Video Gamers Podcast - Game Court: Indie vs. AAA [Remastered] - Gaming Podcast

Episode Date: December 11, 2025

Gaming Hosts Ryan, Ace and Josh are back in court to argue another hot topic in gaming! Which are more important to the video game world - Indie games or AAA titles? On this episode of Game Court, Ace and Ryan go head to head to stand up for their cause and argue their cases to see which video game developers and games are most important. It’s a fun, zany video game packed episode from your favorite gaming podcast! Thanks to our MYTHIC supporters: Redletter, Disratory, Ol’ Jake, Gaius and Phelps Thanks to our Legendary Supporters: HypnoticPyro and Patrick Connect with the show: Support us on Patreon: patreon.com/videogamerspod Join our Gaming Community: https://discord.gg/Dsx2rgEEbz Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/videogamerspod/ Follow us on X: https://twitter.com/VideoGamersPod Subscribe to us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@VideoGamersPod?sub_confirmation=1 Visit us on the web: https://videogamerspod.com/ Follow us on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/videogamerspodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Canada's Wonderland is bringing the holiday magic this season with Winterfest on select nights now through January 3rd. Step into a winter wonderland filled with millions of dazzling lights, festive shows, rides, and holiday treats. Plus, Coca-Cola is back with Canada's kindest community, celebrating acts of kindness nationwide with a chance at 100,000 donation for the winning community and a 2026 holiday caravan stop. Learn more at canadaswunderland.com. Hello, fellow gamers, and welcome to the video gamers podcast. Indy Games versus AAA is one better than the other. From cutting-edge graphics and unbelievable highs, AAA gaming has given us some of the best games of all time. But Indies give us heart and passion, art and music, and sometimes hit way harder than we think.

Today we're taking this age-old debate to court and hearing the case of Indy versus AAA. But first, some introductions are in order. I am your judge, Josh. And joining me, he wasn't sure how he felt about defending AAA titles until I reminded him how much time he put into Desti. and Destiny 2, and then he remembered how much he loves live service games. It's Ryan. Wait, wait. Where the heck is Ryan, dude? Oh, hey, okay.

Oh, oh, oh, oh, shit. What? Oh, I'm sorry, I'm here, Your Honor. I'm sorry, did you, are we good? Did I miss anything? Yeah, where have you been? I, how's your security here? Are you good, pretty good?

Yeah. Yeah, we're, yeah, this is a, this is a legal court. I understand, Your Honor. I apologize. I was delayed. For court? This is important. What the hell?

I plead with you, Your Honor, please. Okay. Well, you catch your breath while I, uh, introduced this other gentleman that wasn't late. I apologize. And joining us. He's, he's the man that's never met an indie he didn't love. Well, at least he's good at faking it.

It's a. Listen, Your Honor, I would like to call for a mistrial as my opponent here was late. Yeah. Oh, he was late. You know, that will be taken into consideration, counsel, don't you worry. Do you guys have a pen? Does anyone have a? No.

Oh, what? Oh, no, I got one. I got, okay. Hey, did you guys know if the Yankees won last day? The Yankees? That's baseball. Yeah, no, they did. Never mind.

Never mind. Don't worry about it. It's so fuck. That was going. Something's going on here. All right, you know what? I'm the judge today. I demand order in this court.

While I welcome everybody in, welcome the game court, everybody. We're back. This is going to be a blast. Look, our first game court was a lot of fun. We love these debates that gamers have. And man, we have a debate for the ages with, you know, indie expert ace here to defend all things indie.

Ryan looking like he's afraid. of something is you keep looking over your shoulder i'm here so somebody money is that no no no okay i i no no no okay are you prepared for this yes yes um i i i i your honor i was uh not in the vicinity of uh rigley park from two to four last night uh last saturday you don't need an alibi for this this is oh that yeah is are you in the wrong court oh no this is i got it i got court sir Game court. Yes. Yes. Game court. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. Just make it. Okay. It's so stupid.

Oh, man. All right. Listen, welcome in, everybody. I, we're going to argue. For those that missed the first game court episode, we're back. The goal of this is to argue things that gamers argue about. I get to be today's judge, and I am not going to be a kind judge. I can tell you that. I will say this, as the judge, I am actually 100% impartial to this argument. So I am going to actually judge based on who makes the best arguments in this case. I love indie games. I love AAA games.

I'm going to pose some questions to you guys. I ain't making your lives easy on this one either. For those listening, Ace is going to be defending tripp or I'm sorry, indie gaming. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, minute, I wasn't ready. I was not ready for that switch up. hold yeah so so ace is going to be defending indie games ryan is going to be defending triple a games the the argument here is is one better than the other um as far as you know you know gamers are concerned or the gaming industry is concerned i can see this going both ways in all honesty

so we also may allow the listeners to vote on a punishment for the loser of this episode episode as well. So we hope you stick with us till the end because there may be a punishment on the line on this one also. So all right, let's, you boys ready to get into this, Ryan, you look like you're settled down now. Yes, yes, sir. You're in the right place. Yes, I'm here. Ace is like, bro, I don't, I've never done this before. I don't know how I feel about arguing with somebody. I'm the least argument of us all, I think. Right. Oh, that's, yes, that is very true. So, all right, well, I'll tell you what, man, you guys, Ace, why don't you start us off. Why don't you give your kind of opening statement on why you think that indies are better than

AAA games? All right. Your honor, esteemed members of the jury, today I stand before you not merely as a defender of our pixelated dreams, our crowdfunded hopes, but as a lover of the freedom of creativity and artistic integrity in the gaming innovation world. I stand in defense of indie games, the underdogs of the passion projects, the soul of our new industry. And I contend that in many ways, they are far superior to AAA games. Starting off, of course, with Exhibit A, Creative Freedom versus the Corporate Formula of Gaming. AAA titles are built on the investment of the people who want to see them succeed, not on the love they have for the gaming world and the games they create.

What say you to this, Ryan? Ryan? your opening argument good sir well ladies and gentlemen of the jury thank you for having me here today sorry for my abrupt entrance and I apologize

again for being late it's Ryan we're used to it that's pretty good you're breaking character this ain't the first time Ryan's been late to recording homie I'm going to be late to my funeral. Oh, I, sorry. Okay, okay. I'm sorry. I had to. It was just right there. It was teed up,

and I couldn't not swing at it, man. Okay, go ahead. Sorry, back to your opening statement. Well, ladies and gentlemen, wouldn't it be nice to live in a land of sunshine, fairies, and rainbows? I, for one, would absolutely enjoy such an experience, but we don't. We live in the real world where pride, passion, and excitement does not make a good game, does not make quality graphics and does not make my eyes stop from bleeding ladies and gentlemen triple a games are where they are because they are that they are triple a they are quality they are graphically visually a masterpiece in most cases so i would like you today to consider not just if but why triple a games are better than indies all right strong arguments you too so this you guys have

presented the arguments the case in front of us is our indie games better than triple a games all right i'll hear arguments uh who wants to go first i will allow my opponent the first rights okay so ryan you're up man argue your case as to why triple a is better i think we're going to first start with just overall quality of the game visually and gameplay uh triple a's tend to offer the ability to have a substantial budget difference from our indie counterparts there, allowing them to develop some of the most innovative and beautiful things we have ever seen in all of gaming. This is one area that indie games just no matter what cannot touch. A broken clock is right twice a day. You'll get those gems with indie games. I'm not going to

take away from them. But AAA games are far superior. so they're far superior because they're graphically better that oh one among many other reasons oh okay well triple a titles are built on investment risks within their management they're focus tested and equally and equally greenlit by their sequels by spreadsheets as a result we get annual franchises that get more and more crappy every year you don't get that with indie games indie games you get a hit because that was the one sole project a team worked on that they truly cared about

and they wanted to put a good game out in the world. So I'm going to have to interject something here. I have a question for you on your case and something that you just said. You said that indie games are good. And how do you explain the plethora

of terrible indie games that exist in the world? Well, those aren't the ones that succeed now, are they? You've got to have a few swing and a misses out there. AAA titles still make money when they make bad games and we continue to feed that spirit of making bad games because we

keep paying for them. We vote with our wallets and we vote wrong a lot of the time. Fair. Fair? Okay. Objection. For what? I didn't like what he said. Okay. Overruled.

Ryan, you've got to win this one. Okay. Okay. All right. Indie games by contrast, however, are free from the shackles of these budgets and these time crunches. So you end up with a usually finished and perfect product that you'll remember for ages, honestly. And they're timeless because the graphics are not always trying to keep up with what is the most realistic. I would like to say, Your Honor, that I feel they are timeless because they are stuck in time.

They are stuck in 1992, and I'll call back to my eyes bleed. Oh. Hollow Night makes your eyes bleed. Do you have an example of a recent game, maybe? You know, the name escapes me. I believe it was called Mina the Hollow. Oh, was my prior experience. Oh, I will not stand for that game to be named in this court. I apologize, Your Honor. That game isn't even out yet, Your Honor. You can't possibly put that into this deliberation. It may never come out, and then it wouldn't be admissible evidence. Here's the deal. AAA games and we are talking basically based on visuals at this moment there just cannot be a scale that indie games can match

the budget is not there sure you like I said you get those ones that come every once in a while but AAA games graphically over the whole are far superior and that is the first of many notches in AAA category counsel what do you have to say about the move of triple a gaming towards the live service model which most gamers would consider to be a detriment to gaming at this point how do you reconcile that with gamers oh well your honor i would say that change sometimes is uncomfortable well-be-it for the betterment of the community at large more money for developers equals better games better advancements better updates and ultimately a better experience. Therefore, well, people may not like it. It is not changing, so you better buckle up and get used to it. So you're saying that live service games lead to the greater good when it comes to gaming? Absolutely. Okay. Opposing counsel, what's your take on that? My take on live service gaming being something we just have to accept and move on with. It comes back to voting

with your wallets and learning that maybe you shouldn't keep encouraging these behaviors and allowing companies to get away with, you know, throwing up a live service game that's up for like five years, they got all your money and now it's gone. Now you're out of it. What do you have? You have nothing. No cosmetics. No game. No friends. No friends. Let me ask you a question, indie council. Name three of the best games ever made. Three of the best games ever made? Yes, if you would humor me. If I would humor you for three of the best games ever made. I suppose, you want me to say Red Dead Redemption 2.

That would be considered widely one of the best games ever made. I would say Hollow Night is high up there with one of the best games ever made. A little bit of bias. Quite considerably so. Especially somebody that loves Metroidvania's and it has actually said

that they think that there's better Metroidvanias out there. That doesn't mean it isn't the best one everyone else thinks was never made. Let me just be direct with you on this one. Some of the best games ever made, Red Dead Red Dead Redemption 2, God of War,

cyberpunk, Eldon Ring. These are all AAA Studios. So how do you make the defense for indie games when some of the most beloved games in the world

come from AAA Studios? That's a great question. But those AAA studios started with these characters so there's already nostalgia for a lot of them. And some of them have already built Goodwill, CD Project Red,

and expended it upon release as well by releasing broken games. You don't get that from indie games. Any game developers will spend meticulous amounts of time Making sure every little piece of their game is finished Before releasing it to public Even going so far as to releasing it in early access Which kills a lot of them, I know, because they hate it

But it gets all the bugs sorted out before the full release Thus giving you a full complete product That you don't get in every AAA game Give me two more days Just two more days Okay I gotta go on in court Council, is there an issue? No, I'm sorry

Sorry, sorry, my mom's sick. Were you? I heard mention of owing money. No, no, no, no, no. Anyways, games, AAA games, Your Honor. Yes, thanks for rejoining us here. Ace just made mention that, you know, indie games are made with passion.

They're often complete games without the bugs that gamers have been told to get used to, but refuse to get used to, day one patches, stuttering, crashing, that sort of thing. which is more prevalent in the AAA universe. So what do you have to say about that? Well, you know, when you're managing five or six pixels on a screen, you know, it's not too hard to navigate around that.

These AAA games are immense. They are terabytes of code that they have to go through. I, quite frankly, am surprised it's not even worse on launch days with how much they have to manage. Counsel, I'm going to have to remind you. I know you keep pandering to me about poor graphics, but let me remind you of a recent release of a game called Expedition 33, which has proven to be one of the most successful indie releases in quite some time,

is an easy front-runner candidate for Game of the Year, which was made by an indie studio. How do you reconcile that with the AAA Studios not being able to provide that quality of game with three times the amount of developers? Well, I would say How often does that happen? You call this game so amazing

One of the largest indie releases Because it is so rare Games like this that launch this way That look this good and play that well I will give it to Expedition 33 It is a fine fine game for what it is These games don't happen often He would dare say for what it is

To Expedition 33, the game that redefines The Turn-Based genre sustained good point counsel redefines for who good sir people who enjoy turn base gaming therefore it is a niche audience

which is why Final Fantasy is niche oh well Final Fantasy is a AAA studio yes but that is a turn base game that would mean they feed to the turn base genre of gamers

basically y'all games are ugly. Oh, I see how it is. Let's talk about some of the games that aren't ugly, specifically Exposition 33 and Lies of P. Both are absolutely stunning graphically and match up to any AAA studio's work. Two games? You got two games? Yeah, go ahead. What else you got?

Your Honor, I'd like to request three more games to make a nice five. That's a fair request. Can you name three other indie games that are considered beautiful? Hollow Night for one. Hollenite is beautifully hand-drawn. Ultros has a stunning art style that you will find nowhere else. It's like he just did an episode on indie art. It's almost like I did an episode on indie artwork, huh?

And as a little biased to myself, Ender Lillies and Indermagnolia have stunning art and visuals that evolved throughout its evolution as a sequel as well. They were hand-drawn, beautifully done by individuals of an indie studio. not. I'd like to hear the argument from both of you in regards to gameplay when it comes to games because let's be honest as gamers, if you don't have gameplay, you only have an experience

and we can get that at the movie theater. So I would like for both of you to address how gameplay matters in each of your prospective clients. I mean, gameplay defines how much you enjoy a game, but it's built around the other elements as well as like good music, good sound design, good characters, good writing. You give most of that from indie games specifically like let me think here Holo Night. We're going back to Holo Night. It has

a fantastic gameplay, character design, and mechanics that took a genre that AAA Studios wouldn't touch for the longest time, the Metroidvania genre. And it brought it back into the limelight to where now we're seeing Metroidvania's every other year from people. Some truly impressive and

truly evolve upon the genre itself. What is it? Ryan? What do you always hear every indie bro say? All the Assassin's Creed's are the same. All the colors are the same. You got to hear the music. The music. You got to listen to the music. Man, this got this killer soundtrack. This one's got a banger of music. That's because their gameplay sucks. How dare you say. Their gameplay sucks. That's why. All over to the music.

You dare say such slender's words. Game card. Bob and Jim ran out of coffee yesterday, and they're the ones that are designing all that, and they can't get to it because they're too busy listening to music. Yeah. Sorry, bud. Truth hurts. If gameplay of indie games sucks so much, why do you enjoy Risk of Rain 2 so much?

Ooh. Because there's not standout music in Risk of Rain 2. It is solely the gameplay. Because I like to punish myself. Why don't you got to tell the whole world, okay? Do you have a counter? example of a AAA title there Ryan? A triple A title that

has beautiful music or stands up to the indie level of music or sound? Oh man. God War 2018. That's pretty good. That's pretty amazing music. As well as Ragnarok. I prefer the soundtrack from Roundtrap. Blood upon the snow.

Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury and listeners aka that's you guys. Check that song out if you haven't. It's really good. I will agree All right, back to court Back to court You're like, no, I disagree

I disagree greatly So which category would you say Has better gameplay elements to it? I think your honor It is clear And open for any One to see

Triple A titles have the superior gameplay The The ability to create A polished experience Albeit there are updates, there are first-A

patches. You know, nobody's perfect. The experience as a whole is far superior with AAA games. They just are able to produce a better product. I don't know. I think the Witcher's gameplay sucks, so. Oh, ow. Oh, bailiff. Remove this man

from my courtroom right now. That means a mistrial, right? You know, not like exceeding Project Red and rock stars. of this trial. Are you trying to anger the judge, Ace?

What is going on here, man? You are non-biased, sir. Yeah, you are non-biased. That's true. I'm non-biased. You're right. Okay, I would like to talk about, I would like you guys to address something. This is a concern that comes up a lot of times is that for every publicized failure of a triple A title. And boy, do we see them lately.

I mean, there are a myriad of failures that make, Mind's eye is the most recent where, Was that AAA though? Are they a AAA studio? I'm pretty sure it was, yeah. Because it was in the PlayStation. Well, we won't verify that because we don't have time for that right now. But, you know, so for every publicized failure of a AAA title, there are a thousand indie titles that nobody ever even hears about or discovers, you know.

And so the thought process behind that for a lot of gamers is that any schlub that knows a modicum of programming can make an indie game. whereas to truly make a AAA title, you have to have a lot of knowledge. You have to have a large team. You have to have talent that goes behind that. So I would like both of you to address that thought process and whether it's right or wrong. Well, we've seen masterpieces made by small groups of people,

Expedition 33, for example, 30 people made that game. That's insane. I think you do need talent to make a good game, but that's for any kind of anywhere you work. AAA indie doesn't matter. However, AAA Studios can get away with putting out a bad game because they didn't get, you know, enough of a budget to pay for it and put forward into it.

And maybe there wasn't someone who's super close on the project who cared enough about it to make sure it was a polished experience and an enjoyable game for people. All right, if you're like me and you love Rocket League, then this message is for you. Let me introduce you to Trophy AI. Trophy AI is a tool that gives you real, time feedback while you play Rocket League that will adapt to your play styles. It is not just

generic tips. It's got a huge library of mechanic lessons and training packs with live demos from pro players so that you can watch and learn instantly. It's got mini games to help you train and master those difficult mechanics in a fun and engaging way. Plus, it's got in-game overlays that call out mistakes instantly so that you can correct them while you play. It also has personalized match analysis so you get to see exactly what you did right and wrong after every match stop wasting time guessing or grinding learn smarter get that confidence boost you need to move up to the next rank you'll understand why you miss that crucial save or why you lost that kickoff and it will teach you how to fix it and right now you can get a free seven day trial that's right

a free trial to test out Trophy AI. There is zero downside to this and you will see progress in just one week. Head on over to Trophy.aI and enter code VGP at checkout to get that free trial started. Again, that is TROP-H-I.A-I to up your game. Ryan? Oh, your honor. my client Clarissa never ever

took those things from Walmart she was not in that area at the time she was actually at her job was her job at Walmart I think you have your notes messed up again council I'm sorry game court that's right

um uh yeah can you give me the question again sir sorry what do you have to say about the failure of AAA title titles being publicized compared to any titles that go unnoticed. Yeah, okay.

Your Honor. So, equally so, as when I said, it happens so few that the indie games, again, my opponent here mentions Expedition 33. I'm sure they do that a lot because there's so few in the well. With AAA titles, these issues happen and these launches are not done well, not done right, a lot of issues to happen when that happens you hear about because it happens so so you know there's not a lot i have man i'm stumbling all over myself man i got give me one second honor yes i got the money okay all right okay that's cleared up sorry uh okay triple a's are better they got better

budgets better everything that's the bottom line so they're better because they have a bigger budget is that that's your your budget better people better ability to hire better music better graphics what do you want triple a council what do you say to the gamer take that triple a studios are run by suits that don't know anything about gaming and only care about profit margins and actually help to contribute to the death of quality games i would say that those are uh your indie fanboys that have, you know, not really looked at the top games in the last decade. As you mentioned prior, we have CD Project Red. We have a lot of these large developers that create some of the most amazing

involved masterpieces you could ever hope to play as a video game consumer. This is what you look for. This is what you hope to have. When you see indie games, you may think they're neat. Oh, that's cool for an indie. triple A titles will always be at the top. You know, there's one AAA title that I feel like you're leaving out here. And a studio as well.

Like for every rock star and CD Project Red, you have your Ubisofts and your EAs. The ones who just... Assassin's creeds are horrible. We don't mention those names in this courtroom. Okay. All right. Indy Council. another take the gamers have addressed with indie games

is that every indie studio wishes that they were a AAA studio. If you make a game, we'll take Expedition 33 as a recent example. It is almost guaranteed that some huge publisher will attempt to buy out the studio that made Expedition 33, and then they become what they hate, which is a AAA studio. And most studios will absolutely take this offer because they're doing this to make money to provide for their family, what do you have to say about the the thinking that every indie studio wishes they could be a triple a studio i

think that's just a assumption because we do have a indie studio that is not a triple a studio and they won game of the year larion studios created balder's gate three they did not sell out after they finished balder's gate three because they have a vision with that game they wanted it finished they wanted everything they wanted in that game and then they moved on they didn't let someone buy them out that does seem to be larian studios does seem to be the exception to that rule but i'd like you to address that most the people behind hollow night currently working on silk song silk song is they are and yeah they're there there were what's this game what is this game you speak up oh boy i would like that struck please your honor objection silk song does not exist

now hold on buddy boy we we got images with release states uh your honor my My opponent here is coming up with these frivolous games that don't exist and only are fairy tales. I would like all of that struck from the record, please. Fair point, counsel. Silk Song does not exist that we know of. So I'm going to ask the court reporter, can you please strike that from the record? Yes. Okay, great.

Thank you, Your Honor. A lot of indie studios, though, remain independent as both the developer and the publisher. Take, for example, Yacht Club Games. Yacht Club Games is the... What games did they make? They make the Shovel Night Games. every all like four of them. Any other games that they're currently making? Hold on. They've only done that. Your honor. Your honor, they've only been making it for like two days.

So give them a break. Oh man. You walked right into that one. Oh my gosh. Okay. That was that was amazing. I couldn't resist once again. Okay, go, go, Yacht Club games. We love Yacht Club. Dang. You're the Hollower. We really do love you, Yacht Club games. I'm sorry that we're picking on Meena the Hollowers so much, but you guys are awesome.

Okay, so Yacht Club games, you were using it as an example. Yes, they are another example of a developer that has been producing their own games and now also, gosh, darn it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. oh okay guys do you ever just listen to our podcast and go like man we're so stupid sometimes i don't have to listen to it to think that oh my goodness okay all right uh you know we got to get to closing statements here so let's let's do this i'll be honest i'm still on the fence i legitimately don't know who to side with uh on this one so ryan ace gave the first opening

statement why don't you give your closing statement as to why don't you give your closing statement as to why AAA games are the most important to the gaming industry. All righty. So I'm going to cut right to the chase here. Indie games have their place. I will not take away from what they are and what they've created in the gaming space that we all love. Having said that, AAA titles will always be at the top. They give you a bigger world, better AI, multiplayer interactions that are typically top-notch.

And the constant continuous development of quality as a whole over indie games. That's why AAA titles will always and are the best. All right. Your Honor, in a world of battle passes, live service fatigue, and cinematic trailers with no gameplay that overpromise and under-deliver, indie games dare to care about the player. They take risks where AAA games won't. they tell the stories triple a games won't they treat the players not as wallets but as fellow

adventurers in their games so i ask you and the members of the jury when you strip away the marketing the motion capture the million dollar explosions which games truly make you feel tell me which games truly make you feel something oh that was a good closing argument i was angry when i paid 40 bucks for midnight walk and i tell you one thing I didn't say. I'm glad they dared to care. Oh, man. That was still their vision, their artistic vision and what they wanted,

and we're in the minority, all right? Everyone else loves that game. Yeah, that's, that is fair. All right, I mean, I'll be honest, you guys both made good arguments. I, I will say, yes, you guys did, you guys both made good arguments.

I will say, in all transparency, because I want to be a fair and impartial judge, unlike Ryan, who had his mind made up before the episode even started. I do tend to lean AAA titles. I think that they push the envelope of gaming. I think that they are responsible for advancing gaming, the technology, the experiences.

If you look at my top five games of all time, they're all AAA titles. It is very hard to get that experience from an indie game. However, I think we're seeing a shift. I think we're seeing fatigue for the AAA title. The companies that shall not be named like EA and Ubisoft and Blizzard have started to fail gamers. Companies like Nintendo have started to fail gamers. And this is because they pursue the almighty dollar over the experience for gamers.

And so in the case of Indies versus AAAs, I am going to side with the Indies. What? Oh, man. Indie gaming has come so far. The Expedition 33 as a perfect example of what an indie studio can do with passion and love and an appreciation for the gamer itself

I think is making massive strides forward. Counselor, are you okay? You look like... I put my mortgage on this, man. What do you mean? Indies, come on. This is what you get for citing with the AAA corporate...

muckety-muck suits that just want profit over gameplay. Enjoy your Nintendo Switch, too. Counsel, you forgot to include your cash app on that note there. Ace, you made some great arguments, and honestly, you're impassioned plea about being on this journey with gamers in your closing statement. There's my QR code. is honestly the truth. I think we are seeing the rise of indie games.

I love it. I think that there is truth to be told that, you know, there's a thousand indie games that are made that are absolute garbage and nobody has ever heard of or played. And that's a shame. But it's just the nature of the business. If you go into this business and you say, hey, I want to make a video game,

not everybody's going to succeed in that case. And even if you make a great game, it's hard to get noticed. without the budget as a as a top gaming podcast we still struggle with that challenge of saying how do we get more people to find our podcast and so we sympathize with the indie developers in that case i will say i think indie developers are your double a's if we're going to make like a baseball reference and i think your triple as are the big leagues you know and everybody wants to be in the big leagues um and i think that's fair for people i just wish that as people see success in the industry that they remember how they got there and they remember the gamer ultimately. And it's sad to me as a gamer to see that so many companies lose their way in that pursuit of the profit versus everything else. For sure. So Ryan, dude, this was hard, man. I got to give you credit, Ryan. All jokes aside, you had an uphill battle on this one. I do think

the AAA games absolutely serve a purpose and they have higher highs for the most part. indie games do as a whole, but man of indie games aren't coming a long way, man. I just kept saying stuff and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a good point. I can tell you were like, dang it is. That's a really good point. I'm like, I'm going to argue this. And Ryan's, and Ryan, to your credit, you've been making a foray into indie gaming much, much more recently and you're kind of discovering a lot of that. So this was, guys, this was a lot of fun. Kudos to you both, man. Ryan, you did have an uphill battle because I think most gamers have a lot of love for indie developers and indie games.

But, you know, in all fairness, as a reminder to gamers, some of the best games out there, you know, are AAA titles, you know, and they give us that experience that we all crave and we all hope for, which is also why they take so much heat when they fail at the same time. Because people want these awesome and amazing games, and when they don't happen, gamers are very quick to be like, ha, I told you so. see see people will very very quickly turn on a triple a game too after a while like it might come out and people like oh this is so great and then like a month later be like man that game was trash yeah like what happened to that get i thought you loved that game

i will say the last thing before we get out of here guys is indie ace you did make a point that you said hey battle passes and and indie devs you don't need that stuff man they don't you know you don't but but we're seeing more of it put into indie games where they're like hey we're trying to monetize this thing to you know we want to we want to make a living which i don't think anybody begrudges but if you just make a good game people will buy the game and we don't mind paying for games yeah but indie developers keep battle passes out of your games make them with passion give us a good game and we will buy them and we will tell our friends about them at the same time so dare to care i dare to care baby dare to care also i'd like to thank expedition 33 for this

victory um bro i'll be honest it was not for the recent success of expedition 33 uh this this episode could have gone a lot different a lot different so all right hey kudos to both you man it's fun being the judge man it's fun i threw some tough questions at you guys there so um guys we hope you enjoy these game court episodes they're just fun they're meant to be they're meant to be topics the gamers like to argue over and it just goes to show you that we are allowed to have different opinions on things. You know, Ryan loves indie games. He's not here to just try to defend the AAAs, but Ryan, you know, kudos for you for

willing to take that challenge on also. But guys, it is okay to disagree as gamers. It does not mean that you have to get upset with somebody or slander somebody because they think differently than you. We all like different types of games. We all like different developers. We all like different styles of games. And that's okay.

It's what makes gaming awesome. So remember to respect. each other in these differences of opinions. You know, thank your indie devs. Thank your AAA studios when they make a banger of a game because everybody's just here to have a good time. So I'll get off my soapbox as the judge for this episode. That's going to do it for this one.

Until next time, everybody. Happy gaming. If anyone needs a budget attorney, hit me up. I'm a rebuttal Ryan. You can see me in the phone book. See ya. I've been your ace attorney. Peace out.

Thank you.