn't like what he said. Okay. Overruled. Ryan, you gotta win this one. Okay. Okay. All right. Ryan you gotta win this one! Okay. Alright. Indie games by contrast however are free from the shackles of these budgets and these time crunches so you end up with a usually finished imperfect product that you'll remember for

ages honestly. And they're timeless because the graphics are not always trying to keep up with what is the most realistic I Would like to say your honor that I feel they are timeless because they are stuck in time they are stuck in 1992 and I'll call back to my eyes bleeding Oh Do you have an example of a recent game maybe Hollow Knight makes your eyes bleed. Do you have an example of a recent game? Maybe?

You know the name escapes me. I believe it was called Mina the Hollow. Oh, it was my my prior Oh, I will not stand for that game to be named in this court. I apologize Your honor, I apologize. That game is even out yet your honor. You can't possibly put that into this deliberation It may never come out and then it wouldn't be admissible evidence. Here's the deal. AAA games, and we are talking basically based on visuals at this moment, there just cannot be a scale that indie games can match. The budget is not there. Sure, like I said, you get those ones that come every once in a while, but AAA games, graphically over the whole, are far superior and that is the first of many notches in AAA category.

Council, what do you have to say about the move of AAA gaming towards the live service model which most gamers would consider to be a detriment to gaming at this point. How do you reconcile that with gamers? Oh well your honor I would say that change sometimes is uncomfortable well be it for the betterment of the community at large. More money for developers equals better games, better advancements, better updates, and ultimately a better experience. Therefore, while people may not like it, it is not changing, so you better buckle up and get used to it. So you're saying that live service games lead to the greater good when it comes to gaming?

Absolutely. Okay. Opposing counsel, what's your take on that? My take on live service gaming being something we just have to accept and move on with. It comes back to voting with your wallets and learning that maybe you shouldn't keep encouraging these behaviors and allowing companies to get away with, you know, throwing up a live service game that's up for like five years. They got all your money and now it's gone. Now you're out of it.

What do you have? You have nothing. No cosmetics, no game, no friends. No friends. out of it what do you have you have nothing no cosmetics no game no friends no friends let me let me ask you a question Indie Council name name three of the best games ever made three of the best games ever made yes if you if you would humor me if I would humor you for three of the best games ever made hmm I suppose you want me to say Red Dead Redemption 2. That would be considered widely one of the best games ever made. I would say Hollow Knight is high up there with one of the best games ever made. Okay a little bit of bias. Quite considerably so. Most people. Especially somebody that loves Metroidvanias and has actually said that they think that there's better Metroidvanias out there.

That doesn't mean it isn't the best one everyone else thinks It was never me. Let me just be let me just be direct with you on this one Some of the best games ever made Red Dead Redemption 2 God of War cyberpunk Elden Ring. These are all triple-a studios Mm-hmm. So how do you how do you make the defense for indie games when some of the most beloved games in the world come from? triple-a studios That's a great question, But those AAA studios started with these characters. So there's already nostalgia for a lot of them. And some of them have already built Goodwill CD

Project Red and expended it upon release as well by releasing broken games. You don't get that from indie games. Indie game developers will spend meticulous amounts of time making sure every little piece of their game is finished before releasing it to the public even going so far as to releasing it in early access which kills a lot of them I know because they hate it but it gets all the bugs sorted out before the full release thus giving you a full complete product that you don't get in every AAA game. Give me two more days. Just two more days. Okay. I gotta go home in court. Counsel, is there an issue? No, I'm sorry, sorry. My mom's sick. Were you? I heard mention of owing money. No, no, no, no, no. Anyways, games, AAA games,

Your Honor. Yes, thanks for rejoining us here. Ace just made mention that indie games are made with passion. They're often complete games without the bugs that gamers have been told to get used to but refuse to get used to. Day one patches, stuttering, crashing, that sort of thing, which is more prevalent in the AAA universe. What do you have to say about that? Well, you know when

You're you're managing five or six pixels pixels on a screen, you know, it's it's not too hard to Navigate around that these these triple-a games are immense. They they are terabytes of code that they have to go through I terabytes of code that they have to go through. I, quite frankly, am surprised it's not even worse on launch days with how much they have to manage. Council, I'm going to have to remind you, I know you keep pandering to me about poor graphics, but let me remind you of a recent release of a game called Expedition 33, which has proven to be one of the most successful indie releases in quite some time Is an easy front-runner candidate for game of the year, which was made by an indie studio

How do you reconcile that with the triple-a studios? Not being able to provide that quality of game with three times the amount of developers Well, I would say How often does that happen? You call this game so amazing, one of the largest indie releases, because it is so rare. Games like this, that launch this way, that look this good and play that well, I will give it to Expedition 33. It is a fine, fine game, for what it is. Objection, Your Honor.

These games don't happen often. They don't... He would dare say, for what it is, to Expedition 33, the game that redefines the turn-based genre. Sustained. Good point, Council. Redefines for who? Good sir. People who enjoy turn-based gaming?

Therefore, it is a niche audience, which is why they are in the... Oh, Final Fantasy is niche. Oh! Well, Final Fantasy is a niche all well Final Fantasy is a triple a studio so yes but that is a turn-based game in that would mean they feed to the turn-based genre of gamers basically y'all games are ugly oh I see how it is let's talk about some of the games that aren't ugly specifically it on 33 and lies of P

Okay, both are absolutely stunning Graphically and match up to any triple-a studios work See two games you got two games Yeah, go ahead. What else you got? Like your honor. I'd like to request three more games to make a nice five. That's just that's a fair request Can you name three other indie games that are considered beautiful? Hollow Knight for one. Hollow Knight is beautifully hand-drawn.

Ultros has a stunning art style that you will find nowhere else. Dang, he's doing this quicker than I thought. It's like he just did an episode of indie art. It's almost like I did an episode of indie artwork, huh? And as a little bias to myself, Ender Lilies and Ender Magnolia have stunning art and visuals that evolved throughout its evolution as a sequel as well. They were hand drawn, beautifully done by individuals

of an indie studio. Not like to hear the argument from both of you in regards to gameplay when it comes to games, because let's be honest, as gamers, if you don't have gameplay, you only have an experience and we can get that at the movie theater. So I would like for both of you to address how gameplay matters in each of your perspective clients. I mean, gameplay defines how much you enjoy a game, but it's built around the other elements as well as like

good music, good sound design, good characters, good writing. You get most of that from indie games, specifically like, let me think here, Hollow Knight, we're going back to Hollow Knight. It has fantastic gameplay, character design and mechanics that took a genre that AAA studios wouldn't touch for the longest time, thevania genre and it brought it back into the limelight to where now We're seeing Metroidvanias every other year from people some truly impressive and truly evolve upon the genre itself Listen what what do you always hear every Indie bro say? All the assassin creeds are the same all the cards are the same you got to hear the music

The music you got to listen to the music man. This is got this killer soundtrack. This one's got a banger of music That's cuz their gameplay sucks They gotta go to the music, because that's all they have! You dare say some slanderous words in GameCorp! Bob and Jim ran out of coffee yesterday, and they're the ones that are designing all that, and they can't get to it because they're too busy listening to music! Yeah. Sorry, bud. Truth hurts. If gameplay of indie games sucks so much, why do you enjoy Risk of Rain 2 so much?

Ooh! If gameplay of indie games sucks so much, why do you enjoy Risk of Rain 2 so much? Ooh. There's not standout music in Risk of Rain 2. It is solely the gameplay. Because I like to punish myself. Why do you have to tell the whole world, okay? Do you have a counter example of a AAA title there, Ryan? A AAA title that... Has beautiful music or stands up to the indie level of music or sound? Oh man, uh

God of War 2018 Has pretty good as pretty pretty amazing music as well as Ragnarok soundtrack from round blood upon the snow. Yeah Ladies and gentlemen of the jury and listeners aka that's you guys Check that song out if you haven't. It's really good. I will agree.

Back to court. Back to court. You're like, no, I disagree. I disagree greatly. So which category would you say has better gameplay elements to it? I think, Your Honor, it is clear and open for anyone to see. Triple A titles have the superior gameplay, the ability to create a polished experience, albeit there are updates, there are first-day patches, you know, nobody's perfect.

The experience as a whole is far superior with Triple A games. They just are able to produce a better product. I don't know. I think the Witcher's gameplay sucks. Oh, oh, oh, Bailiff, remove this man from my courtroom! Right now! That means a mistrial, right? We're good to go? You know, not like exceeding photographs and rock stars. Are you trying to anger the judge, Ace? What is going on here, man? You are non-biased, sir.

Yeah, you are non-biased. I'm non-biased, you're right. Okay, I would like to talk about, I would like you guys to address something. This is a concern that comes up a lot of times, is that for every publicized failure of a AAA title, title and boy do we see them lately I mean there are a myriad of failures that make Mind's Eye is the most recent where was that triple-a though? I'm pretty sure it was yeah because it was in the place we won't verify that we don't have time for that right now but you know so for every publicized failure of a triple-A title, there are a thousand indie titles that nobody ever even hears about or discovers, you know? And so the thought

process behind that for a lot of gamers is that any schlub that knows a modicum of programming can make an indie game. Whereas to truly make a triple-A title, you have to have a lot of knowledge. You have to have a large team. You have to have talent that goes behind that. So I would like both of you to address that thought process and whether it's right or wrong. Well, we've seen masterpieces made by small groups of people, Expedition 33, for example, 30 people made that game. That's insane. I think you do need talent to make a good game, but that's for any kind of anywhere

you work. AAA, indie, doesn't matter. However, AAA studios can get away with putting out a bad game because they didn't get enough of a budget to pay for it and put forward into it. And maybe there wasn't someone who's super close on the project who cared enough about it to make sure it was a polished experience and an enjoyable game for people.

The Chevrolet employee pricing event is on now. Get a big cash purchase discount of up to $11,300 on the 2025 Chevrolet Silverado LDZR2 and Silverado HDZR2. With a factory installed lift kit and Multimatic DSSV dampers on both the Silverado LD and HDZR2, you'll have all the capability you need

to leave the asphalt behind. Hurry in, employee pricing is on for a limited time. Visit your local Chevrolet dealer for details. Ryan. Visit your local Chevrolet dealer for details. Ryan. Oh, your honor, my client, Clarissa, never ever took those things from Walmart. She was not in that area at the time.

She was actually at her job. Was her job at Walmart? I think you have your notes messed up again, counsel. I'm sorry, Game Court, that's right. Um, yeah, can you give me the question again, sir? Sorry. What do you have to say about the failure of AAA titles being publicized compared to titles that go unnoticed. Yeah, okay. Ah, your honor. So, equally so, as when I said it happens so few that the indie games, again, my opponent here mentions Expedition 33. I'm sure they do that a lot because there's so few in the well. With AAA titles, these issues happen and these

launches are, you know, not done well, well not done right a lot of issues that happen When that happens you hear about because it happens so so you know there's not a lot of man I'm stumbling all over myself man. I got give me one second honor Yes, I got the money. Okay, all right Okay, that's cleared up. Sorry Okay I got the money, okay. All right. Okay, that's cleared up, sorry. Ha ha. Ah, okay. AAAs are better. They got better budgets, better everything.

That's the bottom line. So they're better because they have a bigger budget. Is that, that's your argument? Bigger budget, better people, better ability to hire, better music, better graphics. What do you want? AAA Council, what do you say to the gamer take that AAA studios are run by

suits that don't know anything about gaming and only care about profit margins and actually help to contribute to the death of quality games? I would say that those are your indie fanboys that have, you know, not really looked at the top games in the last decade. As you mentioned prior, we have CD Projekt Red, we have a lot of these large developers that create some of the most amazing, involved masterpieces you could ever hope to play as a video game consumer. This is what you look for. This is what you you hope to have. When you see indie games you you

may think they're neat. Oh that's cool for an indie. Triple-A titles will always be at the top. You know there's one Triple-A title that I feel like you're leaving out here and a studio as well like for every rock star and CD project red you have your Ubisoft's and your yeas the ones Are horrible, I will say okay Okay All right, you indie council I another take the gamers have addressed with indie games is that every indie studio wishes

that they were a triple A studio. If you make a game, we'll take Expedition 33 as a recent example. It is almost guaranteed that some huge publisher will attempt to buy out the studio that made Expedition 33 and then they become what they hate which is a triple-a studio and Most studios will absolutely take this offer because they're doing this to make money to provide for their families What do you have to say about the the thinking that every indie studio wishes they could be a triple-a studio? I think that's just a assumption because we do have a indie studio that is not a AAA studio and they won Game of the Year. Larian Studios created Baldur's Gate 3. They did not sell out after they finished Baldur's Gate 3

because they have a vision with that game. They wanted it finished. They wanted everything they wanted in that game and then they moved on. They didn't let someone buy them out. That does seem to be... Larian Studios does seem to be the exception to that rule, but I'd like you to address that most- Team Cherry? The people behind Hollow Knight currently working on Silksong? Silksong's coming! They are? They are, they're working- What's this game? What game? What game? What game you speak of?

Oh boy. I would like that struck. What is this? What? What? What? Please, Your Honor, objection. Silksong does not exist. Now hold on, buddy buddy boy we got images with release dates as your honor my opponent here is coming up with these these frivolous games that don't exist and only our fairy tales I would like all of

that struck from the record please fair point counsel silk song does not exist that we know of so I'm gonna ask the court reporter can you please strike that from the record? Yes, okay great Thank you your honor a lot of indie studios though remain independent as both the developer and the publisher take for example Yeah club games. Yeah club games is the what what games did they make they make the shovel night games every Any other games that they're currently making? Any other games that they're currently making? Hold on they've only Your honor your honor. They've only been making it for like two days, so give them a break

It's his face, I'm sorry Oh man You walked right into that one He just He just Oh my gosh, okay, that was that was amazing Okay, go go yacht club games we love yacht Really do love you

That we're picking on me know the hollow or so much, but you guys are awesome Okay, so yacht club games you were using it as an example Yes, they are another example of a developer that has been producing their own games and now also gosh, darn it Okay guys do you ever just listen to our podcast and go like, man, we're so stupid sometimes? I don't have to listen to it to think that. Oh, my goodness. Okay.

All right. You know what? We got to get to closing statements here, so let's do this. I'll be honest. I'm still on the fence. I legitimately don't know who to side with on this one So Ryan ace gave the first opening statement. Why don't you give your closing statement as to why? Triple a games are the most important to the gaming industry Alrighty, so I'm gonna cut right to the chase here indie games have their place

I will not take away from what they are and what they've created in the gaming space that we all love having said that Triple-a titles will always be at the top. They give you a bigger world better AR AI multiplayer interactions that are typically top-notch and the constant continuous Development of quality as a whole over indie games. That's why AAA titles will always end are the best.

All right. Your honor. Indeed. In a world of battle passes, live service fatigue and cinematic trailers with no gameplay that over promise and under deliver indie games dare to care about the player. They risks where triple-a games won't they tell the stories triple-a games won't they treat the players not as wallets but as fellow adventurers in their games so I ask you and the members of the jury when you strip away the marketing the motion capture the million dollar explosions which games truly make you feel tell me which games truly make you feel something.

Ooh, that was a good closing argument. I was angry when I paid 40 bucks for midnight walk. And I tell you one thing I didn't say, I'm glad they dared to care. Oh, man. That was still their vision, their artistic vision and what they wanted and we're in the minority. Alright? Everyone else loves that game.

Yeah, that's, that is fair. Alright, I mean, I'll be honest, you guys both made good arguments. I will say, you guys did. You guys both made good arguments. I will say in all transparency because I want to be a fair and impartial judge unlike Ryan Who had his mind made up before the episode even started? I do tend to lean triple-a titles. I think that they push the envelope of gaming I think that they are responsible for advancing gaming, the technology, the experiences.

If you look at my top five games of all time, they're all AAA titles. It is very hard to get that experience from an indie game. However, I think we're seeing a shift. I think we're seeing fatigue for the AAA title. The companies that shall not be named, like EA and Ubisoft and Blizzard Have started to fail gamers companies like Nintendo have started to fail gamers

And this is because they pursue the almighty dollar over the experience for gamers and so in the case of indies versus AAA's I Am going to side with the Indies. Yeah! What? Oh, man. Indie gaming has come so far.

The Expedition 33 as a perfect example of what an indie studio can do with passion and love and an appreciation for the gamer itself, I think, is making massive strides forward. Council, are you okay? You look like... I put my mortgage on this, man. What do you mean? Indies, come on! This is what you get for siding with the AAA corporate muckety-muck suits that just want profit over gameplay. Enjoy your Nintendo Switch 2.

Shame on you, Council. Council, you forgot to include your cash app. I'm on you, Council. I'm on you, Council. I'm on you, Council. I'm on you, Council. I'm on you, Council. Council, you forgot to include your cash app on that note there. Ace, you made some great arguments, and honestly, you're in passion plea about being on this journey with gamers in your closing statement. Here's my QR code. Is honestly the truth. I think we are seeing the rise of indie games.

I love it. I think that there is truth to be told that, you know, there's a thousand indie games that are made that are absolute garbage and nobody has ever heard of or played. And that's a shame, but it's just the nature of the business. If you go into this business and you say, hey, I want to make a video game. Not everybody's going to succeed in that case. And even if you make a great game, it's hard to get noticed. You know, as a, as a top gaming podcast, we still struggle with that challenge of saying,

how do we get more people to find our podcast? And so we sympathize with the indie developers in that case. I will say I think indie developers are your double A's if we're going to make like a baseball reference. And I think your triple A's are the big leagues, you know, and everybody wants to be in the big leagues. And I think that's fair for people. I just wish that as people see success in the industry, that they remember how they got there and they remember the gamer ultimately. And it's sad to me as a gamer to see that so many companies lose their way

in that pursuit of the profit versus everything else. For sure. So Ryan. Dude, this was hard, man. I gotta give you credit, Ryan. All jokes aside, you had an uphill battle on this one. I do think the AAA games absolutely serve a purpose, and they have higher highs for the most part

than indie games do as a whole. But man of indie games aren't coming a long way, man. They are. I just kept saying stuff, and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a good point. I can tell you were like, dang it, Ace. That's a really good point. I'm like, I'm going to argue this.

And Ryan, to your credit, you've been making a foray into indie gaming much, much more recently. Oh, yeah. And you're kind of discovering a lot of that. So this was, guys, this was a lot of fun. Kudos to you both, man. Ryan, you did have an uphill battle, because I think most gamers have a lot of love for indie

developers in indie games. But in all fairness, as a reminder to gamers, some of the best games out there, you know, are AAA titles, you know, and they give us that experience that we all crave and we all hope for, which is also why they take so much heat when they fail at the same time.

Because people want these awesome and amazing games and when they don't happen, gamers are very quick to be like, ha, I told you so. See, see? People will very quickly turn on a AAA game too they don't happen gamers are very quick to be like ha I told you so see see people will barely very quickly turn on a triple-a game too after a while like you they might it might come out and people like oh this is so great and then like a month later be like man that game was trash yeah like what happened to

that kid I thought you love that kid I will say the last thing before we get out of here guys is Indy ace you did make a point that you said hey battle passes and and Indy devs you don't need that stuff man they don't you know you don't know but but we're seeing more of it put into indie games where they're like hey we're trying to monetize this thing to you know we want to we want to make a living which I don't think anybody begrudges but if you just make a good game people will buy the game and we don't mind paying for games yeah but indie developers keep battle passes out of your games make them with passion

give us a good game and we will buy them and we will tell our friends about them at the same time so dare to care I dare to care baby dare to care also I'd like to expedition 33 for this victory the recent success of Expedition 33, this episode could have gone a lot different. A lot different. So, all right. Hey, kudos to both of you, man. It's fun being the judge, man.

I threw some tough questions at you guys there. So guys, we hope you enjoy these GameCourt episodes. They're just fun. They're meant to be topics that gamers like to argue over over and it just goes to show you that we are allowed to have different opinions on things you know Ryan loves indie games he's not here to just try to defend the triple A's but Ryan you know kudos for you for willing to take that challenge on also but guys it is okay to disagree as gamers it does not mean that you have to get upset with somebody

or slander somebody because they think differently than you. We all like different types of games, we all like different developers, we all like different styles of games and that's okay. It's what makes gaming awesome. So remember to respect each other in these differences of opinions. You know, thank your indie devs, thank your AAA studios when they make a banger of a game because everybody's just here to have a good time. So I'll get off my soapbox as the judge for this episode. That's gonna do it for this one.

Until next time everybody, happy gaming. If anyone needs a budget attorney, hit me up. I'm rebuttal Ryan. You can see me in the phone book. See ya! I've been your ace attorney. Peace out. Buttle Ryan, you can see me in the phone book. See ya! I've been your ace attorney. Peace out.

["The Ace Attorney Theme Song"]