Video Gamers Podcast - Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast

Episode Date: March 13, 2025

Gaming hosts Josh and Ryan are joined by Harebrained Studios Mike and Chris to chat Graft!  Graft is a cyberpunk survival horror with a very promising future! Join us as we chat the BANGER of a trailer, how they came up with the idea, the challenges of indie game development and learn the difference between a Creative Director and Executive Producer when it comes to gaming. It’s another video game packed episode from the Video Gamers Podcast! Make sure you Wishlist Graft here: https://store.steampowered.com/app/3141390/GRAFT/ Thanks to our MYTHIC Supporters: Redletter, Ol’ Jake, Disratory and Gaius Connect with the show: Support us on Patreon: patreon.com/videogamerspod Join our Gaming Community: https://discord.gg/Dsx2rgEEbz Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/videogamerspod/  Follow us on X: https://twitter.com/VideoGamersPod  Subscribe to us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU12YOMnAQwqFZEdfXv9c3Q   Visit us on the web: https://videogamerspod.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I thought you'd be dead by now. Get to the theater and experience the movie audiences are calling. An adrenaline rush of a good time. It's a big screen blast. Find a badass. I know, all right? Nova Kane, now playing. I'm not going back to university to be your friend.

I'm going so I can get Uber One for students. It saves you on Uber and Uber Eats. I'm there for $0 delivery fee on cheeseburgers, up to 5% off smoothies and 5% Uber credits back on rides. Just to be clear, I'm there for savings, not whatever you think university is for. Get Uber One for Students, a membership to save on Uber and Uber Eats.

With deals this good, everyone wants to be a student. Join for just $4.99 a month. Savings may vary. Eligibility and member terms apply. ["Savings May Vary"] Hello, fellow gamers, and welcome to the Video Gamers Podcast. Nothing is quite as fun as finding a game that gets you excited,

a game that just looks incredible, a game that just looks incredible. We get that hype meter going, the hype train starts rolling, and the rest is nothing but the pure joy of anticipation. Well, boy, do we have an episode for you. But first, some introductions are in order. I am your host, Josh, and joining me, it's not every day that he starts humming the song to a trailer

or gets him smiling like this. It's Ryan. Dude, I'm just over here, Raven. Where's my glow sticks? Oh, man. People are going, what? Raven, what is this episode? And joining us, they're the men of the hour,

the guys who helped make one of the best trailers we've seen in a while, the masterminds behind graft. It's Mike and Chris. Hey everybody. Thanks for having us on guys. How are you guys doing? Oh, absolutely. We are so excited to have you guys here.

We are going to be talking about this graft game that you guys are developing. We're going to talk about this trailer that's got us hyped. We'll talk a little bit about like what it's like to be a smaller indie studio as well. Get some insight into what you guys do and all of that. So this is going to be a really fun episode. So thank you both for joining us today. And then, you know what? I'll tell you what, just for the listeners,

can you guys give us a little bit of background about what you do? You guys both work at Harebrained Studios, and what it is that you actually do there? Yeah, yeah. So I'm Mike McCain. I'm the executive producer here at Harebrained. And I'm Chris Rogers. I'm creative director producer here at Harebrained. And I'm Chris Rogers.

I'm creative director at Harebrained. Yeah, so- We've both been with the studio. We've been making games together since 2011. That's when Harebrained was founded. We're probably best known for Shadowrun, Battletech. Those are two of our big games on Steam. Had over millions of players for both.

And yeah, that's millions of players for both. And yeah, that's kind of our story. We've made a lot of different games over the years. I think a big through line for us is just, we love bringing these great game worlds to life. And then we love giving you guys, players like you, as much agency as we can within those worlds to play the way that you want to play. So that's us, that's our brand name.

That's awesome. So you guys have actually been working together since 2011? Yeah. Oh my goodness. And you guys are still friends? I want to ring this guy's neck every other day. I don't know why. Only every third day.

No, I mean, it's been great, right? Like time flies when you're having fun. Apparently we've, we've shipped probably like, well, like 10 or 11 games and DLCs together at this point. It's been a journey. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to give our listeners, cause I'd actually love to dive into what the different roles do. I mean, executive producer, creative director, you know, I mean, that kind of stuff. But before we get into that, you did mention Battle Tech

and Shadowrun. So just to give our listeners kind of an idea of the pedigree that you guys actually bring with you here, I mean, just kind of starting at the earliest here, Shadowrun, you mentioned that you guys have Shadowrun returns, which released in 2013, Shadowrun Dragonfall in 2014, Shadowrun Hong Kong in 2015. You know, and as gamers, you know, we do look at review scores

and things like that. You guys have not made a bad game. They're killing it. I mean, the review scores and things like that. You guys, you guys have not made a bad game. They're killing it. I mean, the review scores for these games range from 83% for Battle Tech, which is your newest game which released in 2018. I mean, who doesn't love Max, right? I mean, 83%, 88%, 89%, 86%. You guys are crushing it, man.

Thank you. Thanks, yeah. Yeah, I mean, so yeah. So, you know, like I said, you guys have been doing this a long time. You obviously know what you're doing, but yeah. Can you give us, I mean, we're, we're just gamers where, you know, we don't really understand a lot of the kind of titles and things like that. So Mike, you mentioned that you are the executive producer for hair brain.

So what, what does it actually entail for somebody that doesn't understand that title at all? I like to say it's kind of just figuring out how to make it happen. Right. So that's on the development side. Like, how are we putting all this stuff together in engine? Like, what are all the moving parts? And then that's also on the business side, right? Like money is an important part of how to make something happen. So that's, it's a little bit of everything. You know, we went independent again last year. So when you're a small studio like this,

it's sort of like you're all the, I don't know, you're the crew of a little spaceship, right? And everyone's wearing a lot of different hats. Right. Well, the numbers seem to be going well with the ratings, like Josh said. I mean, I don't know if my mom would even give me an 88%. Those are some good numbers. I'll share your mom.

Yeah. Yeah. And then Chris, for you, what is it exactly? Just remind people what the title is and then kind of what that actually, like kind of what that entails for you. So, so just like on the business side with the executive producer, the creative directors mostly focused on the creative side. So that's everything from game design to the narrative, which is always really important in our games. And it's not, it's not being like the single voice, but it's the person that can organize the creativity

and work with everybody and kind of set the vision and say like, this is in, this is out. We like this. We're coalescing around certain ideas because there's, when you're making games and we sit down for the first time, there's so many good ideas, but you have a limited amount of time and a limited amount of effort, a little bit of amount of, um, effort, money, everything that you can put into it. So you have to find exactly the right kind of mix to make something that really stands out. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I mean, I'm kind of picking up like you guys are kind of like the glue, right? That keeps everything together.

Takes all these people that, you know, that you guys work with. I work with some developers at my job. They like to sit in the office with their headphones on and not talk to anybody kind of thing. But you got to have those people that can kind of say, hey, we can take these different skill sets and we can kind of combine them and kind of see this vision as far as like an end product kind of goes. And it sounds to me like you guys are the ones that kind of help that vision of what is this end product and how do we deal with not only the people that are creating the game.

But Mike, like you said, you know, sometimes the other the other aspects from outside, like, you know, the business side of things and stuff like that. Is that kind of fair to say? Yeah, there's definitely an element of human duct tape, I guess, kind of wrapping everything together. Just, you know, like Chris does such a good job of like focusing in on the soul of the game and like what's really gonna, what do we want to connect? How do we want to connect with players, right? And just like, and that kind of becomes the North star, right? Like it's, it's our job to make the best game that we are capable of making and, uh, and just everything's got to come back. Awesome. Well, hopefully you're that, that NASA duct tape.

That's just like impeccable and sticks to anything no matter what. Like I, we had a, I had a cousin that had his dad worked for NASA and he had some NASA duct tape and it was the best stuff I've ever had. I never used it again, but man that's. Oh man. That's the hope, yeah.

Yeah, I mean it is. We've always been a really collaborative studio. So, you know, it's always been everybody working together. These jobs are much more kind of, they're less the sort of deep focus that the people that put the headphones on and they can just dive and dive and dive deeper into their concentration. And it's a little bit more kind of catch as catch can and kind of keeping everything going. As I'm sure running a podcast is probably feels a lot of like little that you got to do all the time. Sometimes you feel like that person that's been in the, the, the eight different plates

kind of thing. And you're just going, please don't let any of these fall down. So, well, okay. So one other question, and then we have to get into graphs soon guys, cause I'm about to burst, um, on this one. So just with the history that you two have with working together for so long and through a series like shadow run and battle tech and stuff like that. Is there a moment that stands out to you guys from your kind of careers together and making these games that just kind of stands at like the pinnacle was, you know, I mean, I like my brain just kind of goes to like releasing your first game that's gotta be like the most memorable experience. Um,

but is there something like that? Um, with your kind of history together in, in, in development and stuff that kind of stands out to you guys? Oh gosh. I mean, there's so many moments. Uh, yeah, so we got our start, her brain got us start making mobile games. We had a contract to make a this iPad pirate game for for bungee like back in 2011. Okay, that was the first game, you know, that was sort of a crash course. And in this team, Chris, there's probably like, eight or nine of us in a storage closet that

our founder Jordan was renting out. Um, and, and so that was, that was our crash course working together as a, as a team. Yeah. I, I'd probably choose the shadow on returns Kickstarter. Cause cause man, that like that IP that the Shadowrun universe has like such a, a strong fan base and community built around it. Since Jordan created it back in the early nineties. And, uh, we, we put that Kickstarter campaign together in just a couple

of months and had no idea what to expect. And seeing those numbers sheet up on the first day is like, well, you know, we're this is happening. We're in for a ride. Oh my gosh. And that was a different scale of game than anything we'd made before. So that was sort of like, welcome to the, yeah, I don't know if it qualifies as the big leagues or not, but you know, the next league up there. Yeah. I don't know if it qualifies as the big leagues or not, but you know, the next league up there.

I would say so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the, we're about to make a big game. And then Chris, what about for you? Is there something that stands out for you? That's a good one. You know, I think, I think when you get to a launch, like we always had a studio tradition, like Mitch would come and bring cigars and everybody would have a cigar and everything. Every time that that happened, you know, like when you're doing your life and you're just

kind of going through things, you don't really notice the passage of time. And then all of a sudden, like some moment like this would come back where it's like a tradition. And every time we had one of those, it was a moment where I'd go back where it's like a tradition. And every time we had one of those, it was a moment where I'd go back home and be like, Whoa, a lot's changed. Like a lot's changed in my life. A lot's changed in everybody's lives. Like people have gotten married. They've had kids. I felt ill because I don't smoke cigars that often. Oh, I know that mistake.

Oh, I know that mistake, man. But I think each one of those times as a slice, just each time is like, oh, time's jumped forward again. That's a big moment. How awesome, man. That's so cool. Yeah. OK, all right. We've danced around this long enough, guys.

I got to. We got to talk grass a little bit. Josh has been very excited. As you can tell. I'm an excitable guy. All right. We, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we a huge hit for my brain right away is the music that you guys have in that trailer. Number one, I'm a fan of EDM. I like electronic music. I grew up in the 80s and 90s. I don't know what causes that, but oh my goodness, I don't know that I have ever vibed with a song in a trailer. We're going to get it. Don't worry. We're going to get into the art style and all the other really cool stuff with this. But I'm watching this trailer, and I am instantly like, oh my gosh, this is like a banger, man. And so I do what any normal person does.

I Shazam it. I don't know if people use Shazam anymore, but that's like on my phone. So I'm doing Shazam, and it's listening. And I'm like, oh, it's not going to find this. And then it finally pulls it up and it goes music from the game graphed and I went, what are you talking about? So like, how does one go about like finding somebody that number one

can make an absolute banger of a song like this? But like, I would love some insight into like, did you know the person you wanted to go to? Was this just like, guys, we got to blow this out of the park. We need, you know, we need somebody that can make this really awesome song. But like, how did this happen? I guess. Yeah. So we've been working with a guy by the name of John Everest. Ever since Shadow Run returns, right, Mike? Yeah.

Yeah. First one came on that I think for the trailer for Shadowrun Returns and then Altered Dragon. He's been amazing. He's gone on to work on Overwatch, the Star Wars Outlaws. Just nominated for a Grammy. Just amazing. He's got some upcoming awards too. I think GDC they're coming through, just super talented and also really collaborative. And so we had an idea and we had a rough animatic of what we wanted.

And we had a temp track in there. And we were talking about that we wanted this to be something that was, you know, a little bit against type and a little bit maybe that, that we hadn't necessarily heard as much before. And, and John listened and he was like, okay, I'll be back in a little bit. And he came back and he,

and he had like this amazing like, like start. And then he said, you know what? I know, um, this amazing vocalist, uh, her name is Rachel Hardy. Like, I think we can bring her in and I think she's going to elevate this. And, um, and I think Rachel correct me if I'm wrong, Mike, um, uh, but I think Rachel wrote the, the words that she wanted to sing. Yeah. Really? I mean, literally like, that she wanted to sing. Yeah. Really? Literally.

And so, and she came back. Yeah, like John, Rachel came back and it was this track. Well, that's what we were going to ask. Do you just, how do you go about having this custom music made? Do you just kind of let them run with it and just kind of vibe on what they create or how does that happen? If you're lucky, you have somebody that you can trust so much. You can just be like, this is the vibe. Like we want it to be essential.

We want it to be something that really touches on, um, you know, without kidding, I, you know, without saying too much about the game, but just kind of touches on this idea of like, like there's horror, there's terror, but there's also this like sensuality and this aspect of memory and personality that's gonna be really important to the game. And we wanted that to show up in the song and for her to sing these like kind of aggressive words

that are also very breathy and this like driving beat and then combined with the visuals, I'm so glad it hit for you all. Oh, it's so good. It was so good. I mentioned it before we started recording. Like we watched thousands of trailers, man. And a lot of times they just go, yeah, okay. Or whatever. And it's, it's very rare that like a trailer jumps out at us like that one did. And I mean, again, we're going to get into the rest of the trailer being awesome here in a second. But the music was just the thing that instantly blew me away.

And I was like, we talk about it all the time. I think it's one of those things where, especially with indie developers, soundtracks are incredible. I mean, some people talk about Hollow Knight, Undertale. I mean, there's a ton of indie games that you can say, hey, the soundtrack for these games is second to none, you know, and it's almost become a thing where it's like, is having that unique soundtrack or that unique sound will just say, is it something like indie developers, like,

I don't want to say go fishing for it because I think that undermines it, but is it something that like they prioritize to say, dude,, if we're going to build this game, we need the best sound to go with it? Because I feel like there's such a gap in between what you hear in a AAA title versus what you get with an indie title and the original soundtracks that go with that. And so I think as gamers, we just recognize, hey, indie games have phenomenal soundtracks.

This is kind of what goes hand in hand with them. But I don't think we understand the process behind that. Or is it like a direct and concerted effort to go, man, we have to have this really unique sound to go with our game? That's a good question. And Mike, do you want to jump in? I'm just going to reiterate.

I'll throw out my thoughts. I mean, John is a legend. We're, we're, we're very glad to have his, uh, talent and collaboration, um, on. Gosh. I mean, yeah. Everything we've made in the past decade. So it's like, it's sort of like, I don't know how to give you a generalized answer to that question, because I know our way of doing it is to talk to John. And that is go to John. And, and I think, I think at the indie level, you have to do one thing that really stands out and if you're operating at something that's more, that's

a more AAA level, that's not my, that's not my world, so I don't know, I, you know, I'm speaking somewhat out of turn here, but you need your audience to, to feel like it is going to be something, you know, expansive, like that's gonna be the equivalent of a Marvel movie or the equivalent of like Gladiator or something like that. So you need, that kind of pushes you more towards orchestral, it pushes you more towards you have those, you have those resources to you and stuff like that. So I think that sort of creates a certain type of sound. Whereas indies kind of have to sort of say pick me and and kind of try to find something

that fits their voice. You mentioned Hollow Knight, which is a soundtrack I love. And that game has its own look and it has its own feel all the way through. And it has that, and it couldn't have anything other than those kind of mournful, kind of very lonely tracks that kind of flow through everything.

As an end game. It definitely complements, from what we saw from the game. It complements it so well. So I mean, you guys did a good job on the pairing as well. So I mean, we can't wait to get into it. And we're going to dive into what we saw more. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

So personal question here, this may be just for Josh. But are we going to be able to get the full version of that song at some point? We'd love to. What? Yeah. I don't know how that works. I don't know if when you partner with John and Rachel,

if it's like they kind of go, no, we have artistic license to that or something. How much money you got? That's what they're asking. How much money? How much money you got? I don't mean me right's what they're asking. How much money, how much money you got? I don't mean me right now. I just like, once the game's released, like, you know,

am I going to be able to actually like download the full version of this song or purchase it or something like that? What make it happen? Right now that's the track. So they would have, they would, but I think they would, they would expand it. Okay. Perfect. Well, I love it.

So I'll sign us up for launch. I love it. I'll sign us up for that. Yeah, absolutely. OK, we have to take a quick break real quick, and we'll be right back in just a second to talk a little bit more about Graph. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan.

For texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. All right, sorry, we're back guys.

Sorry for the detour there. I just, I get excited, man. And I got to talk about some of these things. So let's, I mean, not that I'm not excited to talk about the rest of this game, man. But so we're talking Graft. You guys released the trailer for this. It's got this incredible art style.

It's got this incredible sound to it. We got some gameplay, which I think looked really, really dark and atmospheric and just has. The vibe is kind of, for me, instantly jumped out on that one. But how would you describe Graft to people? Like, I mean, you guys are the ones that are creating this game. So it's like if you had to describe this in, you know, 10,

15 seconds to somebody that maybe hasn't seen the trailer yet, how would you go about actually describing this to someone? Sure. So Graft is a survival horror RPG combo taking the best elements of survival horror where you are going to be up against it in terms of how much resources you have. But combining that with an RPG element so you'll have the option to sort of choose and influence how game events happen and you can upgrade your kit and sort of choose how you fight back against the horrors that you're facing off against.

I love it. RPG elements in general. I I'm a, I'm a sucker for progression. So anytime somebody talks about like getting better in a game or like, you know, getting these upgrades or these abilities now, obviously the name of the game is graft and we've seen some of the stuff in the trailer that you guys are leaning into. So we'll talk about that in a minute too.

That's, I mean, I wanted to say, I've always wondered something, for the process, especially when you've made a series of games, how does that go along coming up with a new IP, something brand new, hey, let's start fresh, let with like a new IP like something brand new like hey let's start fresh let's make a new world a new environment a new atmosphere like how does that whole thing come about?

Yeah a little bit different every time you know I think it's always a conversation you know with ourselves with our team it's even you know it's ourselves, with our team, it's, it's, it's even, you know, it's not necessarily like literally a conversation with the audience, but it is, it's a lot of like, looking at where the audience is, where we are as gamers. And, and just, you know, I think as a commercial artist, you're always trying to find that intersection between What are you good at? what are you passionate about and What is the audience ready for like what what did they want to spend money on?

and And you know, it takes some workshopping and you throw a lot of ideas around and you see what sticks. But with Graff, like really, really just like, you know, I think we're both really, really excited that we've found that sort of like, and I'm waking up every day excited to work on this. And I think, you know, I think there's some players out there that'll enjoy it too. I think there's some players out there that'll enjoy it too. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess, you know, you described it as like this kind of dark, cyberpunk horror kind of like survival game in a sense.

Is that something where, does your personal preference as gamers come into play where you go, man, you know, like, like for instance, I don't like sim games. Like I've made this very clear. It's just, my brain doesn't work that way. I don't want to work in my video games. I know people love sim games and that's no shade to anybody that loves them. But like for me, I want to scape ism. I don't want to work when I'm playing video games. So like, if I was a developer or, you know, thinking about, you know, starting a studio or something like that, the last thing I would want to do is be like, oh, let's work on this Sim game, guys,

because it's just not my style. So with the kind of vibe in the cyberpunk horror aspect, is that like, do you guys like that style? Is this like what you said, Mike, where it's like, hey, gamers are really into this right now. Obviously, we're a game studio. We want to make games that people want to play. And cyberpunk horror seems to be real popular with people right now.

I mean, we love this stuff. Yeah. Hey, Chris, yeah, I got to. Yeah, you grew up on like this, the big like the big cyberpunk or kind of anime vibes and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I think we can, you know, those who have been around for a little bit can remember what it was like when Akira started to like make its way sort of across the Pacific, you know, and another big touch point for me just growing uh, I saw alien when I was way too young. Um, and, uh, my parents didn't understand like, ah, horse, not

going to bother him at six years old. It's, it's star wars. It's like star wars, right? Oh, it just went out of her chest. Oh my gosh. Oh, it just went out of her chest. Oh my gosh. I literally watched that movie like hiding behind the couch and like just, just frozen.

And I was at a friend's house and the mother was like, I don't think you should be watching this. I think you need to stop. And I was just like, I cannot stop. Like I have to finish this. And you know, when something like that happens, it's just like, it really touches you, you know, it's like, it becomes either something that you never want to see again, or it becomes something that's like deeply like a part of like how you

experience things and kind of wanting to capture that feeling both for myself, but also for players that that feeling of like being that riveted by just, you know, an empty hallway, basically, because I know that it's not really empty. And so like, I think that was like, you know, when we were coming up with this, and we're kind of kicking around some ideas, that was one key element. And, and the other was this idea, we kind of tossed it off as we were trying

to get close to the idea, but we were just said, like, you are the ship of Theseus. And then we were like, and then like whoever, like the person we were pitching was like, that's back up, like, roll back, like, tell me about that. And so, and so, so those are the two big moments when we're like, as a team coming up with this. I love mythology. And so, and so, uh, so those are the two big moments when we're like as a team coming up with this. I love mythology. And so for people that don't know the ship of Theseus, it's the, the, the simple premise here is like, if you replace parts of something over time to where eventually the parts are

all new, is it still the old ship or is it something completely different at that point? So they look, they look so happy right now that I love mythology. It's one of my favorite subjects. They're like, we came on the right podcast right now. Hey, we're gaming nerds, man. What do you expect? Oh, that's awesome. So like when you, you know, you, you've got this, um, you've got this idea, you got this vibe on what you want to create.

Uh, you know, how do you come up to the next step to where, you know, you have to come up with the art style, the mechanics, you know, the story, like, where does that process lead? Like, is it just kind of an evolving ever flowing thing? It's like, they're just a vision from the get go. Like, how does that work? evolving, ever flowing thing is like just a vision from the get go. Like how does that work? Yeah. I mean, it's a lot of writing and drawing and painting and prototyping, uh, and it's kind of all happening at once. And, and this is that sort of like chaotic,

but also exhilarating, like initial inception of an idea, right? Like, cause Chris and I, like, we are backgrounds both in art. So, so a lot of our entry point. That explains this really awesome. Yeah, that's true. Thank you. So that's our entry point, right? Like we're trying to imagine it and paint it and figure out like, what are the vibes? Like, what are we conveying in the imagery of this world. We're also working you know with our writer Andrew McIntosh and just really trying to understand

like what are the core principles of this world, how does it work, what does the player know, you know what does the player not know? There's a lot that the player won't know going into this world. And we love that stuff, right? Like, it's just so exciting to have these vast mysteries to dig into. So yeah, it's a lot of exploration and seeing what. Does it flow? Is it like, do you get to this like, hey, here's the end point and it's laser focused from here to here and everything that we do is to reach this end point or is there more

of like that creative like, you know, hey, we have this goal in mind, but it's really going to kind of ebb and flow and kind of change and evolve over time. I guess that's, you know, again, as a gamer, I think we tend to think every studio knows exactly what they want to make, right? Like this is the vision you have and you are going to laser focus on that vision until the very end when it's like, okay, now this vision is a reality. I think as gamers, we think that I, I like, there's a part of me that goes, well, the reality is nothing goes according to plan. Yeah. Oh, okay. You know, and so it probably is.

We're here. Maybe this makes more sense. As this character's, our protagonist has advanced, you know what? This would be a lot cooler of an option. I just came up with it. Let's try this and run with it. Is that something that kind of happens throughout the kind of the ebbs

and the flows of the whole design process? There's something I said a lot on BattleTech and it's pretty reductive, but as games are bad until they're good, right? Like there's a real humility to sort of the creative process and what it takes to iterate until you've arrived at that great thing that sort of you like stands the test within the team of what's really gonna stick and be compelling for us. And then, yeah, I don't know. Chris is really good at sort of keeping that bird's eye vision on the game and sort of how it's resonating, right?

Because the one thing about art is you, you get into the making of the thing and, and whatever part you're making, you need the rest of the team to help keep you anchored to an honest perspective on the thing. Because you get into the nitty-gritty like I'm in a painting, like I will either love or hate that painting by the end of it, but neither of those emotions is an objective reaction to it. Yeah. Jim- So, okay, so this is a question and this might be putting you on the spot just a little bit but like one of the things we do is obviously we play games.

We talk about games. We do some game reviews on this podcast as well. And for us, one of the things that we always try to bring up early for a game is what we call the hook. And so to give you some ideas, recently, Astrobot last year came out. And as amazing as that game was the one thing. Yeah Like right now we're talking and it's like what is the one thing that stands out to you?

Like it's an incredible game from all around but like what stood out the most to you and we both said the audio in that Game is second to none, you know We recently just covered Kingdom Come Deliverance 2 which just released and you know as incredible as that game is, it's like, hey, what's the hook? And we kind of went, it's the immersion. I don't know that another game has done what they've done since Red Dead Redemption 2. When you play Red Dead 2, you feel like you're

a cowboy in the Old West. And with Kingdom Come, you feel like you're a medieval knight living in 1409 Bohemia or something like that. So, and I know it may be a little early for this, but in your mind, what is the hook for Graft as far as that? What is the thing that you think will stand out the most about the game?

Sure, so I think we touched on it a little bit already with that song, right? Which is just the combination of really scary, tense exploration and combat with some bigger questions and some real questions about identity and the choices that we make and how we sort of think about ourselves and literally in this case, but figuratively in our cases construct ourselves. We like to say like, you're gonna shoot first and ask existential questions later.

Yeah, it's a time-crashing thing. And that is kind of where. Yeah. It's time-crashing. But it is kind of what I would hope is the hook is, is, is, is like, when you, you know, a lot of times when we're working, we're thinking about what's, what's somebody going to say to me about this? Like, what do I want them to say back to me? Like, what do I, you know, what did I come away with? And it's like, wow, like it was so scary.

And then I just kept thinking about it. Like, and I kept thinking about the choices that I made and, and how it would have turned out differently. I I'm reminded of like the near series where it focuses on that almost like that deep thought, right? Like you're playing this game and of course the game is fun and it's got all these different aspects. But when you finish playing like near automata, it's the, you almost start to it's the, you

almost start to question like the, you know, the humanity or like you said, this existential like thinking, you know, and how that there's this like deeper underlying meaning to a lot of what you do in that game. And it really gets you thinking at that point, you know? And I mean, I think there's a reason that, you know, near the near series is so beloved by a lot of people because it's one of those games that you walk away from and you kind of go like, man, like this one hit hard. It keeps a little place in your heart. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So other words, good answer. That's what we liked it. That's a good one. That's a good one. Oh man. So I don't know if we can, if you, if you can't answer this question, that's fine. But do you guys have a tentative like target release date for,

for this game at this point? Not yet. No, it's too early for that. Not yet. Okay. And that's good because you know, it used to be, and I am very guilty of this, that when a game got announced and it had a release date set, Cyberpunk 2077 famously, I took off of work seven different times for that game. Because it kept getting delayed and it kept getting delayed

and I got really, really frustrated and I had to keep going back to my work and telling them why I didn't need this week off after all. I just want to play the game. I know, right? And so it's one of those things where I, you know, as a older, stubborn person, sometimes I like to think that gamers are starting to realize that it's ready when it's ready and that rushing something does not accomplish anything that anybody

wants at that point. So we always say, take your time at this point. You know, we really just want the best game imaginable at that point. So I want to switch gears a little bit, because something that you mentioned early on, Mike, and one of your memories for your history was this crowdfunding, this Kickstarter that you guys had for Shadowrun Returns. And, and it's, it's one of those things where you don't really hear about this anymore, you know?

Um, and it doesn't seem like it's a thing that really exists for like indie studios anymore. So, you know, is there, is there like a reason for that? Like, is it just that it's just not something that was ultimately successful? Was there like a situation that maybe kind of got people a little shy with crowdfunding or why is that not such a thing for indie studios anymore? Yeah, it's a good question. I think there's a lot of different factors going into that.

I think certainly timing was a big thing, right? Like Kickstarter first came on, I mean, I think it was either late 2011 or 2012. I think there was a lot of energy around this. It was very novel to have this degree of community involvement and early participation in funding a title. And there's a lot of stuff that the sort of AAA or kind of the, I guess, call it mainstream game industry hadn't really invested in certain IPs that still had a lot of strong, you know, core following like Chaperone, like BattleTech. of a strong core following like Shadowrun, like BattleTech. So I think there was this really exciting initial opportunity, like fresh way to fund games, some untapped titles

that hadn't been a Shadowrun game in a while, and, or a story-driven one anyways. And so we were able to ride that wave really grateful for that. Had a just amazing community rally behind both of those games. I do think as Kickstarter progressed over the years, like some of the initial novelty just wears off, right? That's that's part of the normal life cycle for a lot of these things. I do think that there are some high profile Kickstarters that ran into trouble for whatever reason, weren't able

to deliver on their rewards, or all of them. So I think there's a little bit more caution going into Kickstarters after a few years of measuring the results compared to, you know, the blue sky of kickstarters amazing, right? Yeah. And then, and then, you know, there's also, there's also unfortunately, just this like calibration of expectations around what it takes to make a game versus what is possible to raise on Kickstarter. And, you know, games are expensive to make. And I think that, and Kickstarter, you know, don't forget, like you're paying some fees into making the crowdfunding possible.

And then you're also paying to fulfill whatever rewards you've promised. Right. And, and if you, you know, we were so fortunate, Jordan, our founder has a long history, like he's made tabletop games, you know, he's done a lot of physical goods fulfillment over the years. But if you, if you're running a campaign, you know, back then, and you didn't have that experience, I do think there were some people that got, you know, overcommitted on the amount of, you know, backpacks or figurines or whatever they were going to send out.

So it all, you know, it's, it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's a interesting business like anything else. Oh, I'm sure. I mean, and we, we recently talked with, um, with an artist out of London and he was telling us just the amount of time that goes into animation and creating these things that people genuinely just don't understand what goes into this process. And so like, you know, with expectations that you mentioned, like, is there a difference with, you know, from the crowdfunding side to like standard kind of investing, like have just having a kind of overall investors versus, you know, crowdfunding, like, listen,

we're trying to make this game, we're doing the best we can, you know, like, what's the difference between the two as far as like the development of a game? It's, you know, I think there's always, there's always a client or there's always a relationship that you have, right? Like, so it's, it's more similar in more ways than, than one might expect. But with the community, I think that there's a lot of powerful energy and momentum that you can tap in that relationship. So at its best was like, we released the BattleTech backer beta, right?

And that was our first combat demo of the game. We put that out to all of our backers. And not only was that like a really exciting beat of our marketing and of our discoverability for the game, but we also got some great feedback, right? Like this was sort of like not public early access, but this was our version of being able to reach these players directly and see their experiences with the game and react to them. So I do think Kickstarter for us was very good to us in that way. And publisher relationships run the gamut, right? So you can have opportunities for that sort of thing in any business relationship. You can have challenges. Certainly with a democratized funding partner. There's a lot of different voices that may want different things.

But that can be tricky. And I would say that when you're crowdfunding, anytime somebody's giving you their money for something they want to return, your crowdfunding, their return is they want something fun that they were hoping to get back. And in a publisher relationship, it's a much more kind of, we'd like a profit, please. We'd like to give you a certain amount of money. And we'd like to get that back.

So it's a little bit different. And like Mike said, you're talking to a lot of different people and they can have like in a crowd funding situation and they can have deferring things and conflicting things that they want. Um, in a publishing situation, you, you have a smaller set of stakeholders, but they, you know, they, they want fun, they want fun as a sort of, uh, on the way to profit. Yeah. Okay. So I have to ask this question because again, you know,

we think we're gamers, we're lifelong gamers. We think like gamers. And when you talk about crowdfunding, the topic of star citizen, like that's the first thing that comes up with most gamers. And you know, it's the largest crowdfunding that's ever existed. You know, there are a lot of gamers,

whether they're right or wrong, they go, oh, well, this whole thing was a big scam. It's, you know, 10 plus years later, there's no game yet, you know, and then there are people that are actively playing Star Citizen. I have actually played it and things like that, that go, hey, you know, if you take your time, there is a game here.

They're developing some really crazy technology that I think will change the future of gaming with server meshing and some of that stuff. So, but as developers that have done the crowdfunding thing, like, what are your thoughts on that? I mean, I kind of hinted, did this make people shy? Because here's this thing that makes the news all the time

and people go, well, we still don't have a game. So no to crowdfunding. Or is it like, I mean, like you mentioned, Mike, development's expensive, man. So I just, I'd love to like, you know, and you know, you know, I just, I'd love it like a developer's perspective on like Star Citizen and that kind of whole ordeal with, you know, the amount of money that they've gotten from it,

but also the complexity of development and do those kind of align? Or is there maybe something there to gamers saying like, hey. I think their spaceships are really cool. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Like, I'll be honest, I haven't paid too close attention to that one.

At least not in several years. Yeah. Good fact, he said several years. That's your answer right there. Like seriously, those spaceships, I love a good spaceship. I've seen some concept artists I follow work on just some amazing stuff for that game. If it can get out there, like you said, and there's a game and there's this world to explore, that's awesome.

I know that they are shooting to release their Squadron of squadron 42, I think in 2026. Um, and I think that will tell the story. I think we can all conjecture and tell that kind of thing, but I think it's going to be one of these things where either a lot of people are going to say, we told you so, or they're going to come out and say, we told you so. You know, so awesome. Well, guys, listen, I know we're running low on time here. I, we, you know, we, we respect you guys time that you're, you're given to this episode and thank you so much for joining us. Let's, you know, we wanted to talk about what it's like to be an indie studio and kind of, you know, you guys

have what eight people, I think, uh, at hair brain right now, right. And, and you guys are two of those, right? So you have, uh, you know, six other guys that you work with. Right. So let's just do this. Let's have a fun little game. I'd like to ask some quick fire questions to you. And again, the mind of gamers, right? Where we, I think a lot of times we go, hey, we think this.

And we don't know if it's true or not. So it's almost like a little game of Mythbusters, if you will. So I want to, I'm going to make a statement, and then you guys can just say, yeah, no, or like, yeah, there's some truth to that, or something like that. So how about this one, which is indie studios are great because you have 100% creative freedom to do whatever

you want with your game? Asterisk. Asterisk. Yeah. you want with your game? Uh, asterisks. You know, I'll say part of it and hand it over, but, uh, like creative constraints are sometimes the best gift you can have in the process. So it's, it's like, even if that were the case, and you know, there's a heavy asterisks on it. It's like, that's not always the promised, like sort of, you know, golden, whatever vision of dev, like the, I think having a target and having a sort of box to work within, at least for me, has always been just a big part of the problem solving and the, you know, where the best ideas come from.

Yeah. And I would say like, it's definitely true. As long as you have the time that you're devoting to it is, you know, if you're a solo dev and you're working on it by yourself and you don't have any publishing money or anything like that, you have as much time, as much that you need and everything. As soon as you start to need buy-in from other people, including players, you start having to listen to what parts of your creative are coming through and what parts are maybe missing and what parts are,

are causing a lot of friction. So as long as it's just you and your machine and it's after hours and you're just cranking away, you have all the creative control that you, uh, that you want. And sometimes it really works like Stardew Valley. I think that's more or less story of Stardew Valley, right? Yeah.

Um, so, so yeah, so asterisk. That might be the answer for a lot of these. Okay. Well, question number two, as soon as you get funding from some investors or a company, everything changes and now you have to answer to the suits. Yeah, definitely asterisk. I mean, yeah. So there's so many different types of investment and types of publishers and even just the individual people involved in this industry, that all makes a big difference. But I'd say also any deal or agreement comes down to

the better goal alignment you have, the stronger that that relationship is. And I think that especially in the game industry of 2025, like if, when you're going into something like this, you should, should hopefully, like you should know, you know, you, you, you've already done a lot of this legwork to understand your audience, to reach players, you know, like we're talking to you guys like it's huge. And and go into that deal already sort of knowing, well, here's what's in it for us. Here's what's in it for you guys. And here's our shared goal. Like we know this audience, we can reach this audience and we want to give them a great game. this audience and we want to give them a great game. And, and you know, that's, that's a good, that's a good foundation. And then it, so I'd say it's like in success, it should not be that dramatic pivot that you were describing. Not that it couldn't happen or hasn't happened. Yeah. Yeah. What can happen is then things take a little bit too long or this game's not making

progress. And then people who are, you know, minding whether or not they've made a good investment and are wondering kind of what's going on with their money, you know, then you can sort of get into like, uh, questions about, about, well, like, what's going on? Like, you know, and then, so I think, I think that kind of, that ends up being, um, a place where you start to see that kind of like, well, we have some questions about the creative mostly, but usually like, where is it in, or, or why is it not fun? I would think a lot of, um, you know, and, and, you know, this is just a fan.

Like we said, we're, we're just gamers and we just are fans of video games. And I would think that the Kickstarter kind of funding type stuff or people, they're fans, they just want a good game. And that's why they're trying to fund it. That's why they're investing in it to where investors are looking for a monetary return. They want they want black and white spreadsheet money back. They don't care what it looks like as long as it sells. And so I think that's the difference is,

people like us and other people, a lot of times, a lot of times, just want just a genuine good game. I'd say most people working in, like everybody wants a good game. It's really hard to get to. Good game fails. And devil's in the details.

But nobody's like. All right, another quick one here, guys. This is another kind of myth thing here. So if you get a huge hit and you are an indie company or an indie studio and your game just blows up, you are set for life at that point. I mean, you know, eight guys at your studio, Graff just takes over the world.

You sell four million copies of it. What's matter? These guys are set. They're good to go. They're good to go. Let's do it. So I mean, you mentioned Stardew Valley. It's a single death.

That guy, he's gotta be swimming in piles of gold at this point, you know? So, but is that, and again, this is kind of like a myth thing that I think a lot of gamers have where, you know, it may be, you know, no, there's a lot of the, there's a lot of pieces of that pie that get divvied out to like steam, for instance, you know, and they take a cut and this guy takes a cut and you had to take a loan to do this and you had to do that. So is that like the dream and the goal or is that a little bit of a myth there? I think it's possible.

I think people do shoot the moon occasionally. I think we mentioned Sardy Valley, there's Bellatro. There's Manor Lords. There's some games that done really, really well. And if your team's small enough, like it's a big deal, like, uh, Intersloth and Among Us and stuff like that. Um, and I think sometimes the team's bigger or, um, or something happens with the business, I think, uh, there's, you know, there's quite a few documentaries

about kind of what kind of happened to to Zalm on the heels of Disco Elysium, where, like, a lot of revenue was generated. And it's not entirely clear necessarily, like how it all where it all went. So that can happen. But yeah, like, like Mike said, let's manifest, uh, let's manifest a big win. It's a lot like being a garage band. Yeah, no, yeah, that's a good, that's honestly a good thing. You know, that's a good example there. So I mean, as gamers, I can tell you that we want to manifest this as well,

because it's like, did we get an awesome game to play and talk about? And you know, all of our friends get hyped and you know, there's, there's nothing quite like that game that shocks the world. And then you, you, you get to be part of that conversation and that kind of wave. And you know, gamers love that stuff, man. You know, I mean, you know, you're at work, you're thinking about going home and playing this game. You're talking to your buddies about it. I mean, that's just a good time for everybody at that point. So, all right. Well, listen, guys,

this has been absolutely incredible. It's been a blast to just chat with both of you about this and get excited about graft and, and, you know, what you guys are doing as a studio and just kind of some of the insight that I think gamers don't really know. I mean, again, these are all things that we think we know or we question. We have no idea. But to hear it firsthand is honestly really entertaining, number one, but very educational as well. And so we're gonna go ahead and wrap up this episode,

but we have one more question for you guys before we do that. And that is, is there a game coming out in 2025 that you guys are super excited to play or that is at the top of like your height meter for a game that might be coming out this year? Oh, that's a good question. Got to like pull up my steam wish. GTA 6 might be coming out this year. I don't know.

GTA 6 is like, is, is going to be a big one for everybody. But I want to give you something that is really exciting. I think I'm curious because the visual design has been so amazing. And I'm going to mess up the name of it, but it's like 33 Claire Expedition. Oh, God. Oh, man. Oh, God. Oh, man. I'm with you, Chris. I'm with you, man. I'm so curious about this game. Yeah. So Ryan doesn't like turn based games. I hate turn based games.

Our partner John. It's so. Oh, that's the best answer. It does look cool. I'll say that. It does look cool. I'll just be waiting every five minutes to make a turn is all, you know. Oh, that's a good one. Right? To be less excited. You could have picked a better answer. That is so crazy. Oh, that's fantastic, man.

Mike's like, I've been making a game. Like, what do you mean? I know Mike's like, I don't have time to play games, man. I'm trying to make a game for everybody. I've been digging into like, oh, Resident Evil and Dead Space. Oh yeah. And just that sort of stuff these days. I'm honestly, I'm looking, I'm trying to... Yeah, gosh.

No, that's fine. I mean, we got the number one answer there. Josh and John are very- Expedition 33 was the best answer that we could have gotten the, we got the number one answer there. Josh. 33 was the best answer that was probably the best one you could have given for sure. And it's, that's, we did not, we did not preempt them. Like we did not tell them ahead of time. Oh my gosh, that's funny. Ryan is on his own Island. Cause he's like, I don't care about this game. And then it's like, John and I are both like super excited for it. So this is great. then it's like John and I are both like super excited for it. So this is great.

So awesome. Well guys, I mean, thank you so much for just giving us your time and taking the time to hop on our podcast and chat graft and chat, hair, brain studios and just, you know, be awesome and answer all our dumb questions and just hang out with us, man. This has really been awesome. Um, our listeners are going to love this. I guarantee you when this episode releases, there's going to be so much chatter about graft and go with list. You know, yeah, go, yeah. Wish that please go do it. It helps the devs out so much and it, and it says genuinely watch the trailer, look at the pictures, um,

read the stuff about it. This game looks so, so cool. So just if anything, if you guys love us, go wishlist this game. We're going to include a steam link in the episode description to make the listeners lives easy so that they can go wishlist this as well. I know that's one of the best things that gamers can do to kind of just show support and kind of get you guys up there on steam as well. So you can follow us on socials too. We be hair brained. If you have questions about graph, you know, uh, write us, you know, get in touch with us now. We'd love to hear from folks.

Oh, we'll be, we'll be following up for sure guys. So Mike, Chris, this has been awesome. Thank you guys so much. That's going to do it for this episode, everybody. Until next time, happy gaming. See ya. All right. Thanks for having us, guys.