Video Gamers Podcast - Gaming Scholarships & the Future of Esports in Schools – Gaming Podcast

Episode Date: July 18, 2025

Gaming host John sits down with Sekou and Ryan from Eval, a Princeton-backed startup on a mission to create meaningful opportunities for high school gamers. Join us for a thought-provoking episode as we explore the future of esports video games in education, how Eval connects students with real college scholarships, and what tools they’re building for the next generation of video game players. We also dig into personal stories from the gaming community, the rise of AI in competitive gaming, and whether technology is moving faster than the industry can keep up. All the gaming news and conversations you need, each and every week from the Video Gamers Podcast! FOLLOW EVAL: Web: https://evalgaming.com/ Insta: https://www.instagram.com/evalgames/   Thanks to our MYTHIC Supporters: Redletter, Disratory, Ol’ Jake, Gaius, and Phelps   Thanks to our Legendary Supporters: HypnoticPyro, Patrick, Jigglepuf and PeopleWonder   Connect with the show: Support us on Patreon: patreon.com/videogamerspod Join our Gaming Community: https://discord.com/invite/Dsx2rgEEbz Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/videogamerspod/  Follow us on X: https://twitter.com/VideoGamersPod  Subscribe to us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@VideoGamersPod?sub_confirmation=1    Visit us on the web:https://videogamerspod.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Hello, fellow gamers, and welcome to the Video Gamers Podcast. Today we're diving into the intersection of eSports, education, and emerging tech. Can high school gamers actually get college scholarships for their gaming skills? And what happens when AI starts to outperform even the best human players? We'll be covering these topics today, but first some introductions are in order. I am your host John and Joining me are guests from eval a Princeton based startup trying to change the way we think about gaming and education Sekou and Ryan welcome to the show Thank you having us great

Yeah, of course, uh, so the weather is kind of humid there in Jersey today, huh? Yeah, it's definitely not ideal. I got to ask you guys right out of the gate. Is esports being sort of positioned as the next like legitimate college sport at this point or explain this concept to me? Yeah. So right now, especially after COVID, eSports has been gaining a lot of popularity and students, teenagers are one of the main demographics that really are invested in eSports.

And as a result, a lot of high schools and colleges are investing in these sorts of programs. So not only do they have teams, but you also have them investing in a lot of high schools and colleges are investing in these sorts of programs. So not only do they have teams, but you also have them investing in a lot of the infrastructure. You have paid eSports coaches, eSports management. You have paid eSports recruiters, and there's a whole ecosystem developing around Scholastic eSports. And I would say that it's very well in order to be the next collegiate level sport. I can't believe that I, as a lifelong nerd and gamer,

am living in a world where collegiate and e-sports can exist in the same sentence. This is crazy to me. I have to note, so you guys are both students at Princeton University, is that correct? Correct. Yep. And the university is backing this organization, EVAL, which is essentially an eSports recruiting

platform, is that correct? Yeah. So they actually provide us funding through the Keller Center program throughout the summer during the school year to continue to build our company and support eSports as well. That's amazing. Are either you guys previous entrepreneurs or how did you get started doing this? Yeah for sure. I think I can probably speak a little bit better to kind of how we started eval and I think Ryan can kind of talk a little bit more about his involvement in eSports. So me, I'm a traditional athlete actually here at Princeton. I play

football here and I am not from the competitive eSports. So me, I'm a traditional athlete actually here at Princeton. I play football here. And I am not from the competitive eSports world at all. I play football, I run into people. I'm not one to hold a controller, but I do have a little bit of a, I'm a little bit of a closeted gamer. I will say that. I played a big siege guy and I also played Hearthstone.

So like, those are like my little secrets. Hearthstone, no kidding, that's awesome. I try to keep to myself, see I didn't wanna say, people like, I'll be in the locker room sometimes, I'll have my phone now and I'll be like, playing with these cards and they'll be like, what's that on your phone? I'm like, oh no, no, nothing.

Madden, it's Madden. It's a training card, I swear it is, I swear to God. Oh my God, I thought it was a dragon, no. It's not a dragon, it was Eli Manning. So no, no, I have a little bit of a past. But in terms of like actual experience in eSports and competitive space, zero. The way that I got introduced was actually to my younger brother. He was a top 400 player for For Honor. And he actually didn't go end up going to college and not to say colleges for everybody. But as any older brother, you try

to send them the same path as yourself. And I'm someone who ended up going through college through what I was passionate about. And I was curious about how I could assist my brother in that journey. And I looked into gaming and if there's any opportunities through that to reach higher education, and it turns out there were actually scholarships for it. And there was people looking for people like my brother.

And he did not know about that. And I think that if he had been aware about those opportunities and they had been made more readily available, he would have took advantage of them. And I think that if he had been aware about those opportunities and they had been made more readily available, he would have took advantage of them. And I think that's kind of the biggest reason why we created EVAL initially. And we've kind of delved in and found more people who are passionate about what we're doing, including Ryan. And I think he'll speak more to that. Yeah, unlike Seku, I am a loud and proud gamer.

I've been an athlete for several years. I competed throughout high school. I started up my high school e-sports program when e-sports was just getting into fashion at the high school level. Uh, we competed in quite a few different high school leagues. It was pretty tumultuous because the space was rapidly developing, but something I'm really proud of was being able to grow my high school program from a club of 20 people to an official varsity level sport at my school.

And that's something that's not just happening at my school, but at several schools around the country. And esports means a lot to me. Esports is a really big part of who I am and how I got to where I am today. And that's why I work on Eval. I'm not necessarily someone with the most business experience, but I'm someone who has both the technical background and the passion to build a platform like we are to help these esports students get their

opportunities. Well like all good partnerships they are built on a foundation of complementary skill sets so it sounds like what you guys have going it fits you know it's like a human jigsaw puzzle. Can you remind me again what your specific roles are within this company? Yeah, for sure. So I'm CEO and founder. I kind of help with like operations and kind of guiding the vision.

But in terms of even Ryan, we have a whole other team that's not able to join us here today. And I'd love to shout them out. So shout out to Ibrahim and Erica who couldn't make it to the podcast. Nice. Nice. And Ryan, sorry.

Your role. Ryan, sorry. Your role. Yeah, I'm the COO, but I also oversee a lot of the strategy. I'm pretty involved in the e-sports scene. I've worked with a few e-sports companies before, so I'm just helping Eval navigate the landscape and make something that the players want. So speaking candidly off the cuff,

I am somebody who, you know, I've been playing, I'm 43, I've been playing games since, you know, I was five or something on Atari, like way, way, way back when it was like literally just a couple of pixels and a little paddle, like bouncing a ball back and forth on the screen. Very, very, very low tech. We have somebody in our Discord named T-Fulls who has a really good question about this.

So number one, is this program that you guys are developing something that any college, like are you planning to scale this amongst like lots of colleges? Is this independent of the specific school? And what really is the spectator demand for esports right now? Yeah, I can take that. So what we're building with eval is definitely something that is built for scale.

At our core, we are recruiting database, which means we can accommodate as many colleges as want to be on our platform so they can find the best content. So in terms of recruiting players, as many colleges as would like can join our platform. As for spectator demand, this is something that has been getting huge in recent years. It's in the millions for professional e-sports as you probably know, with games like League of Legends, they just had the e-sports World Cup recently. League was getting record breaking amounts of views

in like the tens of millions. And other titles, while not quite up there with League, have like a cult following almost. Rocket League is what I play, and they are getting a lot of views, their World Championships are coming up and they sell arenas for this. Like not only just watching it on Twitch but even going in person just to get the whole experience. There's a lot of demand there and Collegiate Esports is definitely not at

the same scale as the pro level but it's quickly getting there because there's a lot more investment in not only seeing the pro players, like who are the best at what they do, also seeing college students, someone who a lot of the player base and teenagers can relate to. That's something that's getting a much bigger following as well.

I have to ask, so Sekou, you could probably resonate with this quite a bit, but with physical athletic sports, there is sort of an inherent barrier of entry where it's like physically hard and there's the risk of injury and there's a risk of like, you know, embarrassment in front of large crowds of people. And I feel like just because of the nature of esports where you, you know, it is something that more people have convenient access to because like, you don't have to like be on a field

with like tons of people. Like you can, like, you can do this wherever you have a computer, you can do this where oftentimes wherever you have a phone, there's no risk of like physical injury. How, how do you guys end up sorting through, or I should say back this up for a second, if what your platform is is sort of being able to like

isolate and identify the top talent that may be eligible for like scholastic support scholarships and that kind of thing, what is your filtration process look like? Like how are you evaluating players based on their potential? And, you know, I'm assuming there's like an economic side to this as well. I'd like to hear what that recruiting process looks like. Yeah, for sure. So again, in addition to being the CEO, I bring over the traditional sport

frameworks. So I understand what recruiting looks like in traditional sports and how there are systems out there that already exist. Like Like I'm not sure if you're familiar with platforms like rivals or 24-7 or PFF which perform like provide analytics and information on players performances for both the consumers the fans as well as the coaches and the issue and The problem with eSports right now is that there is actually an overwhelming amount of data out there about these players But no one's actually taking the time to make it more digestible for both fans, parents and players themselves. And what we're doing is taking all of this information that's being poured out

of these games through APIs and condensing it down into a composite score and stars in the same way that the new position was. So that's kind of the way that we've approached it in terms of turning it back to traditional sports and rather than approaching it in this kind of, I don't know, how other people have done it previously in the past. So with regards to your recruiting process, would you say that the talent, if you want to call it that, the talent that you're looking for, are you primarily judging people based on sort of merit, like their actual performance scores? Or is there kind of room for an X factor sort of thing like the

The clearest example I can give is like Conor McGregor in mixed martial arts You know, he he is a he is a clearly a world-class striker But his greatest strength and his greatest asset to the UFC is that he is a personality and he draws a crowd which creates revenue and ultimately like I've said this a few times on the show, but profit isn't the purpose of business just like blood isn't the purpose of life, but profit is a requirement for business just like blood is a requirement for life. I imagine that your top performer isn't necessarily going to be the person who draws the most eyeballs and I'm imagining that you have to have some variance in your evaluation process for like the X factor Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot more to a player than just the raw performance

You're absolutely right in that and there are a few key things that we look out for Some are these kind of intangibles that you really want out of a player that you can't exactly quantify out of a game, but you can get pretty close. Things like clutch, right? If you can ice up in the toughest situations. The difference between scholastic esports and just playing your ranked games is that ranked you can be like sitting on your couch and just playing, where if you're on a scholastic stage you're playing in front of a ton of people, you're up on where if you're on a scholastic stage, you're playing in front of a

ton of people, you're up on stage, you're on a setup that isn't your own, and being able to clutch up in those situations, having ice in your veins and being able to really matters, right? Those are things that a lot of college programs look for. So definitely on that end, there are a lot of these intangibles. There are also things like being a personality. That's something that a lot of programs look for as well because profitability is, I would say, one of the main drivers of the esports industry right now. Sure, sure, any industry, absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. I think esports is especially because esports is a way that a lot of companies can get to the younger generation. I think for a lot of companies, one example is Verizon. They've sponsored a lot of companies can get to the younger generation. I think for a lot of companies, one example is Verizon. They've sponsored a lot of rock league events and it would seem like what would kids want out of Verizon? But then you can see all the possibilities with the fast internet.

You can go home, you can ask your mom, I need the best internet to compete like the pros. So you end up with things like that where a lot of these companies, uh, sponsor things in e-sports and for that to be successful personalities are what, uh, both like professional orgs and scholastic teams look for, like, uh, people who can create content, who can really be the face of a school both to make money, but on,

but also to build reputation. E-sports is really helpful for helping a school make a name for itself, because there are a lot of schools out there, like Maryville, that's a pretty big program in esports, and outside of it, their name isn't exactly prevalent. Like, esports allows these schools to really build a name for themselves. So, you want all that out of a player,

on top of being a top performer. So, go ahead. Take you. I was just going to say, I think even to touch on what Ryan said, one of the things that traditional sports has provided for players like myself is a platform to build their own personal brands or whatever it might be. But I don't think that exists for high school e-sport athletes right now. I mean, when I was ranked as like a three star or a four star football player,

everyone in the state knew who I was. Like it's like when I walk into my high school, it's like, oh, that's Sekou. He's the football player going to Princeton. Like that's what esports should be and is currently. Like there's kids who are going to universities like West Point for the game. And the fact that when they walk into a classroom,

you don't know that is an issue. And I think that a platform like Eval needs to exist so that when they walk in the room, you're like, oh my God, that's the five star going to West Point. Because it's happening. Those kind of players exist right now. But for whatever reason, no one's built a platform to celebrate them. And I think that's exactly what our goal is. So you've raised a really good couple of points here, Ryan, in Seku.

So like Ryan, you mentioned Maryville, for instance, is a school that like has a known esports program. And West Point, where I can see direct application for somebody who's like really good at esports, you know, like I've actually heard that military colleges are looking for people who have shown talent in esports and gaming because, you know, drones are sort of the future, and AI integration is sort of the future, and those people have a leg up. So you guys both go to Princeton, which is like one of the very top Ivy League schools

in the world. Did they have a eSports program before you guys sort of pitched this idea to them? program before you guys sort of pitch this idea to them? It was definitely a beginning, but this is an older institution, so getting it up off the ground was definitely difficult. So I'm a freshman right now, so, or rising sophomore rather. So in my first year, there was a rising sophomore. Love it. Yeah. But when I got here, there was a program, but it wasn't really up to the competitive standard quite yet. Like it was a lot of friendlies and internal tournaments. But recently I've taken the program over. Seiko and I are trying to get ourselves competing. We want Princeton

to be out there for e-sports and just make a the eval platform is intended to, you know, be something, provide a platform that provides mutual benefit between the institution and the potential recruited individual where, you know, it provides a formal sort of like bridge to the relationship, but it also provides an opportunity for each one to be sort of recognized. So you guys have this program, EVAL, which, by the way, I think this whole thing is super cool.

And I've got a lot of direct questions regarding your specific program here. But I am so curious. You guys go to Princeton, which like, they don't need a name to be made for themselves. They're like one of the most like if you say Princeton people go oh my gosh, sir, you know, let me polish your shoes for you That that is a that is a university that has a lot of weight in the name

How did you guys go about getting backed by this world-class? Institution for something like eSports, you know,, like I have to imagine that they're like somebody, so one of these, I won't call them like older generation, but one of these more seasoned individuals who's been with a seasoned institution for a long time are probably like, you know, they don't need this type of opportunity. This seems like something that would take some convincing.

Walk me through that. Yeah, no, for sure. I think one of the biggest things is that the growth in esports and the new digital age that we've entered as a society and as a world. And I think that to try and ignore esports and to ignore gaming is to ignore the future. And I think that means that Princeton could not do that. So when we presented an opportunity to reframe gaming as something that contributes to both education and competition and people pushing themselves to reach different levels they probably did not... because for me personally I didn't go to college to learn more per se. I came here to play football. But through doing that I have been exposed to college to learn more per se. I came here to play football. But through doing that, I have been exposed

to so many different opportunities that I had no clue about and didn't know I would even want to be involved in. I didn't know I wanted to be part of EVAL when I came to Princeton. But through playing football, through chasing what I was passionate about, I was able to find these opportunities.

And I think that Princeton saw that in what EVAL was doing is that we can provide these students who might not know that they want to go to higher education to pursue that through something that in what EVAL was doing is that we can provide these students who might not know that they wanna go to higher education to pursue that through something that they are passionate about. And I think that they saw it as a bridge for those students who are hyper-intelligent or have gifts that need to be shared with the world

and need to just give them that kind of launch pad and just the ability to have a platform where they're celebrated. So one thing that sports does really well is it takes people who may have not had the most advantaged upbringing and it gives them sort of a platform where they can have an opportunity based on their merit, based on the value of their contribution. Is Eval sort of looking to level that playing field as well?

I can imagine that there are potential recruits that come from, call it a foster care background or something where they, we don't have necessarily like a stable home, like lots of money to promote themselves or whatever, but they, they have a lot of like time, time behind the wheel, time in front of the screen where they've been able to like hone their skills and perform well. Something that sports does well is like, look, man,

I don't care if you got like 50 million bucks in the bank or if you're like overdrawn, if you can run run fast you can run fast, dude Is this uh, where does eval line up with that Yeah, no for sure I mean when you just like you said when you step on the field It's not about the color of your skin or how much money you having to bake or what school you go to but it's just How well you perform. And I think that that's what EVAL has focused on and made it a priority in what we've created. There's a lot of companies that haven't even approached esports from the top down trying

to facilitate competitions, but what we do is we want to hyper focus on the individual. We want to promote their skill set, what they're able to do, rather than trying to create this large entity, we'd rather focus on one person. And what, and, and, because we think that's important. I think that's undervalued and overseen right now. Did you guys get any pushback from like the traditional education system there, as far as like, you know, is, is gaming a real thing

in academia, like are you wasting your time sort of thing? Did you guys have any obstacles like that? I mean, in general, gaming does get a little bit of pushback, but especially in recent years, like it's 2025 gaming is everywhere. It's ubiquitous. Yeah. Yeah. And that's just what people are willing to just trust the process and just get gaming. And educators are, educators especially are starting to integrate gaming into curriculum and just as a tool to help students like get better at what they do across the board, like in public speaking or teamwork, coordination, all of those sorts of skills.

A lot of esports leagues, which are organized within the states are actually led by educators. Like this elastic esports space, I would say, is being pioneered by these educators who see its value as like a career and technical education tool and are now using it to help students achieve their goals in terms of getting to college or developing those soft skills that they need to like get a job and secure a future for themselves. Interesting. So let's refocus back on the gaming element of this. What types of games are you guys actually recruiting for? Is this all your Rocket League's,

Fortnite's, League of Legends type things? Is it shooters, fighting games? Tell me about what sort of games you guys are kind of recruiting people for. Yeah, so EVAL focuses on four games. We focus on Rocket League, Valorant, Overwatch 2, and Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Those are the four biggest games in the collegiate scene right now and those encompass what I would call the tier one of collegiate esports. The one excluded right now is League, which is a pretty complex game and there's a lot that goes into it.

Right now the problem with League is that's pretty top heavy. So, uh, you've got a few huge talents that are occupying a lot of the bandwidth there. Yeah, absolutely. So it's definitely a high barrier to entry views. If you've ever tried to play League of Legends, it's I've tried. I look at the item shop, I go, I'm just lost. Okay, I spent my the item shop, I'm just lost. I'm like, okay, I spent my money, I go, I just, yeah.

I don't play League anymore. Fair enough. To keep it short. But yeah, those are the main games. And I anticipate it might cycle, but those are pretty stable because they are what I would call esports titles. Like games that have matchmaking,

run on pretty low spec computers as well. Like you could have a broccoli gun, maybe not like a potato computer, but like you don't need the greatest machine out there. So these are games that are easy to play online and are pretty accessible. Yeah, I was gonna ask like, how are you guys making sure this doesn't become

like a pay to play or a pay a pay-to-win sort of situation Where the people with the best tech like in there inherently have some sort of advantage But I'm sure that by selecting these types of games There's you know, there's gonna be some sort of advantage that people eat out just like in sports Like your your cleats might what cleats you choose might give you just a teeny tiny advantage, but every little bit counts. But it's not gonna be like, you know, racing a Civic versus a Formula One car sort of situation.

And then I also imagine that these games sort of have proven, there's a proof of concept already that they draw crowds, right? Or they draw eyeballs anyways. Like it's a solvent of concept already that they draw crowds, right? Or they draw eyeballs anyways. Like it's a solvent sort of business model with these games. So knowing that you have the games targeted, how do you guys go about identifying and recruiting talent? Yeah, for sure. I mean, our strategy has been working with regional leagues first and foremost. There's a lot of people who are facilitating high school competition, but the people who

are doing it in the best way are these local organizations, the ones who are really immersed within their state and prioritize facilitating something that kids care about. So there's some other orgs who are running national scenes where kids are competing across schools across the country or whatever it might be, but they don't care. Like you're gonna play some kid from playing from, I guess, PA, playing someone from California. They don't know any of the kids on the other team.

And it's not something where they're invested in. Whereas when you work with a regional league, it's the kid down the street. You know what his face looks like. And if he beats you tomorrow, you might see him on the bus on the way to school. So it's like kid down the street. You know what his face looks like. And if he beats you tomorrow, you might see him on the bus on the way to school. So it's like, we want to work with those.

Dodging the eyeballs. Yeah. Yeah, we were trying to create this competition that I got to experience and other athletes get to experience in playing traditional sports. You want to look the person in the eye when you take the life from them. You know, it's not something.

Whoa bro, settle down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's not something where you click a button and an icon disappears. You want to know that you had some impact on a team. You have power in what you've done and you really have accomplished something. And I think that the first thing we've done is provide rankings. I have to say, I'm questioning the ethics of your platform.

we've done is provide rankings. I have to say I'm questioning the ethics of your platform. Seems like you guys are training a bunch of sociopaths, man. I'm kidding, dude. I'm kidding. There's a reason he's the traditional sports player and I'm the esports player. I gotta say, man, I think that there is value in that, man. Pain is the greatest teacher. People learn from these sorts of experiences. And yeah, it sucks to go through. It sucks to lose, man. And then you are ultimately, you end up in a fork in the road where you go like, I have this pain.

I can either let this pain dominate me, or I can use it as fuel to make sure that this never happens again. And, and, and so like, I think that that is fundamentally one of those things that sports provides that e-sports has had a challenge with. And so it sounds like you guys are like trying to integrate that typical sort of sports mentality, that competitive mentality into the DNA of your program.

No, exactly. And I think the way that we've done that is by providing you the understandings of why you lost to somebody or why you beat somebody. And the things we do with leagues is we provide them with a top 50 for each game that we rank for them. And then we also provide league rankings

and then composite scores for those leagues so that when coaches soar through, there's a narrative and parents can get involved. So one of the biggest things that we rank for them. And then we also provide league rankings and then composite scores for those leagues so that when coaches soar through there's a narrative and parents can get involved. So one of the biggest things that we found is like there's this kind of separation between parents understanding what's going on when they're watching their son compete in a Valorant match. But if you're able to see analytics and then take these analytics and transform it into a published piece, an article, that kind of breaks down exactly why they won the game, who's the best in the game, and why they should be celebrated. It makes it a little bit easier for them to kind of

get involved and give their children that kind of support. And that's kind of another thing that we're trying to bring. So on top of the analytics and that kind of star rankings and understanding, there's also this piece of giving people the narrative of understanding why they should care and why it's important. So I have to imagine that you guys are going to end up filtering through quite a few applicants. And you're also providing metrics here.

You're providing analytics, the measurables that the institutions you're serving can evaluate to determine whether or not they want to provide a scholarship. And even before that, whether somebody has met the mark to be able to be recruitable at that point. I imagine that's a lot of data. Are you guys developing tech or something to support your analytics process? Yeah. So the main people who do the sorting through our data is going to be the colleges themselves because at our core, we are a database. So the colleges can sort through.

We have a series of filters that they can use. But we're also developing things with AI, such as using large language models to figure out like the best player for a program. And the players end as well, figuring out what school would fit you, given your academic criteria, given your rank, given your eval score, right? So we're not only using like typical backend stuff to make it work, we're also integrating new solutions like AI and machine learning so that we can ensure the best outcomes for both colleges and students Yeah and I think like we said before you understand that is an overwhelming amount of information and The biggest thing we want to do I can't even imagine how much I mean

It's pretty it's pretty absurd and to try and sort through players and figure out who's a high schooler and who's not It's you could say it's impossible But the way that we've kind of gone around that is, again, working with these leagues that are already facilitating competitions at the high school level. And then on top of that, we provide combines throughout the school year, in the same way that our rivals would.

Allowing these kids compete on a Twitch stage in front of college coaches that streamed nationally. And you can see the best players performing in front of you. And the only way you can sign up is as a high school player. So that we, again, can find the best players and then kind of verify them through the performances they do in the combines and the leagues. OK, that makes sense.

So if somebody were to receive a scholarship, is that like a full ride? Is it a partial scholarship? Have you guys gotten to that point yet? So, the state of college esports right now, a lot of funding's coming in as the years go by. This past year, over $46 million of scholarships were issued for esports, and that's almost- Whoa, no way!

$46 million? Oh yeah, and that's like almost double of last year. So it's almost the same trajectory. I mean, I imagine that's still small if you compare it to like football or something along those lines. But just the fact that there's $46 million in our education system earmarked for esports

is crazy to me. Oh yeah, for sure. And this number's only growing because now a lot of division one schools are starting to invest in eSports. Like they're creating these huge facilities and putting a lot more money towards scholarships. Right now, about a quarter of programs offer full rides and other programs can offer near full rides, half tuition, things like that. For programs that don't have full rides, what they do is they try to supplement eSports scholarships with academic scholarships.

Because the main limitation for those is not that they can't offer full rides, but is that they can't offer full rides solely for esports. So even if you are a talented player, given that you meet some academic criteria, you can fill in the rest of your tuition with these supplemental scholarships. So though quarter have explicit esports full rides, I'd estimate that well over a third to a half you can really get a true full ride scholarship just for playing games. That's crazy to me, man. That is crazy to me.

And I'm sure the entrance requirements or the scholarship requirements sort of scale with the school, like a Princeton for instance would probably have a much harder line to hit than a community college or something. You guys, have you actually begun your recruiting process or are you pre-launch at this point? Have you started actually recruiting people?

Yeah, so right now we've just, our platform is live, we're in a beta stage where we're accepting our signups, but the real, the party begins in the fall when the school year starts, when all these colleges are online, when all these leagues are online, all the performance is there so that we can really run our analytics. Right now, our platform is open for anyone to sign up to get analytics about their ranked games and just to get some info about the college scene. But the real fun begins once the actual competition starts and the school year starts and the recruiting cycle begins.

Got it, so this, you're considering this probably like your fertilizer stage, like your ramp up stage, like you're getting the word out there. You're sort of like planting the seeds that you hope to harvest in the fall. Yeah. Have you guys had any discussions around what sort of families might support this? You know, I, I, I think things are getting probably easier. As you mentioned, esports are sort of ubiquitous. It's my generation who are having kids

that are probably being recruited now. I grew up with games, and so yeah, games are a part of my life and have been a part of my life. And kids that are growing up now that are at their college level have probably never known a life without gaming being a very common part of everyday life. But I have to imagine that there are probably some families that are skeptical about

a person, their child, putting a disproportionate amount of their time into gaming, for instance, rather than economics or business or English even, you know. Have you guys had any dialogues about that, like how to handle sort of family reaction? Or is that sort of handled at the school level? I think that we haven't been the people who have been faced with those kind of questions ourselves. The people that were around are eSports people. The people are already involved and love what they're doing. I think that to convince a school is kind of the conversations we've had

in terms of like talking to college about why e-sports programs are important, why they should be investing more infrastructure into it, and why they should be paying for a platform like e-val. So understanding that e-sports offers them a way to retain students and attract them to the universities, especially smaller schools. It's a big way that they've used eSports is to attract people to come to the universities because they're

offering it where big institutions are still catching up. So for example like AmeriVille is using eSports as a way to bring people to their school in putting eSports at like the center of their universe. Yeah but like right now especially for parents, it's definitely taking a lot less for newer parents to be convinced because games, as you mentioned, are ubiquitous, games are everywhere. You can't really go a day without seeing them.

And about 85% of teens identify as gamers in some capacity. So it's something that's a lot of parents are having to get used to. I think especially parents who are willing to embrace the future are people who accept that. People who have grown up with video games even though like even other nascent stages right like growing up with like an NES or something right just the knowing that video games are really going somewhere and seeing the growth those are types of parents who tend to support it.

For those who are more hesitant, you do end up with my parents, for example. I'm a first generation American. Both of my parents are from India. So they always support me in what I do. So not to say that they were against eSports, but to them, especially since eSports is not big in a lot of countries right now, mainly in America and some countries like South Korea which has a huge League C in China and places like that, but it's not the case everywhere. So you'd have some parents who are a bit skeptical about what it can offer, but that's what we're

trying to do. We're trying to show the tangible value because once you can connect the idea of eSports to not being like a waste of time, but instead of something that you can get your college tuition paid for, the whole narrative shifts. Yeah. So to that point, again, I'm somebody who grew up gaming and I don't have kids, but I would imagine that if I had a kid who said, hey, I may get like a full ride or even a partial scholarship for for overwatch 2 I would probably have some reservation about the idea because my next step in my thought process goes okay well this

person is going to be this child of mine that I love is going to be spending a disproportionate amount of their time on overwatch to remain competitive and What comes after that like I I am having a hard time understanding how that Education being supplemented because of this activity is going to lead into something that is like a solvent career for this person. But as I'm thinking this, like, you know, this is a very odd bias that I have, because the same could be said for any sport, really. You know, like if somebody's like spending a lot of time playing football or soccer or hockey or whatever the case is,

you know, that is time that they could be spending, doing something that would lead them towards a more traditional sort of career path with a much lower likelihood of success. And you know, I have to like be very rational about my thinking to go like, oh, it's really not all that different than any athlete. You know, I mean, like it's, it is,

it is very hard to get recruited for something like this. You have to be presumably some sort of elite performer to really excel at the highest levels. And even those people, like if you were to go from college football to the NFL, it is like a very low likelihood of success. But that does not remove the overall merit of the activity from having any value. As you mentioned, there's I think inherent having any value. As you mentioned, there's, I think, inherent human value in being competitive,

in having to do something that is hard and perhaps contains the possibility of embarrassment or loss and doing it in a public format. I think that those are very valuable skills that, you know, frankly, the education system as a whole doesn't really do a great job of preparing people for. So it's an interesting thing, you know, like I'm probably one of these people who should have the lowest bias against something like this, but I still feel like I'm struggling to reconcile that. So I'm interested to hear how that develops with you guys.

I wanted to come back around to something that you mentioned because there's a correlation here. You mentioned that you're using AI to help develop language models and you know Pretty much like anybody in tech to to help streamline the process and and become more efficient Since essentially what you guys are at a fundamental level is a database Most companies are doing this. I think there's a recent study that says something like 90% of companies whether they're tech or otherwise Are integrating AI processes into their business. It is just the way of the future. We recently did a couple of episodes. One was just sort of talking about whether or not AI performing the function of, you know, life service type games like a Marvel rivals.

Like if you were playing on a team full of AI bots that were indistinguishable from humans, like does that remove any value? And if they're indistinguishable from humans, you know, arguably not. And then the other one was with regards to augmented reality and people's sort of access to tech devices and becoming more and more and more ubiquitous, you know, it is going to just continue to be a bigger part of people's lives. At what point do you think that AI changes the tech landscape so much that there just isn't value in esports anymore because anything one of these players could do a computer could do? So I have some pretty strong opinions about this.

I'd love to hear it. Yeah, I can, I'll start with a little anecdote. I was playing a rocket league game a few months ago and I noticed one of my teammates was just like really good. Like wasn't doing the flashiest things, but the movements were like frame perfect. Like this guy was flicking the ball at the perfect time and just hitting everything top corner.

I'm like, wow, this guy is insane. And then I read about how their AI bots in rocket league and players are putting bots on their accounts to play instead of them. So AI is definitely here in e-sports and I don't see it leaving, but I firmly believe that esports has value because at its core it's an entertainment industry. Esports is about entertaining people, it's about like facilitating competition between the players and giving spectators something to watch. And I don't think AI can ever replace that. Like say you made a like a robot basketball player.

What do you like ignore like LeBron, right? Yes, I'd be fascinated by a robot basketball player. Yeah. Would you rather pay attention to a regular cop or a robo cop? I'm like, there's a lot to see in like the pinnacle of a sport or a game, but the, a lot of the value we get is from storylines from seeing the human aspect of it. And of course chess is a pretty good example.

Chess is something where if you put the world champion up against stockfish, stockfish is going to win 10 times out of 10, right? But millions of people still watch chess. Millions of people tune in for the world championship. That is an excellent argument. Yep. And why do they do that? Because there's a story, because they get entertained,

because these are real people playing. So no matter how good AI gets at playing esports, it can't do what a human can do. It can't entertain you, and you can't have that genuine connection. Because at the end of the day, it's humans watching humans and humans competing with humans, right? There's a sense of camaraderie with that. There's a sense of sympathy for the people who are playing. There's that, like, their emotions and that's what makes esports valuable and AI can't

replace that. I love it. I have to agree. There is something about humans where we are drawn to stories. We're drawn to sort of like the narrative and the human experience. And I think that's really hard to replace. Do you see eSports? Have you guys ever been to a fighting game tournament by any chance? Like a in-person like fighting game tournament? Like you guys are you know, this is old man

John talking here But like you guys miss the era of the arcade where like you would have like a group of like 30 people Hunched around a Mortal Kombat or a Street Fighter and people are just putting quarters up on the screens and watching each other Duke it Out it was like the original the original e-sport was fighting games basically. But they still hold fighting game tournaments at like PAX and some of these larger gaming conventions where like you go there and the feeling is as electric as any high level football, basketball, boxing event

that I've ever been to. Do you see things like Rocket League or Overwatch ever getting to that point where we're like literally like filling arenas and stadiums and watching like the world's top talent compete against each other? Oh absolutely. Some of those esports titles are already doing that. For example, Rocket League is having their world... Okay, is our video good? It just says... Yeah, yeah, you're good. You're good. Don't worry about it.

All right. Yeah. So, something like Rocket League, for example, they had their world championships in September. They sold out an entire arena in Paris. Wow. Yeah, or just outside of Paris. And like, that's insane. They're able to fill a stadium with like these electric vibes for seeing these gamers just play and compete against each other. And a lot of games are doing this. League is something that is just, oh my god, so many people follow that game. It's not my cup of tea, but it's so popular in Asia, especially popular in Europe, popular in North America.

And so many of these games are just filling up massive arenas. I went to a Prudential Center for the North American League Championship Series, and that arena was packed to the brim. And NA for leagues, I'd say one of the less popular regions, especially compared to Asia, but that stadium was filled, that stadium was energetic

and the vibes were awesome. And that's something that you get with esports, that's just so awesome. And I mean, if you look ahead, 2026 is gonna have esports in the Olympics. So I mean, it's like- What? If you're looking for competition, I mean-

What game? I am totally unaware of that. What game is gonna be in the Olympics. So I mean it's like... What? If you're looking for competition, I mean... What game? I'm totally unaware of that. What game is going to be in the Olympics? Do you know? So it's kind of strange. It's actually, it's not exactly like a traditional game like VALORANT or League of Legends or something like that, but it's like... rowing. Yeah. They're a little bit, I would say misguided right now. The International Olympic Committee has sanctioned e-sports, but the e-sports they talk about are not the e-sports you think of. It's more like electronic sports. Like you're not playing Valorant, you're playing like archery, like a soccer simulator.

Yeah, which they've got the spirit. They got the right spirit, but not quite there yet. Got it. It sounds like they need to talk to my friends Ryan and Sekou, right? And get a little... I think they're trying to get their hands in a new audience but I don't know if they're going about it the right way yet. But I think it's glad that the conversation is being had and that esports is being brought to that stage by whatever means it is at least for the first time I can see why they would do it that way You know I like us as gamers like it doesn't seem like the most intuitive thing for us But I think if they're trying to bridge the gap between

conventional athleticism and eSports This seems I could see you know some bean counter saying like well You know, this is the lowest barrier of entry for most people we'll see how it fleshes out, but I agree the fact that these conversations are happening is extremely exciting and Again, I it's such an interesting time to be alive for me somebody who grew up in the incubatory phases of like home gaming Seeing what it has become, you know It is really exciting and what you guys are doing specifically is just so cool.

I love that this is a merit-based opportunity for people to really shine in an emerging activity and linking them up with, you know, ways that they can actually get higher education. They can help establish the foundations for their future. It's just such a cool concept you guys Do you mind if I ask you just a couple of quick questions about just gaming in general? Let's do it. What is your favorite? I'll ask you guys each this question. What is your favorite competitive game of all time? Secretly Hearthstone Wow, man What's your favorite competitive game of all time?

Secretly Hearthstone. Wow, man. That's pretty awesome. Yeah, mine is I'm a Rocket League player. It's got to be Rocket League. I've put more hours than I'd like to admit into that game. And it's just it's a different experience. It's car soccer. You don't get anything like it. Well, yeah, it's really cool. One of the one of the uh one of the

founders of this show josh um he's got literally thousands and thousands of hours in rocket league and a friend of the show leif x is a former professional rocket league player and also he's a he's a current rocket league announcer you know it that's awesome. You know him? Have you had him on the show? Yeah, LeifX, yeah. Yeah, we have narrowly missed something because he's got other commitments and stuff. But like him and I talk semi-regularly. But hey, I mean. Oh wow, that's awesome. Maybe there's something to talk about after the show here. Oh yeah.

What is your guilty pleasure game? Hearthstone. Just doubling down on Hearthstone. Yeah. I mean, if you go deeper, probably if we want to go back, I'm going to go with Balloons, Tower, Defense, like five.

Oh, that's so cool, man. Tower, Defense game. That's awesome. What about you, Ryan you Ryan yeah for me oh probably right now Pokemon TCG pocket and I guess as an extension of that probably yugioh oh my god I think yugioh like not a video game but I think that's my guilty pleasure right now like the actual trading card game like a trading card yeah yeah I mean they are adjacent hobbies I grew up playing Warhammer But I think that's my guilty pleasure right now like the actual trading card game trading card. Yeah

Yeah, I mean that they are adjacent hobbies I grew up playing warhammer and magic the gathering and stuff and like oh so like as I grew up to be an adult I had to get into MMA and kickboxing so I felt like less of a dork but But ultimately I'm a dork first and anything else second If somebody was interested in learning more about your program How would they how would they go about finding you guys following you guys and applying for this program? Yeah at eval we're trying to build a future for student athletes You can create a free profile as a competitor as a sports player at eval gaming comm

And we also have our discord on our website and you can also find us on instagram as well at eval games. Love it. Guys I'm going to make sure to include that information in the show description here. We are running out of time here. It has been so cool to talk to you guys about this. Frankly I had no idea that a program like this even existed. But I happen to work for a few charities that serve foster kids. And, you know, they are people who are in disadvantaged situations oftentimes. And a lot of them find comfort and solace and frankly, just a place in this

world through eSports. So the fact that you guys are developing this platform just speaks so loudly to me. And I am just impressed with your guys' approach to this and to your deployment. And I have no doubt that you guys will be a smashing success. Everybody who's listening to this episode, thank you so much for your time and for your ears. If you've enjoyed what you've heard, please take a moment to leave us five stars and follow us on your podcast player of choice If you want to take your support to the next level, please consider joining our patreon We've got a host of great perks including access to the pre show and post show with guests like Ryan and Seiko here Say coup sorry to To get a little a little inside baseball there and then

of course We invite everybody to join our discord. We've got like 1100 members in there of Active members who are all gamers and it's the most positive what? welcoming warm Gaming community that I have ever been a part of we literally have 1100 people and no moderators because there's no drama It's just a wonderful environment to be a part of and you get to be a part of. We literally have 1,100 people and no moderators because there's no drama. It's just a wonderful environment to be a part of and you get to be a part of the show. That is all we've got time for in this episode everybody. Thank you again for your time and until next time, happy gaming. Bye. Thanks for watching!